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BLEEDS
02-25-2008, 04:07 PM
I just finished up my notebook for tommorow. The lead is on the lineup. My best guess (provided Jay Bruce doesn't win the center field job):

Freel/Hopper CF
Hatteberg/Votto 1B
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Gonzalez SS
Ross/Valentin C

That's based on some things Dusty Baker said:

On who hits leadoff when Norris Hopper or Ryan Freel doesn't start: “I hope one or other would be in the game,” Baker said. “That’s my hope. I don’t know many teams that have three (leadoff guys).”

On the lineup in general: “It probably won’t be a whole lot different than last year. Without Josh Hamilton, it will be different.”

On who hits second: “It’s probably equally important who the second hitter’s going to be. That’s a big, big spot. It’s a smart spot, a contact spot, a move-the-ball-around spot, an unselfish spot. It’s probably one of the more spots in the lineup. It depends who’s playing, you don’t want it to be a power guy. Gonzalez, Keppinger, Hatteberg. You’d like a little more speed.”

On Brandon Phillips hitting clean up: “Brandon will probably hit third someday. But, right now, I need to him break up Junior and Dunn."
__________________________________________________ ______

over in the ORG, you've got guys lining up on the Bridge ready to jump off at the prospect of having Gonzo/Keppinger in the 2 hole.

Personally I LOVE Votto in the #2, I think he's ideal - this of course after learning that Votto actually swiped 20 bags or so in the minors a few times, so actually has some speed.

Insert Keppinger against lefties at 1B, and I can live with the top 2.

However, I'm still not happy with Batting Dunn 5th - probably never will. This darn insistence on "splitting up the lefties" is getting REAL OLD, and having an out-machine like BP in the middle of those guys makes no sense to me. I think the biggest issue to this is Jr - as no way would his ego allow him to move down in the lineup. Hopefully he's gone in 2009 and Jay Bruce is in - of course we probably have to split him and Dunn up too (assuming he's even here), so maybe it's just the same situation.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 04:46 PM
I really would like Keppingers bat in the line up. I agree with not liking Dunn batting 5th, Id rather have him betting 3rd just because he cant do anything with RISP but walk, and I cant stand watching him walk and then have Alex Gonzales try to be the teams RBI guy.

Newman4
02-25-2008, 05:10 PM
Jr - as no way would his ego allow him to move down in the lineup.

Didn't Jr. hit 4th and 5th for a bit back in maybe 2005 or so?

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 05:24 PM
I think the Jr ego thing is a little overblown

ChatterRed
02-25-2008, 05:52 PM
If Bruce isn't in the lineup, I won't be watching much. With Josh Hamilton gone, the team lacks some luster without some young phenom to watch. It appears to be more of the same.

Until Bruce is in the lineup, I will probably be less interested.

Blue
02-25-2008, 08:18 PM
The thought of Freel and Hopper playing ahead of Jay Bruce turns my stomach. Even Jerry Narron never played Freel or Hopper over a healthy Hamilton once it was established that Hamilton could play. Of course, we don't really know what Bruce can do up here, but its not like with Hamilton where he didn't play ball for 5 years.

I also don't like Phillips batting cleanup, but that's a relatively minor gripe compared to getting the right players in the lineup.

757690
02-25-2008, 08:55 PM
They haven't even played a game yet. How can anyone take these statements on a lineup seriously? Some of those players might not even be in Reds uniform opening day. This is just pure speculation on what Baker knows so far.
He has not seen Jay Bruce play, ever, so how do you expect him to announce that he is the center fielder?
Fay and other writers write these things just to get people talking. Judging by how the Sabr wonks over-reacted in the ORG, it looks like it worked.

Blue
02-25-2008, 08:58 PM
They haven't even played a game yet. How can anyone take these statements on a lineup seriously? Some of those players might not even be in Reds uniform opening day. This is just pure speculation on what Baker knows so far.
He has not seen Jay Bruce play, ever, so how do you expect him to announce that he is the center fielder?
Fay and other writers write these things just to get people talking. Judging by how the Sabr wonks over-reacted in the ORG, it looks like it worked.

“'I hope one or other would be in the game,' Baker said. 'That’s my hope. I don’t know many teams that have three (leadoff guys).'"

I don't know. To me, that sounds like those guys are going to be in CF and leading off no matter what.

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 08:59 PM
They haven't even played a game yet. How can anyone take these statements on a lineup seriously? Some of those players might not even be in Reds uniform opening day. This is just pure speculation on what Baker knows so far.
He has not seen Jay Bruce play, ever, so how do you expect him to announce that he is the center fielder?
Fay and other writers write these things just to get people talking. Judging by how the Sabr wonks over-reacted in the ORG, it looks like it worked.

:thumbup: He said tonight on 700 wlw that Bruce has every chance to play its just he cant throw his name out there because he hasnt seen him play.

Blue
02-25-2008, 09:02 PM
:thumbup: He said tonight on 700 wlw that Bruce has every chance to play its just he cant throw his name out there because he hasnt seen him play.

I retract my previous statement. Never happened.

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 09:06 PM
I retract my previous statement. Never happened.

I understand your concern but some times print media doesnt really get the point across as well as audio. It does read like Fropper is going to be main guy though.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
02-25-2008, 09:08 PM
If Bruce isn't in the lineup, I won't be watching much. With Josh Hamilton gone, the team lacks some luster without some young phenom to watch. It appears to be more of the same.

Until Bruce is in the lineup, I will probably be less interested.
Wow, over a thousand posts on a Reds fan board and you only watch the team if there is a young phenom. I'm sorry, I don't get it. You can spend hours online talking about a team with no young phenom, but watching them actually play is out of the question? I bet you said you would never watch again after the strike too didn't you.:rolleyes:

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 09:11 PM
Best part about 700 wlw tonight was that Krivsky pretty much told Doc how stupid he is by judging a pitcher by his win loss record :bowrofl:

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
02-25-2008, 09:11 PM
The thought of Freel and Hopper playing ahead of Jay Bruce turns my stomach. Even Jerry Narron never played Freel or Hopper over a healthy Hamilton once it was established that Hamilton could play. Of course, we don't really know what Bruce can do up here, but its not like with Hamilton where he didn't play ball for 5 years.

I also don't like Phillips batting cleanup, but that's a relatively minor gripe compared to getting the right players in the lineup.I don't know, I kinda like the idea of Hopper leading off for the first part of the season. Let him bunt like crazy and when teams start to adapt to it then bring Bruce up to finish out the year.

