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RedsManRick
03-13-2008, 06:11 PM
Per Joe Strauss of the St. Louis Dispatch:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/ACFA084AAA7A730B8625740B006B79E6?OpenDocument



UPITER, Fla. -- The Cardinals moved to address their question-filled starting rotation Thursday by reaching agreement with free agent righthander Kyle Lohse on a one-year contract, pending Lohse passing a team physical Friday. Terms were not disclosed.

The move occurs three days after the Cardinals suggested four-fifths of their projected season-ending rotation would be unavailable opening day. Joel Pineiro’s inability to make Wednesday’s scheduled start due to recurring shoulder stiffness served as the catalyst for Thursday’s signing, as general manager John Mozeliak initiated negotiations with Lohse’s agent, Scott Boras.

The Cardinals have virtually ruled out Matt Clement’s availability for opening day, and Mark Mulder and Chris Carpenter continue to rehab from shoulder and elbow surgery, respectively.

Lohse, 29, constructed a 9-12 record and 4.62 ERA while splitting last season between the Cincinnati Reds and the Philadelphia Phillies. Just as importantly, he made 34 starts and worked 192 2/3 innings.

With their rotation in flux, the Cardinals have scheduled Clayton Mortensen for Friday's start in Vero Beach against the Los Angeles Dodgers. Mortensen never has pitched above Class A and was made the 36th overall pick of last June’s amateur draft.

Adam Wainwright and Braden Looper entered Thursday as the only pitchers considered locks for the Redbirds’ Opening Day rotation. A scrum including Anthony Reyes, Brad Thompson, Todd Wellemeyer, Kyle McClellan and Mike Parisi was under consideration.

Lohse’s best seasons came with the Minnesota Twins in 2002-03 when he won 27 games combined. Just as significant, Lohse worked 201 innings in 2003 and 194 in 2004. He has made at least 30 starts in five of the last six seasons.

Lohse could report to the team’s spring training headquarters as early as Friday afternoon.

Originally projected as the free agent market’s second-most attractive pitcher, Lohse languished as Carlos Silva, rated the market’s top pitcher, became the only arm to receive a multi-year deal.

The Cardinals, meanwhile, passed on several low-budget options, including Jon Lieber, Josh Fogg, Sidney Ponson and Bartolo Colon.

fearofpopvol1
03-13-2008, 06:14 PM
Not a bad idea for the Cards. I wonder what they paid.

BuckeyeRedleg
03-13-2008, 06:19 PM
Great pick-up for the Cards. It's what they do. I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up solid numbers there.

If they got him for 3M, it will be interesting to follow his season and compare his with Fogg's. Me, personally, I'd rather spend 3M on Lohse, than 1M on Fogg.

We'll see.

PuffyPig
03-13-2008, 06:22 PM
Great pick-up for the Cards. It's what they do. I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up solid numbers there.

If they got him for 3M, it will be interesting to follow his season and compare his with Fogg's. Me, personally, I'd rather spend 3M on Lohse, than 1M on Fogg.

We'll see.

I agree. Lohse is basicaly a league average starter, Fogg something less.

WMR
03-13-2008, 06:37 PM
I agree. Lohse is basicaly a league average starter, Fogg something less.

I really want to know what St. Louis is paying him.

If the money's at all close, the Fogg deal will look absolutely pathetic.

CTA513
03-13-2008, 06:39 PM
Lohse and Foggs major league careers look about the same except for Lohse being able to strikeout more batters.

cincyinco
03-13-2008, 06:40 PM
won't be long before good kyle always shows up against the reds..

guess he'd now be bad kyle when that happens..

Spitball
03-13-2008, 06:41 PM
The better the pitching depth, all the better. But, I'm not going to groan over a Lohse-type at $3 million slipping past the Reds. Fogg at $1 million can be pushed from the rotation in the event Volquez, Belisle, and Cueto can push hard enough. A three million dollar investment would need much more push.

Matt700wlw
03-13-2008, 06:41 PM
Lohse will also have Dave Duncan working with him....Fogg...not so much.

Will M
03-13-2008, 06:55 PM
Great pick-up for the Cards. It's what they do. I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up solid numbers there.

If they got him for 3M, it will be interesting to follow his season and compare his with Fogg's. Me, personally, I'd rather spend 3M on Lohse, than 1M on Fogg.

We'll see.

FYI - Fogg can be cut. He gets paid ~$100K for spring training and if he doesn't make the team the rest of his $1M salary does not get paid.

TRF
03-13-2008, 06:57 PM
how about Affeldt? he stinks on ice right now.

Ltlabner
03-13-2008, 07:01 PM
Lohse will also have Dave Duncan working with him....Fogg...not so much.

That damn guy is an evil genious or something.

WMR
03-13-2008, 07:03 PM
Lohse > Fogg + Affeldt

pedro
03-13-2008, 07:10 PM
priceless.

last year everyone was screaming how badly Lohse sucked.

edit: that doesn;t mean that you TRF or Wilymorocks, or anyone else in this thread, really were the ones screaming.

Will M
03-13-2008, 07:13 PM
priceless.

last year everyone was screaming how badly Lohse sucked.

1. good one

2. Last winter I thought Lohse was primed for a big year. I was wrong

3. Folks, the Cardinals and the Astros are in big trouble. The Cubs, Brewers & Reds are the top of the NL Central for the next few years.

Matt700wlw
03-13-2008, 07:13 PM
That damn guy is an evil genious or something.

He's the ONLY reason I can see Lohse having a better year than his typical numbers would indicate....

Ltlabner
03-13-2008, 07:21 PM
He's the ONLY reason I can see Lohse having a better year than his typical numbers would indicate....

Well...that and three little letters...














HINT: P.E.D.

gm
03-13-2008, 07:23 PM
That damn guy is an evil genious or something.

My first thought as well. Darth Duncan will fix KL and he'll screw the Reds out of 3-4 wins this season

fearofpopvol1
03-13-2008, 07:33 PM
FYI - Fogg can be cut. He gets paid ~$100K for spring training and if he doesn't make the team the rest of his $1M salary does not get paid.

Is there a link that exists for that? If so, very interesting. Especially with the kids doing well in ST. I can't envision the Reds actually doing that, though.

KoryMac5
03-13-2008, 07:35 PM
I doubt even Duncan can turn this head case around. Let's face it his attitude problem is the real reason he was still sitting at home on March 13. I can't wait to see Lohse and Larussa go at it for the first time, that is what will be really priceless.

Spring~Fields
03-13-2008, 08:11 PM
He's the ONLY reason I can see Lohse having a better year than his typical numbers would indicate....

I would not be surprised if Duncan did help him. Duncan seems to be a real instructor or pitching coach that actually helps improve the individual vs being a coach that gets the gig through the pipeline or network.

TRF
03-13-2008, 08:24 PM
priceless.

last year everyone was screaming how badly Lohse sucked.

edit: that doesn;t mean that you TRF or Wilymorocks, or anyone else in this thread, really were the ones screaming.

I screamed when the Reds acquired him. I liked the move if it was for the pen, but he performed well enough as a starter.

He's infuriating to watch though. tons of talent and no idea of how to use it.

Chip R
03-13-2008, 08:31 PM
I doubt even Duncan can turn this head case around. Let's face it his attitude problem is the real reason he was still sitting at home on March 13. I can't wait to see Lohse and Larussa go at it for the first time, that is what will be really priceless.


Or, maybe because it's LaRussa who is his manager instead of a guy lke Narron, he'll listen a bit more. Of course he didn't get along with TK in MIN. I'm guessing we wn't see much difference. Good Kyle one day and Bad Kyle the next.

Spitball
03-13-2008, 08:37 PM
I doubt even Duncan can turn this head case around...

Other head cases like Tomko, Ponson, and Weaver all had ERA's over 5.00 while with Dave Duncan.

GAC
03-13-2008, 08:42 PM
FYI - Fogg can be cut. He gets paid ~$100K for spring training and if he doesn't make the team the rest of his $1M salary does not get paid.

Exactly. And at the time we signed Fogg, Lohse was still holding out and demanding big money and a multi-year deal.

He has since, since no one was calling, lowered his demands. ;)

Will M
03-13-2008, 09:13 PM
Is there a link that exists for that? If so, very interesting. Especially with the kids doing well in ST. I can't envision the Reds actually doing that, though.

I don't have a link. A knowledgable coworker told me this yesterday & I thought it odd. Then C Trent said it on 1530 today.

Hollcat
03-13-2008, 09:14 PM
Rotoworld says it's a 1 yr 4.25 Mil. deal

BuckeyeRedleg
03-13-2008, 09:32 PM
Remember folk on this board (including me) thinking Lohse would fetch anywhere from 3 yrs/21M in FA?

I didn't realize Fogg could be cut. GAC makes a good point. I guess we did okay with Fogg. I just think Lohse will be solid in STL and I really was hoping we copuld benefit when he puts it all together.

PuffyPig
03-13-2008, 10:39 PM
It's funny how smart Duncan was in "fixing" pitchers when the Cards boasted superb fielding and great hitting.

