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View Full Version : Stanton for Wes Helms?



BRM
03-26-2008, 11:18 AM
C. Trent has the link on his blog.



The Phillies would love to be able to trade Helms. The Giants (for veteran lefthander Steve Kline) and the Reds (for experienced lefty Mike Stanton) are among the teams they are believed to be talking to.

Highlifeman21
03-26-2008, 11:21 AM
Getting rid of Stanton is a winning proposition.

Helms being able to play 3B, 1B and IIRC some LF would certainly make us a deeper team.

Why on Earth the Phillies would want Stanton just boggles the mind, though.

OnBaseMachine
03-26-2008, 11:24 AM
I would make that deal. Helms only hit .246/.297/.368 last season but check out his two previous seasons:

.329/.390/.575
.298/.356/.458

Sign me up.

reds44
03-26-2008, 11:26 AM
Gets rid of Stanton and improves the bench.

Sign me up.

Cedric
03-26-2008, 11:31 AM
Gets rid of Stanton.

Sign me up.

This is really it for me :)

redsfan30
03-26-2008, 11:32 AM
There would be absolutely nothing to not like about that deal.

Roy Tucker
03-26-2008, 11:34 AM
I'm not 100% convinced that Stanton's gas tank is empty, but I'd rather the Phillies make that determination than the Reds.

Trade away, Wayne.

savafan
03-26-2008, 11:35 AM
Not to mention the deal would save the Reds about $900,000. What's not to like?

camisadelgolf
03-26-2008, 11:37 AM
I like the trade, if it happens (and it won't). Maybe he could be traded by the Reds for another piece of the second coming of the Big Red Machine. That's what happened to his uncle, anyway.

fearofpopvol1
03-26-2008, 11:39 AM
If true, the Reds need to do whatever it takes to make it happen. They should definitely offer to throw in a million.

Something tells me it won't happen though.

redsrule2500
03-26-2008, 11:50 AM
If true, the Reds need to do whatever it takes to make it happen. They should definitely offer to throw in a million.

Something tells me it won't happen though.

Throw in a million? I don't know about that. You are essentially trading trash for trash...and I wouldn't want to pay more for the offensive trash than the pitching trash.

dfs
03-26-2008, 11:52 AM
Helms becomes your first base platoon partner and another reserve who can play third.
He would be a right handed bat off the bench with some thump.

A long time ago he spent some a couple games as a corner outfielder. If he could do that, he could be a pretty valuable guy to this team and would be worth a roster spot.

plus it gets Mike Stanton off the books.

corkedbat
03-26-2008, 11:56 AM
Stanton for Tommy Helms, I don't care - just bring it on!

fearofpopvol1
03-26-2008, 12:00 PM
Throw in a million? I don't know about that. You are essentially trading trash for trash...and I wouldn't want to pay more for the offensive trash than the pitching trash.

Yeah, but if Helms may go elsewhere instead, it's worth upping the ante for. Especially since Stanton is owed a million more than Helms this year. Essentiall, the Reds would be paying Helms the same amount they'd pay Stanton. I'll take Helms over Stanton 8 days a week.

RedsManRick
03-26-2008, 12:01 PM
Helms career vL: .280/.359/.476. Nice platoon partner.

Helms for Stanton would be an absolute coup -- even if we kicked in cash. Two birds with one stone.

rotnoid
03-26-2008, 12:02 PM
Not to mention the deal would save the Reds about $900,000. What's not to like?


With Stanton's buyout next year, it's more like $1.4M.

savafan
03-26-2008, 12:09 PM
With Stanton's buyout next year, it's more like $1.4M.

even better ;)

Doc. Scott
03-26-2008, 12:35 PM
So if you get Helms, what happens with Scott Hatteberg? Helms makes more money than Hatteberg, hasn't hit as well as Scott has recently, and offers only a younger age and some dubious positional flexibility (as Wes is a mediocre defender at both third and in the OF).