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 09:13 PM
In our lead off spot all I really care about who is going to have the highest OBP that arent our power bats. I dont know if thats correct but in our line up just give me a guy whos standing on 1st the most and let our power hitters worry about moving him around the paths.

Natty Redlocks
02-25-2008, 09:20 PM
I think the Jr ego thing is a little overblown

Definitely agree. I remember last offseason I was convinced Junior would never move from CF and would never agree to move down in the lineup. He began the season in RF batting 4th or 5th until he was hitting so well I wondered what took them so long to move him back to the 3 hole.

MaineRed
02-25-2008, 10:03 PM
Judging by how the Sabr wonks over-reacted in the ORG, it looks like it worked.

Pretty much. Makes me sick to even be a Reds fan. The only saving grace is that every team has idiotic fans who think they know it all.

Apparently Dusty mentioned that he didn't want a "power guy in the two hole taking pitches". That comment led to a few ORG members blowing their top as they wrote open letters to Dusty on how to properly fill out a line-up card. My favorite comment was from the guy who said the goal of hitters 1-8 should be to not make an out. Thanks Einstein, I'll pass that along to Dusty and I am sure he will adjust his philosphy to find someone for the two hole who will try not to make an out.

I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with not wanting a power guy in the two hole? Barry Larkin was the best two hole hitter the Reds have had in my life and he wasn't a power guy.

zjr1717
02-25-2008, 10:44 PM
Pretty much. Makes me sick to even be a Reds fan. The only saving grace is that every team has idiotic fans who think they know it all.

Apparently Dusty mentioned that he didn't want a "power guy in the two hole taking pitches". That comment led to a few ORG members blowing their top as they wrote open letters to Dusty on how to properly fill out a line-up card. My favorite comment was from the guy who said the goal of hitters 1-8 should be to not make an out. Thanks Einstein, I'll pass that along to Dusty and I am sure he will adjust his philosphy to find someone for the two hole who will try not to make an out.

I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with not wanting a power guy in the two hole? Barry Larkin was the best two hole hitter the Reds have had in my life and he wasn't a power guy.

Its not because those people want a power guy in the two hole specifically. Its because Dusty would rather have a guy with no OBP like Agon in the 2 hole than someone with OBP and power like EE. And you can't really use Barry Larkin as an example, he was a rare player who could do everything. The Reds dont have anyone with the ability to hit for power, average, get on base, and steal bases like Larkin.

mlbfan30
02-25-2008, 11:02 PM
Pretty much. Makes me sick to even be a Reds fan. The only saving grace is that every team has idiotic fans who think they know it all.

Apparently Dusty mentioned that he didn't want a "power guy in the two hole taking pitches". That comment led to a few ORG members blowing their top as they wrote open letters to Dusty on how to properly fill out a line-up card. My favorite comment was from the guy who said the goal of hitters 1-8 should be to not make an out. Thanks Einstein, I'll pass that along to Dusty and I am sure he will adjust his philosphy to find someone for the two hole who will try not to make an out.

I'm still trying to figure out what is wrong with not wanting a power guy in the two hole? Barry Larkin was the best two hole hitter the Reds have had in my life and he wasn't a power guy.


There's a lot more to that....


Does he want guys with lofty on-base percentages? The answer will likely not sit well with fans of the book “Moneyball,” because Baker said he believes the OBP statistic is overvalued.

“I’m big on driving in runs and scoring runs,” Baker said. “Guys in the middle should score about close to equal to what they drive in. On-base percentage, that’s fine and dandy. But a lot of times guys get so much into on-base percentage that they cease to swing. It’s becoming a little bit out of control.

This implies that he doesn't understand the value of walks. He would rather have a guy get an out by putting the ball in play than by extending the inning by walking. OBP is not overvalued. It is undervalued by guys like him. It sounds like he's attacking Dunn's approach, but Dunn has been an extremely valuable hitter. He should not encouage somewhat patient hitters like EE, Votto, and free swingers like BP, AGone, Hopper. Ross to walk even less.

Following some other blog... continue this sentence
"A player can only score if he gets _____"


Also this...

When Baker was asked who would hit leadoff when Ryan Freel and Norris Hopper aren’t playing, he said: “I hope one or the other is in the game.”

This means he wants a "true" leadoff hitter and will sacrifice Bruce to have that. He later says Bruce is still in it, but it sounds like he really wants a "leadoff hitter" He also seems obsessed that only a speedy CF can hit leadoff. Imagine if he could say he wants his 1B to leadoff. That would be insane, right?


This is what your talking about

On who hits second: “It’s probably equally important who the second hitter’s going to be. That’s a big, big spot. It’s a smart spot, a contact spot, a move-the-ball-around spot, an unselfish spot. It’s probably one of the more spots in the lineup. It depends who’s playing, you don’t want it to be a power guy. Gonzalez, Keppinger, Hatteberg. You’d like a little more speed.”

This is saying he wants a small ball speedy guy to play 2nd, which is typical in baseball, but not the most efficient. You should want good hitters batting 2nd because they will get more at bats. A high OBP 2nd hitter is good because he gets on base and prolongs innings. Saying you don't want power is absurd. Who goes around saying you don't want the hitter's at bat to result in the best possible outcome? It's like McCarvers rant saying that a leadoff HR is worse than a leadoff BB. A HR wins everytime. The fact that Baker says Agone 1st probably indicates he's considering Agone is a 2nd place hitter. He's considering a guy with a .295 career OBP as a 2nd hitter

There is also..

On Brandon Phillips hitting clean up: “Brandon will probably hit third someday. But, right now, I need to him break up Junior and Dunn."

This helps in fantasy, but BP should not ideally be in this spot. It's not a big deal, but you shouldn't commit yourself to have a low OBP, double play machine hitting 4th. Dunn is a guy that can hit a HR at any time. A low OBP guy in front of him will reduce the amount of extra runs the team scores from Dunn HRs. BP's double plays mean that Dunn will get up that many more times with fewer men on base.

I hope you, or anyone else can follow these logical explanations and try to rebuttal your point. I don't call other Reds fans idiotic and then attack other people with little to no logic to support my post

Bip Roberts
02-25-2008, 11:33 PM
I really doubt if you said "hey dusty would you rather have a guy get out than get a walk?" he would say "oh heck yea screw walks!"

AmarilloRed
02-25-2008, 11:52 PM
I think all of this is premature, as no spring training games have been played yet. Until they are, we are just spinning our wheels on who will be on the roster and in the starting lineup.
Bruce and Votto will get plenty of ABs in spring training to prove that they deserve to be on the roster and starting position players. Keppinger and Hopper will get their playing time if they continue to hit like they did last year.

fugowitribe
02-26-2008, 12:11 AM
I know Freel is not a solid infielder, but Brandon Phillips is, and if you put BP at short, and Freel at 2nd, then all of your leadoff, Gonzo injury, and where to put BP problems behind you with a line up that looks like this:

2B- Ryan Freel
SS-BP
1B- Votto
RF- Griffey
3B- EE (Freel has shown he can play 3rd too)
LF- Dunn
CF- Bruce
C - Ross

Bip Roberts
02-26-2008, 12:17 AM
I think most people would have Kepp being the every day 2b if that were to happen

jmac
02-26-2008, 02:09 AM
:thumbup: He said tonight on 700 wlw that Bruce has every chance to play its just he cant throw his name out there because he hasnt seen him play.
I missed show so thanks for update. Glad to hear ! :thumbup:

MaineRed
02-26-2008, 07:49 AM
What would you rather have?

Votto/Hatte hitting second and getting on base more often than Gonzo so BP, Dunn, Griff and Edwin can drive him in.

OR

Votto/Hatte hitting seventh where they will have tons of opportunities to drive in the guys mentioned above.

Option 1 would have Ross/Gonzalez hitting 7th in the big RBI spot. Option 2 would have Gonzalez hitting second.

What is going to create more runs? Votto, Hatte being on base for the big guys to drive them in or having a bigger stick behind our best hitters to drive them in?

I don't think there is an obvious answer which makes the outcry about this stuff, laughable.

RSNtransplant
02-26-2008, 10:23 AM
What would you rather have?

Votto/Hatte hitting second and getting on base more often than Gonzo so BP, Dunn, Griff and Edwin can drive him in.

OR

Votto/Hatte hitting seventh where they will have tons of opportunities to drive in the guys mentioned above.

Option 1 would have Ross/Gonzalez hitting 7th in the big RBI spot. Option 2 would have Gonzalez hitting second.

What is going to create more runs? Votto, Hatte being on base for the big guys to drive them in or having a bigger stick behind our best hitters to drive them in?

I don't think there is an obvious answer which makes the outcry about this stuff, laughable.

Chosing b/t thoose two options also implies giving at least 50 more ABs to the platoon @ 1st versus at least 50 more ABs to Gonzalez. I love good defensive players, but I think I would prefer those extra ABs going to Votto/Hatte.

BLEEDS
02-26-2008, 10:23 AM
What would you rather have?

Votto/Hatte hitting second and getting on base more often than Gonzo so BP, Dunn, Griff and Edwin can drive him in.

OR

Votto/Hatte hitting seventh where they will have tons of opportunities to drive in the guys mentioned above.

Option 1 would have Ross/Gonzalez hitting 7th in the big RBI spot. Option 2 would have Gonzalez hitting second.

What is going to create more runs? Votto, Hatte being on base for the big guys to drive them in or having a bigger stick behind our best hitters to drive them in?

I don't think there is an obvious answer which makes the outcry about this stuff, laughable.

I would rather have Votto batting 2nd than Gonzo, every single day. That would give Votto about 100 AB's more than Gonzo - or moreso, Gonzo 100 AB"s less than him hitting 2nd.

There's no reason better hitters should sacrifice at-bats to guys because they are "speedy"...

I'm also appalled at the idea of BP batting 4th - for the SOLE reason that "he needs to split up the lefties". The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
02-26-2008, 10:25 AM
2B- Ryan Freel
SS-BP
1B- Votto
RF- Griffey
3B- EE (Freel has shown he can play 3rd too)
LF- Dunn
CF- Bruce
C - Ross

There is so much wrong with this, I don't even know where to begin.

Okay - how about this one: I think this lineup would be better if it were REVERSED!!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

RSNtransplant
02-26-2008, 10:52 AM
I'm also appalled at the idea of BP batting 4th - for the SOLE reason that "he needs to split up the lefties". The most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life...



I have to disagree, especially in this era where getting into a teams bullpen can be a huge advantage for an entire series. I remember numerous rallies last year killed, b/c without a RH power bat in the line-up, a lefty specialist could just pitch to the lefties in the line-up. Without someone to break up all of last years lefties, the Reds were basically playing one late inning short of the other teams.

Newman4
02-26-2008, 10:56 AM
Um, I think Keppinger should be hitting 2nd and playing SS. Gonzo should be traded and Votto hitting 6th, so where do I stand?

By the way, Dusty Baker has written a book on hitting and probably the best I have read from a coach's standpoint on fundamental hitting. From reading it, I gather that Dusty approaches things still from a player's point of view on a lot of issues. Dunn is a good example because solely from my reading of Dusty's book, it seems as though Dusty would not be comfortable with Dunn in the #4 spot because of the often discussed propensity to strike out. Dusty sees BP as making more contact as thus being more likely to score a runner on base with a sac fly or RBI groundout. Whether this be right or wrong, I feel like this is how he views the situation. Also, Dusty puts his best power hitter in the #5 hole. He says this in his book as well. I think Dusty sees Dunn passing up too many pitches that could be sac fly or sometimes extra base hits by taking pitches to walk. Again, just my opinions from reading his book, but I think he feels that Dunn should be more like Vlad or Jeff Franceour and hit what he can hard and then let the results take care of itself. I'm not agreeing with this logic, but I am not sold that AD is as good as could be either. Maybe if he swung away on some borderline pitches it would help, who knows?
As far as the #2 spot, I don't think Dusty doesn't care entirely about OBP, but he wants a guy there to be able to do many things, including bunt and make contact more often than not. He doesn't want non-productive outs in that spot. Just my take on Dusty.

Bip Roberts
02-26-2008, 11:00 AM
Um, I think Keppinger should be hitting 2nd and playing SS. Gonzo should be traded and Votto hitting 6th, so where do I stand?

