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View Full Version : If Corey Patterson is the OD starting centerfielder-It will be a crying shame!



redsfan1966
03-16-2008, 01:42 PM
Just heard Ken Broo on WLW just announce what probably will be the starting opening lineup--he had Patterson in CF over Bruce...that is nothing less of a crying shame and in my opinion, an obvious sign of of Dusty's preference of veterans (some unproven) over young talent. I will be pumped nonetheless about being there on Opening Day, but will be disappointed if this is the way the OF turns out. We dumped Josh Hamilton so Bruce can take the spot--now lets make it happen! Sorry that I dont have any indepth numbers I crunched to prove my point-just a gut feeling I have. :D

bubbachunk
03-16-2008, 02:00 PM
Let me grab some tissues for you m8 because i just don't trust dusty to put bruce in.

redsfan1966
03-16-2008, 02:03 PM
thank you, bubba..bless you

757690
03-16-2008, 02:21 PM
There are two very good reason why Bruce will start the season in AAA.
1. He has played 66 total games above single A, and it would be best for his development to start in AAAn then come up a month or two into the season. It takes a truck load o pressure off of him. Being the opening day cf and leadoff hitter is an extremely high pressure situation for a 20 year old. Remember last year, it took aawhile for Hamilton to crack the lineup.

2. Starting him in AAA delays his free agent clock. A month or two of Patterson/hopper in cf is worth keeping Bruce for another year.

LexingtonLegend
03-16-2008, 02:58 PM
In case you haven't noticed, Patterson has been burning it up since he started playing spring training games. I don't by any means think that he can bat this well during the season, but he is proving that he can get on base, which is something we've been lacking in a leadoff hitter in the past few years. He's also a guy that could possibly steal 30-50 bases. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Bruce, i'm just stating my opinion that having Patterson in CF to start the year isn't the worst thing that could happen to this team.... Having Majewski on the opening day roster would probably be, but that's a whole nother thread

redsfan1966
03-16-2008, 02:59 PM
Valid points, 757690--but I am sick of hearing about the clock--if a player is ready, play him now!

jmac
03-16-2008, 04:56 PM
There are two very good reason why Bruce will start the season in AAA.
1. He has played 66 total games above single A, and it would be best for his development to start in AAAn then come up a month or two into the season. It takes a truck load o pressure off of him. Being the opening day cf and leadoff hitter is an extremely high pressure situation for a 20 year old. Remember last year, it took aawhile for Hamilton to crack the lineup.

2. Starting him in AAA delays his free agent clock. A month or two of Patterson/hopper in cf is worth keeping Bruce for another year.
Plus as some have said, Bruce hasnt exactly tore the cover off the ball this ST.
He is only hitting 270 right now so let's not put too much pressure on him too soon.

GoReds33
03-16-2008, 05:10 PM
Listen, Bruce will be in the minors for about two months. It's a money thing, not an experience thing, even if that's what the Reds say. If he stays down for a couple years, that makes it so he won't be declared as a "super two" making him eligible for arbitration in 2 years.

Casey
03-16-2008, 05:38 PM
Patterson was brought aboard to play center until Bruce is ready to go, that was obvious. He's still a very young guy, with very little Big League experience. When he's ready, he'll be out there patrolling center for a very long time...there's no need to rush him up.

JWP
03-16-2008, 07:13 PM
I don't think that Patterson will be starting in CF beyond the 1st of June. Nonetheless, I think Patterson is a pretty valuable player coming off the bench to be used as a pinch hitter or a pinch runner. The Reds have been really lackluster in the stolen base department over the past couple of years, and I fully expect Patterson to help in the area.

Va Red Fan
03-16-2008, 07:56 PM
Patterson in CF is not a bad thing and if it happens it is not necessarily Dusty playing a vet over a rookie. It could well be a very in tune manager making sure his "wonderboy" doesn't burst before he gets his legit chance. Dust has been here and knows the ropes. I think he will handle Bruce and Bailey correctly and really doesn't need our input. Plus, Patterson is not a bad option. He can do all that is needed.

BLEEDS
03-16-2008, 08:00 PM
Already another thread on this, started by me, but the point remains.

Patterson will be the starting CF-er, and hit lead-off. Get used to it.

Takes longer for some, but "Resistance is Futile".

PEACE

-BLEEDS

kaldaniels
03-16-2008, 08:08 PM
Valid points, 757690--but I am sick of hearing about the clock--if a player is ready, play him now!

What makes it a slam dunk case that he is "ready". Limited ABs above A. So-so spring. Why jet him up to the bigs if he could use a little seasoning. If you can show that he is ready beyond a doubt...I have no debate with you.

jlb1705
03-16-2008, 09:27 PM
Sign me up for an additional season of Jay Bruce as he enters his prime as opposed to two months on the front end of his ML career where he likely wouldn't be putting the Reds over the top.

GoReds33
03-16-2008, 09:36 PM
I think we all need to take a step back for awhile. The Reds will be a great team in two-three years, if they keep everybody together. If we can keep Bruce long enough so that we have a contending team for years to come, I don't care if it means seeing less of him this year.

AmarilloRed
03-16-2008, 10:28 PM
Already another thread on this, started by me, but the point remains.

Patterson will be the starting CF-er, and hit lead-off. Get used to it.

Takes longer for some, but "Resistance is Futile".

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I will continue to resist, until and unless he makes the 25 man roster. After that, Hopper/ Freel/Bruce has an equal chance to start in center field He has hit better in spring training than I expected, however. For the record, Bruce is still in camp and has an equal chance to be the Opening Day center fielder.

fugowitribe
03-16-2008, 11:01 PM
Corey Patterson isn't that bad! The only bad thing about this situation is that We will not see Bruce on Opening Day, but IMO I think we are a better lineup with Patterson in CF. The leadoff spot is solved, and he is no worse than Bruce with the glove.

IowaRed
03-17-2008, 10:15 AM
All you need to know is that Corey Patterson has a .298 career OBP

ChatterRed
03-17-2008, 10:23 AM
This team won't win the division with retread veterans that couldn't make it elsewhere.