I'm not against ditching Stanton- I'm just suspicious about what Helms' presence might do for Joey Votto as well as Scott Hatteberg.

Reds1
03-26-2008, 12:39 PM
This deal even makes more sense if Freel is actively being shopped. Freels true value is that he can do so many things. I think with Keppinger being able to play 3rd do we really even need helms, but we can't hold all these pitchers and getting rid of that salary is a win win situation. I'd rather have Merker then Stanton. :) Is that how others feel? Not sure we even need a helms though. Heck, do the deal and waive him. LOL Or use him in another trade to sweeten a deal. I don't know him that well so hard to speculate there.

RedsManRick
03-26-2008, 12:47 PM
So if you get Helms, what happens with Scott Hatteberg? Helms makes more money than Hatteberg, hasn't hit as well as Scott has recently, and offers only a younger age and some dubious positional flexibility (as Wes is a mediocre defender at both third and in the OF).

I'm not against ditching Stanton- I'm just suspicious about what Helms' presence might do for Joey Votto as well as Scott Hatteberg.

Helms is the Hatteberg replacement, no doubt. Acquiring him woudl necessitate moving Hatteberg. Helms platoons when Votto is up and still provides the veteran insurance should Votto really struggle.

It would require some juggling, but an ability to eek out some real roster efficiencies could be a big differentiator in the Reds' success this year.

KronoRed
03-26-2008, 01:01 PM
Why would a team trade for Stanton? he may be free to anyone in a week.

lollipopcurve
03-26-2008, 01:11 PM
There's about to be a dump of free agents onto the market (guys without options, NRIs). Seems to be a very tough time to make a deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds do nothing but release a bunch of players.

RedsManRick
03-26-2008, 01:16 PM
There's about to be a dump of free agents onto the market (guys without options, NRIs). Seems to be a very tough time to make a deal. I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds do nothing but release a bunch of players.

The same could be said about Helms. If that's a roster inefficiency for the Phillies, it's going to be difficult to trade him given the WW dump. This would be a way for them to cut salary while adding a more useful part (by their judgment).

Will M
03-26-2008, 01:24 PM
The same could be said about Helms. If that's a roster inefficiency for the Phillies, it's going to be difficult to trade him given the WW dump. This would be a way for them to cut salary while adding a more useful part (by their judgment).

sure.

our overpriced vet coming off a bad year for your overpriced vet coming off a bad year. we get something we need ( RH bench bat with some power ) and you get something you need ( LH reliever ).

IMO this is the only way guys like Stanton or Helms can be traded without the team eating a ton of salary.

lollipopcurve
03-26-2008, 01:26 PM
The same could be said about Helms. If that's a roster inefficiency for the Phillies, it's going to be difficult to trade him given the WW dump. This would be a way for them to cut salary while adding a more useful part (by their judgment).

But if the deal costs them $$$ (as a deal for Stanton may), they might just prefer to bottom feed.

RedsManRick
03-26-2008, 01:32 PM
But if the deal costs them $$$ (as a deal for Stanton may), they might just prefer to bottom feed.

I think it goes unsaid that the Reds would eat the salary difference to make the deal happen. It would save the Phillies money by not having to pay Helms AND a LH reliever signed off the wire.

lollipopcurve
03-26-2008, 01:44 PM
I think it goes unsaid that the Reds would eat the salary difference to make the deal happen. It would save the Phillies money by not having to pay Helms AND a LH reliever signed off the wire.

Yeah. Makes sense.

From the Reds' point of view, Helms seems redundant with A. Phillips/Cabrera and, to an extent, A. Green (not to mention Keppinger when Gonzalez gets back). More logjam at a time when Krivsky's trying to unload. The only way the deal would seem to really help, in my opinion, is if they can spin Helms elsewhere, and, as noted, it's not a great time of year to find takers for marginal players.

RedsManRick
03-26-2008, 01:58 PM
Yeah. Makes sense.

From the Reds' point of view, Helms seems redundant with A. Phillips/Cabrera and, to an extent, A. Green (not to mention Keppinger when Gonzalez gets back). More logjam at a time when Krivsky's trying to unload. The only way the deal would seem to really help, in my opinion, is if they can spin Helms elsewhere, and, as noted, it's not a great time of year to find takers for marginal players.

The difference of course being that Helms is a guy with a career .835 OPS vL over 696 major league at bats.

Cabrera hasn't been in the majors since 2004 and has a career .706 OPS vL in 537 PA. Andy Phillips has a career .544 OPS vL in 164 PA.

Helms is by far the best bench option of the three. And that doesn't count allowing us to carry a young effective reliever who otherwise would be in AAA, like Bill Bray or Josh Roenicke.

Matt700wlw
03-26-2008, 01:59 PM
I would trade Stanton for a wax figure of a crappy ballplayer that has long since passed away

If nothing else, Wes Helms breathes.....and he's not a shabby ballplayer either!

lollipopcurve
03-26-2008, 02:05 PM
Cabrera hasn't been in the majors since 2004 and has a career .706 OPS vL in 537 PA. Andy Phillips has a career .544 OPS vL in 164 PA.

Helms is by far the best bench option of the three.

On paper. Helms was way down last year. Cabrera and Phillips also have more defensive versatility. I tend to think Cabrera brings a lot to the table precisely because he has not been in the majors for a while. Helms is seeing his career stagnate and slip. (The main benefit to acquiring Helms is they they wouldn't have to face him -- seems to me he has killed the Reds lately.)


And that doesn't count allowing us to carry a young effective reliever who otherwise would be in AAA, like Bill Bray or Josh Roenicke.

All they have to do is release Stanton.

jojo
03-26-2008, 03:07 PM
Stanton for a wad of previously chewed gum...... still a winner.

Caveat Emperor
03-26-2008, 03:14 PM
I'm not 100% convinced that Stanton's gas tank is empty, but I'd rather the Phillies make that determination than the Reds.

Junkballing lefties do seem to have 9 lives in professional ball. Just when you think one is washed, they come back with some ridiculously lucky sub-3.50 ERA season.

And, conversely, just when you think one has figured it out again, they turn back into a pumpkin and you're left holding the bag.

Either way, I'd be happy to not be the person that finds out -- and I'll continue to feel that way even Stanton is only on life 7.

Matt700wlw
03-26-2008, 03:19 PM
Why on Earth the Phillies would want Stanton just boggles the mind, though.

Rick White says hello.

Chip R
03-26-2008, 03:30 PM
Wasn't Stanton traded here from the Phillies?

flyer85
03-26-2008, 03:31 PM
Wasn't Stanton traded here from the Phillies?
signed as a free agent ... you are likely thinking of Frenchie.

Chip R
03-26-2008, 03:33 PM
signed as a free agent ... you are likely thinking of Frenchie.


Right.

jojo
03-26-2008, 03:59 PM
signed as a free agent ... you are likely thinking of Frenchie.

Well that explains why the Phillies would take a flyer on Stanton. Gillick knows they can always just trade him back to the Reds... :cool:

gm
03-26-2008, 04:21 PM
Wasn't Stanton traded here from the Phillies?

IIRC Stanton was the Giants closer during the second half of '06. (Then Mike got guaranteed money from WK and went on a fast food binge to celebrate...)

Matt700wlw
03-26-2008, 04:27 PM
IIRC Stanton was the Giants closer during the second half of '06. (Then Mike got guaranteed money from WK and went on a fast food binge to celebrate...)

..and stopped the HGH use :cool:

mth123
03-26-2008, 09:45 PM
With Stanton's buyout next year, it's more like $1.4M.