By the way, Dusty Baker has written a book on hitting and probably the best I have read from a coach's standpoint on fundamental hitting. From reading it, I gather that Dusty approaches things still from a player's point of view on a lot of issues. Dunn is a good example because solely from my reading of Dusty's book, it seems as though Dusty would not be comfortable with Dunn in the #4 spot because of the often discussed propensity to strike out. Dusty sees BP as making more contact as thus being more likely to score a runner on base with a sac fly or RBI groundout. Whether this be right or wrong, I feel like this is how he views the situation. Also, Dusty puts his best power hitter in the #5 hole. He says this in his book as well. I think Dusty sees Dunn passing up too many pitches that could be sac fly or sometimes extra base hits by taking pitches to walk. Again, just my opinions from reading his book, but I think he feels that Dunn should be more like Vlad or Jeff Franceour and hit what he can hard and then let the results take care of itself. I'm not agreeing with this logic, but I am not sold that AD is as good as could be either. Maybe if he swung away on some borderline pitches it would help, who knows?
As far as the #2 spot, I don't think Dusty doesn't care entirely about OBP, but he wants a guy there to be able to do many things, including bunt and make contact more often than not. He doesn't want non-productive outs in that spot. Just my take on Dusty.
Very solid post here

RSNtransplant
02-26-2008, 11:05 AM
Um, I think Keppinger should be hitting 2nd and playing SS. Gonzo should be traded and Votto hitting 6th, so where do I stand?

By the way, Dusty Baker has written a book on hitting and probably the best I have read from a coach's standpoint on fundamental hitting. From reading it, I gather that Dusty approaches things still from a player's point of view on a lot of issues. Dunn is a good example because solely from my reading of Dusty's book, it seems as though Dusty would not be comfortable with Dunn in the #4 spot because of the often discussed propensity to strike out. Dusty sees BP as making more contact as thus being more likely to score a runner on base with a sac fly or RBI groundout. Whether this be right or wrong, I feel like this is how he views the situation. Also, Dusty puts his best power hitter in the #5 hole. He says this in his book as well. I think Dusty sees Dunn passing up too many pitches that could be sac fly or sometimes extra base hits by taking pitches to walk. Again, just my opinions from reading his book, but I think he feels that Dunn should be more like Vlad or Jeff Franceour and hit what he can hard and then let the results take care of itself. I'm not agreeing with this logic, but I am not sold that AD is as good as could be either. Maybe if he swung away on some borderline pitches it would help, who knows?
As far as the #2 spot, I don't think Dusty doesn't care entirely about OBP, but he wants a guy there to be able to do many things, including bunt and make contact more often than not. He doesn't want non-productive outs in that spot. Just my take on Dusty.

I wouldn't mind Keppinger's 07 numbers batting 2nd, but I do not want to see him playing SS on a regular basis. I don't think there would be much of a market for Gonzalez either. Regardless of that, I'd prefer to have best defensive player in the IF spot where Defense means the most, SS.

Bip Roberts
02-26-2008, 11:06 AM
I know a guy who I trust pretty much has made the debate that Keppinger play at SS was in fact better at SS than Gonzales not just last year but years before

RSNtransplant
02-26-2008, 11:27 AM
I know a guy who I trust pretty much has made the debate that Keppinger play at SS was in fact better at SS than Gonzales not just last year but years before

I'd love to hear or see that info, but for now I'll trust what my eyes have told me watching the games. Keppinger looked easily a step slower and out of place, especially awkward when taking the ball from BP moving towards 1st to turn a double play. If he didn't improve in that area he wouldn't last a whole season @ SS, because he will get taken out by the runner.

Bip Roberts
02-26-2008, 11:30 AM
I'd love to hear or see that info, but for now I'll trust what my eyes have told me watching the games. Keppinger looked easily a step slower and out of place, especially awkward when taking the ball from BP moving towards 1st to turn a double play. If he didn't improve in that area he wouldn't last a whole season @ SS, because he will get taken out by the runner.

Thats fine he post on this board so ill look up his post and junk and hopefully get back to you about it.

RSNtransplant
02-26-2008, 11:31 AM
Thats fine he post on this board so ill look up his post and junk and hopefully get back to you about it.

Thanks

Natty Redlocks
02-26-2008, 11:57 AM
Um, I think Keppinger should be hitting 2nd and playing SS. Gonzo should be traded and Votto hitting 6th, so where do I stand?

By the way, Dusty Baker has written a book on hitting and probably the best I have read from a coach's standpoint on fundamental hitting. From reading it, I gather that Dusty approaches things still from a player's point of view on a lot of issues. Dunn is a good example because solely from my reading of Dusty's book, it seems as though Dusty would not be comfortable with Dunn in the #4 spot because of the often discussed propensity to strike out. Dusty sees BP as making more contact as thus being more likely to score a runner on base with a sac fly or RBI groundout. Whether this be right or wrong, I feel like this is how he views the situation. Also, Dusty puts his best power hitter in the #5 hole. He says this in his book as well. I think Dusty sees Dunn passing up too many pitches that could be sac fly or sometimes extra base hits by taking pitches to walk. Again, just my opinions from reading his book, but I think he feels that Dunn should be more like Vlad or Jeff Franceour and hit what he can hard and then let the results take care of itself. I'm not agreeing with this logic, but I am not sold that AD is as good as could be either. Maybe if he swung away on some borderline pitches it would help, who knows?
As far as the #2 spot, I don't think Dusty doesn't care entirely about OBP, but he wants a guy there to be able to do many things, including bunt and make contact more often than not. He doesn't want non-productive outs in that spot. Just my take on Dusty.

So just to clarify, Jacque Jones and Jeremy Burnitz were better power hitters than Aramis Ramirez? (You're right, the Sun Deck does have some "interesting" ideas about baseball)

Bip Roberts
02-26-2008, 12:50 PM
I'd love to hear or see that info, but for now I'll trust what my eyes have told me watching the games. Keppinger looked easily a step slower and out of place, especially awkward when taking the ball from BP moving towards 1st to turn a double play. If he didn't improve in that area he wouldn't last a whole season @ SS, because he will get taken out by the runner.

While I didnt get around to looking it up yet because I'm lazy Lance over at 1530 homer posted this

I bolded the better stat


Pickin' 'em at SS
Comparsion of Alex Gonzalez and Jeff Keppinger at SS in 2007
Games: Gonzalez 103, Keppinger 43
Fielding percentage: Gonzalez .963, Keppinger .989
Range Factor: Gonzalez 4.24, Keppinger 4.29
Zone rating: Gonzalez .843, Keppinger .842

RSNtransplant
02-26-2008, 02:28 PM
While I didnt get around to looking it up yet because I'm lazy Lance over at 1530 homer posted this

I bolded the better stat

Fielding % is poor measure @ best, b/c the better defender can get to more balls that are harder to handle and therefore have more errors. With regards to range factor, if you(anyone) have seen both play, who do you think has better range?

