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View Full Version : Cueto and Volquez move into the "spring training" starting rotation



reds44
03-13-2008, 08:05 PM
* Change in the upcoming pitching rotation. Aaron Harang will throw in a minor league game on Sunday and Edinson Volquez will start the game against the Phillies. Bronson Arroyo will throw in a minor league game on Monday and Johnny Cueto will start the game against hte Tigers on that day
Per trent

savafan
03-13-2008, 08:08 PM
I like this move. I will feel a lot better about the Reds' chances this season with these two in the rotation and Affeldt and Fogg in the pen. I also wouldn't mind seeing Bailey pitch in relief

M2
03-13-2008, 08:19 PM
Who's starting Friday and Saturday?

Matt700wlw
03-13-2008, 08:21 PM
Who's starting Friday and Saturday?

2 guys NOT named Cueto and Volquez ;)

Matt700wlw
03-13-2008, 08:22 PM
Bailey's 5th day would be Saturday, so maybe he'll get another look...

Matt700wlw
03-13-2008, 08:47 PM
Here you go

Fri. vs. NYY Belisle vs. Phil Hughes 1:05 p.m.
Fri at Pit Fogg v. Matt Morris 1:05 p.m.
Sat at Bos Bailey v. Jon Lester 1:05 p.m. WLW
Sun vs Phi Volquez vs. TBA 1:05 p.m. WLW
Mon vs. Det Cueto vs TBA WLW FSN Ohio

Spring~Fields
03-13-2008, 09:15 PM
Here you go

Fri. vs. NYY Belisle vs. Phil Hughes 1:05 p.m.
Fri at Pit Fogg v. Matt Morris 1:05 p.m.
Sat at Bos Bailey v. Jon Lester 1:05 p.m. WLW
Sun vs Phi Volquez vs. TBA 1:05 p.m. WLW
Mon vs. Det Cueto vs TBA WLW FSN Ohio

Thank you,

That will be an interesting period. I hope they all pitch great to make it even more interesting.

GAC
03-13-2008, 09:21 PM
How many on here, due to kids like Cueto and Volquez, think Bailey is going to start the season in AAA? ;)

deltachi8
03-13-2008, 09:25 PM
How many on here, due to kids like Cueto and Volquez, think Bailey is going to start the season in AAA? ;)

I do. It could end up being the best things that happened to Homer Bailey are named Cueto and Volquez.

Spring~Fields
03-13-2008, 09:27 PM
How many on here, due to kids like Cueto and Volquez, think Bailey is going to start the season in AAA? ;)

I think that he will or that Baker will try to get him a year in the bullpen working with Pole to prep him for next year. I am not convinced that the minor league experience or coaches down at that level can get him where he needs to get to at this point and that he might get over the hump by pitching out of the bullpen for a large part of the season.

OnBaseMachine
03-13-2008, 09:28 PM
Good news.

I think the best Reds rotation possible is with Cueto and Volquez in it. Those two guys have special arms and could put this team in the playoffs IMO. They will have some lumps along the way but I think we'll see a lot more positive than negative from them.

Aronchis
03-13-2008, 09:53 PM
Looks like the Reds rotation spots(2 up for grabs) is down to the final four(Cueto,Bailey,Volquez and Fogg).

WMR
03-13-2008, 09:57 PM
1) Harang
2) Arroyo
3) Belisle
4) Volquez
5) Cueto

...

That's how it'll start... wouldn't surprise me in the least to see #4 and #5 become #2 and #3 (not necessarily in that order) by the end of the season.

fearofpopvol1
03-14-2008, 03:10 AM
1) Harang
2) Arroyo
3) Belisle
4) Volquez
5) Cueto

...

That's how it'll start... wouldn't surprise me in the least to see #4 and #5 become #2 and #3 (not necessarily in that order) by the end of the season.

I'd like to see Cueto slotted in at 4 and Volquez 5, but I'd take that scenario anyhow.

Topcat
03-14-2008, 05:21 AM
Do you see what is going on you guys ? A miraculous event is happening! Yes our beloved Reds fans are talking about Pitching and not about lack off but an actual option dealing in over abundance!

I have no claim to being Mr. Know it all but i saw, sorry if I am missing other names aka the denizens of the minor league forum this coming as did Dirt and OBM and shout out to Sandy. This was the only realistic way to make the Reds Better longterm. there will be growing pains and it could the way of Generation K. But this is the only possible way for this franchise to contend on a long term basis.

I am so pumped about our future words escape me. If all goes as expected I will hire Falls as my spokesman to convey my feelings of how special I believe our upper echelon kids are.

mth123
03-14-2008, 08:10 AM
I'd like to see Cueto slotted in at 4 and Volquez 5, but I'd take that scenario anyhow.

I think for this team slotting should be more concerned with who these guys are as opposed to how they pitch. Cueto is a 22 year old valuable property who seems to have built his stamina to the point of being able to go 200 innings in 2008. The number of starts he makes is less concerning than how many pitches deep he goes per start IMO. I'd slot him between Harang and Arroyo. It isn't so much that I'm saying he's the number 2 as much as I want Harang and Arroyo who both can go deeper into games with less injury concern pitching the day before and the day after. That should allow the team to err on the side of taking Cueto out an inning too soon versus an inning too late.

I'd slot Belisle 4 and Volquez 5. Belisle can be the "take one for the team" guy allowing Volquez to be babied a little (not needed as much for him at his age as it is for Cueto IMO) with Harang following him.

Fogg is the long reliever that can come in and save the pen so that a bad start today doesn't have to mean pitcher abuse tomorrow. Fogg can also take a turn once in a while to allow the team to push everyone back a day or to allow one of the guys who may be gassed to skip a spot once through the rotation. I think that would set up quite well. Affeldt goes back to being a 1 inning lefty and hopefully fills a huge hole on this team. Bailey gets his 160 inning season of command development in AAA which should allow him to be an asset in 2009.

Harang
Cueto
Arroyo
Belisle
Volquez

Fogg spot starting and long relief.

Best rotation since the late 80's, maybe longer.

Chip R
03-14-2008, 11:22 AM
I think that he will or that Baker will try to get him a year in the bullpen working with Pole to prep him for next year. I am not convinced that the minor league experience or coaches down at that level can get him where he needs to get to at this point and that he might get over the hump by pitching out of the bullpen for a large part of the season.