The future is now. Play the future!

BLEEDS
03-17-2008, 11:28 AM
I will continue to resist, until and unless he makes the 25 man roster. After that, Hopper/ Freel/Bruce has an equal chance to start in center field He has hit better in spring training than I expected, however. For the record, Bruce is still in camp and has an equal chance to be the Opening Day center fielder.

What's this "For the record" BS?!?! You are freakin' DREAMING if you really believe that.

What "Record"? Yours?

"Equal Chance"? According to whom? You - with your head in the sand?

Watch the games, listen to the COACH, read the papers, the quotes, the media, etc... just about EVERYONE says that Patterson is going to be the starting CF-er.

You are hilarious. Funniest thing is you probabaly Actually Believe Yourself.:laugh:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Va Red Fan
03-17-2008, 05:43 PM
ChatterRed - As much as I hate to break it to you, the Reds are likely not going to win the division this year any way. I hope so and I root for them to have that chance, but its not likely to happen. Making a very competitive team this year and saving the young guys is not necessarily a bad thing,

HokieRed
03-17-2008, 06:53 PM
What do you see the outfield being on the great team of 2-3 years hence? Bruce and who--with Hamilton gone, Dunn unsigned, Griffey gone by then? I had hoped it would be Bruce, Hamilton, and Stubbs, but we won't see that now.

sweetsport06
03-17-2008, 10:25 PM
"I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, thatís their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fansí enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein. People play baseball. Numbers donít."[35]-Murray Chass

IowaRed
03-17-2008, 10:50 PM
"I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, thatís their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fansí enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein. People play baseball. Numbers donít."[35]-Murray Chass

not really sure what this is for but if you are calling OBP or agreeing with somebody who calls OBP a new-age stat you are about 24 years too late

jmac
03-17-2008, 11:30 PM
ChatterRed - As much as I hate to break it to you, the Reds are likely not going to win the division this year any way. I hope so and I root for them to have that chance, but its not likely to happen. Making a very competitive team this year and saving the young guys is not necessarily a bad thing,

I dont know if I would phrase it "not likely".
Mil/Chic look to be decent but not that good. Especially the Milw.
Stl has lots of pitching problems and the stros have Oswalt and ??
Just saying with the possible emergence of Volquez/Cueto, I think the reds have almost as good a chance as anyone in the central.

CWRed
03-17-2008, 11:39 PM
Patterson was good pickup. Unfortunately his past OBP causes me great pain not unlike a monkey or a talking baby on a sitcom. One of Dusty's main requirements for some reason is that his CF has to lead off and his SS has to bat 2nd (no, I don't know why...it just is the gospel according to Dusty). CP could be a huge surprise now that the pressure is off but that is a big if. I'd rather see him platoon with Hopper (I can't believe I just said that) and Freel until Bruce is ready. Then once they all have a combined OBP of .301 after a month, then Bruce gets the call. Or you would think. Or we could just go get Neifi Perez and trade Bruce! ;)

Ok I just had a terrifying but real thought...

Patterson
Gonzo
...ok after this it really doesn't matter

DannyB
03-18-2008, 07:28 AM
All you need to know is that Corey Patterson has a .298 career OBP

For 05, 06 and 07 Its like .256 in the leadoff spot:(

IowaRed
03-18-2008, 09:51 AM
For 05, 06 and 07 Its like .256 in the leadoff spot:(

I could have gone all day without seeing that , thanks :bang:

durl
03-18-2008, 10:53 AM
Didn't most people think acquiring Brandon Phillips was a bad idea at the time?

My first reaction to Patterson was like most: do we REALLY need another CF challenger? But the guy has really impressed in Spring Training, no doubt. To me, the priority is getting the best guys on the field for the regular season. If that means Patterson, so be it. Bruce may be our starting RF next season...and he'll STILL be a young kid next year.

BLEEDS
03-18-2008, 11:02 AM
Come on guys, he hasn't even made the 25 man roster yet!!

<insert sarcasm smiley here>

PEACE

-BLEEDS

UPRedsFan
03-18-2008, 11:09 AM
Here's a hopeful thought. Will Patterson's OBP increase if he's only playing against right handed pitching?

UPRedsFan
03-18-2008, 11:12 AM
Crud! I just answered my own question.

Patterson's career OPS against lefties is .344 and against righties it's .286!!!

IowaRed
03-18-2008, 11:20 AM
Here's a hopeful thought. Will Patterson's OBP increase if he's only playing against right handed pitching?

Career OBP splits

vs. RHP .306
vs. LHP .275

you tell me if he should be batting leadoff on ANY major league team?

UPRedsFan
03-18-2008, 01:12 PM
Crud! I just answered my own question.

Patterson's career OPS against lefties is .344 and against righties it's .286!!!

These numbers are from 2007 not career. For some reason he faired better against left handers last year.

Anyway he's only a good option as a pinch runner or late inning defense. It'll just bring Jay Bruce up from AAA that much quicker when Patterson cools off and is hitting .240 in April.

pdub2009
03-18-2008, 01:37 PM
These numbers are from 2007 not career. For some reason he faired better against left handers last year.

Anyway he's only a good option as a pinch runner or late inning defense. It'll just bring Jay Bruce up from AAA that much quicker when Patterson cools off and is hitting .240 in April.

I like the idea of Patterson at least being a platoon player on this team. If Freel is traded then him and Hopper can keep CF warm for Bruce (assuming Bruce is indeed headed to Louisville). I don't think Corey is a long term solution, but he does bring at least some leadoff abilities, and if plays poorly in April I'm sure Dusty will eventually step in and cut back his playing time. Even if Bruce does make the team I still want a player to platoon with him at first, I mean Bruce is supposed to ultimately be a RF for the Reds afterall and Dusty seems somewhat concerned about the Jay being a viable everyday centerfielder.

