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ChatterRed
02-23-2008, 04:03 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AqkblJenIBGKfBTWjzzzmJARvLYF?slug=jp-redsbaker022108&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Baker slow to warm to young Reds
By Jeff Passan, Yahoo! Sports
Feb 21, 6:29 pm EST

SARASOTA, Fla. – The response this spring has been almost Pavlovian. Every time the name of Jay Bruce surfaces in conversation – and with Bruce passing sliced bread and quickly approaching ice cream as the best thing ever in the prospect-mad baseball world, this happens quite often – Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker brings up another player: Norris Hopper.

Baker likes Hopper, who is regarded throughout the game as a nice little player. That is baseball’s version of damning with faint praise, and considering that in the 3,753 at-bats as a professional Hopper has hit four home runs, it might even be kind. Bruce, on the other hand, is this year’s can’t-miss kid – a 6-foot-3, 210-pound power-hitting, BB-throwing, gilded-gloved center fielder with a track record so impressive that, well, any praise thrown his way ain’t faint.

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So all eyes are converging on Baker. This is not new. He managed Barry Bonds, or at least was manager for Bonds’ first 10 seasons in San Francisco. He managed the Chicago Cubs through Steve Bartman and the three-year implosion that followed. Joining a team with as much young talent as Cincinnati – in addition to Bruce, the Reds have developed first baseman Joey Votto and pitchers Johnny Cueto and Homer Bailey – means striking a balance between coddling and pushing.

“I know what I’ve got to do,” Baker said Thursday, and while his .527 career winning percentage inspires confidence, his track record with young players is spotty enough to cause concern.

In his 10 seasons with the Giants, Baker did not develop a single everyday player. The closest was Rich Aurilia. Three starting pitchers from the Giants’ organization stuck: Kirk Rueter, Russ Ortiz and Shawn Estes.

With the Cubs, Baker oversaw the destruction of Mark Prior and Kerry Wood’s careers. He trotted them out for 130-pitch starts. Baker isn’t big into statistics, so he probably wasn’t aware that comprehensive studies on pitch counts show 130 is a young pitcher’s equivalent to a national threat level of red.

Still, Baker met the suggestion that he might give Bruce or Cueto or even Votto more time at Triple-A with some derision.

“Who says they need to be eased in?” Baker said. “I wasn’t eased in. Junior wasn’t eased in. A whole bunch of guys weren’t eased in. A lot of it has to do with need.”

Hmmm. The Reds need a center fielder, the indomitable Norris Hopper or Ryan Freel notwithstanding. They could use some pop at first base (though Scott Hatteberg, the 38-year-old incumbent, did slug .474 last season). Certainly Cueto, the 22-year-old Dominican who the Reds now value higher than Bailey, is a better option than journeyman Josh Fogg, to whom Cincinnati committed $1 million Thursday.

The Reds have enough of a veteran presence – with Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn surrounding Bruce in the outfield, with Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo preceding Cueto in the rotation, with Brandon Phillips and Edwin Encarnacion making Votto’s job easy – to steady the Reds’ equilibrium.

“Yeah,” Baker said, “but what if you say, ‘Go play, kid,’ and he’s not ready to play winning baseball? Is it OK to overlook that? I don’t know.”

Nor does Bruce. Last spring, the Reds shipped him to high Class-A from spring training, so to be here – to be this close – tickles him. With Sarasota, he hit .325 and slugged almost .600. In a two-week stopover at Double-A, Bruce matched Hopper’s career home run total. And then in a 187-at-bat cameo with Triple-A Louisville, Bruce hit 11 home runs.

“Don’t believe the hype,” Bruce said.

He chuckled.

“Especially when it’s your own,” he said. “I need to be me. Some people aren’t going to like it. Some people are. But the bottom line is, it’s what I got and what I am, and it’s all I can do.”

To see Bruce traverse the clubhouse is stunning. Not even 21 years old, he chats with young and old, black, Latino and white. He tells jokes, offers praise, seeks advice. He’s a baby face and old soul. In two years, Bruce ought to be the centerpiece of this franchise in every which way, and he seems to recognize it.

Because already, just two days into full-squad workouts, Bruce has taken it upon himself to glom as much wisdom as he can from Griffey, whom he grew up idolizing. Griffey smiles politely and dispenses it, appreciating Bruce’s complete lack of pretense while snickering at it too.

“Everything here is going in the right direction,” Bruce said. “I think we’re going to surprise a lot of people this year. Hopefully, I’m here to help that out.

“I haven’t interacted too much with (Baker) yet. But I feel like he’s a fair person. I don’t think he cares who you are. If you’re here, you’ll get a legitimate shot, and that’s all you can ask for in this game.”

He’ll get his shot. The Reds didn’t trade the productive and inspiring Josh Hamilton to Texas for Edinson Volquez this offseason because they expected Hopper to take over. They didn’t sign closer Francisco Cordero to a four-year, $46 million deal because they figured he’d finish out the odd victory now and again.

Cincinnati expects to win. The National League Central is ripe. St. Louis is down, Houston rebuilding in the worst way possible and Pittsburgh eternally doomed. Chicago and Milwaukee are Cincinnati’s competition, and neither distinguished itself last season.

Of course, the Reds went 72-90, and aside from the Cordero signing and Volquez trade, look about the same. They need something more, and it’s there, with Bruce and Votto, Cueto and Bailey.

The bell is ringing. Cincinnati can only hope Baker’s answer isn’t so Pavlovian.

Not sure if I'm allowed to copy and paste the article. If I'm not, please delete it.

Bip Roberts
02-23-2008, 10:29 AM
You are allowed.

Is it me or is that headline really deceiving? The whole article is written with a hatred of Dusty that I feel no matter what he says they will cherry pick quotes to prove their point. Ive read pretty much every quote by Dusty and I cant say many managers would say much different.

jmac
02-23-2008, 11:14 AM
You are allowed.

Is it me or is that headline really deceiving? The whole article is written with a hatred of Dusty that I feel no matter what he says they will cherry pick quotes to prove their point. Ive read pretty much every quote by Dusty and I cant say many managers would say much different.

True.
No manager would say the job belongs to Bruce, Votto, Bailey/Cueto etc. Plus, I feel like alot of stuff was covered when Dusty came on board concerning pitchcounts, youngsters and stuff like that.
I believe it is Dusty's call but I look for him to be open minded.

LexingtonLegend
02-23-2008, 12:06 PM
from what i can tell Baker prefers experience, especially in the leadoff position. Obviously this is why we've heard Lofton and Patterson popping up as possible signs. I think he also prefers someone that fits the mold of your typical leadoff guy, think big on base %. Those things lead me to believe we will see Hopper over Freel in that spot, with Jay Bruce having to wait until an injury pops up to make his debut. I'd love to see Bruce in centerfield on opening day, but I don't get the vibe Dusty is wanting to go that way.

Snowmanlikeme
02-23-2008, 04:14 PM
I have no problem with Hopper getting the nod. He proved himself last year IN THE BIGS. I love Bruce--dont get me wrong. But why rush him? If Bruce kills it during Spring Training--much like Hamilton did last year...then fine...let him start. I wont be worried until Baker comes out and says that he wants Freel to be the opening day starter.

Bip Roberts
02-23-2008, 05:05 PM
Id be much more comfortable with Freel of 04-06 leading off for this team than hoping Hopper can continue his high average.

Boston Red
02-23-2008, 05:22 PM
Unless Bruce really is a can't-miss guy who's goign to come up and hit 25 HRs and not make a bunch of rookie mistakes that are going to overshadow the HRs, I'd prefer to start with Hopper out there and make him prove that his .330+ hitting is a fluke.

gedred69
02-23-2008, 05:46 PM
from what i can tell Baker prefers experience, especially in the leadoff position. Obviously this is why we've heard Lofton and Patterson popping up as possible signs. I think he also prefers someone that fits the mold of your typical leadoff guy, think big on base %. Those things lead me to believe we will see Hopper over Freel in that spot, with Jay Bruce having to wait until an injury pops up to make his debut. I'd love to see Bruce in centerfield on opening day, but I don't get the vibe Dusty is wanting to go that way.