It's not really a bad idea and it's something worth considering. But Homer seems to have more trouble with runners on base and more often than not he'll be coming in with runners on base if he's pitching out of the pen. I don't know if the Reds are going to be too keen about setting him up to fail like that. Of course he couldn't do any worse than Majewski. Plus he can work on that runners on base thing out of the bullpen where there's less pressure.

princeton
03-14-2008, 11:27 AM
Harang
Cueto
Arroyo
Belisle
Volquez


Best rotation since the late 80's, maybe longer.

too young to say, of course.

but recall the end of 1995: Schourek, Smiley, David Wells, Burba, Portugal

RedlegJake
03-14-2008, 02:50 PM
And if Bailey gets pushed by the fact suddenly he's like the third best young pitcher and wants to "catch up", goes to AAA and comes up later hot, with Cueto and Volquez pitching well you could see a rotation of Harang-Cueto-Volquez-Bailey & Arroyo by year's end. With Arroyo as the 5th best pitcher quality wise! I know that's asking a lot from these kids but its not inconceivable, either. With Weathers, Belisle & Fogg working long relief and Roenicke-Burton-Cordero slinging heat at the end.

Reds1
03-14-2008, 03:20 PM
Mon vs. Det Cueto vs TBA WLW FSN Ohio

Wow! We all get to see Cueto pitch on TV. I can't wait until Monday now.

flyer85
03-14-2008, 03:24 PM
is ST counts for anything ... Cueto, Volquez and Fogg are pitching their way in and Affeldt and belisle are pitching their way out.

Jpup
03-14-2008, 04:07 PM
the game on Monday is in HD on FSN Detroit HD if anyone has the sports pack. I really was hoping Arroyo would get the start and Cueto would follow him. I want to see how Arroyo is looking this spring.

Talk about tough. Homer Bailey gets the Yankees and then the Red Sox to decide whether he is ready. "It ain't easy being cheesy...er, Homer."

Will M
03-14-2008, 04:17 PM
I think for this team slotting should be more concerned with who these guys are as opposed to how they pitch. Cueto is a 22 year old valuable property who seems to have built his stamina to the point of being able to go 200 innings in 2008. The number of starts he makes is less concerning than how many pitches deep he goes per start IMO. I'd slot him between Harang and Arroyo. It isn't so much that I'm saying he's the number 2 as much as I want Harang and Arroyo who both can go deeper into games with less injury concern pitching the day before and the day after. That should allow the team to err on the side of taking Cueto out an inning too soon versus an inning too late.

I'd slot Belisle 4 and Volquez 5. Belisle can be the "take one for the team" guy allowing Volquez to be babied a little (not needed as much for him at his age as it is for Cueto IMO) with Harang following him.

Fogg is the long reliever that can come in and save the pen so that a bad start today doesn't have to mean pitcher abuse tomorrow. Fogg can also take a turn once in a while to allow the team to push everyone back a day or to allow one of the guys who may be gassed to skip a spot once through the rotation. I think that would set up quite well. Affeldt goes back to being a 1 inning lefty and hopefully fills a huge hole on this team. Bailey gets his 160 inning season of command development in AAA which should allow him to be an asset in 2009.

Harang
Cueto
Arroyo
Belisle
Volquez

Fogg spot starting and long relief.

Best rotation since the late 80's, maybe longer.

My thoughts exactly. Lets go with the best five arms. Cueto and Volquez have looked really good. Fogg gives us a long reliever which no one else in the pen can really do.

That gives us a pen of:
1. Cordero
2. Burton
3. Weathers
4 & 5. Likely two lefties: Stanton, Affeldt, Bray if healthy
6. Roenike ( fingers crossed ), McBeth, Coffey :thumbdown or Maijk :thumbdown :thumbdown
7. Fogg - long relief

Is it me or is our pen in deep doo doo if Weathers gets old fast or Burton was a 1/2 year wonder?

Jpup
03-14-2008, 04:23 PM
My thoughts exactly. Lets go with the best five arms. Cueto and Volquez have looked really good. Fogg gives us a long reliever which no one else in the pen can really do.

That gives us a pen of:
1. Cordero
2. Burton
3. Weathers
4 & 5. Likely two lefties: Stanton, Affeldt, Bray if healthy
6. Roenike ( fingers crossed ), McBeth, Coffey :thumbdown or Maijk :thumbdown :thumbdown
7. Fogg - long relief

Is it me or is our pen in deep doo doo if Weathers gets old fast or Burton was a 1/2 year wonder?

I would imagine that Stanton, Affeldt, & Bray are all going to make it. Wayne said the other night that, ideally, you want 3 lefties down there. Majewski is also going to make the club IMO.

*BaseClogger*
03-14-2008, 04:23 PM
the game on Monday is in HD on FSN Detroit HD if anyone has the sports pack. I really was hoping Arroyo would get the start and Cueto would follow him. I want to see how Arroyo is looking this spring.

Talk about tough. Homer Bailey gets the Yankees and then the Red Sox to decide whether he is ready. "It ain't easy being cheesy...er, Homer."

or live in metro-Detroit :thumbup:

What time is the game? Sounds like it might be worth skipping school if necesary... :D

Jpup
03-14-2008, 04:24 PM
or live in metro-Detroit :thumbup:

What time is the game? Sounds like it might be worth skipping school if necesary... :D

I think it's @ noon.

*BaseClogger*
03-14-2008, 04:25 PM
I think it's @ 1:00 central.

Central Time? That's random... well that's 2:00 here in the East so skipping school won't be necesary :(

Edit: Ah, I see the edit... early lunch! :D

BRM
03-14-2008, 04:36 PM
I would imagine that Stanton, Affeldt, & Bray are all going to make it. Wayne said the other night that, ideally, you want 3 lefties down there. Majewski is also going to make the club IMO.

So much for having a strong bullpen.

REDREAD
03-14-2008, 04:43 PM
This is probably going to be considered blashphemy, but I will say it anyhow.

If Cueto and Volquez are ready, how about putting Belisle in the pen, where he seems to thrive and giving Fogg the #5 slot? I know Fogg is no savior, but that puts Fogg and Belisle both in roles where they've historically done better.

I'm not convinced Belisle will turn the corner this year as a starter. Just trying to be realistic, I do wish him well.

TRF
03-14-2008, 04:54 PM
This is probably going to be considered blashphemy, but I will say it anyhow.

If Cueto and Volquez are ready, how about putting Belisle in the pen, where he seems to thrive and giving Fogg the #5 slot? I know Fogg is no savior, but that puts Fogg and Belisle both in roles where they've historically done better.

I'm not convinced Belisle will turn the corner this year as a starter. Just trying to be realistic, I do wish him well.

Because they didn't stretch him out to 177 innings last year for no reason. Belisle hit a bump today. Fogg's bump has been his entire career. If Belisle pitches his way to the 5th spot in the rotation, he's still better than most teams #5 guy. I think there is an actual plan in place, one that probably sees Belisle and to a lesser extent Arroyo as bridges to the young guys in the long term eventually all four of Maloney Cueto Volquez and Bailey could be starters on this team. I think all four will get starts this year.

flyer85
03-14-2008, 05:01 PM
I think Belisle, while he has struggled in the spring(bad because he has no history with Dusty), has more upside than Fogg. I have no idea how this one will play out.