Helms has a $750K buyout of his own. The difference is only about $600K. When you factor in the other guys who would be there instead of Helms and Stanton, its probably a wash for both teams. For example The Reds would add: Helms salary of $2.15 Million, plus his buyout .75 Million and Mercker in place of Stanton at say $1 Million. That is $3.9 Million in adds.

Now subtract Stanton at $3.0 Million and his buyout of $.5 Million and say Hopper gets sent down to make room for Helms that saves about $400K and that would be $3.9 Million in subtractions and a complete wash, but with a better roster. I'd guess there is similar math going on in Philly.

sonny
03-26-2008, 10:40 PM
Wes Helm's socks for Stanton= Still a winner.

This is a move that would really knock a couple of birds out with one stone. Which means it probably won't happen.

KoryMac5
03-27-2008, 12:28 AM
I'm not so sure it is just Stanton they are looking to unload, the possible addition of Helms could mean Hatte, and Freel are being shopped as well. Helms has played a lot of games at third and first acquiring him would make Freel and Hatte expendable while eliminating the current roster jam.

mth123
03-27-2008, 05:21 AM
I'm not so sure it is just Stanton they are looking to unload, the possible addition of Helms could mean Hatte, and Freel are being shopped as well. Helms has played a lot of games at third and first acquiring him would make Freel and Hatte expendable while eliminating the current roster jam.

I think Freel is on the market too. Trading Hatte is problematic at this point. Right now he is the only LHPH on the bench. The remaiining candidates are all RH bats. Unless of course they keep 3 catchers and let Javy play the LHPH role while Bako serves as back-up catcher. If the Reds trade Hatte and keep Bako, then there is still no room for Helms. Hopper, Freel, Javy, Bako and Castro, They may need to deal both Hatte and Freel and unless that would acquire a stud for the bullpen, I'm not sure its worth it.

If no Freel, Hopper or Hatte deal can be made, deal for Helms and send Hopper down. Hatte, Freel, Javy, Castro, Helms. Nice bench. If they get gutsy they could keep Cabrera over Castro, but I'm guessing that Castro stays and is cut loose when Gonzalez returns. That would leave an awesome bench of Freel, Hatte, Helms, Keppinger and Javy and would allow the team to stash Cabrera at AAA instead of exposing him to waivers when Gonzalez returns. In addition to the bench, the Reds would have Cabrera, Hairston, Hopper, Bruce, Dickerson, Gil, Janish, Green, Rosales and Andy Phillips at AAA. That is pretty good depth. Cashing a couple of those guys in for an upgrade in the pen would be great. The Reds could certainly use an upgrade for the pen, but I doubt anyone would be available that is any better than the glut already on hand.

BRM
03-27-2008, 10:11 AM
There is still hope Reds fans!! A deal for Kline reportedly fell through.



Either way, it appears as if the Phils have decided to open with 11 pitchers. That's probably good news, at least temporarily, for infielder Wes Helms, who could win the final bench spot over outfielder Chris Snelling.

Helms, however, might not last long. He probably would be the odd man out when closer Brad Lidge comes off the disabled list. Lidge is eligible to join the active roster April 5. Once Lidge is ready, the Phils probably will go with 12 pitchers.

An attempt to trade Helms to San Francisco for lefty reliever Steve Kline apparently fell through.


LINK (http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20080327_Phillies_Notes__Phils_hunt_waiver_wire_fo r_pitching_help.html)

Johnny Footstool
03-27-2008, 10:15 AM
There is still hope Reds fans!! A deal for Kline reportedly fell through.


Kline would have been the Phillies first choice. Hopefully, the Reds will jump in for sloppy seconds.

Triples
03-27-2008, 10:23 AM
If I understand this correctly and maybe I don't...why not pay Stanton's buyout and use Rosales as the platoon corner guy. Rosales can play a very capable third and spent most of last season at first and did a pretty good job there as well (plus he can play a good 2b and a passable/emergency SS). There's no doubt Rosales can hit, he just has to prove that at the ML level. That rids the club of Stanton's big salary and they don't have to pay Rosales the league minimum. Given Helms is going into the twilight of his career, why not invest the time in a guy who could potentially be a mainstay for the Reds for the next 10 years or more and save a couple million bucks which can be spent on signing draft picks or picking up some more pitching depth.

there has to be something I don't understand about Stanton's salary/buyout. Everyone is talking about him being the odd man out, even Dusty has eluded to it. Am I missing something or are the Reds trying to find him a home (and get a little something in return) before dumping on him.

BRM
03-27-2008, 10:26 AM
I'm sure the Reds would rather have Rosales playing everyday at Chattanooga or Louisville than platooning in Cincy.

Wheelhouse
03-27-2008, 10:36 AM
According to mlbtraderumors.com Helms for Kline has fallen through. Looks like the Helms-Stanton possibility may have gotten a boost.

Ga_Red
03-27-2008, 11:57 AM
Hal says the Reds nixed this deal??!!!???

BRM
03-27-2008, 11:59 AM
Hal says the Reds nixed this deal??!!!???

He sure did. Hopefully he is mistaken.



Are we missing a name here? Oh, yeah. Mike Stanton and his $3 million contract (with a $500,000 buyout). The Phillies inquired about his availability, offering first baseman/third baseman Wes Helmes. The Reds said no.

westofyou
03-27-2008, 12:08 PM
There is still hope Reds fans!! A deal for Kline reportedly fell through.



LINK (http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20080327_Phillies_Notes__Phils_hunt_waiver_wire_fo r_pitching_help.html)


Down to 11 healthy pitchers, the Phillies could drop to 10 by today after placing struggling reliever J.D. Durbin on waivers.

Apparently the Phils are pretty confident they'll be successful in their desperate search to add a veteran arm from outside the organization before Monday's season opener.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/102-03272008-1509654.html

OnBaseMachine
03-27-2008, 12:41 PM
He sure did. Hopefully he is mistaken.

Wow. Dumbfounding move on the Reds part if that's true.

KronoRed
03-27-2008, 02:22 PM
The Reds must not like Helms at all, the alternative is they still like Stanton..and that is too bitter to consider.

Matt700wlw
03-27-2008, 02:25 PM
Hal says the Reds nixed this deal??!!!???

That was stupid.

Jpup
03-27-2008, 02:25 PM
The Reds must not like Helms at all, the alternative is they still like Stanton..and that is too bitter to consider.

I'm sure Krivsky would actually tell Hal. ;)

KronoRed
03-27-2008, 02:27 PM
I'm sure Krivsky would actually tell Hal. ;)

True, maybe he feeds him false info like during the GM search :D

Triples
03-27-2008, 02:40 PM
I'm sure the Reds would rather have Rosales playing everyday at Chattanooga or Louisville than platooning in Cincy.

250 ABs in the Majors > 500 ABs in AA or AAA.

camisadelgolf
03-27-2008, 02:47 PM
I think it's completely unnecessary to start Rosales' arbitration clock so soon. If he shows he's not ready for Major League pitching (and he probably isn't), then the Reds will have wasted a 40-man roster spot for a year. Besides, Rosales has only 255 at-bats above high-A-ball.

fearofpopvol1
03-27-2008, 10:41 PM
You've got to be kidding me. If true (and it sounds like it is), Wayne gets an F- for that move (or lack there of).

reds44
03-27-2008, 11:14 PM
You've got to be kidding me. If true (and it sounds like it is), Wayne gets an F- for that move (or lack there of).
Unless he thinks he can get more out of the Phillies.

cincyinco
03-27-2008, 11:20 PM
Unless he thinks he can get more out of the Phillies.


Exactly, and if a deal for Kline has fallen through, perhaps he can squeeze some more juice from the lemon.

fearofpopvol1
03-28-2008, 12:04 PM
Unless he thinks he can get more out of the Phillies.

I didn't get that that was the sticking point based on what was reported.