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Redsfanao
02-20-2008, 08:08 PM
From Hal McCoy

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2008/02/20/fogg_coming_to_reds.html

When Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker and general manager Wayne Krivsky say the hunt continues for starting pitchers, they apparently mean it.

Free agent pitcher Josh Fogg told friends in Denver that he has agreed to a one-year $1 million contract with the Reds.

Both Baker and Krivsky were attending a team party Wednesday night and were not available, but it is known that the Reds have been trying to land the righthanded starting pitcher.

Fogg was 10-9 with a 4.38 earned run average in 29 starts last season for the National League champion Colorado Rockies. It has been reported that the Rockies were prepared to offer Fogg a one-year $5 million contract, but Fogg and his agent believed they could land a multi-year contract.

But that didnít happen and with timing running out and teams forming their squads at spring training, Fogg decided it was time to act and said he has agreed to sign the one-year deal with the Reds.

Most likely he must pass a physical before the Reds announce the signing.

Fogg is the second pitcher from Coloradoís staff who is a free agent to sign with the Reds. Earlier this month the Reds signed lefthander Jeremy Affeldt.

Affeldt was a relief specialist with the Rockies last year and the Reds had hopes of converting him back to a starting pitcher, which he was early in his career. But with Fogg, the Reds could strengthen their bullpen by placing Affeldt in it.

kaldaniels
02-20-2008, 08:17 PM
I can't recall specifics about Fogg from memory...but 1 year 1 mil for a guy who put up a 4.38 at Coors Field is a pretty good investment.

BuckeyeRed27
02-20-2008, 08:24 PM
He had a 4.94 last year in 165 innings.

Given its only $1m a year I don't hate this signing.

Prf15
02-20-2008, 08:24 PM
This is worth a shot, he did allow 23 homeruns in 165.2 innings last season.

HalMorrisRules
02-20-2008, 08:26 PM
I have to say, for the money it's hard to find anything wrong with this signing.

redhawk61
02-20-2008, 08:27 PM
Yeah good deal but I just don't see how he is going to beat out the likes of all the young guys

HeatherC1212
02-20-2008, 08:28 PM
That seems like a pretty fair deal for the Reds.

redhawk61
02-20-2008, 08:29 PM
Real question is who is off the 40 man

HalMorrisRules
02-20-2008, 08:31 PM
Real question is who is off the 40 man

Thats what I was just thinking. Thats what has stopped them :pray: from signing Lofton. Maybe Fogg signed a minor league deal?

redhawk61
02-20-2008, 08:35 PM
Maybe cause I don't see him out performing Volquez and Bailey in camp. But if he is on the ML roster then we can hope that it means bye-bye Mr. Stanton

AccordinglyReds
02-20-2008, 08:36 PM
Can't say I'm suprised, and can't say I am upset. 1yr at $1M isn't bad. Just kinda wonder who will be off the 40-man if this is a major league deal; and what the starting five looks like now....I wonder if they are planning on having Cueto in AAA or bullpen.

Dracodave
02-20-2008, 08:38 PM
I like the signing mainly for the money involved. It's a low risk move that could pay off.

redhawk61
02-20-2008, 08:39 PM
I see this as veteren insurance for if Bailey or Volquez fail and need more time down in AAA

CRedsLarkin11
02-20-2008, 09:04 PM
Not bad at all, I agree with most. 1 million in this market is a bargain. I really doubt we're gonna see the younger guys now though and I think that's the way they wanted it. Volquez/Bailey won't make the team together I would imagine. The best case scenario now has one of them impress and push Affeldt to the bullpen where he belongs.

NorrisHopper30
02-20-2008, 09:10 PM
Good signing IF he doesn't hold up the progress of the young-uns.

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 09:16 PM
I cant say im all that happy, although 1 million will make it not hurt so much

MotownRed
02-20-2008, 09:18 PM
Good signing and because we didn't trade for Blanton, we still have Bailey, Cueto, Votto etc

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 09:23 PM
Hope my worst nightmares dont come true and we start the year with the rotation of
Harang
Arroyo
Belisle
Affedlt
Fogg

:(

HalMorrisRules
02-20-2008, 09:26 PM
There is no way Belisle is ahead of Fogg in that pecking order.

BUTLER REDSFAN
02-20-2008, 09:27 PM
I can't recall specifics about Fogg from memory...but 1 year 1 mil for a guy who put up a 4.38 at Coors Field is a pretty good investment.

Does this mean you have a Foggy memory?

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 09:28 PM
There is no way Belisle is ahead of Fogg in that pecking order.

Id like to see your reasoning

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 09:30 PM
I can't recall specifics about Fogg from memory...but 1 year 1 mil for a guy who put up a 4.38 at Coors Field is a pretty good investment.

He put up a 4.94 not a .38

Blue
02-20-2008, 09:33 PM
I like the terms but as Bip said I'm a little worried that he, Affeldt, and Belisle are going to be in the rotation to start the season.

Although, with Krivsky's comments at the time of the Hamilton-Volquez trade, I'll be really surprised if both aren't in the big league rotation in April.

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 09:34 PM
Im changing my mind I officially hate this deal even if it was 1 million bucks

GoReds33
02-20-2008, 09:38 PM
I would have no problem with this move if I viewed him to be a minor league player that could come up in an injury situation. However, it is obdvious that the Reds view him to be in the rotation on Opening Day. I don't see how he makes the team any better. Still, what's the risk in giving a guy with a sub 5 ERA, that pitches in a very hitter friendly ballpark a shot?

Jim
02-20-2008, 09:43 PM
Real question is who is off the 40 man

Maybe we can try just two catchers this year????? :D

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 09:44 PM
I would have no problem with this move if I viewed him to be a minor league player that could come up in an injury situation. However, it is obdvious that the Reds view him to be in the rotation on Opening Day. I don't see how he makes the team any better. Still, what's the risk in giving a guy with a sub 5 ERA, that pitches in a very hitter friendly ballpark a shot?

Ones that home ERA was almost 6.

Nasty_Boy
02-20-2008, 09:45 PM
Does anyone think that maybe the Reds weren't completely honest with Affeldt? Maybe they have intentions of releasing Stanton using Affeldt primarily out of the pen. I don't know, just a thought.

Handofdeath
02-20-2008, 09:47 PM
Away from Coors Field last season his ERA was 4.15. The Reds got themselves the #2 starter from last season's NL Champion and they got him cheap. Very, very good move by the Reds. This pushes Belisle down to the #4 spot and your #5 is Jeremy Affeldt. This gives the Reds a solid rotation and the ability to not push Bailey, Volquez, or Cueto which is very important to the future of the franchise. Pitching depth is everything in MLB these days and I think this is a very smart move IMO.

GoReds33
02-20-2008, 09:49 PM
Ones that home ERA was almost 6."Well they can't all be winners can they?"-Bad Santa

Still, I like the move. He was offered five million to stay in Colorado. They must have seen something.

DTCromer
02-20-2008, 09:51 PM
Some of you guys are amazing. Who in the division is dominant right now? Who in the division is easily "favored" to win it? We're not the freaking Yankees. We're not going to get who we want, when we want. A million bucks for Josh Fogg? That's a great value.

It just amazes me that people on this board and the ORG seem to know more than Krivsky as i'm sure some will undoubtedly say they do. Quit your complaining and moaning.

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 09:51 PM
"Well they can't all be winners can they?"-Bad Santa

Still, I like the move. He was offered five million to stay in Colorado. They must have seen something.

I dont know why he didnt take the 5 million then.

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 09:54 PM
Some of you guys are amazing. Who in the division is dominant right now? Who in the division is easily "favored" to win it? We're not the freaking Yankees. We're not going to get who we want, when we want. A million bucks for Josh Fogg? That's a great value.

It just amazes me that people on this board and the ORG seem to know more than Krivsky as i'm sure some will undoubtedly say they do. Quit your complaining and moaning.

Id love to hear the reasoning for signing Fogg honestly.

BigRedMachine2
02-20-2008, 09:54 PM
I like the signing. If it doesnt work out we are only out 1 million.

gedred69
02-20-2008, 10:12 PM
There aren't enough innings at ST to give everybody's arm a good look see, under a variety of situations. This means the young guns are at Louisville to start the season, until somebody stumbles at the Major League level. Good tactic for a team that is close to the limit of what they want to spend. See if any Vet can help, if not then bring on the parade of promising young arms and jettison the Vets that ain't "got it".

757690
02-20-2008, 10:19 PM
Plenty of guys to move off of the 40. Smit, Hanigan, Drew Anderson, Livingston since he's injured.

The Reds needed depth at SP. He gives them that. It also allows them to keep the young guns in AAA at the start of the year. He also could become a long reliever. The Reds are very low in that area. Well worth the contract.

Fogg wanted a two year $8M contract and settled for a one year $1M. I wonder what this does to Lohse and Weaver's demands?

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 10:21 PM
Lots of youth getting pushed off this roster quickly

jlb1705
02-20-2008, 10:24 PM
If you're looking for value in this deal in what Fogg can bring to the table as a pitcher, then you're likely to be disappointed. Fogg is likely going to stink. The value this deal brings is that it fills out the rotation without having to give up one of the promising young players in a deal or bring them up too early and use up one of their inexpensive years on not-quite-ready production. I think that Volquez will be in the rotation, so I think this move would mean Affeldt goes to the pen - which is where he stands a chance of being somewhat effective.

I never liked the idea of parting with any of the Reds' top prospects to get a player like Blanton. I'd rather the Reds hold on to their promising players and build from within - even if that means playing for next year or the year after.

kaldaniels
02-20-2008, 10:26 PM
He put up a 4.94 not a .38

Just quoting from the lead post...I realize the 4.38 was his season stats...but it didn't register that way in my post. Sorry if misunderstood.

AdamDunn
02-20-2008, 10:28 PM
Kyle Lohse part 2... except a little worse.

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 10:31 PM
Just going off the stats in the lead post my friend.

thats fine i didnt mean anything by it really. The stat of 4.38 was correct in his 29 starts. He relieved in the last game of the year last year and gave up 5 er in 4 ip so thats why his era was a 4.94.

SMcGavin
02-20-2008, 10:35 PM
Well I saw the thread title and was upset. Josh Fogg is pretty bad, there's not really any way around it. But for only one million I can't be all that upset. Hopefully they are thinking Belisle-Volquez-Fogg for the back of the rotation with Affeldt in the pen.

My take on this is that if you thought the Reds were going to contend in 2008, this is a bad trade. It doesn't make us better (more depth though). But for me I think 2009 is the year, and this lets Bailey and Cueto sit in AAA until they are ready which I think is best for their development.

Finally if he got a $5M offer from Colorado why would he be coming here for $1M?

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 10:41 PM
I fear Fogg is terrible and stays on the roster all year more than anything

mlbfan30
02-20-2008, 10:43 PM
Fogg is a good #5 starter. He will pitch around 5 2/3 IP per start. He'll have an ERA around 5.00. He's a much better option than Affeldt, so at the very least it would push him back in the pen where he belongs.

If he's in the rotation, it means Bailey or Volquez are not. Belisle still should be in the rotation because he is better than Fogg. You cannot look at just ERA. Belisle has better K rates/BB rates/WHIP/GB rates/etc. He's younger, has more upside, and throws faster with more variation in speed.

Fogg is basically a junkballer. His similarity scores (that compare "stuff") are
1 Mark_Redman 97.4
2 Claudio_Vargas 97.3
3 Phil_Dumatrait 96.58
4 Oscar_Villarreal 96.46
5 C.C._Sabathia 95.87

That's not a great list. CC shows up because they throw the same set of pitches. However the speeds are very different. Phil Dumatrait is the closest comp in terms of speed of the pitches they throw. We all know how well he did.

One reason why this deal might not be bad is that Fogg should be able to be traded. If he does pitch somewhere around league average, he will have a lot of trade value. Loshe netted Maloney, but he also cost 5M. Bailey/Volquez should be 100% ready to fill in when he gets traded (Both should be in from the start). The signing allows some depth, which is nice. Overall its a good signing if the Reds view him as a #5 that pushes Affeldt out.

SMcGavin
02-20-2008, 10:59 PM
I fear Fogg is terrible and stays on the roster all year more than anything

Maybe but I wouldn't bet on it. Bailey reached the majors last year, Cueto and Maloney made it to AAA. There's no way that all three of them stay in AAA all year long. I actually trust WK more than most on this board. For one million he is just gonna buy a couple months for the kids to fully develop in AAA.

What I am worried about though is what could happen to Belisle. They probably signed Fogg to start the year in the rotation. They made the Volquez trade to put him in the rotation. When Affeldt was signed, they said something about him getting a rotation shot. If this trade moves Belisle to the bullpen then it is a disaster. But if it moves Affeldt to the bullpen, which I think it will, I don't really mind it.

Bip Roberts
02-20-2008, 11:03 PM
I trust WK pretty much as well but I still fear that if Fogg is bad he will stay on the roster all year.

Stephenk29
02-20-2008, 11:05 PM
Like everyone has said, "its hard to complain when its only a million bucks." He also adds depth and I think everyone is failing to realize you pretty much need six starters to go through a year. I doubt Fogg will ever slow the pace of the younger guys. I think he will be ok for the back end. No it doesn't make us all that much better, but we're still somewhat improved. All things considered I don't see how you can complain all that much. Cheap, one year deal. If it doesn't work out no big deal really. If he does he can get us some solid prospects in a trade.

mroby85
02-20-2008, 11:31 PM
i like it a lot, a 10 game winner is nothing to sneeze at, and quite frankly it shocks me that he would sign for only a million! nothing to lose in this scenario!

BucksandReds
02-20-2008, 11:56 PM
I would think that at that salary he has the word of the management that if we are not in contention then he will be traded to someone who is. He needs exposure to get a better deal. At worst we wasted 1 million and he gets benched. At best we win the WS with him as our #3-5. More than likely we trade him before the deadline and end up getting a prospect that we would be more than likely to pay the 1 million dollars for, alone.

AdamDunn
02-21-2008, 12:03 AM
i like it a lot, a 10 game winner is nothing to sneeze at, and quite frankly it shocks me that he would sign for only a million! nothing to lose in this scenario!

You're right. Nothing to lose. But 10 games won means nothing (especially with the Rockies offense). Milton won 14 games before coming to Cincinnati and everyone was saying it was a great move since we didn't have a 14 game winner on our staff at the time.

I'll bet Fogg gets designated for assignment or traded before the All-Star break.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 12:04 AM
I dont know if I believe this deal is as done as Hal is reporting. Something doesnt add up just yet.

fugowitribe
02-21-2008, 12:12 AM
It sounds to me like a lot of people on here seem to think this is a terrible move. Have we forgotten that we are fans for one of the worst pitching staffs in all of baseball. What is wrong with signing a guy who had a winning record and pitched in last year's World Series for only $1 million. As for all the talk of him taking valuable innings away from Bailey, Cueto, etc. If they were so ready for the Majors, why would we even need someone like Blanton (who a lot of people were calling for). Don't get me wrong, Fogg is not the savior to the Reds' problems, but he is a start. I would like to know what team in all of baseball who would not like to add an above 500 pitcher to the tail end of their staff...... Oh, and at least its not Eric Milton.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 12:19 AM
It sounds to me like a lot of people on here seem to think this is a terrible move. Have we forgotten that we are fans for one of the worst pitching staffs in all of baseball. What is wrong with signing a guy who had a winning record and pitched in last year's World Series for only $1 million. As for all the talk of him taking valuable innings away from Bailey, Cueto, etc. If they were so ready for the Majors, why would we even need someone like Blanton (who a lot of people were calling for). Don't get me wrong, Fogg is not the savior to the Reds' problems, but he is a start. I would like to know what team in all of baseball who would not like to add an above 500 pitcher to the tail end of their staff...... Oh, and at least its not Eric Milton.

apparently quite a few teams dont considering hes been unsigned all off season

OUReds
02-21-2008, 12:26 AM
Guess this means we're playing for next year then. Joy. :rolleyes:

757690
02-21-2008, 12:42 AM
I dont know why he didnt take the 5 million then.

Ask Jody Reed in 1994.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 01:05 AM
I keep flip flopping on my hatred and acceptance of this deal if it indeed happens

757690
02-21-2008, 01:22 AM
To put this in perspective, a major league teams averages 9 starters used throughout the year. Last year the Reds used ten, the Yankees used 15.
Right now, if they don't sign Fogg, the Reds have 9 players in camp who have major league experience as a starter. That includes Livingston who is injured, Affeldt, Shearn and Pettyjohn, who last started in 2001 and went 1-6.
So basically signing Fogg just makes sure that Pettyjohn et all will have less starts during the season. That is worth $1M.

Slyder
02-21-2008, 01:30 AM
meh. Didnt over pay, dont expect much from Fogg. Either way I can't like or dislike this.

He is given an oppertunity to compete for the rotation, if not then probably gets waived/traded to a team who gets hit hard in ST with injuries. Or goes to the pen. Maybe he could pull a Victor Zambrano and has a career year and we hose some team thats desperate at the deadline.

Theres too much hype behind Bailey and Cueto to have them fall victim to the "vet presence" getting in the way. If they are ready and the Reds are floundering guys like Fogg pack up and leave with the morning fog. Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez arent going to be kept at AAA b/c of Josh Fogg.

fewfirstchoice
02-21-2008, 03:52 AM
Volquez doesnt have any options left so he cant go to AAA.But can he start the season off in AAA.I know he cant start the season in Cincy then be optioned out.But can he start and AAA and be brought up.

jhiller21
02-21-2008, 05:32 AM
As much I dislike Fogg, a $1 million deal isn't bad...

He's insurance, and if he keeps Bailey and Cueto in AAA until they're ready then so be it.

GoReds33
02-21-2008, 07:21 AM
I dont know why he didnt take the 5 million then.He wanted a LTC. I guess he didn't realize nobody was going to give a LTC to somebody with a guy who has a 4.9 average ERA.

Redsnake
02-21-2008, 08:15 AM
I'm in favor of adding Affeldt and Fogg to go along with Volquez, Bailey, and Cuerto. I think this gives the Reds more options when Belisle falters.

FreelFanatic
02-21-2008, 09:23 AM
Volquez doesnt have any options left so he cant go to AAA.But can he start the season off in AAA.I know he cant start the season in Cincy then be optioned out.But can he start and AAA and be brought up.

Volquez has options.

From the Spring Training Notebook, sent out daily by Rob Butcher, only 10 players on the 40-man DON'T have any options left:

Bronson Arroyo, Juan Castro, Francisco Cordero, Ryan Freel, Scott Hatteberg, Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, David Ross, Javier Valentin and David Weathers

hebroncougar
02-21-2008, 09:27 AM
Ones that home ERA was almost 6.




2007 30 9 10 .474 171.7 181 89 80 21 55 97 12 4.19 1.375 30


There are Josh Fogg's neutralized stats from last year. I'll take them.

Snowmanlikeme
02-21-2008, 09:42 AM
Its a great deal that we signed Fogg...especially since its only for one million. Krivsky likes to give his young guns time to develop (we have seen this with Bailey) and Fogg is a reliable arm. A 4.9 era is better than the rookies would probably put up this year and he gives us depth. This move pretty much assures Affeldt will end up in the pen (where he belongs and will be a great option). Plus, if this is a minor league deal and we have to DFA anyone...ill be ecstatic if its Stanton.

RSNtransplant
02-21-2008, 09:56 AM
Another potential starter for 1 mil is great deal. However, I do not think Fogg will have an easy time pitching in GABP, since the addition of the humidor, Coors is not the HR friendly place it once was, plus they have a lot of room to track down flies in the OF and better defenders in the OF to do so. The move on its own is better than ones in the past though, virtually no risk for the potential reward of having the #5 SP, play .500 ball.

XU Lou
02-21-2008, 09:58 AM
Good deal for the Reds, it allows management to limit the innings of the kids for the long term and at a small price.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 10:06 AM
He wanted a LTC. I guess he didn't realize nobody was going to give a LTC to somebody with a guy who has a 4.9 average ERA.

That doesnt answer why he didnt take the 5 million from the rockies

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 10:13 AM
2007 30 9 10 .474 171.7 181 89 80 21 55 97 12 4.19 1.375 30


There are Josh Fogg's neutralized stats from last year. I'll take them.

I dont understand how they got to 4.19

TheBigLebowski
02-21-2008, 10:14 AM
For a million buxxxxx there's no reason to dislike the signing. This is a guy who won 10 games last year and pitched in the post-season. At worst, he could be moved to the pen.

Furthermore, he's a former University of Florida GATOR. Means he knows how to win.

smoke6
02-21-2008, 10:43 AM
For a million buxxxxx there's no reason to dislike the signing. This is a guy who won 10 games last year and pitched in the post-season. At worst, he could be moved to the pen.

Furthermore, he's a former University of Florida GATOR. Means he knows how to win.

I like the signing too, but I'm curious how pitching at U of F translates into being a winning major leauger. He's 60-60 in the bigs. :D

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 10:48 AM
Hes a winner :rolleyes:

BLEEDS
02-21-2008, 10:55 AM
This is a Great Signing.

EVEN IF Volquez, Homer and/or Cueto made the Majors out of ST, no way any of them can pitch 180+ innings. We need more starters, period. We'll use at least 10 SP's this year easily and probably more.

Fogg won two games in the Post-Season and earned the nickname "Dragon Slayer" for beating opposing teams #1 pitchers. He posted a 4.38 ERA as a starter, in Coors.

For $1M you'd have to be a complete moron not to view this as a good deal.

This allows us to let the clear winner of the young guys to make the Bigs out of ST, and let the others start in AAA, and then "beat down the door" to make the Bigs instead of throwing them in the deep end to start the season.

My guess at the opening day rotation:

Harang
Arroyo
Fogg
Belisle
Volquez

Homer and Cueto start in AAA.

Affeldt in the pen as the long reliever/lefty, especially with Bray sidelined it makes the most sense.

While it's not a Blanton, it's still a vet. Homer/Cueto can be brought up later if we are in the race, otherwise I'd keep their arb clock still. It's obvious 2009 is the year to go for it - assuming we extend Dunn. Otherwise, it's more of the same for the Reds, we'll keep Rebuilding and looking out 2-3 years in the future. At least we'll have a $12M/yr closer.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 11:07 AM
He posted a 5.97 in coors in 07 and a 6.26 in coors in 06 BTW

Caveman Techie
02-21-2008, 11:18 AM
The best thing about signing Fogg is it didn't cost us Cueto or one of the other young guns. The Reds future looks bright right now, and Fogg is just a filler till one of the younger guys steps up and claims his spot in the rotation.

bubbachunk
02-21-2008, 11:34 AM
The best thing about signing Fogg is it didn't cost us Cueto or one of the other young guns. The Reds future looks bright right now, and Fogg is just a filler till one of the younger guys steps up and claims his spot in the rotation.

well said

Hey Meat
02-21-2008, 11:48 AM
Real question is who is off the 40 man
My money would go on Castro.

Jack Burton
02-21-2008, 11:59 AM
If I remember right this guy pitched great at the end of the season last year. Good singing, should strengthen the staff.

Moosie52
02-21-2008, 12:09 PM
My money would go on Castro.

Oh come on. Castro is like a bad penny...er, maybe that's a gold penny. Anyway, he never goes away for good.

XU Lou
02-21-2008, 12:45 PM
This is a Great Signing.

EVEN IF Volquez, Homer and/or Cueto made the Majors out of ST, no way any of them can pitch 180+ innings. We need more starters, period. We'll use at least 10 SP's this year easily and probably more.

Fogg won two games in the Post-Season and earned the nickname "Dragon Slayer" for beating opposing teams #1 pitchers. He posted a 4.38 ERA as a starter, in Coors.

For $1M you'd have to be a complete moron not to view this as a good deal.

This allows us to let the clear winner of the young guys to make the Bigs out of ST, and let the others start in AAA, and then "beat down the door" to make the Bigs instead of throwing them in the deep end to start the season.

My guess at the opening day rotation:

Harang
Arroyo
Fogg
Belisle
Volquez

Homer and Cueto start in AAA.

Affeldt in the pen as the long reliever/lefty, especially with Bray sidelined it makes the most sense.

While it's not a Blanton, it's still a vet. Homer/Cueto can be brought up later if we are in the race, otherwise I'd keep their arb clock still. It's obvious 2009 is the year to go for it - assuming we extend Dunn. Otherwise, it's more of the same for the Reds, we'll keep Rebuilding and looking out 2-3 years in the future. At least we'll have a $12M/yr closer.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bleed

You are right on the mark on this, the Reds needed another body because none of the kids will/should pitch too many innings. I will take one exception, I think we ought to set the bar a little higher to be a "complete" moron.:D

Va Red Fan
02-21-2008, 12:46 PM
OK, I've been reading this site for a long time. I hate the negative remarks that always come.

I remember when WilyMo was dealt for the Sox seventh starter, guy named Arroyo. Several of the folks on here were ready to thrust themselves on their own sword. Now, WilyMo is still in "development" with the Sox and we have a solid #2 starter.

I remember when WK signed a Cleveland flop to make it four 2B on the roster. That move was seen as the most moronic move in the history of baseball - why add somebody else's problem when you have too many of your own? Well, that problem is our most solid infielder and the guy who may be the team leader for many years to come. Phillips is the new cornerstone.

Why sign David Ross? He's a bum! Well, that bum has been solid behind the plate and had one great year at the plate in the two he's been here.

Fogg gives us a pitcher who has big league experience. He was a big part of a team that overachieved last season and he was an overachiever on that squad. I hope that he overachieves for us this year. For the price, this is a great signing. Celebrate and have hope - this is a step forward.

I'm a pastor. Everybody loves to tell me how I should do my job even though they don't have a master's degree in ministry or 20 years of experience in the field. Therefore, I like to allow people to do their job. I think this is something we should applaud WK for accomplishing. This could be a key for our season. He are surely better with him.

I(heart)Freel
02-21-2008, 01:04 PM
To put this in perspective, a major league teams averages 9 starters used throughout the year. Last year the Reds used ten, the Yankees used 15.
Right now, if they don't sign Fogg, the Reds have 9 players in camp who have major league experience as a starter. That includes Livingston who is injured, Affeldt, Shearn and Pettyjohn, who last started in 2001 and went 1-6.
So basically signing Fogg just makes sure that Pettyjohn et all will have less starts during the season. That is worth $1M.

Bravo!

Even with a set rotation, you need depth to compete all season. This move will pay off in September, methinks.

Revering4Blue
02-21-2008, 01:28 PM
OK, I've been reading this site for a long time. I hate the negative remarks that always come.

I remember when WilyMo was dealt for the Sox seventh starter, guy named Arroyo. Several of the folks on here were ready to thrust themselves on their own sword. Now, WilyMo is still in "development" with the Sox and we have a solid #2 starter.

I remember when WK signed a Cleveland flop to make it four 2B on the roster. That move was seen as the most moronic move in the history of baseball - why add somebody else's problem when you have too many of your own? Well, that problem is our most solid infielder and the guy who may be the team leader for many years to come. Phillips is the new cornerstone.

Why sign David Ross? He's a bum! Well, that bum has been solid behind the plate and had one great year at the plate in the two he's been here.

Fogg gives us a pitcher who has big league experience. He was a big part of a team that overachieved last season and he was an overachiever on that squad. I hope that he overachieves for us this year. For the price, this is a great signing. Celebrate and have hope - this is a step forward.

I'm a pastor. Everybody loves to tell me how I should do my job even though they don't have a master's degree in ministry or 20 years of experience in the field. Therefore, I like to allow people to do their job. I think this is something we should applaud WK for accomplishing. This could be a key for our season. He are surely better with him.

Welcome to Redzone.

Excellent points.


While it's not a Blanton, it's still a vet. Homer/Cueto can be brought up later if we are in the race, otherwise I'd keep their arb clock still. It's obvious 2009 is the year to go for it - assuming we extend Dunn. Otherwise, it's more of the same for the Reds, we'll keep Rebuilding and looking out 2-3 years in the future. At least we'll have a $12M/yr closer.

Spot-on. If the Reds are out of the race, Fogg can be dealt.
Loshe netted Maloney. Fogg may net more than Pile O' Cash in return.

Newman4
02-21-2008, 01:39 PM
With all the talk of Lieber, Livan, Colon, etc. to get someone who puts up similar numbers (or in many cases better) for 1 million is a pretty solid move. Fogg won't win the Cy Young, but it's hard to criticize for the price. I agree with BLEEDS rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, Fogg and Volquez. Homer and Cueto at AAA. Affledt in the pen. Pretty impressive WK. Now get us another RH bat off the bench and we're talking.

Carin4Narron
02-21-2008, 01:40 PM
The Fogg signing hasn't been confirmed yet as far I can see. The Reds are so darn secretive about player signinings,injuries seem to be worse than they first say, etc. It's a fricking joke!
I am one fed up fan!

smoke6
02-21-2008, 01:40 PM
OK, I've been reading this site for a long time. I hate the negative remarks that always come.

I remember when WilyMo was dealt for the Sox seventh starter, guy named Arroyo. Several of the folks on here were ready to thrust themselves on their own sword. Now, WilyMo is still in "development" with the Sox and we have a solid #2 starter.

I remember when WK signed a Cleveland flop to make it four 2B on the roster. That move was seen as the most moronic move in the history of baseball - why add somebody else's problem when you have too many of your own? Well, that problem is our most solid infielder and the guy who may be the team leader for many years to come. Phillips is the new cornerstone.

Why sign David Ross? He's a bum! Well, that bum has been solid behind the plate and had one great year at the plate in the two he's been here.

Fogg gives us a pitcher who has big league experience. He was a big part of a team that overachieved last season and he was an overachiever on that squad. I hope that he overachieves for us this year. For the price, this is a great signing. Celebrate and have hope - this is a step forward.

I'm a pastor. Everybody loves to tell me how I should do my job even though they don't have a master's degree in ministry or 20 years of experience in the field. Therefore, I like to allow people to do their job. I think this is something we should applaud WK for accomplishing. This could be a key for our season. He are surely better with him.

Ummmm....

Wily Mo plays for the NATIONALS
and
David Ross hit .203 last year :D

BTW...Welcome to the board.

AmarilloRed
02-21-2008, 01:43 PM
SARASOTA, Fla. -- The Reds could be close to adding veteran Josh Fogg to their rotation.

The Rocky Mountain News reported that Fogg and the club are near to agreeing on a one-year, $1 million contract.

The Reds have not confirmed the signing.

"I haven't talked to [general manager] Wayne [Krivsky] this morning," Reds manager Dusty Baker said Thursday. "He told me he was on the phone most of the day [Wednesday] trying to do something."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080221&content_id=2382357&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin


It doesn't sound as if he is a Red just yet. Fogg will simply give the Reds an option if the kids aren't ready. Neither he nor Affeldt is guaranteed a rotation spot, and it is entirely possible they could be put in the bullpen or sent to AAA if necessary.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 01:44 PM
From Fay

Fogg update

Josh Fogg has entered the building. I believe he's getting his physical now. The Reds will announced the signing if he passes it.

FreelFanatic
02-21-2008, 01:48 PM
From Fay

It would be good to start putting links on these for credit:

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

FreelFanatic
02-21-2008, 01:48 PM
^ Sorry, posted before you re-edited it.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 01:50 PM
^ Sorry, posted before you re-edited it.

Dont get that tone with me MR! :p:

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 02:16 PM
From Fay:

Fogg official

Josh Fogg is officially in the fold. The Reds signed him to a one-year deal Thursday afternoon.

Talks had been going on for some time.

"This is the place I want to be," Fogg said. "I know some guys here. I played with David Ross in college. I thought this was best chance I had to help a club."

Fogg, a 31-year-old right-hander, was 10-9 with 4.94 ERA last year with Colorado. It was the fifth time in six years that he's won at least 10 games.

He'll compete for a spot in the rotation -- emphasis on compete. Fogg is in the group with Homer Bailey, Edinson Volquez, Johnny Cueto, Matt Maloney and Jeremy Affeldt competing for the two open spots in the rotation.

"He's the most experienced of the guys competing," Wayne Krivsky said. "we feel like it's a good addition."

Fogg, who turned down $5 million from the Rockies, signed for $1 million.

"The offseason didn't go like a lot of free agents planned," Fogg said.

Its a done deal

GoReds33
02-21-2008, 02:21 PM
That doesnt answer why he didnt take the 5 million from the rockiesYes it does. The reason he didn't take five million was because he wanted a long term contract. I guess they wern't willing to give it to him.

It's possible that they pulled their offer off the table when he went to free agency.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 02:24 PM
Yes it does. The reason he didn't take five million was because he wanted a long term contract. I guess they wern't willing to give it to him.

It's possible that they pulled their offer off the table when he went to free agency.

If they pulled the offer it explains it yes, but just because he wanted a long term deal didnt explain why he took our deal over what the rockies were offering.

BLEEDS
02-21-2008, 02:25 PM
Bleed

You are right on the mark on this, the Reds needed another body because none of the kids will/should pitch too many innings. I will take one exception, I think we ought to set the bar a little higher to be a "complete" moron.:D

You are right - or is it "lower" the bar... ;)

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 02:35 PM
Livingston to 60-day DL to make the room on the roster

GoReds33
02-21-2008, 02:38 PM
Livingston to 60-day DL to make the room on the rosterHow about Castro?

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 03:30 PM
How about Castro?

still on the roster

GoReds33
02-21-2008, 03:52 PM
still on the rosterSorry, I was hoping you were just guessing with Livingston. I had heard that Castro's arm may not be ready yet. Appetantly it is. Thanks.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 04:07 PM
Sorry, I was hoping you were just guessing with Livingston. I had heard that Castro's arm may not be ready yet. Appetantly it is. Thanks.

Nah Fay updated his Fogg post with it saying Livingston went to the 60 day

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 04:10 PM
Foggs 1st pictures as a red
http://thep03.sytes.net/reds_gallery/gal/2008/Spring%20Training/February/February%2021st/05.jpg
http://thep03.sytes.net/reds_gallery/gal/2008/Spring%20Training/February/February%2021st/15.jpg
http://thep03.sytes.net/reds_gallery/gal/2008/Spring%20Training/February/February%2021st/12.jpg

schmidty622
02-21-2008, 04:58 PM
At least we know there will be a market for him around the trade deadline if the reds tank this year.

There would probably be a ton of teams looking at Fogg at the deadline if he pitches decently the first half and the reds have no need for him. If nothing else he could help us net a bigger fish or another prospect.

Va Red Fan
02-21-2008, 05:07 PM
Sorry, forgot Bowden got WillyMo, but I stand by my Ross statement. He hit horribly last year, but had a good year behind the dish. He hit well two years ago. I think he still has potential to be a good everyday catcher.
WillyMo is still a project. Phillips is a budding superstar and Ross was a good find. I hope Fogg follows that path. We need to think more positively on this board.

Va Red Fan
02-21-2008, 05:12 PM
So what does the rotation look like?

Harang
Arroyo
Fogg
Belisle
Vol/Cue/Bailey/Affelt?

Is there a clear front runner for the final spot? Are Fogg and Belisle solid?

_Sir_Charles_
02-21-2008, 05:25 PM
Fogg and Belisle are solid based on LAST year's performance. But NEITHER are sure of a spot. Not with the competition in this year's ST camp. Only Harangatang & Bronson are assured of a spot right now. But yeah, Matt & Josh are the front-runners for the 3/4 spots.

SMcGavin
02-21-2008, 05:56 PM
For $1M you'd have to be a complete moron not to view this as a good deal.


That's a pretty ridiculous statement. For reasons I stated earlier I don't have a problem with this deal, but I completely understand the viewpoint of someone who does. Josh Fogg is a bad pitcher. If his ERA as a Red is under 5 I'll be pleasantly surprised. If you think one of Bailey/Cueto/Maloney/Affeldt could do better than him, and it's certainly possible that they could, then you've got a reason to dislike this trade.

Now like I said I don't mind it since I want Bailey/Cueto/Maloney in AAA and Affeldt in the pen. As long as we use him correctly (e.g. as soon as the kids are ready he's out of the rotation) I think it's a smart move. But there's a pretty easy reason to dislike the signing - it probably doesn't make the Reds better.

Stephenk29
02-21-2008, 05:57 PM
Several articles say Fogg has to battle for a rotation spot. You guys can sleep easier now!

I see

Harang
Arroyo
Belisle/Affeldt/Fogg
Belisle/Affeldt/Fogg/Bailey/Volquez
Belisle/Affeldt/Fogg/Bailey/Volquez/Cueto/Maloney

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 06:33 PM
I see zero of our young guys in the rotation. I also see next year people complaining about how little experience our young guys have and how we need to bring in more proven (no matter how bad they are) vets to hold down the fort.

GoReds33
02-21-2008, 06:40 PM
I see zero of our young guys in the rotation. I also see next year people complaining about how little experience our young guys have and how we need to bring in more proven (no matter how bad they are) vets to hold down the fort.You don't see Volquez in the rotation come Opening day? He's got quite a bit of experience for a pitcher his age. Though, like the rest of the young players he may not be ready for the bigs, I think that they have to put atleast one in the rotation.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 06:45 PM
You don't see Volquez in the rotation come Opening day? He's got quite a bit of experience for a pitcher his age. Though, like the rest of the young players he may not be ready for the bigs, I think that they have to put atleast one in the rotation.

With the addition of Fogg it does have me a bit worried that they start the year with none of the youngsters in there and they get zero time in the majors next year even if they are knocking down the doors.

Even if our young starters get time in the majors next year its going to knock our young relievers out of the staff more than likely

GoReds33
02-21-2008, 07:04 PM
With the addition of Fogg it does have me a bit worried that they start the year with none of the youngsters in there and they get zero time in the majors next year even if they are knocking down the doors.

Even if our young starters get time in the majors next year its going to knock our young relievers out of the staff more than likelyI see what you're saying, but I think that Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez will get a good amount of innings this year, in the rotation, or out of the bullpen. I think that Bailey will tear up AAA if he's sent there, and it's probably the same for Cueto. There's no way you leave them down if they are knocking down the door.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 07:13 PM
I see what you're saying, but I think that Bailey, Cueto, and Volquez will get a good amount of innings this year, in the rotation, or out of the bullpen. I think that Bailey will tear up AAA if he's sent there, and it's probably the same for Cueto. There's no way you leave them down if they are knocking down the door.

Yea if they are knocking the door down we will need Fogg to be terrible to get taken out of the rotation. If afraid even if hes posting a 5.60 era they wont bring up anyone. I hope I'm wrong but even if they bring Bailey or Cueto up if they are tearing up AAA it just knocks someone with options out of bullpen.

Heck maybe we are lucky and it wont be so complicated as I think its going to be if it comes to that.

Hondo
02-21-2008, 08:09 PM
Yeah, Josh Fogg's of the World will have this team in Playoffs...

Thanks

fugowitribe
02-21-2008, 09:36 PM
What happens when Bailey and Cueto both throw well in AAA, and Fogg is around 500 on the season and the reds are still in contention, but Belisle has a terrible season. Do/Can you move Belisle to the Pen or down to AAA and try to make a 1/2 season playoff run with two guys that have little experience at the big league level?

I(heart)Freel
02-21-2008, 09:48 PM
If the Reds go through May with the same 5 starters as on opening day, I'll eat my hat. And I mean the one with the fake Bronson Arroyo hair attached.

Fogg = depth. Nothing more. It's a good thing.

Signing someone like Fogg means there's a zero percent chance of seeing this year's Josias Manzanillo.

Bip Roberts
02-21-2008, 09:51 PM
If the Reds go through May with the same 5 starters as on opening day, I'll eat my hat. And I mean the one with the fake Bronson Arroyo hair attached.

Fogg = depth. Nothing more. It's a good thing.

Signing someone like Fogg means there's a zero percent chance of seeing this year's Josias Manzanillo.

They arent going to see the same 5 starters every time but unless there is a major injury they will not be bringing our young guys up for 1 or 2 starts just to send them back down a couple days later.

AmarilloRed
02-22-2008, 12:40 AM
Fogg and Belisle are solid based on LAST year's performance. But NEITHER are sure of a spot. Not with the competition in this year's ST camp. Only Harangatang & Bronson are assured of a spot right now. But yeah, Matt & Josh are the front-runners for the 3/4 spots.

Belisle can be said to be a front-runner based on last year's experience in the rotation. Fogg and Affeldt will be competing for rotation spots along with the kids, and the best starters will make up the back-end of the rotation.

fugowitribe
02-22-2008, 01:55 AM
Am I reading too much into the line "if one of our younger guys isn't ready, Fogg will give them time"(Dusty Baker) by thinking that this means Dusty is saying the spots are for the young guns to lose.

XU Lou
02-22-2008, 08:07 AM
Am I reading too much into the line "if one of our younger guys isn't ready, Fogg will give them time"(Dusty Baker) by thinking that this means Dusty is saying the spots are for the young guns to lose.

I think/hope what Dusty meant is that the spots are there for the kids when they are ready but with Fogg (depth) we don't have to push them. As has been said before, we need Fogg to eat some innings so the kids aren't overworked.

The key is knowing when to promote the kids to the rotation.

I expect Affeldt and Fogg will be out of the rotation by July/August depending on the year they are having and where the Reds are in the pennant chase.

The second half of 2008 should be a precursor to 2009's rotation unless some of the kids need to be shut down. You may see Maloney about that time as well.

roby
02-22-2008, 09:23 AM
I vaguely remember Wayne saying something about "when Bailey is brought up it will be to stay." I wonder if that still holds true?

SMcGavin
02-22-2008, 12:17 PM
Am I reading too much into the line "if one of our younger guys isn't ready, Fogg will give them time"(Dusty Baker) by thinking that this means Dusty is saying the spots are for the young guns to lose.

Did Dusty really say that? Because if he did my opinion on this signing greatly improved. Fogg might have a 5.50 ERA but that's better than forcing up one of the kids who isn't ready or giving starts to someone like Shearn. I don't like Fogg penciled into the rotation but I really like him as cheap depth.

wlf WV
02-22-2008, 12:45 PM
Fogg pitched for the winner of NLB pennant,adds even more competition for SPs,games are based on competition,only stormcrows can view this signing as a negative.Having said this,Fogg as a starter reminds me of Weathers,every pitch keeps you on the edge of your seat.

Bip Roberts
02-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Is your spacebar broken?

wlf WV
02-22-2008, 01:18 PM
Just my grammar .

captainmorgan07
02-22-2008, 02:17 PM
not a bad pickup here. Fogg provides insurance if one of the young guys isn't ready or there's an injury. I see Affedlt as heading to the bullpen after the fogg pickup. Wayne knows he is a better reliever than starter.

George Foster
02-23-2008, 10:49 PM
I did not read all 125 post in this thread, so if this was mentioned before, I'm sorry, but Fogg turned down a one year deal with the Rockies for 5 million before Christmas.

Thanks for the advice Mr. Agent!!! What a bad move! Try explaining that to your wife. You go from 3.5 million after taxes, to about 700K after taxes.

Fogg's loss is our gain. WOW I could not sleep at night knowing I left that much money on the table.

reds2221
02-24-2008, 08:43 AM
I did not read all 125 post in this thread, so if this was mentioned before, I'm sorry, but Fogg turned down a one year deal with the Rockies for 5 million before Christmas.

Thanks for the advice Mr. Agent!!! What a bad move! Try explaining that to your wife. You go from 3.5 million after taxes, to about 700K after taxes.

Fogg's loss is our gain. WOW I could not sleep at night knowing I left that much money on the table.


looking at what he passed up and what we gave him, I love krivsky more and more

OSUredsFAN
02-24-2008, 08:48 AM
Is there still a chance we go after Blanton???

Caveman Techie
02-24-2008, 09:02 AM
Is there still a chance we go after Blanton???

I don't think so. I look at Fogg as the backup plan to Blanton. Once it became apparent that the A's wanted more than Krivsky was willing to give up for Blanton, Fogg stepped in to the picture.

OSUredsFAN
02-24-2008, 09:16 AM
I don't think so. I look at Fogg as the backup plan to Blanton. Once it became apparent that the A's wanted more than Krivsky was willing to give up for Blanton, Fogg stepped in to the picture.

True, but what about the idea of Fogg being a replacemment for one of our young arms that the A's would need in return.

Caveman Techie
02-24-2008, 10:11 AM
I don't see that at all. Maybe if they would have signed Fogg to a long-term contract, but with just a one year contract he is no one's replacement, he's filler.

jmac
02-24-2008, 01:09 PM
True, but what about the idea of Fogg being a replacemment for one of our young arms that the A's would need in return.

It would be nice to think so but I would say no chance at all.
I mean I wouldnt take Fogg ( with 1 year contract nonetheless) over a young Bailey/Cueto/ or even Maloney if I were the A's.