REDREAD
03-14-2008, 05:11 PM
Because they didn't stretch him out to 177 innings last year for no reason. Belisle hit a bump today. Fogg's bump has been his entire career. If Belisle pitches his way to the 5th spot in the rotation, he's still better than most teams #5 guy. I think there is an actual plan in place, one that probably sees Belisle and to a lesser extent Arroyo as bridges to the young guys in the long term eventually all four of Maloney Cueto Volquez and Bailey could be starters on this team. I think all four will get starts this year.

I don't know. Belisle was a starter last year out of necessity. There was a shortage of bodies. He wasn't the worst guy we ran out there, but he certainly wasn't inspiring either.

Fogg was better than Matt last year in HR/IP. Batting average against, and ERA, despite playing in Coors. About the only metric Matt beat Fogg in was Whip. (Based on my casual analysis).

It's hard to say because Matt only got about 120 IP in 2005 + 2006, but he seemed to do better out of the pen those years than he did last year. And IIRC, he had injury issues in 2005-6, but still pitched better out of the pen.

I think Matt might be more valuable in the pen.. that's all I'm saying.
Fogg is still better than most teams #5. Although, I guess technically the kids would be slotted at the end of the rotation.

REDREAD
03-14-2008, 05:15 PM
I think Belisle, while he has struggled in the spring(bad because he has no history with Dusty), has more upside than Fogg. I have no idea how this one will play out.

I hope so, but the guy is already 27 and has had lingering injury problems. I'd love for him to be a success story, but he's only 1 year younger than Patterson, whom most people don't consider to have upside.

Matt's coming off a 5.32 ERA season. Fogg really did outpitch him last year.

Matt700wlw
03-14-2008, 05:20 PM
I'd have no problem with Belisle out of the bullpen...I've been saying that forever. He reminds me of Lohse (except he's not a head case)...he's got the stuff to be very good, but doesn't have the makeup to handle it, mentally.

In the bullpen, he'd be a guy I use for an inning or two, and I'd start him at the beginning of the inning, not bring him in for high pressure situations.

flyer85
03-14-2008, 05:21 PM
I hope so, but the guy is already 27 and has had lingering injury problems. his upside isn't much, it's just that Fogg has no upside. Matt has a higher K rate and his stuff is better. Doesn't mean he will pitch better but with Belisle I believe he could be better than Fogg but there really isn't a lot of difference between the two.

TRF
03-14-2008, 05:27 PM
I hope so, but the guy is already 27 and has had lingering injury problems. I'd love for him to be a success story, but he's only 1 year younger than Patterson, whom most people don't consider to have upside.

Matt's coming off a 5.32 ERA season. Fogg really did outpitch him last year.

He's a year older than Harang and on a very similar development path. I'm notr saying he'll make the same leap Aaron did, but he could do it.

paulrichjr
03-14-2008, 11:45 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=neyer_rob

Young arms the key for Reds
posted: Friday, March 14, 2008 | Feedback | Print Entry

Apparently the talk of Reds camp is Johnny Cueto, who tossed four shutout innings against the Phillies on Wednesday. How well has he pitched this spring? From MLB.com:

Through three games, including one start, Cueto has a 1.00 ERA and eight strikeouts in nine innings with just one walk. He has continued to set the bar high in his competition for a rotation spot against Homer Bailey, Edinson Volquez, Matt Belisle, Josh Fogg and Jeremy Affeldt.

Just to be clear, there's more than one rotation spot up for grabs. The top two slots are set, with Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo. But after them the rotation is wide open. Or should be. In 37 career starts, Belisle's ERA is 5.11. In 179 career starts, Fogg's ERA is 4.93. In 42 career starts, Affeldt's ERA is 5.41.

Belisle's a holdover. Fogg and Affeldt were both signed as starters, presumably to take some pressure off the kids. But frankly, none of those guys has any business starting regularly for a good team, and the Reds have a chance to be pretty good.

Nobody talks about this, but in this sense the Reds are just like the Yankees: they'll go exactly as far as their talented young starters take them. Obviously, it's unfair to expect Cueto, Bailey and Volquez to start 30 games apiece and finish the season as Rookie of the Year candidates. But all three of the kids have more talent in their little fingers than those three veterans have in their whole pitching arms. They're why this year's Reds might be last year's Rockies.

Spring~Fields
03-15-2008, 05:51 PM
It's not really a bad idea and it's something worth considering. But Homer seems to have more trouble with runners on base and more often than not he'll be coming in with runners on base if he's pitching out of the pen. I don't know if the Reds are going to be too keen about setting him up to fail like that. Of course he couldn't do any worse than Majewski. Plus he can work on that runners on base thing out of the bullpen where there's less pressure.

I think that it is in his head and would like to see him placed in situations such as relief that force him to throw strikes and get over it. I would also like to see him taken out of the spot light and taken out of trying to make the big leagues, become just one of the pitchers, one of the players nothing special, just a guy doing his job and see if he starts pitching better.

I think that they could get him mentally right out of the bullpen for a season.

The rest has to come with repetition and experience which isn’t anything in the realm of a short time.

M2
03-15-2008, 06:19 PM
I expect today will be Homer Bailey's last ST start for the big league club. Affeldt might get a start on Tuesday, but he's got to be out of the running for the rotation too.

That leaves Belisle, Cueto, Fogg and Volquez (listed alphabetically, not in any order of preference) for the 3-5 slots.

Meanwhile, Jared Burton is looking far from a sure thing in the bullpen and that could throw open another pitching slot for someone.

Redhook
03-15-2008, 08:48 PM
I expect today will be Homer Bailey's last ST start for the big league club. Affeldt might get a start on Tuesday, but he's got to be out of the running for the rotation too.

That leaves Belisle, Cueto, Fogg and Volquez (listed alphabetically, not in any order of preference) for the 3-5 slots.

Meanwhile, Jared Burton is looking far from a sure thing in the bullpen and that could throw open another pitching slot for someone.

I hope you're right about Homer and Affeldt. It's time to announce Homer will start in AAA and Affeldt will join the bullpen.

I'm pretty happy that Belisle, Cueto, Fogg and Volquez are battling for the last 3 rotation spots. This bodes well for the Reds. I hope it's really Belisle vs. Fogg for the last spot, but the Reds will definitely need all 4 of these guys at some point this year. For the first time since 1990, unless I forgot a year, I'm pretty optimistic about the Reds starting rotation.

I believe this team will win more than what they're projected to. I'm thinking in the neighborhood of 87 wins.

mth123
03-15-2008, 08:58 PM
It's time to announce Homer will start in AAA and Affeldt will join the bullpen.



