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OnBaseMachine
03-19-2008, 06:10 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1575690#post1575690

M2
03-19-2008, 06:16 PM
Wild guess on the return if this is true - Miguel Olivo.

Matt700wlw
03-19-2008, 06:19 PM
From the Reds:

The Reds today traded to the Kansas City Royals RHP Brad Salmon in exchange for a player to be named later or cash.

Joseph
03-19-2008, 06:19 PM
Wild guess on the return if this is true - Miguel Olivo.

My thinking exactly.

Question is, was Olivo signed to a MiLB contract or a Major League deal? If so, I think he can't be dealt until June 15th per the CBA.

Matt700wlw
03-19-2008, 06:20 PM
nm

Guacarock
03-19-2008, 06:21 PM
Olivo would make some sense -- Dominican, clobbers southpaw pitching, has a strong arm and decent enough defense.

Wonder if Freel is also involved? KC seems like one of the teams that could use his services. Probably would help balance out the salaries.

Raisor
03-19-2008, 06:22 PM
From the Reds:

The Reds today traded to the Kansas City Royals RHP Brad Salmon in exchange for a player to be named later or cash.

CASH!

Do we get a share?

Buckeye33
03-19-2008, 06:22 PM
Wow, sure would have thought he was worth more than $$ or a PTBNL. Never know about what player you might get back for him though.

edabbs44
03-19-2008, 06:24 PM
I guess Krivsky has a lot of faith in the bullpen.

Salmon's not an all-star, but he could provide some nice cheap depth.

BRM
03-19-2008, 06:25 PM
My thinking exactly.

Question is, was Olivo signed to a MiLB contract or a Major League deal? If so, I think he can't be dealt until June 15th per the CBA.

This is what's on the Royals website.



Signed C Miguel Olivo to a one-year contract with a mutual option for 2009

boognish
03-19-2008, 06:26 PM
BRM,

Is Olivo able to waive his contractual right and accept a trade?

BRM
03-19-2008, 06:30 PM
BRM,

Is Olivo able to waive his contractual right and accept a trade?

I have no idea.

klw
03-19-2008, 06:30 PM
Not a surprise after he was taken off the 40 man. Never seemed like he was highly valued by the current regime.

OnBaseMachine
03-19-2008, 06:30 PM
Olivo has some nice 'pop' (22 doubles, 16 HR in '06, 20 doubles, 16 HR in '07 in pitcher friendly Florida) but absolutely no plate discipline at all (23 walks in 882 atbats past two seasons). It would make sense to target a Dominican catcher though for Cueto and Volquez. I know we have Valentin but I definitely don't want him back there with Cueto and Volquez pitching.

Cyclone792
03-19-2008, 06:35 PM
CASH!

Do we get a share?

Nope, but I'm betting Uncle Carl has already tried to persuade Bob to take the cash.

klw
03-19-2008, 06:36 PM
Mabe the return is Mike Moustakas and they can't reveal until after the draft anniversary. :)

RedsManRick
03-19-2008, 06:36 PM
They must really be worried about Dave Ross's back. Olivo is in no way better than him. The communication with Cueto idea makes some sense.

Brad Salmon is like the pitching version of Chris Denorfia. He did everything he was supposed to do in the minors and just wasn't given a chance.

princeton
03-19-2008, 06:37 PM
probably part of the contract signed by Salmon after he went through waivers and resigned with Reds last December: come to major league camp, and if you don't make 40 man this spring, we will trade or release you if you so desire.

Reds probably have a list of 5 suspects to look over, and if they don't like any of 'em, they just take cash

Highlifeman21
03-19-2008, 06:38 PM
Not sure why Krivsky gave up on Salmon, but I wish the best to him in KC.

I hope the return for him is better than our favorite, typical Krivsky acquisition in this type deals: pile 'o' cash.

edabbs44
03-19-2008, 06:39 PM
They must really be worried about Dave Ross's back.

Maybe not. If Olivo can't be traded until June 15th, then it wouldn't really make much sense. Unless Ross is done for the year and they figure Bako/Javy can get them to June 15th.

M2
03-19-2008, 06:56 PM
Salmon joins an illustrious list of former Reds pitchers to show up in KC in recent years - Brett Tomko, John Bale, Luke Hudson, Jason Standridge, Chris Booker, Seth Etherton, Elmer Dessens, Scott Sullivan and Dennys Reyes.

Kc61
03-19-2008, 06:57 PM
Brad Salmon is like the pitching version of Chris Denorfia. He did everything he was supposed to do in the minors and just wasn't given a chance.

That's one way to look at it. My take is that Salmon's lifetime minor league ERA was 4.13 and his improvement came in the last couple of years (he's now 28). He was indeed then given a major league chance last year, pitching 26 games in relief for the Reds with, again, a 4.12 ERA. He was never a highly touted prospect.

My guess is that Salmon and the Reds mutually agreed that there was no point in him spending another year at AAA with this organization. And he certainly wasn't going to make the major league team this year, under any scenario I've seen.

pedro
03-19-2008, 06:59 PM
can't get out LHP, walks lots of guys, already 28. Good luck in KC, hope you like BBQ.

lollipopcurve
03-19-2008, 07:00 PM
My guess is it's cash -- usually is.

KronoRed
03-19-2008, 07:11 PM
I've always been a fan of pile o cash.

reds44
03-19-2008, 07:11 PM
/Was hoping for Joey Gathright.

KronoRed
03-19-2008, 07:14 PM
/Was hoping for Joey Gathright.

For Salmon?

Besides, we have Patterson to do the same job.

puca
03-19-2008, 07:14 PM
That's one way to look at it. My take is that Salmon's lifetime minor league ERA was 4.13 and his improvement came in the last couple of years (he's now 28). He was indeed then given a major league chance last year, pitching 26 games in relief for the Reds with, again, a 4.12 ERA. He was never a highly touted prospect.

My guess is that Salmon and the Reds mutually agreed that there was no point in him spending another year at AAA with this organization. And he certainly wasn't going to make the major league team this year, under any scenario I've seen.

Sounds pretty likely to me.

He made it through waivers already, so it's not like other teams were chomping at the bit to pick him up.

Matt700wlw
03-19-2008, 07:15 PM
This is probably very much like the Cody Ross trade...a player who wasn't going to get a chance on this team, but deserved a chance with somebody.

So...now he has one.

reds44
03-19-2008, 07:17 PM
For Salmon?

Besides, we have Patterson to do the same job.
When I saw the thread, I had hope. Lord knows we need somebody to play CF.

Mr. Gathright had a .307 BA/.372 OBP line last year. If he could repeat that line this year he'd be a really good leadoff hitter. Granted, he hits for no power at all and is a pretty awful basestealer considering his speed.

But hey, he's always been a favorite of mine. That probably would change if he ever was a Red though. :D

Tom Servo
03-19-2008, 07:27 PM
I'll miss you, Brad. Remember to always swim upstream and avoid bears.

RedsManRick
03-19-2008, 07:28 PM
That's one way to look at it. My take is that Salmon's lifetime minor league ERA was 4.13 and his improvement came in the last couple of years (he's now 28). He was indeed then given a major league chance last year, pitching 26 games in relief for the Reds with, again, a 4.12 ERA. He was never a highly touted prospect.

My guess is that Salmon and the Reds mutually agreed that there was no point in him spending another year at AAA with this organization. And he certainly wasn't going to make the major league team this year, under any scenario I've seen.

Because we're in a position to trade away league average relievers for virtually nothing? Because we have too many relievers who can strike out a guy per inning already? If Brad is capable of putting up a low 4.00s ERA, he should be part of our bullpen. To me, this is further evidence why you just don't go give big contracts, especially multi-year ones to guys like Mike Stanton

That he's 28 with virtually no major league experience is no fault of his. How a guy can dominate the way he did in 2006 and then get a meager cup of coffee in the worst baseball in the NL in 2007 baffles me.

Good luck in KC Brad! I think he'll do well.

fearofpopvol1
03-19-2008, 07:30 PM
I don't like this trade, especially if it's just for cash. If it's for catching depth, that would be a plus.

Salmon was not elite by any means, but with a lot of questionable arms for the bullpen, I would've liked to have seen him in the fold. I like Salmon better than McBeth.

Ltlabner
03-19-2008, 07:31 PM
An aside...

Are teams limited in how they can use Pile O'Cash they get in trades? Can they just pocket the money, or can it only be spent/used in certian ways?

Going from memory it seems Pile O'Cash is a common return in a lot of Wayne's deals. I almost wonder if they use that to fund draft signing bonus and rule V plays. Get enough Pile's O'Cash and you can combine them to up the payroll a bit even if overall revenues have not increased. Sort of a creative financing tool if you will.

fearofpopvol1
03-19-2008, 07:32 PM
Even if it is a "pile o cash," it ain't going to be much, not for him.

pedro
03-19-2008, 07:35 PM
He was very overrated by folks here who would never admit that despite being able to strike people out he had poor control and gets destroyed by LHP.

red-in-la
03-19-2008, 08:07 PM
Salmon joins an illustrious list of former Reds pitchers to show up in KC in recent years - Brett Tomko, John Bale, Luke Hudson, Jason Standridge, Chris Booker, Seth Etherton, Elmer Dessens, Scott Sullivan and Dennys Reyes.

KC must be downstream......;)

klw
03-19-2008, 08:48 PM
I'll miss you, Brad. Remember to always swim upstream and avoid bears.

http://www.novaksblog.com/pictures/moments_frozen_in_time_3rd_part/salmon_bear.jpg

I doubt that this move will result in Olivo coming to the Reds. Why would the Royals move him at this point of the year, having just brought him in? They do have Buck and a 3rd catcher on the 40 man. But the other guy (his name escapes me) is a 28 year old with no mlb time. Unless he is having a Hamiltonesque spring or Olivo is a pain on the clubhouse, I don't see him or Buck getting moved for Salmon. I expect this will result in a minor league guy or cash and nothing much else.

Cedric
03-19-2008, 09:02 PM
A worse Jose Acevado or Chris Reitsma.

Oh to be one of the loved by Redzoners all over the world. This guy will be someone we think of in ten years and just imagine "that guy was really named Brad Salmon?"

flyer85
03-19-2008, 09:26 PM
I be shocked if it was anyone near a major league roster.

redsmetz
03-19-2008, 09:38 PM
An aside...

Are teams limited in how they can use Pile O'Cash they get in trades? Can they just pocket the money, or can it only be spent/used in certian ways?

Going from memory it seems Pile O'Cash is a common return in a lot of Wayne's deals. I almost wonder if they use that to fund draft signing bonus and rule V plays. Get enough Pile's O'Cash and you can combine them to up the payroll a bit even if overall revenues have not increased. Sort of a creative financing tool if you will.

I may have missed some, but in looking through the transactions since Krivsky has been GM, quite a number of trades Krivsky made were PTBNL or cash considerations, but I only found one listed in which we got cash - Brendan Harris. Cody Ross, according to baseball-reference was sold to Florida, but I think originally it was stated as a PTBNL or cash.

Frankly, I was surprised by how many transactions we made in which we got cash back from the other clubs - probably at least a dozen.

The main point is that "Pile O Cash" isn't really Krivsky's M.O. I can't say what we'll get in return for Salmon, but this is very typical of what Krivsky has done. He has plied a number of players from our system for other minor leaguers.

flyer85
03-19-2008, 09:40 PM
Hopefully Brad will get a chance, he wasn't going to get in Cincinnati ... time to move on.

remdog
03-19-2008, 10:09 PM
The Reds got about what Salmon was worth, cash or a PTNL. He could have been signed for the wavier price in the off season and no one went for it. (famous shrug)

Rem

red-in-la
03-19-2008, 10:19 PM
The Reds got about what Salmon was worth, cash or a PTNL. He could have been signed for the wavier price in the off season and no one went for it. (famous shrug)

Rem

:dunno:

jojo
03-19-2008, 10:47 PM
http://www.novaksblog.com/pictures/moments_frozen_in_time_3rd_part/salmon_bear.jpg

I doubt that this move will result in Olivo coming to the Reds. Why would the Royals move him at this point of the year, having just brought him in? They do have Buck and a 3rd catcher on the 40 man. But the other guy (his name escapes me) is a 28 year old with no mlb time. Unless he is having a Hamiltonesque spring or Olivo is a pain on the clubhouse, I don't see him or Buck getting moved for Salmon. I expect this will result in a minor league guy or cash and nothing much else.

Is that bear named Adam or Brandon? :cool:

TRF
03-19-2008, 10:53 PM
He was very overrated by folks here who would never admit that despite being able to strike people out he had poor control and gets destroyed by LHP.

If the return was a C then I'm ok with it. If it's for cash, well it couldn't be enough to lose the depth he provided. I'll wait on the return though.

Salmon had value though. What's telling to me is they didn't trade Majewski. Couldn't get a ptbnl for him?

flyer85
03-19-2008, 11:00 PM
My guess is that they aren' going to get much ... certainly no one capable of contributing in the majors.

TRF
03-19-2008, 11:03 PM
My guess is that they aren' going to get much ... certainly no one capable of contributing in the majors.

Then what was the point? Roster crunch because of the mighty Gary Majewski?

flyer85
03-19-2008, 11:07 PM
Then what was the point? thought he had no future with the club and decidedto take whatever they could get. IIRC, he was removed from the 40 man roster over the winter.

WMR
03-19-2008, 11:08 PM
Majewski has a future but Salmon does not?

TRF
03-19-2008, 11:10 PM
Majewski has a future but Salmon does not?

That was my point. Salmon at least produced somewhat last year, Maj? simply dreadful. And he owns a 40 man roster spot.

redsmetz
03-19-2008, 11:10 PM
Then what was the point? Roster crunch because of the mighty Gary Majewski?

Salmon didn't pose a roster problem. He was non-tendered at the end of last year and resigned with the Reds on a minor league deal, so he wasn't on the 40 man roster.

