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reds44
03-02-2008, 12:24 PM
The Reds announced they signed Juan Duran, a 16-year-old outfielder from Dominican Republic. It's first I remember them announcing a Latin American signing. "We like him a lot," Wayne Krivsky said.

Apparently, Baseball America is planning on making a big deal of the signing. The competition for Dominican players has picked up lately.

-Fay

Bip Roberts
03-02-2008, 12:27 PM
So young

GoReds33
03-02-2008, 12:28 PM
So young...he must be good.

dougdirt
03-02-2008, 12:29 PM
Not the first 16 year old they signed this year.

Wonder how much he signed for the highest I recall the Reds paying for an International FA this year was $200,000

Bip Roberts
03-02-2008, 12:30 PM
Id like to see why they are making this a big deal

dougdirt
03-02-2008, 12:30 PM
Id like to see why they are making this a big deal

My guess, they payed him at least $400,000 if not more.

edabbs44
03-02-2008, 12:31 PM
Id like to see why they are making this a big deal

Maybe he was highly sought after.

This is the kind of stuff they need to be doing.

GoReds33
03-02-2008, 12:32 PM
I hope he's a highly sought after player. We need a little more more outfield depth. Maybe he plays center field, and could be a backup play for Stubbs.

OnBaseMachine
03-02-2008, 12:33 PM
Maybe he was highly sought after.

This is the kind of stuff they need to be doing.

Exactly. I love it. Instead of signing guys like Stanton and Hammond, they need to use that money on young Dominicans like so. IIRC the Reds were very close to signing Miguel Cabrera but Lindner wouldn't pay an extra 25,000 or so to get him.

Bip Roberts
03-02-2008, 12:33 PM
Maybe he was highly sought after.

This is the kind of stuff they need to be doing.

Yea thats why I wonder

SMcGavin
03-02-2008, 12:33 PM
Well I know nothing about the guy, but it's good to see us spending money to add talent to the farm system. If we are paying him enough to make this something we announce, somebody in the organization must think the kid is pretty good.

Bip Roberts
03-02-2008, 12:34 PM
Power of Walt?

OnBaseMachine
03-02-2008, 12:36 PM
Power of Walt?

Doubt it. I don't remember the Cardinals ever signing any big time Latin talents. This is Wayne Krivsky, not Walt.

Bip Roberts
03-02-2008, 12:38 PM
Doubt it. I don't remember the Cardinals ever signing any big time Latin talents. This is Wayne Krivsky, not Walt.

:(

OnBaseMachine
03-02-2008, 12:38 PM
:(

What's that supposed to mean?

Bip Roberts
03-02-2008, 12:39 PM
What's that supposed to mean?

I was sad because you shot me down so easily :laugh:

OnBaseMachine
03-02-2008, 02:48 PM
Hopefully we get some information on this kid later on today from Fay or the Reds website. Baseball America only puts out new stuff Monday-Friday so we should get some info from them tomorrow on Duran.

OnBaseMachine
03-02-2008, 03:01 PM
In addition to signing Duran, below is a link to Doug's site that lists all the new International signings the Reds have recently. Duran is not on the list since he just signed. Once guy on the list who sticks out to me is 16 year old RHP Carlos Tineo. 16 years old and he's already 6'5" and 195 pounds. I'll be keeping a close eye on him over the next few years.

http://redsminorleagues.com/blog/2008/02/23/new-class-of-prospects-for-2008/

lollipopcurve
03-02-2008, 05:13 PM
We'll see if the kid was a highly contested sign. May have just turned 16, the legal age for signing, and the Reds pounced immediately.

Nice to see activity on the international front -- if they don't go spending big in the draft, part of the reason is a signing like this. Consider this kid part of the 2008 crop.

reds44
03-02-2008, 05:56 PM
In addition to signing Duran, below is a link to Doug's site that lists all the new International signings the Reds have recently. Duran is not on the list since he just signed. Once guy on the list who sticks out to me is 16 year old RHP Carlos Tineo. 16 years old and he's already 6'5" and 195 pounds. I'll be keeping a close eye on him over the next few years.

http://redsminorleagues.com/blog/2008/02/23/new-class-of-prospects-for-2008/
6-5, 195 at age 16????

Wow.

OnBaseMachine
03-02-2008, 06:12 PM
6-5, 195 at age 16????

Wow.

Yup. I'd love to know how hard he throws right now. With him being only 16 years old and having such a projectible body type, he could probably add another 4-5 mph to his fastball before he turns 21 years old.

Also nice to see some shortstops signed. Mariekson Gregorius is supposedly a pretty good prospect too. IIRC the Reds beat out the Yankees for his services. Jose Sugilio is another intriging SS - just turned 18 over the offseason and is listed at 6'3" 165. Pretty room to fill out and add power.

And another interesting pitcher is Jesus Adames. He just turned 17 years old in late January and is listed at 6'4" and 195 pounds. The Reds did some pretty good scouting this year it looks like. I'm still excited to read more about Juan Duran - I'm sure we'll get some more info on him tomorrow from Baseball America.

PuffyPig
03-02-2008, 08:22 PM
I hope he's a highly sought after player. We need a little more more outfield depth. Maybe he plays center field, and could be a backup play for Stubbs.


When you sign a 16 year old player, you ar signing for talent, not for positional need.

He's 6-7 years away. He could conceivably replace Stubbs when Stubbs becomes a FA.

dougdirt
03-02-2008, 08:46 PM
We'll see if the kid was a highly contested sign. May have just turned 16, the legal age for signing, and the Reds pounced immediately.

Nice to see activity on the international front -- if they don't go spending big in the draft, part of the reason is a signing like this. Consider this kid part of the 2008 crop.

Generally how it works is that when a player becomes of age to sign, the interested teams submit their offers by a specific date and then at that point the player/agent/buscone decide which one to take. Usually its the one for the most money, but sometimes players sign with the teams they like.

Like OBM said, I hope someone gets some more information on him up soon. I might have to try and get ahold of some people if nothing comes out tomorrow.

GoReds33
03-02-2008, 08:51 PM
When you sign a 16 year old player, you ar signing for talent, not for positional need.

He's 6-7 years away. He could conceivably replace Stubbs when Stubbs becomes a FA.I know. I'm factoring in that Stubbs won't be in the majors for another 2-3 years minimum. I'm just saying that it gives us a little depth, so we don't have to rest all our hopes on Stubbs.

Blue
03-02-2008, 08:51 PM
I presume that despite being 16 years old, these players are still on 6-year minor league contracts?

GoReds33
03-02-2008, 08:53 PM
I presume that despite being 16 years old, these players are still on 6-year minor league contracts?IIRC, there are special rules if you go into the minors under a certain age.

MikeS21
03-02-2008, 08:57 PM
I wonder if this one of those "20 year old" 16 year olds that Latin America is famous for? ;)

Blue
03-02-2008, 09:21 PM
IIRC, there are special rules if you go into the minors under a certain age.

Ahh, I see. That's good.

*BaseClogger*
03-02-2008, 09:30 PM
Doubt it. I don't remember the Cardinals ever signing any big time Latin talents. This is Wayne Krivsky, not Walt.

who signed Pujols?

EDIT: I now see he was drafted--does anyone know why when he is from the Dominican Republic?

Cedric
03-02-2008, 09:35 PM
who signed Pujols?

EDIT: I now see he was drafted--does anyone know why when he is from the Dominican Republic?

Moved to United States for junior high.

GoReds33
03-03-2008, 06:57 PM
I didn't see a story on Baseball America about him, but if somebody finds one post it.

Matt700wlw
03-03-2008, 07:34 PM
Does he get a ST invite? ;)

11larkin11
03-04-2008, 03:03 PM
I will remember this guy forever...first player I am older than.

lollipopcurve
03-04-2008, 03:11 PM
The writeup on this kid -- from BA, posted in the Sun Deck -- is pretty exciting. Another nice bit of work from the front office.

The organization has really turned things around in the Dominican. The signing of Cordero, the trade for Volquez and the emergence of Cueto -- now along with this big-$$$ amateur grab -- gives the team some real cachet down there at the moment, I'd think.

Ben
03-04-2008, 03:15 PM
Reds Spend Big For 16-Year-Old Dominican

Many thought player wasn't eligible to sign

By Ben Badler
March 4, 2008

E-mail Print


The international signing period is still four months away, but the Reds have already made a big splash in the Dominican Republic, giving a $2 million signing bonus to 16-year-old outfielder Juan Duran, a player who many thought would not be eligible to sign until July 2.

"We've scouted him extensively," Reds scouting director Chris Buckley said. "We had not thought he was eligible until this coming July 2. But we found out he was eligible, and when we did we were able to react. (Assistant general manager) Bob Miller and (director of Latin American scouting) Tony Arias deserve the credit on this one, because Bob was going over guys we were preparing for this year's signing period, and he said, 'You can sign this guy right now.'


"We did not know that, but when we found that out, we were able to go get him because of the work Tony has done. He compares favorably to this year's high drafts."

Players who are 16 years old are eligible to sign with major league teams during the international signing period, which lasts from July 2 to Aug. 31. Players who turn 16 years old during the international signing period are eligible to sign with teams on their birthdays.

Duran's birthday is Sept. 2, 1991, making him a 16-year-old who seemed to have barely missed the cutoff point to sign during last year's international signing period, and it appeared he would have to wait until the commencement of the 2008 period to sign. However, the rules state that for an international player to be eligible to sign, he must be 16 years old at the time of the signing and turn 17 years old by either Sept. 1 or by the end of his first professional season.


Players signed during the international signing period are not eligible to play that same year, so their first professional season comes the following calendar year. For example, a player signed during the 2007 international signing period would have his first professional season be the 2008 season.


The Reds realized that they could sign Duran if they assigned him to their 2008 roster in Billings in the Rookie-level Pioneer League, where the regular season ends on Sept. 5. Since Duran will turn 17 before the end of the 2008 Pioneer League season, he was eligible to sign before the 2008 international signing period and was eligible to sign back on his birthday last year.


One American League international scouting director said that he had Duran in for a workout as recently as last month.

"I think it caught everybody by surprise," he said. "Even his agents were promoting him as a July 2 guy. He really doesn't follow the July 2 cutoff for this year. I guess we all thought that, with the Sept. 1 cutoff in mind, we all figured he was eligible this year instead of last year."

Duran, who bats and throws righthanded and checks in at roughly 6-foot-6, 190 pounds, likely will not play a game this year in the PL, however, where at 16 years old he would be by far the youngest player in the league. The Reds cannot assign him to the Gulf Coast League, since the GCL season ends on Aug. 27, so sending him to the GCL would void his contract.

Buckley and Arias were both with the Blue Jays when the team drafted outfielder Alex Rios as an 18-year-old with the 19th overall pick in the 1999 draft.

"He compares favorably, only he's bigger and stronger at this age than Rios was," Buckley said. "He's more physical, and he has shown some of the same feel for hitting that Alex displayed.

"We don't have a second-round pick this year so we wanted to be creative and get more talent any way we can."

The $2 million bonus that Duran received was $500,000 more than the Red Sox gave to Dominican third baseman Michael Almanzar, who received the highest bonus of the 2007 international signing period. In 2006, the Giants gave Dominican first baseman Angel Villalona that year's top bonus at $2.1 million. It is the highest international bonus in Reds history, and tied for the third-largest signing bonus given to any player in club history.

Arias said that Duran was one of the Reds' top targets for July 2 before they realized within the last week that they could sign him.

"His body and offensive ability stick out like a sore thumb," Arias said. "In batting practice, he was just hitting them over the trees in our complex, hitting them out to center and right-center field. You can tell just tell from the way the ball jumps off his bat.

"I've never seen a 16-year-old with this type of ability. I talked to some people in the Dominican Republic who crossed paths with Vladimir Guerrero at that age, guys who have been scouting in the Dominican for more than 20 years, and they said they've never come into contact with a bat like this. He's got 80 power potential (on the 20-80 scouting scale) and just gets tremendous loft. In my opinion, in terms of his bat and his body, he's a better overall package than Angel Villalona. We wanted to change the perception in the baseball industry that Cincinnati is a cheap organization. We want to get back to being the Big Red Machine."


Another AL international scouting director said his team was also interested in Duran.


"We liked him," another AL international scouting director said. "We saw him as a corner outfielder, big, long-limbed, real bat potential. He's definitely a guy a lot of people liked."

One National League international scouting director compared Duran's body to that of a young Juan Gonzalez.

"He might end up being in center field because he's a plus runner. It's all going to come down to how big he gets and if he slows down," the scout said. "He's going to put on some weight, so whether he retains that speed will tell if he ends up at a corner.

"He's got some bat speed, and the power will come from the bat speed, but it all comes down to how thick he grows."

