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Highlifeman21
03-17-2008, 12:47 PM
From Gammon's blog, per mlbtraderumors...


ESPN's Peter Gammons posted to his blog yesterday; let's take a look. More negative vibes around the Reds' Homer Bailey. His apparent availability seems odd given his talent. Bailey was described by an evaluator friend of Buster Olney as "someone who thinks he's got it all figured out."

A lot of conflicting reports about Bailey. Coachable or uncoachable? Head-case or head-on-straight?

What say you?

flyer85
03-17-2008, 12:49 PM
What say you?what I do know is that he needs to go back to AAA and work on his command. His K/BB will likely be the best indicator to tell when he is ready for another shot.

RANDY IN INDY
03-17-2008, 12:55 PM
Absolutely.

Highlifeman21
03-17-2008, 12:56 PM
what I do know is that he needs to go back to AAA and work on his command. His K/BB will likely be the best indicator to tell when he is ready for another shot.

I agree that he needs more time at AAA, and honestly probably until the ASB. He just can't consistently find the strike zone at this point, and until he does so, he needs to stay in AAA. I'm not so sure his K/BB will be the best indicator as much as his BB/9 might be. In a perfect world, Bailey will increase his Ks and lower his BBs, which will greatly help his K/BB, but I'd rather his BB lower first, which IMO will be reflected by lowering his BB/9.

OnBaseMachine
03-17-2008, 01:42 PM
I'm pretty sure that the rumor of Bailey being uncoachable is false as evidenced by comments by Dusty Baker this spring. Baker said a few days ago Homer was spotted sitting and talking to Mario Soto during a full spring game.

I agree with flyer. Send him to AAA to work on his command, once he figures that out (and I believe he will), he'll be a dominant pitcher.

Benihana
03-17-2008, 01:43 PM
I agree with flyer. Send him to AAA to work on his command, once he figures that out (and I believe he will), he'll be a dominant pitcher.

Or at least have more trade value than he does now.

dougdirt
03-17-2008, 01:44 PM
I want to know how old this quote is about him 'having it all figured out'. Olney has used it before. Sometimes people get lazy in their work and use the same quote for different stories.
From what we have heard this spring is that from the start Bailey has been all ears more than once and in one of his recent games, when he was in the dugout he was talking with Soto asking for tips and advice every inning.

Joseph
03-17-2008, 01:45 PM
I'm pretty sure that the rumor of Bailey being uncoachable is false as evidenced by comments by Dusty Baker this spring. Baker said a few days ago Homer was spotted sitting and talking to Mario Soto during a full spring game.

I agree with flyer. Send him to AAA to work on his command, once he figures that out (and I believe he will), he'll be a dominant pitcher.

I'm not a Homer basher. I was opposed to trading him for Blanton in the offseason.....but, I get the impression Dusty is managing through the press in SOME of his comments. He may not be with this one, but I wonder if he's not the type to drop some praise in the press, knowing it'll help the guy[s] in the clubhouse.

Spitball
03-17-2008, 04:03 PM
I think Bailey is a victim of the hype that has been generated by his potential. History tells us that young pitchers, especially starters, take time to develop. Everyone would like to see Bailey develop now instead of later, but it isn't going to be that easily accomplished. Some things will have to change for him, but timetables for change vary from individual to individual.

He has spent the last eight or nine years developing his mechanics which are largely controlled by the subconscious mind. Those mechanics have been trained through repetition to create rote muscle memory. Changing muscle memory to perform differently is not always a quick and easy task, especially with taller pitchers.

It will be a mistake to label Bailey one way or the other at this stage of his career. He needs time to polish his game and hone/alter his muscle memory. Many take several years and Bailey could be one of those slow to develop starters. Most of us were willing to trade Bailey for Bedard this winter, but look how long it took him to develop into a reliable, front of the rotation starter.

Bailey needs more time in triple A, but that isn't a bad thing. Actually, it makes him typical of most young starting pitchers.

BRM
03-17-2008, 04:07 PM
I saw this on C. Trent's blog.



I've got to say, Homer Bailey has had the most disappointing spring. It will be very interesting to see how he reacts in Louisville. The problem is he can dominate Class AAA hitters with his pure stuff, but not big league hitters. One opposing hitter said of Bailey's fastball -- (making a motion of a straight fastball) "give me that (stuff) in June."

princeton
03-17-2008, 04:08 PM
History tells us that young pitchers, especially starters, take time to develop.

I think that's what we have to hope for.

but we also know that many underachievers are satisfied with what they can already do, and have too much inertia to change their direction

SunDeck
03-17-2008, 05:27 PM
FWIW, from the Washington Post:



[SP] Erik Bedard Left-Handed No. 1 Starter

Wednesday, March 28, 2007; H07

Several years ago, when the Orioles were trying to acquire pitcher Tim Hudson, the Athletics insisted any deal include Bedard. The Orioles were reluctant because in Bedard they saw the potential for an ace. Though he often struggled with command, and his pitch count often passed 100 by the fifth inning, Bedard showed flashes of brilliance. He was stubborn and was considered almost uncoachable, but the Orioles were wary to trade him because of his potential. Several years later, Bedard has finally achieved ace status. Late in March, Perlozzo named him the Opening Day starter, the first time a lefty has had that distinction since 1997. Bedard will be expected to lead a staff that includes two youngsters and two veterans. Not much has changed with Bedard's stoic demeanor. But scouts continue to rave about him, and the Orioles are thankful they did not trade him.

nate
03-17-2008, 05:31 PM
FWIW, from the Washington Post:

Hmm, that reminds me of someone else...can't put my finger on it, though... :cool:

Matt700wlw
03-17-2008, 05:33 PM
FWIW, from the Washington Post:

That's unpossible. Young pitchers can't develop.

wheels
03-17-2008, 07:05 PM
I'd be fine with Bailey staying in AAA for the entire season.

Volquez and Cueto have seemingly emerged, making it less imperative rush Homer.

He's only 21. Give him another full season to make sure he's ready. I'm confident in his ability to find his way, but it might take some time.

Aronchis
03-17-2008, 07:09 PM
I'd be fine with Bailey staying in AAA for the entire season.

Volquez and Cueto have seemingly emerged, making it less imperative rush Homer.

He's only 21. Give him another full season to make sure he's ready. I'm confident in his ability to find his way, but it might take some time.

Then comes mid-season, Arroyo is hurting after Dusty's abuse, Cueto is running down on energy(assuming he can do well through 6I's) as most youngsters do.

The chances of Bailey staying in AAA the whole season is pretty low. I think Maloney may even be popping his head for a few starts as well. If either throw well in AAA, they will be up at some point. The more interesting thing is if either actually knocks a incumbent from a starting spot.

Better than most years, when the Reds had nothing more than Van Poppel or Steve Paris types hanging around.

*BaseClogger*
03-17-2008, 10:38 PM
Then comes mid-season, Arroyo is hurting after Dusty's abuse, Cueto is running down on energy(assuming he can do well through 6I's) as most youngsters do.

The chances of Bailey staying in AAA the whole season is pretty low. I think Maloney may even be popping his head for a few starts as well. If either throw well in AAA, they will be up at some point. The more interesting thing is if either actually knocks a incumbent from a starting spot.

Better than most years, when the Reds had nothing more than Van Poppel or Steve Paris types hanging around.

And that is why Fogg/Belisle is in the bullpen...

Ga_Red
03-17-2008, 11:09 PM
some observations:
1) Homer as has been stated has command issues this ST
2)but when got his stuff over, he fooled nobody.
3) He's throwinf his fb up, flat and 90-93
4) his curve is more rainbow than sharp breaking from
the windup and never over from the stretch.
5) His slider has been in the dirt from the stretch more times than not.
6) he has been pitching behind consistently
7) He's so slow to the plate from the stretch, that Javy could steal on him...

Pitching ahead with command he can regain with reps at AAA...

his flat fb and timing to the plate, have soured me bigtime
on Homer, to the extent I'm of the opinion that a trade would probably be wise, if possible....

Spitball
03-17-2008, 11:36 PM
I'd be fine with Bailey staying in AAA for the entire season.

Volquez and Cueto have seemingly emerged, making it less imperative rush Homer.

He's only 21. Give him another full season to make sure he's ready. I'm confident in his ability to find his way, but it might take some time.

That makes sense to me. Why even compare Bailey to Cueto or Volquez? Are they not on the same team? Bailey might not be ready, but that doesn't mean he won't have the better career. He simply is not there yet.

sonny
03-17-2008, 11:42 PM
some observations:
1) Homer as has been stated has command issues this ST
2)but when got his stuff over, he fooled nobody.
3) He's throwinf his fb up, flat and 90-93
4) his curve is more rainbow than sharp breaking from
the windup and never over from the stretch.
5) His slider has been in the dirt from the stretch more times than not.
6) he has been pitching behind consistently
7) He's so slow to the plate from the stretch, that Javy could steal on him...

Pitching ahead with command he can regain with reps at AAA...

his flat fb and timing to the plate, have soured me bigtime
on Homer, to the extent I'm of the opinion that a trade would probably be wise, if possible....

Its all between the ears. He's got the ability to tear it up on the mound, but something tells me the emergence of Volquez and Cueto has him messed up in the head. I think his feelings are hurt.:cry:

Spitball
03-18-2008, 12:02 AM
Its all between the ears. He's got the ability to tear it up on the mound, but something tells me the emergence of Volquez and Cueto has him messed up in the head. I think his feelings are hurt.:cry:

Why does it have to be "between the ears." Can it not be something else? Maybe he just isn't ready? Schilling was 25 before he made a starting rotation. Bedard was 26. Many, many very good to great starting pitchers were not ready at 21 years of age and there was nothing wrong with "between the ears." They simply were not ready. How can there possibly be a fair psychological evaluation of anybody through newspaper stories and second hand stories?

Topcat
03-18-2008, 12:08 AM
[QUOTE=OnBaseMachine;1573732]I'm pretty sure that the rumor of Bailey being uncoachable is false as evidenced by comments by Dusty Baker this spring. Baker said a few days ago Homer was spotted sitting and talking to Mario Soto during a full spring game.

I agree with flyer. Send him to AAA to work on his command, once he figures that out (and I believe he will), he'll be a dominant pitcher.[/QUOTE
Perfect example of a kid who listens to wise people and tunes out fools. Maybe he knows his strengths and listens to coaches with brains
:dunno:

OnBaseMachine
03-18-2008, 12:23 AM
I don't think Homer Bailey has an attitude problem, I don't think he's a headcase or any of that nonsense, he's simply just not ready for the major leagues yet. He's 21 years old, so what if he's not ready, he's got plenty of time. The Reds (IMO) rushed him last year. Wayne was handling him fine until he caved in to the fans (and possibly Bob) and called him up in early June when he was clearly not dominating AAA hitters. As mentioned earlier, he's still only 21 years old, most guys his age are still in Single-A or AA.

Start him in Louisville and let him dominate hitters like he did during the 2006 season. Despite having an awful spring, he did show a few improvements: (1. His changeup looked good at times. He fooled Jorse Posada a few times last Monday night. (2. His K rate was solid at 9 strikeouts in 10.2 innings (including strikeouts of Posada/Big Papi/Manny). The stuff is obviously there...he just needs to learn to command his pitches better and gain consistency with the curveball. The changeup is making progress, probably thanks to Mario Soto.

My expectation is Bailey will go to Louisville and post great strikeout rates (10.0 K/9 or so) hit rates but it will be his BB/9 that tells the tale. If it takes him three months or a year, he needs to prove he has improved his control before getting a recall to Cincinnati. I'm confident he will make the adjustments needed to be a great pitcher. It's not an if, but how soon. I'm salivating at the thought of him putting it together by 2009 and and giving us a 2009 rotation of Aaron Harang, Johnny Cueto, Edinson Volquez, Bronson Arroyo, and Homer Bailey. That's potentially one of the best rotations in baseball.

wheels
03-18-2008, 01:40 AM
Volquez is three years older than Bailey. It's his time.

Cueto's looking like something of an anomaly, a freak if you will.

Bailey's just doing what most 21 year olds do. Hopefully he'll rock out in L'ville, impress next spring, and finally make the big club out of camp.

Then again, maybe he won't make it until he's 24. It doesn't really matter all that much to me, as long as he just makes it.

Ravenlord
03-18-2008, 02:46 AM
Baker said a few days ago Homer was spotted sitting and talking to Mario Soto during a full spring game.i think i would kill to be the fly on the wall for that conversation

OnBaseMachine
03-20-2008, 11:06 PM
Bailey on Bailey

Homer Bailey says hes taken a what-me-worry outlook about the rotation.

The only thing I can control is what I do out there, Bailey said. I worry about what I do out there. Anything else, whatever decisions are made, aren't my decisions. I cant control them.

Bailey had a good start Thursday night. He went four innings, allowing a run on three hits in the Reds' 4-0 loss to the Minnesota Twins.

Bailey says hes working with pitching coach Dick Pole to get where he needs to be.

Ive cleaned up my mechanics," Bailey said. "Dick and I have been on the same page as far as things to work on. Hes giving me a lot of feedback. Weve been working real well together.

While Bailey says hes not worrying about the competition, he knows where he stands and knows he could end up in Triple-A.

Id go Louisville and do whatever it takes to get back, he said. But I see how well Johnny (Cueto) and (Edinson) Volquez have been throwing. Theyve shown what they can do. Theyve shown they can get people out at this level. Im very happy for those guys.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

OldXOhio
03-20-2008, 11:28 PM
Bailey on Bailey

Homer Bailey says hes taken a what-me-worry outlook about the rotation.

The only thing I can control is what I do out there, Bailey said. I worry about what I do out there. Anything else, whatever decisions are made, aren't my decisions. I cant control them.

Bailey had a good start Thursday night. He went four innings, allowing a run on three hits in the Reds' 4-0 loss to the Minnesota Twins.

Bailey says hes working with pitching coach Dick Pole to get where he needs to be.

Ive cleaned up my mechanics," Bailey said. "Dick and I have been on the same page as far as things to work on. Hes giving me a lot of feedback. Weve been working real well together.

While Bailey says hes not worrying about the competition, he knows where he stands and knows he could end up in Triple-A.

Id go Louisville and do whatever it takes to get back, he said. But I see how well Johnny (Cueto) and (Edinson) Volquez have been throwing. Theyve shown what they can do. Theyve shown they can get people out at this level. Im very happy for those guys.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

Does this kid sound arrogant and uncoachable or what? :rolleyes:

reds44
03-20-2008, 11:29 PM
Does this kid sound arrogant and uncoachable or what? :rolleyes:
Honestly who cares?

He needs to start pitching better, I know that.

Highlifeman21
03-20-2008, 11:40 PM
Honestly who cares?

He needs to start pitching better, I know that.

Quoted and bolded for emphasis of truth.

I just hope he gets it figured out by 2009. That's the year I care about.

RFS62
03-20-2008, 11:42 PM
He's saying the right things.

*BaseClogger*
03-21-2008, 04:10 AM
He's saying the right things.

One step ahead of Dusty :lol: