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View Full Version : Hal McCoy on XM..... "Homer is a little bit of a head case..."



RFS62
03-04-2008, 10:06 AM
Hal McCoy was just on Charlie Steiner's XM show.

When asked about Homer Bailey he said....."Homer is a little bit of a headcase. He doesn't like to listen to people. He might get a dose of Louisville..."

BRM
03-04-2008, 10:08 AM
I thought Dusty Baker said the opposite of that the other day?

lollipopcurve
03-04-2008, 10:10 AM
He might get a dose of Louisville...

I'd be stunned if he doesn't.

Joseph
03-04-2008, 10:10 AM
If Homer turns out to be good, this will someday be viewed as knowing his job and being strong willed and determined.

princeton
03-04-2008, 10:13 AM
If Homer turns out to be good, this will someday be viewed as knowing his job and being strong willed and determined.

If

Ltlabner
03-04-2008, 10:13 AM
I opined last year that *maybe* part of the sudden about face regarding starting Homer might be to teach him a lesson that he needs to listen to their advice, he can't do it all his own way, he has to work on controll, etc. Sometimes hard-headed people have to learn the hard way and letting him get thrashed a bit was to show him that he doesn't have it all figured out.

Not saying this is proof that I was correct, but maybe my tea-leaves reading was closer to being right than wrong.

Chip R
03-04-2008, 10:14 AM
Hal McCoy was just on Charlie Steiner's XM show.

When asked about Homer Bailey he said....."Homer is a little bit of a headcase. He doesn't like to listen to people. He might get a dose of Louisville..."


I heard the same thing last year from a friend who went down to ST and talked to Brantley.

princeton
03-04-2008, 10:15 AM
I heard the same thing last year from a friend who went down to ST and talked to Brantley.

I channeled Farney once, and he basically said the same. He has a squeaky voice.

traderumor
03-04-2008, 10:19 AM
I wouldn't call that being a headcase, I'd call it immaturity. Why people expect a baseball player to be more mature in their approach to taking instruction than the general population, I have no idea. Homer seems to be acting his age, which is another reason that he should not be depended upon this season but continue to learn and mature mentally and physically.

But then, I guess Hal has never been one to avoid overdramatizing a topic.

Aronchis
03-04-2008, 10:19 AM
I opined last year that *maybe* part of the sudden about face regarding starting Homer might be to teach him a lesson that he needs to listen to their advice, he can't do it all his own way, he has to work on controll, etc. Sometimes hard-headed people have to learn the hard way and letting him get thrashed a bit was to show him that he doesn't have it all figured out.

Not saying this is proof that I was correct, but maybe my tea-leaves reading was closer to being right than wrong.

Interesting, especially if he wasn't healthy. Sorta of like, we know you aren't at your best, but your seeing how crappy your way is, we are going to teach you a lessen.

That may explain the more "mentor-student" thing going on this spring with Pole.

That said, Bailey will always be a bit crazy IMO. That has its upsides.

remdog
03-04-2008, 10:20 AM
John Fay alluded (somewhat) to this the other day after trying to interview Homer.

Why do I have this sinking feeling that Homer will struggle off and on and show flashes of brilliance but never really dominate until it's his free agency year. Then, he will walk away from the Reds because of bad feelings towards the team for not letting him do it 'his way'. He'll sign with someone else and be gangbusters.

I just got up so maybe that was just a bad dream I had last night.

Rem

Team Clark
03-04-2008, 10:49 AM
I have no problem with Homer being a head case as long as he doesn't turn into a Brett Tomko.

I have heard conflicting stories about Homer's behavior and I am not going to cast him in any light. I simply haven't seen or heard enough. I doubt any one person on this board has.

One POSITIVE story about Homer is when he went to work in Sarasota last year to recover from his groin issues. Tom Brown, the former Marlins Pitching Coordinator, stayed with him the entire time. Homer worked with him DAILY on mechanics, approach to hitters, grips, his breaking ball you name it. When Homer came back to the Reds his delivery was noticeably improved and like magic his breaking balls were getting over for strikes. Obviously the kid listens well enough at times to grasp what he is being taught.

My contention for the last 4-5 years is that there have been numerous coaches in the organization that couldn't help a high school team much less a Homer Bailey. As I have noticed this season looking at the coaches in camp that situation has improved somewhat. Players know who is full of it and who they "WANT" to listen too. Something tells me Homer may not be as dumb as some people think.

M2
03-04-2008, 11:05 AM
Homer's always been a head case. That's not really news. I'll go out on a limb and posit that most very good pitchers are head cases. Now, that doesn't mean Bailey will be a very good pitcher, just that him being a difficult human is far from a disqualifier.

My take is when you're asking someone to do something that most humans can' do, alternative wiring is probably a plus.

westofyou
03-04-2008, 11:07 AM
Sal Maglie was a "Head Case"... Bob Gibson, Steve Carlton, Dizzy Dean, Dolph Luque.... and on and on....

BRM
03-04-2008, 11:10 AM
This is what Baker said earlier in ST.



There were whispers last year that Bailey wasn't very coachable. Baker hasn't seen that.

“Sometimes you need to fail to really listen," Baker said. "He’s been all ears basically, which you like in a young player. But sometimes they have to fail before they listen.”

redsmetz
03-04-2008, 11:19 AM
Anyone else get the feeling that Hal's just woken up? Dusty comments are at least a week old. Was Hal absent that day? I think Hal's going off old news and just looking for his moment in the sun.

flyer85
03-04-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm more interested in how he pitches than anything else.

RedsManRick
03-04-2008, 11:21 AM
I agree, lots of very good pitchers are head cases. Most great athletes are. The question is whether Bailey puts it together or not. It's clear that he needs to improve. I don't really care if he listens carefully or figures it out on his own, but if he doesn't improve -- be it by a refusal to listen, stubbornness, or a simple inability to master certain skills -- he won't pan out.

I wonder how much of his persona is simply a texas-born pride, a desire to appear self-sufficient and strong? There's a defiance in guys like Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Kerry Wood etc. which sends the message "nobody can make me do anything" even if they are really willing to listen and learn.

princeton
03-04-2008, 11:27 AM
I'm always more worried about the pitchers without self-confidence than the pitchers that are, well, full of it.

however, if Reds aren't going to pitch him because of attitude, then it becomes more problematic.

Highlifeman21
03-04-2008, 11:28 AM
Interesting, especially if he wasn't healthy. Sorta of like, we know you aren't at your best, but your seeing how crappy your way is, we are going to teach you a lessen.

That may explain the more "mentor-student" thing going on this spring with Pole.

That said, Bailey will always be a bit crazy IMO. That has its upsides.

I'm glad you brought up "healthy".

IIRC, a few of us around here have considered his groin injury a phantom injury, and the timing of the injury and how it was accordingly handled fuels some of the fire to that logic.

It's pretty simple. Kid thinks he's better than he is. Kid's promoted. Kid gets the tar beat out of him. Kid is then "injured". Kid goes through an extended "rehab" assignment. Kid comes back up and has limited success vs. call-up lineups.

Maybe the Reds brought Bailey up prematurely in an attempt to humble him. I'm wondering if it worked. So far, it seems that it hasn't.

traderumor
03-04-2008, 11:38 AM
Maybe the Reds brought Bailey up prematurely in an attempt to humble him. I'm wondering if it worked. So far, it seems that it hasn't.How could something work off of what you consider to be a "maybe?" And I think that "maybe" is in the realm of the lawyer's "is it possible" trick--the likelihood that the Reds brought up their top pitching prospect to "humble" him is up there with the possibility that someone is going to walk up on the street and ask me if they can clean a winter's worth of dog crap out of my backyard for free.

RANDY IN INDY
03-04-2008, 11:50 AM
There is a difference between spirit and temperament. It is a slight difference, but it is an important one. I valued players with spirit and avoided those who were temperamental. Spirit is good. Temperament is bad. A leader is charged with recognizing the difference.

Former UCLA coach John Wooden.


You want your great players to be spirited, if they use it for "competitive greatness." Being able to enjoy the challenge of professional sports when things get difficult and knowing in your own mind that you can be at your best when your best is needed is essential to being able to perform at your highest level. Is that part of being "clutch?" I really think so. Competitors know that the greatest chance to produce at the highest level is when you are "on the stage." For me, temperamental players are nothing but a distraction. As Wooden noted, the difference is a very fine line. Real talent evaluators can discern the difference.

M2
03-04-2008, 11:59 AM
Good post Randy.

Spitball
03-04-2008, 12:01 PM
I have no problem with Homer being a head case as long as he doesn't turn into a Brett Tomko.


My exact thoughts when I saw this heading.

icehole3
03-04-2008, 12:11 PM
This is what Baker said earlier in ST.

yeah and when he said that it flew right over my head.

gonelong
03-04-2008, 12:23 PM
You want your great players to be spirited, if they use it for "competitive greatness." Being able to enjoy the challenge of professional sports when things get difficult and knowing in your own mind that you can be at your best when your best is needed is essential to being able to perform at your highest level. Is that part of being "clutch?" I really think so.

This is right along the lines where I really began to embrace "clutch" as the ability maintain your level of play no matter the circumstances. Its not really "rising to the challenge" IMO, its being prepared for the challenge and confident in your abilities to mee it. Its not neccessarily a one game or one season timeline. Its being prepared mentally and physically prepared to face each challenge, expected and unexpected.


Competitors know that the greatest chance to produce at the highest level is when you are "on the stage." For me, temperamental players are nothing but a distraction. As Wooden noted, the difference is a very fine line. Real talent evaluators can discern the difference.

Its part of the "it". Some guys really do just have "it", and you can tell.

GL

princeton
03-04-2008, 12:35 PM
has Dusty said anything negative all spring? He even talked up Majewski right before his shellacking.

Dusty sounds like Sparky. Too bad he's Bench-less and Rose-less and Morgan-less and Perez-less...

Reds/Flyers Fan
03-04-2008, 12:39 PM
Eric Bedard's not a headcase. He's just a winner. Can't have that around here.

OldXOhio
03-04-2008, 12:45 PM
Homer's always been a head case. That's not really news. I'll go out on a limb and posit that most very good pitchers are head cases. Now, that doesn't mean Bailey will be a very good pitcher, just that him being a difficult human is far from a disqualifier.



The old Crash Davis line "if you're a slob in the show, they think you're colorful...down here you're just a slob" comes to mind.

If Homer "the head case" can hone his stuff, he's a very good pitcher who happens to be strong willed.

George Anderson
03-04-2008, 12:47 PM
Bailey is only 22 years old. Alot of people at age 22 myself included were headcases at this point in life.

"Sports Century" had an episode on this morning about Curt Schilling and what a head case he was (and some say still is) early on in his career. He will grow out of it like most do!!

remdog
03-04-2008, 12:55 PM
:clap:
You want your great players to be spirited, if they use it for "competitive greatness." Being able to enjoy the challenge of professional sports when things get difficult and knowing in your own mind that you can be at your best when your best is needed is essential to being able to perform at your highest level. Is that part of being "clutch?" I really think so. Competitors know that the greatest chance to produce at the highest level is when you are "on the stage." For me, temperamental players are nothing but a distraction. As Wooden noted, the difference is a very fine line. Real talent evaluators can discern the difference. :clap:

Rem

Chip R
03-04-2008, 12:56 PM
has Dusty said anything negative all spring? He even talked up Majewski right before his shellacking.



Don't think so. That's why the kids love him.

Always Red
03-04-2008, 12:58 PM
The old Crash Davis line "if you're a slob in the show, they think you're colorful...down here you're just a slob" comes to mind.

If Homer "the head case" can hone his stuff, he's a very good pitcher who happens to be strong willed.

When I read Fay's article following Homer's outing, I thought "well, sounds like Homer's kind of a jerk." And I thought that because that's what John Fay wanted us to think:



Young Homer was terse.

How it go out there?

"You saw it."

How go from your perspective?

"All right. I was rushing a bit with (Carl) Crawford on. He's stole a bag or tow in his day. I settled down and got outs."

It didn't get much better than that. Homer's a bit of a smart ass. That works when you're good. If not, it gets annoying. Now, back to action.

The very next day he wrote about Aaron Harang's outing, when Harang got roughed up a bit. He wrote this:


Harang, by the by, was cordial and filled our notebooks following a how-did-it-go-out-there question.

Sounds like Homer's gotten under some skins, and Fay in particular contrasted Homer to Aaron Harang's completely professional behavior.

Probably a combination of being immature, and somewhat used to having everything come naturally and easily to him. He's been the golden child his entire life. I think he'll grow out of it, or at least I hope he does. But if he doesn't, I don't really care, as I have no desire to be his friend, will most probably never meet him or hang with him, and all I really care about is if he pitches well, and shows up when he is supposed to!

I'd like to think that I am a nicer person now than I was when I was a 22 year old jerk (I still have my days though...):D

LoganBuck
03-04-2008, 01:11 PM
Yawn, another talented young player being berated for the way he deals with the media.

Adam Dunn should give him a hug, it is a right of passage.

Team Clark
03-04-2008, 01:43 PM
When I read Fay's article following Homer's outing, I thought "well, sounds like Homer's kind of a jerk." And I thought that because that's what John Fay wanted us to think:



The very next day he wrote about Aaron Harang's outing, when Harang got roughed up a bit. He wrote this:



Sounds like Homer's gotten under some skins, and Fay in particular contrasted Homer to Aaron Harang's completely professional behavior.

Probably a combination of being immature, and somewhat used to having everything come naturally and easily to him. He's been the golden child his entire life. I think he'll grow out of it, or at least I hope he does. But if he doesn't, I don't really care, as I have no desire to be his friend, will most probably never meet him or hang with him, and all I really care about is if he pitches well, and shows up when he is supposed to!

I'd like to think that I am a nicer person now than I was when I was a 22 year old jerk (I still have my days though...):D

Maybe Fay talks like he writes... that would annoy the hell out of me and illicit some smart elleck remarks as well. :D

Always Red
03-04-2008, 01:46 PM
Maybe Fay talks like he writes... that would annoy the hell out of me and illicit some smart elleck remarks as well. :D

I hear ya! ;)

membengal
03-04-2008, 02:19 PM
I'm Hal McCoy.

And, I'm John Fay.

Together we are a super-team of label givers! And once we are done giving out labels, try as you might, they are not coming off!

Fear our power. Fear it.

PS: We are thinking of adding Dusty Baker to our super-team because of his fine work attempting to label Jay Bruce!

lollipopcurve
03-04-2008, 02:24 PM
And, I'm John Fay.

AKA, the banker. The banker would prefer that the ballplayer oblige by filling his notebook with quotes, so that the banker might have to write less original copy, thereby permitting him to leave work at a respectable hour.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 02:25 PM
I'm glad you brought up "healthy".

IIRC, a few of us around here have considered his groin injury a phantom injury, and the timing of the injury and how it was accordingly handled fuels some of the fire to that logic.

It's pretty simple. Kid thinks he's better than he is. Kid's promoted. Kid gets the tar beat out of him. Kid is then "injured". Kid goes through an extended "rehab" assignment. Kid comes back up and has limited success vs. call-up lineups.


You have to be kidding me.

traderumor
03-04-2008, 02:32 PM
You want your great players to be spirited, if they use it for "competitive greatness." Being able to enjoy the challenge of professional sports when things get difficult and knowing in your own mind that you can be at your best when your best is needed is essential to being able to perform at your highest level. Is that part of being "clutch?" I really think so. Competitors know that the greatest chance to produce at the highest level is when you are "on the stage." For me, temperamental players are nothing but a distraction. As Wooden noted, the difference is a very fine line. Real talent evaluators can discern the difference.

i.e. Jose Guillen "temperamental," Roger Clemens "spirited" (roid issue notwithstanding ;) )

red-in-la
03-04-2008, 03:36 PM
When you are asked to learn from bad teachers, you can easily be labeled unteachable.

To add to woy's list, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens are all free spirits.

Eric Davis was virtually uncoachable......just sayin'

M2
03-04-2008, 05:00 PM
Eric Davis was virtually uncoachable......just sayin'

My understanding is that is 100% wrong. He was a textbook OF and base stealer. In the field, he backed up plays and routinely hit the cutoff man. He either owns is just a shade off of the career SB% record. The guy soaked up pretty much everything he was ever told. Read his autobiography sometime and that becomes clear.

dabvu2498
03-04-2008, 05:04 PM
When you are asked to learn from bad teachers, you can easily be labeled unteachable.

To add to woy's list, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens are all free spirits.



Babe Ruth, too... Of course, is Homer actually as talented as any of those guys??? Half as talented?

If he actually is, no one will give a rat's if he's a flake and doesn't like to take direction. That's all on him, IMO.

MikeS21
03-04-2008, 05:59 PM
One of the most telling things I recall from last year's spring training was the visit by Mario Soto, who seemed to draw all the young pitchers to him and was able to show them how to throw his patented change-up. Cueto caught on immediately, and from what I read, so did a few others.

What was very interesting is that among all the names mentioned who flocked to Soto, to learn his change-up, Homer Bailey was never named among them. Now you would think that a kid who has the ceiling that Bailey has, and the weak change-up that Bailey has, that Bailey would have been first in line to learn from a master how to improve his game.

At one point, I remember reading an article where a reporter asked Soto about the young pitchers. Soto mentioned Bailey by name and said that he "looked good." But when asked if he had spent any time teaching Bailey, Soto replied, "Not yet."

That whole incident just rubbed me the wrong way.

The Baumer
03-04-2008, 06:19 PM
Last spring Homer Bailey kicked my dog.

Highlifeman21
03-04-2008, 06:30 PM
You have to be kidding me.

6/26/07

Homer Bailey supposedly hurts himself in Philly. More specifically, his groin. You've championed that game, and that groin injury as the single reason Homer Bailey stunk up the joint in 2007.

But, I'm sure you remember this thread....

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64513&highlight=bailey

Within this thread, Steel makes a hell of a point, of which I was referring when I made my post in this current thread about his phantom injury.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1524811&postcount=68

Just in case you forget Bailey's 2007 Game-by-game stats, let's refer here...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=7944&year=2007

On said day of infamy, 6/26/07, Homer Bailey lasts a whopping 1 and 2/3, gives up 6 hits, 6 earned, 1 bomb, walks 3, strikesout 1.

After said day of infamy, Homer Bailey makes 2 more starts before correctly being demoted.

For a guy with a serious groin injury, he pitched pretty good, IMO, on 7/7/07, which by the way was his last start before getting temporarily shut down with that groin "injury". In fact, that game on 7/7/07 was his 2nd best start all year, behind a very good performance 6/19/07 @ Oakland.

Predictably, you never refuted Steel's claim in the "penny wise/dollar foolish" thread. Yet when I essentially reiterate Steel's point in this thread, you question me.

So what really was Bailey's injury in 2007? His groin? Or his pride and ego?

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 06:40 PM
I am sure that his 'ego' wasn't damaged enough that it left him on the DL for two months. He isn't a 12 year old girl who had her feelings hurt and transfers schools.

Highlifeman21
03-04-2008, 06:46 PM
I am sure that his 'ego' wasn't damaged enough that it left him on the DL for two months. He isn't a 12 year old girl who had her feelings hurt and transfers schools.

Or maybe he realized by his own admission that his mechanics weren't as good as advertised, and he needed to work on those in a controlled setting, rather than continue to get his brains beat in with the big club.

I root for Homer Bailey. I want him to be everything that you say he can or will be b/c that benefits my favorite baseball team. However, I just want the truth about this kid, and something tells me that his groin wasn't as injured as we were led to believe last year.

gm
03-04-2008, 06:58 PM
You want your great players to be spirited, if they use it for "competitive greatness."

This Bailey-hoo reminds me of a couple of Ball Four references

"That guy is really brazen, let's stick him in there and see how he does"

"You're only as smart as your ERA"

BTW, in regards to "never is heard a discouraging word" from Johnny B, how about Dusty's concerns re: Bruce's owie quad and JB's future running around in CF?

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 07:02 PM
Or maybe he realized by his own admission that his mechanics weren't as good as advertised, and he needed to work on those in a controlled setting, rather than continue to get his brains beat in with the big club.

I root for Homer Bailey. I want him to be everything that you say he can or will be b/c that benefits my favorite baseball team. However, I just want the truth about this kid, and something tells me that his groin wasn't as injured as we were led to believe last year.

Reworking ones mechanics doesn't require 8 weeks on the DL.

Highlifeman21
03-04-2008, 07:18 PM
Reworking ones mechanics doesn't require 8 weeks on the DL.

Then he must have caused immense damage to his groin in those 2 starts after he initially supposedly suffered the injury.

Gets hurt. Makes 2 more starts. Then we don't see him until rosters expand.

Something doesn't add up.

Care to explain?

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 07:21 PM
Then he must have caused immense damage to his groin in those 2 starts after he initially supposedly suffered the injury.

Gets hurt. Makes 2 more starts. Then we don't see him until rosters expand.

Something doesn't add up.

Care to explain?

He tried to pitch through it, but it didn't work as he was all arm at that point, had some struggles, went to the DL.

Fairly simple concept I would think.

New Fever
03-04-2008, 07:22 PM
Then he must have caused immense damage to his groin in those 2 starts after he initially supposedly suffered the injury.

Gets hurt. Makes 2 more starts. Then we don't see him until rosters expand.

Something doesn't add up.

Care to explain?

Why does this even matter? The Reds have said that he was hurt, someone obviously told Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus, and every other prospect publication that he was hurt. If he wasn't hurt there is no way to prove it and who are you trying to prove to anyways.

