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View Full Version : Another "Unlucky" day for Belisle...



BLEEDS
03-14-2008, 06:22 PM
His line against the Yanks:

3 IP, 8 hits, 7 ER, 2 BB, 1 K

A lot of 2-out rallys, and "non-clutch" pitching.

His BABIP doesn't look good. Maybe he should stop giving up so many "BIP". Just my opinion...

#3 starter material. Really? REALLY?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfanmia
03-14-2008, 06:30 PM
His line against the Yanks:

3 IP, 8 hits, 7 ER, 2 BB, 1 K

A lot of 2-out rallys, and "non-clutch" pitching.

His BABIP doesn't look good. Maybe he should stop giving up so many "BIP". Just my opinion...

#3 starter material. Really? REALLY?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I am with you -BLEEDS. In my opinion if he is in the rotation we are in trouble.

jmac
03-14-2008, 06:45 PM
I have said all off season Belisle should not be "given" a spot without earning it in ST following a 5+ ERA.
It is clear to me, right now he should be competing for the fifth spot and probably trailing at that.

GoReds33
03-14-2008, 06:52 PM
Unlucky? How many times do we need to hear that? At some point you have to realize that the kid isn't going to be a below 3.5 ERA guy. I agree that he should be competing for the the five spot. At this point, I'd rather give the 3 and 4 to Volquez and Cueto.

CRedsLarkin11
03-14-2008, 07:00 PM
I'm just not big on Belisle either, in no way should he have an automatic slot in the rotation. We'll find out here in a couple of weeks which direction the organization is going in. Affeldt has been horrendous, I just hope he can salvage something to contribute in the pen. There is no way he should be starting. Cueto and Volquez have shown promise, so do they get in? We'll see. All you have to do is look at the potential rotation to see why this team is at least another year away... Fogg may be the #3 starter

captainmorgan07
03-14-2008, 07:21 PM
The way belisle is pitching so far this spring he has to be moved to the pen. If one of the young guys struggles than you can have belisle slide into that slot. Belisle was great when we had him in the bullpen a few years ago. Right now he's just giving up to many hits for my likeing. You can only be unlucky so many times and this sure wasn't one of um.

Rocket_Fuel
03-14-2008, 08:18 PM
I agree with you guys, I was never sold on Belisle. I thought he would be a decent addition to the bullpen. It was silly for some people in the Reds organization to basically appoint him a rotation staple and #3 pitcher, though they never said it officially. Hopefully Dusty won't buy into that.

redsupport
03-14-2008, 09:28 PM
he is a great #7 starter

LexingtonLegend
03-14-2008, 10:00 PM
maybe Belisle and Homer can have lockers next to each other in Louisville

Kennesaw Mt.
03-14-2008, 10:57 PM
Anyone have the lines on Cueto and Volquez thus far in Spring training? I had heard where each one had a tremendous outing but haven't heard anything more. Belisle is too unpredictable and it appears that Homer is becoming too predictable for opposing hitters. Affeldt should remain in the pen.

JBChance
03-14-2008, 11:04 PM
Fogg may be the #3 starter

:scared:

Kennesaw Mt.
03-14-2008, 11:06 PM
Fogg did have a good outing. I agree .... a solid #3 or maybe our #2. Arroyo hasn't earned the #2 spot in my opinion.

JBChance
03-14-2008, 11:29 PM
Arroyo hasn't earned the #2 spot in my opinion.

:rolleyes:

What does he have to do? He has given up a whopping 3 hits in 6 frames (era 1.50) while passing out zero walks and fanning 3. Not too shabby. He hasn't pitched enough (not even close) for this judgement to be levied. Neither of them have thrown enough for that.

Fogg has given out 4 free passes and 11 hits in 13 innings. He has been stingy with the runs, but lets take it easy. He's a league average pitcher, IMHO. That may be good enough for #5 or #4, but our number two pitcher :eek:

HalMorrisRules
03-14-2008, 11:45 PM
I wonder where all these people are?

How good is Matt Belisle? (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64497)

durl
03-14-2008, 11:56 PM
I was hoping Belisle would have a better Spring, but Cueto and Volquez have done a good job of showing they could definitely help the rotation more. It's going to be interesting to see who makes the rotation come opening day.

GoReds33
03-15-2008, 12:58 AM
I wonder where all these people are?

How good is Matt Belisle? (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64497)When I saw the "future ace" option listed at the top, I just knew that had to be a really old thread. How could somebody vote future ace?

StrikeIndicator
03-15-2008, 10:08 AM
The way belisle is pitching so far this spring he has to be moved to the pen..

why do so many folks think that since he (on any of the other potential starters) can't seem to get hitters out and gives up runs in the beginning of a game that he will do any better coming in at the end when the game is really on the line? I just don't understand that logic. It is not as if he is pacing himself so he can go 9 in ST. He knows he is only going to pitch a couple of inning now, so go out and show your best stuff.


Belisle was great when we had him in the bullpen a few years ago. Right now he's just giving up to many hits for my likeing. .

I had this absolutely wonderful pencil a few years ago, it worked great, loved it, used it all the time, it was my ace pencil,.............now it is so .....

TheBigLebowski
03-15-2008, 01:06 PM
It is Spring Training - I don't think we should base our opinion on what Belisle is strictly on a couple of bad ST outings. We know what he is - an average 4-5 starter. He's never going to be a candidate for any Cy Youngs but he's capable of getting hitters out and keeping an ERA of about 4.

JBChance
03-15-2008, 01:32 PM
Surely it is early to throw in the towel on him. You would think he SHOULD pitch better than Fogg with the "stuff" he purportedly has.

I think he had a lot of press/ talk early on, before spring training began (Him building on last year, something to prove, being a lock for the rotation, etc.) He hasn't lived up to that hype, yet, but it is exceedingly early.

He certainly hasn't been making a case so far, though.

BLEEDS
03-15-2008, 02:14 PM
It is Spring Training - I don't think we should base our opinion on what Belisle is strictly on a couple of bad ST outings. We know what he is - an average 4-5 starter. He's never going to be a candidate for any Cy Youngs but he's capable of getting hitters out and keeping an ERA of about 4.

What in the world have you ever seen that would give you that indication?

That's like me saying Juan Castro is capable of keeping a BA of around .350

Until his WHIP can get/stay under 1.4, he's not going to get anywhere NEAR 5.0, let alone 4.0.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

mlbfan30
03-15-2008, 02:35 PM
I'll make this point....

Every time Belisle and Fogg pitched, it's been on the same day.
And until this last game, Belisle has pitched 1st, followed by Fogg. That basically means Belisle faces the real MLB players, while Fogg faces Minor League Players. It does make a difference.
And this last game, Fogg faced Pittsburg, and Belisle faced NYY. I'm pretty sure there's a huge difference in the talant of those two lineups.

So Belisle has consistently had to face much much better hitters. This is an example as to why Spring Training Stats don't matter.

HalMorrisRules
03-15-2008, 03:00 PM
So Belisle has consistently had to face much much better hitters. This is an example as to why Spring Training Stats don't matter.

And when you look at the numbers that do count, real stats against "real major leaguers" from last season, he was awful. Look at his stats the last 4 months of the season. That is an example why regular season stats do matter.


Belisle's 2007 stats month by month (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=7240&year=2007)

jmac
03-15-2008, 04:29 PM
I'll make this point....

Every time Belisle and Fogg pitched, it's been on the same day.
And until this last game, Belisle has pitched 1st, followed by Fogg. That basically means Belisle faces the real MLB players, while Fogg faces Minor League Players. It does make a difference.
And this last game, Fogg faced Pittsburg, and Belisle faced NYY. I'm pretty sure there's a huge difference in the talant of those two lineups.

So Belisle has consistently had to face much much better hitters. This is an example as to why Spring Training Stats don't matter.
Your points may be valid if discussing youngsters facing big league guys for the first time.
However as some have said, Belisle had a 5 + ERA last season so this is only a continuation. Fogg/Belisle are similar and I expect similar #'s from both.
I am not saying that Belisle is a bad pitcher but only that I do not think he will be the pitcher some feel.

Va Red Fan
03-15-2008, 04:51 PM
Belisle is not a lock and from what happened today with Homer, I'm guessing he can rent an apartment in Louisville.

I like Belisle, but I think Fogg may have the upper hand in a head-to-head battle for a rotation spot. Beliesle still has some "future" hopeful status while Fogg is a nine season vet. Fogg has a .500 ML record and can run out there every fifth day and give us consistency while you may get a dynamic day one turn followed by two horrible starts for Belisle. I'll take 6-7 innings, 4.00 era from Fogg over a guy who is always a wild card.

Also, all you Homer is savior posters on RedsZone, that is not helping the situation. Homer may be a great pitcher, but I think he has proven this spring that he is not there yet. Let him spend a year at AAA and get it all together. If he begin and even stays at Louisville, that may not be a bad thing for the long term. We have other arms.