Suddenly,the great fielding is gone, the Cards can't hit, and guys like Wells,Reyes and Maroth lose, lose and lose some more.

Cedric
03-13-2008, 10:42 PM
It's funny how smart Duncan was in "fixing" pitchers when the Cards boasted superb fielding and great hitting.

Suddenly,the great fielding is gone, the Cards can't hit, and guys like Wells,Reyes and Maroth lose, lose and lose some more.

Agree completely. Nothing in baseball is overlooked as much as a great fielding team. Without a tidy stat that is proven it's something people just don't talk enough about. It changes EVERYTHING. It changes a pitchers confidence and that alone is huge.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2008, 10:44 PM
priceless.

last year everyone was screaming how badly Lohse sucked.

edit: that doesn;t mean that you TRF or Wilymorocks, or anyone else in this thread, really were the ones screaming.

I hate Lohse. I'm glad he's not a Red. I can see him being what he was last year, but I could also see him being Milton.

Cedric
03-13-2008, 10:49 PM
I hate Lohse. I'm glad he's not a Red. I can see him being what he was last year, but I could also see him being Milton.

He's not a good pitcher, but either is Affeldt or Fogg. I guess I'd rather have Fogg for 3.25 million less though. Really the numbers for Fogg aren't much worse than Lohse and I can't see him bombing like Lohse is capable of. I also could see Lohse going Milton on the NL and lets all hope for that.

Falls City Beer
03-13-2008, 10:52 PM
He's not a good pitcher, but either is Affeldt or Fogg. I guess I'd rather have Fogg for 3.25 million less though. Really the numbers for Fogg aren't much worse than Lohse and I can't see him bombing like Lohse is capable of. I also could see Lohse going Milton on the NL and lets all hope for that.

I'd rather not have to guarantee a guy like Lohse 33 starts. Fogg's a placeholder.

REDREAD
03-13-2008, 11:51 PM
Good move for the Cards, they needed bodies. That doesn't mean I consider him a savior or wish the Reds signed him though.

To me, Fogg and Lohse is kind of a tossup.

Caveat Emperor
03-14-2008, 12:30 AM
Kyle Lohse is what he is -- flashes of brilliance surrounded by mountains of headaches. I'm happy to let him be someone else's problem. No guarantees that you'll get another Matt Maloney for him if you try to move him again.

Especially considering the Reds have 2 starters locked and 3 or 4 talented young players that should be pushing into the rotation by June (if not opening day).

KoryMac5
03-14-2008, 12:38 AM
To me, Fogg and Lohse is kind of a tossup.

Not when you add attitude and salary to the equation.

Ravenlord
03-14-2008, 12:45 AM
i still would love to see someone with Lohse's talent but with Paul Wilson's attitude...

Steve4192
03-14-2008, 01:22 AM
I'd rather not have to guarantee a guy like Lohse 33 starts. Fogg's a placeholder.

That is the real difference.

Fogg is making a small enough salary that no one in the front office will bat an eyelash if he is demoted to the pen or even AAA to make room for one of the kids. The same can not be said of a guy pulling down a $4MM salary.

Blitz Dorsey
03-14-2008, 01:49 AM
Unfortunately, I think $4.25 million for one season is a bargain for the Cardinals. Not only are they getting him for below what I expected he would get on the open market per season (I also expected something in the 3-year/$21 million neighborhood) they have no long-term risk at all. The Eric Milton factor is not at play at all here. Good move by the Cards. Not great, but good.

BTW, I would rather have Lohse than Fogg+Affeldt and the pay is pretty much similar. And I also find the irony in that a lot of people ripped Lohse last year and now there are some who wish he was a Red and not a Cardinal. (I never ripped Lohse, I actually liked him while he was here... but I bet he was kind of a tool in the clubhouse. He didn't seem like a jerk when he was interviewed, but still... Definitely always showed a good arm when he was here though.)

I think Lohse is actually better than Silva and the M's WAY overpaid for Silva. Boras must be scratching his head (which is located somewhere up his rear end) right about now.

Strikes Out Looking
03-14-2008, 09:05 AM
I'd rather have Johnny Cueto, and Edison Volquez, and Homer Bailey, and Matt Belisle. Three unproven and one who is not a head case, hardworking and cheap.

nate
03-14-2008, 10:07 AM
I was really hoping the Cards would sign Eric Milton.

PuffyPig
03-14-2008, 10:13 AM
i still would love to see someone with Lohse's talent but with Paul Wilson's attitude...


The Reds have that someone.

His name is Aaron Harang.

REDREAD
03-14-2008, 10:24 AM
Not when you add attitude and salary to the equation.