Highlifeman21
03-04-2008, 07:38 PM
He tried to pitch through it, but it didn't work as he was all arm at that point, had some struggles, went to the DL.

Fairly simple concept I would think.

That's a great concept, if you eliminate his last start before he went on the DL. Had he gotten knocked around by the Phightin' Phils, and then the Cards, and then the Snakes, then sure. I'd say he got injured in the City of Brotherly Hate, tried to pitch through it at home twice, struggled, and then took a rehab assignment.

Except it didn't happen that way.

He got his butt handed to him, got his butt handed to him, and then had his 2nd best start of the year. So either his start at home against Arizona was a fluke, or he wasn't hurt. Which was it? Fluke, or great performance while injured and about to go on the DL?

My vote goes for he wasn't hurt, and they used "groin injury" as an excuse to send him back down to A ball to rehab and work on his mechanics.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 07:42 PM
My vote goes for fluke and you trying to make a whole lot of something out of absolutely nothing because that whole lot of nothing backs up what you want to believe that Homer Bailey is nowhere near the pitcher that showed up for the 35.1 innings outside of the 10 he had while injured and is likely a lot closer to the pitcher you think he is while throwing injured.

IslandRed
03-04-2008, 08:24 PM
My vote goes for he wasn't hurt, and they used "groin injury" as an excuse to send him back down to A ball to rehab and work on his mechanics.

If he wasn't hurt, why did he need rehab?

The missing piece here, to me, is that he had been on the DL for a groin strain not long before he was called up to Cincinnati. It's not a big stretch for a recurrence to happen. It's also a bit simplistic to assume that the only choices are "he can't pitch" or "it's not affecting him at all." Some days with a groin strain are better than others. And the only way to get rid of it is a good long rest. Unfortunately, I used to be an expert on the subject.

So no, I find the recurring groin strain a far more believable explanation than the alternate ones, which involve faking injuries for no particular good reason.

That is not to say you're incorrect to challenge the notion that the injury can be used as a 100% discount for any and all struggles he had in the major leagues.

OnBaseMachine
03-04-2008, 08:25 PM
So now we have folks saying Bailey faked an injury. Wow. It really is personal with some folks. And that is sad.

GAC
03-04-2008, 08:30 PM
I wouldn't call that being a headcase, I'd call it immaturity. Why people expect a baseball player to be more mature in their approach to taking instruction than the general population, I have no idea. Homer seems to be acting his age, which is another reason that he should not be depended upon this season but continue to learn and mature mentally and physically.

You may be right tr; but immaturity still should not be used as reasoning to not listen to instructions. Especially if it's hurting or hindering your development.

My kids demonstrate immaturity. That doesn't mean I allow them to get away with not listening and following instructions though. If that is the case with Homer.

KoryMac5
03-04-2008, 08:34 PM
When you are asked to learn from bad teachers, you can easily be labeled unteachable.

To add to woy's list, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens are all free spirits.

Eric Davis was virtually uncoachable......just sayin'

I agree, it is really hard to listen to people that you don't have a lot of respect for. The Reds traditionaly haven't had much success with teaching anyone how to pitch properly. Maybe Pole might be the guy,

KoryMac5
03-04-2008, 08:39 PM
That's a great concept, if you eliminate his last start before he went on the DL. Had he gotten knocked around by the Phightin' Phils, and then the Cards, and then the Snakes, then sure. I'd say he got injured in the City of Brotherly Hate, tried to pitch through it at home twice, struggled, and then took a rehab assignment.

Except it didn't happen that way.

He got his butt handed to him, got his butt handed to him, and then had his 2nd best start of the year. So either his start at home against Arizona was a fluke, or he wasn't hurt. Which was it? Fluke, or great performance while injured and about to go on the DL?

My vote goes for he wasn't hurt, and they used "groin injury" as an excuse to send him back down to A ball to rehab and work on his mechanics.

Wow talk about your conspiracy theories, where is Oliver Stone when you need him.

CougarQuest
03-04-2008, 08:54 PM
I've never met Bailey personally. Couldn't tell you what he's like. But I've heard this about him last year, and it's starting in Spring Training already this year. This is the 3rd time TODAY that I've heard (in this case read) someone talking about it. And no one mentioned Hal's article in the other two. The first one I heard today is he won't talk to anyone in the locker room, team mates specifically.

I don't know if it's true or not. But he's definitely getting a reputation about it.

MWM
03-04-2008, 08:55 PM
Dude, Cougar. Nice to see you in these parts!!!!

CougarQuest
03-04-2008, 08:58 PM
Dude, Cougar. Nice to see you in these parts!!!!


Hey MWM...how are you?

M2
03-04-2008, 09:03 PM
IMO, there is a fairly large difference between Homer faking an injury and the Reds using a fairly standard tender groin as cover while they got control of a kid who was heading off the rails.

What we know about his groin injury is it never caused him a noticeable limp (and anyone who's ripped a groin will tell that it makes you hobble around something fierce). He also went home for unspecified reasons and was reported to be pitching regularly during his supposed recuperation period.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo were more injured last year than Homer Bailey ever was, they just knew how to handle it and we'll never know what was ailing them. My take is a lot of stuff got inside Bailey's head (tight groin, hitters not being so easily fooled at higher levels, crushing weight of unreasonable expectations). The Reds, rightly IMO, yanked him from the majors when it became clear he was going haywire and gave him two months to get his head back together. They also cherrypicked that Giants game for his return (lame lineup, pitcher's park). It was good management of a kid having trouble.

FWIW, I don't hold any of that against Bailey, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck either. There was a lot more than a groin injury going on and I think failing to recognize that will cause folks to repeat the unrealistic expectations that were heaped on the kid in 2007.

MWM
03-04-2008, 09:08 PM
Hey MWM...how are you?

Very cold. :D

MikeS21
03-04-2008, 09:15 PM
Cougar! Man, it's great to hear from you!

MWM
03-04-2008, 09:20 PM
Dude, Cougar AND MikeS21 both in the same night. What is this, 2001? Where's Richard Hand and Drew Nelson? :evil:

CougarQuest
03-04-2008, 10:00 PM
Cougar! Man, it's great to hear from you!

Hey Mike! Whats going on?

Highlifeman21
03-04-2008, 10:01 PM
IMO, there is a fairly large difference between Homer faking an injury and the Reds using a fairly standard tender groin as cover while they got control of a kid who was heading off the rails.

What we know about his groin injury is it never caused him a noticeable limp (and anyone who's ripped a groin will tell that it makes you hobble around something fierce). He also went home for unspecified reasons and was reported to be pitching regularly during his supposed recuperation period.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo were more injured last year than Homer Bailey ever was, they just knew how to handle it and we'll never know what was ailing them. My take is a lot of stuff got inside Bailey's head (tight groin, hitters not being so easily fooled at higher levels, crushing weight of unreasonable expectations). The Reds, rightly IMO, yanked him from the majors when it became clear he was going haywire and gave him two months to get his head back together. They also cherrypicked that Giants game for his return (lame lineup, pitcher's park). It was good management of a kid having trouble.

FWIW, I don't hold any of that against Bailey, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck either. There was a lot more than a groin injury going on and I think failing to recognize that will cause folks to repeat the unrealistic expectations that were heaped on the kid in 2007.

I hope my point wasn't taken as "he wasn't hurt", as much as I wanted to make the point of "there was more going on with how they handled Bailey than his groin".