The same NL international scouting director also noted that Duran has been bothered by an elbow problem—which Arias said might have something to do with Duran having grown six inches in the past year—and that Duran only started throwing as far as 40 feet last month.


"He went to a tournament in Puerto Rico in the winter, and he didn't throw there. I saw him in February, and all he did was hit. I don't know what the up-to-date situation with his elbow is, but maybe they already checked him. Was he worth that kind of money? I guess he was to the Reds because they think he's an impact guy, but to me, I don't think so."

One AL international scouting director called him "one of those guys who don't come around very often."

"He's got all the tools," he said. "He's a pretty good player, very advanced for his age. I think it was a good investment. He's a good athlete, he has above-average power right now and he has a chance for 80 power (on the 20-80 scouting scale). He demonstrated every ability that you like to see in a kid. He's a very outgoing kid, good swing. There's no doubt about his approach, bat speed and power . . . he has all the common denominators you like to see, good balance, rhythm and a pretty good idea of what to do at the plate.

"If he has to go to a corner (outfield position), he certainly has the power to go there. But right now I'd give him every opportunity to play center field because he's light on his feet and has a good idea how to play out there. He's probably 6-foot-6, 195 pounds, somewhere in that area, so he could gain a whole 40 pounds with no problem. You look at this guy, and you hate to compare guys to major league players, especially at his age, but he could be a young Dave Winfield in the making."

baseballamerica.com

Sounds intriguing to say the least...good job Reds!

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 03:17 PM
Wow.

BRAVO Reds.

Benihana
03-04-2008, 03:20 PM
:thumbup::beerme::thumbup:

Bip Roberts
03-04-2008, 03:24 PM
2 million is a ton of money

LoganBuck
03-04-2008, 03:25 PM
Wow.

fearofpopvol1
03-04-2008, 03:27 PM
"We don't have a second-round pick this year so we wanted to be creative and get more talent any way we can."



"We wanted to change the perception in the baseball industry that Cincinnati is a cheap organization. We want to get back to being the Big Red Machine."

I really liked reading those quotes above. $2 million bucks for a signing bonus (and from the Reds no less) is a lot of coin.

Anyway, that's some pretty serious praise for a kid that is 16 years old.

Ben
03-04-2008, 03:30 PM
2 million is a ton of money

Sure it is, and the kid could become like Jackson Melian or some of the other international high profile "bonus babies" but I like that the Reds are being proactive and establishing a D.R. pipeline. As dougdirt said earlier, Bravo to the Reds FO/Scouting Department on this move.

smoke6
03-04-2008, 03:34 PM
So young

He's probably really 25...:D

Bip Roberts
03-04-2008, 03:36 PM
Sure it is, and the kid could become like Jackson Melian or some of the other international high profile "bonus babies" but I like that the Reds are being proactive and establishing a D.R. pipeline. As dougdirt said earlier, Bravo to the Reds FO/Scouting Department on this move.

Still is a lot of money.

lollipopcurve
03-04-2008, 03:47 PM
Still is a lot of money.

Price of doing business. I think the Reds are trying to establish a new name for themselves in the DR, and this is one way you do that. Even if the kid doesn't make it, the team will still gain rank among those who find/purvey talent down there.

AdamDunn
03-04-2008, 03:48 PM
Still is a lot of money.

Better than spending it on the FA market that has gone crazy over the years (though Fogg for $1 million is nice. But I imagine that's the exception rather than the rule).

Bip Roberts
03-04-2008, 03:49 PM
Price of doing business. I think the Reds are trying to establish a new name for themselves in the DR, and this is one way you do that. Even if the kid doesn't make it, the team will still gain rank among those who find/purvey talent down there.

Im not saying its a wrong move :dunno: Dont take me saying its a lot of money as me saying its the wrong move.

TRF
03-04-2008, 04:07 PM
wow. really awesome job by the scouts/FO on knowing the rules and targeting a player with this type of talent. Bust or no, the thinking is spot on.

6-6, 195 at age 16? He may be a mutant.

Bip Roberts
03-04-2008, 04:10 PM
Someone teach him to pitch while we are at it

edabbs44
03-04-2008, 04:24 PM
:clap:

princeton
03-04-2008, 04:37 PM
Reds spent about that much on the disaster that was Alejandro Diaz ($400,000 to Hiroshima Carp, $1.6mill to Diaz). It took years to recover from it, but most of that was because Bowden refused to budget properly.

Sounds like he won't even make the States for a year. What can you do with $2mill in the Dominican? That boy is going to have a LOT of new friends

New Fever
03-04-2008, 04:38 PM
I think this is a great move, you don't have a second round pick so you sign a guy people believe would be a first rounder. Who cares if its 2 million dollars, the Reds are showing they are willing to spend money. Do you guys think the recent Latin American prospects traded for guys Johan Santana have influenced clubs to spend more in the international market? If he plays any this year he will be a Top 100 guy because of his bonus and his age/potential.

edabbs44
03-04-2008, 04:38 PM
Reds spent about that much on the disaster that was Alejandro Diaz ($400,000 to Hiroshima Carp, $1.6mill to Diaz). It took years to recover from it, but most of that was because Bowden refused to budget properly.

Sounds like he won't even make the States for a year. What can you do with $2mill in the Dominican? That boy is going to have a LOT of new friends

I'd rather see Duran get that money than Mike Stanton.

SunDeck
03-04-2008, 04:54 PM
So young

Kid's probably really 20.

princeton
03-04-2008, 04:54 PM
it's interesting that the Reds were the only team bidding, and they still exceeded last year's standard. They must have REALLY wanted to keep him off the market.

I seem to recall that Marquis Grissom's age made him eligible for the draft one year, and that the Expos were the only team aware of it. the Expos snatched him in Rd 3 that year. But I could be misremembering.

IslandRed
03-04-2008, 05:00 PM
No telling whether the kid will be worth the money when all is said and done, but I always like to see the Reds out-fox and out-hustle the competition. A big tip of the cap to those guys.

GoReds33
03-04-2008, 05:03 PM
I like the move, but let me ask you a question. If the kid was faking his age, don't you think he would have faked it so that he could have signed in the last signing period?

IslandRed
03-04-2008, 05:08 PM
The article in post #35 says Duran had a huge growth spurt this past year, which means his age is probably legit.

lollipopcurve
03-04-2008, 05:09 PM
but I always like to see the Reds out-fox and out-hustle the competition.

tip the cap to ownership too -- they provide the coin

princeton
03-04-2008, 05:12 PM
Jay Bruce just got passe

Bring On Juan :thumbup:

HBP
03-04-2008, 05:27 PM
The article in post #35 says Duran had a huge growth spurt this past year, which means his age is probably legit.

Lets hope he stays at 6'6". I can't think of many OF 6'7" or taller. They could always move him to 1B but that would be a waste of his apparent speed.

princeton
03-04-2008, 05:39 PM
Lets hope he stays at 6'6".

he promised to lay off the HGH ;)

Chip R
03-04-2008, 06:08 PM
Great job by the Reds to sign this kid when no one else knew he was eligible. Although I'm sure FCB has already soured on this signing since he has a sore elbow. ;)

So since he is going to be assigned to Billings, but not play, do they have to play 1 guy short?

bearcatfan24
03-04-2008, 07:13 PM
Doubt it. I don't remember the Cardinals ever signing any big time Latin talents. This is Wayne Krivsky, not Walt

Try Albert Pujols

GoReds33
03-04-2008, 07:16 PM
Try Albert PujolsAs mentioned previously, he moved to the US, and was drafted.He wasn't big name either.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 07:19 PM
As mentioned previously, he moved to the US, and was drafted.He wasn't big name either.

Yep, he was a 12th round selection if I recall correctly.

mlbfan30
03-04-2008, 07:39 PM
People like this signing, and I think it's fine. But it's wrong to assume it realistically matters. These types of young latin players fail a lot. They are signed at 16-17 and it could be 5-6 years before it makes a difference. It's good to hope they pan out, but the chance is very slim. The importance of this signing is basically that is signifies the Reds are putting more money in latin countries looking for that Vlad type star player. As far as this specific player, the height is a concern for me. The growth spurt may create holes in his swing and change his mechanics. The elbow also worries me, and he might grow out of a OF player. Obviously we know very little about him and it'll take 2 years before we have any substantial info when he plays a full season. Willy Mo was this type of 80 power, and it took him so many years to develop secondary skills and grow as a player that he left the organization before it paid off. (I know he had to be on the ML roster, and he did net a great return, but he still took a long time to develop and may never develop). It's just so hard to realistically think the actual player means something until we know how he performs. So much can happen, but it's worth the risk.

edabbs44
03-04-2008, 08:00 PM
People like this signing, and I think it's fine. But it's wrong to assume it realistically matters. These types of young latin players fail a lot. They are signed at 16-17 and it could be 5-6 years before it makes a difference. It's good to hope they pan out, but the chance is very slim. The importance of this signing is basically that is signifies the Reds are putting more money in latin countries looking for that Vlad type star player. As far as this specific player, the height is a concern for me. The growth spurt may create holes in his swing and change his mechanics. The elbow also worries me, and he might grow out of a OF player. Obviously we know very little about him and it'll take 2 years before we have any substantial info when he plays a full season. Willy Mo was this type of 80 power, and it took him so many years to develop secondary skills and grow as a player that he left the organization before it paid off. (I know he had to be on the ML roster, and he did net a great return, but he still took a long time to develop and may never develop). It's just so hard to realistically think the actual player means something until we know how he performs. So much can happen, but it's worth the risk.

He can also be used as a trading chip down the line.

NorrisHopper30
03-04-2008, 08:12 PM
Great signing, I truly think this franchise is turning the corner.

edabbs44
03-04-2008, 08:15 PM
Doubt it. I don't remember the Cardinals ever signing any big time Latin talents. This is Wayne Krivsky, not Walt.

Just to shed some light:

Undated interview with Jocketty

http://thestlcardinals.com/Waltjockettyinterviewbw.html


BW: Any plans on the Cardinals getting back into the Caribbean? I recall you cut back your presence there a few years ago.

WJ: You know what we did there? We basically shut it down because we just werent happy with the direction we were going. We decided that rather than throw good money after bad, wed shut it down for the most part. Again, thats something were re-evaluating and will determine what were going to do; but I think by the end of the year well have something in place some form of facility in the Latin American countries. But, were still trying to decide where to base the operations and how were going to do that. But, its something we are working on.

From 3/8/05:

http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20050308&content_id=961492&vkey=pr_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl


Cardinals to open Latin American academy

Organization to sponsor Dominican Summer League team


ST. LOUIS, March 8, 2005 -- St. Louis Cardinals Senior Vice President/General Manager Walt Jocketty and Vice President, Player Procurement Jeff Luhnow announced today the opening of a Cardinals baseball academy in the Dominican Republic. The academy will be located near Villa Mella, close to the international airport in Santo Domingo, yet away from the urban sprawl of the city. The organization plans to use the facility as a base for their international player development.
Construction of the facility and fields began last fall with an expected completion date of May of this year. Jose Mella, a renowned architect in the Dominican who has designed several award-winning buildings in the Dominican Republic, is the architect who designed the complex and is overseeing the construction. The academy will feature two baseball fields, living quarters for the players and staff, a deluxe clubhouse, exercise and training facilities, dining room, recreation areas and offices. The Cardinals will lease the facility from Mr. Mella.

"We are committed to scouting and player development in Latin America," said Luhnow. "The Cardinals have had operations in Latin America before, but never to this extent. This academy provides these young players the best chance of being ready when they come to the U.S."

The Cardinals plan on the facility being completed in time for the organization to field a team in the Dominican Summer League in 2005. In anticipation of the opening of the facility, the Cardinals international scouting department has signed players from various parts of Latin America, including Venezuela, Curacao, El Salvador, Colombia, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic.

"There is so much talent in Latin America we felt this was a necessary step to compete for that talent," added Jocketty. "This academy will allow us to do things we haven't been able to in the past. This is a deal we've been working on since last summer and a lot of work had to be done to make sure we were ready to go for the 2005 season."

OnBaseMachine
03-04-2008, 08:20 PM
Wow. What an amazing signing by Wayne and the boys. From the sounds of it, this is like getting the #1 pick in the 2008 draft, maybe better. An 80 power potential on the 20-80 scale? Wow. Even more impressive is the 6'6" 195 at 16 years old. And here I thought that 16-year old pitcher the Reds signed back in January was big (Carlos Tineo - 6'5" 195). I applaud the Reds - this organization is going in the right direction.

Superdude
03-04-2008, 08:26 PM
When are we gonna be able to get him over here to play? This dude sounds like a monster.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 08:28 PM
When are we gonna be able to get him over here to play? This dude sounds like a monster.

