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View Full Version : EE or BP? Who's the better hitter?



TRF
03-27-2008, 01:36 PM
Perhaps the question should be who's the better offensive player? I don't want to ignore BP's SB ability.

IMO it's still EE. Better OBP = fewer outs. EE was the MAN with runners in scoring position.

runner on 2B
BP .196 BA, .275 OBP, .391 SLG 46 AB's
EE .348 BA, .444 OBP, .543 SLG 46 AB's

runner on 3B
BP .333 BA, .444 OBP, .476 SLG 21 AB's
EE .333 BA, .400 OBP, .417 SLG 12 AB's

runners at 1st and 3rd
BP .471 BA, .450 OBP, .706 SLG 17 AB's (these are eyepopping numbers, but BP's OBP is actually lower than his BA here. Still mind boggling good.
BP .500 BA, .571 OBP, .722 SLG 18 AB's

Bases Loaded
BP .263 BA, .300 OBP, .579 SLG 19 AB's
BP .471 BA, .550 OBP, .647 SLG 17 AB's

It seems to me that Phillips has a little power edge, but one i think this year will be closer to even, and EE has the better OBP, across the board. BTW, I didn't include numbers for 2nd and third as EE only had 4 AB's. BP had this line in 14 AB's .286 BA, .333 OBP, .500 SLG. And I won't forget his 32 SB's to EE's 8 either. Still BP makes a lot of outs. in 150 fewer AB's, EE walked 6 more times than Phillips. I think it's pretty close, but I give the edge as a hitter to EE, with props to BP and a speed adjusted SLG that takes him over .500 I have BP's speed adjusted OBP at .320, and his speed adjusted SLG at .533 which is an Speed Adjusted OPS of .853. BP's speed is a big boost, and offsets his lower OBP because he DOES have some real power. Edwin's Speed Adjusted OBP is .354. his one CS cost him .002 points of OBP. His 8 SB's increases his SA SLG to .454 giving him a SAOPS of .808. That is almost 50 points lower than BP.

I guess I just favor the OBP more than the SLG. So it's probably subjective to the individual, and in certain situations a coinflip as to who is the better hitter.

Kc61
03-27-2008, 01:58 PM
EE's numbers, which aren't that good, are inflated because he had a hot August and September, months after the Reds were out of the race. His 2007 was very poor before that. And his 42 extra base hits for the entire season (over 500 at bats) and his .804 OPS against lefties are of deep concern for a supposed right handed power hitter playing a power position.

Phillips' problem is that he is OBP challenged, which in some folks' eyes is a horrible flaw. But as a second baseman, he is very much a plus offensive player due to his power and speed. And he mashes left handed pitching (.984 OPS), which is a big plus.

They are both too young to draw ultimate conclusions. But right now, it isn't even close. And I don't remember much talk about sending Phillips to AAA last year.

camisadelgolf
03-27-2008, 01:59 PM
Which one's a better hitter? Well, I'd say it's almost definitely Encarnacion. However, when compared to the rest of the players at their respective positions, I'd say that Brandon Phillips is a slightly better hitter.

TRF
03-27-2008, 02:26 PM
They are both too young to draw ultimate conclusions. But right now, it isn't even close. And I don't remember much talk about sending Phillips to AAA last year.

That had more to being mishandled by Narron than anything he did at the plate.

Reds1
03-27-2008, 02:47 PM
Phillips more consistant, more power, more speed - at least at this point.

Kc61
03-27-2008, 02:50 PM
That had more to being mishandled by Narron than anything he did at the plate.

So Narron caused EE to have a total of 19 extra base hits in April, May, June and July combined? And a pre-all star game OPS of .744?

If EE has four months like that this year, Baker won't send him down. He'll send him to a different organization.

RedsManRick
03-27-2008, 03:11 PM
So Narron caused EE to have a total of 19 extra base hits in April, May, June and July combined? And a pre-all star game OPS of .744?

If EE has four months like that this year, Baker won't send him down. He'll send him to a different organization.

.744 huh? And yet, when Brandon Phillips puts up a .737 OPS versus righties over 480 plate appearances (the 2/3 of the season that would get EE shipped out) nobody bats an eye -- they bat him cleanup instead. You can play the splits game all day.

BP barely outperformed EE over the course of last season, and likely didn't when you factor in both SB and GIDP.

EE OPS by month, 2007
APR .554
MAY .842
JUN .820
JUL .614
AUG .908
SEP .969

EE OPS vL/vR, 2007
vL: .790 (378)
vR: .804 (182)

BP OPS by month, 2007
APR .792
MAY .832
JUN .706
JUL .854
AUG .923
SEP .762

BP OPS vL/vR (PA), 2007
vL: .984 (222)
vR: .737 (480)

Given that EE is two years younger than BP, that BP has had about 500 more major league PA, that EE has shown more power throughout his minor league career (.167 ISO SLG) than Phillips (.144 ISO SLG), I'm going to go with EE moving forward. The speed issue barely moves the needle. And when it comes to being worried about splits, a massive platoon split is much more troubling to me than 2 really bad months.

Sure BP is better relative to his position, but position is irrelevant when putting the lineup order together (or at least it should be...).

TRF
03-27-2008, 03:12 PM
So Narron caused EE to have a total of 19 extra base hits in April, May, June and July combined? And a pre-all star game OPS of .744?

If EE has four months like that this year, Baker won't send him down. He'll send him to a different organization.

And what was his OPS in June, July, August and Sept.?

It certainly wasn't .744

CTA513
03-27-2008, 03:28 PM
Encarnacion wasn't hitting a bunch of doubles and homeruns, but he was knocking in runs both pre and post All-Star break.

Encarnacion Pre All-Star: .270 AVG with 36 RBIs in 256 ABs
Encarnacion Post All-Star: .308 AVG with 40 RBIs in 246 ABs

Phillips Pre All-Star: .276 AVG with 47 RBIs in 352 ABs
Phillips Post All-Star: .302 AVG with 47 RBIs in 298 ABs



Encarnacion has also been a better hitter with RISP in the majors.

Kc61
03-27-2008, 03:42 PM
.744 huh? And yet, when Brandon Phillips puts up a .737 OPS versus righties over 480 plate appearances (the 2/3 of the season that would get EE shipped out) nobody bats an eye -- they bat him cleanup instead. You can play the splits game all day.