It really is time. By the time this turn through the rotation is done, there will only be about 10 days left. Time to start setting the rotation and getting 6 or 7 innings from the 5 starters. I'd say the off day on the 19th is probably a good transition point. Only 10 spring games left after that.

It's also time to step up efforts to move a few guys to add an upgrade in the Bullpen.

OnBaseMachine
03-15-2008, 09:21 PM
I wouldn't officially announce it yet, but Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto would be my No. 3 and 4 starters and Belisle my number 5 starter.

*BaseClogger*
03-15-2008, 10:11 PM
I wouldn't officially announce it yet, but Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto would be my No. 3 and 4 starters and Belisle my number 5 starter.

why would Belisle be your #5 when you could skip one of the young guys out of the #5 in April to control their innings?

Spring~Fields
03-15-2008, 10:16 PM
It's not really a bad idea and it's something worth considering. But Homer seems to have more trouble with runners on base and more often than not he'll be coming in with runners on base if he's pitching out of the pen. I don't know if the Reds are going to be too keen about setting him up to fail like that. Of course he couldn't do any worse than Majewski. Plus he can work on that runners on base thing out of the bullpen where there's less pressure.

After reading this below if it is accurate, I agree with what you have written here and in the game thread even more. More time seasoning at such a young age won’t hurt him or the Reds.

“a club official told the Dayton Daily News that Bailey is minor-league material.”

“He said Bailey needs to accumulate innings, develop his off-speed pitches, work to become more efficient (fewer balls, more strikes) and work on his attitude.”

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/03/15/ddn031608redsb1.html

*BaseClogger*
03-15-2008, 10:18 PM
haha I think it's funny people keep bringing up Bailey's 'attitude.' His attitude wouldn't matter one bit if he was blowing smoke by major league hitters...

Spring~Fields
03-15-2008, 10:25 PM
haha I think it's funny people keep bringing up Bailey's 'attitude.' His attitude wouldn't matter one bit if he was blowing smoke by major league hitters...

I don't think anyone is speaking to a negative attitude, I think that they mean he needs more work and experience to improve his craft and needs to accept that versus trying too hard to make it and thus over throw the ball. He is a very young and determined young man and that can work against him at this stage.

Reds Nd2
03-15-2008, 10:26 PM
why would Belisle be your #5 when you could skip one of the young guys out of the #5 in April to control their innings?

The Reds only have two off days in April. They can skip a couple of starts, but they are going to need all five guys to start the season.

*BaseClogger*
03-15-2008, 10:30 PM
The Reds only have two off days in April. They can skip a couple of starts, but they are going to need all five guys to start the season.

You are correct. That even includes an off day after Opending Day. That seems kinda weird, considering they are starting the season in March. However, I'd still put Cueto #5 and Belisle #3...

Reds Nd2
03-15-2008, 10:45 PM
You are correct. That even includes an off day after Opending Day. That seems kinda weird, considering they are starting the season in March. However, I'd still put Cueto #5 and Belisle #3...

It's leap year and I think the Reds, at least for the past few seasons, have always had the day off after Opening Day. It seems though they have a much more difficult schedule in April than in years past when it comes to days off.

I agree with you about limiting innings pitched for the young guys though and I'd be trying to limit those innings at every turn. But I'd be more concerned with Volquez over Cueto at this point. Assuming both are in the rotation.

*BaseClogger*
03-15-2008, 11:11 PM
It's leap year and I think the Reds, at least for the past few seasons, have always had the day off after Opening Day. It seems though they have a much more difficult schedule in April than in years past when it comes to days off.

I agree with you about limiting innings pitched for the young guys though and I'd be trying to limit those innings at every turn. But I'd be more concerned with Volquez over Cueto at this point. Assuming both are in the rotation.

there is no reason to be more worried about Volquez's innings than Cueto's. Volquez threw 178.2 innings last year and he is also two and a half years older...

red-in-la
03-15-2008, 11:48 PM
It's leap year and I think the Reds, at least for the past few seasons, have always had the day off after Opening Day. It seems though they have a much more difficult schedule in April than in years past when it comes to days off.

I agree with you about limiting innings pitched for the young guys though and I'd be trying to limit those innings at every turn. But I'd be more concerned with Volquez over Cueto at this point. Assuming both are in the rotation.

The Reds have scheduled a day off after opening day for as long as I can remember. There may have been exceptions, but can't remember any. I was always told that they did this so that, if Opening Day were rained (or snowed) out, they could make it up the next day. Nobody wants to issue 50,000 rain checks (now it is less I guess).

*BaseClogger*
03-15-2008, 11:58 PM
I worded my original post poorly; I knew they always took the day after OD off, but I always thought they had almost every Monday off in April...

OnBaseMachine
03-16-2008, 12:27 AM
why would Belisle be your #5 when you could skip one of the young guys out of the #5 in April to control their innings?

Because I think Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto are going to give the Reds a better chance to win than Matt Belisle.

*BaseClogger*
03-16-2008, 12:36 AM
Because I think Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto are going to give the Reds a better chance to win than Matt Belisle.

Yes, but the spots in the rotation don't matter that much. It's more psycological than anything else. After the first couple of weeks, the matchups get all scambled anyways...

OnBaseMachine
03-16-2008, 12:43 AM
Yes, but the spots in the rotation don't matter that much. It's more psycological than anything else. After the first couple of weeks, the matchups get all scambled anyways...

I know but I'm saying I would rather skip Belisle than one of the two younger and talented kids because I think they give us a better chance at winning than Belisle. I also agree the Reds need to be careful with the two youngsters, like limiting the pitch counts and innings, but I don't think skipping Belisle's turn instead of Cueto/Volquez will really make much of a difference to their arm in April.

*BaseClogger*
03-16-2008, 12:49 AM
I know but I'm saying I would rather skip Belisle than one of the two younger and talented kids. I also agree the Reds need to be careful with the two youngsters, like limiting the pitch counts and innings, but I don't think skipping Belisle's turn instead of Cueto/Volquez will really make much of a difference to their arm in April.

OK, you have convinced me. Thanks for the reply :thumbup:

red-in-la
03-16-2008, 08:43 AM
The order of the rotation should be Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Fogg, Volquez. I would break up the power pitchers with Arroyo and Fogg.

Redhook
03-16-2008, 09:17 AM
The order of the rotation should be Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Fogg, Volquez. I would break up the power pitchers with Arroyo and Fogg.

I might go a step further.

Harang, Cueto, Arroyo, Volquez, Fogg. If a 5th starter wasn't needed, Fogg would be skipped instead of Volquez.

