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View Full Version : MLB TradeRumor - Bailey apparently availble.



Redsnake
03-17-2008, 12:14 PM
I can see why people are down on him, but I don't think now is the time to trade him. Especially with his value being so low. However, does anyone else think Homer is availble?

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

corbinky
03-17-2008, 01:16 PM
I don't doubt that he is available but I think a lot of the stories about his attitude that are coming out now is a snowball of one story. Not saying it's not partly true, but the way it's hit the fan in recent days is ridiculous.

ChatterRed
03-17-2008, 01:30 PM
I'd trade him, but I'd wait to do it. I think his value at the end of July will be much higher if he annihilates triple A hitting. Could be the best thing that happens.

Bailey goes to triple AAA and blow them away all season, bidding to come back to the majors, and some team out of the running or in the running but needing help, is willing to trade too much for him.

mlbfan30
03-17-2008, 03:25 PM
It's incredible how poorly the Reds media is treating Bailey, and maybe the organization as well.

You try to trade him all offseason, and the media wants him gone for a "veteran" pitcher.
You create suspect articles about his makeup and have it snowball out of control with a few bad starts.
You basically hyped him up then destroyed any trade value he has... then want to trade him.
It's just amazing how bad everything has been...

Bailey is a top 10 prospect in Baseball. He's 21 and has already made it to the majors. Let him figure it out and just stop talking about it. Let him focus on pitching and not all this other crap. I really think it's the media's creation thats starting to destroy his game.

Oxilon
03-17-2008, 03:54 PM
This may be too early to say, but I'm going to go out on a limb to say it; I don't think Bailey is going to amount to much in the majors. Yes, I know he's only 21, he really hasn't seen that much action about A ball, and it's only spring training. But we had three highly touted pitching prospects pitch for the Reds this spring training. Cueto and Volquez were unbelievably dominant considering their position coming into spring training and Bailey struggled. Don't get me wrong here, it's still very early and all in his career, but I just don't feel confident about Bailey making any strides -- atleast not to surmount to anything dominant in the majors. From all the talk about him being uncoachable, to his obvious stubburness about seeking out advice, he just really doesn't strike me as somebody who will reach his potential. And considering the number of highly touted pitching prospects who burn out once they reach the majors, I think getting 2/3 of our prized pitching prospects to be successful is an outstanding accomplishment. Again, I may be way to premature on this -- hell, I probably am. But I just don't feel confident in Homer.

ChatterRed
03-17-2008, 04:50 PM
This may be too early to say, but I'm going to go out on a limb to say it; I don't think Bailey is going to amount to much in the majors. Yes, I know he's only 21, he really hasn't seen that much action about A ball, and it's only spring training. But we had three highly touted pitching prospects pitch for the Reds this spring training. Cueto and Volquez were unbelievably dominant considering their position coming into spring training and Bailey struggled. Don't get me wrong here, it's still very early and all in his career, but I just don't feel confident about Bailey making any strides -- atleast not to surmount to anything dominant in the majors. From all the talk about him being uncoachable, to his obvious stubburness about seeking out advice, he just really doesn't strike me as somebody who will reach his potential. And considering the number of highly touted pitching prospects who burn out once they reach the majors, I think getting 2/3 of our prized pitching prospects to be successful is an outstanding accomplishment. Again, I may be way to premature on this -- hell, I probably am. But I just don't feel confident in Homer.

:thumbup:

Couldn't have said it better. My biggest concerns are everything I hear about his attitude, being "uncoachable", not willing to change or make adjustments.

I remember reading a quote from Homer last year talking about how hard it was to see other guys he pitched against in the minors getting called up while he was still in triple AAA. What amazed me was that alot of those guys were holding their own in the majors while Homer was struggling.

And his high pitch counts worry me. He nitpicks around the plate too much. Goes full count on everybody. If he had a good changeup, he let his fielders do some work, but he tries to overpower every hitter and that doesn't fly in the majors. He's not Nolan Ryan.

naelag
03-17-2008, 05:01 PM
You could be talking about EV as recently as a year ago. He was struggling in the majors in multiple tries because he was rushed there. Mostly it was control problems--no one questioned his stuff. I think he is putting it all together now. Homer has just as a good a chance of doing the same.