Bip Roberts
02-26-2008, 02:35 PM
Fielding % is poor measure @ best, b/c the better defender can get to more balls that are harder to handle and therefore have more errors. With regards to range factor, if you(anyone) have seen both play, who do you think has better range?

Fielding % alone is a bad stat but when combined with other stats it gains more value.

Id say Gonzales has better range just based off the what my eye sees. I never thought it was that close but then again i might not have been paying close enough attention because I just assumed it wasnt close based on what I hear also.

The stats suggest Keppinger did play a better D at short last year though.

Newman4
02-26-2008, 03:39 PM
So just to clarify, Jacque Jones and Jeremy Burnitz were better power hitters than Aramis Ramirez? (You're right, the Sun Deck does have some "interesting" ideas about baseball)

That's what he says in his book. Have you read it?

Natty Redlocks
02-26-2008, 04:37 PM
That's what he says in his book. Have you read it?

No but I lived it as a Cub fan. The guy's arrogance is insufferable. I'll read a book he wrote when he stops taking over my favorite teams and running them into the ground.

757690
02-28-2008, 02:16 PM
From Hal's Blog today:

"While the weather for the Reds’ first two exhibition games was frightful - there was a suggestion to start a bonfire in the dugout with Adam Dunn’s big bats - manager Dusty Baker is taking a look-see at the No. 1 and No. 2 spots in his batting order.

Call it a tryout, but mostly it is audition time.

On Wednesday in Clearwater against the Philadelphia Phillies, Baker had Ryan Freel leading off and Norris Hopper batting second.

On Tuesday at home against the Minnesota Twins, Baker had Hopper leading off and Freel batting second.

“In case I play both at the same time, I’m seeing who is better where in the order,” said Baker. “I want to see where they hit the best. If I want to hit-and-run, which one can handle that bat better. I have some thoughts, but … you know.”

Hopper wins on that point.

“If I want to double steal, which one is better on the lead and which one is better on the back side?” Baker added. “If I need to bunt, are they even, or is one better than the other (Hopper is a landslide winner in the bunting category)?

“I need to know which one is the smarter hitter - which one can take and which one is a better hitter with two strikes. I have a pretty good idea already, but I have to see.”"

You can jump on his case that he is considering Freel and Hopper for leadoff hitter, but I really admire that he is using Spring Training to get to know his players better and to see what they can do. I prefer this method to just going on stats, since stats really only tell you what a player did, not what he will do. Players improve, regress, get injured, come off injuries, become smarter, learn new tools, etc.

More importantly, this tells me that he has no foregone conclusions and that the lineups that he uses this month are really experiments, and should not be taken to seriously.

I think anyone who basis their opinion of Baker on the lineups he writes up in the first two weeks of Spring Training, should really stop and think about what they are doing.

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 02:19 PM
The Baker bashing is getting very very old on this board. I can understand some of it but people are ridiculously driving it into the ground.

757690
02-28-2008, 02:29 PM
The Baker bashing is getting very very old on this board. I can understand some of it but people are ridiculously driving it into the ground.

Completely agree. I would advise you to not read the ORG. They are obsessed with it.

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 02:33 PM
Completely agree. I would advise you to not read the ORG. They are obsessed with it.

Yea is really lame. Its not even based on anything when they do it.

Heres the lineup:
blah
blah...


and then the 1st response is normally something like "oh god hes so freaking worthless hes wasting so many runs by batting Votto as the DH and 9th"

IowaRed
02-28-2008, 04:05 PM
Yea is really lame. Its not even based on anything when they do it.

Heres the lineup:
blah
blah...


and then the 1st response is normally something like "oh god hes so freaking worthless hes wasting so many runs by batting Votto as the DH and 9th"

that's a very broad statement and in my experience there is no other place where information "not based on anything" gets challenged on this site more and faster than on the ORG, and it ain't close.

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 04:08 PM
that's a very broad statement and in my experience there is no other place where information "not based on anything" gets challenged on this site more and faster than on the ORG, and it ain't close.

People are trashing Baker and want him fired almost over spring training line ups :rolleyes:. There is a group of people who find something wrong with no matter what he does or what he says. He could say "happy birthday" to someone and someone would come off saying its obvious he wasnt sincere or something.

GoReds33
02-28-2008, 04:18 PM
I like Baker, just because he seems to know what he's doing. A winning career record speaks for itself. I think we should all take a break, and wait until the end of the year to resume our talks on Baker. If you don't like the team after a year of Baker, then you have a reason to complain. Until that point, we have no idea what he can do with this team.

IowaRed
02-28-2008, 04:28 PM
People are trashing Baker and want him fired almost over spring training line ups :rolleyes:. There is a group of people who find something wrong with no matter what he does or what he says. He could say "happy birthday" to someone and someone would come off saying its obvious he wasnt sincere or something.

Most people who have commented on the lineup structure have also commented on and are more concerned with people taking AB's from better players, thats what I have seen for the most part. I think most of us agree on wanting the best hitters to get the most AB's, the problem is that a lot of us think Baker has archaic ideas about what makes a hitter better. For example, Neifi Perez and his 572 AB's in 2005, 65of those games he was the #2 hitter and 26 games he led off. His OBP that year .298.

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 04:55 PM
I like Baker, just because he seems to know what he's doing. A winning career record speaks for itself. I think we should all take a break, and wait until the end of the year to resume our talks on Baker. If you don't like the team after a year of Baker, then you have a reason to complain. Until that point, we have no idea what he can do with this team.

I'm not a Baker fan at all, but I agree with your point of wait and see how he does. As much as I don't like his managerial style, his winning record and mlb managerial experience are far greater attributes than anything any of the last half a dozen to a dozen managers the Reds tried to pass off as mlb caliber.

Unfortunately BR is right there are plenty of people ready to criticize Baker for the way he sneezes, but there is nothing to do but ignore that type on the topic.

mlbfan30
02-28-2008, 05:05 PM
I bash Baker, but don't dismiss it because you don't agree with the idea. I put reasonable and logical arguments behind them. I don't just make a blank statement with no facts.