You made my point much better than I attempted, M2.

I definitely don't think he was as hurt as advertised. He might have tweaked something in Philly, we'll never know for certain. But what we do know is that he made 2 starts after that, all the while making comments about his own mechanics needing work.

And then he disappears to A ball until September.

It's really easy to just say a player is injured, regardless of there actually being an injury, in order to create strategic options involving the player.

I just think it's incredibly short-sighted to say he was injured, and that was the root of all evils involving Bailey in 2007.

dougdirt
03-04-2008, 10:08 PM
I just think it's incredibly short-sighted to say he was injured, and that was the root of all evils involving Bailey in 2007.

I think its incredibly silly to suggest that Bailey wasn't hurt when he said he was hurt and simply because you feel otherwise to pretend as if it weren't the truth. Was the injury what hampered Bailey's 2007? No. It is what made it go from being solid average to 'jump off the bridge' reaction from some. The guy had an ERA below 3 and a WHIP below 1.20 while healthy between AAA and MLB and then an ERA over 10 and a WHIP over 2.20 when he was pitching injured.

remdog
03-04-2008, 10:25 PM
Hey! CQ! Nice to know you're around now and then. :)

Rem

RFS62
03-04-2008, 10:25 PM
I still can't believe the way we brought Homer up last season.

For the longest time, we said all the right things. "He needs to work on his secondary pitches"...."he needs to refine his command".... and I was pretty happy with the measured way we handled him.

Then, out of the blue, we're hell-bent to bring him up. Billboards announcing his arrival spring up all over town. The mighty juggernaught of Reds marketing announces his arrival. I wouldn't have been surprised if they had flown him in off the roof of the GAB in a helicopter, a la Steve Nebraska.

I always thought that had Castellini's fingerprints all over it. Krivsky had been so consistent in his explanation of why Bailey was still in AAA. Then, all of a sudden, he's ready. And we mount a full fledged marketing effort (as much as the Reds are capable of) to herald his arrival.

I never liked the way we used Homer last year. I didn't think he was ready when we brought him up.

remdog
03-04-2008, 10:31 PM
I still can't believe the way we brought Homer up last season.

I didn't think he was ready when we brought him up.

There were a lot of people that felt that way and/or felt that there was no point in starting his 'clock' with a team the was obviously going nowhere.

I agree, Wayne was playing the situation exactly right and then, bingo, bango bongo, Homer's in the bigs. :eek:

You may be correct in that Castellini had something to do with it. Doesn't his kid run the marketing department. Maybe Cast Jr. needed something to do. :p:

Rem

VR
03-04-2008, 10:33 PM
I've never met Bailey personally. Couldn't tell you what he's like. But I've heard this about him last year, and it's starting in Spring Training already this year. This is the 3rd time TODAY that I've heard (in this case read) someone talking about it. And no one mentioned Hal's article in the other two. The first one I heard today is he won't talk to anyone in the locker room, team mates specifically.

I don't know if it's true or not. But he's definitely getting a reputation about it.


CQ, good to see you're back! Have you been faking an injury or being a head case? ;)

Highlifeman21
03-04-2008, 10:48 PM
I think its incredibly silly to suggest that Bailey wasn't hurt when he said he was hurt and simply because you feel otherwise to pretend as if it weren't the truth. Was the injury what hampered Bailey's 2007? No. It is what made it go from being solid average to 'jump off the bridge' reaction from some. The guy had an ERA below 3 and a WHIP below 1.20 while healthy between AAA and MLB and then an ERA over 10 and a WHIP over 2.20 when he was pitching injured.

I'm not sure that I ever said with absolute certainty that Bailey wasn't hurt. I'm just saying that his groin injury gave the Reds an exit strategy after they realized he wasn't ready for the show.

And how do we know who is the "when healthy" Bailey? The "when healthy" Bailey to me looks like a guy that pitched against Arizona, but clearly he was sent down after that start, so was he healthy for that start? Was he only healthy for the starts in September?

Was he healthy for his first 1 stars after the call up?

We can't say with any absolute certainty when Bailey was healthy in 2007, and when he was not, so to continue to cherry-pick his "when healthy" stats is definitely a march of folly.

SteelSD
03-04-2008, 11:10 PM
IMO, there is a fairly large difference between Homer faking an injury and the Reds using a fairly standard tender groin as cover while they got control of a kid who was heading off the rails.

What we know about his groin injury is it never caused him a noticeable limp (and anyone who's ripped a groin will tell that it makes you hobble around something fierce). He also went home for unspecified reasons and was reported to be pitching regularly during his supposed recuperation period.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo were more injured last year than Homer Bailey ever was, they just knew how to handle it and we'll never know what was ailing them. My take is a lot of stuff got inside Bailey's head (tight groin, hitters not being so easily fooled at higher levels, crushing weight of unreasonable expectations). The Reds, rightly IMO, yanked him from the majors when it became clear he was going haywire and gave him two months to get his head back together. They also cherrypicked that Giants game for his return (lame lineup, pitcher's park). It was good management of a kid having trouble.

FWIW, I don't hold any of that against Bailey, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck either. There was a lot more than a groin injury going on and I think failing to recognize that will cause folks to repeat the unrealistic expectations that were heaped on the kid in 2007.

Well said, and that's a far more plausible explanation than the most severe unnoticeable symptomless mild groin injury to ever occur in organized sports.

Seriously, that alleged groin tweak is the strangest injury I've ever heard of. Not only did the kid take the mound multiple times at both the MLB and MiLB levels for about a month after said "injury", he actually thought his mechanics were the issue rather than the area near his unmentionables prior to his demotion.

Then after being sent down, allegedly to keep him working on his normal schedule (which, at this point, smells like more of a "mercy" demotion than anything else), Krivsky shows his hand in a way rarely seen by saying this on July 16th, 2007:

"There is no timetable for Homer," Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky said. "Go pitch and get people out. The better you pitch, the better chance you have to get back."

Knowing what we knew last July 16th, that comment seemed harsh considering that it was Krivsky himself who threw Bailey to the wolves. But as more information comes in, the picture comes a bit more into focus.

As far as attitude goes, we're in the same camp. I want confidence and even a little bit of arrogance in a young talented player. I think that's healthy, especially considering how fast this game moves at the highest levels. As a pitcher, if you don't honestly feel that you're better than the guy standing at the plate, then you might want to re-think your line of work. And I'm more than a bit rogue myself, so I tend to like a bit of edge. That being said, a player needs to "walk the talk" and Bailey quite obviously didn't last season. I don't think that makes him uncoachable and I actually respect Baker's opinion that sometimes you really need to fail to figure it out.

Hopefully Bailey can learn from his failures, and a big part of that is to put aside excuses that reach outward and focus internally to determine what he needs to do in order to get better. Some players get it and some don't. At this point, it'll be nothing but a boon to Bailey if he understands that 2007 is something he actually did rather than something that just happened to him.

SteelSD
03-04-2008, 11:22 PM
I'm not sure that I ever said with absolute certainty that Bailey wasn't hurt. I'm just saying that his groin injury gave the Reds an exit strategy after they realized he wasn't ready for the show.

Remember, the Reds didn't put Bailey on the MLB DL. The "exit strategy" they used was the All-Star break.

And I agree with RFS as well. The handling of Bailey last year, regardless of the cause (which may well have been Castellini) was absolutely awful. The Reds set the kid up to fail, and fail he did.

RANDY IN INDY
03-05-2008, 07:03 AM
I had a fairly bad groin pull when I was a senior in high school. It caused me no noticeable limp when I was walking normally. It did, however, grab me unmercifully when I would try to do certain things. Walking wasn't one of them.

Ltlabner
03-05-2008, 07:17 AM
So what do you guys think about this Drew Stubbs kid?

MikeS21
03-05-2008, 07:19 AM
I still can't believe the way we brought Homer up last season.

For the longest time, we said all the right things. "He needs to work on his secondary pitches"...."he needs to refine his command".... and I was pretty happy with the measured way we handled him.

Then, out of the blue, we're hell-bent to bring him up. Billboards announcing his arrival spring up all over town. The mighty juggernaught of Reds marketing announces his arrival. I wouldn't have been surprised if they had flown him in off the roof of the GAB in a helicopter, a la Steve Nebraska.

I always thought that had Castellini's fingerprints all over it. Krivsky had been so consistent in his explanation of why Bailey was still in AAA. Then, all of a sudden, he's ready. And we mount a full fledged marketing effort (as much as the Reds are capable of) to herald his arrival.

I never liked the way we used Homer last year. I didn't think he was ready when we brought him up.
The Reds pulled the same exact stunt when Brett Tomko was in the minors.

I'll never forget the big Sunday write up in the Cincinnati Enquirer, where Tomko was heralded as the next best thing to Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Cy Young - all rolled into one. The Reds were struggling that year(as usual), and pitching was the culprit(as usual). JimBo was quoted as saying, in so many words, "No matter what happens, we're not going to rush Tomko to the big leagues. It's NOT going to happen."

Two weeks later, Tomko was called up. The rest is history.

I just hope they haven't done the same to Homer Bailey.

jojo
03-05-2008, 07:59 AM
I had a fairly bad groin pull when I was a senior in high school. It caused me no noticeable limp when I was walking normally. It did, however, grab me unmercifully when I would try to do certain things. Walking wasn't one of them.

Absolutely. And I could see where such an injury could cause issues with mechanics.

M2
03-05-2008, 10:25 AM
I had a fairly bad groin pull when I was a senior in high school. It caused me no noticeable limp when I was walking normally. It did, however, grab me unmercifully when I would try to do certain things. Walking wasn't one of them.

Like putting on your pants? Trying to tie your shoes? Having to step around somebody or something? Stepping up or stepping down?

Is there any way on God's green earth that it wouldn't have grabbed you unmercifully on a consistent basis in a locker room setting? How would it have felt taking a long stride off a mound?

We're talking about a supposedly severe groin injury with Bailey here, something that sidelined him for two months, not a tender/bothersome groin. I submit there's zero chance the Reds let him pitch with the former and that any trainer with a working pair of eyes could have spotted it instantly.

RANDY IN INDY
03-05-2008, 11:41 AM
It was pretty much not any of those things. It was practicing basketball every day for the majority of the season with a groin problem. Back in 1979, we had no trainers and had a coach who was really old school. You pretty much sucked it up if you wanted to play, which I did. I had a study hall, 7th period, and was allowed to go to the locker room to sit in the whirlpool for 20 minutes to try and be able to practice. Lots of Tylenol. It hurt really bad, particularly trying to get into a defensive position to shuffle back and forth. When the "old man" wasn't looking, I would take it easy during drills. It is amazing what you can do when you really want to play, and you know that you are going to lose your spot if you don't. Late in the season, I had a very bad high ankle sprain that would not allow me to play for the last few weeks of the season. That was probably a blessing in disguise because it allowed the groin to heal, somewhat, and allowed me to have a baseball season.

I know what it felt like, in a locker room setting and it wasn't pleasant, yet, like a 17 year old idiot, I played through it. Matter of fact, I was black and blue in that area for the majority of the season. There were nights that I couldn't sleep because it hurt so bad, but having lost my mother in December to cancer, I was not going to lose the only diversion to real life that was keeping me sane. The human body and mind are amazing things.

dougdirt
03-05-2008, 11:46 AM
C Trent was just on with the radio with Mo Egger and basically said that he talked to Bailey after the whole incident and it sounds like he just doesn't get along with a specific media member because he always asks really stupid questions and that is what spawned the whole thing.

Always Red
03-05-2008, 12:11 PM
C Trent was just on with the radio with Mo Egger and basically said that he talked to Bailey after the whole incident and it sounds like he just doesn't get along with a specific media member because he always asks really stupid questions and that is what spawned the whole thing.

...and so that media member threw Bailey under the bus on his blog.

nice.

Maybe I need to be more careful who I read, eh?

M2
03-05-2008, 12:27 PM
It was pretty much not any of those things. It was practicing basketball every day for the majority of the season with a groin problem. Back in 1979, we had no trainers and had a coach who was really old school. You pretty much sucked it up if you wanted to play, which I did. I had a study hall, 7th period, and was allowed to go to the locker room to sit in the whirlpool for 20 minutes to try and be able to practice. Lots of Tylenol. It hurt really bad, particularly trying to get into a defensive position to shuffle back and forth. When the "old man" wasn't looking, I would take it easy during drills. It is amazing what you can do when you really want to play, and you know that you are going to lose your spot if you don't. Late in the season, I had a very bad high ankle sprain that would not allow me to play for the last few weeks of the season. That was probably a blessing in disguise because it allowed the groin to heal, somewhat, and allowed me to have a baseball season.

I know what it felt like, in a locker room setting and it wasn't pleasant, yet, like a 17 year old idiot, I played through it. Matter of fact, I was black and blue in that area for the majority of the season. There were nights that I couldn't sleep because it hurt so bad, but having lost my mother in December to cancer, I was not going to lose the only diversion to real life that was keeping me sane. The human body and mind are amazing things.

I appreciate that you played through the pain. I ran through a torn quad my senior year, but you'd have had to have been blind not to notice I had a torn quad. In my case, it involved buckets of Cramergesic, leg wraps and loads of extra stretching.

Anyway, let's pretend that someone had investined millions of dollars in us. The things you're describing were no doubt obvious to your coach, who surely knew you were in the hot tub, popping Tylenol like Chicklets and having trouble getting back on defense. Like you said, it hurt you a lot in the locker room. I've torn a groin and putting on your pants is no picnic when it happens. When someone's plunked down a fat load of money for your future production, they pay attention to those things rather than look the other way. Just a guess, but I'm sure your coach also knew your entire home/health situation and determined that as long as you could drag yourself out there, he was going to let you. Sounds like he was probably a good guy.

That you can try to suck it up doesn't enter the equation in the pros. They'll shut you down and make you heal once you've got an injury that's preventing you from performing. If Homer Bailey couldn't execute his pitches because of bad groin they wouldn't have sent him to the mound. Organizations watch these kids like hawks. If Homer Bailey was doing anything like what you described in your situation he'd have been DLed so fast it would have made his head spin. For instance, do you get that high ankle sprain if you're not favoring your groin? Maybe you do, but an injury like that forces you to do things a bit differently and that can lead to a more severe injury.

Also note that you only took a few weeks to heal up from you injury, not two months. I don't doubt that Bailey had a tender groin, but the severity of it has gone way past exaggeration.