JayBruce4HOF
03-17-2008, 05:04 PM
This may be too early to say, but I'm going to go out on a limb to say it; I don't think Bailey is going to amount to much in the majors. Yes, I know he's only 21, he really hasn't seen that much action about A ball, and it's only spring training. But we had three highly touted pitching prospects pitch for the Reds this spring training. Cueto and Volquez were unbelievably dominant considering their position coming into spring training and Bailey struggled. Don't get me wrong here, it's still very early and all in his career, but I just don't feel confident about Bailey making any strides -- atleast not to surmount to anything dominant in the majors. From all the talk about him being uncoachable, to his obvious stubburness about seeking out advice, he just really doesn't strike me as somebody who will reach his potential. And considering the number of highly touted pitching prospects who burn out once they reach the majors, I think getting 2/3 of our prized pitching prospects to be successful is an outstanding accomplishment. Again, I may be way to premature on this -- hell, I probably am. But I just don't feel confident in Homer.

You're right, it is way too early to make any such declarations.

Exactly how many pitchers have put it all together by the time they're 21? You're basing your comments about his coachability on rumors and innuendo by some extraordinarily poor Cincinnati reporters.

Trading him at his lowest value would be extremely foolish. Fortunately, I don't expect the Reds to make that mistake.

JayBruce4HOF
03-17-2008, 05:07 PM
:thumbup:

Couldn't have said it better. My biggest concerns are everything I hear about his attitude, being "uncoachable", not willing to change or make adjustments.

I remember reading a quote from Homer last year talking about how hard it was to see other guys he pitched against in the minors getting called up while he was still in triple AAA. What amazed me was that alot of those guys were holding their own in the majors while Homer was struggling.

And his high pitch counts worry me. He nitpicks around the plate too much. Goes full count on everybody. If he had a good changeup, he let his fielders do some work, but he tries to overpower every hitter and that doesn't fly in the majors. He's not Nolan Ryan.

HE IS TWENTY ONE YEARS OLD.

Please, anyone who reached the height of their emotional maturity by the age of 21, please speak up!

Anyone???

Anyone who also happens to possess physical abilities only held by around .1% of the population?

Please, by all means, speak up.

Dracodave
03-17-2008, 05:26 PM
Bailey wasnt untouchable as everyone said he was anyway. It was about finding a package that was going to give the Reds the best return. Haren was probably that package, but Haren probably was going to run abit more than just Bailey. I dont think anyone was off the market as much as WE seem to think they were.

You just have some high standards for what the return should be for Bailey, Bruce or Cueto. You dont sell short on prospects that can be better than the return when the return is Blanton or Bedard. You really have to take a risk on quality that we can afford to lose (Hamilton) and spin that for something we can't afford to lose (Voltron-More youth pitching). I think this is the reason you really didnt see a move of Bailey or K-ueto (Cueto) for any type of "now" pitcher. The quality and quantity of K-ueto, Voltron and Bailey was more than the just quality of Bedard or Blanton.

mlbfan30
03-17-2008, 05:38 PM
Copying someone from ORG...

[SP] Erik Bedard Left-Handed No. 1 Starter

Wednesday, March 28, 2007; H07

Several years ago, when the Orioles were trying to acquire pitcher Tim Hudson, the Athletics insisted any deal include Bedard. The Orioles were reluctant because in Bedard they saw the potential for an ace. Though he often struggled with command, and his pitch count often passed 100 by the fifth inning, Bedard showed flashes of brilliance. He was stubborn and was considered almost uncoachable, but the Orioles were wary to trade him because of his potential. Several years later, Bedard has finally achieved ace status. Late in March, Perlozzo named him the Opening Day starter, the first time a lefty has had that distinction since 1997. Bedard will be expected to lead a staff that includes two youngsters and two veterans. Not much has changed with Bedard's stoic demeanor. But scouts continue to rave about him, and the Orioles are thankful they did not trade him.