The approach he's doing is fine. The problem is that he's dismissing Bruce at CF because he doesn't view him as a leadoff hitter. He's stuck in convention that CF = leadoff and it's important to have one.

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 05:25 PM
I bash Baker, but don't dismiss it because you don't agree with the idea. I put reasonable and logical arguments behind them. I don't just make a blank statement with no facts.

The approach he's doing is fine. The problem is that he's dismissing Bruce at CF because he doesn't view him as a leadoff hitter. He's stuck in convention that CF = leadoff and it's important to have one.

I don't see him dismissing Bruce in CF b/c he doesn't view him as a leadoff hitter. There are other issues with Bruce;

1. Reds are already Lefty heavy, it was an issue last year, I doubt they would have dealt Hamilton if he was righty. Aside - Mark Patrick(XM mlbradio) said last Spring Dunn told him Hamilton was the best player he ever saw. Patrick pointed @ Griffey and Dunn reasserted statement.

2. Bruce has zero mlb AB - I know he would never get any if you don't let him bat, but if he is not playing center he will not be playing everyday and that would be worse than batting everyday in AAA. Yes he must come to bigs to develop, but he also needs to bat everyday. Provided he continues to show he can hit, he will be up when an everyday position opens.

3. Outside of CF platoon who can leadoff? OBP is important, but taking pitches, not clogging up the basepath, etc must be considered.

4. Dusty wants to win. He did not come here to lose, so 1 + 2 + 3 = 4

5. Previous point on board still applies, it is Spring Training, who wouldn't be seeing what you got? four line-ups is not setting the rest of the season in stone.

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 05:25 PM
I bash Baker, but don't dismiss it because you don't agree with the idea. I put reasonable and logical arguments behind them. I don't just make a blank statement with no facts.

The approach he's doing is fine. The problem is that he's dismissing Bruce at CF because he doesn't view him as a leadoff hitter. He's stuck in convention that CF = leadoff and it's important to have one.

Im not really talking about your type of complaints. Its more about the people who are jumping to conclusions after 2 spring training games. Its spring training.

mlbfan30
02-28-2008, 05:52 PM
1. Reds are already Lefty heavy, it was an issue last year, I doubt they would have dealt Hamilton if he was righty. Aside - Mark Patrick(XM mlbradio) said last Spring Dunn told him Hamilton was the best player he ever saw. Patrick pointed @ Griffey and Dunn reasserted statement.

Lefty heavy isn't a huge deal, but it something to think about. I would rather get the better player over looking for matchups. Most Pitchers are RHP anyway, and it's possible to pinch hit/platoon for matchups during the season. But I think Bruce should be facing LHP anyway.

2. Bruce has zero mlb AB - I know he would never get any if you don't let him bat, but if he is not playing center he will not be playing everyday and that would be worse than batting everyday in AAA. Yes he must come to bigs to develop, but he also needs to bat everyday. Provided he continues to show he can hit, he will be up when an everyday position opens.

My problem is that Bruce is not playing CF. You would expect a star rookie gets to practice more at his position, but instead he's been RF. We already know how Hopper and Freel field in CF. They won't do anything new. But Bruce needs game action there and he's not getting it. Bruce is a much better hitter, and it's not really close. Dusty just is against a non CF leading off. I've looked at past Dusty lineups since 1992 or w/e and it's a HUGE trend. The CF is almost always leading off.

3. Outside of CF platoon who can leadoff? OBP is important, but taking pitches, not clogging up the basepath, etc must be considered.

Votto can. Votto is very patient and has very solid OBPs. He'll take many more pitches over Hopper and Freel. 1B as leadoff, I know that's insane. He has stolen 24 bases in 2006, and 18 in 2007. Hopper stole 28 in 2006, and 16 in 2007. Yet Hopper won't clog Bases and Votto will? Also Freel is a HORRIBLE baserunner.

4. Dusty wants to win. He did not come here to lose, so 1 + 2 + 3 = 4

So winning means not setting up the best possible lineup? What your saying makes no sense. Who's 1, who's 2, 3? I don't get it.

5. Previous point on board still applies, it is Spring Training, who wouldn't be seeing what you got? four line-ups is not setting the rest of the season in stone.

Lineups aren't final, but they represent a pattern for Dusty. That's what you do when projecting things. You look for behaviors and trends and fit the prediction into those trends. Baker's talking this year has also fit those trends. It's not JUST lineups.

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 06:06 PM
Votto has been caught stealing at a pretty high rate

mlbfan30
02-28-2008, 06:21 PM
Votto has been caught stealing at a pretty high rate

Hopper
SB-CS
2006 - 30-9
2007 - 16-6
Total - 46-15 - 75%

Votto
SB-CS
2006 - 24-7
2007 - 18-10
Total - 42-17 - 71%

Yeah, Votto is worse, but Hopper isn't great. It's not worth the difference in OBP to have Hopper batting. Votto also has a MUCH higher SLG. Votto isn't ideal either, but he's the best the Reds have. Freel wasn't bad, but Bruce should start over him. The point is, you don't start a lesser player because you think you need a "leadoff hitter"

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 06:25 PM
Hopper
SB-CS
2006 - 30-9
2007 - 16-6
Total - 46-15 - 75%

Votto
SB-CS
2006 - 24-7
2007 - 18-10
Total - 42-17 - 71%

Yeah, Votto is worse, but Hopper isn't great. It's not worth the difference in OBP to have Hopper batting. Votto also has a MUCH higher SLG. Votto isn't ideal either, but he's the best the Reds have. Freel wasn't bad, but Bruce should start over him. The point is, you don't start a lesser player because you think you need a "leadoff hitter"

Im not arguing about it really. I think Freel as a lead off hitter wouldnt be a bad thing. I dont really think much of Hopper to begin with.

Natty Redlocks
02-28-2008, 06:26 PM
SS Keppinger
1B Votto
LF Dunn
3B Encarnacion
RF Griffey
2B Phillips
CF Bruce
C Ross


That lineup every day would score approximately a zillion runs. Move Phillips to SS if you have to. Giving Bruce's ABs to Hopper and Freel is just plain nuts.

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 06:29 PM
1. Reds are already Lefty heavy, it was an issue last year, I doubt they would have dealt Hamilton if he was righty. Aside - Mark Patrick(XM mlbradio) said last Spring Dunn told him Hamilton was the best player he ever saw. Patrick pointed @ Griffey and Dunn reasserted statement.

Lefty heavy isn't a huge deal, but it something to think about. I would rather get the better player over looking for matchups. Most Pitchers are RHP anyway, and it's possible to pinch hit/platoon for matchups during the season. But I think Bruce should be facing LHP anyway.

2. Bruce has zero mlb AB - I know he would never get any if you don't let him bat, but if he is not playing center he will not be playing everyday and that would be worse than batting everyday in AAA. Yes he must come to bigs to develop, but he also needs to bat everyday. Provided he continues to show he can hit, he will be up when an everyday position opens.

My problem is that Bruce is not playing CF. You would expect a star rookie gets to practice more at his position, but instead he's been RF. We already know how Hopper and Freel field in CF. They won't do anything new. But Bruce needs game action there and he's not getting it. Bruce is a much better hitter, and it's not really close. Dusty just is against a non CF leading off. I've looked at past Dusty lineups since 1992 or w/e and it's a HUGE trend. The CF is almost always leading off.

3. Outside of CF platoon who can leadoff? OBP is important, but taking pitches, not clogging up the basepath, etc must be considered.

Votto can. Votto is very patient and has very solid OBPs. He'll take many more pitches over Hopper and Freel. 1B as leadoff, I know that's insane. He has stolen 24 bases in 2006, and 18 in 2007. Hopper stole 28 in 2006, and 16 in 2007. Yet Hopper won't clog Bases and Votto will? Also Freel is a HORRIBLE baserunner.

4. Dusty wants to win. He did not come here to lose, so 1 + 2 + 3 = 4

So winning means not setting up the best possible lineup? What your saying makes no sense. Who's 1, who's 2, 3? I don't get it.

5. Previous point on board still applies, it is Spring Training, who wouldn't be seeing what you got? four line-ups is not setting the rest of the season in stone.

Lineups aren't final, but they represent a pattern for Dusty. That's what you do when projecting things. You look for behaviors and trends and fit the prediction into those trends. Baker's talking this year has also fit those trends. It's not JUST lineups.

I cannot understand why people are always willing to discount the L/R match-ups. Every broadcaster, player, coach, manager, etc, seem to give it significant importance. Additionally, it has more to due with late inning match-ups than who is starting, forcing the other team to the Pen as often as possible is important, the Reds were unable to do that last year. Platooning Bruce is not an option, he needs to play everyday, here or Louisville. And if he is up here, they shouldn't be pinch hitting for him. Grif and Dunn will not sit, so vs LHP, Votto will sit, so you need a Leadoff hitter.

Hopper can use a little work in CF, and Bruce will get it either way here or in Louisville. I haven't seen Bruce in person, but from what I have heard he is already better in CF than Hopper, but again, for winning this year Hopper needs the time in CF if he going to play there(IMO he has poor reads off the bat and jumps in the wrong direction).

Votto leading off I can see it, but not against LHP, not while slumping(it will happen) as a rookie, so @ best you have only solved 60% of the games? First ten games on schedule, Reds likely see Randy Johnson, Jamie Moyer, Cole Hamels, and Chris Capuano, all Lefties. PLus every team will have about 2 more in the Pen.

My apologies on the math, my point was, Dusty wanting to win(my point #4) is the reason why my points(#1, #2, #3) will have him batting the CF platoon @ lead off. So he wants to win, so you cannot be lefty heavy, you cannot bat a rookie leadoff, there is no one else to lead off.

I would be interested in how often Dusty batted a Rookie @ leadoff, did you see a pattern there? I'd bet the trend would be just as prevalent. Either way, winning short term or long term means Bruce needs to play everyday and current options don't have him playing everyday in the bigs, not without a RHP leading off when Votto cannot.

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 06:37 PM
Vottos problems with LH pitching isnt being able to hit them really its being able to hit them for power. I think his split for v. LH pitching is like .270/.360/.400 something like that.

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 06:39 PM
Also, I'm not arguing Bruce shouldn't be up, or Freel/Hopper are better hitters, or worse hitters are better than the unproven Bruce. My response was to the statement that Baker isn't using Bruce as CF because he cannot lead off. With Hopper & Freel(who are bench player on most other teams), all the lefties, and inexperienced talent is the reason his line-ups are curious. In order to win he has to work with what he's got(and let Bruce bat everyday in some uniform).

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 06:41 PM
Vottos problems with LH pitching isnt being able to hit them really its being able to hit them for power. I think his split for v. LH pitching is like .270/.360/.400 something like that.

You really think Joey Votto leading off everyday, against Lefties and/or while slumping, is going to win more games than lose?

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 06:42 PM
You really think Joey Votto leading off everyday, against Lefties and/or while slumping, is going to win more games than lose?

Im just saying its not like hes an auto out against lefties.

mlbfan30
02-28-2008, 06:49 PM
Me
Votto - L
BP/EE - R
Dunn - L
EE/BP - R
Griffey - L
Bruce - L
Gonzo - R
Ross - R

When Keppinger starts, I'd have him 2nd, move BP 4th, and allow EE to split Griffey/Bruce

Baker
Hopper/Freel - R
Gonzo/Keppinger - R
Griffey - L
BP - R
Dunn - L
EE - R
Votto - L
Ross - R

I think it's ironic how Baker will say... no walks is a "beautiful thing" when referring to pitching, but also say walks are overrated referring to hitters. Think about that.

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/ctrent.html
Dusty on Reds' 6-1 victory - around 50 seconds

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 06:50 PM
Im just saying its not like hes an auto out against lefties.

Far from an auto out, but he isn't leading off versus Lefties in a projected line-up, and neither is Bruce. So who is, given we are going to try and win every game, we are not going to be beaten by giving away entire innings late to Lefty specialist, we are not going to lose the game defensively with substandard players playing out of position giving extra outs late, etc?

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 06:53 PM
Far from an auto out, but he isn't leading off versus Lefties in a projected line-up, and neither is Bruce. So who is, given we are going to try and win every game, we are not going to be beaten by giving away entire innings late to Lefty specialist, we are not going to lose the game defensively with substandard players playing out of position giving extra outs late, etc?

I think we have people arguing four different things right now.

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 06:54 PM
Me
Votto - L
BP/EE - R
Dunn - L
EE/BP - R
Griffey - L
Bruce - L
Gonzo - R
Ross - R

When Keppinger starts, I'd have him 2nd, move BP 4th, and allow EE to split Griffey/Bruce



Any line-up without Freel and Hopper, that splits L/R, and has everyday players playing everyday works for me. This one just needs a v. LHP counterpart.

757690
02-28-2008, 07:37 PM
Me
Votto - L
BP/EE - R
Dunn - L
EE/BP - R
Griffey - L
Bruce - L
Gonzo - R
Ross - R

When Keppinger starts, I'd have him 2nd, move BP 4th, and allow EE to split Griffey/Bruce

Baker
Hopper/Freel - R
Gonzo/Keppinger - R
Griffey - L
BP - R
Dunn - L
EE - R
Votto - L
Ross - R

I think it's ironic how Baker will say... no walks is a "beautiful thing" when referring to pitching, but also say walks are overrated referring to hitters. Think about that.

http://www.1530homer.com/pages/ctrent.html
Dusty on Reds' 6-1 victory - around 50 seconds

This is how Fay predicts Baker's lineup will go, and the reasons why, based on what Baker has said.

"I just finished up my notebook for tommorow. The lead is on the lineup. My best guess (provided Jay Bruce doesn't win the center field job):

Freel/Hopper CF
Hatteberg/Votto 1B
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Gonzalez SS
Ross/Valentin C

That's based on some things Dusty Baker said:

On who hits leadoff when Norris Hopper or Ryan Freel doesn't start: “I hope one or other would be in the game,” Baker said. “That’s my hope. I don’t know many teams that have three (leadoff guys).”

On the lineup in general: “It probably won’t be a whole lot different than last year. Without Josh Hamilton, it will be different.”

On who hits second: “It’s probably equally important who the second hitter’s going to be. That’s a big, big spot. It’s a smart spot, a contact spot, a move-the-ball-around spot, an unselfish spot. It’s probably one of the more spots in the lineup. It depends who’s playing, you don’t want it to be a power guy. Gonzalez, Keppinger, Hatteberg. You’d like a little more speed.”"


No one knows what lineup Baker will use, but Fay, who has been right next to Baker for over a week, thinks that he will put Hatte/Votto in the two spot.

I know you are basing you opinion on the fact that Baker has mostly used a CF and a SS/2B for the first two spots, but if you look at the teams he had, most of the time, those were the best options for him. Look at the players he had. And he has used players like Derek Bell in the 2 spot for an extended period of time, when that was the best option. I would not assume that Baker will use Gonzo in the 2 spot, at least not for most of the season.


And concerning his quote about no walks for his pitchers. Doesn't that tell you that he does value walks, and understands their importance? The only time Baker speaks negatively about OBP is when he is talking about the middle of the lineup, and I agree with him on that. I have not heard him say that a leadoff hitter should not "clog" the bases.

mlbfan30
02-28-2008, 07:45 PM
Baker says, "Gonzalez, Keppinger, Hatteberg"

I don't include Hatty since Votto probably will be the starter. That leaves Gonzalez, Keppinger for the 2nd spot. Fay was the one not following what Baker said by including Votto.

Bip Roberts
02-28-2008, 08:31 PM
Honestly you guys are killing yourselves by being that worried about it right now.

757690
02-28-2008, 08:50 PM
Baker says, "Gonzalez, Keppinger, Hatteberg"

I don't include Hatty since Votto probably will be the starter. That leaves Gonzalez, Keppinger for the 2nd spot. Fay was the one not following what Baker said by including Votto.

First I do want to say that I do like your lineup better than the even one Fay says Baker likes, and I personally think that this is Bakers weakest point, that you need a good bat handler, rather than a good OBP for batting 2.

That said, Bip is right in that there is no need to get worked up over this, yet. We are going only by what Baker says to the media. Anyone who has been in clubhouse knows that managers say all sorts of things to the media, and then do something else. Let's drop this for now, and see what the Reds lineup looks like after the first month of the season. Who knows Kenny Lofton could be leading off?

GoReds33
02-28-2008, 08:55 PM
I expect to see Valentin, and Ross platoon more often behind the plate, but it's not likely they will split time. I hope to see EE bat second. I think he has good speed. I think Bruce will develop into that two hitter by midseason.

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 09:27 PM
Who knows Kenny Lofton could be leading off?

Another reason, why Hopper/Freel are playing CF in the preseason, to see which side of the platoon to keep opposite Lofton.

mlbfan30
02-28-2008, 09:42 PM
I don't think we need to (or I need to) just stop talking about this. Lineup construction is always a big topic, and its just something to do and see various opinions. I know Baker isn't set, but what I'm doing is showing trends you should pay attention to.

RSNtransplant
02-28-2008, 10:05 PM
I don't think we need to (or I need to) just stop talking about this. Lineup construction is always a big topic, and its just something to do and see various opinions. I know Baker isn't set, but what I'm doing is showing trends you should pay attention to.

Agree with this, there is only so many spring training games I can listen to and article to read. Bouncing ideas and observations around builds greater understanding. This is good discussion.

BLEEDS
02-29-2008, 01:30 AM
This is how Fay predicts Baker's lineup will go, and the reasons why, based on what Baker has said.

"I just finished up my notebook for tommorow. The lead is on the lineup. My best guess (provided Jay Bruce doesn't win the center field job):

Freel/Hopper CF
Hatteberg/Votto 1B
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Gonzalez SS
Ross/Valentin C

That's based on some things Dusty Baker said:

On who hits leadoff when Norris Hopper or Ryan Freel doesn't start: “I hope one or other would be in the game,” Baker said. “That’s my hope. I don’t know many teams that have three (leadoff guys).”

On the lineup in general: “It probably won’t be a whole lot different than last year. Without Josh Hamilton, it will be different.”

On who hits second: “It’s probably equally important who the second hitter’s going to be. That’s a big, big spot. It’s a smart spot, a contact spot, a move-the-ball-around spot, an unselfish spot. It’s probably one of the more spots in the lineup. It depends who’s playing, you don’t want it to be a power guy. Gonzalez, Keppinger, Hatteberg. You’d like a little more speed.”"


You're right. This is also the first POST of this thread... :eek:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

757690
02-29-2008, 02:20 AM
You're right. This is also the first POST of this thread... :eek:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

My apologies, didn't mean to steal from you. Just got lazy.

BLEEDS
02-29-2008, 05:29 PM
My apologies, didn't mean to steal from you. Just got lazy.

Hah! No problem, was just noting how these threads can come full circle sometimes... lol:beerme:

PEACE

-BLEEDS