Will M
03-05-2008, 01:37 PM
From MLB trade rumors today:

Buster Olney notes that "talent evaluators say the Reds have demonstrated a clear willingness to deal Homer Bailey."

RANDY IN INDY
03-05-2008, 01:39 PM
You are right, in that teams, these days, protect and seem to know everything about their high draft choices. Most of those kids will scream at a hang nail, but there could be times that a guy is not telling the trainer everything. Recently read heard an interview where a young Bruce Sutter wore sleeves all season to hide a scar from an off-season surgery that he did not let the team know about. These days, I would wager to say, that is not the norm.

The ankle sprain was probably a result of favoring the groin. And, by the way, I still have to be careful with that side of my groin. Probably lingering effects of an injury that was way worse than a stupid 17 year old actually knew.

membengal
03-05-2008, 01:40 PM
C Trent was just on with the radio with Mo Egger and basically said that he talked to Bailey after the whole incident and it sounds like he just doesn't get along with a specific media member because he always asks really stupid questions and that is what spawned the whole thing.

Assuming that is Fay, um, I feel his pain.

Team Clark
03-05-2008, 01:49 PM
Assuming that is Fay, um, I feel his pain.

WOW, I guessed that one pretty good! :D

BRM
03-05-2008, 02:58 PM
Interesting tidbit on C. Trent's blog.



Homer was a sheer delight. I think someone talked to him about his last appearance in front of the media.

Will have more from him later

lollipopcurve
03-05-2008, 03:02 PM
Homer was a sheer delight. I think someone talked to him about his last appearance in front of the media.

I wonder if the banker was as charmed. The banker, remember, doesn't have all day.

Always Red
03-05-2008, 03:07 PM
I wonder if the banker was as charmed. The banker, remember, doesn't have all day.

well, the bank president IS a VERY busy man....;)

Chip R
03-05-2008, 03:09 PM
I wonder if the banker was as charmed. The banker, remember, doesn't have all day.


That's right. He leaves work at 3. Chop chop, Homer.

BRM
03-05-2008, 03:11 PM
Homer on today's performance. I love the "stubborn ass" part.

Courtesy of C. Trent:



Early on, the first time through the lineup, the first inning and a half, getting ahead of hitters with fastballs. And they started seeing I was throwing a fastball for strike so they hit it, then I got guys on base and started throwing curveballs on first pitch and only threw one or two for balls. The one Manny hit, he flew out to left field, was a changeup he was out in front of. The one Drew smoked to Votto (for an out) was a changeup he was out in front of. One of the strikeouts was on a changeup. That's another positive you can take out of it.

If you want to go to the negative side, I had bases loaded one out, get a strikeout, and the next pitch, me being the stubborn ass I am, I shake off Bako for a curveball that he hits up the middle to score two. I guess I was wrong on that one. Bako called for a fastball, it was a good pitch, but (Red Sox catcher Kevin Cash) is a good hitter and he hit it up the middle.

Team Clark
03-05-2008, 03:15 PM
Maybe it would be better if Trent was the only one who covered Reds baseball from here on out...

dougdirt
03-05-2008, 03:38 PM
Maybe it would be better if Trent was the only one who covered Reds baseball from here on out...

I could go for that one

lollipopcurve
03-05-2008, 04:01 PM
That's right. He leaves work at 3. Chop chop, Homer.

It appears that the bank president has given himself the day off, presumably to rejuvenate in the sunny climes far from the odious yoke of the ballyards and locker rooms -- especially the locker room haunted by "young Homer."

vaticanplum
03-05-2008, 05:37 PM
...and so that media member threw Bailey under the bus on his blog.

nice.

Maybe I need to be more careful who I read, eh?

I'm calling shenanigans on the whole Bailey being a headcase/cocky thing. A year ago he was portrayed as uncommonly easygoing, confident, and willing to listen to instruction. Now all of a sudden he's difficult and mental. Unless the kid is bipolar, I'm guessing the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

And all of that has nothing to do with an injury/coverup/him being brought up too early blah blah blah. His personality should not be of that much concern to the press yet, if ever. They'd do better to do some actual investigative reporting regarding what the problem is here than to chalk it all up to a personality problem and leave it at that.

Highlifeman21
03-05-2008, 05:41 PM
Remember, the Reds didn't put Bailey on the MLB DL. The "exit strategy" they used was the All-Star break.

And I agree with RFS as well. The handling of Bailey last year, regardless of the cause (which may well have been Castellini) was absolutely awful. The Reds set the kid up to fail, and fail he did.

I looked a little last night, and some more today, and you're absolutely correct that the Reds didn't put Bailey on the MLB DL. I've found no record of such transaction.

He was simply demoted at the ASB.

Given that he supposedly had a severe groin injury, you would have thought the Reds would have put him on the DL. I'm sure something was wrong with his groin, since he's still a young kid and his body is far from physically mature, but I doubt the severity of the injury.

I'm hoping his head is on straight, and his groin is healed for 2008. It's going to be a stepping stone year for Bailey's development. I eagerly wait positive results, but the realist in me knows he still needs some time in AAA.

jojo
03-05-2008, 08:39 PM
Here's the timeline for Homer's '07 relating to his injury:

Homer reportedly injured his groin on June 26th in Philadelphia.

He made two more starts with the Reds while nursing the injury before being optioned to Louisville on July 8th.

He started the 12th and the 17th for the bats before going on the disabled list with due to his groin on July 19th.

He began throwing again on July 27th and went to Sarasota August 13th to prepare for his rehab starts.

He started Aug 25th and 30th with the Sarasota Reds but couldn't pitch in the FSL playoffs because of his major league service time. He was called up to Cincy and then made three starts (9/20, 9/25, and 9/30).

Basically he injured his groin, made four starts after the injury and then didn't pitch in a game for a month while recuperating. During that "month", he only spent 8-10 days without any baseball activity (July 17th or 19th thru the 27th). That's not really all that excessive for recovering from a groin pull. I don't think anyone in the Reds organization characterized Homer's injury as a severe groin issue. Given Homer shouldn't have even been called up last season, I think it's very reasonable that the Reds didn't make Homer pitch through a groin injury while at the major league level-no matter how trivial the groin issue might have been.

I really don't see the conspiracy.

jojo
03-05-2008, 08:55 PM
I guess I don't see why this has to be framed in a way that questions Homer's makeup/character. Rather, wasn't '07 a case of the Reds recognizing their goof and slamming on the brakes hard to avoid a potentially disastrous wreck?

Highlifeman21
03-05-2008, 09:11 PM
I guess I don't see why this has to be framed in a way that questions Homer's makeup/character. Rather, wasn't '07 a case of the Reds recognizing their goof and slamming on the brakes hard to avoid a potentially disastrous wreck?

I think the Reds slammed on the brakes hard and called it a groin injury. There probably was an injury, but not to the extent of which it was reported.

I'm hoping the Reds actually avoided the potentially disasterous wreck. 2008 will be the lithmus test for that.

remdog
03-05-2008, 10:33 PM
Maybe Homer just prefers the satorial splendor that is C. Trent. :p:

Rem

Chip R
03-05-2008, 10:38 PM
I think the Reds slammed on the brakes hard and called it a groin injury. There probably was an injury, but not to the extent of which it was reported.


I think that's probably pretty close to being right. I still think Bob was behind Homer being brought up. Wayne was always taking it slow with him and then all of a sudden he gets called up. Could be Wayne used the groin injury as a cover for putting him on the shelf.