757690
03-18-2008, 04:41 PM
The main reason why patterson was brought in was that scouts said that he had improved his hitting approach in the second half of last year. Dusty said just that the other day.
I am down here in Sarasota and after seeing patterson in around a half a dozen games, I can say that it does look like he has better approach. It is definitely worth looking at him for a month in the regular season to see I he really has changed. If not, then bring up Bruce.

SMcGavin
03-18-2008, 04:45 PM
Didn't most people think acquiring Brandon Phillips was a bad idea at the time?


The Phillips pickup was made when we were starting Tony Womack at 2B I believe, so I don't think anyone was up in arms over it. Not to mention Patterson has a WAY longer track record than Phillips did when we picked him up. The man has 3000 major league ABs. He's almost 30 years old. His career OBP is .298. If Bruce isn't ready, then start him in AAA, but there's not a need for Patterson when we already have Hopper and Freel out there. I would a thousand times rather start Freel in CF than Patterson. Freel, in the worst year of his career last season, had a .308 OBP. His career OBP is .358. Freel is no superstar but he's shown over his career he can be an at least serviceable leadoff man.

durl
03-18-2008, 05:52 PM
The Phillips pickup was made when we were starting Tony Womack at 2B I believe, so I don't think anyone was up in arms over it. Not to mention Patterson has a WAY longer track record than Phillips did when we picked him up. The man has 3000 major league ABs. He's almost 30 years old. His career OBP is .298. If Bruce isn't ready, then start him in AAA, but there's not a need for Patterson when we already have Hopper and Freel out there. I would a thousand times rather start Freel in CF than Patterson. Freel, in the worst year of his career last season, had a .308 OBP. His career OBP is .358. Freel is no superstar but he's shown over his career he can be an at least serviceable leadoff man.

I agree we have plenty of candidates. However, I believe Freel will not land the CF job because his OBP was so poor last year. Hopper and Patterson (at least from Spring Training) fit the need better. Freel can be the outfield utility guy...unless he's traded early.

Patterson may very well cool off. I just think that if the guy can keep his OBP high then he should be the leadoff guy on Opening Day and let Bruce start the year in Louisville.

Handofdeath
03-18-2008, 10:57 PM
If I'm a Reds fan I could live with Patterson being the OD starting CF and batting leadoff. First off, Patterson is outstanding defensively and the Reds need that in their OF badly. He's good enough and fast enough that he could leave Dunn and Griffey needing to cover less ground defensively. That is a very good thing. He is an outstanding base stealer, which the Reds could really use. Fact is, Patterson was 4th last year in SB's in the AL with 37 and 3rd in 2006 with 45. He did this despite playing in just 135 games in 2006 and 132 in 2007. He is just 28 years old and is more than capable of finding the plate discipline that he would need to be an effective leadoff hitter. He is doing quite well this spring and that is very significant. Usually Patterson is a horrible hitter in ST and has been every season but one. The one time he had a good spring was when he had his best year in 2004 and that year he was pretty good. I would also point out he has a little bit of power as well, he slugged .499 in the minors. Many of his shortcomings I believe come from the fact the Cubs brought him up before he was ready and didn't develop him properly. The talent and potential is absolutely still there. He was looked at in 99-00 as having the same kind of potential as Jay Bruce has now. The Reds might catch lightning in a bottle here. I don't believe the Reds are looking at him long term but if he does well then the Reds have solved, at least partially, the upcoming OF depth problem for the Reds.

jnwohio
03-19-2008, 12:59 AM
Random Comments from reading the thread to this point.....

The "deadline" for making (or avoiding if you are the club) SuperTwo status in arbitration generally falls btween the middle and end of June for guys coming up for the first time and never going back down over the rest of the year and the two following seasons (i.e. assuming Jay Bruce makes it to Cincy this year, he figures to either be or not be a SuperTwo at the end of the 2010 season.) I'll be surprised if it takes him two and half months to get to Cincy unless he is injured or the club acquires another veteran outfielder.

Patterson is a major upgrade over Freel or Hopper in the field. Going by Freel's stats the last two years, he has no more business in the lead off spot than Patterson if one went by his past stats. On the short sample of last year, Hopper is head and shoulders above them both as a lead off man.

I agree, if Jr and Dunn are both gone after this season, who will be in the OF for the Reds in 2009? I see this as reason to get Bruce back up earlier instead of later.

IowaRed
03-19-2008, 11:34 AM
If I'm a Reds fan I could live with Patterson being the OD starting CF and batting leadoff. First off, Patterson is outstanding defensively and the Reds need that in their OF badly. He's good enough and fast enough that he could leave Dunn and Griffey needing to cover less ground defensively. That is a very good thing. He is an outstanding base stealer, which the Reds could really use. Fact is, Patterson was 4th last year in SB's in the AL with 37 and 3rd in 2006 with 45. He did this despite playing in just 135 games in 2006 and 132 in 2007. He is just 28 years old and is more than capable of finding the plate discipline that he would need to be an effective leadoff hitter. He is doing quite well this spring and that is very significant. Usually Patterson is a horrible hitter in ST and has been every season but one. The one time he had a good spring was when he had his best year in 2004 and that year he was pretty good. I would also point out he has a little bit of power as well, he slugged .499 in the minors. Many of his shortcomings I believe come from the fact the Cubs brought him up before he was ready and didn't develop him properly. The talent and potential is absolutely still there. He was looked at in 99-00 as having the same kind of potential as Jay Bruce has now. The Reds might catch lightning in a bottle here. I don't believe the Reds are looking at him long term but if he does well then the Reds have solved, at least partially, the upcoming OF depth problem for the Reds.

The list of 28 year olds that have suddenly acquired on base skills is likely very short but I don't have that list, it's just a guess. I like defense and I like good base stealers but I don't like leading off games with somebody who rarely gets on base (or in Baker's case 2 guys). Maybe he has figured it out but his history and baseball history is not on his side. I would much rather have his and the at bats of those like him, go to players that are more productive and are still developing.

BLEEDS
03-19-2008, 12:39 PM
The list of 28 year olds that have suddenly acquired on base skills is likely very short but I don't have that list, it's just a guess. I like defense and I like good base stealers but I don't like leading off games with somebody who rarely gets on base (or in Baker's case 2 guys). Maybe he has figured it out but his history and baseball history is not on his side. I would much rather have his and the at bats of those like him, go to players that are more productive and are still developing.

Hear Hear! I can't trust me some Dusty, but I'm willing to give the SCOUTS who said Patterson has finally "got it" and changed his approach at the plate, and give the guy a chance. If he actually learns to take a pitch, bunts, and has given up on his "power potential" that everyone pinned him with, MAYBE, just MAYBE he can get his OBP over .333 for an extended period of time.

The fact that he's PLATOONING with Hopper/Freel gives me at least some inclination to not jump off a bridge. I think he'll be on a short leash though, although I think the best case scenario is that Bruce stays in AAA until June, helping him stay away from "Super 2" status.

That being said, putting a Castro or a Gonzalez at #2 totally defeats any potential we might get out of anything resembling an actual lead-off hitter. I'd much rather put Dunn at #2 than just about anyone. Keppinger would be the ideal #2 but he's not getting 300 PA's. Joey Votto would be MY ideal #2, he's young, fast, has some OBP.

The fact that OBP is totally lost on Baker kills me. Especially since he doesn't want his POWER guys to get on base, via a walk, he wants them to "knock guys in". It's going to be REALLY hard to do that when HIS ideal lineup is CF, SS and then Brandon Phillips (who Baker's already pimped at batting 3rd "eventually", meaning obviously when KGJ is gone). Not going to be many guys on base to knock in.

Dunn and EE are the best guys to drive guys in, and they'll be lucky to have anyone on base in front of them, and they won't be batting until the 2nd inning a lot of times, and have no protection behind them.

MADDENING!!:bang:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Va Red Fan
03-19-2008, 01:24 PM
To quote and old dead guy, this is much ado about nothing. It is mid March. The birds are just beginning to reappear after a long winter and we baseball fans are looking at our still unestablished team and thinking its impossible.
First, Patterson may not be that bad in the leaoff spot. I want to wait and see.
Second, just because Dusty doesn't place the same emphasis on OBP than some of the fans does not make him a dope. He is a successful major league baseball manager while we reflect our opinions from other jobs and home.
Third, since the roster is not set, it is highly difficult to complain about a still non-existant starting line-up. Let us be patient.
Lastly, there is a bright future for the Reds, something we have not had in some time and I think it is important not to jump to early conclusions. Just look at the ideas thrown out on this board every day - Baker is going to ruin the arms of our young pitchers, Baker will play guys who have expereince but are well under major league quality just because he likes it that way, WK has no baseball sense and he has no idea what the team needs, the Reds need to make a major trade to fix a major problem - insert numerous perceived problems, the Reds would be foolish to trade away any of the youth because they are going to be Roy Hobbs all over again - we all know they will though, etc.
I think it would be great for us if we took a deep breath, sat back in our easy chair, thanked God that a real sport is getting ready to begin again and watch our beloved Reds.

SMcGavin
03-19-2008, 01:33 PM
Patterson may very well cool off. I just think that if the guy can keep his OBP high then he should be the leadoff guy on Opening Day and let Bruce start the year in Louisville.

But he won't. He has 22 ABs this spring with a .455 OBP. He has over 3000 in his major league career with a .298 OBP. I'm going to trust the latter. His defense is fine, he's got speed, if he had OBP he'd be fine in CF. But he doesn't.

SMcGavin
03-19-2008, 01:37 PM
Patterson is a major upgrade over Freel or Hopper in the field. Going by Freel's stats the last two years, he has no more business in the lead off spot than Patterson if one went by his past stats.

Ryan Freel posted an OBP over .360 every year from 2004 to 2006, with at least 350 ABs in every season. Corey Patterson has never posted an OBP over .330.

CWRed
03-19-2008, 01:43 PM
Second, just because Dusty doesn't place the same emphasis on OBP than some of the fans does not make him a dope.

Um it does a little bit.

I think it would be great for us if we took a deep breath, sat back in our easy chair, thanked God that a real sport is getting ready to begin again and watch our beloved Reds.

Yes I agree totally with this one. :beerme:

gedred69
03-19-2008, 02:29 PM
Sorry to enter this thread so late, I've been busy attending ST games :beerme: I must say, I have witnessed lackadaisical defense from Patterson in CF that caused the Reds runs, a meandering charge of a single to CF, that allowed Phils 3B coach to change a hold sign to the runner, into a go. I witnessed him mis-judge a FB that prevented him a good throwing position and a rather weak throw to the plate. If Bruce had been playing CF, they wouldn't even have thought about sending the runner. I have seen 2 other occasions that indicate MLB has already learned of Bruce's howitzer arm. I also saw Bruce against the Sox, get to a certain 2 bagger in the R-C gap and make a play of it at 2nd. In what I have seen, I'd rather see him defensively in CF than Patterson.

maniem
03-19-2008, 05:34 PM
If Patterson was slotted in the 7th or 8th slot in the lineup, I'd be fine with him starting. Solid defense, speed, has decent power. In fact, I could see a boost in his numbers similar to what AGon did last year due to playing at GABP. His OBP would probably still be dreadful, but he could easily hit 20-25 HR in that park. Problem is, Dusty will continue to miscast him in the leadoff spot. The guy has always been a free swinger and always will be.

NDReds9
03-20-2008, 02:21 AM
Sorry to enter this thread so late, I've been busy attending ST games :beerme: I must say, I have witnessed lackadaisical defense from Patterson in CF that caused the Reds runs, a meandering charge of a single to CF, that allowed Phils 3B coach to change a hold sign to the runner, into a go. I witnessed him mis-judge a FB that prevented him a good throwing position and a rather weak throw to the plate. If Bruce had been playing CF, they wouldn't even have thought about sending the runner. I have seen 2 other occasions that indicate MLB has already learned of Bruce's howitzer arm. I also saw Bruce against the Sox, get to a certain 2 bagger in the R-C gap and make a play of it at 2nd. In what I have seen, I'd rather see him defensively in CF than Patterson.

It does not matter one single bit.

Dusty - F'ckn - Baker made up his mind that Corey F. Patterson would be the Reds' CF the day he was signed.




WHAT CAN PATTERSON DO THAT HOPPER CAN'T?

Steal 40 bases? What else?

gedred69
03-20-2008, 10:47 AM
It does not matter one single bit.

Dusty - F'ckn - Baker made up his mind that Corey F. Patterson would be the Reds' CF the day he was signed.




WHAT CAN PATTERSON DO THAT HOPPER CAN'T?

Steal 40 bases? What else?

You are most likely correct.

BLEEDS
03-20-2008, 11:15 AM
It does not matter one single bit.

Dusty - F'ckn - Baker made up his mind that Corey F. Patterson would be the Reds' CF the day he was signed.




WHAT CAN PATTERSON DO THAT HOPPER CAN'T?

Steal 40 bases? What else?

Hit from the left side of the plate ?

Hit a HR every now and then (more than once a season)?

Have a SLG higher than his OBP?

Look, I'm no fan of Patterson - based on his previous history - but I'm DEFINITELY not more of a fan of Hopper because of it. In fact, it might make me hate him more than I already did, because he'll likely be the RH complement to Patterson.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Rocket_Fuel
03-20-2008, 11:00 PM
Having Bruce in the starting lineup isn't going to make or break the Reds so why complain about it?

Hey Meat
03-20-2008, 11:15 PM
Why did we trade Hamilton again? I just don't get. Wayne (Special) K is at it again.

captainmorgan07
03-20-2008, 11:23 PM
I don't know why everyone has so much hate for corey patterson. He's a proven major leaguer . I'll agree with most of you he's not that great with the stick at times. He has some pop and can steal a few bases when he gets on. I think the reds are playing him in center more for his defense than his offense. They need a speedy guy who can cover the gaps with the two defensive liabilties in left and right. We've got enough offense from guys like jr., dunn, phillips, edwin and the combo of votto and hatte. it's not like were asking him to hit 30 hrs and drive in 100. He'll do fine until Bruce is ready to come back up and take over the spot.I am not one bit worried about him starting in CF

BLEEDS
03-21-2008, 12:31 AM
I don't know why everyone has so much hate for corey patterson. He's a proven major leaguer . I'll agree with most of you he's not that great with the stick at times. He has some pop and can steal a few bases when he gets on. I think the reds are playing him in center more for his defense than his offense. They need a speedy guy who can cover the gaps with the two defensive liabilties in left and right. We've got enough offense from guys like jr., dunn, phillips, edwin and the combo of votto and hatte. it's not like were asking him to hit 30 hrs and drive in 100. He'll do fine until Bruce is ready to come back up and take over the spot.I am not one bit worried about him starting in CF

Problem is - some people will argue - is that it will be AT LEAST until June until Bruce is brought up.

I think Patterson has NOTHING to do with whether or not Jay Bruce comes back up at this point. Trading a Hopper/Freel and/or a Dunn or Griff injury/trade will have to happen before they consider that.

Patterson will have to hit under .200 before they'll bring Bruce up from AAA, all else being equal.

They are doing this PRIMARILY to avoid Super 2 status for him in Arbitration. He would have had to hit better than Patterson in ST to win the job. He didn't.

I would argue he'll NEVER play a game in CF this year, and will only be brought up to play RF if and when he's brought up this year.

In 2009, he'll be the opening day RF-er. I wouldn't bet against him NOT seeing time with the Big Club before September barring one of the things I mentioned above.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

IowaRed
03-21-2008, 12:58 PM
I don't know why everyone has so much hate for corey patterson. He's a proven major leaguer . I'll agree with most of you he's not that great with the stick at times. He has some pop and can steal a few bases when he gets on. I think the reds are playing him in center more for his defense than his offense. They need a speedy guy who can cover the gaps with the two defensive liabilties in left and right. We've got enough offense from guys like jr., dunn, phillips, edwin and the combo of votto and hatte. it's not like were asking him to hit 30 hrs and drive in 100. He'll do fine until Bruce is ready to come back up and take over the spot.I am not one bit worried about him starting in CF

Nobody hates Corey Patterson that I know of. I hate that the manager thinks he's worthy of starting in CF and leading off. I wouldn't hate it if he was a reserve OF who pinch hit and came in late for defense.

You are absolutely 100% correct when you say he's a proven major leaguer. Everybody can look at his stats and watch him play and see what he can/can't do. Apparently having horrible on-base skills gets you a job leading off for this team, that would be the issue here

gedred69
03-21-2008, 11:29 PM
Nobody hates Corey Patterson that I know of. I hate that the manager thinks he's worthy of starting in CF and leading off. I wouldn't hate it if he was a reserve OF who pinch hit and came in late for defense.

You are absolutely 100% correct when you say he's a proven major leaguer. Everybody can look at his stats and watch him play and see what he can/can't do. Apparently having horrible on-base skills gets you a job leading off for this team, that would be the issue here

As I stated earlier, I was in attendance to 3 games, and saw, in person, this supposed starting CF absolutely dog it and cost at least 2 runs. Griffey coulda' done as much, and that isn't saying much, other than Patterson isn't any answer. Freel or Hopper, let alone Bruce would have done so much better.

757690
03-22-2008, 12:18 AM
Not really sure which games gedre69 saw, but I was down in Sarasota for over a week and saw Patterson play around a half a dozen games in center. He was a little shaky in the first one, but that was his first game in months. I can assure you that he never was "dogging it". I saw him make many plays and get to many balls that no other Reds outfielder could get to. On the days that Freel or Hopper were in center, you could tell the difference. With Dunn in left, Patterson's range will be a real benefit.

I also saw Patterson really show a new approach to hitting for him. He was bunting the ball, hitting it the other way, and taking a lot of pitches. One game I was sitting next to two Cubs fans who couldn't stop talking about how they wished Patterson had the approach he was showing now, back when he was with the Cubs.

I was not too happy to hear the Reds sign him, but after seeing him play, I think he could surprise a lot of fans.

gedred69
03-22-2008, 01:02 AM
Not really sure which games gedre69 saw, but I was down in Sarasota for over a week and saw Patterson play around a half a dozen games in center. He was a little shaky in the first one, but that was his first game in months. I can assure you that he never was "dogging it". I saw him make many plays and get to many balls that no other Reds outfielder could get to. On the days that Freel or Hopper were in center, you could tell the difference. With Dunn in left, Patterson's range will be a real benefit.

I also saw Patterson really show a new approach to hitting for him. He was bunting the ball, hitting it the other way, and taking a lot of pitches. One game I was sitting next to two Cubs fans who couldn't stop talking about how they wished Patterson had the approach he was showing now, back when he was with the Cubs.

I was not too happy to hear the Reds sign him, but after seeing him play, I think he could surprise a lot of fans.

Well, it's great to hear from someone who actually saw happenings even if we disagree. I attended games from the 14th through the 20th, Yanks at Sarasota, Bosox in Ft. Myers, And Phils in Sarasota. Patterson played in those games like a guy who knew he had the job, and dogged it, period. In short, he sucked, and ho-hum Griffey woulda' done better, IMO. Charge a single to CF, don't wait until it gets to you, and get in position on a fly ball so you can make a good throw to the plate. (Otherwise, his arm has to be serious suspect).

JWP
03-22-2008, 01:58 AM
Why did we trade Hamilton again? I just don't get. Wayne (Special) K is at it again.

I'm not complaining about the Hamilton trade. So far Volquez has been absolutely electric on the hill, and I'm looking forward to seeing him pitch in the rotation. I, for one, am glad that Krivsky made that trade. It's part of the reason that the Reds rotation looks better than it has in the past decade. Pitching is what's going to win ballgames for this team, not more offense.

AmarilloRed
03-22-2008, 02:06 AM
Why did we trade Hamilton again? I just don't get. Wayne (Special) K is at it again.

Perhaps because we had no starting pitching beyond Harang and Arroyo last year? That could be it.:rolleyes:

Va Red Fan
03-22-2008, 02:55 AM
OK, I'm a pastor so maybe I am ultra sensitive on this subject, but please - let the men who were hired to do their jobs do their jobs. For some reason, many church members think they could do my job better than me. I would never show up at thier job and tell them how to do it better, but they have no problem attempting to "guide" me to do things better, i.e. their way. I know how WK and Dusty feel.
Dusty Baker, a winning ML manager, has not managed one regular season game for the Reds and some of you seem to think he's clueless. Long playing career followed by successful managing career and some of you think he should study the game - at least the game you see.
WK, on the other hand, only makes stupid trades and has no clue about baseball talent. Forget that he was one of the key people in keeping a low budget team in the hunt year after year, not to mention in a place without the tradition of Cincy and a horrible home field. Forget that he picked up Arroyo and Phillips and traded for what looks like a very solid starter in the off season, shipping out a risky, but talented OF.
Seriously, it reads like talk radio often sounds, people who have nothing better with their life to do than complain about their favorite team. Instead of complaining about Dusty and WK, I plan to cheer and pray for them.

UPRedsFan
03-22-2008, 10:55 AM
Well said Pastor. But I do wonder why Corey will be starting in CF apparently against right handed pitching when last year he could not get on base against right handed pitching. I think is OBP was .286 if I remember the splits against rhp.

If Bruce isn't ready, I'd rather see Freel and Hopper split time out there.

I agree Dusty has far more experience and inside knowledge than any of us on this board. But why Dusty? Explain your thinking to us!

The Cowboy
04-08-2008, 03:38 PM
I'm not crying that copatt is in the lineup at all:)

RedsFan2008
04-08-2008, 04:19 PM
Can someone please fill me in on how the FA works for minor leaguers??? Someone said that keeping Bruce in AAA for 2 months mean we have him for another year. What exactly does this mean? Can someone please fill me in...

Va Red Fan
04-08-2008, 04:47 PM
I think many on this board jumped way too soon when they attacked Patterson. He has talent. I think he will do fine. He has tools that Freel and Hopper do not have. I think he was a good addition.

Handofdeath
04-08-2008, 05:07 PM
I understand that many people on this board have a certain way of looking at things baseball-wise as it pertains to what it takes to make a baseball team or player successful. People dislike Norris Hopper because he has a low OPS or Patterson can't possibly be a successful leadoff hitter because of a low career OBP. There are also those that criticize Adam Dunn for his low batting average. It is important to remember that in all cases when discussing a player/teams pros and cons, whether we like it or not, it is basically a philopsophical argument. There are no certainties concerning baseball stats. Strong tendencies yes, but no certainties. I'm going to show you the season OBP's of 9 players from a previous season and their games played and AB's. These are the only players who have at least 100 G's and 300 AB's from this team

Games/At-Bats/OBP

1. 121/364/.304
2. 118/376/.291
3. 125/435/.345
4. 148/567/.343
5. 158/614/.358
6. 139/504/.327
7. 127/453/.347
8. 145/503/.339
9. 109/309/.381

Not very good huh? I would also point out that not one player of these 9 players slugged over .498. 4 slugged under .400 for the season. Not very impressive at all offensively wouldn't you say? But in the end results are what matter and all 9 players won World Series rings that season. The season? 1990.

redsfan1966
04-08-2008, 06:28 PM
I will gladly give Corey his due--he has started the season verrrrrry well....however, I will stick to my guns--I still think trading Hamilton in part was because we had the next big thing in Jay Bruce--he should have been the Opening Day starter in center...

