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View Full Version : Rule 5 draftee returned to Braves



Mainspark
03-10-2008, 04:33 PM
CINCINNATI REDS—Sold Rule 5 draftee RHP Sergio Valenzuela back to Atlanta. Optioned RHP Ramon Ramirez to Louisville (IL).

cumberlandreds
03-10-2008, 04:34 PM
Not a surprise. I suppose it was worth the gamble.

flyer85
03-10-2008, 04:34 PM
I'm shocked. He was soooo gooood.

lollipopcurve
03-10-2008, 04:38 PM
I'm always glad to see them take a shot.

Unassisted
03-10-2008, 04:40 PM
So the Reds paid the Braves $50,000 at the time of the Rule 5 draft and sold Valenzuela back to the Braves for $25,000.

Another way to look at this $25,000 loss is that the Reds could make 78 more rolls of the dice like this on Rule 5 Picks and still not have spent as much as they just spent for 16 year-old Juan Duran.

TRF
03-10-2008, 04:41 PM
So the Reds paid the Braves $50,000 at the time of the Rule 5 draft and sold Valenzuela back to the Braves for $25,000.

Another way to look at this $25,000 loss is that the Reds could make 78 more rolls of the dice like this on Rule 5 Picks and still not have spent as much as they just spent for 16 year-old Juan Duran.

OR..

They could have kept Carlos Guervara and the $50K.

MartyFan
03-10-2008, 04:42 PM
He was worth a shot...now he will be the second coming of Nolan ryan and go on to play in the MLB for 40 years with a career era of 2.13.

;)

flyer85
03-10-2008, 04:42 PM
so would this be a defeat for scouting over objective analysis?

flyer85
03-10-2008, 04:43 PM
He was worth a shotnot by any objective measure. It would not be possible to be any worse without getting released.

NC Reds
03-10-2008, 05:13 PM
I second the thought that Carlos Guevara was worth protecting. I guarantee is he better than some of the arms we will trot out this year.

remdog
03-10-2008, 05:32 PM
Not a big deal, IMO. The thing I do like about it is that the Reds made a decision relatively early and moved on.

Rem

redsmetz
03-10-2008, 05:45 PM
I picked this up on the Padres mailbag dated today on their website:


How much of a chance do you give pitcher Carlos Guevara of making the Opening Day roster, especially with the injury he recently suffered? I know he was something of a hot commodity in the Rule 5 Draft and I love the idea of having a screwballer on the team. What do you think?
-- Ryan P., San Diego

Guevara was an early casualty in camp, sidelined by a nagging hamstring strain that he suffered in the first few days of drills. He was only recently cleared to pitch in games, and threw a scoreless inning in his Cactus League debut last week. He'll likely get more chances to show the staff what he's capable of as we move forward into spring. He isn't on the trip to China, so he should get regular relief work (every other day). I like the idea of the screwball, as well. And since he's a Rule 5 guy, Guevara has to stick on the roster all year or be offered back to the Reds for $25,000. That doesn't mean the team will carry him all year just for the sake of not losing him. Guevara has to pitch well enough, like everyone else, to earn a spot.

My guess is that initially Guevara starts the season on the DL, buying the Padres some time.

BuckeyeRedleg
03-10-2008, 05:46 PM
OR..

They could have kept Carlos Guervara and the $50K.

I agree.

flyer85
03-10-2008, 05:48 PM
My guess is that initially Guevara starts the season on the DL, buying the Padres some time.funny that a team that generally has had one of the better pens in baseball can try and find room for a draftee from the Reds who over the last few years have had one of the worst pens in baseball.

cincyinco
03-10-2008, 05:50 PM
And Guervara might just as easily end up back on the Reds...

Not gonna worry about it.

Mainspark
03-10-2008, 06:14 PM
Valenzuela gets moved for the second time today....


ATLANTA BRAVES—Traded RHP Sergio Valenzuela to Monclova (Mexican) for future considerations.

lollipopcurve
03-10-2008, 06:15 PM
My guess is that initially Guevara starts the season on the DL, buying the Padres some time.

If the Pads are going to contend, he's going to have to perform -- or, dagnabit, keep tweaking that hamstring.

RedsManRick
03-10-2008, 06:18 PM
Big surprise. I know Rule V picks are a shot in the dark, but I don't think I've ever seen one darker.

princeton
03-10-2008, 06:23 PM
Valenzuela gets moved for the second time today....


ATLANTA BRAVES—Traded RHP Sergio Valenzuela to Monclova (Mexican) for future considerations.


future considerations were worth more than $25K?

or just wanted to stick it to the Reds?

regardless, I'm guessing that the Reds were the day's big winners.

*BaseClogger*
03-10-2008, 06:45 PM
funny that a team that generally has had one of the better pens in baseball can try and find room for a draftee from the Reds who over the last few years have had one of the worst pens in baseball.

IMO the Padres are the epitome of how to build a bullpen. The Reds... not so much...

Matt700wlw
03-10-2008, 06:54 PM
Hamilton he wasn't.

cincrazy
03-10-2008, 06:58 PM
IMO the Padres are the epitome of how to build a bullpen. The Reds... not so much...

Well, judging by very recent history. But for a number of years, the Reds had one of the better bullpens in the NL, so they haven't been inept for all that long at the business.

redsmetz
03-10-2008, 08:21 PM
future considerations were worth more than $25K?

or just wanted to stick it to the Reds?

regardless, I'm guessing that the Reds were the day's big winners.

We couldn't have made the trade to a non-ML club without first offering him back to the Braves, and if they didn't want him, he'd have to have cleared waivers before we could have done anything like this.

*BaseClogger*
03-10-2008, 09:38 PM
Well, judging by very recent history. But for a number of years, the Reds had one of the better bullpens in the NL, so they haven't been inept for all that long at the business.

They may have had some good bullpens, but their recent attempts at building 'pens through free agency is not the way to do it IMO...

cincrazy
03-10-2008, 10:04 PM
They may have had some good bullpens, but their recent attempts at building 'pens through free agency is not the way to do it IMO...

Completely agree with that. They need to get back to developing the likes of Sullivan, Williamson, and Graves (although Graves came up with the Tribe organization, he flourished under us early on).

Danny Serafini
03-10-2008, 10:08 PM
Not keeping Guevara is irrelevant to picking Valenzuela. One move did not preclude the other. That said, picking Valenzuela was a waste of money the second that pick was made.

Unassisted
03-10-2008, 10:13 PM
Not keeping Guevara is irrelevant to picking Valenzuela. One move did not preclude the other.
That's what I was thinking. The opportunity cost of protecting Guevara in the Rule 5 Draft might have been the loss of a more desirable player.

Sea Ray
03-11-2008, 12:23 AM
My guess is that initially Guevara starts the season on the DL, buying the Padres some time.


Don't forget that there's now a "Bowden" rule that keeps teams from stashing Rule 5 guys on the DL:


To prevent the abuse of the Rule 5 draft, the rule also states that the draftee must be active for at least 90 days. This keeps teams from drafting players, then placing them on the disabled list for the majority of the season. For example, if a Rule 5 draftee was only active for 67 days in his first season with his new club, he must be active for an additional 23 games in his second season to satisfy the Rule 5 requirements.

Any player chosen in the Rule 5 draft may be traded to any team while under the Rule 5 restrictions, but the restrictions transfer to the new team. If the new team does not want to keep the player on its 25-man roster for the season, he must be offered back to the team of which he was a member when chosen in the draft.


Yeah, the Pads can start him off on the DL but they can't stash him there all year. It's still entirely possible we'll get this guy back and it won't even cost us a spot on the 40 man

Screwball
03-11-2008, 01:02 AM
For example, if a Rule 5 draftee was only active for 67 days in his first season with his new club, he must be active for an additional 23 games in his second season to satisfy the Rule 5 requirements.