Highlifeman21
03-05-2008, 10:46 PM
I think that's probably pretty close to being right. I still think Bob was behind Homer being brought up. Wayne was always taking it slow with him and then all of a sudden he gets called up. Could be Wayne used the groin injury as a cover for putting him on the shelf.

Groin injury is a much easier out than "oops, we f'd up."

And I apologize for the profanity reference, but how the Reds handled Bailey in 2007 was nothing but a F-up.

Chip R
03-05-2008, 10:48 PM
Groin injury is a much easier out than "oops, we f'd up."



It's also a little easier than telling the owner that he made a mistake.

KoryMac5
03-05-2008, 10:49 PM
Maybe Homer just prefers the satorial splendor that is C. Trent. :p:

Rem

Rem, I think you hit the nail right on the head. From the times that I have heard C Trent on the radio and from all the blog submissions I have read he seems to get along well with the players. C Trent being a bit of a wise guy might get more out of Bailey than Fay's straight forward approach.

OnBaseMachine
03-05-2008, 11:06 PM
I'm glad the Reds didn't trade for Bedard because Cincy fans hate a guy who doesn't like talking to certain members of the media:;)

BEDARD Q&A … SORT OF (5:08 p.m. ET)
Erik Bedard arrived in Seattle from Baltimore with a reputation as a taciturn guy who treats media interviews like root canal. He's living up to expectations.

After pitching three innings in a Cactus League game against the Angels on Wednesday, Bedard told Seattle beat reporters that he would be available to answer only four questions. When one writer asked, "Why only four?'' Bedard replied, "That's one.''

Bedard gave the press corps a break and stuck around for four more, but the entire interview lasted a grand total of one minute and 18 seconds -- at which point Bedard cut the session short and walked away from his locker.

On a positive note, Bedard recovered from a rocky first outing and allowed only two hits in three innings against the Angels. By all indications, he plans to let his left arm do the talking this season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3277598&name=spring_training

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 10:00 AM
Bedard gave the press corps a break and stuck around for four more, but the entire interview lasted a grand total of one minute and 18 seconds -- at which point Bedard cut the session short and walked away from his locker.

I have no patience for reporters trying to hold this stuff against players. Some guys like to keep the media at arm's length, and I have no problem with that. Reporters can't expect every guy to be a quote machine. There's plenty to write that would be more interesting than the usual transcription of cliches players have been trained to deliver to the media, anyway.

Now, if a player is insulting, that's another matter.

jojo
03-06-2008, 10:07 AM
I have no patience for reporters trying to hold this stuff against players. Some guys like to keep the media at arm's length, and I have no problem with that. Reporters can't expect every guy to be a quote machine. There's plenty to write that would be more interesting than the usual transcription of cliches players have been trained to deliver to the media, anyway.

Now, if a player is insulting, that's another matter.

The easy story is to write about the latest snarky thing that Bedard said after being poked with a stick. Just wait until the Ms pursue an extension. Basically, some of the local media in Seattle are simply laying the foundation for a working vacation.

My favorite writers are the ones that dig the deepest or in Trent's case, can provide real insight into game events by leveraging the relationships he's built with players.

M2
03-06-2008, 11:36 AM
While I'm all for calling the press out for being whiny, Bedard is a major acquisition and he'd better expect to get some attention as a result of that. Forget about the press, fans are excited about this guy.

jojo
03-06-2008, 11:42 AM
While I'm all for calling the press out for being whiny, Bedard is a major acquisition and he'd better expect to get some attention as a result of that. Forget about the press, fans are excited about this guy.

I wasn't excusing Bedard's unwillingness to be an ambassador for his team and game but rather was suggesting that at this point, it really isn't a story....

lollipopcurve
03-06-2008, 12:00 PM
I wasn't excusing Bedard's unwillingness to be an ambassador for his team and game but rather was suggesting that at this point, it really isn't a story....

The onus shifts more to Bedard if he chooses to sign an extension. Still, people are people, and some aren't talkers.

gm
03-06-2008, 07:22 PM
I think that's probably pretty close to being right. I still think Bob was behind Homer being brought up. Wayne was always taking it slow with him and then all of a sudden he gets called up. Could be Wayne used the groin injury as a cover for putting him on the shelf.

IIRC, last April/May Narron was hearing reports re: how well Bailey was pitching and clamored for the young starter. Meanwhile, Krivsky was trying to exercise restraint (arb clock?) After the team's poor May record Jerry probably felt his job was on the line and pushed harder for Homer's callup.

Truth, or fiction?

Chip R
03-06-2008, 07:29 PM
IIRC, last April/May Narron was hearing reports re: how well Bailey was pitching and clamored for the young starter. Meanwhile, Krivsky was trying to exercise restraint (arb clock?) After the team's poor May record Jerry probably felt his job was on the line and pushed harder for Homer's callup.

Truth, or fiction?

Could be true. But I'm not sure if Narron had the kind of influence over Wayne to convince him to all of a sudden change his mind about Homer. After all, Wayne did fire him about a month later. Dusty, I could see having that type of juice but not Narron.

Topcat
03-07-2008, 05:53 AM
I have no problem with Homer being a head case as long as he doesn't turn into a Brett Tomko.

I have heard conflicting stories about Homer's behavior and I am not going to cast him in any light. I simply haven't seen or heard enough. I doubt any one person on this board has.

One POSITIVE story about Homer is when he went to work in Sarasota last year to recover from his groin issues. Tom Brown, the former Marlins Pitching Coordinator, stayed with him the entire time. Homer worked with him DAILY on mechanics, approach to hitters, grips, his breaking ball you name it. When Homer came back to the Reds his delivery was noticeably improved and like magic his breaking balls were getting over for strikes. Obviously the kid listens well enough at times to grasp what he is being taught.

My contention for the last 4-5 years is that there have been numerous coaches in the organization that couldn't help a high school team much less a Homer Bailey. As I have noticed this season looking at the coaches in camp that situation has improved somewhat. Players know who is full of it and who they "WANT" to listen too. Something tells me Homer may not be as dumb as some people think.

Bang on TC most of these so called coaches may not have Homers respect because he knows difference in a crap coach and a good one.:thumbup:. Last I checked Homers done quite well with the old filter meter in regards to success so far.

red-in-la
03-07-2008, 06:24 AM
I have no patience for reporters trying to hold this stuff against players. Some guys like to keep the media at arm's length, and I have no problem with that. Reporters can't expect every guy to be a quote machine. There's plenty to write that would be more interesting than the usual transcription of cliches players have been trained to deliver to the media, anyway.

Now, if a player is insulting, that's another matter.

I agree. I am a fan and I pay the bills. I really have no patience when media-types act as if how the players deal with them is as important as his OPS or his ERA.

So a player such as Bedard has a negative note because he doesn't want to answer endless, often sensless questions from media members? Ouch!

membengal
03-07-2008, 07:39 AM
To be clear, Homer Bailey once shot a man just to watch him die.

Homer's so "terse" that even Chuck Norris quakes in fear.

jojo
03-07-2008, 08:12 AM
So a player such as Bedard has a negative note because he doesn't want to answer endless, often sensless questions from media members? Ouch!

Truthfully, I think most of the problems with Bedard and the media stem from the language barrier and probably could have been solved if the Os would've hired a Canadian interpreter. :cool: