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dougdirt
03-25-2008, 06:23 PM
All of 24 years old, he went on to pitch 680 innings and have a 1.99 ERA. Pretty good stuff right? Well, not exactly.

That year, Will White allowed 404 runs that year, but only 150 of them were earned. He allowed 254 unearned runs that year. I saw that while just browsing through some old Reds stats and thought it was crazy enough to share.

westofyou
03-25-2008, 06:33 PM
dp

westofyou
03-25-2008, 06:33 PM
Errors were a big part of the game then


1 Ross Barnes 71
2 King Kelly 58
3 Joe Gerhardt 55
4 Deacon White 45
5 Cal McVey 42
6 Mike Burke 31
7 Will Foley 26
8 Will White 20
9 Pete Hotaling 12
10 Jack Neagle 2

dougdirt
03-25-2008, 06:48 PM
Certainly they were, but when I first saw that my jaw dropped.

KronoRed
03-25-2008, 10:06 PM
I doubt he took his fielders out for dinner.

klw
03-25-2008, 10:42 PM
Wow Dusty overused him! And think how many saves Stanton blew for him that year.


Here are his career stats.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/whitewi01.shtml
Looks like that year ruined his arm. He never threw more than 578 innings in a year the rest of his career.

cumberlandreds
03-26-2008, 11:05 AM
I don't think the fielders wore gloves then? That could have been the problem.

westofyou
03-26-2008, 11:13 AM
I don't think the fielders wore gloves then? That could have been the problem.

Yes.. that's the main reason, the field was not groomed either and the ball was not always in a consistent state either, style was still being determined and that causes more mistakes.

Some fields even were positioned with the sun in odd places that would never occur these days, add in the fact that walk and strikeout rates were low and you'll see way more balls in play with those conditions too.

Chip R
03-26-2008, 11:15 AM
I don't think the fielders wore gloves then? That could have been the problem.


They were just starting to wear them. They really weren't bigger than a work glove that we'd wear now.

Will's stats suffered when overhand pitching was legalized.

westofyou
03-26-2008, 11:23 AM
This image is from 1895 or so, the gloves of fielders is still portrayed as a rarity, this is probably a tad exaggerated in this picture, but the memory must have still been strong.

http://baseballminutia.com/images/19th_2art.gif

George Anderson
03-26-2008, 11:31 AM
Herman Long who played from 1889-1904 has the all time career record of 1,096 errors. In his rookie year of 1889 he made 117 errors in 128 games.

and i thought Lopez was bad.

MrCinatit
03-26-2008, 02:21 PM
If Narron would have made them take infield practice before each game, this wouldn't be happ...


Oops. Sorry. Flashback.

BCubb2003
03-26-2008, 02:27 PM
So how were Will White's peripherals?

RedsBaron
03-26-2008, 02:30 PM
Looks like that year ruined his arm. He never threw more than 578 innings in a year the rest of his career.

Wimp.

westofyou
03-26-2008, 02:30 PM
So how were Will White's peripherals?

H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB
8.74 10.17 2.64 1.26 2.10

WMR
03-26-2008, 02:33 PM
Could any of those guys play the game professionally today, I wonder?

westofyou
03-26-2008, 02:35 PM
Could any of those guys play the game professionally today, I wonder?

Mike Kelly, Cap Anson... Monte Ward, Buck Ewing, Pete Browning, Dan Brouthers...

RedsBaron
03-26-2008, 02:36 PM
Could any of those guys play the game professionally today, I wonder?

No way. They're dead. ;)

George Anderson
03-26-2008, 02:36 PM
Could any of those guys play the game professionally today, I wonder?


Kinda reminds me of the thread a few months ago about how Bench and Rose would do in todays game. If the players from the 1800's had the same training regime and other things that todays players have, then I would say its very possible many of them could play today.

WMR
03-26-2008, 02:37 PM
Were those guys extraordinary athletes for their time or something?

WMR
03-26-2008, 02:37 PM
No way. They're dead. ;)

RIMSHOT.

:laugh:

WMR
03-26-2008, 02:40 PM
Kinda reminds me of the thread a few months ago about how Bench and Rose would do in todays game. If the players from the 1800's had the same training regime and other things that todays players have, then I would say its very possible many of them could play today.

Agree. I was kind of wondering if they could play today's game with their bodies/talent as they existed back then. That is the really intriguing question, IMO.

westofyou
03-26-2008, 02:45 PM
Guy on the right is Cap Anson 10 years after he retired.

He's huge

http://memory.loc.gov/ndlpcoop/ichicdn/s0541/s054108.jpg

WMR
03-26-2008, 03:20 PM
Dang! :lol: How tall was he?

RedFanAlways1966
03-26-2008, 08:35 PM
Dang! :lol: How tall was he?

Listed at 6 foot, 227 pounds during his playing days. Goes to show you how short most men were back in those days... not all, but a lot of them were under 6 foot. woy said 10 years after he played which would have been around 1907.

savafan
03-26-2008, 08:44 PM
I think a more telling stat is that White started 75 of his team's 81 games, or 93%.

Chip R
03-26-2008, 09:22 PM
A few things about White from Redleg Journal:

White pitched in an era of underhanded delivery when the rules and strategy of the game were different from today. The pitching distance was 45 feet when White began his career, and was extended to 50 feet in 1881. Teams traditionally carried just one or two starting pitchers, and starters were expected to complete games. The style of pitching (underhand and sidearm) did not put as much stress on the arm as the overhand delivery which was not legalized until 1893. So it was not surprising that a pitcher from that era would dominate a club's career statistics in many categories, such as starts, complete games, innings pitched, and wins.

The rules and conditions of the time make it difficult to compare pitchers of that era with post 1900 hurlers, but it still took a pitcher of considerable talent to put up the numbers White accomplished. Compared to his contemporaries - and what fairer test is there? - White was one of the most dominating pitchers of his time.

The bespectacled White stood only 5 feet 9 inches, weighed 175 pounds and had the appearance of a school teacher or a preacher, rather than a major league hurler. But while White was not a dominating figure, he had stamina. He started and completed 75 games in 1879 and pitched 680 innings, marks that still lead the major league record books. He led the 1882 championship Reds with 40 wins, and led the league in wins, complete games and shutouts.

White suffered an arm injury in 1885, made only three starts in 1886 and retired. Five years later White earned a degree in opthamology and opened up a spectacle company near his home in Buffalo, New York. He died suddenly in 1911, suffering a heart attack while swimming.