I meant talent/performance wise.
Not speaking of salary.
IMO, both of them are on low priced, one year deals. Lohse at 4.25 million isn't so bad considering the contract Freel has to ride the bench. If Lohse was a good bet to be better than Fogg, then I would rather pay 3.25 million more for Lohse.. but I consider it a tossup on who will be better this year.

Now, comparing Lohse to Affedlt, I think Lohse might be the better bet if Affedlt is going in the rotation. I'm still guessing that Affedlt will be tried there, but maybe not.

coachw513
03-14-2008, 10:25 AM
This morning on "Mike and Mike" Buster Olney called Lohse "the biggest loser in FA" relating Lohse went from turning down 3 for $30 M with the Phils and settled for this...he also interestingly mentioned Lohse was considering firing Boras last week and that he (Olney) isn't sure who negotiated this contract with the Cardinals...I found that interesting

Falls City Beer
03-14-2008, 10:39 AM
The Reds have that someone.

His name is Aaron Harang.

Aaron's stuff is much better than Lohse's.

LincolnparkRed
03-14-2008, 10:51 AM
This morning on "Mike and Mike" Buster Olney called Lohse "the biggest loser in FA" relating Lohse went from turning down 3 for $30 M with the Phils and settled for this...he also interestingly mentioned Lohse was considering firing Boras last week and that he (Olney) isn't sure who negotiated this contract with the Cardinals...I found that interesting

I have a feeling Boras might be on his way out with how he handled Kenny Rogers, Arod, Sheffield and now what you said above. That can't be good for business.

LincolnparkRed
03-14-2008, 10:53 AM
sorry

Team Clark
03-14-2008, 11:00 AM
Lohse is serviceable. Perfect fit for the desperate Cardinals. The Reds are not that desperate. (I hope)

Team Clark
03-14-2008, 11:01 AM
I have a feeling Boras might be on his way out with how he handled Kenny Rogers, Arod, Sheffield and now what you said above. That can't be good for business.

That could serve as a really good thing for Baseball in general, IMO.

Strikes Out Looking
03-14-2008, 11:56 AM
I was really hoping the Cards would sign Eric Milton.

They still have plenty of time to do that.

blumj
03-14-2008, 12:35 PM
I have a feeling Boras might be on his way out with how he handled Kenny Rogers, Arod, Sheffield and now what you said above. That can't be good for business.
He just added Manny Ramirez. Things can't be too bad.

KoryMac5
03-14-2008, 12:46 PM
He just added Manny Ramirez. Things can't be too bad.

That's just Manny being Manny.

Chip R
03-14-2008, 12:50 PM
That's just Manny being Manny.


Yeah. Manny may dump him next week.

KronoRed
03-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Glad it wasn't the Reds

Blitz Dorsey
03-14-2008, 04:33 PM
This morning on "Mike and Mike" Buster Olney called Lohse "the biggest loser in FA" relating Lohse went from turning down 3 for $30 M with the Phils and settled for this...he also interestingly mentioned Lohse was considering firing Boras last week and that he (Olney) isn't sure who negotiated this contract with the Cardinals...I found that interesting

Berry, berry eentahresting.

REDREAD
03-14-2008, 04:39 PM
I have a feeling Boras might be on his way out with how he handled Kenny Rogers, Arod, Sheffield and now what you said above. That can't be good for business.

I think Boras is here to stay as long as he wants to.

The owners basically had a mini-collusion this year. They were smarter about it this time, by lowballing only the bad/mediocre players instead of shunning the superstars. Remember when Lance Parris was still unsigned at spring training and settled for a very low offer.. that was obvious collusion. This collusion isn't so obvious, but I will say it's not a coincidence that after last season's free spending, suddenly all the owners got fiscally tight.

Boras will adjust to the new marketplace or the union will bust the owners on collusion again, although this time, it will be harder to prove.

Chip R
03-14-2008, 04:41 PM
I think Boras is here to stay as long as he wants to.

The owners basically had a mini-collusion this year. They were smarter about it this time, by lowballing only the bad/mediocre players instead of shunning the superstars. Remember when Lance Parris was still unsigned at spring training and settled for a very low offer.. that was obvious collusion. This collusion isn't so obvious, but I will say it's not a coincidence that after last season's free spending, suddenly all the owners got fiscally tight.

Boras will adjust to the new marketplace or the union will bust the owners on collusion again, although this time, it will be harder to prove.

That's not collusion. That's common sense. It's a free market and it works both ways. Owners don't have to fall over each other offering every jabronie 3 years $30M if they don't want to.