Wayne has made moves like this, getting another minor leaguer in place of one not in our plans. We'll see how those folks pan out over time. To me, this is no big deal.

remdog
03-19-2008, 11:11 PM
More likely that they can't unload the Majic Man on anyone. And, with that grievence still pending.....well, you wouldn't want to admit he has no value, would ya'? :p:

Rem

WMR
03-19-2008, 11:13 PM
Hehe, the longest grievance without a resolution in the history of MLB.

I guess MLB is still "gathering information." :rolleyes:

TRF
03-19-2008, 11:18 PM
Salmon didn't pose a roster problem. He was non-tendered at the end of last year and resigned with the Reds on a minor league deal, so he wasn't on the 40 man roster.

Wayne has made moves like this, getting another minor leaguer in place of one not in our plans. We'll see how those folks pan out over time. To me, this is no big deal.

To me though it's a krivsky failing. Sometimes he makes moves for no reason, and often for no return. Same thing happened to Medlock. Like the Reds NEEDED Cantu, who was then let go for nothing. Cody Ross? What was the point? Guervara exposed and likely to make SD's bullpen to free up a spot to select a guy eventually sent back and traded to the freaking Mexican league. It's like the man starts twitching if he hasn't made a deal in a few weaks. Salmon had good K numbers, and owned RH hitters, absolutely owned them. Yeah, I wouldn't put him in against a LH, but so what? Against RH, he was as dominant as anyone in the NL last year in his limited time. Is it his fault Narron had no clue HOW to use him? He'll see plenty of time in KC's pen i bet, and while I feel sure the Reds improved pen can get along without him, if this trade is indeed for cash, it's a waste.

WMR
03-19-2008, 11:19 PM
To me though it's a krivsky failing. Sometimes he makes moves for no reason, and often for no return. Same thing happened to Medlock. Like the Reds NEEDED Cantu, who was then let go for nothing. Cody Ross? What was the point? Guervara exposed and likely to make SD's bullpen to free up a spot to select a guy eventually sent back and traded to the freaking Mexican league. It's like the man starts twitching if he hasn't made a deal in a few weaks. Salmon had good K numbers, and owned RH hitters, absolutely owned them. Yeah, I wouldn't put him in against a LH, but so what? Against RH, he was as dominant as anyone in the NL last year in his limited time. Is it his fault Narron had no clue HOW to use him? He'll see plenty of time in KC's pen i bet, and while I feel sure the Reds improved pen can get along without him, if this trade is indeed for cash, it's a waste.

Agree 100%!!!!!!

Better to be dominant against right-handed hitters than horrible against both!

(ROOGY??)

Matt700wlw
03-19-2008, 11:24 PM
Hehe, the longest grievance without a resolution in the history of MLB.

I guess MLB is still "gathering information." :rolleyes:

I don't think it was anything more that a PR move...

Blitz Dorsey
03-20-2008, 12:21 AM
No way it's Olivo. Anytime "player to be named" is in the deal, it refers to a minor league player.

But it's a moot point. My money is on "cash."

KoryMac5
03-20-2008, 12:36 AM
As a fan it is really hard to wrap your mind around the idea of trading a player for "cash". When you make a deal for a player you get to see his stats, look up the scouting report, and voice your opinion on whether or not it was a good deal. You don't get any of these options when you trade a player for cash. Maybe Krivs can announce at the next signing "Adam Dunn's contract extension was made possible by a grant from the Brad Salmon foundation". That might make some feel better about the move.

SteelSD
03-20-2008, 01:04 AM
That was my point. Salmon at least produced somewhat last year, Maj? simply dreadful. And he owns a 40 man roster spot.

I'd have to agree. The Reds traded away a 27 year-old guy with the following peripherals in AAA last season:

8.37 K/9
0.63 HR/0
3.56 BB/9

Yet, they traded for a guy (Marcus McBeth) who ended up producing the following peripherals as a 26 year-old pitching convert:

7.56 K/9
0.86 HR/9
2.15 BB/9

Career MiLB numbers?

Salmon:

8.04 K/9
0.48 HR/9
3.36 BB/9

McBeth:

7.78 K/9
0.92 HR/9
3.20 BB/0

Questions about philosophy abound.

RedlegJake
03-20-2008, 01:26 AM
Well, simply put, the Reds seem to form opinions on certain players and are really unlikely to change those opinions founded or unfounded. Salmon was one. They let Guevara go for nothing at all and look at his numbers. Denorfia brought McBeth but I don't think the Reds ever really liked his game. Yet it takes them forever to give on other guys who could easily be argued aren't anywhere near as productive at the same age.

Ron Madden
03-20-2008, 04:47 AM
I'd rather pay other Clubs to take the likes of Stanton and Majewski off our hands, than to sell young guys like Salmon for little or no return.

Sometimes I wonder just what in the heck Wayne is thinking.


:(

mth123
03-20-2008, 06:18 AM
Salmon traded to KC for PTBNL.
Reds lack power on the bench.
A RH 1B platoon guy who can also play corner OF spots while hitting in the 5 or 6 spot would be useful.
Justin Huber is out of options with no place to play in KC... Hmmm

edabbs44
03-20-2008, 06:43 AM
Salmon traded to KC for PTBNL.
Reds lack power on the bench.
A RH 1B platoon guy who can also play corner OF spots while hitting in the 5 or 6 spot would be useful.
Justin Huber is out of options with no place to play n KC... Hmmm

That would be awesome. But why would Huber have to be named later?

mth123
03-20-2008, 07:17 AM
That would be awesome. But why would Huber have to be named later?

Waiting for the Reds to make another deal to clear room on the roster. If another deal doesn't come and there is no room for Huber, then the Reds take cash or a lower level guy. No sense in acquiring Huber if Freel, Hopper and other clutter that the team feels it must keep can't be moved and leave no room. The Reds would simply have to expose Huber if they think they need to send him down. As of now, the Reds are going to have Freel, Hopper, a catcher, a LHPH and some one who can play SS taking up the 5 bench spots. Since Huber isn't the catcher, SS or LHPH, there is no room for him unless Freel or Hopper goes.

princeton
03-20-2008, 07:22 AM
Well, simply put, the Reds seem to form opinions on certain players and are really unlikely to change those opinions founded or unfounded.

the opinions are "founded"-- do you think that we're not watching what those players can do?-- and really, forming opinions is pretty much their job.

if a guy looks like he'll give only bad performances at the major league level, then the Reds owe it to us to keep them in the minors. Sometimes you'll see teams that will actually give a guy many major league games in which to fail. If a guy is doomed to fail, it's better for team not to have to go through that.

Salmon was viewed by Reds as emergency major leaguer at best. He performed well in that role. We brought him into camp in case we needed an emergency major leaguer early in the year. We did not, and now he moves on to a team that actually has to carry emergency major leaguers on the major league team. Good for him.

nate
03-20-2008, 08:04 AM
Is there a difference between a "PTBNL" and "future considerations?"

redsmetz
03-20-2008, 08:30 AM
the opinions are "founded"-- do you think that we're not watching what those players can do?-- and really, forming opinions is pretty much their job.

if a guy looks like he'll give only bad performances at the major league level, then the Reds owe it to us to keep them in the minors. Sometimes you'll see teams that will actually give a guy many major league games in which to fail. If a guy is doomed to fail, it's better for team not to have to go through that.

Salmon was viewed by Reds as emergency major leaguer at best. He performed well in that role. We brought him into camp in case we needed an emergency major leaguer early in the year. We did not, and now he moves on to a team that actually has to carry emergency major leaguers on the major league team. Good for him.

Very well stated. Frankly, I think it speaks volumes about the growing depth of our pitching - I'm thinking of that article yesterday about the effect of adding Cordero, for instance.

Certainly we have some players on the ML roster who aren't stellar - folks have mentioned Stanton and Majewski, but I don't think Salmon takes the place of those guys. I think some are correct that the Reds will see how Stanton starts out the season and if it's as unproductive, then he'll go. Likewise, it could well be that Majewski isn't being moved because of the grievance (I disagree that the grievance was filed as "window dressing", as someone put it; but I can't for the life of me figure what on earth is taking MLB so long to decide the thing).

I just didn't see Salmon in the big league club's plans - best to move him for something, IMO.

jojo
03-20-2008, 09:19 AM
Salmon was freely available to the world in December with no takers. He really had zero trade value and no future in Cincy. I think it's a classy move for Krivsky to find a good home for Salmon. Some times trades aren't about your return.

remdog
03-20-2008, 10:18 AM
I disagree that the grievance was filed as "window dressing"

Well then why was it filed? To highlight Krivsky's mistake of not requesting all medical records before completeing the trade?

Rem

backbencher
03-20-2008, 10:42 AM
Salmon was freely available to the world in December with no takers. He really had zero trade value and no future in Cincy. I think it's a classy move for Krivsky to find a good home for Salmon. Some times trades aren't about your return.

Agreed with this and with princeton. There no doubt was a written or handshake deal with Salmon last December. The Reds benefit because the next Salmon will know that the Reds will give him a tryout and an opportunity to leave if he wants it.

OnBaseMachine
03-20-2008, 10:49 AM
Fay says the PTBNL won't be named until after Opening Day.

westofyou
03-20-2008, 10:52 AM
Sometimes you'll see teams that will actually give a guy many major league games in which to fail. If a guy is doomed to fail, it's better for team not to have to go through that.

That can be termed the "Paul Householder Rule"

princeton
03-20-2008, 11:06 AM
he could blossom. Brendan Donnelly was in a similar position in Reds organization, and he went on to help Angels win a WS. Of course Donnelly discovered chemicals on the way out

redsmetz
03-20-2008, 11:15 AM
Well then why was it filed? To highlight Krivsky's mistake of not requesting all medical records before completeing the trade?

Rem

The real question is, if it was "window dressing", then why hasn't it been settled and dismissed as clearly unfounded. Seriously, I have no idea why this thing is dragging out, but if it was merely fluff and a CYA, then it should have been closed out eons ago. That would be the easiest thing for MLB to do if there was no merit and a case of caveat emptor. To suggest it was filed simply t cover a mistake gives no explanation as to why the thing is still open.

REDREAD
03-20-2008, 01:11 PM
I don't think it was anything more that a PR move...

Yep, if Wayne had a legitimate chance to win the grievence, he would've filed it quickly. Instead, he stalled until the deadline.

Wayne was embarrassed and humilated. The grievance was filed purely for his benefit, in a sad attempt to save face. Typical "It just can't be my fault" rear covering by an executive.

My guess is that MLB has already ruled against the Reds, and Wayne is just hoping no one asked him about it.

REDREAD
03-20-2008, 01:14 PM
No way it's Olivo. Anytime "player to be named" is in the deal, it refers to a minor league player.

But it's a moot point. My money is on "cash."


Not always, Mark Lewis was a player to be named when the Reds picked up Wells from Detroit. Bowden didn't want to lose Lewis until after the season was over, so he made him a player to be named.

There's other examples to. It could be a major league player. Not very likely though that the Royals give up a major leaguer for Salmon.

Sometimes the player to be named is conditional on how the guy performs as well. Bowden traded a pitcher (I think it was Hammond) to the Marlins and the condition was that if Hammond won 15 games, he'd get Carrasco in return, otherwise it was a less thought of player.

SunDeck
03-20-2008, 01:38 PM
CASH!



You can save cash....

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/10/26/amburgy_B11.0.jpg

with Kash.


Seriously, I would like to have hung on to Salmon- I think he's a keeper. But for some reason, he just doesn't have any traction with the Reds. Good luck to him.

redsmetz
03-20-2008, 03:26 PM
Yep, if Wayne had a legitimate chance to win the grievence, he would've filed it quickly. Instead, he stalled until the deadline.

Wayne was embarrassed and humilated. The grievance was filed purely for his benefit, in a sad attempt to save face. Typical "It just can't be my fault" rear covering by an executive.

My guess is that MLB has already ruled against the Reds, and Wayne is just hoping no one asked him about it.

How is there any logic to this notion? MLB has ruled and they haven't announced it yet? That just seems highly implausible. Don't misunderstand, I'm not suggesting that we will prevail or that we even really have a chance of succeeding, but if it's as frivilous as some suggest, MLB would have issued a ruling eons ago and if it's been decided, it would have been announced.

Ltlabner
03-20-2008, 04:05 PM
Funny in all this talk about why the grevience has taken so long it never seems to be mentioned that the friend to all of baseball, Bud Selig, is the one running the show. The same guy people here love to point out as inept, clueless and dolt. So is it any suprise that the handling of the grevience process is as slow as molasses?

Nah....Wayne's an idiot. That's the only reasonable explination.

OnBaseMachine
03-20-2008, 10:45 PM
Great deal by Wayne if this is true.


PTBNL?

I got a tip today that the talk around the Kansas City Royals camp was that Blake Johnson is the player-to-be-named in the Brad Salmon trade.

Johnson fits profile of the kind of player the Reds would want for Salmon. Johnson is a 22-year-old right-hander. He went 9-6 with a 3.28 ERA last year for Wilmington of the Carolina League.

He was the Dodgers’ second-round pick in 2004. The Royals got him as part of a trade for Elmer Dessens in 2006. Wayne Krivsky wouldn’t give many clues about the PTBNL, only saying it would not be someone on the Opening Day 25-man roster.

The Reds have been trying to stockpile arms. A 22-year-old who’s been successful in High A would be nice to add.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

OnBaseMachine
03-20-2008, 10:55 PM
A mini scouting report on Johnson from BA:

"Blake we've seen quite a bit," Moore said. "He's a very projectable righthander, an overhand breaking ball pitcher that has a chance to be a knockout pitch for him. He has a fastball that was up to 94. He's very athletic, very intelligent.

MLB.com:

In the second round the Dodgers took Blake Johnson, a right-handed pitcher from Parkview Baptist School in Baton Rouge, La. He is 6-foot-4, 195 and has been compared by White to a young Kevin Brown. Like Orenduff, he is projected as a starter, in part because of an advanced curveball and what White calls a "perfect" delivery. He went 8-3 with a 1.31 ERA and 116 strikeouts and 15 walks in 64 innings.

http://www.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20040607&content_id=764404&vkey=news_la&fext=.jsp&c_id=la

pedro
03-20-2008, 11:05 PM
Great deal by Wayne if this is true.


Sounds like it.

stats (http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/J/blake-johnson.shtml)

fearofpopvol1
03-20-2008, 11:05 PM
If that was the return for Salmon, then I take back what I said and fully support the trade. I'm not sure Johnson will amount to much (his K/9 rate doesn't totally inspire one), but at least he has some upside.

mth123
03-20-2008, 11:08 PM
Johnson is KC's number 14 prospect per BA. It sounds like he figured something out mid season and his 2nd half was better than his overall numbers. Possibly his prior seasons are holding his ranking down. From what I've read, he could be a good pick-up if its true.

Cedric
03-20-2008, 11:11 PM
I would drive Salmon to KC if Johnson is the return. Johnson gave up 119 hits in 131 innings in Wilmington (A+). Also has given up only 28 home runs in four minor league seasons.

OnBaseMachine
03-20-2008, 11:14 PM
Johnson is KC's number 14 prospect per BA. It sounds like he figured something out mid season and his 2nd half was better than his overall numbers. Possibly his pior seasons is holding his ranking down. From what I've read, he could be a good pick-up if its true.

Check out his stats from his last 10 games of 2007:

45.1 IP, 28 H, 10 BB, 33 K, 1.19 ERA, 1.40 GO/FO ratio

He's listed at 6'5" 200 pounds on milb.com, so he's got room to grow and add a mph or two to his already 90-94 mph sinking fastball. He also reportedly has a great curveball but his changeup is lacking at this point...send him to Mario Soto!

TRF
03-20-2008, 11:17 PM
That's a good return if true. certainly better than the crap he got for Medlock. Better than what he got by exposing Guervara.

mth123
03-20-2008, 11:24 PM
Check out his stats from his last 10 games of 2007:

45.1 IP, 28 H, 10 BB, 33 K, 1.19 ERA, 1.40 GO/FO ratio

He's listed at 6'5" 200 pounds on milb.com, so he's got room to grow and add a mph or two to his already 90-94 mph sinking fastball. He also reportedly has a great curveball but his changeup is lacking at this point...send him to Mario Soto!

Could be a very good deal. I like the sound of this kid. I hope its true but I'm not sure why Moore would give him up for a guy that was readily available like Salmon. I think he values Salmon and will be rewarded, but I'm sure that the Reds would have settled for less (and still may I suppose).

BTW, I posted while watching Lost, listening to the game and keeping an eye on the NCAA tourney. I'm really not as uneducated as that post makes it seem.

princeton
03-21-2008, 11:12 AM
double post

princeton
03-21-2008, 11:13 AM
Reds only draft or trade for the tallest RHPers, Volquez being the dinkiest at 6'1". This FO might never have signed Johnny Cueto.

I think that this guy is pretty hohum, but tall pitchers often develop late. Too bad Mario Soto's going back home before he can teach another changeup.

RedlegJake
03-21-2008, 11:56 AM
Huhum, maybe but still Blake Johnson is a really nice return on Brad Salmon and may blosom yet.

princeton
03-21-2008, 12:46 PM
Blake Johnson is a really nice return on Brad Salmon.



doesn't Johnson sounds like a poor man's Dustin Moseley?

I figure that over his career, Salmon will contribute more to a major league team.

membengal
03-21-2008, 12:47 PM
Did Mosely sit in the 90-94 range with his fastball?

westofyou
03-21-2008, 12:49 PM
doesn't Johnson sounds like a poor man's Dustin Moseley?

I figure that over his career, Salmon will contribute more to a major league team.

Hard to contribute when your krpytonite (LH hitters) flourish mightily in the park that half your teams games are in.

princeton
03-21-2008, 12:52 PM
Did Mosely sit in the 90-94 range with his fastball?


we saw such reports, and it's amazing how precipitously those mph's can drop as a kid gets closer to the majors...

Steve4192
03-21-2008, 01:02 PM
we saw such reports, and it's amazing how precipitously those mph's can drop as a kid gets closer to the majors...

+1

I can't think of many prospects who didn't throw in 90-94 mph range in single-A according to their minor league scouting reports. Unfortunately, almost all of 'em ended up working in the high 80s and only occasionally reaching back to touch the low 90s once they showed up in Cincinnati or Louisville.

HokieRed
03-21-2008, 01:27 PM
Most compelling thing I see in Johnson's favor is that record over the last ten games. His 80 K's in 131 innings is a lot less impressive. Also I'm wondering about the ballpark factor in Wilmington; the ERA's and WHIP's of the top four starters, and even the whole staff, are extremely impressive.

TRF
03-21-2008, 01:31 PM
Hard to contribute when your krpytonite (LH hitters) flourish mightily in the park that half your teams games are in.

Especially when you are used wrong by your manager. The majority of hitter bat RH. I'd rather have Salmon facing Pujols than Majewski.

westofyou
03-21-2008, 01:50 PM
The majority of hitter bat RH.
RH specialists are the spoils of the rich, the Reds don't have the roster to carry a guy who can't get out the steak eaters in his own home park. His value is based on who can cover the part of the game he drops so very often (LH hitters drink his milkshake) and the Reds aren't that team with the park they have.

PuffyPig
03-21-2008, 01:51 PM
Especially when you are used wrong by your manager. The majority of hitter bat RH. I'd rather have Salmon facing Pujols than Majewski.

I don't know, I'd rather have Salmon facing Majewski over Pujols any day of the week.

princeton
03-21-2008, 02:30 PM
I still can't figure out why you can't have "luxuries" when you have a 12 man staff. Frank Williams struggled vs. LHBers, but he improved and was generally pretty solid.

What I did like about Salmon was that he'd either K or get a grounder out of a RHBer. There are situations where that can be very useful. I just wasn't yet convinced that he wouldn't walk the batter instead.

Steve4192
03-21-2008, 02:55 PM
RH specialists are the spoils of the rich, the Reds don't have the roster to carry a guy who can't get out the steak eaters in his own home park. His value is based on who can cover the part of the game he drops so very often (LH hitters drink his milkshake) and the Reds aren't that team with the park they have.

Mmmmmmm .... Steak n Shake.

RedlegJake
03-21-2008, 11:14 PM
I just have a feeling that Blake Johnson may be the next Matt Maloney for the Reds. Puts up good numbers and gets noticed but whether that means he is ever a good big league pitcher...??? As for Salmon my feeling is that he can only contribute if the Reds gave him the chance.

red-in-la
03-22-2008, 12:41 AM
Mmmmmmm .... Steak n Shake.

Meet me in St. Louis, Louis. Meet me at the fair.

SteelSD
03-22-2008, 03:49 AM
+1

I can't think of many prospects who didn't throw in 90-94 mph range in single-A according to their minor league scouting reports. Unfortunately, almost all of 'em ended up working in the high 80s and only occasionally reaching back to touch the low 90s once they showed up in Cincinnati or Louisville.

Bingo. When I hear that a kid throws as hard as 94 MPH in A-Ball and then see a progressively declining K/9 rate which bottomed out at 5.47 in 2007, I just shake my head.

traderumor
03-22-2008, 07:24 AM
I just have a feeling that Blake Johnson may be the next Matt Maloney for the Reds. Puts up good numbers and gets noticed but whether that means he is ever a good big league pitcher...??? As for Salmon my feeling is that he can only contribute if the Reds gave him the chance.I'm guessing Brad Salmon is more like the next Chris Booker when given the chance.

MartyFan
03-22-2008, 12:03 PM
Blake Johnson is 22? 23?

Salmon is 28?

If Johnson is the PTBNL then I am a-ok-fine with this deal...Salmon wasn't doing anything with the Reds.

camisadelgolf
03-25-2008, 07:28 AM
I may have missed some, but in looking through the transactions since Krivsky has been GM, quite a number of trades Krivsky made were PTBNL or cash considerations, but I only found one listed in which we got cash - Brendan Harris. Cody Ross, according to baseball-reference was sold to Florida, but I think originally it was stated as a PTBNL or cash.

Frankly, I was surprised by how many transactions we made in which we got cash back from the other clubs - probably at least a dozen.

The main point is that "Pile O Cash" isn't really Krivsky's M.O. I can't say what we'll get in return for Salmon, but this is very typical of what Krivsky has done. He has plied a number of players from our system for other minor leaguers.
Jason LaRue was traded with cash ($3.5MM iIrc) for a PTBNL or cash, and the Reds later received cash.

redsmetz
03-25-2008, 08:21 AM
Jason LaRue was traded with cash ($3.5MM iIrc) for a PTBNL or cash, and the Reds later received cash.

I didn't catch that one because on the Transaction report for November, 2006, it just says "for player to be named". I didn't catch the follow-up on it. The point still stands, the vast majority of Krivsky deals where a "PTBNL or cash" is involved, we usually get the player. As I noted, we also sold more players' contracts than we received cash for in trades.