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DoogMinAmo
02-29-2008, 01:53 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080229/BIZ01/302290098

Banks to start April 2
BY KEITH T. REED | KREED@ENQUIRER.COM

The developers of The Banks will announce this afternoon that they have secured all $74 million needed to finance the first phase of construction, clearing the way for an April 2 groundbreaking on the project.

"This is great news. It means The Banks project will definitely advance," said Cincinnati Mayor Mark Mallory. "I'm excited that Carter/Dawson (the developers) will be doing the project and I'm looking forward to a great development.''

The financing comes on the last day of a month-long extension of a deadline for the developers, Carter & Associates Commercial Services LLC and the Harold A. Dawson Co., and could signal the end of a decade-long wait for activity at the barren riverfront site between Great American Ball Park and Paul Brown Stadium.

It also means Carter and Dawson made good on their promise to weather a tough economy marked by difficult borrowing requirements for developers, to complete the deal. The developers’ agreement with the city and Hamilton County called for them to have commitments for all the money needed to build phase 1A of the project, to include 300 apartments and 70,000 square feet of retail atop a garage at the corner of Second and Main streets, by the end of January.

That deadline passed with Carter and Dawson still between $12 million and $14 million short. The city and county agreed to give them an extension. Today’s announcement should also include details on the sources of funding, which have not yet been disclosed.

If the April construction date holds, the vacant land at that spot will begin a long transformation into a mini-neighborhood along the Ohio River, featuring apartments, parking, retail and office space.

Bip Roberts
02-29-2008, 01:56 PM
I cant wait for the next hold up!

Hap
02-29-2008, 02:12 PM
What are they going to do with all the crackheads, bums and hookers?

LoganBuck
02-29-2008, 02:14 PM
What are they going to do with all the crackheads, bums and hookers?

Open a museum in the honor, or convert the Freedom Center to transient housing.

Bip Roberts
02-29-2008, 02:16 PM
Ill take the hookers

GoReds33
02-29-2008, 02:41 PM
I can't wait until they get some good restraunts down there, so I have something to do after the game.

Roy Tucker
02-29-2008, 02:48 PM
Very glad to see this is moving forward.

According to this web site, Phase 1A will begin with blocks 4 and 8/11B.

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2007/11/banks-block-by-block.html

Ltlabner
02-29-2008, 03:11 PM
Will the trolley system have a stop there?

Glad to hear some progress is being made.

SunDeck
02-29-2008, 03:17 PM
Great, now where will the circus go?

Chip R
02-29-2008, 03:18 PM
I can't wait until they get some good restraunts down there, so I have something to do after the game.


You should live so long.

OldRightHander
02-29-2008, 04:35 PM
I cant wait for the next hold up!

I get held up every time I buy diesel.

KronoRed
02-29-2008, 04:46 PM
Will the trolley system have a stop there?


It's a STREETCAR
http://www.tndwest.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/streetcar.jpg
not a TROLLEY!
http://www.tahoesbest.com/Transportation/images/TTD-TRolley.jpg

Sorry :D

Jharb74
02-29-2008, 05:11 PM
Maybe they can finally get the subway working, that they started building, way back when.

paintmered
02-29-2008, 05:24 PM
Will the trolley system have a stop there?

Glad to hear some progress is being made.

1. It is not a trolley. It is a streetcar. A trolley runs on rubber tires, streetcars use rails. Only the latter historically stimulates economical development. (Krono already beat me to this point)

2. Yes, the streetcar will stop at The Banks right next to GABP.

Ltlabner
02-29-2008, 06:16 PM
1. It is not a trolley. It is a streetcar. A trolley runs on rubber tires, streetcars use rails. Only the latter historically stimulates economical development. (Krono already beat me to this point)

We'lllllll exxxcccccccuuuuuuuuusssssseeeeeeeeeeee meeeeee....

http://www.solarnavigator.net/films_movies_actors/actors_films_images/Steve_Martin_portrait.jpg

pedro
02-29-2008, 08:05 PM
It's a STREETCAR
http://www.tndwest.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/streetcar.jpg
not a TROLLEY!


That's one Portland's very own.

Reds Freak
03-01-2008, 12:53 AM
I can't wait until they get some good restraunts down there, so I have something to do after the game.