It should be an interesting 2 weeks to see what happens to this roster. I imagine there will be a trade or two. And I imagine some guys that should be on the team will be spending some time in the minors.

mth123
03-16-2008, 09:20 AM
The best way to protect a 22 year old is to slot him between the two workhorses. He doesn't have to be in the number 5 slot to skip a day. It looks like with either Fogg or Belisle the Reds will have a legitimate swingman that can spot start for any of these guys should they need skipped or pushed back a day. I have Cueto pitch in the two slot so he can be between Harang and Arroyo. In theory Harang and Arroyo will save the pen most often and the pen can be used more liberally when Cueto is pitching on the day between them. Cueto also threw some winter ball innings so his inning count for 2007 is really in the 190+ range. 200 innings shouldn't hurt him. The real risk is the 120 pitch outing which is more likely if he is following or preceding Fogg/Belisle in the rotation. I'd like to see them avoid any situation where Dusty thinks he needs to get an extra inning from Cueto because the pen was used up the day before. There is no way to completely avoid it I suppose, but I let him follow Harang to avoid it as much as possible and give the team the expectation that Arroyo can go deep the next day.

Matt700wlw
03-16-2008, 11:54 AM
Because I think Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto are going to give the Reds a better chance to win than Matt Belisle.

I'd put Fogg at #5 and Belisle in the bullpen at this point...that of course meaning Volquez and Cuerto are in the rotation

Spring~Fields
03-16-2008, 02:45 PM
I'd put Fogg at #5 and Belisle in the bullpen at this point...that of course meaning Volquez and Cuerto are in the rotation

SOLD....lets go with what Matt said. As long as there is no unforseen fine print the rest of the way. :thumbup:

OnBaseMachine
03-16-2008, 02:47 PM
Volquez is starting today against the Phillies "A" lineup. Check out his line so far:

3 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 5 K

He struckout the past two MVP's Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins in the 1st inning.

Screwball
03-16-2008, 03:19 PM
I was never one who wanted to trade Bruce (amongst others) for Erik Bedard, but just imagine if the Reds did. Would a rotation of Harang, Bedard, Arroyo, Cueto and Volquez be the best in the Majors?

Matt700wlw
03-16-2008, 03:20 PM
I was never one who wanted to trade Bruce (amongst others) for Erik Bedard, but just imagine if the Reds did. Would a rotation of Harang, Bedard, Arroyo, Cueto and Volquez be the best in the Majors?

Salivating... :)

OnBaseMachine
03-16-2008, 03:21 PM
Volquez: 5 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 6 K

That is Volquez' final line against the Phillies "A" lineup today. In 13 spring innings, Volquez has struckout 19 batters and has a 3.46 ERA. That is a 13.15 K/9.

OnBaseMachine
03-16-2008, 04:33 PM
Edinson Volquez's first start was a good one. He went five shutout innings, allowing three hits and walk. He struck out six. 69 pitches, 47 strikes.

The Reds took a 2-0 lead on Ken Griffey Jr.'s two-out, two-run single in the sixth.

Volquez lowered his spring ERA to 3.46. Most impressive: 19 Ks and 3 walks in the 13 innings.

He retired 11 of the first 12 he faced -- five by strikeout. His change-up was fooling guys big time.

He went to a 3-ball count on Jimmy Rollins before striking him out to start the game. Volquez wouldn't go to a 3-ball count until facing Ryan Howard with two outs in the fourth. Howard ended up singling. Jayson Werth followed with a single, but Volquez struck out Geoff Jenkins for his sixth strikeout to leave them runners stranded.

Volquez threw 10 pitches in the 1-2-3, 2-strikeout second, eight of which were strikes.

Volquez was at his best in the fifth. He got a routine groundball on the first pitch. But Brandon Phillips booted it. He walked the next hitter. But he got out of it. Brett Myers popped up trying to bunt. Rollins hit into a fielder's choice and Shane Victorino grounded out.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2008/03/reds-0-phillies-0-after-3-12.asp

Matt700wlw
03-16-2008, 04:34 PM
He razzled 'em, dazzled 'em, and made them look pretty foolish.

That's nice to say :)

OnBaseMachine
03-16-2008, 04:38 PM
More of the same but with some quotes from Valentin and Volquez.

Volquez mows ‘em down

By Hal McCoy | Sunday, March 16, 2008, 09:24 AM
Latest comment

Edinson Volquez wasn’t content to shut out the Philadelphia Phillies for five innings on three hits on a day with humidity so thick you could bite it and chew it.

After displaying another dazzling imitating of Pedro Martinez, he did his Lance Armstrong act, riding a bicycle at full-pedal for another 30 minutes.

Volquez possesses four pitches, “All of of which he uses at all time and isn’t afraid to throw to anybody at any time,” said catcher Javier Valentin. “But his changeup is his best.”

Indeed, in the first inning Volquez struck out National League Most Valuable Player Jimmy Rollins on a changeup to open the game, then struck out Ryan Howard on a changeup to end the inning.

“When I signed, I was afraid to throw the changeup,” said Volquez. “I knew the grip, knew how to hold it, but I was scared. I wanted to throw as hard as I could. I thought if I threw soft, they’d hit. I’m older and wiser now.”

And much better. In four appearances this spring, he has pitched 13 innings, giving up five runs, 15 hits, three walks and struck out 19. He fanned six Phillies and swalked one in five innings Sunday, throwing 69 pitches, 47 for strikes.

Can you spell r-o-t-a-t-i-o-n?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

OnBaseMachine
03-16-2008, 05:32 PM
Dusty has strong words on Volquez, Cueto

I asked Dusty Baker after the game the obvious question:

Are Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto separating themselves from the rest of pitchers competing for the rotation?

"You want me to say it or are you going to say," Baker said. "They're pitching like they belong along side (Aaron) Harang and (Bronson) Arroyo in the rotation. They're dealing. They came in ready to pitch. They played Winter Ball so they're ahead, not so much with velocity but with command. That's what you need. They're pounding the strike zone. If you walk people, you have no chance. If you get behind people, you have little chance.

"We need them."

There you have it: If season started today, the rotation would be Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Volquez and probably Josh Fogg.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

Highlifeman21
03-16-2008, 05:41 PM
I don't care the order, but my 5 would be Harang, Arroyo, Belisle, Volquez and Cueto.

Aronchis
03-16-2008, 05:42 PM
. They came in ready to pitch. They played Winter Ball so they're ahead, not so much with velocity but with command. That's what you need. They're pounding the strike zone. If you walk people, you have no chance. If you get behind people, you have little chance.

"We need them."



http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

Big quote by Dusty. I think this explains alot. For a guy like Cueto, he may be gassed by June if not before. Especially if Dusty does his "mojo".

membengal
03-16-2008, 05:44 PM
Have to hope that Baker really did learn something from the Prior/Woods days. Have to hope that, in any event, there are directives from WK mandating certain parameters for Volquez and Cueto in terms of usage and pitch count.

That said, I am pretty pumped at the notion of having those two in the rotation. It's a far cry from Dave Williams/Jimmy Anderson/etc./etc./etc. anyway.

mth123
03-16-2008, 05:53 PM
Have to hope that Baker really did learn something from the Prior/Woods days. Have to hope that, in any event, there are directives from WK mandating certain parameters for Volquez and Cueto in terms of usage and pitch count.

That said, I am pretty pumped at the notion of having those two in the rotation. It's a far cry from Dave Williams/Jimmy Anderson/etc./etc./etc. anyway.

I'm excited too and these arms are obviously building blocks, but the point about them playing winter ball and being ahead of the competition has some validity. This dominance is likely a spring mirage, but they could still both be effective in a league average or a little better kind of way.

membengal
03-16-2008, 06:01 PM
Um, league average? I would turn cartwheels if the Reds could get league average behind Arroyo and Harang. And then dance a jig.

My expectations are certainly not a mirror of what they have turned in this spring, just an aching hope that they can provide stability, competence, and occasional stretches of excellence for the back part of the pitching staff.

mth123
03-16-2008, 06:05 PM
Um, league average? I would turn cartwheels if the Reds could get league average behind Arroyo and Harang. And then dance a jig.

My expectations are certainly not a mirror of what they have turned in this spring, just an aching hope that they can provide stability, competence, and occasional stretches of excellence for the back part of the pitching staff.

We're on the same page.

RedsManRick
03-16-2008, 06:07 PM
If you walk people, you have no chance. If you get behind people, you have little chance.

How can Dusty say this and then fail to appreciate it when his own players do it offensively? Seems that walks and deep counts are a failure of the pitcher, not a success of the hitter to Dusty. Interesting.

mth123
03-16-2008, 06:19 PM
How can Dusty say this and then fail to appreciate it when his own players do it offensively? Seems that walks and deep counts are a failure of the pitcher, not a success of the hitter to Dusty. Interesting.

I'm not sure what Dusty's thinking is wrong as much as maybe he is a little less articulate then we'd like when he talks about it. I always try to remember that these guys are ballplayers (or ex-ballplayers) and not public speakers, so I don't get too bent out of shape about the soundbites which usually lack context and may suffer from poor articulation skill.

My understanding of hitting is basically:

1. Wait for your pitch.
2. When it comes, jump all over it because you may not get it again.
3. Protect the plate with 2 strikes.

My suspicion is that Dusty's comments are more about being more aggressive in reference to steps 2 and 3 which is ok in my book. If he's talking about altering step one, then its a problem. But looking at Dusty's playing career with about a 10% walk rate, I find it hard to assume that he is saying that.

OnBaseMachine
03-16-2008, 06:24 PM
Big quote by Dusty. I think this explains alot. For a guy like Cueto, he may be gassed by June if not before. Especially if Dusty does his "mojo".

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Give it up and stop with your agenda driven posts.

RedsManRick
03-16-2008, 06:25 PM
I think you might be right, mth. I'm constantly wondering how much of Dusty is actual philosophy and how much is just imprecise phrasing.

When it comes to your 3 step approach, one BIG question I have is whether or not he appreciates the difference between what "your pitch" means to say, Adam Dunn, compared to your average contact hitter, or a particularly good one like Jeff Keppinger.

My understanding is that part of Dunn's problem is simply an inability to make good contact with as many pitches as well other players can. If he's letting "his pitches" go, then I agree he should be more aggressive in swinging at them, but I wonder how many times he's letting strikes go because if even he could make contact, it wouldn't be hard contact.

Matt700wlw
03-16-2008, 06:27 PM
For the record, Wood and Prior were injuries in progress....Dusty or no Dusty - all he was trying to do was win a pennant.

Redhook
03-16-2008, 06:40 PM
Big quote by Dusty. I think this explains alot. For a guy like Cueto, he may be gassed by June if not before. Especially if Dusty does his "mojo".

Pretty bad post there. What would you do with Cueto? Sit him on the bench for a year to save his arm?

Caveat Emperor
03-16-2008, 06:53 PM
Pretty bad post there. What would you do with Cueto? Sit him on the bench for a year to save his arm?

I think it's a fair point -- Cueto has put a lot of mileage on his arm in the past 365 days.

At what point does that catch up with him, and at what point does he start risking his long-term (or even short term) health by continuing to pitch? Even if health doesn't become an issue, reduction in velocity could really hurt a smaller pitcher like Cueto.

Will M
03-16-2008, 06:56 PM
I'm not sure what Dusty's thinking is wrong as much as maybe he is a little less articulate then we'd like when he talks about it. I always try to remember that these guys are ballplayers (or ex-ballplayers) and not public speakers, so I don't get too bent out of shape about the soundbites which usually lack context and may suffer from poor articulation skill.

My understanding of hitting is basically:

1. Wait for your pitch.
2. When it comes, jump all over it because you may not get it again.
3. Protect the plate with 2 strikes.

My suspicion is that Dusty's comments are more about being more aggressive in reference to steps 2 and 3 which is ok in my book. If he's talking about altering step one, then its a problem. But looking at Dusty's playing career with about a 10% walk rate, I find it hard to assume that he is saying that.


I think you might be right, mth. I'm constantly wondering how much of Dusty is actual philosophy and how much is just imprecise phrasing.

When it comes to your 3 step approach, one BIG question I have is whether or not he appreciates the difference between what "your pitch" means to say, Adam Dunn, compared to your average contact hitter, or a particularly good one like Jeff Keppinger.

My understanding is that part of Dunn's problem is simply an inability to make good contact with as many pitches as well other players can. If he's letting "his pitches" go, then I agree he should be more aggressive in swinging at them, but I wonder how many times he's letting strikes go because if even he could make contact, it wouldn't be hard contact.

This is 'old school'. I remember Pete Rose hitting like this. Early in the count look for a certain pitch in a certain spot. If it is there then crush it. Obviously later in the count you have to be more selective. If a basher like Dunn lets a 2-0 fastball down the heart of the plate go by him with guys on base then you have to say "what the heck are you doing?". I know Mike Schmidt last year criticized some of the modern players approach at the plate ( not Dunn specifically ) and I think he was trying to make this point.

RedsManRick
03-16-2008, 07:01 PM
While I agree they were on the path to injury already, the Prior/Wood situation is interesting. If the Reds are in a dead heat down the stretch for the division, does he ask Cueto/Volquez to give another inning after 110 pitches in start number 32 in September?

How many years of somebody's future do you put at risk for the game at hand? If Dusty was told "for every pitch beyond the first 100 Cueto throws today, he loses 20 off the end of his career", would Dusty still push him so hard?

What really frustrates me about the whole conversation is that those extra pitches usually aren't that great of quality anyways. Is the step down from pitches 101+ from your starter really that much worse than pitches 1-20 from your middle reliever? Is that difference really worth the risk?

And who's to say that Prior might not have had a few more good years before falling apart? Who's to say that they wouldn't have gotten more out of him in 2004? Nearly all pitchers get injured eventually -- it's just a manner of when and how. You are always managing that pitchers health.

RedsManRick
03-16-2008, 07:03 PM
This is 'old school'. I remember Pete Rose hitting like this. Early in the count look for a certain pitch in a certain spot. If it is there then crush it. Obviously later in the count you have to be more selective. If a basher like Dunn lets a 2-0 fastball down the heart of the plate go by him with guys on base then you have to say "what the heck are you doing?". I know Mike Schmidt last year criticized some of the modern players approach at the plate ( not Dunn specifically ) and I think he was trying to make this point.

And if it's 1-0 with a guy on first and there's a pitch on the outside corner that you can maybe flip in to LF (while risking a weak grounder to 3B), should you take the strike or hold out for something you can yank? It's definitely shades of gray.

Unless a weak hit scores the tying or go-ahead run, or unless there's two strikes, I'd want Dunn managing the at bat to maximize the chance he can do some real damage -- or get on base and let the next guy do the damage. That's what's interesting to me about Dusty's "next guy up" comment. Given Dunn's ability to work a walk, shouldn't he be hitting somewhere that takes advantage of both his ability to move guys around the bases AND set it up for the next guy? Given that Phillips can only do the former well, drop him in to a spot where he'll hit with guys on base, but his low OBP won't hurt as much. Seems like Dusty gets the assumptions right and just comes to the wrong conclusions. I'd love to see a reporter challenge him on those comments in a respectful way -- see what he says.

Caveat Emperor
03-16-2008, 07:08 PM
While I agree they were on the path to injury already, the Prior/Wood situation is interesting. If the Reds are in a dead heat down the stretch for the division, does he ask Cueto/Volquez to give another inning after 110 pitches in start number 32 in September?

And, for that matter, does Krivsky (on the last year of his deal, with Jocketty looking over his shoulder) ever step in to say anything?

Aronchis
03-16-2008, 09:05 PM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Give it up and stop with your agenda driven posts.

Disagree. After 1 outing, Cueto and Volquez already were already coming into mid-season form. Dusty just told us why.

membengal
03-16-2008, 09:14 PM
I think Cueto threw a grand total of 19 innings of winter league ball. THAT's why he's been dominating? Seriously? 19 innings? I mean, seriously?

reds44
03-16-2008, 09:17 PM
I think Cueto threw a grand total of 19 innings of winter league ball. THAT's why he's been dominating? Seriously? 19 innings? I mean, seriously?
Those 19 innings are going to kill his arm by July, no doubt.

reds44
03-16-2008, 09:24 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080316&content_id=2430581&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin



Volquez making Reds believers

SARASOTA, Fla. -- For those of you wondering why the Reds were willing to trade Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez, the answer was on display at Ed Smith Stadium on Sunday afternoon.
"You just saw why we got him," Reds catcher Javier Valentin said. "He showed what people expect to see of him."

Matched against Philadelphia's Brett Myers and facing a lineup that included Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley and Ryan Howard, Volquez pitched five scoreless innings.

The right-hander struck out six to boost his spring total to 19 -- more than any pitcher in the Grapefruit or Cactus Leagues through Sunday's early games. He's racked up that impressive total in just 13 innings. Volquez gave up just three hits, all singles, and lowered his ERA to 3.46. He has walked only three batters.

Spring Training results can be misleading, but there's no denying Volquez has a Major League repertoire.

Volquez got Rollins, the reigning National League Most Valuable Player, to chase a changeup for strike three in the first. Moments later he fanned Howard, the 2006 NL MVP, on another changeup.

"That changeup is his best pitch," Valentin said. "He had it today. He's got four pitches he can throw anytime [and] he's not afraid to use them."

Volquez is making a serious bid for a spot in the Reds rotation. If the 24-year-old Dominican can keep throwing his changeup, fastball, curveball and slider for strikes with this frequency, the Reds may have something special. And if Monday's scheduled starter, Johnny Cueto, keeps wowing scouts, Reds staff and everyone else, the Reds might be ready to make some noise in the NL Central.

Such notions are premature for now. Any Rangers fan will tell you Volquez has shown flashes of brilliance before, only to fall on hard times when control problems undermined his efforts.

The kid says this time is different.

"Not like this," he said when asked about those teasing performances in Texas. "I feel more comfortable now, [I'm] throwing more strikes. That's what I was looking for, throwing more strikes and being consistent in the zone."

There's one other difference, according to Volquez.

"I'm controlling my emotions, too," he said, then laughed, "I'm getting older, man!"

Volquez has been getting tips on pitching mechanics from Reds instructor Mario Soto.

Soto, you might recall, had a changeup second to none, one that helped the right-hander fan 1,449 batters in 297 games back in the '80s.

Having a great changeup and knowing how to use it effectively don't always go hand in hand. But Volquez seems to be learning quickly. For example, he figured Howard would be sitting on his changeup the second time up with two strikes so he went with the fastball instead.

"I know he was looking for a changeup, that's what the good hitters do," Volquez said.

Howard, late on the fastball, didn't get a great swing, but managed to get enough of the ball to drop a base hit to center. Volquez would later strike out Geoff Jenkins swinging to end the inning.

The Reds might miss Hamilton, himself having a fine spring for the Rangers, but it is clear Volquez can pitch.

For 2008 the only question is where. Will it be in Cincinnati, or the Minor Leagues?

These two are going to be really, really fun to watch this year.

Tom Servo
03-16-2008, 09:28 PM
"That changeup is his best pitch," Valentin said. "He had it today. He's got four pitches he can throw anytime [and] he's not afraid to use them."

Javy, what happened to "bullpen or whatever"?

Cyclone792
03-16-2008, 09:30 PM
These two are going to be really, really fun to watch this year.

The most telling part of that statement is the fact that "these two" doesn't include one Ball Four Bailey.

But yes, you're right. Volquez and Cueto are the two best young pitchers in the Reds system, and they sure will be fun as heck to watch this season.

Caveat Emperor
03-16-2008, 09:47 PM
The most telling part of that statement is the fact that "these two" doesn't include one Ball Four Bailey.

Bailey's problem seems to be in his head.

If that is truly the case, then I can't think of a better "pull it out of there" message than him seeing two other prospects blow by him on the depth chart.

I think "BB" Bailey will be ready to go by late-June and, if that's the case, will be in prime position to give this team a fresh shot in the arm when it might need it most.

M2
03-16-2008, 10:21 PM
Bailey's problem seems to be in his head.

I'm not so sure about that. He's 21. He needs to add polish to all of his pitches, develop more consistent mechanics, discover how best to deploy his arsenal and (especially) get stronger.

He's a boy. Not being a man or a hyperprodigy isn't in his head, it's a fact of life.

http://www.tvacres.com/images/garrett_facts.jpg

coachw513
03-16-2008, 10:29 PM
Already have the VCR set for 1 PM tomorrow afternoon to see Cueto...does anyone know if the rotation has been set through next Saturday against the Astros???...I'm able to go see them if Cueto's turn is up again (shouldn't it be???)...

Have passionately rooted for this team for 35+ years...I have never been more excited about young pitching for this team as I am now...I remember liking Zachary and Acala...LaCoss and Pastore...Soto and Berenyi...Rijo and Browning...you get the picture...time will tell but when all of us recognize that the dearth of quality arms has doomed this franchise for this decade, it's exciting to read and see the potential...of course Dusty scares the bee-jeezees out of me, but that's for discussion down the road...

Aronchis
03-16-2008, 11:30 PM
I think Cueto threw a grand total of 19 innings of winter league ball. THAT's why he's been dominating? Seriously? 19 innings? I mean, seriously?

Yep, seriously. That 19I's had Cueto more tuned up for the season. After one tuneup outing, he was ready to go. Volquez has gotten stronger each start as well. Dusty meant what he said. Homer is taking a long time to get ready and get going. Not unexpected from him and the Reds don't see to be a bit surprised.

That harder use earlier in the year, however, can lead to fatigue quicker. It will be interesting if Cueto can be successfull in the 5th/6th innings.

Volquez will be 25 this year. He can handle Dusty's "ways". Cueto IMO can't.

Reds Nd2
03-16-2008, 11:32 PM
there is no reason to be more worried about Volquez's innings than Cueto's. Volquez threw 178.2 innings last year and he is also two and a half years older...

Maybe, but Volquez pitched 187.1 innings in 2007...

reds44
03-16-2008, 11:33 PM
Yep, seriously. That 19I's had Cueto more tuned up for the season. After one tuneup outing, he was ready to go. Volquez has gotten stronger each start as well. Dusty meant what he said. Homer is taking a long time to get ready and get going. Not unexpected from him and the Reds don't see to be a bit surprised.

That harder use earlier in the year, however, can lead to fatigue quicker. It will be interesting if Cueto can be successfull in the 5th/6th innings.
So we've gone from "Cueto must be in the bullpen" to "we'll see how he does in the 5th/6th innings." Keep back peddling.

Aronchis
03-16-2008, 11:35 PM
So we've gone from "Cueto must be in the bullpen" to "we'll see how he does in the 5th/6th innings." Keep back peddling.

What back peddling? I don't think he will succeed in the 5th/6th inning and would rather have him in the pen. That is what I meant I want to see it, wow!!!

Reds Nd2
03-16-2008, 11:36 PM
How can Dusty say this and then fail to appreciate it when his own players do it offensively? Seems that walks and deep counts are a failure of the pitcher, not a success of the hitter to Dusty. Interesting.

Dusty being Dusty?

Boss-Hog
03-16-2008, 11:36 PM
Please take the personal stuff off the board.

M2
03-17-2008, 12:14 AM
I don't think he will succeed in the 5th/6th inning and would rather have him in the pen.

Except that's based on air. What would keep him from being able to pitch in the 5th or 6th inning?

Does he not have a deep enough arsenal? Why no, he's got three plus pitches. In fact, plus might be an understatement. He's got a mix of pitches capable of tying an opposing lineup into knots no matter how many times they see him.

Does he throw too many pitches in the early innings? No, just the opposite. He keeps the pitch count low and that will keep him fresh for later innings.

Has he shown difficulty throwing innings to date? No, he's been quite good in innings 5, 6 and 7.

About the only thing your speculation has going for it is he's a little fella.

Caveat Emperor
03-17-2008, 12:25 AM
Does he throw too many pitches in the early innings? No, just the opposite. He keeps the pitch count low and that will keep him fresh for later innings.

And, we can only hope, protect him from Dustification™.

Spitball
03-17-2008, 12:28 AM
Does he throw too many pitches in the early innings? No, just the opposite. He keeps the pitch count low and that will keep him fresh for later innings.


And that is an important key to any discussion involving Cueto, or any other starter for that matter, pitching deep enough into ball games. The kid even had to throw extra in the bullpen after a recent appearance just to reach his pitch quota.

Cedric
03-17-2008, 01:26 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Give it up and stop with your agenda driven posts.

We all have agendas based on our own personal opinions formed on certain players. Aronchis makes points that I OFTEN disagree with. That doesn't mean he's not allowed to debate those points without having those opinions dismissed as "agenda driven". You are in turn completely disrespecting his view because you aren't arguing it's merit and instead are arguing against something we all have, personal biases.

I'm not a moderator but I would be sad to see opinions censored on this site because we all can't at least respect others views and take them at face value. This reminds me of the posters that make the idiotic claim that some of us want Homer Bailey to fail because we earlier thought he was rushed. It's not what the Old Red Guard was created for. Just my two cents on why we have this exclusive board.

Boss-Hog
03-17-2008, 08:00 AM
We all have agendas based on our own personal opinions formed on certain players. Aronchis makes points that I OFTEN disagree with. That doesn't mean he's not allowed to debate those points without having those opinions dismissed as "agenda driven". You are in turn completely disrespecting his view because you aren't arguing it's merit and instead are arguing against something we all have, personal biases.

I'm not a moderator but I would be sad to see opinions censored on this site because we all can't at least respect others views and take them at face value. This reminds me of the posters that make the idiotic claim that some of us want Homer Bailey to fail because we earlier thought he was rushed. It's not what the Old Red Guard was created for. Just my two cents on why we have this exclusive board.
Well said.

OnBaseMachine
03-17-2008, 10:35 AM
We all have agendas based on our own personal opinions formed on certain players. Aronchis makes points that I OFTEN disagree with. That doesn't mean he's not allowed to debate those points without having those opinions dismissed as "agenda driven". You are in turn completely disrespecting his view because you aren't arguing it's merit and instead are arguing against something we all have, personal biases.

I'm not a moderator but I would be sad to see opinions censored on this site because we all can't at least respect others views and take them at face value. This reminds me of the posters that make the idiotic claim that some of us want Homer Bailey to fail because we earlier thought he was rushed. It's not what the Old Red Guard was created for. Just my two cents on why we have this exclusive board.

I may have a went a little overboard with my last post but if go back and check out said posters last few posts on Cueto then you will probably see he has just a little bias against Johnny Cueto. I'm not the only one who has noticed this either or even called him out for it, though I shouldn't have did that.