This year. He has to be on the Billings roster this year for his contract to be valid. Whether he gets more than a few at bats all year is another question, but he will be on the Billings Mustangs roster June 15th or so.

Steve4192
03-04-2008, 08:30 PM
I know the article said he can't play stateside until next year, but can we count on seeing him in the DSL this year?

JaxRed
03-04-2008, 08:30 PM
Sounds to me like he's going to spend a summer in Sarasota practicing but not playing.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 08:31 PM
I know the article said he can't play stateside until next year, but can we count on seeing him in the DSL this year?

No. He must be on the Billings roster this year for his contract to be valid.

Steve4192
03-04-2008, 08:36 PM
No. He must be on the Billings roster this year for his contract to be valid.

He just has to be on their organizational roster for procedural purposes. That doesn't mean he is actually going to be in Billings on the active roster.


Duran, who bats and throws righthanded and checks in at roughly 6-foot-6, 190 pounds, likely will not play a game this year in the PL, however, where at 16 years old he would be by far the youngest player in the league. The Reds cannot assign him to the Gulf Coast League, since the GCL season ends on Aug. 27, so sending him to the GCL would void his contract.

Net, it is highly unlikely we will see him stateside this year. However, to the best of my knowledge, the DSL teams are not official minor league affiliates, so the Reds might be able to get away with leaving him in the DR and letting him play in DSL.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 08:39 PM
The DSL teams are officially minor league baseball teams. I also don't think you can have someone on your roster and not have them be with the team. Maybe I am crazy, but why would it be ok to have someone on the Billings Mustangs, located in Montana, but have him in Florida or the Dominican Republic playing on a different team?

MikeS21
03-04-2008, 09:11 PM
I wonder if they'll bat him sixth or seventh in the order? ;)

Blue
03-04-2008, 09:11 PM
The DSL teams are officially minor league baseball teams. I also don't think you can have someone on your roster and not have them be with the team. Maybe I am crazy, but why would it be ok to have someone on the Billings Mustangs, located in Montana, but have him in Florida or the Dominican Republic playing on a different team?

I think he'll be on the Billings roster the entire season but be in Sarasota practicing with the GCL Reds. He'll probably never see a game anywhere in 2008.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 09:12 PM
I think he'll be on the Billings roster the entire season but be in Sarasota practicing with the GCL Reds. He'll probably never see a game anywhere in 2008.

My point is more along the lines of, I don't think they can do that.

cincyinco
03-04-2008, 09:24 PM
My point is more along the lines of, I don't think they can do that.

What does it matter if he's in instructional league but on another roster? I don't see anything wrong with this. Especially if his roster spot isn't a vital cog to the team. Its not like he'd be taking a spot on the ML roster and playin instructionals.

Blue
03-04-2008, 09:25 PM
My point is more along the lines of, I don't think they can do that.

Why not? Its to their detriment to have him taking up a roster spot in Billings.

Of course, none of this really matters. Of all the things they may very well screw up, I think they'll manage to do what they have to do to keep this guy's contract. :laugh:

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 09:28 PM
Guys, he literally has to be on the Billings Mustangs roster. He can't play for another team. That would be like a few years ago having WMP on the Reds roster to make his contract valid, but playing him in Louisville. They couldn't do it. Why do we think they can do it now simply because its contingent to the minor leagues?

Am I completely missing something here?

cincyinco
03-04-2008, 09:34 PM
Am I? Do instructionals have a roster? It'd be one thing if he was playing in an official game for another affiliate. But, being in instructionals wouldn't matter as far as I know? I could be completely wrong, but thats how I view it.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 09:35 PM
Am I? Do instructionals have a roster? It'd be one thing if he was playing in an official game. Being in instructionals wouldn't matter?

Once short seasons begin though, he has to be on a roster, and at that point he would have to be with that team. He couldn't be on the Billings roster and practicing with the GCL Reds.

OnBaseMachine
03-04-2008, 09:37 PM
What I find amazing about this kid is his athletism despite being that big. The fact that he is viewed as a CFer at that size is truly something. In that article alone he was compared to Vladimir Guerrero, Alex Rios, and Dave Winfield. That's impressive. I'm still mind-boggled over the 80 power potential on a 20-80 scale. You don't see that very often at all.

Keep it up Wayne. I hope we can continue to make huge splashes like this in the International signing world.

cincyinco
03-04-2008, 09:39 PM
Once short seasons begin though, he has to be on a roster, and at that point he would have to be with that team. He couldn't be on the Billings roster and practicing with the GCL Reds.


I'm not proposing he play with the GCL Reds? In any case, what would it matter if he "practiced" with any team, as long as he didn't play in a game?

Is instructionals the same as GCL? I didn't think so. I thought GCL was a rookie level affiliate. I didn't think instructionals had anything to do with that?

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 09:44 PM
The GCL and instructionals are different things. Once the regular season starts there is extended spring training for guys looking at the GCL Reds/Billings Mustangs teams. Until June 15th or so, they just practice and try to improve their games. Once those teams are put in place though players need to be on a roster. I think that baseball would have a major problem if the kid were on a roster for a team in Montana and were practicing with a team in Florida.

fearofpopvol1
03-04-2008, 09:46 PM
Wouldn't child labor laws prohibit him from playing anyhow? I don't know how it works exactly, especially with him being from another country, but I would think the laws would still apply, no? Very confusing.

cincyinco
03-04-2008, 09:50 PM
The GCL and instructionals are different things. Once the regular season starts there is extended spring training for guys looking at the GCL Reds/Billings Mustangs teams. Until June 15th or so, they just practice and try to improve their games. Once those teams are put in place though players need to be on a roster. I think that baseball would have a major problem if the kid were on a roster for a team in Montana and were practicing with a team in Florida.

What would they give a crap if he never gets in a game?

I would think there is absolutely nothing wrong with him being on roster Montana but physically hanging out and practicing in with guys on roster Chattanooga(for example). As long as he never gets in a game, what do they care? He'd be taking up a spot on a roster where he can't be used, but who cares?

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 09:52 PM
What would they give a crap if he never gets in a game?

I would think there is absolutely nothing wrong with him being on roster Montana but physically hanging out and practicing in with guys on roster Chattanooga(for example). As long as he never gets in a game, what do they care? He'd be taking up a spot on a roster where he can't be used, but who cares?

Because they would then be exploiting the system MLB has set in place for plenty of reasons.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 09:53 PM
Wouldn't child labor laws prohibit him from playing anyhow? I don't know how it works exactly, especially with him being from another country, but I would think the laws would still apply, no? Very confusing.

Child labor laws? I was unaware that those applied to people at age 16. How many 16 year olds have jobs? Probably a whole lot. You can sign a contract as an International FA at age 16, so there are no laws against it. There were a bunch of 17 year olds playing minor league baseball last year in the US, including in the Reds system.

cincyinco
03-04-2008, 09:55 PM
Because they would then be exploiting the system MLB has set in place for plenty of reasons.

How is this exploiting anything? He's getting instructions from within the organization. He isn't playing in any games and therefore wouldnt' violate any roster issues there.

WMR
03-04-2008, 10:09 PM
The same NL international scouting director also noted that Duran has been bothered by an elbow problem—which Arias said might have something to do with Duran having grown six inches in the past year—and that Duran only started throwing as far as 40 feet last month.


"He went to a tournament in Puerto Rico in the winter, and he didn't throw there. I saw him in February, and all he did was hit. I don't know what the up-to-date situation with his elbow is, but maybe they already checked him. Was he worth that kind of money? I guess he was to the Reds because they think he's an impact guy, but to me, I don't think so."

Sounds like sour grapes to me!!

KUDOS REDS. :clap: :clap: :clap:

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 10:13 PM
How is this exploiting anything? He's getting instructions from within the organization. He isn't playing in any games and therefore wouldnt' violate any roster issues there.

The rule is in place so that you can't sign someone ahead of schedule and claim they are apart of a team at a higher level in order to actually let him be apart of a team at a lower level where he likely belongs. The Reds are actually doing this and are going to have to put the kid in Billings and let him practice with them and pretend to be a part of the team. I just don't see MLB looking the other way if the Reds claim he is on the Mustangs roster while allowing him to be in another place participating with another team, especially on such a high profile player who was in demand by a lot of other teams.

edabbs44
03-04-2008, 10:16 PM
I just don't see MLB looking the other way if the Reds claim he is on the Mustangs roster while allowing him to be in another place participating with another team, especially on such a high profile player who was in demand by a lot of other teams.

I agree with you...but they tend to look the other way when large market teams blow through the draft slotting structure.

cincyinco
03-04-2008, 10:38 PM
Doug, I have no idea where to look up roster rules, and I don't really care enough to look into it either. I'd rather just wait and see where he ends up. But if you know a good place to view transaction rules, I'd be interested to know.

fearofpopvol1
03-04-2008, 10:57 PM
Child labor laws? I was unaware that those applied to people at age 16. How many 16 year olds have jobs? Probably a whole lot. You can sign a contract as an International FA at age 16, so there are no laws against it. There were a bunch of 17 year olds playing minor league baseball last year in the US, including in the Reds system.

Yes, there are child labor laws that can prohibit you to work past certain times, particularly during the parts of the year when school are in session. The laws are different for each state though, so it may not be applicable in this situation.

Steve4192
03-04-2008, 11:15 PM
I suspect the Reds will have him on the inactive roster in Billings and leave him in the Dominican for the year.

mth123
03-05-2008, 04:28 AM
I like the signing. I had more about the contract and just reread the article. Nevermind.

The article says his first professional season has to end after his 17th Birthday which is Sept 2. Billings season ends September 5 so playing on that team would qualify the contract as valid.

Can he not simply play in the Dominican or the GCL until late August with a promotion to Billings to keep him active after September 5. The "has to be on Billings roster" stuff is still a little sketchy for me. Does that mean all year or only long enough to guarantee that the season ends after his 17th Birthday?

Topcat
03-05-2008, 04:56 AM
All I know is sure it is a gamble but this is exactly the area our Reds need to swing actively and be aggressive in . Smaller market Teams with any long sustainable hope need to go this way instead of competing with the disgraceful salary's MLB players are making.

redsmetz
03-05-2008, 05:17 AM
Sounds like he won't even make the States for a year. What can you do with $2mill in the Dominican? That boy is going to have a LOT of new friends

Did I misunderstand the story? I thought they indicated they would be placing him on the Billings roster, although they suggested he won't see much playing time. Billings would be a good spot for him - his manager will be a fellow Dominican, Julio Garcia and the hitting coach looks to be an American born player with Hispanic roots, Tony Jaramillo. Presumably language won't be as big an issue, although I suspect they'll be getting the kid into language classes, something ML teams are doing a better job at these days.

NorrisHopper30
03-05-2008, 08:03 AM
Anyone got a picture of the kid?

lollipopcurve
03-05-2008, 09:42 AM
No. He must be on the Billings roster this year for his contract to be valid.

This is correct, but so far as I know Duran himself does not have to be in Billings. As Jax and others have noted, it could be that he'll be at the Sarasota complex in "extended spring training," practicing, working out, learning English, etc. But he won't be playing minor league games. In essence, the team will be sacrificing a roster spot in Billings -- not a big deal.

I'm sure that if rules state that at some point Duran must be in Billings, in uniform, he'll be there. Plenty of time for the Reds to make sure they've got their bases covered.

dougdirt
03-05-2008, 09:45 AM
This is correct, but so far as I know Duran himself does not have to be in Billings. As Jax and others have noted, it could be that he'll be at the Sarasota complex in "extended spring training," practicing, working out, learning English, etc. But he won't be playing minor league games. In essence, the team will be sacrificing a roster spot in Billings -- not a big deal.

I'm sure that if rules state that at some point Duran must be in Billings, in uniform, he'll be there. Plenty of time for the Reds to make sure they've got their bases covered.

Yeah, but extended spring training only goes on as long as there is not a GCL/Billings season going on, which has been my point the entire time. He is going to have to be on the Billings roster, and once the Billings roster has to be set, he is going to have to be with them.

As for the rookie levels, they have different roster numbers than the other teams. I don't recall the exact numbers at this point, but they have some play in their rosters.

Bip Roberts
03-05-2008, 09:45 AM
How long before they start adding stipulations saying a player must reach certain amounts of innings or games for the contracts to stick. Sorta like the rule 5

lollipopcurve
03-05-2008, 10:18 AM
Yeah, but extended spring training only goes on as long as there is not a GCL/Billings season going on, which has been my point the entire time.

The Reds have a complex in Sarasota. You'll hear of players going there to rehab, for example, during the season. I don't see why Duran couldn't be there working out, even while the short-season leagues are playing. Maybe you know of some regulation that I don't, but I do know players are rehabbing in Sarasota all summer long, and I don't think they have to be on the GCL roster to do that.

Again, I'm sure the Reds will have scoured all the roster regulations by June so that they will know where he can/can't be.

IslandRed
03-05-2008, 10:31 AM
The Reds have a complex in Sarasota. You'll hear of players going there to rehab, for example, during the season. I don't see why Duran couldn't be there working out, even while the short-season leagues are playing. Maybe you know of some regulation that I don't, but I do know players are rehabbing in Sarasota all summer long, and I don't think they have to be on the GCL roster to do that.

Again, I'm sure the Reds will have scoured all the roster regulations by June so that they will know where he can/can't be.

That's what I was thinking too. It's not about hanging around the GCL Reds, it's about hanging around the Sarasota complex. So far as I know, if the organization wants to assign a pitcher to the Louisville roster but leave him in Sarasota to work on things (while not playing in games and not being on the disabled list), there's no rule that says they can't. So I don't know why they couldn't do the same with a player assigned to Billings.

dougdirt
03-05-2008, 10:36 AM
I am pretty sure you can't be on a teams roster but in a completely different place while working out and training. How does that make sense? When guys go on rehab, they are put onto the rehabbing teams roster, they don't stay on their original teams roster and rehab in another place. Last year when Sam Lecure was rehabbing he was placed on the Sarasota Reds roster for the two starts he had, then moved back to the Chattanooga roster when he was ready to go back to AA.

Maybe I am off on the rules, but I don't see why there would be a rule saying you can be on the AAA roster but participate and practice with rookie ball teams.

princeton
03-05-2008, 10:38 AM
my 90-year-old grandmother could probably OPS .700+ at Billings.

send him to Billings.

westofyou
03-05-2008, 10:39 AM
my 90-year-old grandmother could probably OPS .700+ at Billings.

send him to Billings.

Probably all OB% no slugging though.

lollipopcurve
03-05-2008, 10:44 AM
Maybe I am off on the rules, but I don't see why there would be a rule saying you can be on the AAA roster but participate and practice with rookie ball teams.

He wouldn't be with the rookie league team in Sarasota. He would be at the complex, along with players who have not been assigned to any team and players who are rehabbing. The complex has several fields -- plenty of room for both the GCL Reds and the nonassigned/rehabbing/miscellaneous, like Duran, others. Again, if the rules suggest he must be in Billings if healthy, for example, I'm sure he'll be there. This isn't the Bengals FO trying to close a deal.

dougdirt
03-05-2008, 10:51 AM
He wouldn't be with the rookie league team in Sarasota. He would be at the complex, along with players who have not been assigned to any team and players who are rehabbing. The complex has several fields -- plenty of room for both the GCL Reds and the nonassigned/rehabbing/miscellaneous, like Duran, others. Again, if the rules suggest he must be in Billings if healthy, for example, I'm sure he'll be there. This isn't the Bengals FO trying to close a deal.

I know the what you are suggesting, I just don't see how that is a possibility given that he has to be on the Mustangs roster.

dougdirt
03-05-2008, 10:56 AM
I just sent an email to JJ Cooper at BA to get some information on the situation and how it has to be handled by the Reds to make his contract valid in terms of his placement on the Billings roster. Hopefully we can get an answer then.

dougdirt
03-05-2008, 11:14 AM
Sounds like I was wrong on that one. Apparently he can be placed on the roster, but not actually be there on the team.

TRF
03-05-2008, 05:41 PM
So, the roster is a procedural move only. He won't be appearing in ANY games it seems in 2008, and I'd be willing to bet he's in extended ST or whatever for the full year. That means learning the language, maturing, and lots of practice.

dougdirt
03-05-2008, 05:44 PM
So, the roster is a procedural move only. He won't be appearing in ANY games it seems in 2008, and I'd be willing to bet he's in extended ST or whatever for the full year. That means learning the language, maturing, and lots of practice.

That is what it sounds like from what JJ sent back to me.

WMR
03-05-2008, 09:48 PM
Hold on a sec... did doug just admit he made a mistake?!?!?!

;)

j/j

IslandRed
03-05-2008, 10:21 PM
Maybe I am off on the rules, but I don't see why there would be a rule saying you can be on the AAA roster but participate and practice with rookie ball teams.


Sounds like I was wrong on that one. Apparently he can be placed on the roster, but not actually be there on the team.

Hey, I was right for once. You were right in that it normally wouldn't make any sense for the club to post a guy on the Billings roster and have him just hang around the Sarasota complex working out while the Mustangs play a man short on the bench. But "wouldn't" isn't the same as "can't" and this is obviously a special case. The key is that he cannot participate with either of the Sarasota clubs in the sense of playing in a real game.

SirFelixCat
03-06-2008, 06:48 AM
Ok, been outta the loop for awhile and just read the whole thread. Wow, major props to the FO and scouting dept. They really pulled a coup here it sounds like! :thumbup:

Yes that was a good chunk 'o change, but the message it sends is as important as the player, imo. Very good job, Reds!

princeton
03-06-2008, 08:07 AM
Yes that was a good chunk 'o change, but the message it sends is as important as the player, imo. Very good job, Reds!

I'm hoping that the player is more important than the message

if not, then the message becomes, "we're willing to make bad decisions at terrible cost"

Chip R
03-06-2008, 09:47 AM
This from John Fay:

The Reds' signing of Juan Duran, a 16-year-old outfielder, was a big deal. A much bigger deal than I thought Sunday.

I knew something was up when they announced it. So I asked Wayne Krivsky about it.

"We signed him and we announced it," Krivsky said.

When I pointed out that in the time I've covered the club, the Reds had never announced the signing of a Latin American player, Krivsky allowed that Reds scouts really liked the kid. Well, they reportedly like the kid to the tune of $2 million.

... If Krivsky had been a little more forthcoming with the significance of the signing, it would have gotten much better play. And some very positive publicity for the club.


http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080306/SPT04/803060360/1062/SPT

Steve4192
03-06-2008, 10:13 AM
This from John Fay:

... If Krivsky had been a little more forthcoming with the significance of the signing, it would have gotten much better play. And some very positive publicity for the club.


I am really starting to hate Fay. It seems like every other article of his has some smarmy comment about how people should make his job easier. First he bashes Homer for giving him the cold shoulder, now he takes Krivsky to task for not giving him chapter and verse on the Duran signing.

Wah! Homer won't give me soundbites! Wah!

Wah! Krivsky made me do research! Wah!

At least Hal McCoy has an excuse for being a curmudgeon (he's older than dirt). Fay is way to young to be this whiny.

BRM
03-06-2008, 10:13 AM
I just saw this on Fay's blog.



Volquez on Duran

Edinson Volquez has seen Juan Duran play. He watched the 16-year-old outfielder the Reds signed in a tournament the Dominican.

"I saw him hit two two home runs in two at-bats," Volquez said. "I saw him throw from the outfield. Unbelievable. I've never seen someone like that. He's a little skinny right now. But he's going to be really good."

Duran is 6-foot-6, 190 pounds.

Mario Soto has not seen Duran play but he heard all about him.

"In my country, they said he was asking for $5 million," Soto said.

The Reds reportedly got him for $2 million. For their sake, hopefully it will work out better than their last splurge on a Latin American player. They paid Alejandro Diaz $1.6 million in 1999. He never made it above Double-A. What's worse spending all that money on Diaz busted the budget and kept the Reds from signing a guy named Miguel Cabrera.

redsmetz
03-06-2008, 10:37 AM
I just saw this on Fay's blog.


Volquez on Duran

Edinson Volquez has seen Juan Duran play. He watched the 16-year-old outfielder the Reds signed in a tournament the Dominican.

"I saw him hit two two home runs in two at-bats," Volquez said. "I saw him throw from the outfield. Unbelievable. I've never seen someone like that. He's a little skinny right now. But he's going to be really good."

Duran is 6-foot-6, 190 pounds.

Mario Soto has not seen Duran play but he heard all about him.

"In my country, they said he was asking for $5 million," Soto said.

The Reds reportedly got him for $2 million. For their sake, hopefully it will work out better than their last splurge on a Latin American player. They paid Alejandro Diaz $1.6 million in 1999. He never made it above Double-A. What's worse spending all that money on Diaz busted the budget and kept the Reds from signing a guy named Miguel Cabrera.


While it's fair to ask whether the same thing could happen, I think we're looking at different budgets. While not unlimited, I think we have a general office that has an idea of how to use their money.

Interestingly, when I looked up info on Diaz yesterday, one item I found said he was the first Japanese League player to be taken under the then new posting system.

It's a gamble, for sure; any minor league prospect is, but I still like that we're hustling out there and that we outfoxed all the other teams.

Chip R
03-06-2008, 10:44 AM
I am really starting to hate Fay. It seems like every other article of his has some smarmy comment about how people should make his job easier. First he bashes Homer for giving him the cold shoulder, now he takes Krivsky to task for not giving him chapter and verse on the Duran signing.

Wah! Homer won't give me soundbites! Wah!

Wah! Krivsky made me do research! Wah!

At least Hal McCoy has an excuse for being a curmudgeon (he's older than dirt). Fay is way to young to be this whiny.


I'm guessing Fay may have caught a little hell from his editors because he didn't have a mention of it yesterday and he's taking it out on Wayne because he was too lazy to write about it.

redsmetz
03-06-2008, 10:53 AM
I'm guessing Fay may have caught a little hell from his editors because he didn't have a mention of it yesterday and he's taking it out on Wayne because he was too lazy to write about it.

I think there's some serious acrimony between Wayne and Fay. And while it may well be a two way street, I have felt for the last couple or years or so that Fay had become a bit full of himself - hey, I'm the beat writer for the top newspaper covering the Reds, tell me everything. He comes off a foolish quite a number of times, IMO.

Interestingly, I think the story has unfolded very well and has gotten some very good splash in the succeeding day. If Fay has a beef, it's with himself, as you clearly note. Once the light went on that he couldn't recall such a signing having been announced this way, it was incumbent on him to start digging.

Maybe he needs to sit down and listen to some old "Night Beat" radio shows and learn how Randy Stone got a story. :)

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 11:03 AM
I'm guessing Fay may have caught a little hell from his editors because he didn't have a mention of it yesterday

Fay was off yesterday. Those days when Homer pitches are like double shifts, after all -- you know, when there aren't enough quotes to fill a notebook.

Chip R
03-06-2008, 11:11 AM
I think there's some serious acrimony between Wayne and Fay. And while it may well be a two way street, I have felt for the last couple or years or so that Fay had become a bit full of himself - hey, I'm the beat writer for the top newspaper covering the Reds, tell me everything. He comes off a foolish quite a number of times, IMO.

Interestingly, I think the story has unfolded very well and has gotten some very good splash in the succeeding day. If Fay has a beef, it's with himself, as you clearly note. Once the light went on that he couldn't recall such a signing having been announced this way, it was incumbent on him to start digging.

Maybe he needs to sit down and listen to some old "Night Beat" radio shows and learn how Randy Stone got a story. :)


From what I understand, Fay would rather cover Elder football than the Reds. Seriously. Unfortunately the media is our main conduit to players, coaches, executives, etc. We see them and a lot of the time base our opinions on them through their eyes. Guys like Steve Carlton and George Hendricks were painted as bad guys because they didn't talk to the media. They need the players, etc. to fill their notebooks, etc. so they like the people who give them quotes, are personable and such. It makes their jobs much easier and we all like it when our jobs are made easier. Wayne's not exactly the most talkative guy in the world. That's just how he is. JimBo was a reporter's dream because he loved to shoot his mouth off and he was a personable guy.

I think it would behoove Fay to mend fences with Wayne. It's not good to have the local paper's beat writer at odds with the Reds GM. It's be like having the Washington Post White House correspondant feud with the White House press secretary. Who's going to get the good scoops, the Post or the NY Times? Who's going to get all the good stories, Fay or Hal McCoy?

M2
03-06-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm guessing Fay may have caught a little hell from his editors because he didn't have a mention of it yesterday and he's taking it out on Wayne because he was too lazy to write about it.

Yep, and it's rank amateur behavior on Fay's part. Frankly, it shouldn't have taken a lightning bolt to realize that a $2M signing is a big deal.

Steve4192
03-06-2008, 11:37 AM
Who's going to get all the good stories, Fay or Hal McCoy?

I don't think there is much Fay can do about that.

Hal is a Reds institution. He'll always have the better sources because he has been covering the Reds since the days of Bid McPhee and Pop Snyder.

dougdirt
03-06-2008, 11:49 AM
Yep, and it's rank amateur behavior on Fay's part. Frankly, it shouldn't have taken a lightning bolt to realize that a $2M signing is a big deal.

Yep. When I heard about the signing, like everyone else the thought went through my mind of 'the Reds never announce this kind of stuff, this must be something of a big deal' and I emailed some of the scouts around baseball I know to find out the deal. All Fay had to do was just go to work and ask someone that he talks to every day and he still didn't do it until someone on his blog asked him about it because they read about it on Baseball America's site.

Chip R
03-06-2008, 12:04 PM
I don't think there is much Fay can do about that.

Hal is a Reds institution. He'll always have the better sources because he has been covering the Reds since the days of Bid McPhee and Pop Snyder.


If he thinks Wayne's going to stick around it would be a pretty good idea to get along with him. It's not like they have to play tetherball together or do each other's hair but it's important to get along with him. Put yourself in Wayne's shoes. If you have some info to leak or want to give a reporter a scoop, who are you going to give it to, someone who you get along with or someone who you don't? I know the Enquirer doesn't have any local competition anymore but I can't imagine them being happy if the DDN gets scoops and the Enquirer doesn't.

Hal may have better sources but you can't control what he does. You can only control what you do and he can develop his own sources too.

HumnHilghtFreel
03-06-2008, 12:33 PM
I'm late to this thread now, but after reading that BA piece, I'm blown away. It's GREAT to read these things coming from our Reds. I hope they continue to put money into scouting/international scouting and bring in more gems like this.

Chip R
03-06-2008, 01:00 PM
I think one of the things we need to realize about this is that people still bring up the Diaz signing as an example of how this could be a waste of money. I prefer to think of it differently. The Reds paid $1.6M for him about 10 years ago and they paid $2M for Duran. As far as things go in baseball, that's a modest increase. Think what guys were getting 10 years ago on the FA market. Look at what payroll was then. Amateur bonuses haven't increased too much but I'd be willing to wager it's been on about a par of this 25% increase. Plus the Reds don't have a 2nd round pick so there's some money that would have normally gone to that player that's going for Duran. If he's a flameout, it's only $2M and it's not like the Reds are making a habit of throwing this kind of cash at 16 year old kids from the DR.

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 01:13 PM
I think one of the things we need to realize about this is that people still bring up the Diaz signing as an example of how this could be a waste of money. I prefer to think of it differently. The Reds paid $1.6M for him about 10 years ago and they paid $2M for Duran. As far as things go in baseball, that's a modest increase. Think what guys were getting 10 years ago on the FA market. Look at what payroll was then. Amateur bonuses haven't increased too much but I'd be willing to wager it's been on about a par of this 25% increase. Plus the Reds don't have a 2nd round pick so there's some money that would have normally gone to that player that's going for Duran. If he's a flameout, it's only $2M and it's not like the Reds are making a habit of throwing this kind of cash at 16 year old kids from the DR.

Nice post. There are different angles to this signing -- the cachet it buys in the DR, the lack of a 2nd round pick, the organization's resurrecting itself internationally -- that fill the story out beyond whether Duran fulfills his promise or not. Whether the beat writers ever get this is another matter -- it may always be looked at in black and white.

Steve4192
03-06-2008, 01:48 PM
Plus the Reds don't have a 2nd round pick so there's some money that would have normally gone to that player that's going for Duran.

I think (hope) the biggest difference is that Krivsky will not be forced to raid his draft budget every time he makes an international signing. The two should be separate line items within the player development budget, not one lump sum that cannot be exceeded.

The draft budget is pretty much a given every year. You add up your picks and the slot values for each of those picks and there is your budget. The international budget is a little more fluid. Some years, there won't be anyone you want to blow a fat stack of cash on, some years one guy will stand head and shoulders above the rest and you might break the bank to sign him, and some years you'll have to pick & choose wisely among a group of blue chippers because you can't afford them all. The point is, from year to year, the international budget can fluctuate wildly.

Pissing away your domestic draft because you happened to have a big year in the international market is asinine.

M2
03-06-2008, 02:05 PM
Hal is a Reds institution. He'll always have the better sources because he has been covering the Reds since the days of Bid McPhee and Pop Snyder.

That said, it can't be that hard to out-work Hal. McCoy treats us to an annual highlight reel outright blunders on top of a pile of strangely uninformed reporting.

As Rosencrans, and some others before him like Lancaster and Horrigan, have demonstrated, the beat is wide open for anyone willing to work it.

princeton
03-06-2008, 02:18 PM
Nice post. There are different angles to this signing -- the cachet it buys in the DR, the lack of a 2nd round pick, the organization's resurrecting itself internationally -- that fill the story out beyond whether Duran fulfills his promise or not.

Diaz bought us no cachet, no resurrection. If anything, that signing seems to have cost us Miguel Cabrera

(BTW, I have always suspected that we would have blown through that $2mill in other ways before Cabrera was available. JimBo could go through money FAST)

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 02:25 PM
Diaz bought us no cachet, no resurrection. If anything, that signing seems to have cost us Miguel Cabrera

Many moons ago. This FO is actually competent.

princeton
03-06-2008, 02:47 PM
Many moons ago. This FO is actually competent.

it's not clear that they know a $2mill player

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 02:51 PM
it's not clear that they know a $2mill player

It's the price of doing business in the DR. Either you want to be a player there, or you don't. I think it's a good place to have a meaningful presence.

princeton
03-06-2008, 02:55 PM
It's the price of doing business in the DR.


actually, it's not

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 02:57 PM
actually, it's not

It certainly is, if you want to bag the big fish. And this kid is, by all accounts, a big fish.

Steve4192
03-06-2008, 03:10 PM
It certainly is, if you want to bag the big fish. And this kid is, by all accounts, a big fish.

That has yet to be seen.

Remember that, amid all those glowing reports, there were also a few guys who said Duran is good but not $2MM good. Princeton's point is that they just spent a historically large amount on a guy that has been questioned by some as a little too spendy. Only time will tell if that is because of superior scouting on the Reds part or because the front office decided "we've got to get this guy" and backed up the Brinks truck to his door in order to make it happen.

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 03:31 PM
That has yet to be seen.

Remember that, amid all those glowing reports, there were also a few guys who said Duran is good but not $2MM good. Princeton's point is that they just spent a historically large amount on a guy that has been questioned by some as a little too spendy. Only time will tell if that is because of superior scouting on the Reds part or because the front office decided "we've got to get this guy" and backed up the Brinks truck to his door in order to make it happen.

If you don't think there are bunches of other teams that would have thrown 2 million at Duran upon discovering the loophole the Reds found, you're mistaken, I think. The fact is, the best kids in the Dominican sign at age 16 -- you're never going to find unanimity of opinion on a 16-year-old. It's understood these kids have a long way to go, but, compared to the domestic market, it's a pretty cheap way to acquire what looks to be top-shelf amateur talent.
And still, as noted plenty already, there are benefits that go beyond how Duran turns out. These have to do with the organization's presence and reputation on that particular patch of foreign soil. In my opinion this signing dovetails with the signing of Cordero, the trade for Volquez and the emergence of Cueto in such a way that the Reds are now going to be seen as an organization of choice down there. Fruits may not be immediate, but I think we could see the DR become a far better talent pipeline for the Reds over the next several years. So long as the organization maintains some stability.

Steve4192
03-06-2008, 05:20 PM
And still, as noted plenty already, there are benefits that go beyond how Duran turns out. These have to do with the organization's presence and reputation on that particular patch of foreign soil.

I think you are VASTLY overrating the indirect benefits of this signing. As Princeton said earlier 'Diaz bought us no cachet'. Neither will Duran if he doesn't pan out.

99% of the value of this signing (or any signing for that matter) is dependent on whether the player in question turns into a quality major leaguer. Nobody will care in five years what the Reds paid Duran if he ends up being the second coming of Joel Guzman.

TRF
03-06-2008, 05:26 PM
If you don't think there are bunches of other teams that would have thrown 2 million at Duran upon discovering the loophole the Reds found, you're mistaken, I think. The fact is, the best kids in the Dominican sign at age 16 -- you're never going to find unanimity of opinion on a 16-year-old. It's understood these kids have a long way to go, but, compared to the domestic market, it's a pretty cheap way to acquire what looks to be top-shelf amateur talent.
And still, as noted plenty already, there are benefits that go beyond how Duran turns out. These have to do with the organization's presence and reputation on that particular patch of foreign soil. In my opinion this signing dovetails with the signing of Cordero, the trade for Volquez and the emergence of Cueto in such a way that the Reds are now going to be seen as an organization of choice down there. Fruits may not be immediate, but I think we could see the DR become a far better talent pipeline for the Reds over the next several years. So long as the organization maintains some stability.

Outstanding post and point. The Reds need to tap this market, and frankly all Latin America markets. They need to be proactive worldwide. Signing this kid will indicate to others the the Reds are a team willing to take a chance on players through non traditional means. While Latin America signings are certainly more commonplace now than say 30 years ago, The Reds expansion into Taiwan and Australia bode well for the future.

Gotta say, I love this signing.

TRF
03-06-2008, 05:30 PM
99% of the value of this signing (or any signing for that matter) is dependent on whether the player in question turns into a quality major leaguer. Nobody will care in five years what the Reds paid Duran if he ends up being the second coming of Joel Guzman.

The problem with Diaz was he aged 4 years overnight. Had the Reds known his TRUE age, they never would have signed him for that amount.

IMO 99% of the value of this signing is dependent on whether the Reds scouts can gain the trust of other kids and their families in the DR. And if the Reds back that trust with dollars. It also would really help if said scouts continue to find the right kids.

edit: it was 4 years. http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2007/09/lost-latin-connection.asp

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 05:46 PM
I think you are VASTLY overrating the indirect benefits of this signing.

Time will tell.


As Princeton said earlier 'Diaz bought us no cachet'. Neither will Duran if he doesn't pan out.


Diaz was posted out of Japan. He'd already left the DR. The buzz down there around Duran is sure to be much bigger.


99% of the value of this signing (or any signing for that matter) is dependent on whether the player in question turns into a quality major leaguer.

Or whether he becomes a valuable trade chip.


Nobody will care in five years what the Reds paid Duran if he ends up being the second coming of Joel Guzman.

Could be an apt comparison. But even as Guzman was disappointing, other Dominicans were reaching the majors for the Dodgers -- Aybar, Abreu, Brazoban, for example. Point being that this signing -- along with the other acquisitions I've noted -- has a good chance of starting a pipeline whereby more major-league quality talent gets directed to Cincinnati. For example, maybe Duran's peers, or younger kids who've idolized him, will want to get into the Reds' system in order to have the chance to play with him. The $$$ will impress both the kids and scouts down there, making the Reds' academy a more desirable destination than before. I'm not saying you're going to see the top talent flocking to Cincinnati -- but I am saying you're probably going to see some better players from the Dominican start to enter the Reds system over the next few years. So long as the organization doesn't get discombobulated.

Steve4192
03-06-2008, 05:51 PM
IMO 99% of the value of this signing is dependent on whether the Reds scouts can gain the trust of other kids and their families in the DR.

Wow.

Then we are going to have to agree to disagree. I just can't fathom how anyone could think that only 1% of this deal hinges on Duran's ability as a player.

Signing an individual player doesn't build goodwill. Building an academy, maintaining a constant presence in the Dominican, and fostering relationships with coaches and communities is what builds goodwill. I don't think Jose '09 cares one whit about what the Reds paid Juan '08.

MikeS21
03-06-2008, 07:29 PM
Wow.

Then we are going to have to agree to disagree. I just can't fathom how anyone could think that only 1% of this deal hinges on Duran's ability as a player.

Signing an individual player doesn't build goodwill. Building an academy, maintaining a constant presence in the Dominican, and fostering relationships with coaches and communities is what builds goodwill. I don't think Jose '09 cares one whit about what the Reds paid Juan '08.
I think it all boils down to the fact that the FO has to trust the eyes and the ears that they have on site who have actually seen the kid play. If they have seen him play and say he is worth it, then you have to listen to what they are telling you. What's the point of having a scouting department and a presence in Latin America if you don't trust them? Evidently the new guy from Texas, Volquez, has actually seen Duran in person and has said that he is the real deal.

$2 million is a lot of cheese - no question. Especially on an unproven kid. But teams do that all the time. We wouldn't blink twice about dropping that kind of money on a high school aged top ten first round draft choice in June. Evidently, this unproven kid had caught the attention of several teams - not just the Reds. The Reds seem to have been the only one to have checked the "fine print" of the baseball rules (Must have been an O'Brien holdover! :D).

Had the Reds wound up in a bidding war with some of the other clubs over Duran, he probably would have cost a lot more. I think the fact that this signing took place without other immediate suitors, the tendency of previous Reds regiemes may have been to attempt to underpay and screw the kid out of fair market value. That didn't happen here, and I think that says more about the positive changes in the current FO.

I'm not denying that it's a huge risk. It is impossible to project where this kid will be six or eight years from now. It's a risk. But so is every amateur draft pick in June's draft. It's all one big crapshoot. That's why they have scouts. Hopefully, they weed out the obvious fizzle-outs and can spot more than a few that have the talent and tenacity to make it all the way to the big leagues.

Let's not let the past mistakes of a few scouts - some who are no longer even with the Reds - coerce us into making a snap judgement on Duran. The Reds' Latin American scouts have done fairly well the last couple years, and they should have earned a little respect. Let's observe how far Duran progresses over the next 2-3 years and see how this plays out.

In two years - 2010 - Duran will be the same age as most high school draft picks. Then the question will be: Does Duran show ability equal to a top ten high school draft pick in 2010? Unless he just bombs out right away, I think you have to wait two years minimum before you can make any kind of judgment call on good or how bad this deal is.

OnBaseMachine
03-06-2008, 08:09 PM
The more and more I read about this kid the more I get excited. Everyone who has seen him play seems to be in awe of his talent and how great he can potentially be. I applaud this organization - the guys in charge have this organization going in the right direction IMO.

OnBaseMachine
03-07-2008, 07:21 PM
More On Juan Duran

Posted Mar. 6, 2008 12:39 pm by Ben Badler
Filed under: Daily Dish, International

Several members of the Reds front office have credited assistant general manager Bob Miller as the key person who realized that Juan Duran, a 16-year-old outfielder who the Reds signed for $2 million, was even eligible to sign before July 2.

Miller worked in the office of the National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues (NAPBL, now known as Minor League Baseball) back when the rule that allowed the Reds to sign Duran was instituted in the 1980s.

"I went down there to see him and they handed me a roster," Miller said. "I asked him in Spanish what his birthday was, he told me, and we signed him very quietly. We didnt want him shopping it around. We met with his family and his buscone that night before any word got out."

Duran is still in the Dominican Republic, but could arrive in the United States before the end of spring training.

"Hes a big kid, and as big as he is, hes better developed than a lot of kids," Miller said. "He said he weighs 204, and hes 6-5, 6-6 with big-time power."

Baseball America correspondent John Fay also checked in with new Reds acquisition Edinson Volquez, who has seen Duran play.

"I saw him hit two two home runs in two at-bats," Volquez said. "I saw him throw from the outfield. Unbelievable. Ive never seen someone like that. Hes a little skinny right now. But hes going to be really good."

The $2 million bonus the Reds gave to Duran is a franchise record for a bonus given to an international player, and is tied for the third-highest bonus in team history.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=769

Hoosier Red
03-07-2008, 07:44 PM
Had the Reds wound up in a bidding war with some of the other clubs over Duran, he probably would have cost a lot more. I think the fact that this signing took place without other immediate suitors, the tendency of previous Reds regiemes may have been to attempt to underpay and screw the kid out of fair market value. That didn't happen here, and I think that says more about the positive changes in the current FO.



I agree and the proactiveness is what really strikes me here.
The worst thing in the world for the Reds would have been for them to offer a big chunk of money, but not big enough that Juan could have said, "no thanks, I'll wait until July"

They had to offer him enough to not even test the market.

Shaknb8k
03-08-2008, 10:15 PM
I wonder how the Reds top prospects will look going into '09. If the big 4 graduate the Reds for sure will drop from the 3rd spot in BA's list but they will still have a very solid farm system. That would leave (in no particular order) Stubbs, Mesoraco, Frazier, Francisco, maybe Roenicke, Lotzkar, Duran, and the No. 7 pick. Im sure a few of those will take a step back but there are still players like Wood, Soto, Waring, Dorn and a 2nd or 3rd round pick from the '08 draft that very easily could skyrocket through the system with a their potential.

I think this Duran signing is enormous for the Reds farm system.

Stubbs, Duran, and Frazier as possible top hitters to go with Lotzkar, Roenicke and maybe a top pitcher from this draft would still be a solid group hitters and pitchers. Then add possible long shots like Daryl Thompson or Chiu that could break out.

Ill take a Farm system of Stubbs, Mesoraco, Duran, Frazier, Francisco, Roenicke, Lotzkar, Soto, Wood, Waring, and Dorn plus the '08 draft any day of the week. With young guys like Bruce, Bailey, Votto, Cueto, Volquez, Phillips, Encarnacion to go with veterns like Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero I believe the entire Reds franchise is going in the right direction.

dougdirt
03-08-2008, 10:34 PM
I wonder how the Reds top prospects will look going into '09. If the big 4 graduate the Reds for sure will drop from the 3rd spot in BA's list but they will still have a very solid farm system. That would leave (in no particular order) Stubbs, Mesoraco, Frazier, Francisco, maybe Roenicke, Lotzkar, Duran, and the No. 7 pick. Im sure a few of those will take a step back but there are still players like Wood, Soto, Waring, Dorn and a 2nd or 3rd round pick from the '08 draft that very easily could skyrocket through the system with a their potential.

I think this Duran signing is enormous for the Reds farm system.

Stubbs, Duran, and Frazier as possible top hitters to go with Lotzkar, Roenicke and maybe a top pitcher from this draft would still be a solid group hitters and pitchers. Then add possible long shots like Daryl Thompson or Chiu that could break out.

Ill take a Farm system of Stubbs, Mesoraco, Duran, Frazier, Francisco, Roenicke, Lotzkar, Soto, Wood, Waring, and Dorn plus the '08 draft any day of the week. With young guys like Bruce, Bailey, Votto, Cueto, Volquez, Phillips, Encarnacion to go with veterns like Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero I believe the entire Reds franchise is going in the right direction.

Reds don't have a 2nd round pick in 2008, but other than that, great post.

OnBaseMachine
03-09-2008, 10:43 AM
$2 million worth of credibility
Dominican teen signing big step
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SARASOTA, Fla. - When Bob Castellini signed a $2 million check with Juan Duran's name on it last week, he sent one of the strongest signals yet that the Reds are ready to do what it takes to return to competitiveness.

Duran is a 16-year-old hot-shot outfielder from the Dominican Republic. There's no guarantee that he'll play an inning in Great American Ball Park. But Castellini was willing to take the big risk to become a factor in Latin America.

"Just watch a game on TV and look at all the players from the Caribbean," Reds scouting director Chris Buckley said. "You've got to be a factor there."

The Duran signing shows the Reds are trying to open up the Latin connection again.

"I think it's a great step in that direction," said Walt Jocketty, a special adviser to Castellini. "It's one of the things Bob Castellini wants to do. This signing sends a pretty clear message that we're going to be aggressive in the market."

Castellini gets ripped occasionally for not throwing money at the Reds' problems. But this signing shows he has the foresight and checkbook to try to turn things around. It's a check neither Carl Lindner nor Marge Schott would write.

That's why you have only one Latin player in camp whom the Reds signed and developed with any shot of making the club. That's Johnny Cueto, he of the 97 mph fastball and drop-off-the-table changeup. Cueto might have the best stuff in camp. He was a bargain acquisition in 2004 - he signed for $3,500.

The Reds have trolled the bottom since they returned to scouting Latin America.

Signing Duran shows they are willing to pay the going rate for top players. That rate has climbed steadily in the last couple of years. A lot of clubs would like to see a worldwide draft to level the playing field.

Until that happens, teams have to try to compete. Top players in the Caribbean are controlled by a "buscone," a sort of agent/adviser.

"They're more than agents," assistant general manager Bob Miller said. "They sign up 13-, 14-year-old kids. They train them, house them, have their own fields."

The buscone, of course, wants a return on his investment.

"Unless you make a significant signing, the buscones won't even bring around the top kids," Buckley said. "This shows we're back in the game."

The Reds got a chance to sign Duran because Miller was able to interpret a rule in such a way to give the Reds a jump.

Most clubs thought Duran was not eligible to sign until July 2. It's complicated, but the Reds got around that by placing him on the Billings rookie-league roster. He won't play in Billings this year. He'll probably play in the Gulf Coast League.

"Bob Miller did a great job in understanding the rule," Jocketty said.

The rule since has been re-interpreted, Miller said, but the Reds' signing has been approved.

Castellini was not personally involved in the signing.

"They have a budget," Castellini said of his scouts. "They decide how to spend it."

The Duran signing is a risk. He's 6 feet 6, 190 pounds. His power rates 80 on the scouting scale of 20-80. He has good speed and an exceptional arm.

"He's very strong for a kid from the Dominican," Buckley said. "He'll get bigger. Most of the kids down there have never been in a weight room.

"But scouting in the Caribbean is more difficult. You can't go see Juan Duran play with his high school team or traveling team."

Buckley says Duran compares favorably with a No. 1 pick in the draft. It would be nice if he turns out to be another Jay Bruce.

But the bigger thing is the statement the signing makes. If the Reds can become a factor again in Latin America, the signing will be well worth the investment.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080309/COL09/803090388

GoReds33
03-09-2008, 12:37 PM
That's a great article, with great analysis. I had no clue about the connection thing. I knew we hadn't been a factor in Latin America, but I didn't think it would effect us if we went to sign somebody from down there. The more I think about this move, the more I love it.

dougdirt
03-09-2008, 01:52 PM
Cueto for $3500? Sounds like the deal of the century so far.

cincyinco
03-10-2008, 04:34 AM
Miguel cabrerra was pretty cheap as well... IIRC. In the neighborhood of 20K. Coulda been a red but we were to cheap.

WMR
03-10-2008, 07:46 AM
Fay came across like a crying, whining little girl.

WAAAHHHHHHHHH

edabbs44
03-10-2008, 08:25 AM
Miguel cabrerra was pretty cheap as well... IIRC. In the neighborhood of 20K. Coulda been a red but we were to cheap.

If that is true, then Alejandro Pena should have had zero bearing on a subsequent signing of Cabrera.

cincyinco
03-10-2008, 08:33 AM
Shouldn't have but did. Thank Marge /lindner and bowden.

edabbs44
03-10-2008, 08:44 AM
Shouldn't have but did. Thank Marge /lindner and bowden.

If they liked him that much and ownership signed off on that amount for Pena, I really can't see $20k being that much of an issue.

Unless, of course, the scouts were told that if they got signoff on Pena that they were done for the year in intl scouting.

It's easy to point fingers at ownership after the fact.

lollipopcurve
03-10-2008, 08:49 AM
Miguel cabrerra was pretty cheap as well... IIRC. In the neighborhood of 20K. Coulda been a red but we were to cheap.

Cabrera signed for 1.8 million as a 15-year-old. Sometimes huge talent is evident early.

HBP
03-10-2008, 11:08 AM
Castellini was not personally involved in the signing.

"They have a budget," Castellini said of his scouts. "They decide how to spend it."

So...could this affect the #7 pick this year?

lollipopcurve
03-10-2008, 11:25 AM
So...could this affect the #7 pick this year?

Depends on what the budget is, but my guess is that we're looking at a slot signing in round one (this draft has been labeled pedestrian at the top, though that may be a bit premature -- hype tends to rise as June approaches) -- and pretty conservative spending throughout. If the organization is shifting some dollars from the domestic to the foreign market -- and that appears to be the case -- I have no problem with that.

Steve4192
03-10-2008, 12:02 PM
So...could this affect the #7 pick this year?

I don't think so.

I think he was referring to the international scouting department having a budget. I would assume (hope) that the domestic scouting department has a separate budget for the draft.

HBP
03-10-2008, 02:58 PM
I don't think so.

I think he was referring to the international scouting department having a budget. I would assume (hope) that the domestic scouting department has a separate budget for the draft.

Possible, but I assume it's been a long time - if ever - that they've spent this much in the international market. Could be wrong.

princeton
03-10-2008, 03:06 PM
Possible, but I assume it's been a long time - if ever - that they've spent this much in the international market. Could be wrong.

it's a good point, and was an interesting statement by Cast.

WayneK usually budgets well, though.

dougdirt
03-10-2008, 04:14 PM
I would figure that the scouting budget is an overall thing, combining both international signings and draft picks. Last year the Reds spent 4.4 million on their draft budget and likely another 1-1.5 on international prospects. Of that 4.4 million, 3.225 of it was spent on just first and second round picks. That means the Reds spent 1,175,000 on the 3rd-50th rounds. Lets note also that they had 2 3rd round picks this year and will only have 1 this year, so knock off another 300,000 and the Reds are looking to spend about 815,000 to sign their draft picks from rounds 3-50 (including two signings for well over slot in Evan Hildenbrandt getting $200,000 for the 6th round which is about what a late 3rd rounder would get and Derrik Connaster in the 28th round getting $100,000, which was more than the Reds paid for Brandon Waring in the 7th round).

Lets figure that the Reds budget 2.1 million for their 7th pick this year then have the 2 million for Duran (4.1 million), that still likely leaves a budget of 1.25-2 million dollars for the draft and international signings which should be plenty of money to get the job done.

cincyinco
03-10-2008, 05:09 PM
Okay, so I was a bit off on the amount to sign Cabrera.. but


In 1999, the Reds discovered Miguel Cabrera, the 20-year-old wonder kid of the Marlins.

Felix Delgado, the Reds' scout in Venezuela, was Cabrera's youth coach.

Cabrera signed in July 1999. The Reds could have had him for $800,000. But the money wasn't there. One reason was the club had spent $1.9 million to sign Alejandro Diaz in March 1999. Then-scouting director De Jon Watson made the call on Diaz. Diaz is 28 years old. He's never played above Double-A. Cabrera's drawing comparisons to Alex Rodriguez.

http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/10/27/wwwred1a.html

NorrisHopper30
03-10-2008, 05:43 PM
Okay, so I was a bit off on the amount to sign Cabrera.. but



http://reds.enquirer.com/2003/10/27/wwwred1a.html
I feel like barfing.

dougdirt
03-10-2008, 05:45 PM
The main problem with the entire thing is that Diaz wasn't the age everyone thought he was. He aged several years over night one day and well, at that point it surely didn't look nearly as good as believed. The Reds, nor any team, would have paid Diaz nearly that much money had they known his real age.

REDREAD
03-11-2008, 01:17 PM
I'm guessing Fay may have caught a little hell from his editors because he didn't have a mention of it yesterday and he's taking it out on Wayne because he was too lazy to write about it.

I'm going to defend Fay. The Reds announce the signing of a Latin guy that nobody has ever heard of. Fay asks Wayne about it, and Wayne says "Well, we signed him, so we announced it".

Fay's just saying that if Wayne had given him just a little more info, he would've written a story about it.

In Fay's defense, he can't be expected to thoroughly research every Tom, Dick and Harry that the Reds sign.

And I really doubt Fay's bosses care about the coverage of some 16 year old that the Reds sign. It's exciting for the hard core fans, but the average fan could care less about some kid that is 6-7 years away.

REDREAD
03-11-2008, 01:19 PM
Yep, and it's rank amateur behavior on Fay's part. Frankly, it shouldn't have taken a lightning bolt to realize that a $2M signing is a big deal.

But I don't think Wayne or anyone told him it was a 2 million signing.. That's how I read it. Fay asked Wayne about it, and Wayne blew him off. Fay didn't find out it was a 2 million signing until later.

dougdirt
03-11-2008, 01:21 PM
But I don't think Wayne or anyone told him it was a 2 million signing.. That's how I read it. Fay asked Wayne about it, and Wayne blew him off. Fay didn't find out it was a 2 million signing until later.

Wayne didn't tell anyone it was a 2 million dollar signing, but everyone else knew something was up and looked into it.

REDREAD
03-11-2008, 01:25 PM
Diaz bought us no cachet, no resurrection. If anything, that signing seems to have cost us Miguel Cabrera

(BTW, I have always suspected that we would have blown through that $2mill in other ways before Cabrera was available. JimBo could go through money FAST)

Diaz was signed partially to sell the fans that there was going to be this massive influx of young superstars in 2003. In other words, it was an attempt to give some legitimacy to the BS Allen was spouting about being a contender. They also signed some Japaneese kid based on his home video to show they were "active" in the Far East.

And it worked. It got the fans believing and accepting years of substandard payroll and that there would be a pot of gold in 2003.
It certainly worked on this board.

My guess is that Allen would've never approved the Cabara signing regardless. Just as he refused to sign some draft picks over 25k, made Mosely wait a fiscal year to sign, etc. It's clear that when Allen ran the Reds, the short term bottom line was the only thing that mattered.

For Allen, Diaz was a good investment. That 1.6 million spent allowed him to justify slashing ML payroll.

REDREAD
03-11-2008, 01:32 PM
If they liked him that much and ownership signed off on that amount for Pena, I really can't see $20k being that much of an issue.
.

Allen has a very documented history over crying over small amounts of money. You can't apply logic to it.
They refused to sign Jason Arnold over a small amount.. I forget the exact amount but I think it was around 20k.. the kid eventually was a key player in the Felipe-Dessens trade.

Every year under Allen, the Reds drafted primarily based on signablity, not talent.

Allen was the guy that decided to shave off things off the GAB that only saved a grand or two.. He was absurdly cheap.

REDREAD
03-11-2008, 01:34 PM
Okay, so I was a bit off on the amount to sign Cabrera.. but


No, you are remembering right.
Reportedly, the Reds could've signed him cheap, but passed.
Then his Latin agent shopped him around and his price went through the roof. At least that's how I remember it.

Chip R
03-11-2008, 01:35 PM
I'm going to defend Fay. The Reds announce the signing of a Latin guy that nobody has ever heard of. Fay asks Wayne about it, and Wayne says "Well, we signed him, so we announced it".

Fay's just saying that if Wayne had given him just a little more info, he would've written a story about it.

In Fay's defense, he can't be expected to thoroughly research every Tom, Dick and Harry that the Reds sign.

And I really doubt Fay's bosses care about the coverage of some 16 year old that the Reds sign. It's exciting for the hard core fans, but the average fan could care less about some kid that is 6-7 years away.

As Doug said, other outlets were reporting this as a main story and did some legwork and found out that it was a pretty big deal. Meanwhile Fay sits in his condo and sticks pins in his Homer Bailey doll.

I don't think Fay's bosses care about that either. What they do care about is getting scooped by every other major outlet. Maybe they don't give a crap but it's his typical lazy reporting. Then he blames the fact that he didn't have a story on it on Wayne when everybody else in camp had the story. I may not agree with everything Marty says but he didn't hang the "Bank President" nickname on him cause he sits on a lot of money.

TRF
03-11-2008, 01:36 PM
Allen has a very documented history over crying over small amounts of money. You can't apply logic to it.
They refused to sign Jason Arnold over a small amount.. I forget the exact amount but I think it was around 20k.. the kid eventually was a key player in the Felipe-Dessens trade.

Every year under Allen, the Reds drafted primarily based on signablity, not talent.

Allen was the guy that decided to shave off things off the GAB that only saved a grand or two.. He was absurdly cheap.

except it wasn't 20K, as has been documented in this thread.

dougdirt
03-11-2008, 01:38 PM
except it wasn't 20K, as has been documented in this thread.

No, but the rumors were it was something as small as a $25,000 difference between what Cabrera wanted and what we were willing to pay. How truthful that is, no one can really be sure.

REDREAD
03-11-2008, 01:46 PM
Wayne didn't tell anyone it was a 2 million dollar signing, but everyone else knew something was up and looked into it.

Basically, the other reporters are smart enough to know that Wayne isn't a good source of information and asked other people in the Reds' org, I'll give you that.

REDREAD
03-11-2008, 01:48 PM
I don't think Fay's bosses care about that either. What they do care about is getting scooped by every other major outlet. .

See, in the grand scheme of things, this really isn't a scoop.
Like I said, it's big news to us hardcore fans that spend an hour or more per day on a baseball message board. Everyone else would probably rather read a Homer story.

REDREAD
03-11-2008, 01:50 PM
except it wasn't 20K, as has been documented in this thread.

Carbara agreed to sign for a low amount. I can't recall the exact amount, but it was less than 100k. Basically, the Reds discovered him.

As soon as Allen refused to sign him, the kid hooked up with the equivalent of an agent and drove the price up.

Chip R
03-11-2008, 02:10 PM
See, in the grand scheme of things, this really isn't a scoop.
Like I said, it's big news to us hardcore fans that spend an hour or more per day on a baseball message board. Everyone else would probably rather read a Homer story.


No, it's not necessarily a scoop but when all the other outlets have it and the Enquirer doesn't for whatever reason, you have to think that they weren't too happy about not having a story about it for a couple of days. Especially since it did turn out to be a big deal.

If Adam Dunn sprains his ankle and the Reds play it down and guys like Hal and Trent and the guy from the Reds web site do a little digging and find out it's very serious and the Reds weren't being forthcoming about it. If Fay just blows it off as no big deal, you can bet that when the story breaks and the Enquirer doesn't have it, you think his editors are going to be happy about it?

CrackerJack
03-25-2008, 03:25 PM
Hope he gets a bigger bat soon with all that dough.

http://www.eldia.com.do/image.ashx?file=photos/b675ea26-a5f5-47a8-bde7-7904bbae021c.jpg|0,0,500,500,500,500&size=500

OnBaseMachine
05-01-2008, 01:29 PM
The next Liriano?: It's eight years ago now since the Giants handed a $900,000 signing bonus to a 16-year-old Dominican pitcher by the name of Francisco Liriano. It's believed that no pitcher (non-Cuban division) has topped that bonus since. But there's so much buzz about a 16-year-old Dominican right-hander named Michel Inoa, it looks as if Liriano's record is in serious danger this summer. More than a dozen teams are in on Inoa, who is already hitting 94 on the gun -- at age 16.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings

I wonder if the Reds are one of the teams in on this kid? The Reds have already landed the best hitting prospect in this years International class, who not go for the best pitcher too?

Buckeye33
05-01-2008, 02:39 PM
The next Liriano?: It's eight years ago now since the Giants handed a $900,000 signing bonus to a 16-year-old Dominican pitcher by the name of Francisco Liriano. It's believed that no pitcher (non-Cuban division) has topped that bonus since. But there's so much buzz about a 16-year-old Dominican right-hander named Michel Inoa, it looks as if Liriano's record is in serious danger this summer. More than a dozen teams are in on Inoa, who is already hitting 94 on the gun -- at age 16.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings

I wonder if the Reds are one of the teams in on this kid? The Reds have already landed the best hitting prospect in this years International class, who not go for the best pitcher too?

I would guess that with the new ownership group they are attempting to be in on this kid, the only problem is that the only reason they got to sign Duran was because they found a loop hole in the rules.

That is not the case with this other 16 year old. Everyone will be in on him the whole time. And everyone knows that equals the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Angels.

fearofpopvol1
05-01-2008, 03:45 PM
• The next Liriano?: It's eight years ago now since the Giants handed a $900,000 signing bonus to a 16-year-old Dominican pitcher by the name of Francisco Liriano. It's believed that no pitcher (non-Cuban division) has topped that bonus since. But there's so much buzz about a 16-year-old Dominican right-hander named Michel Inoa, it looks as if Liriano's record is in serious danger this summer. More than a dozen teams are in on Inoa, who is already hitting 94 on the gun -- at age 16.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings

I wonder if the Reds are one of the teams in on this kid? The Reds have already landed the best hitting prospect in this years International class, who not go for the best pitcher too?

Highly unlikely they'd be a comeptitor in that race. They just gave Duran a ton of change, I doubt they can afford to throw a bunch more (and in a bidding war no less) get this kid.

I hope I'm wrong though!

NorrisHopper30
05-01-2008, 04:25 PM
94 at age 16? Are you kidding me.

Slyder
05-01-2008, 04:45 PM
94 at age 16? Are you kidding me.

I call schenanagans. Theres no way a 16 yr old is getting 94. maybe 19-20 but not at 16.

dougdirt
05-01-2008, 05:04 PM
I call schenanagans. Theres no way a 16 yr old is getting 94. maybe 19-20 but not at 16.

Its certainly possible. If 18 year olds can hit 98+ why couldn't a 16 year old hit 94? He isn't likely throwing there consistently, but hitting it isn't far from believable.

Redman15
05-01-2008, 05:20 PM
It's also possible he pulled a Miguel Tejada and really was 20 yrs old;)

Blue
05-01-2008, 06:19 PM
I call schenanagans. Theres no way a 16 yr old is getting 94. maybe 19-20 but not at 16.

Don't forget Jared Jeffries and his heretofore squandered 100 mph heat.

sweetsport06
05-01-2008, 08:16 PM
Jeremy Jefferies?

dougdirt
05-02-2008, 12:55 AM
Jeremy Jeffress?

camisadelgolf
05-02-2008, 02:52 AM
Jeff Jeffords? (This game is fun.)

camisadelgolf
05-02-2008, 02:53 AM
Jeff Juden?

camisadelgolf
05-02-2008, 02:54 AM
Jeremy Johnson?

Screwball
05-02-2008, 09:32 AM
Jeremy Johnson?

Jeremi Johnson?

camisadelgolf
05-02-2008, 10:57 AM
Janet Jackson?

texasdave
05-02-2008, 11:23 AM
Judy Jetson? Junior Jedi?

texasdave
05-02-2008, 11:24 AM
John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt?

RedEye
05-02-2008, 11:38 AM
Jennifer Jason Leigh?
Judge Judy?
Jim J. Bullock?

dougdirt
05-02-2008, 12:28 PM
John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt?

Texasdave wins in my opinion.

Blitz Dorsey
05-07-2008, 10:15 PM
Juan Duran is good. I can't wait to see him in a Reds uniform. Back in those 12-year-old leagues in the DC, dude was unstoppable.

LawFive
05-12-2008, 06:18 PM
The Jeff Johanson memory builder-upper...or is that Jim Johnson?

OnBaseMachine
05-16-2008, 12:20 PM
WHO WANTS TO BE A $6-MILLIONAIRE: Two weeks ago in Rumblings, we wrote about the buzz building around 16-year-old Dominican pitcher Michel Inoa. One scouting director told us this week the Yankees and Mariners are already sending signals they're prepared to throw $3 million to $4 million at Inoa -- which would double the largest bonus ever for a Dominican pitcher -- "and it wouldn't surprise me if somebody eventually goes to $6 million." Whew. The bidding doesn't open until July 2, if you want to mark your calendars.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings

dougdirt
05-16-2008, 12:35 PM
That much money for a pitcher at the age of 16 is literally playing the lottery.... goodluck to whoever does it.

OnBaseMachine
06-17-2008, 06:10 PM
From John Fay:

Duran has been assigned to Dominican Summer League Reds roster. He hasn't played yet. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't play at all this year.

I hope he's wrong. I]m hoping Duran gets a few atbats this season.

HBP
06-18-2008, 11:25 AM
Doesn't this have to happen at some point this season?


The Reds realized that they could sign Duran if they assigned him to their 2008 roster in Billings in the Rookie-level Pioneer League, where the regular season ends on Sept. 5. Since Duran will turn 17 before the end of the 2008 Pioneer League season, he was eligible to sign before the 2008 international signing period and was eligible to sign back on his birthday last year.

Blitz Dorsey
06-18-2008, 11:28 AM
Doesn't this have to happen at some point this season?

I remember reading that too. Hopefully that is exactly what happens. He will probably be overmatched, but I would love to see him get some PT at Billings. If he plays well, we might have something really special.

HBP
06-18-2008, 11:29 AM
Duran had 2 ab's in the DSL league yesterday:
1 BB, 1 K

Profile (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Juan%20Duran&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=544269)

OnBaseMachine
06-18-2008, 11:31 AM
Duran had 2 ab's in the DSL league yesterday:
1 BB, 1 K

Profile (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Juan%20Duran&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=544269)

Awesome find. Thanks.

Duran is listed as 6'5" 190 in his stat page.

camisadelgolf
06-18-2008, 11:59 AM
Doesn't this have to happen at some point this season?

He doesn't actually have to play for Billings or even visit the city of Billings. He only needed to be placed on the roster at some point during the season. Maybe it was a technicality that someone in the Reds system interprited in a way to use to the Reds' advantage.

dougdirt
06-18-2008, 12:22 PM
Duran had 2 ab's in the DSL league yesterday:
1 BB, 1 K

Profile (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Juan%20Duran&pos=OF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=544269)

0-2 with a walk and a HBP.... not shabby.

crazyredfan40
06-18-2008, 03:40 PM
0-2 with a walk and a HBP.... not shabby.

Bust...No hits...

klw
06-18-2008, 07:07 PM
Strikes out too much

Yachtzee
06-18-2008, 07:35 PM
Its certainly possible. If 18 year olds can hit 98+ why couldn't a 16 year old hit 94? He isn't likely throwing there consistently, but hitting it isn't far from believable.

The trick is being able to hit that at 22. How many Texas phenoms have walked out of school hitting mid-90s only to wash out before hitting the majors?

sjesu
06-19-2008, 03:51 PM
The trick is being able to hit that at 22. How many Texas phenoms have walked out of school hitting mid-90s only to wash out before hitting the majors?

Paging Colt Griffin to this thread. Colt Griffin to this thread, please.

TOBTTReds
06-19-2008, 06:38 PM
No running thread on his games??

2-4 yesterday, 1 k

OnBaseMachine
06-20-2008, 08:43 PM
Duran went 2-for-4 with two triples, a walk, and a stolen base today. Through four career games Duran is 5-for-12 with two triples, three walks, two HBP and a stolen base. What a great start for the 16-year old Duran.

NorrisHopper30
06-20-2008, 08:50 PM
Duran went 2-for-4 with two triples, a walk, and a stolen base today. Through four career games Duran is 5-for-12 with two triples, three walks, two HBP and a stolen base. What a great start for the 16-year old Duran.
Is he fast or were they just well placed?

dougdirt
06-20-2008, 08:51 PM
Is he fast or were they just well placed?

Likely both. We will never know. The coverage of the DSL goes about as far as a box score and recap. One went to CF and one went to RF.

NorrisHopper30
06-20-2008, 08:53 PM
Likely both. We will never know. The coverage of the DSL goes about as far as a box score and recap. One went to CF and one went to RF.

Either way, those are ridiculous stats for a 16 year old in the DSL, I don't care if it's a small sample size.

camisadelgolf
06-21-2008, 02:56 AM
Juan Duran might just be the Reds' biggest prospect.

cincyinco
06-21-2008, 04:05 AM
Juan Duran might just be the Reds' biggest prospect.


Biggest how? his height?

If you are talkin in terms of ceiling or current prospect status, I'd prob have to disagree. He might be up there, but let him get state side first. If they sign Yonder, he's #1 IMO.

camisadelgolf
06-21-2008, 07:45 AM
Biggest how? his height?

If you are talkin in terms of ceiling or current prospect status, I'd prob have to disagree. He might be up there, but let him get state side first. If they sign Yonder, he's #1 IMO.

I'm a big fan of Yonder Alonso, Todd Frazier, etc., but the big knock against them has been that their ceiling might prevent them from being true, impact players. Juan Duran, on the other hand . . . it looks like the sky's the limit. If I were to make a Reds top-ten prospect list, I'd probably put Duran at number three, but I'm just stating that you could make the argument that he belongs at number one, and I wouldn't disagree with you.

cincyinco
06-21-2008, 08:01 AM
If we were talking in terms of ceiling only I might agree. I can certainly undertand where you're coming from.

But, for me he's not top 3, yet. I certainly believe he has the potential to be, I just think he's a bit too much of an unknown quantity at this point. That could all change real soon though.

I'm excited to have him and I hope we land a couple other big international talents here when the signing period begins.

OnBaseMachine
06-21-2008, 11:34 AM
DURAN DEBUT: Juan Duran, the 16-year-old outfielder the Reds signed for $3 million, made his debut three days ago with the Reds team in the Dominican Summer League.

He's 3-for-8 with two walks after three games. Duran is listed at 6 feet 3, 190 pounds.

"He's going to be a big, strong man," player development director Terry Reynolds said. "He's got great bat speed, great power. He has everything the scouts like. But you've got to remember, if he's in the States, he's a high school sophomore."

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080621/SPT04/806210421/

Fay made a mistake. Duran is actually 6'5".

Joseph
06-21-2008, 11:52 AM
Are we sure Fay made the mistake, or did Reynolds?

Maybe the Reds did.

How many times growing up did you have someone say 'Oh I'm 6'-1" or 6'-2"' then the next time someone says it they are 6'-2" then the next time you hear it from yet someone else they are 6'-3"?

Its like the whispering game, by the end of the line the story is a little different. 6'-1" or 6'-2" may have grown into 6'-5" just by word of mouth.

OnBaseMachine
06-21-2008, 11:54 AM
Are we sure Fay made the mistake, or did Reynolds?

Maybe the Reds did.

How many times growing up did you have someone say 'Oh I'm 6'-1" or 6'-2"' then the next time someone says it they are 6'-2" then the next time you hear it from yet someone else they are 6'-3"?

Its like the whispering game, by the end of the line the story is a little different. 6'-1" or 6'-2" may have grown into 6'-5" just by word of mouth.

BA reported Duran as 6'5" or 6'6" and milb.com lists him at 6'5" 190. Fay just made a mistake.

OnBaseMachine
06-21-2008, 04:22 PM
Fay corrected himself on his blog:

Duran, Duran
Posted by JohnFay at 6/21/2008 12:54 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Juan Duran, the $3 million 16-year-old, went 2-for-4 with two triples and a walk for the Reds team in the Dominican Summer League. He's hitting .417 with .588 on-base. In 13 of his 15 plate appearances have ended in a hit, walk or strikeout.

"He's got great bat speed, great power," Terry Reynolds, the Reds farm director said. "He's going to be a big, strong man at some point. Right now, if he's in the states a he's a high school sophomore."

Duran is 6-foot-5, 190 pounds right now.

http://beta.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3aa4dce95f-0720-4641-9d55-72cb9f94245d&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

cincyinco
06-21-2008, 07:02 PM
Didn't he sign for 2 million and not 3?

OnBaseMachine
06-21-2008, 07:04 PM
Didn't he sign for 2 million and not 3?

Yeah he signed for 2 million. Fay is on a roll today.

Oxilon
06-21-2008, 08:09 PM
Juan Duran might just be the Reds' biggest prospect.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. He's still atleast 5 years away from every sniffing the majors, and even though he may be oozing potential, let's remember so was Ricardo Aramboles.

RedlegJake
06-21-2008, 11:14 PM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. He's still atleast 5 years away from every sniffing the majors, and even though he may be oozing potential, let's remember so was Ricardo Aramboles.

You are right. Of course, Aramboles was a pitcher, less risk with a position player but even so, lets not anoint the guy just yet. He's got a long way to go to even hit A ball.

cincyinco
06-21-2008, 11:25 PM
What happened to Aramboles? Did he go to Japan?

VR
06-21-2008, 11:26 PM
Sheesh...I'd be concerned that he grows another 3-4 inches in his next two years. Not too many successful 6'9"ers with MLB careers

cincyinco
06-21-2008, 11:28 PM
Yeah, usually when you're that tall you pitch..

I don't think he's going to grow much taller, but he should add weight to his wiry frame.

Screwball
06-22-2008, 11:18 PM
The DSL Reds last played yesterday but lost to the White Sox affiliate 5-3. Juan Duran went 0-4 with a strikeout and no walks. Milb.com has his line at: .313/.476/.563/1.039.

Oxilon
06-23-2008, 02:32 PM
What happened to Aramboles? Did he go to Japan?

I just figured he had retired. IIRC, his career was pretty much derailed after one arm injury after another. So much for the next Pedro Martinez...

bellhead
06-23-2008, 05:08 PM
Where does Juan go next if he keeps hitting? Extended spring training, then maybe he goes to Billings or the GCL? If he responds then what?

OnBaseMachine
06-23-2008, 05:25 PM
Where does Juan go next if he keeps hitting? Extended spring training, then maybe he goes to Billings or the GCL? If he responds then what?

My guess is he stays in the DSL all season. He's only 16 years old so the Reds probably want him to stay close to home and remain comfortable. Next year is when I expect him to come over to the United States and maybe play in Billings.

shank.58
06-23-2008, 05:47 PM
ORLANDO, Fla. -- The Texas Rangers and Cincinnati Reds have joined the Oakland Athletics in a bidding feud for the services of Dominican pitching prospect Michael Inoa, the crown jewel of the pool of Latin American players who will be available to be signed July 2, a source has told ESPNdeportes.com.

"Oakland has led the pack of teams interested in Inoa, but both Cincinnati and Texas have surged in the past few days, and it is now a three-horse race of big favorites to grab this kid," the source said.

"Some teams have offered him a major league contract in order to make the offer even more attractive, but Inoa's team is not interested in that. The battle may be fought until the last minutes," the source added.
I don't know if anyone has posted this yet, but it was on espn.com today concering Inoa...



July 2 marks the beginning of the eligibility period for players who turn 17 years old after Sept. 6, though they won't be able to play until next year. Players 17 or older may sign anytime.

Inoa, 16, at 6 feet 7 and 210 pounds, is a right-hander with a repertoire consisting of a 93-mph fastball, a changeup and a curveball.

The young prospect has been evaluated by every major league organization. General manager Billy Beane and a group of Oakland executives even traveled to Dominican Republic to evaluate Inoa.

According to data obtained by ESPNdeportes.com, at least seven teams were ready to give Inoa a bonus of more than $3 million, but many of them, including the New York Yankees, pulled out of the race as the price for the young ace went up.

shank.58
06-23-2008, 05:50 PM
The above article is from espn.com: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3457855

OnBaseMachine
06-23-2008, 05:52 PM
Whoa, what's awesome. Do you care to provide a link?

Nevermind. You beat me to it. BTW we should probably make a new thread for big news like that.