Chris Sabowned
04-08-2008, 06:37 PM
The reds have always had hitting. Sure Hamilton was good but we have Bruce waiting. We have not had a good pitching staff this decade, and even longer probably. Now we finally are starting to build a good young pitching staff. Sure Hamilton was a stud but we NEEDED pitching more.

mroby85
04-09-2008, 01:28 PM
I just wanted to throw some props his way, considering all the negativity that was going on towards him. He's done a fine job thus far in center field, and deserves some credit for it. The Reds came up short last night, but he had a couple clutch hits, not to mention his homer that tied the game against philadelphia in the 8th, to go along with the great center field defense he's been playing. Thats all I really have to say, just wanted to give some credit where it's due.

justincredible
04-09-2008, 01:32 PM
I think CPat has played well for us so far and has grown on me a lot. I would love it if he was moved down in the order, though.

Gizmo
04-09-2008, 01:40 PM
Not a leadoff man, but he's doing solid in center thus far. Still waiting for the bottom to drop, as is typical Patterson.

IowaRed
04-09-2008, 02:07 PM
the "negativity" that was going on towards Patterson, at least in most cases, was based on his career numbers. What else does one have to go on? The hope that everything he's done up to this point was just getting ready for this year? He is a good defensive CF, has some pop, and some speed. He is not a guy that should be batting at the top of the order and his numbers this year bear that out. His .286 OBP so far this year is not that far from his career number and likely will be pretty close to it at the end of the season. He will get some hits and some home runs but he just doesn't get on base enough to justify batting him first

redhawk61
04-09-2008, 02:19 PM
Exactly if we could find a better option for the leadoff and move Patt down to the 7th spot, he would do enough for this team that I would not be against signing him up for a long term option, and once Stubbs is ready CP could move over to LF and have a OF in the near future of CP, Stubbs, Bruce......That is one heck of a defensive OF.

What we should do for right now is move Kepp to the leadoff, Votto to the two hole and CP to the 7 hole. No Votto is getting some protection with Griff behind him, allowing him to get better pitches to hit and to get his bat going.

My ideal lineup right now at this moment with the regulars would be
Kepp
Votto
Griff
BP
Dunn
EE
CP
Bako

Natty Redlocks
04-09-2008, 03:04 PM
Exactly if we could find a better option for the leadoff and move Patt down to the 7th spot, he would do enough for this team that I would not be against signing him up for a long term option, and once Stubbs is ready CP could move over to LF and have a OF in the near future of CP, Stubbs, Bruce......That is one heck of a defensive OF.

What we should do for right now is move Kepp to the leadoff, Votto to the two hole and CP to the 7 hole. No Votto is getting some protection with Griff behind him, allowing him to get better pitches to hit and to get his bat going.

My ideal lineup right now at this moment with the regulars would be
Kepp
Votto
Griff
BP
Dunn
EE
CP
Bako

Close, but I have:

Votto
Encarnacion
Dunn
Griffey
Keppinger
Phillips
Patterson
Catcher (OK, Bako for now)

As much as he's struggled, Encarnacion has a higher OBP than both Phillips and Patterson. He and Votto should be allowed to focus on getting on base and not worry about driving in runs. Dunn needs protection, badly. Keppinger will hit wherever you put him right now. Phillips and Patterson both have the power to drive in the middle-of-the-order runs and the speed to manufacture runs at the bottom of the lineup.

Sadly, none of this will happen.

Homer Bailey
04-09-2008, 03:20 PM
Keppinger
Dunn
Phillips
Griffey
Encarnacion
Votto
Patterson
PITCHER
BAKO

Lets try it! Bottom of the lineup is already killing us.

Trace's Daddy
04-09-2008, 03:48 PM
I'd like to see him batting in front of the pitcher. If he gets on, the pitcher sacrifices him into scoring position. This would take advantage of his speed.

tommycash
04-09-2008, 03:55 PM
I think that it is funny that the two guys in the offense we all were worried about (Bako and Patterson) are producing more than most everyone else in the lineup (barring Keppinger of course). I will have to admit to eating crow for now on this one.

Va Red Fan
04-09-2008, 10:11 PM
It really makes me sick when people on this board think they know it all. Obviously, Patterson is not a horrible player. I don't care what his career OBP or any other stat you find says. A great deal of what a player does can not be put into a math equation.

I also find the fascination with batting order amazing. Some of it may matter, i.e. getting your best batters the most at bats over the season and having players in position to help the most, but frankly most of the time it doesn't matter at all.

Patterson can get hits and steal bases - that's not a bad thing regardless of where he bats. He has done fine in the lead-off spot.

Also, Fogg has pitched three solid innings so far. He is not the joke that some of you make him out to be.

Va Red Fan
04-09-2008, 10:17 PM
Man, don't you just hate lead-off hitters who have three homers eight games into the season and both RBI in a game that ends 2-2 after 9 innings? Dusty is a joke for putting a guy who can get key hits, drive balls out of the park, steal bases and play great defense at the top of the line-up and in CF. I would much rather have two guys who primarily bunt to try to get on base even in close games. Guys who get injured running the bases and can't get to balls because they take bad routes.

What a joke this whole 8 games has been.

Sound familiar? Many of you were WRONG! Realize that you don't know it all and our team needs more fans than critics so join the club and drink the lemonade or go home.

tommycash
04-09-2008, 11:20 PM
Hey I agree with you about Patterson and Fogg but if you don't like people being critics of the Reds then maybe you are on the wrong website. Forums and Message Boards are made for that stuff. We pay way too much money to see these guys and wear their clothes and spend way too much time in our lives watching them that we deserve to criticize this team when we don't like certain things that go on. Are any of always right, no. But don't you think that the people who pay the salaries of these teams should get to vent about their teams. Absolutely. We pay $4 dollars for hot dogs and $6 for beer and mucho dinero for season tickets and MLB extra innings and not even get to see your team have a winning season every year. I drink the lemonade that is Reds Fever every year, being that I continue to watch even when we lose 90+ games a year. We all do. I hated it when we traded Sean Casey and I admit I didn't like it when we signed Corey Patterson (as I wanted Bruce to play this year, or at least see Kenny Lofton in a Reds uniform). I deserve the right to voice my concern. If I am wrong, then I am wrong, but we all have the right to believe that. Never blindy follow anything in life. Always question your beliefs as it only makes you stronger.

LouisvilleCARDS
04-09-2008, 11:38 PM
Patterson, just got another double in the 8th of this Brewers game. Man he's on a roll. Right now it looks like he's looking pretty good.

OSUredsFAN
04-09-2008, 11:39 PM
Man this Corey Patterson guy stinks!!! I must say, at the time I was upset, but I never posted anything. Right now its working out pretty well.

bubbachunk
04-10-2008, 12:12 AM
Kid is plain raking

Nuxhall41
04-10-2008, 12:14 AM
The ESPN baseball guys were asked to give their craziest predictions for the year last week before the season began. One of the guys predicted that Patterson would hit 30 HRs.

I suppose it wasn't so crazy. :)

Why Not?
04-10-2008, 12:16 AM
Can someone please fill me in on how the FA works for minor leaguers??? Someone said that keeping Bruce in AAA for 2 months mean we have him for another year. What exactly does this mean? Can someone please fill me in...

As soon as someone is placed on a 25-man roster, the clock starts ticking toward free agency. By keeping him down now, it will be an additional year before Bruce reaches arbitration eligibility and, eventually, free agency.

Tampa Bay is doing a similar thing with a stud prospect, Evan Longoria.

fugowitribe
04-10-2008, 12:22 AM
Corey Patterson isn't that bad! The only bad thing about this situation is that We will not see Bruce on Opening Day, but IMO I think we are a better lineup with Patterson in CF. The leadoff spot is solved, and he is no worse than Bruce with the glove.

I don't want to toot my own horn, but TOOT! TOOT! Just kidding, I didn't think CP had this much game.

mroby85
04-10-2008, 12:33 AM
It really makes me sick when people on this board think they know it all. Obviously, Patterson is not a horrible player. I don't care what his career OBP or any other stat you find says. A great deal of what a player does can not be put into a math equation.

I also find the fascination with batting order amazing. Some of it may matter, i.e. getting your best batters the most at bats over the season and having players in position to help the most, but frankly most of the time it doesn't matter at all.

Patterson can get hits and steal bases - that's not a bad thing regardless of where he bats. He has done fine in the lead-off spot.

Also, Fogg has pitched three solid innings so far. He is not the joke that some of you make him out to be.


AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!

NDReds9
04-10-2008, 01:54 AM
I think that it is funny that the two guys in the offense we all were worried about (Bako and Patterson) are producing more than most everyone else in the lineup (barring Keppinger of course). I will have to admit to eating crow for now on this one.

Bako hasn't hit the ball hard once.

Mutaman
04-10-2008, 02:09 AM
The obsession with the batting order continues. As if batting Votto 2nd will turn this team into the 27 Yankees. If Fogg and Lincoln continue to pitch like they did tonight this team will be competitive no matter who bats where.

Redus
04-10-2008, 09:26 AM
Bako hasn't hit the ball hard once.

"Hit em where they aint" :p:

Redus
04-10-2008, 09:37 AM
As for Patterson I wondered what all the crying was for when we got him. Im in a AL only fantasy League and had Patterson the last couple years. He is what he is. He'll hit 255 and steal 35 bags. He'll play a good center with decent range, useless for fantasy purposes :), but much needed between Dunn and Griffey. Im glad he's off to a nice start so he's not everyones scape goat.

IowaRed
04-10-2008, 10:52 AM
The obsession with the batting order continues. As if batting Votto 2nd will turn this team into the 27 Yankees. If Fogg and Lincoln continue to pitch like they did tonight this team will be competitive no matter who bats where.

but why not maximize production by putting the best OBP guys at the top of the order instead of arranging your batting order by some archaic notion that your CF needs to be the lead-off hitter or the fast guy needs to be the lead off hitter?

Obviously Patterson is hitting well but there is nothing in his history to suggest that he will be even an average lead-off hitter. Obsession is too strong a word, this is Reds message board so batting order, especially illogical ones are going to be discussed

Mutaman
04-10-2008, 12:08 PM
but why not maximize production

Except maximizing production hasn't been this team's problem over the last 7 years. Pitching and defense has been this team's problem over the last 7 years.

durl
04-10-2008, 12:23 PM
Phillips tweaked his game when the Reds acquired him and it appears that Patterson has done the same. Sure, it's early in the season but I continue to be optimistic about the guy.

Stats are good at showing trends and lending insight to possible outcomes but they don't take into account the ability of a player to adjust his game.

IowaRed
04-10-2008, 01:21 PM
Except maximizing production hasn't been this team's problem over the last 7 years. Pitching and defense has been this team's problem over the last 7 years.

agreed but your comment about an obsession with the batting order still begs the question "why not maximize production?" The batting order is something that can be easily controlled by a manager. I understand having a gut feeling about a matchup but to consistently put lower AB guys at the top of the order is giving up outs. Castro batting 2nd? Patterson (for most of his career) batting leadoff? That's just absurd but I will be happy to eat crow if somehow Patterson has completely changed and become a good leadoff hitter all of a sudden.

LouisvilleCARDS
04-10-2008, 06:00 PM
The obsession with the batting order continues. As if batting Votto 2nd will turn this team into the 27 Yankees. If Fogg and Lincoln continue to pitch like they did tonight this team will be competitive no matter who bats where.

Exactly. Too many fantasy league minded people here. You would think at the amount of complaining that Dusty was batting Phillips in the 9 spot, the pitcher was batting cleanup, and we were using relief pitcher as pinch hitters. You can play with the lineup all you want, bottom line is, players have to produce the offense themselves.

bianchiveloce
04-11-2008, 09:50 AM
And, Patterson's defense has been outstanding. In watching the games on MLB.com, Patterson gets a very good jump on the ball and takes good angles to the ball.