Bedard didn't actually pitch regularly in the majors until 25, and didn't post an ERA under 4.00 until 27, only 2 years ago.

TheBigLebowski
03-17-2008, 05:42 PM
Look how long it took Sabathia to become truly dominant...not everyone learns on the same curve.

Homer will be a dandy - soon enough.

DannyB
03-17-2008, 05:43 PM
QUOTE]Please, anyone who reached the height of their emotional maturity by the age of 21, please speak up![/QUOTE]

Ahem...:wave: :birthday:

Oxilon
03-17-2008, 05:48 PM
You're right, it is way too early to make any such declarations.

Exactly how many pitchers have put it all together by the time they're 21? You're basing your comments about his coachability on rumors and innuendo by some extraordinarily poor Cincinnati reporters.

Trading him at his lowest value would be extremely foolish. Fortunately, I don't expect the Reds to make that mistake.

I'm not bashing Homer because he isn't having as much success as he, along with all of us, wish he was having at the age of 21 per se. I'm just disappointed in what I hear about his work ethic, overall stubborness, and other intangible qualities that you don't want to hear in your prized pitching prospects. I'm not trying to bash Homer based on ST stats and than praise Volquez and Cueto on the same thing -- that'd be some what hypocritical. I'm just disappointed in how Bailey has handled himself since he was called up the majors last year and from what I've heard about him.

And you say I'm bashing him off of "rumors and innuendos by some extraordinarily poor Cincinnati reporters?" Well, considering they're around the team more than anybody else, why shouldn't we believe them? I mean, it's not like there was just one report about him being a malcontent/stubborn/etc..., it's been that way with almost every article, blog, or write-up from him. Yes, Cincinnati media, but national media as well (Gammons, Olney, etc...).

Carolina Red
03-17-2008, 05:48 PM
The kid is only 21. He will be fine. He has the tools to be great, I think it would be a big mistake for the Reds to give up on him so early. For a team that hasn't developed a great pitcher out of their system in 20 some years to let him go would be insane.

JayBruce4HOF
03-17-2008, 05:49 PM
I didn't say "bash" I said "base."

JayBruce4HOF
03-17-2008, 05:50 PM
The National Media has no clue. They're just going off the rumors that the local yahoos are spouting. Dusty just recently made a comment about Homer spending considerable time with Soto.

Oxilon
03-17-2008, 05:56 PM
The National Media has no clue. They're just going off the rumors that the local yahoos are spouting. Dusty just recently made a comment about Homer spending considerable time with Soto.

So now the national media has no knowledge either? So, we should just discredit anything the media puts out now? C'mon...

And ofcourse Dusty is going to backup Homer. What's he going to say, "Homer's a stubborn jackass who is pitching horribly."? And Homer seen speaking to Soto once during spring training is nothing to be excited about. Infact, it's the complete opposite. If a young pitcher is serious about making it to the big club, I know I'd expect to see him talking to each coach almost everyday, almost all the time, not just once a week.

JayBruce4HOF
03-17-2008, 05:58 PM
I guess I'll just say that this whole "attitude problem" is completely overblown and leave it at that.

Maybe he is impetuous... you know what, most 21 year old kids are!! Not to mention 21 year old world-class athletes.

Not everyone is on the same growth curve. It would be nice if they were.

Homer will go to AAA, work on his command and consistency, and he will be fine.

Casey
03-17-2008, 08:00 PM
The kid is only 21. He will be fine. He has the tools to be great, I think it would be a big mistake for the Reds to give up on him so early. For a team that hasn't developed a great pitcher out of their system in 20 some years to let him go would be insane.

Exactly. It's amazing how people's attitudes have changed about this guy in the past year. He's still the future and the best pitching prospect the team has had in a very long time. He's a young guy and young guys struggle some times. Trading him would be a huge, huge mistake.

Edd Roush
03-17-2008, 08:48 PM
This is a completely non-value added comment, but I agree with the camp that says it is way to early to know anything about Bailey. The man is young, give him a few more years to figure it out. No need to rush him with Harang, Arroyo, Volquez, Cueto and Fogg in the rotation. Homer just needs to relax.

berryluther
03-17-2008, 08:58 PM
Perhaps a Bailey and Votto (Canadian) to the Jays for Alex Rios. Make Adam Dunn learn how to play first base and add a RH power bat.

sweetsport06
03-17-2008, 10:26 PM
"I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, thatís their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fansí enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein. People play baseball. Numbers donít."[35]-Murray Chass

JayBruce4HOF
03-17-2008, 10:29 PM
"I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, thatís their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fansí enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein. People play baseball. Numbers donít."[35]-Murray Chass

:lol:

That guy really sounds like a moron.

He and Joe Morgan would get along famously, I'm sure.

mlbfan30
03-17-2008, 10:33 PM
"I suppose that if stats mongers want to sit at their computers and play with these things all day long, thatís their prerogative. But their attempt to introduce these new-age statistics into the game threatens to undermine most fansí enjoyment of baseball and the human factor therein. People play baseball. Numbers donít."[35]-Murray Chass

And Murray Chass is an old outdated writer that has no influence (or should have no influence) in baseball. Just because he's too stupid and stubborn to learn it and doesn't understand it, doesn't mean it's bad. Seriously... what's baseball without stats? It's part of the game.

JayBruce4HOF
03-17-2008, 10:37 PM
And Murray Chass is an old outdated writer that has no influence (or should have no influence) in baseball. Just because he's too stupid and stubborn to learn it and doesn't understand it, doesn't mean it's bad. Seriously... what's baseball without stats? It's part of the game.

Small-minded people who are unable and/or unwilling to expand their knowledge-base would much rather denounce it as simply unworthy of their time. It's much easier that way and allows them to maintain their close-minded approach with no fear of having their already decided world-view challenged.

New Slang
03-17-2008, 10:50 PM
If you wait out the storm, you will always be rewarded with sunshine.

GoReds33
03-17-2008, 10:53 PM
I really hope that this is all blown out of proportion. I have no problem with dangling a pitcher out, and seeing what you can get for him. I just don't think it's right in this situation. If the Reds make a habit of selling low with young players there will be nothing left. I think that another sting at AAA would really help Bailey, so he can regain his confidence, and work on his breaking ball. Other than that, he has the stuff to be a good big league pitcher. I just hope that we see him develop here, not somewhere else.

mlbfan30
03-17-2008, 11:15 PM
I really hope that this is all blown out of proportion. I have no problem with dangling a pitcher out, and seeing what you can get for him. I just don't think it's right in this situation. If the Reds make a habit of selling low with young players there will be nothing left. I think that another sting at AAA would really help Bailey, so he can regain his confidence, and work on his breaking ball. Other than that, he has the stuff to be a good big league pitcher. I just hope that we see him develop here, not somewhere else.

How about we sell Cueto right now when his value his high? Would he have that much more trade value, or would other teams say Spring Training is just that, and he hasn't done anything yet. But if we sell low on Bailey, Spring Training indicates he's not going to be good, and he has less value. See the difference? Basically.... Spring Training Stats Don't Matter

SMcGavin
03-18-2008, 12:25 AM
It's incredible how poorly the Reds media is treating Bailey, and maybe the organization as well.

You try to trade him all offseason, and the media wants him gone for a "veteran" pitcher.
You create suspect articles about his makeup and have it snowball out of control with a few bad starts.
You basically hyped him up then destroyed any trade value he has... then want to trade him.
It's just amazing how bad everything has been...

Bailey is a top 10 prospect in Baseball. He's 21 and has already made it to the majors. Let him figure it out and just stop talking about it. Let him focus on pitching and not all this other crap. I really think it's the media's creation thats starting to destroy his game.

I agree, and I think the best thing for him right now might be a year at AAA with the spotlight up in Cinci on guys like Cueto and Volquez. He has been hyped as the next coming his whole life. It shouldn't be a shock that a 21 year old kid who has never really failed in his life is a little tough to coach. I'd stick him in AAA, let him work on the breaking pitches, his control, and the little stuff (e.g. dealing with the media and coaches). He will be an asset to the Reds organization in the future and dealing him with his value at its lowest point doesn't make a lot of sense.

AmarilloRed
03-18-2008, 12:34 AM
Bailey's trade value is too low right now because of his poor spring training, so I doubt the Reds would be willing to trade him at this point. They would only get lowball offers, and not receive equitable trade value. It makes the most sense to let him work on his command, his arm strength, and his ability to deal with the media. We can then decide whether to keep him for 2009, or trade him in the 2009 off-season.

yab1112
03-18-2008, 12:56 AM
You could be talking about EV as recently as a year ago. He was struggling in the majors in multiple tries because he was rushed there. Mostly it was control problems--no one questioned his stuff. I think he is putting it all together now. Homer has just as a good a chance of doing the same.

My thoughts exactly :)

yab1112
03-18-2008, 12:57 AM
also, sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this, but how do i quote a previous post w/o copying and pasting?

JayBruce4HOF
03-18-2008, 01:02 AM
Click the "quote" button on the bottom right section of the post that you are trying to reference in your own post.

yab1112
03-18-2008, 03:50 PM
Click the "quote" button on the bottom right section of the post that you are trying to reference in your own post.

thanks:thumbup:

bianchiveloce
03-19-2008, 07:59 AM
I'd hang on to Bailey a while longer. Let's see if he can put it together. Heck, at 21 yrs old, he still is very young.

With his trade value seemingly taking a hit, it would be better to see if his AAA numbers can generate an up swing in his trade value. If his trade value increases via his AAA performance, then you decide whether to keep him or trade him. Selling him off now that his trade value has taken a hit, is not a wise choice in my opinion.

Baseball Prospectus 2008 mentions something about his less than stellar attitude towards receiving coaching. Maybe the kid just needs to be humbled a bit in order to have real growth towards being a productive Major Leaguer.

gedred69
03-19-2008, 02:53 PM
Saw him pitch Saturday against the Bosox. Sat behind HP (up aways), but a really good vantage point. What I observed, was he mixed his pitches very well,--- (he has obviously worked very hard on his curve)--to the point they could not catch up to his FB, which was getting up there. Sox fans were asking if he really threw that hard. He had tremendous stuff that day.

Here's the problem. He could not consistently throw strikes, high in the zone to start the game, then over-compensated and threw low. Witnessing this, is why I've always felt stats don't tell you always what's going on. You gotta' be there and see it. I've been on the fence on Homer because he has by more than 1 account a bit of a 'tude problem. But, what I saw of his stuff, give him some time, he could be really good. He's only 21, and as Dusty said, "It isn't easy being Homer".

Rounding Third
03-19-2008, 02:58 PM
I'd hang on to Bailey a while longer. Let's see if he can put it together. Heck, at 21 yrs old, he still is very young.

With his trade value seemingly taking a hit, it would be better to see if his AAA numbers can generate an up swing in his trade value. If his trade value increases via his AAA performance, then you decide whether to keep him or trade him. Selling him off now that his trade value has taken a hit, is not a wise choice in my opinion.

Baseball Prospectus 2008 mentions something about his less than stellar attitude towards receiving coaching. Maybe the kid just needs to be humbled a bit in order to have real growth towards being a productive Major Leaguer.

Exactly, you don't sell one of the best prospects in baseball for several year at a low point.

redsandrails
03-19-2008, 03:28 PM
I agree... and if Bailey can't cut it as a starter he might develop into a reliever down the road. While the large amount of baserunners in ST makes it seem unattractive at this point, he may chance his approach towards pitching if he fails as a starter altogether. His stuff is developing and with his skillset the possibilities are endless. At the very least a few months in AAA will boost his value so at least hold on to him for the short-term unless there is an excellent trade oppurtunity (which I doubt). Yes, if we could package Bailey and Votto for Lincecum or a starter of that caliber I'd pull the trigger but it would have to be for a player with a high ceiling, not a Blanton type.