Honestly my man, if you can't find a good restaurant downtown, you're blind. There has been an amazing rebirth of downtown and Over the Rhine the past couple of years and the Banks and the streetcar will only add to that..

Bip Roberts
03-01-2008, 12:54 AM
Honestly my man, if you can't find a good restaurant downtown, you're blind. There has been an amazing rebirth of downtown and Over the Rhine the past couple of years and the Banks and the streetcar will only add to that..

I think he means kinda within walking distance.

Reds Freak
03-01-2008, 01:07 AM
I think he means kinda within walking distance.

I would hope the Fountain Square area, where a bunch of good restaurants are located, is walking distance from the stadium for you. Plus, you bring up another great argument for the need for a streetcar system!

Bip Roberts
03-01-2008, 01:11 AM
I would hope the Fountain Square area, where a bunch of good restaurants are located, is walking distance from the stadium for you. Plus, you bring up another great argument for the need for a streetcar system!

Yea fountain square is depending on where you park. The Banks are just going to be a nice central place.

Reds Freak
03-01-2008, 01:13 AM
[QUOTE=Ltlabner;1561529]We'lllllll exxxcccccccuuuuuuuuusssssseeeeeeeeeeee meeeeee....

[QUOTE]

Don't take offense, a lot of streetcar supporters get upset when folks refer to it as a trolley because most streetcar opponents will call it a trolley with a negative connotation...

GoReds33
03-01-2008, 11:47 AM
Honestly my man, if you can't find a good restaurant downtown, you're blind. There has been an amazing rebirth of downtown and Over the Rhine the past couple of years and the Banks and the streetcar will only add to that..Don't get me wrong, there are good restraunts, but when I park near the stadium, I don't want to have to walk back to the car, and find another place to pay to park. I'm way too lazy to walk to fountain square. I just think that having an entire experience down along the water would be great, if you could go to a game, and then get some good food all along the river. I just hate giving my money to Newport, knowing all that stuff over there should be in Cincinnati in the first place.

Caveat Emperor
03-01-2008, 05:08 PM
1. It is not a trolley. It is a streetcar. A trolley runs on rubber tires, streetcars use rails. Only the latter historically stimulates economical development. (Krono already beat me to this point)

Though, after talking with a fellow N-Ohio / S-Michigan resident, I realized that there was another city that tried to stimulate economic development with public transportation...

Now, the Detroit People Mover is more of a joke than anything else.

DoogMinAmo
03-01-2008, 07:37 PM
Though, after talking with a fellow N-Ohio / S-Michigan resident, I realized that there was another city that tried to stimulate economic development with public transportation...

Now, the Detroit People Mover is more of a joke than anything else.

Are you really equating Detroit's people mover to a street car?

If not, I apologize in advance, but for others unsure:

A streetcar is a circulator to replace a car providing stops throughout a neighborhood(s) similar to a bus but more permanent; a people mover is either the equivolent of Roxanne Qualls' bastardization of the Cincinnati streetcar plan, a point to point destination transportation system or as in Detroit's case, an elevated train removed from the ground and the neighborhood that, as the name implies, "moves people."

The former has been proven time and time again to stimulate the economy, and the only city that has built an initial phase and decided to abondon the project due to poor results is Buffalo, NY. One! (And it was Buffalo. Sorry in advance to those from there, but is a rather depressing city to those who visit it)

The latter is either meant to replace cars on highways, reduce emissions, and requires a strong destination draw to be successful, or (Detroit)is an attempt at recreating the streetcar, but curiously removes it to the extent that it no longer interacts with the neghborhood (a big reason for treetcar success).

I am truly curious if Detroit expected/intended the people mover as an economic stimulus, or if it was meant to tie the neighborhoods together better.

Regarding the trolley/ streetcar semantics, another problem those close to the issue have is the streetcar is modern and sleek, while a trolley is considered nostalgic, yet outdated. As strong as Cincinnati's history is, this "fix" should not be considered going back to one's roots out of desperation or nostalgia, but because it is a proven method for redevelopment and can make cost of living decrease, and make neighborhoods more attractive.

I know for a fact the day the sreetcar is approved, I am investing in OTR, and it will only add onto the incredible momentum that has started.

Caveat Emperor
03-01-2008, 08:35 PM
Are you really equating Detroit's people mover to a street car?

If not, I apologize in advance, but for others unsure:

A streetcar is a circulator to replace a car providing stops throughout a neighborhood(s) similar to a bus but more permanent; a people mover is either the equivolent of Roxanne Qualls' bastardization of the Cincinnati streetcar plan, a point to point destination transportation system or as in Detroit's case, an elevated train removed from the ground and the neighborhood that, as the name implies, "moves people."

The Detroit People Mover is a 2.9 mile piece of closed track that operates as a loop within the city of Detroit. There are 13 stations within that loop -- basically placing a station once every 1200 feet.

Like the Streetcar, the DPM was proposed as the 'start' of a larger mass transit system that never developed. Redevelopment of the areas surrounding stations never actually occurred either. Ridership of the DPM was expected to be roughly 60,000 daily, but right now is at roughly 5,000 per day.

Having been a former resident of the N-OH area and a frequent visitor to Detroit, I can say that most residents consider the DPM to be a total joke. Nobody rides it, and most people consider the DPM to be an unsafe method of transportation.

A streetcar is a nice, forward thinking idea, but the city should go to school on what happened in Detroit instead of wishfully thinking that they can follow Portlands model in a city with a COMPLETELY different demographic, location, and population base.

Reds Freak
03-01-2008, 10:05 PM
Don't get me wrong, there are good restraunts, but when I park near the stadium, I don't want to have to walk back to the car, and find another place to pay to park. I'm way too lazy to walk to fountain square. I just think that having an entire experience down along the water would be great, if you could go to a game, and then get some good food all along the river. I just hate giving my money to Newport, knowing all that stuff over there should be in Cincinnati in the first place.

Sounds great GoReds, I usually park at Fountain Square for Reds games so I'm used to walking there after the game and going to a few establishments in that area. You're right, the Banks will be a great place to enjoy after the game. My hope is for the Banks not to turn into a suburban mall playground. Hopefully, the Banks is distinct, unique, "Cincinnati" and with its own character.

Doog, it's wonderful to hear of your interest in OTR. Have you seen the Gateway Quarter lately? That area looks amazing!

DoogMinAmo
03-01-2008, 11:15 PM
The Detroit People Mover is a 2.9 mile piece of closed track that operates as a loop within the city of Detroit. There are 13 stations within that loop -- basically placing a station once every 1200 feet.

Like the Streetcar, the DPM was proposed as the 'start' of a larger mass transit system that never developed. Redevelopment of the areas surrounding stations never actually occurred either. Ridership of the DPM was expected to be roughly 60,000 daily, but right now is at roughly 5,000 per day.

Having been a former resident of the N-OH area and a frequent visitor to Detroit, I can say that most residents consider the DPM to be a total joke. Nobody rides it, and most people consider the DPM to be an unsafe method of transportation.

A streetcar is a nice, forward thinking idea, but the city should go to school on what happened in Detroit instead of wishfully thinking that they can follow Portlands model in a city with a COMPLETELY different demographic, location, and population base.

http://www.thepeoplemover.com/WE-LL-TAKE-YOU-THERE!.id.2.htm

I have a bit of an idea what it is, I am by no means an expert. But it is in all essence a people mover/ transportation device, not a street car.

The DPM reminds me of Chicago's "L". It is good for transportation, but its design is not ideal for development, beyond the very important removal from the street. Checking out the route it seems some very important principles behind Cincinnati's route are lost/ not used.

-There is a visual connection that must be attained and maintained at any point in order for it to orient and truly establish itself in the neighborhood. The DPM is in a round loop spread out around the city. While length of track is similar to Cincinnati, the one proposed here is very narrow, making it easy to get off, walk a block or two, maintain visual connection without disorientation, explore, and return "safely." Good for development, not as good for people moving.

-Redundancy of blocks served: importantly the realization that redevelopment occurs largely within 3 blocks of rail tracks, so a close parallel loop strengthens the redevelopment/ affected area with a strong core, and then slowly works out from the center. Good for development, not as good fro people moving.

-Cincy's route is service and destination oriented: Findlay Market for some groceries, Gateway Quarter for some shopping, Banks/GABP for a game, Fountain Square for dinner or a drink, Main street to party afterwards. Detroit's may connect the dots as well, but the connections seem more event or tourist oriented. Granted, I am not a Detroit resident, so maybe that is an outsider's take, but it is an observation nevertheless.


That much being said, I am sure the PM is a plus for those in the city, and 5K ridership is nothing to ignore, especially with their low numbers of downtown residence.

But do not discount most importantly the connection with the street. Remember when the Skywalk was heralded as the future and a great move for Cincinnati and others? Now very few remain nation-wide, as they have effectively killed downtowns. The connection to the street was lost, fewere people around means crime takes over, which means even fewer want to show up.

Not that the DPM is killing Detroit, it is just that if you elevate everyone above the street, how can that help the city? You do not see what retailers are available along the route. You do not see people walking. You are not within, but above. A streetcar focuses attention on the route itself, while elevated trains are destination and station oriented. The effective area is a fraction with one versus the other. Lower the DPM, it works a ton better.

Demographics and studies were performed extensively, exhaustingly, and thoroughly. From what little I know, it seems much has been learned from the DPM and the like.

And who is to say that Cincinnati is so much closer to Detroit than Portland (other than geographically)?

DoogMinAmo
03-01-2008, 11:18 PM
Sounds great GoReds, I usually park at Fountain Square for Reds games so I'm used to walking there after the game and going to a few establishments in that area. You're right, the Banks will be a great place to enjoy after the game. My hope is for the Banks not to turn into a suburban mall playground. Hopefully, the Banks is distinct, unique, "Cincinnati" and with its own character.

Doog, it's wonderful to hear of your interest in OTR. Have you seen the Gateway Quarter lately? That area looks amazing!

Yep, amazing now, and from what I hear in the near future it is only going to get better and better. Rumors have a brownie boutique on its way, in addition to Lavomatic that just opened, an outdoor furniture store on its way, a furniture store that just opened, a coffee house, and a couple more restaurants. Really exciting stuff, not to mention Grammer's is open again!

DoogMinAmo
04-15-2008, 01:46 PM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080415/NEWS01/804150402/1056/COL02

To those skeptical until ground gets turned...

CrackerJack
04-15-2008, 02:30 PM
After going to Findlay Market Saturday for the beer tastin' (loved the new Barbarosa from Moerlein) - am hopeful the street car system will get the extension paths proposed, as I think they're critical.

Reaching up into Clifton, to Union Terminal, the riverfront and Newport, as well as down Columbia Parkway, seems to be what may make the whole thing tick.

Of course, conservative Cincinnatians will fear it will just serve to shuttle criminals out of OTR to out-lying areas with ease to prey on those at the Levee and the surrounding neighborhoods - but that won't happen in this case. Idiots like Deters or Leis, I believe, compared it to "Jurassic Park."

To be honest I want OTR back, my relatives helped build that area and lived there at one time. there are so many incredible buildings just going to waste. The poor that are there now, were "put there" by the government in the 1950's, they have no claim to it. I certainly am not into just evicting people en masse, but de-centralizing that area over time as is happening now.

One trip to Findlay opens one's eyes to the vast potential of downtown Cincy and OTR - it's unique and probably one of the last, large treasure troves of Victorian Italianate architecture, among other things.

I would LOVE to be able to hop on a street car from our home on weekends and hit Findlay for some fresh, regional, organic produce, and have a beer or two at one of the breweries that are starting to pop up again.

If it fails -fine - but not trying to save that area and reinvest in the downtown metro area is not an option for a growing number of people who grew up here and don't want to see the city turn into Detroit.

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2008, 06:34 PM
Of course, conservative Cincinnatians will fear it will just serve to shuttle criminals out of OTR to out-lying areas with ease to prey on those at the Levee and the surrounding neighborhoods - but that won't happen in this case. Idiots like Deters or Leis, I believe, compared it to "Jurassic Park."

More likely they're afraid that economic revitalization will never occur and you'll end up with vacant street cars circling through OTR because nobody feels safe riding them through those neighborhood.

Which I think is a very fair point and valid concern.

CrackerJack
04-15-2008, 08:55 PM
More likely they're afraid that economic revitalization will never occur and you'll end up with vacant street cars circling through OTR because nobody feels safe riding them through those neighborhood.

Which I think is a very fair point and valid concern.

I've taken the #17 and #56 Metro through the heart of OTR dozens and dozens of times over the years when I lived in Clifton and worked downtown - never once had a problem nor did I feel "threatened."

These are not "trolleys" they are enclosed cars that would run along with the Metro service, with fewer stops and quicker travel, and help to eliminate the parking problems inherent for so long in a city lacking mass transit of any kind outside of the small time Metro service.

I was impressed with the way Findlay Market has been cleaned up and the adjacent, free parking lot there now. It's a really neat area, reminded me of a mini Pike's Place Market in Seattle without the dock and the bay.

Also that side of OTR is largely vacant and safe, with a couple of planned breweries/distributorships/distilleries and bars. What a great thing for the breweries to return there again. It won't happen overnight but I commend the people brave enough to get it started.

People on the radio making blanket statements without much, if any, knowledge of the area, shouldn't provide opinions on things they know nothing about. They aren't helping anyone.

I can say the Sheriff patrol sweeps this same group championed (which the lame City Council rejected over $400k this past year I believe) really helped to clean up the area, to the point it's now able to move forward on the west and east sides. You have to actually go down there to see what they're talking about. The potential is really exciting and it should be supported.

Let the chickens and people afraid to take back the city's most distinct and cultured neighborhood stay in the burbs and pay $4 a gallon for gas and $100 a month for parking - who needs 'em. Their way hasn't worked and never will.

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2008, 09:47 PM
People on the radio making blanket statements without much, if any, knowledge of the area, shouldn't provide opinions

In the case of Deters and Leis -- they both have access to crime reports, and they both can read.

vaticanplum
04-15-2008, 11:33 PM
True story: friends of mine moved to Cincinnati after an adulthood away. Accustomed to cities, they moved downtown, and one weekend morning decided to visit Findlay market since they'd heard it was the downtown thing to do. She was living in the old Shilito's building so they thought they could walk there easily.

They start on their trek north, directly through OTR, and pretty quickly become lost. A drug dealer approaches them. These kids are mid-20s, both strawberry blond, extremely round-faced and innocent-looking. The dealer asks them what they're looking for and goes through his list of options. They're a bit taken aback and say, no, we're just trying to get to the market.

The dealer is appalled. He asks them what the hell they're doing walking through this neighborhood, and proceeds to grab them by the arm and escort them down to the market so that no one else gives them any trouble.

I have no desire to romanticize a neighborhood with serious troubles, and sure, on another day, these kids might have gotten in some serious trouble. But there's a part of me that can't help but take note of -- and love -- a city where even the drug dealers are willing to help the tourists. It's not as terrifying out there as we think.

redsmetz
04-16-2008, 02:49 PM
My daughter recently wrote a blog piece about the city's subway which never came to fruition. As she does not drive and gets around by public transportation, it saddened her that we missed an opportunity way back when to have made a big difference on the city.

She wrote:


The tour itself was amazing and I highly recommend it to others. But as much as I was fascinated by the history, I was mostly saddened by how different my city would be, how different my childhood would have been, how different my current life would be if this subway plan had succeeded rather than failed. When they flashed up the proposed subway route during the pre-tour slideshow, I spotted the "Winton Place" marker on the map and cried a little inside. What if I'd been able to hop a subway 6 blocks from my house to go downtown to the library or a Reds game? Or over to my favorite bookstore in Oakley? By now the subway would have been expanded, I'm sure. Where could I get today from Clifton? I wonder if Ohio would be losing so many young people if we had a subway in Cincinnati today?

The entire blog entry is at http://thefinestmuffins.blogspot.com/2008/04/illustration-friday-fail.html along with her quick sketch of the tour (very barebones sketch).

I think the trolley system has a possible upside, but it should be seen as an overall panacea for a desperately needed mass transist system that servces the entire tri-state region (one of the roadblocks to some of the funding, IMO).

And I concur with those of you about OTR - there's some good going on down there despite it's many clear problems.

Reds Freak
04-16-2008, 04:17 PM
I have to agree with the remarks about Findlay Market. I went there for the first time not too long ago and came away incredibly impressed. It's probably the most eclectic and diverse place in Cincinnati. I've never been to Pike Place Market in Seattle, but Findlay Market is so different from anything else in Cincinnati, it almost feels like you're on vacation. Not to mention the selection of food and other shops beats any supermarket or big boxer. I've got my eye on the Banks the next few years when it's time to move again and hopefully will be making many more Findlay Market trips via the streetcar...