So, essentially, a player has two full seasons to play 90 games on the MLB club?

princeton
03-11-2008, 01:36 AM
We couldn't have made the trade to a non-ML club without first offering him back to the Braves, and if they didn't want him, he'd have to have cleared waivers before we could have done anything like this.


dude-- the Braves paid $25K for him, then sent him to Monclova
.

Ron Madden
03-11-2008, 04:27 AM
Seems to me that almost every move Wayne makes to improve the bullpen blows up in his face.

Eighther someone is feeding him bad information, or his evaluation of Relief Pitchers really sucks.

:confused:

redsmetz
03-11-2008, 06:30 AM
dude-- the Braves paid $25K for him, then sent him to Monclova
.

Yes, the Braves could do it. We couldn't do it because we first had to offer him back to the Braves. And then if they didn't want him, we had to have him clear waivers (which he may well have done), but we couldn't offer him to a Mexican team without first offering him back to the Braves.

redsmetz
03-11-2008, 06:32 AM
Seems to me that almost every move Wayne makes to improve the bullpen blows up in his face.

Eighther someone is feeding him bad information, or his evaluation of Relief Pitchers really sucks.

:confused:

I don't think the pick of Valenzuela was a move to improve the bullpen. If he would have stuck with the club this year, it would have been out of the bullpen, but the reasoning that I heard about in the press at the time was with the hopes that he would develop into a decent starter down the line. Clearly there was no room this year for an extra guy on the roster, hence selling him back to Atlanta.

TRF
03-11-2008, 11:15 AM
Not keeping Guevara is irrelevant to picking Valenzuela. One move did not preclude the other. That said, picking Valenzuela was a waste of money the second that pick was made.

How do you figure that? The Reds had to have a spot on the 40 man to acquire Valenzuela. That spot could have gone to Guevara. They took a chance on a kid with no control over a guy with a 11+ K/9 in his minor league career.

Beyond dumb.

Danny Serafini
03-11-2008, 11:38 AM
The decision to not protect Guevara was likely made long before the decision was made to specifically pick Valenzuela. Even if they decided they didn't want to pick a Rule 5 guy and filled the 40 man there was no guarantee that Guevara would be added. It had become pretty obvious that they didn't think his screwball would play at the next level. Guevara and Valenzuela were two separate decisions.

TRF
03-11-2008, 11:45 AM
And yet all he ever did was produce numbers better than the Reds "best" pitching prospects. Even if you discount his value by saying relievers have less value than starters, fine, Who in the Reds org was a better reliever? The answer is simple. No one.

For a team that has had bullpen issues for more than a few years now, losing Guevara and Medlock for no return seems pretty dumb to me.

camisadelgolf
07-15-2011, 06:59 AM
Just to update on Sergio Valenzuela, he was picked as an All-Star in the Mexican League. Feel free to scroll up and enjoy reading the quotes on Carlos Guevara. I forgot how upset people were to lose that guy.

Dan
07-15-2011, 07:16 AM
Just to update on Sergio Valenzuela, he was picked as an All-Star in the Mexican League. Feel free to scroll up and enjoy reading the quotes on Carlos Guevara. I forgot how upset people were to lose that guy.

You mean people who have lots of experience and get paid lots of money to make personnel decisions might have more of a handle on how good a player is than us random posters on some message board on the internet? Color me shocked.

Boss-Hog
07-15-2011, 07:49 AM
You mean people who have lots of experience and get paid lots of money to make personnel decisions might have more of a handle on how good a player is than us random posters on some message board on the internet? Color me shocked.
Chris Booker also comes to mind

edabbs44
07-15-2011, 08:01 AM
Chris Booker also comes to mind

Pedro Viola.

mth123
07-15-2011, 02:09 PM
You mean people who have lots of experience and get paid lots of money to make personnel decisions might have more of a handle on how good a player is than us random posters on some message board on the internet? Color me shocked.

Of course the same people valued Valenzuela.

CTA513
07-15-2011, 02:47 PM
Pedro Viola.

Josh Hamilton or Volquez

WebScorpion
07-16-2011, 03:50 AM
Awwww, ma-an...I was really looking forward Sergio-mania in a couple of years. :(