Baker is quoted as saying OBP is over-rated. While his justification lends itself to getting on base, he says scoring is more important. That's where a Hopper or Freel are of more importance. Their speed is potentially worth a few runs. I agree with your view about Bruce unless he is so good in ST that the Reds decide they just gotta' try him.

Natty Redlocks
02-23-2008, 06:05 PM
I don't think Bruce is seriously in the equation at this point. I believe he is the heir apparent to Griffey in right (or Griffey is a stopgap for Bruce, however you want to look at it). CF/ leadoff right now is a competition between Hopper and Freel, although I have no doubt Dusty would love to see one of them turn into Juan Pierre or at least Kenny Lofton. If the Reds have their way, Bruce will spend the year tearing it up in Louisville and get a September callup, like Votto last year.

Or I could be way off, it happens.

Bip Roberts
02-23-2008, 06:11 PM
Turn into Juan Pierre? They would have to break both their arms and legs to put up Pierre numbers

Natty Redlocks
02-23-2008, 06:39 PM
Turn into Juan Pierre? They would have to break both their arms and legs to put up Pierre numbers

By "turn into" I mean literally, like a Freel-and-Stanton-for-Pierre trade.

And Norris Hopper IS the right-handed yang to Juan Pierre's yin.

mlbfan30
02-23-2008, 06:52 PM
PA R 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS
595 78 41 4 26 87 51 142 10 4

This is his projected statline from Baseball Prospectus.
According to VORP, Bruce will be the 3rd best CF in baseball. Better than

Young
Upton
Jones
Cameron
Granderson
Hunter

The only CF better than Bruce are
Beltran
Sizemore

Hopper's VORP is worse than these players....

Beltran
Sizemore
Pence (didn't include him earlier since he's now playing RF)
Bruce
Young
Upton
Jones
Cameron
Granderson
Hunter
Hall
Rowand
Dukes
Hamilton
Pie
Jones
Ankiel
Rasmus
Upton
Wells
Maybin
Damon
Ross
Matthews
McLouth
Suzuki
Cabrera
Baldelli
Salazar
Spilborghs
Ellsbury
Roberts
Crisp
Edmonds
DeJesus
Blanco
Davis
Byrd
Duffy
Pierre
Nix
De_Aza
Abercrombie
Clark
Maxwell
Taveras
Lofton
Patterson
Schumaker
Sweeney
Murphy
Dickerson
Haynes
DaVanon
Freel
Amezaga
Repko
Reed
Bourn
Colvin
McCutchen
Gil
Bell
Fuld
Pagan
Pridie
Thompson
Kotsay
Kalish
Morgan
Paul
Raines
Taguchi
Denorfia
Gathright
Logan

Yea... We should Use HOPPER because he has speed....

Bip Roberts
02-23-2008, 06:52 PM
By "turn into" I mean literally, like a Freel-and-Stanton-for-Pierre trade.

And Norris Hopper IS the right-handed yang to Juan Pierre's yin.

I wouldnt go that far

mlbfan30
02-23-2008, 06:58 PM
I wouldnt go that far

From the list before, Pierre is better than Hopper by a considerable amount. Pierre isn't "bad", he's just overrated. But it's looking more like he might be underrated because so many people just think he sucks. He has value, he just shouldn't be a leadoff guy making 9M.

Bip Roberts
02-23-2008, 07:04 PM
From the list before, Pierre is better than Hopper by a considerable amount. Pierre isn't "bad", he's just overrated. But it's looking more like he might be underrated because so many people just think he sucks. He has value, he just shouldn't be a leadoff guy making 9M.

Those are based off projections though

Natty Redlocks
02-23-2008, 07:13 PM
I wouldnt go that far

Hopper isn't going to hit .330 every year, though. When Pierre hits .330 he's quite good, like in 04. When he has an "unlucky year" and hits .270, he blows, just like Hopper will. His OBP is extremely BA-driven; the guy can't take a walk, just like Pierre. It's "not his game", and a manager like Dusty is only going to make it worse.

He's been very good against lefties, though. I wouldn't mind seeing that platoon. Assuming Bruce isn't happening yet, I mean.

Bip Roberts
02-23-2008, 07:21 PM
Im not saying Hopper is good either. If Bruce isnt ready and I had my choice between Hopper and Pierre Im going with Hopper for multiple of reasons.

757690
02-23-2008, 08:17 PM
Those are based off projections though

I agree with MLBfan30 that the Reds should play Bruce over Hopper, simply because I see no need to hold back a position player just because of age. There is no history of a position player, especially an outfielder getting ruined because he came up too early. Most HoFers came up at around Bruce's age if not younger. If he is as talented as everyone says he is, let him play.
However, I agree with Bip that projections for Hopper who has not played a full season, and especially Bruce who has not played an inning of MLB ball, aren't worth much. The history of projections for young players is kinda iffy.

Hopper is a real enigma. There is no way of knowing if he can keep up those numbers as an everyday player. There are a few examples of players who blossom late in their careers, Brett Butler, Otis Nixon, Eric Young, so it can happen. But a lot others who had one good year and then faded away.

Bip Roberts
02-23-2008, 08:24 PM
If Bruce is ready he should start. Its never been about his age.

Natty Redlocks
02-23-2008, 08:31 PM
If Bruce is ready he should start. Its never been about his age.

Alas, he's blocked by that spunky Norris Hopper. Center field is where the leadoff man goes, dude. Don't you people know anything?

Bip Roberts
02-23-2008, 08:53 PM
Alas, he's blocked by that spunky Norris Hopper. Center field is where the leadoff man goes, dude. Don't you people know anything?

Excuse me?

Natty Redlocks
02-23-2008, 09:40 PM
Excuse me?

I'm implying that a lot of Reds fans are in for a rude awakening as they slowly and horrifically realize the decision making processes of their new manager.

BEETTLEBUG
02-23-2008, 09:43 PM
If Bruce proves he can handle CF then put him there power or not Ricky Henderson lead off also and he hit HR's there and nobody said anything about his offense.

bubbachunk
02-23-2008, 11:37 PM
If Bruce proves he can handle CF then put him there power or not Ricky Henderson lead off also and he hit HR's there and nobody said anything about his offense.

He also stole a few bases in his time :cool:

mlbfan30
02-24-2008, 12:23 AM
Bruce will steal about 10 bases. He's not slow. Bruce also probably won't get an OBP above .350, but his SLG will be around .500. He's not a "typical" leadoff hitter, but it wouldnt be horrible. Votto should leadoff.

SMcGavin
02-24-2008, 12:44 AM
And Norris Hopper IS the right-handed yang to Juan Pierre's yin.

Haha, excellent. Juan Pierre actually has more power than Hopper though. Pierre once hit THREE home runs in a season, Hopper can only dream of that kind of power.

Bip Roberts
02-24-2008, 03:38 AM
Haha, excellent. Juan Pierre actually has more power than Hopper though. Pierre once hit THREE home runs in a season, Hopper can only dream of that kind of power.

It amazes me that you guys really think Pierre is a better investment

Bip Roberts
02-24-2008, 03:39 AM
Bruce will steal about 10 bases. He's not slow. Bruce also probably won't get an OBP above .350, but his SLG will be around .500. He's not a "typical" leadoff hitter, but it wouldnt be horrible. Votto should leadoff.

Funny thing is I think most people on this board would love the highest OBP guy to lead off.

mlbfan30
02-24-2008, 04:14 AM
Funny thing is I think most people on this board would love the highest OBP guy to lead off.

You mean Dunn?

I really think Votto is the best choice for leadoff. He has solid OBP numbers, could steal around 12 bases. He will hit about 25Hrs, but power leading off isnt bad. It might not be Dustys choice since he likes hackers who dont clog bases.

Lineup should be...
Votto
BP
Dunn
EE
Griffey
Bruce
Agon
Ross

Switching Griffey with EE might be fine, but its the 1st 3 that needs to stay the same. I could see Dusty having BP leadoff which could work (JRoll last year), but that would force too many lefties in a row. It also wouldnt be a good move in terms of a hacker at 1 when a guy who walks and sees more pitches is better

Natty Redlocks
02-24-2008, 07:28 AM
It amazes me that you guys really think Pierre is a better investment

I don't think I said Pierre is a better investment; what I said is they're virtually the same player. Pierre is more proven and will probably hit righties better than Hopper. Hopper will hit lefties better than Pierre (not saying much there). Please don't interpret any of this to mean I would like to see Juan Pierre in a Reds uniform. By far my preference is Jay Bruce and I mean right now. My best guess about the reality of the Reds' timetable tells me that's not going to happen, though, and the plan is likely a competition between Freel and Hopper. Both fit the mold of Dusty's idea of a "leadoff hitter". Both are ideally bench players but since the manager doesn't realize that, replacing one with Kenny Lofton is actually not a horrible idea -- again, given the reality that Bruce is going to be deemed "not ready" no matter what he does, and because he doesn't fit that "leadoff hitter" mold and no one else on the team but Freel and Hopper do.

Pierre also has a horrible contract; at least Hopper is cheap, but that doesn't make him a good option to count on every day. If we had a manager who would play the hot hand all year, Hopper/ Freel would be bearable but Dusty's MO is to pick his guy and stick with him no matter what. I watched him with the Cubs and I really can't emphasize enough what a terrible terrible manager he is. You cannot count on him to play the best players, or to put his players in a position to succeed.

Natty Redlocks
02-24-2008, 07:33 AM
You mean Dunn?

I really think Votto is the best choice for leadoff. He has solid OBP numbers, could steal around 12 bases. He will hit about 25Hrs, but power leading off isnt bad. It might not be Dustys choice since he likes hackers who dont clog bases.

Lineup should be...
Votto
BP
Dunn
EE
Griffey
Bruce
Agon
Ross

Switching Griffey with EE might be fine, but its the 1st 3 that needs to stay the same. I could see Dusty having BP leadoff which could work (JRoll last year), but that would force too many lefties in a row. It also wouldnt be a good move in terms of a hacker at 1 when a guy who walks and sees more pitches is better

Agree on Votto leading off, but with his OBP Phillips shouldn't bat higher than sixth, IMO. In fact Phillips, Gonzalez, Ross should pretty much be carved in stone at the bottom of the lineup. Unfortunately, of course, the two hole is very likely exactly where Baker will put Phillips.

My guess:

Hopper
Phillips
Griffey
Encarnacion
Dunn
Votto (but he better start out hot)
Gonzalez
Ross/ Valentin

TN Red Fan
02-24-2008, 11:39 AM
Hopper should platoon with Griffey, moving Bruce between center and right.

You may not believe it, but Hopper actually outslugged Griffey vs. lefties last year, .441 to .419.

Of course, that will never happen under Dusty. (unless his love of the traditional leadoff hitter outweighs his love of veteran all-stars past their prime!)

bubbachunk
02-24-2008, 11:48 AM
Agree on Votto leading off, but with his OBP Phillips shouldn't bat higher than sixth, IMO. In fact Phillips, Gonzalez, Ross should pretty much be carved in stone at the bottom of the lineup. Unfortunately, of course, the two hole is very likely exactly where Baker will put Phillips.

My guess:

Hopper
Phillips
Griffey
Encarnacion
Dunn
Votto (but he better start out hot)
Gonzalez
Ross/ Valentin

Are you crazy?! Brandon was the best hitter for that reds team last year and baring a major decrease he will be right there again. He has proven he can drive guys in he should be hitting third like he did last year.

goreds2
02-24-2008, 01:12 PM
Are you crazy?! Brandon was the best hitter for that reds team last year and baring a major decrease he will be right there again. He has proven he can drive guys in he should be hitting third like he did last year.

Besides Phillips, who do you see batting second??

bubbachunk
02-24-2008, 01:25 PM
Besides Phillips, who do you see batting second??

I don't have a problem with him batting 2nd but I was more amazed at the comment he should bat 6th!

Blue
02-24-2008, 01:45 PM
Are you crazy?! Brandon was the best hitter for that reds team last year and baring a major decrease he will be right there again. He has proven he can drive guys in he should be hitting third like he did last year.

He was actually better with the bases empty last year than he was with runners on and runners in scoring position. You can look it up.

My guess:

Hopper
Phillips
Griffey
Dunn
Encarnacion
Votto
Gonzalez
Ross
pitcher

though I would like to see:

Keppinger
Phillips
Griffey
Dunn
Encarnacion
Votto
Bruce
Ross
pitcher

jmac
02-24-2008, 02:00 PM
Hopper should platoon with Griffey, moving Bruce between center and right.

You may not believe it, but Hopper actually outslugged Griffey vs. lefties last year, .441 to .419.

Of course, that will never happen under Dusty. (unless his love of the traditional leadoff hitter outweighs his love of veteran all-stars past their prime!)

You could substitute Dusty's name with any other major league manager.
I can see giving Jr games off here and there vs lefties but not a straight platoon with Hopper.

757690
02-24-2008, 02:29 PM
You mean Dunn?

It might not be Dustys choice since he likes hackers who dont clog bases.



I know you said that in jest, but to be clear, Dusty is only talking about middle of the lineup guys when he talks about clogging the bases, not lead off hitters. He likes leadoff hitters who get on base, and who can steal bases.

SMcGavin
02-24-2008, 03:09 PM
It amazes me that you guys really think Pierre is a better investment

Of course I don't want to get Juan Pierre, I thought the sarcasm came through pretty clearly. Neither Pierre or Hopper is good. Hopper though is cheap so I can live with him on the bench... Pierre not so much.

Maybe I need to add one of these little faces next time?:)

AmarilloRed
02-24-2008, 03:17 PM
Besides Phillips, who do you see batting second??

Keppinger did a good job batting second last year.

SMcGavin
02-24-2008, 03:30 PM
Keppinger did a good job batting second last year.

Yes he did, Keppinger is a pretty ideal top of the order guy if you ask me. If they do the Votto/Keppinger platoon I'd definitely hit Kepp 2nd (or 1st) against lefties. .400 OBP last year, .421 OBP vs. lefties (I know small sample size). It might not be that high again but I don't think it's unreasonable to look for a .370-.380 OBP from Kepp vs. lefties in 2008.

Bip Roberts
02-24-2008, 03:36 PM
Who ever wins CF spot
Edwin
Dunn
Phillips
Griffey
Votto
Gonzales
Catcher
Pitcher

TN Red Fan
02-24-2008, 04:31 PM
You could substitute Dusty's name with any other major league manager.
I can see giving Jr games off here and there vs lefties but not a straight platoon with Hopper.

Why, though? I mean, if the numbers are better, the numbers are better. You'd also have better defense in center and right with Hopper and Bruce.

Griffey, batting against righties would still get the majority of the plate appearances. Probably 450 to Hopper's 300.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, mind you.

HUHUH
02-24-2008, 10:31 PM
Alright,
I'm tired of reading a lot of this, but I'm not sure this is the correct thread to post; but here goes.

I've always felt that batting order is WAY overrated. The concept goes back a long time, and we all know that baseball guys aren't that smart to begin with. The notion that #1 has to get on, #2 move him over, and #3 drive him in is a load of hooey, as far as I'm concerned. Bring on the best 9, put them in a "compatable" order, and lets play.

Now, regarding the young guys: I don't get it when people say "We'll see if Homer Bailey can cut it this year...., etc, etc". We've had these guys (Cueto, Baily, Votto, Bruce) in our system for a few years now. It seems to me the powers that be (if we have any) ought to be able to make a rational judgement as to whether these guys can make it in the bigs or not. Don't give me this "we'll see if he's ready or not". If the guy's got the stuff, bring him on. I'm not saying he'll be an immediate success, but I've seen a SUCCESSFUL trend more and more recently of letting guys develop in the bigs. This might entail some losing, but I think this is the way to get it done.

Natty Redlocks
02-24-2008, 10:48 PM
Alright,
I'm tired of reading a lot of this, but I'm not sure this is the correct thread to post; but here goes.

I've always felt that batting order is WAY overrated. The concept goes back a long time, and we all know that baseball guys aren't that smart to begin with. The notion that #1 has to get on, #2 move him over, and #3 drive him in is a load of hooey, as far as I'm concerned. Bring on the best 9, put them in a "compatable" order, and lets play.

Now, regarding the young guys: I don't get it when people say "We'll see if Homer Bailey can cut it this year...., etc, etc". We've had these guys (Cueto, Baily, Votto, Bruce) in our system for a few years now. It seems to me the powers that be (if we have any) ought to be able to make a rational judgement as to whether these guys can make it in the bigs or not. Don't give me this "we'll see if he's ready or not". If the guy's got the stuff, bring him on. I'm not saying he'll be an immediate success, but I've seen a SUCCESSFUL trend more and more recently of letting guys develop in the bigs. This might entail some losing, but I think this is the way to get it done.

There's the issue of major league service time. Why waste a year of cheap Homer Bailey taking his lumps putting up mediocre numbers that you could get from Josh Fogg at a discount? In a season you're not likely to contend anyway? I think 09 and especially 2010 are the years this team could be special if handled correctly. Why they picked the dumbest manager in baseball to handle it is beyond me, but the idea of buying more time for the young pitchers is a very good one.

Stephenk29
02-25-2008, 12:13 AM
Does it matter if the young guys take their lumps this year or next? If you want to win in '09 the lumps have to be taken this year. Otherwise '09 will be yet another massive frustration.

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 12:16 AM
Does it matter if the young guys take their lumps this year or next? If you want to win in '09 the lumps have to be taken this year. Otherwise '09 will be yet another massive frustration.

Ive been trying to say that all offseason. You cant just push guys off to AAA thinking they will never have to struggle in the majors. I dont care if they spend time in AAA this year but they really need to log a large amount of innings in the majors next year.

Natty Redlocks
02-25-2008, 12:36 AM
It's a matter of how much struggle. Bailey needs to learn to command his pitches better, something he can do in Louisville if he's willing. If he does, he'll struggle less and help the team more when he does come up.

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 12:44 AM
It's a matter of how much struggle. Bailey needs to learn to command his pitches better, something he can do in Louisville if he's willing. If he does, he'll struggle less and help the team more when he does come up.

Why couldnt he learn the command at the MLB level? Most people acknowledge that the MLB strike zone is smaller so hes going to have to learn command all over again anyways.

Stephenk29
02-25-2008, 12:44 AM
I agree there it will be a lesser struggle if that have another year in the minors. The young guys will still struggle to the point where we likely won't win anything significant regardless of how long they develop down there.

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 12:46 AM
While another year in AAA might help them some would argue 1 year in the majors would help them more.

Stephenk29
02-25-2008, 12:47 AM
The strike zone isn't all that much different. Bailey struggles with his command so much he's wild at every level.

ChatterRed
02-25-2008, 06:59 PM
Ive been trying to say that all offseason. You cant just push guys off to AAA thinking they will never have to struggle in the majors. I dont care if they spend time in AAA this year but they really need to log a large amount of innings in the majors next year.

I agree. If Jay Bruce does not play CF for the Reds this year, and they fail to make the playoffs, the season is a waste.