BP barely outperformed EE over the course of last season, and likely didn't when you factor in both SB and GIDP.

EE OPS by month, 2007
APR .554
MAY .842
JUN .820
JUL .614
AUG .908
SEP .969
TOT .794

BP OPS by month, 2007
APR .792
MAY .832
JUN .706
JUL .854
AUG .923
SEP .762
TOT .816

Given that EE is two years younger than BP, that BP has had about 500 more major league PA, that EE has shown more power throughout his minor league career (.167 ISO SLG) than Phillips (.144 ISO SLG), I'm going to go with EE moving forward. The speed issue barely moves the needle.

Sure BP is better relative to his position, but position is irrelevant when putting the lineup order

together (or at least it should be...).

Phillips may have had a .734 for a time against righties, but that's only against righties. He killed lefty pitching all season and had a .984 OPS against lefties, which is omitted from your post.

EE's .744 (with 19 extra base hits) are totals for his performance for April through July. Against all pitching. Even with his late hot streak, his OPS against lefties was .804.

EE is younger and did have some good minor league season. True, but doesn't change anything.

redsrule2500
03-27-2008, 03:47 PM
Did you mislabel EE as BP in the last 2 categories? Which one is which, the bottom I assume? Thanks


runners at 1st and 3rd
BP .471 BA, .450 OBP, .706 SLG 17 AB's (these are eyepopping numbers, but BP's OBP is actually lower than his BA here. Still mind boggling good.
BP .500 BA, .571 OBP, .722 SLG 18 AB's

Bases Loaded
BP .263 BA, .300 OBP, .579 SLG 19 AB's
BP .471 BA, .550 OBP, .647 SLG 17 AB's

TRF
03-27-2008, 03:48 PM
Phillips may have had a .734 for a time against righties, but that's only against righties. He killed lefty pitching all season and had a .984 OPS against lefties, which is omitted from your post.

EE's .744 (with 19 extra base hits) are totals for his performance for April through July. Against all pitching. Even with his late hot streak, his OPS against lefties was .804.

EE is younger and did have some good minor league season. True, but doesn't change anything.

Post ASB:
Phillips .832 OPS
EE .848 OPS

redsrule2500
03-27-2008, 03:50 PM
Sure BP is better relative to his position, but position is irrelevant when putting the lineup order together (or at least it should be...).

I agree. This is why everyone hated on Casey, he didn't "Bat like a 1Bman". I think it's a stupid, illogical arguement.

BP defense and baserunning is where he makes up for the lack of batting...he's the "complete package" player.

Kc61
03-27-2008, 03:55 PM
Post ASB:
Phillips .832 OPS
EE .848 OPS

Right, as I said, once the race was over, and EE had served his minor league stint, he hit much better. But to say that he's a better hitter or offensive player than Phillips goes way too far.

And, of course, this spring EE is hitting like he did last April to July. So it's hard to get very excited about him.

And, of course, EE's OBP is nice -- personally, I'd sometimes bat him second -- but it's not high enough to justify a third baseman who fails to get extra base hits and doesn't hit lefties well.

So, hopefully, EE will make adjustments this year and show improvement. He certainly improved defensively last year, significantly. The Reds need him to hit, particularly against lefty pitching, because they only have one power bat that kills lefties, and that belongs to Phillips.

cincrazy
03-27-2008, 03:58 PM
I don't even think it's close. Edwin may have the higher OBP, but give me Phillips' consistency day in and day out. You don't know what you're going to get from EdE in an given month. He could hit .400 and he could hit .120.

Kc61
03-27-2008, 04:01 PM
I agree. This is why everyone hated on Casey, he didn't "Bat like a 1Bman". I think it's a stupid, illogical arguement.

BP defense and baserunning is where he makes up for the lack of batting...he's the "complete package" player.

"Stupid?" "Illogical?"

Middle infielders are counted upon for their range and defensive prowess. Many teams have middle infielders who don't hit for power because often they are smaller or slighter individuals, as may be needed for defensive speed and range.

So when a team has a second baseman with Phillips' power it is not the norm and is a big plus.

I think you'll find that third base is frequently a power position in baseball because, while it requires athleticism and dexterity, it may not require the speed of the middle infield. So you tend to have more powerful hitters at that position, on average.

So it is not "stupid" or "illogical" to evaluate a hitter with focus on his position. For years, I heard Jason Larue defended because there are so few good hitting catchers.

RedsManRick
03-27-2008, 04:01 PM
Right, as I said, once the race was over, and EE had served his minor league stint, he hit much better. But to say that he's a better hitter or offensive player than Phillips goes way too far.

And, of course, this spring EE is hitting like he did last April to July. So it's hard to get very excited about him.

What does this mean? EE isn't "clutch"? Wins in August count the exact same time as wins in April. The idea that he couldn't hit when the Reds were in the race and that this is some failure we should be wary of is so laughable as to barely merit response.

He struggled in April and he struggled in July. He did NOT struggle April through July. In May and June, he hit better than BP did in April, June, or September. What does this mean? Who knows? None of those things are predictive of anything and any suggestion that they are borne out of some actual skill deficiency is specious at best. The whole seasonal tendency argument is already an exercise in randomness, and it's even more tortured here.

In so far as their performance relative to their position, I grant you an advantage to BP there -- so far. However, that's not what the question at the beginning of the thread was about. It's just who the better hitter is, period.

redsrule2500
03-27-2008, 04:05 PM
"Stupid?" "Illogical?"

Middle infielders are counted upon for their range and defensive prowess. Many teams have middle infielders who don't hit for power because often they are smaller or slighter individuals, as may be needed for defensive speed and range.

So when a team has a second baseman with Phillips' power it is not the norm and is a big plus.

I think you'll find that third base is frequently a power position in baseball because, while it requires athleticism and dexterity, it may not require the speed of the middle infield. So you tend to have more powerful hitters at that position, on average.

So it is not "stupid" or "illogical" to evaluate a hitter with focus on his position. For years, I heard Jason Larue defended because there are so few good hitting catchers.

I understand what you are saying, but I still stand by my point of it being illogical. We had power hitters at other positions, where many teams did not. I think a well balanced offense is all you need - not to have the guys at every certain position in the lineup match their given defensive position. Casey was a good hitter, and many would have agreed if he played somewhere else on the field, which is what makes no sense to me. Not everyone had a power hitting SS in Lopez, a power hitting RF in Kearns, for example.

TRF
03-27-2008, 04:09 PM
Right, as I said, once the race was over, and EE had served his minor league stint, he hit much better. But to say that he's a better hitter or offensive player than Phillips goes way too far.

And, of course, this spring EE is hitting like he did last April to July. So it's hard to get very excited about him.

And, of course, EE's OBP is nice -- personally, I'd sometimes bat him second -- but it's not high enough to justify a third baseman who fails to get extra base hits and doesn't hit lefties well.

So, hopefully, EE will make adjustments this year and show improvement. He certainly improved defensively last year, significantly. The Reds need him to hit, particularly against lefty pitching, because they only have one power bat that kills lefties, and that belongs to Phillips.

The race was over in July? It was over in August? The Reds didn't play teams that were in a fight for playoff spots in September?

Also take into consideration that BP led the league in HR's that just barely were HR's. He could easily see his power numbers take a big hit. I'm not saying it will happen, just that it could happen.

And why does "the race was over" discount EE's torrid september, but not Phillips rather weak Sept.?

September:

BP .762 OPS
EE .969 OPS

Kc61
03-27-2008, 04:09 PM
I understand what you are saying, but I still stand by my point of it being illogical. We had power hitters at other positions, where many teams did not. I think a well balanced offense is all you need - not to have the guys at every certain position in the lineup match their given defensive position. Casey was a good hitter, and many would have agreed if he played somewhere else on the field, which is what makes no sense to me. Not everyone had a power hitting SS in Lopez, a power hitting RF in Kearns, for example.

Obviously you take your power where you can get it. But what is EE's great value if he doesn't hit for power? He's not a leadoff man. He has ok speed, but not great. He isn't a .300 hitter. Even his OBP is good, but not great. His defense is improved, but he's not considered a top defensive third sacker.

EE needs to hit for decent power and needs to hit lefties. He didn't last year.

TRF
03-27-2008, 04:16 PM
Obviously you take your power where you can get it. But what is EE's great value if he doesn't hit for power? He's not a leadoff man. He has ok speed, but not great. He isn't a .300 hitter. Even his OBP is good, but not great. His defense is improved, but he's not considered a top defensive third sacker.

EE needs to hit for decent power and needs to hit lefties. He didn't last year.

BP needs to hit RH's at better than a .732 OPS. That's pretty bad considering MOST of the time, he's facing a RH. EE's OPS against RH last year was .790. Not great, but a LOT better than BP.

RedsManRick
03-27-2008, 04:18 PM
Obviously you take your power where you can get it. But what is EE's great value if he doesn't hit for power?

Let's be careful equating just HR with power. EE does need to hit more XBH, I agree, but even if we want to keep things simple, SLG is the way to judge that.


He's not a leadoff man. He has ok speed, but not great. He isn't a .300 hitter. Even his OBP is good, but not great.

"Leadoff man" is a role, not a measurement of ability. A .600 OPS "leadoff man" is worse than a .700 OPS "RBI guy". The value of speed is so tiny compared to power and OBP (as in 5-10 extra runs for the very best baserunners in the land) and often ends up being a negative for guys who run in to too many outs.


His defense is improved, but he's not considered a top defensive third sacker.
This is a thread about who the better hitter is.

[/quote]EE needs to hit for decent power and needs to hit lefties. He didn't last year.[/QUOTE]

EE hit lefties better than he hit righties last year, but he still managed a .790 OPS vR. Where was Phillips versus righties? Shouldn't we be care more about how they hit the pitchers against whom they get 70% of their at bats? Yes, Phillips destroyed lefties in 2007, but unless you plan on platooning him, Phillips is a liability as hitter 70% of the time. I'd rather a team of guys who are consistently pretty good than guys who are HOF against one pitcher and below average against the next.

Cyclone792
03-27-2008, 04:27 PM
BP 2006 RC/27: 4.7
EE 2006 RC/27: 6.1

BP 2007 RC/27: 5.2
EE 2007 RC/27: 6.1

Encarnacion's the better offensive force. Phillips might hit more home runs, might steal bases, and might have more flair, but offense is more than home runs, stolen bases, and flair.

Here's a fun stat, PA/Outs

BP 2006-07: 1.40
EE 2006-07: 1.51

For reference purposes, Albert Pujols' PA/Outs ratio for his career is 1.63 (this way you know that the higher the number, the better).

lollipopcurve
03-27-2008, 04:31 PM
I'd rather a team of guys who are consistently pretty good than guys who are HOF against one pitcher and below average against the next.

I'll take guys who have the ability to improve. So far, Phillips has shown that. EdE hasn't. For me, it's too soon to know who's better offensively. Phillips is on a better trajectory, while EdE's discipline leads me to believe he can take a step forward.

Too soon to tell.

Highlifeman21
03-27-2008, 04:32 PM
I would gladly trade most of BP's power in a heartbeat if it meant that he could get on base more consistently, and actually take a walk once in a blue moon. BP's shown during his time with the Reds that he's not a liability on the basepaths, and not giving away free outs. What value he might lose with less HRs, he would more than gain with getting on base more often, and then being a green light threat everytime he's on 1B. IMO, BP has the potential to be an annual league-leader in SB and NSB. The only problem is that you need to get on base in order to steal bases. BP continues to have a problem getting on base.

I remember BP's stretch last year trying to get to #30. Wow was it painful to watch.

RedsManRick
03-27-2008, 04:34 PM
Here's a fun stat, PA/Outs

BP 2006-07: 1.40
EE 2006-07: 1.51

For reference purposes, Albert Pujols' PA/Outs ratio for his career is 1.63 (this way you know that the higher the number, the better).

Does Outs include double plays, caught stealing, etc.?

I'm never a big fan of per/out metrics as they aren't intuitive to interpret. I'd much rather see:

Outs/PA

BP 2006-07: .714
EE 2006-07: .622

Though if non-batted ball outs are factored in, the more comfortable interpretation wouldn't really be accurate anyways.

Cyclone792
03-27-2008, 04:43 PM
I'll take guys who have the ability to improve. So far, Phillips has shown that. EdE hasn't. For me, it's too soon to know who's better offensively. Phillips is on a better trajectory, while EdE's discipline leads me to believe he can take a step forward.

Too soon to tell.

BP has a way to go before he even reaches EE's level as an offensive force.

BP 2006-07: 45 GIDPs
EE 2006-07: 14 GIDPs

And EE has BP by around 30 points in on-base percentage over the last two seasons.

The homers, stolen bases, and flair is nice, but seriously ... the .330 on-base percentage and 45 GIDPs in two seasons isn't nice and they play a major role in determining overall offensive performance.


Does Outs include double plays?

I'm never a big fan of per/out metrics as they aren't intuitive to interpret. I'd much rather see:

Outs/PA

BP 2006-07: .714
EE 2006-07: .622

Though if non-batted ball outs are factored in, the more comfortable interpretation wouldn't really be accurate anyways.

Outs = (AB - H + CS + GIDP + SH + SF)

RedsManRick
03-27-2008, 04:57 PM
Regarding speed, according to Dan Fox's comprehensive baserunning value analysis, the top baserunner in baseball added 11.47 runs in 2007. BP did not crack the top 15 -- #15 was at 6.18 runs.

Looking just at the stolen base component of that, the top SB value guy was at 6. It just isn't a big piece of the pie.

gm
03-27-2008, 06:23 PM
I remember BP's stretch last year trying to get to #30. Wow was it painful to watch.

Especially when BP hit a flyball off the RCF wall in Milwaukee, admired it as he jogged down the first base line then got thrown out at 2b

(BTW...Mac didn't make an example out of him the way Narron did with EdE...)

Reds1
03-27-2008, 07:05 PM
Encarnacion wasn't hitting a bunch of doubles and homeruns, but he was knocking in runs both pre and post All-Star break.

Encarnacion Pre All-Star: .270 AVG with 36 RBIs in 256 ABs
Encarnacion Post All-Star: .308 AVG with 40 RBIs in 246 ABs

Phillips Pre All-Star: .276 AVG with 47 RBIs in 352 ABs
Phillips Post All-Star: .302 AVG with 47 RBIs in 298 ABs



Encarnacion has also been a better hitter with RISP in the majors.

Then why in most all fantasy drafts is Phillips taken early and in many drafts EE goes undrafted? Easy. It's the uncertainty. The unknown. If EE is a better hitter then BP which I hope he is this year - we are going to the playoffs. - LOL Ok, I know we need pitching, but I'm making a point.

TRF
03-27-2008, 10:10 PM
Then why in most all fantasy drafts is Phillips taken early and in many drafts EE goes undrafted? Easy. It's the uncertainty. The unknown. If EE is a better hitter then BP which I hope he is this year - we are going to the playoffs. - LOL Ok, I know we need pitching, but I'm making a point.

No, he's taken early because EE is undervalued, and 2B isn't a premium position for offensive talent. Right now it's Utley then a big dropoff to Phillips in the NL.

Cedric
03-27-2008, 10:26 PM
Let's be careful equating just HR with power. EE does need to hit more XBH, I agree, but even if we want to keep things simple, SLG is the way to judge that.



"Leadoff man" is a role, not a measurement of ability. A .600 OPS "leadoff man" is worse than a .700 OPS "RBI guy". The value of speed is so tiny compared to power and OBP (as in 5-10 extra runs for the very best baserunners in the land) and often ends up being a negative for guys who run in to too many outs.


This is a thread about who the better hitter is.

EE needs to hit for decent power and needs to hit lefties. He didn't last year.[/QUOTE]

EE hit lefties better than he hit righties last year, but he still managed a .790 OPS vR. Where was Phillips versus righties? Shouldn't we be care more about how they hit the pitchers against whom they get 70% of their at bats? Yes, Phillips destroyed lefties in 2007, but unless you plan on platooning him, Phillips is a liability as hitter 70% of the time. I'd rather a team of guys who are consistently pretty good than guys who are HOF against one pitcher and below average against the next.[/QUOTE]

Liability? I know Phillips doesn't walk enough to fit into your style of player, but this is laughable to me.

If you walk you will be loved by Redszone no matter what. I'm sure some people here would still argue that D'Angelo Jiminez was better than Phillips because he walked a lot. Sometimes the narrow minded view is what happens when you look at nothing but OPS.

TRF
03-27-2008, 10:32 PM
Liability? I know Phillips doesn't walk enough to fit into your style of player, but this is laughable to me.

If you walk you will be loved by Redszone no matter what. I'm sure some people here would still argue that D'Angelo Jiminez was better than Phillips because he walked a lot. Sometimes the narrow minded view is what happens when you look at nothing but OPS.

The look at OPS component stats. BP didn't hit RH's, period. he didn't get on base, .310, and he didn't hit them for anything resembling power, .422. He made hay against LH, and it to some extent skews the perception of him being a good hitter. Think Mariano Duncan in 1990, minus the HR's.

Reds1
03-27-2008, 10:32 PM
No, he's taken early because EE is undervalued, and 2B isn't a premium position for offensive talent. Right now it's Utley then a big dropoff to Phillips in the NL.

I understand the position, but he's available of the wire in most leagues.

RedsManRick
03-27-2008, 10:34 PM
Liability? I know Phillips doesn't walk enough to fit into your style of player, but this is laughable to me.

If you walk you will be loved by Redszone no matter what. I'm sure some people here would still argue that D'Angelo Jiminez was better than Phillips because he walked a lot. Sometimes the narrow minded view is what happens when you look at nothing but OPS.

In 2007, this is how Brandon Phillips hit righties: .262/.310/.428. Or is actually looking at performance too narrow minded. How do you measure production? A big smile? A nice quote? Stolen bases? What exactly does Brandon Phillips do against right handed pitchers that makes you think he's not a poor choice to bat in cleanup spot?

I thought I was pretty clear in asserting that the entire package of Brandon Phillips is a really good thing. He plays very solid defense and destroys left handed pitching. He's one of the top overall 2B in baseball. Against lefties, put him anywhere 2 through 4 in the lineup and I'll be thrilled. But that doesn't excuse the fact that he's below average against righties and doesn't belong in the clean-up spot against them.

I can understand frustration with those of us who relentlessly pound the OBP mantra, but come on Cedric, a .738 OPS has no business in 4 hole of a lineup. He didn't hit for average. He didn't get on base. He hit for mediocre power. He hit in to lots of double plays. I don't see how you can argue the point. What exactly is narrow minded about this line of reasoning?

Cedric
03-27-2008, 10:40 PM
In 2007, this is how Brandon Phillips hit righties: .262/.310/.428. Or is actually looking at performance too narrow minded. How do you measure production? A big smile? A nice quote? Stolen bases? What exactly does Brandon Phillips do against right handed pitchers that makes you think he's not a poor choice to bat in cleanup spot?

I thought I was pretty clear in asserting that the entire package of Brandon Phillips is a really good thing. He plays very solid defense and destroys left handed pitching. He's one of the top overall 2B in baseball. Against lefties, put him anywhere 2 through 4 in the lineup and I'll be thrilled. But that doesn't excuse the fact that he's below average against righties and doesn't belong in the clean-up spot against them.

I can understand frustration with those of us who relentlessly pound the OBP mantra, but come on Cedric, a .738 OPS has no business in 4 hole of a lineup. He didn't hit for average. He didn't get on base. He hit for mediocre power. He hit in to lots of double plays. I don't see how you can argue the point.

I only read liability. I didn't see anything about his spot in the order in that post. I honestly don't care about order either. Though I obviously agree he shouldn't be a cleanup hitter.

Patrick Bateman
03-27-2008, 10:46 PM
I understand the position, but he's available of the wire in most leagues.

Well there are 2 key differences here:

1. Relative to position standards, Brandon Phillips is the superior hitter. The value he brings with his bat is more than Encarnacion because of his ability to play a skill position.

2. Brandon Phillips' skill set is much more condusive to fantasy baseball success. He puts the ball in play much more making him a better counting stats type of guy with more at-bats. He isn't penalized for his lack of walks, and instead is rewared with extra RBI's.

Of course, point 2 has nothing to do with a fair argument of who the better hitter is. Overall, I'd argue that forgetting about position standards, Encarnacion brings more offensive production to the table. The edge Phillips has in power is negated by EE's superior on base ability.

They do bring obviously different strengths to the table. EE fits well at the top of the order where he can get on base for power oriented guys like Phillips. In that regard they could compliment each other well. I don't think there is an obvious answer here... I think it's pretty close with different skills. You could end up giving the edge to Phillips since he is great on the basepaths. But like most others, I always err on the side of OBP, and if it's a close debate I'll go with the guy that gets on base.

RedsManRick
03-27-2008, 10:47 PM
I only read liability. I didn't see anything about his spot in the order in that post. I honestly don't care about order either. Though I obviously agree he shouldn't be a cleanup hitter.

The entire last paragraph was pointing out that while Phillips hit left handed pitcher very well, he hit right handed pitcher poorly. That's really the key issue with Phillips. While his overall line was pretty solid, it came as a result of his dominance in about 30% of his plate appearances (against left-handed pitching).

The initial purpose of pointing this out was to juxtapose the point being made earlier about EE and his slumps in April and July. EE struggling through 1/3 of his season was being used to suggest he barely merited a starting job whereas Phillips was getting a free pass despite struggling through 2/3 of his (his plate appearances versus righties) .

TRF
03-27-2008, 10:49 PM
I only read liability. I didn't see anything about his spot in the order in that post. I honestly don't care about order either. Though I obviously agree he shouldn't be a cleanup hitter.

Then where do you see anything but in 70% of his AB's? Take a look at Felipe Lopez in 2006 for the Nats. Awful OPS vs. RH and LH, but at least he got on base, .344 against LH, .377 against RH. No fielding comment, this is about hitting. He wasn't killing the Nats or the Reds at the plate, becaus he got on base. it made his SB's MUCH more valuable than BP's.

RedsManRick
03-27-2008, 10:53 PM
Then why in most all fantasy drafts is Phillips taken early and in many drafts EE goes undrafted? Easy. It's the uncertainty. The unknown. If EE is a better hitter then BP which I hope he is this year - we are going to the playoffs. - LOL Ok, I know we need pitching, but I'm making a point.

What leagues do you play in? EE's average draft puts him in the middle teens and he's 100% owned in Yahoo.

But fantasy value and real life value are only roughly correlated. Speed is grossly disproportionately valuable in fantasy, and OBP ignored -- both things which inflate Phillips' fantasy value relative to his real life value from the offensive perspective.

Fantasy also uses raw counting stats, which ignore the reality of the 150 plate appearance advantage Phillips got over EE --which is not really a reflection on their ability as a hitter so much as it is EE's defense problems which led to his demotion and the obsession with batting Phillips higher in the order versus righties when his performance hasn't merited it.

An aside, once you've decided on your best starting 8, it's pretty simplistic to force guys in to certain offensive "roles" based on their position. This is something Dusty has done throughout his managerial career, though he's certainly not alone. He seems to be convinced that your CF and SS belong at the top of the order, regardless of what the actual skill sets of his players dictate.

EE's skill set lends itself well to the 2 hole, where his OBP and doubles stroke is maximized. Hatteberg likewise was best utilized at the top of the order, rather than getting on base ahead of the bottom of the order. To that point the skill set of guys like Phillips and Patterson (low OBP, good power, good speed) is ideal for the 5-7 spots. The power allows them to drive in runs with the guys on base ahead of them. However, the low OBP is less of a liability with poor bats behind him. Further, speed is best utilized in situations where the guys following don't have a lot of power and aren't as able to move runners around the bases with their bats, creating an ideal situation for the runner to move himself around the bases when the cost of making an out is less and the value of being on 2nd or 3rd base (relative to first) is maximized.

Reds1
03-28-2008, 12:09 AM
Well there are 2 key differences here:

1. Relative to position standards, Brandon Phillips is the superior hitter. The value he brings with his bat is more than Encarnacion because of his ability to play a skill position.

2. Brandon Phillips' skill set is much more condusive to fantasy baseball success. He puts the ball in play much more making him a better counting stats type of guy with more at-bats. He isn't penalized for his lack of walks, and instead is rewared with extra RBI's.

Of course, point 2 has nothing to do with a fair argument of who the better hitter is. Overall, I'd argue that forgetting about position standards, Encarnacion brings more offensive production to the table. The edge Phillips has in power is negated by EE's superior on base ability.

They do bring obviously different strengths to the table. EE fits well at the top of the order where he can get on base for power oriented guys like Phillips. In that regard they could compliment each other well. I don't think there is an obvious answer here... I think it's pretty close with different skills. You could end up giving the edge to Phillips since he is great on the basepaths. But like most others, I always err on the side of OBP, and if it's a close debate I'll go with the guy that gets on base.


I know this is more then hitting, but have to add. BP not only has more speed, better power, but he is also superior defense. A total all around better player. Just signed to a long term deal making huge money. EE if you recall was demoted to AAA last year. I give you he had a fantastic 2nd half of the year, but the question is who is better and you can throw all the stats out you want, but if for my money I'm starting a team I start with BP over EE any day of the week. EE has come accross lazy (not running grounders out), defensive liability, and frankly has never put a whole season together in his career. I really don't see why so much passion for EE over BP. I don't even think it's close. Power, speed, defense, great attitude, fans love him, team guy, leader - what else you want. When Griffey gone he's the face of the organization along with Dunn (if we resign Dunn). EE will never be the complete player. However, we are talking about hitting, but others started talking about defense and total package so I added that.

*BaseClogger*
03-28-2008, 01:11 AM
I think a little too much weight is being given to 2007 stats in this thread. Both of these guys played full time in 2006 as well.

EE OPS+
2006: 108
2007: 101

BP OPS+
2006: 88
2007: 105

note: OPS+ normalizes for park and league.

EE EqA
2006: .276
2007: .268

BP EqA
2006: .258
2007: .271

note: EqA league average is .260. EqA includes baserunning.

I'd say Brandon Phillips was the better hitter in 2007. However, EE was much better in 2006, is younger, and has been mishandled by the organization. EE is the better hitter going forward, since Phillips is coming off of a career season IMO. I'm not sure if TRF intended this thread's focus as 'best career hitter', 'best hitter in 2007', or 'best hitter going forward'...

Patrick Bateman
03-28-2008, 02:01 AM
I know this is more then hitting, but have to add. BP not only has more speed, better power, but he is also superior defense. A total all around better player. Just signed to a long term deal making huge money. EE if you recall was demoted to AAA last year. I give you he had a fantastic 2nd half of the year, but the question is who is better and you can throw all the stats out you want, but if for my money I'm starting a team I start with BP over EE any day of the week. EE has come accross lazy (not running grounders out), defensive liability, and frankly has never put a whole season together in his career. I really don't see why so much passion for EE over BP. I don't even think it's close. Power, speed, defense, great attitude, fans love him, team guy, leader - what else you want. When Griffey gone he's the face of the organization along with Dunn (if we resign Dunn). EE will never be the complete player.


Please recall that I was in no way discussing the total merits of each player. I was simply trying to convey the one simple point, of all things equal, who is the better hitter? For that, you have to ignore the relative stength of each position, and things like fielding.

The question stemmed from the prespective of the Reds line-up, and where you would hit each player based on their hitting ability. From a total value perspective, I agree,Phillips is far more value. Firstly he is a better hitter compared to his peers, additionally he provides top notch defense and speed. All factors that he has an easy edge over EE.

But if the question is a straight up, who is better at creating runs, I give the edge to EE, even though Phillips is overall easily the mor valuable player.

Ron Madden
03-28-2008, 04:08 AM
If they both stay healthy and play 15 years?

My money is on Edwin to have a better career as a hitter.

TRF
03-28-2008, 09:53 AM
I'm not sure if TRF intended this thread's focus as 'best career hitter', 'best hitter in 2007', or 'best hitter going forward'...

My intent was a brand new discussion, which this has been. I'm a little weary of the Bailey,Cueto,Volquez,Belisle,Fogg,Affeldt discussions.

I needed something fresh.

Both players have some similarities, and some striking differences. Let's take defense for example. I don't believe that BP is better defensively respective to position than EE. Yes, I'd say he's better at throwing the ball to 1B, but again respective to position, I don't believe he has that much more range. EE has a better arm too. We've all seen him throw runners out from his knees. His footwork was greatly improved in the second half leading to a big drop in his errors. He's got cat-like reflexes. Balls just do not get by him. His problem has always been the throw on ROUTINE plays, but he seems to have put a lot of that behind him.


I'd say Brandon Phillips was the better hitter in 2007. However, EE was much better in 2006, is younger, and has been mishandled by the organization. EE is the better hitter going forward, since Phillips is coming off of a career season IMO.
Those numbers are pretty close in 2007. If BP was the better hitter, it was by a very slight margin.

Reds1
03-28-2008, 02:41 PM
EE batting .159 in the spring with a ton of abs. I'm listening to the game right now and they are very concerned about him. I'm just telling you - he hasn't been able to put it together a full year. He seems to me to be a bit of a head case. I'll take all bets on who is the better hitter in the long run. Remember, BP has only put it together in the past couple years. I think he'll continue to improve. He's the real deal.

Reds1
03-28-2008, 02:42 PM
If they both stay healthy and play 15 years?

My money is on Edwin to have a better career as a hitter.

I'll take that bet! Let's keep this link and in 5 yrs compare. :) Just kidding, but I'll take that bet.

TRF
03-28-2008, 02:47 PM
EE batting .159 in the spring with a ton of abs. I'm listening to the game right now and they are very concerned about him. I'm just telling you - he hasn't been able to put it together a full year. He seems to me to be a bit of a head case. I'll take all bets on who is the better hitter in the long run. Remember, BP has only put it together in the past couple years. I think he'll continue to improve. He's the real deal.

Everything you just said about EE, the Indians said about Phillips. Remember, EE is younger than Phillips too, and has a better offensive skillset: more patience at the plate, hits RH much better. Put me down for betting on EE to have the better year in 2008.

Reds1
03-28-2008, 02:58 PM
Everything you just said about EE, the Indians said about Phillips. Remember, EE is younger than Phillips too, and has a better offensive skillset: more patience at the plate, hits RH much better. Put me down for betting on EE to have the better year in 2008.

I hope so! I'm not saying get rid of him. Just that I like BP better. We can only hope. Going to be a nice line up at least I hope.

Kc61
03-28-2008, 03:17 PM
EE batting .159 in the spring with a ton of abs. I'm listening to the game right now and they are very concerned about him. I'm just telling you - he hasn't been able to put it together a full year. He seems to me to be a bit of a head case. I'll take all bets on who is the better hitter in the long run. Remember, BP has only put it together in the past couple years. I think he'll continue to improve. He's the real deal.

Most hitters, after initial success, are faced with pitching adjustments. The league starts to understand the weaknesses and it's up to the hitter to "counter adjust."

EE did well in early 2006, then it appeared that the league adjusted. As I recall, he didn't do too well later in that season and it carried over to 2007. He did get hot in late 2007, after the Reds were essentially out of it.

EE has the tools, but the league seems to have figured him out. So far.

TRF
03-28-2008, 03:48 PM
He did get hot in late 2007, after the Reds were essentially out of it.

EE has the tools, but the league seems to have figured him out. So far.

So he got hot, but it doesn't count because the Reds were out of it, but at the same time BP, who flat stunk in September, gets a pass?

That makes no sense whatsoever. It also ignores EE's rather impressive August. .350 BA, .374 OBP, .534 SLG.

How about June? did it count in June when he was light year's ahead of BP?

EE had 2 bad months: April and July. They count. do the other four months count, or do they not because the Reds were out of the race?

Did it count then or did it not matter because the Reds were out of the race?

Kc61
03-28-2008, 04:01 PM
So he got hot, but it doesn't count because the Reds were out of it, but at the same time BP, who flat stunk in September, gets a pass?

That makes no sense whatsoever. It also ignores EE's rather impressive August. .350 BA, .374 OBP, .534 SLG.

Did it count then or did it not matter because the Reds were out of the race?

I don't give Phillips a "pass" for his slumps. But EE just hasn't convinced me yet. His slump lasted many months in 2006 and 2007 and, while I acknowledge his late season improvement last year, the jury is very much out on this guy.

On the other hand, EE's defense really improved last year, enormously so. I expect him to be a solid average third baseman defensively this year.

Not yet convinced on his bat.

SteelSD
03-29-2008, 12:12 AM
I don't give Phillips a "pass" for his slumps. But EE just hasn't convinced me yet. His slump lasted many months in 2006 and 2007 and, while I acknowledge his late season improvement last year, the jury is very much out on this guy.

We need to remember that baseball is a game of streaks. Too much inherent randomness to be anything otherwise. What you might refer to as a "slump" for September of 2006 looks more like a simple BABIP self-correction over 102 PA (.236 BABIP) versus his 167 PA (@.335 BABIP) from June through August. Add everything together and you get scary-close 2006 1st Half splits (.835 OPS) versus the second half of the season (.829 OPS). There wasn't some "slump" lasting "many months" in 2006. Nor did such a "slump" last "many months" into 2007.

In 2007, Encarnacion started slowly with a March/April OPS (.554) that looked a lot like Sept. 2006 (.560 OPS). Yet, we again see a lower-than-expected BABIP (.270) over a paltry 87 PA. Random.

And here's how dramatically small sample sizes are affected by single games:

On April 29th, Encarnacion produced a 3-for-4 effort at the plate with a Triple. That was enough to raise his OPS 77 points. From April 29th through May 9th (when he was sent down), Encarnacion had raised his OPS 103 points. His SLG was up 82 points. The guy was actually showing signs of coming out of it when he was sent down. In fact, he'd produced only two hitless games in May prior to his demotion. The move to demote Encarnacion was driven by a team that doesn't understand that performance in a highly random enterprise isn't solely based on effort. Had they been looking at something as simple as a graph trend-line, they'd have understood that Encarnacion was a player trending up and that a demotion was not necessary in order to jump-start performance.

When Encarnacion was demoted, his OBP was .301. Over a full season, Brandon Phillips has never produced more than 3 On-Base events per 9 PA. Yet at his worst in 2007, Encarnacion was producing 3 On-Base events every 10 PA. That's "slump-proofing" in a nutshell. The BABIP from March/April was due to self-correct, did self-correct, and could have been expected to self-correct even if Encarnacion hadn't been sent down.

And then there was July, 2007 where Encarnacion produced a .614 OPS. As of July 1st, 2007, the Reds were in last place in the NL Central- 16.5 games back. The Reds were completely "out of it" at this point. So if the assumption is that Encarnacion only produces when the Reds are "out of it", why didn't Encarnacion produce in July, 2007?

In a game of streaks, slumps, and randomness, it all counts. All of it. Against positional average, Brandon Phillips was worth more Runs to the team offensively than Encarnacion. But it's Encarnacion who was the more productive hitter regardless of position.

Reds1
03-29-2008, 12:52 AM
Most hitters, after initial success, are faced with pitching adjustments. The league starts to understand the weaknesses and it's up to the hitter to "counter adjust."

EE did well in early 2006, then it appeared that the league adjusted. As I recall, he didn't do too well later in that season and it carried over to 2007. He did get hot in late 2007, after the Reds were essentially out of it.

EE has the tools, but the league seems to have figured him out. So far.

I just hope his spring results don't go into the season. We can't have EE in the .100s in BA for any length of time. The key to this season is getting started quickly. BP has been solid all spring. Just more consistant. I'm not saying EE won't be a better hitter, but I personally am very worried about him. If Gonz gets back and EE struggles look for Keppinger to steal some 3B time. The man is a hitting machine.

Ron Madden
03-29-2008, 05:28 AM
You have look deeper than just BA to truly understand just how productive any hitter really is.

Reds1
03-29-2008, 09:16 AM
You have look deeper than just BA to truly understand just how productive any hitter really is.

I agree with that totally. This spring EE has done nothing if that's what you mean by that statement.

Ron Madden
03-29-2008, 06:02 PM
I wouldn't want to construct my 25 man roster based on spring training numbers. :)

bucksfan2
03-29-2008, 06:44 PM
I just hope his spring results don't go into the season. We can't have EE in the .100s in BA for any length of time. The key to this season is getting started quickly. BP has been solid all spring. Just more consistant. I'm not saying EE won't be a better hitter, but I personally am very worried about him. If Gonz gets back and EE struggles look for Keppinger to steal some 3B time. The man is a hitting machine.

There have always been people who are slow starters. I hope this year that Dusty will find a way to motivate Edwin to get him to produce. It was no secret that in the past Narron wanted nothing to do with a slumping Edwin. I think Dusty realizes that a productive Edwin does this team a lot more good than having Freel fill in at 3b.

TRF
04-22-2008, 09:39 AM
I think EE is producing now.

lollipopcurve
04-22-2008, 10:00 AM
I think EE is producing now.

He's absolutely crushing the ball. And BP looks as bad as I've seen him since he became a Red. It would be nice to get them both going at once.

TRF
04-22-2008, 10:34 AM
This sure is an up and down team. Patterson/BP up to start the season, EE/Dunn down. Dunner needs to get it going, but EE is just unconcious at the plate right now.

Reds1
04-22-2008, 11:37 AM
I'm impressed his fielding is not messing with his head more. Very good. Tell me - why do pitchers throw this guy high fastballs. Maybe the best right handed high fast ball hitter in the league!

TRF
04-22-2008, 08:34 PM
Edwin is just ridiculous right now. He's extended his hitting streak to 12 games.

reds44
04-22-2008, 08:39 PM
He has taken his average from .083 to .279 and is now OPSing .946.

Highlifeman21
04-22-2008, 08:45 PM
Let's not put the cart before the horse.

I would be estatic if EE OPS's North of .800, but I fear that he'll continue to be a rollercoaster (of love, say what?) at the plate.

Thankfully, at the beginning of the year, when EE couldn't pour piss out of a boot if you put the instructions on the heel, EE was walking. Now he's hitting the ball, and continuing to walk. But, as Steel's accurately informed us, baseball is a game of streaks. EE was cold, now he's hot, which only tells us that he'll go cold again. When will that happen? Hard to say. Hopefully not anytime soon, but only time will tell.

TRF
04-22-2008, 08:53 PM
Let's not put the cart before the horse.

I would be estatic if EE OPS's North of .800, but I fear that he'll continue to be a rollercoaster (of love, say what?) at the plate.

Thankfully, at the beginning of the year, when EE couldn't pour piss out of a boot if you put the instructions on the heel, EE was walking. Now he's hitting the ball, and continuing to walk. But, as Steel's accurately informed us, baseball is a game of streaks. EE was cold, now he's hot, which only tells us that he'll go cold again. When will that happen? Hard to say. Hopefully not anytime soon, but only time will tell.

Yeah, but you just noted the difference between the two. Now BP isn't hitting, and he isn't walking either. All he is now is an out machine, somethin EE has not been at any point this year. or last year for that matter.

Patrick Bateman
04-22-2008, 08:58 PM
Let's not put the cart before the horse.

I would be estatic if EE OPS's North of .800, but I fear that he'll continue to be a rollercoaster (of love, say what?) at the plate.


As inconsistent as he is, EE is a pretty easy bet to be around .800. Career wise, he's at .804, which is mostly stunted by his rookie season (.744). Even last year during his struggles he posted a .794.

I'd set your sites higher for EE, at this point, .800 looks like his low point, more reasonably a .830-.840 guy.

reds44
04-22-2008, 09:01 PM
B-Phil goes boom.

God, I hope this is the offense busting out and not the weekly huge game followed by trash.

Highlifeman21
04-22-2008, 09:01 PM
Yeah, but you just noted the difference between the two. Now BP isn't hitting, and he isn't walking either. All he is now is an out machine, somethin EE has not been at any point this year. or last year for that matter.

I'm pretty sure I've never been on-record saying BP's a better hitter than EE, but you're absolutely right about EE walking and BP not. Even when EE's not hitting, he'll take walks. Even Homer Bailey couldn't walk BP. BP would either strike out, or make an out within 3 pitches. BP's a Vlad Guerrero-esque free-swinger, minus the offensive production.

Offensively, give me EE over BP anytime. Defensively....

Highlifeman21
04-22-2008, 09:04 PM
As inconsistent as he is, EE is a pretty easy bet to be around .800. Career wise, he's at .804, which is mostly stunted by his rookie season (.744). Even last year during his struggles he posted a .794.

I'd set your sites higher for EE, at this point, .800 looks like his low point, more reasonably a .830-.840 guy.

To me, there's not much difference between .800 and .840. If EE can consistently OPS North of .850, then we've got a franchise 3B on our hands.

TRF
04-22-2008, 09:10 PM
defensively is another thread. Defensively, I can't name 5 players I'd rather have than BP.

SteelSD
04-22-2008, 11:18 PM
Let's not put the cart before the horse.

I would be estatic if EE OPS's North of .800, but I fear that he'll continue to be a rollercoaster (of love, say what?) at the plate.

Thankfully, at the beginning of the year, when EE couldn't pour piss out of a boot if you put the instructions on the heel, EE was walking. Now he's hitting the ball, and continuing to walk. But, as Steel's accurately informed us, baseball is a game of streaks. EE was cold, now he's hot, which only tells us that he'll go cold again. When will that happen? Hard to say. Hopefully not anytime soon, but only time will tell.

What most impressed me about Encarnacion's slump is that he was "failing well"- high IsoD while not acquiring a bunch of hits or bases. That shows me he is maturing even though a lot of folks considered him to be "lost". He wasn't. That high IsoD projected that he'd hit soon and he has. Should Encarnacion continue the trend of being able to produce high IsoD numbers when the hits aren't falling, he'll likely be one of the most slump-proof members of the team.

Oh, and a guy who projects like that is someone you also hitting higher than 6th.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 06:55 AM
What most impressed me about Encarnacion's slump is that he was "failing well"- high IsoD while not acquiring a bunch of hits or bases. That shows me he is maturing even though a lot of folks considered him to be "lost". He wasn't. That high IsoD projected that he'd hit soon and he has. Should Encarnacion continue the trend of being able to produce high IsoD numbers when the hits aren't falling, he'll likely be one of the most slump-proof members of the team.

Oh, and a guy who projects like that is someone you also hitting higher than 6th.

The Dusty probably thinks IsoD is how NBA teams will attempt to defend the likes of LeBron James, or Chris Paul in the playoffs...

paintmered
04-23-2008, 07:00 AM
The Dusty probably thinks IsoD is how NBA teams will attempt to defend the likes of LeBron James, or Chris Paul in the playoffs...

Maybe the Reds should play a box-and-one against Bill Hall...

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 07:01 AM
Maybe the Reds should play a box-and-one against Bill Hall...

If there's a baseball version of "Hack-a-Shaq", that's what I want the Reds to do to Bill F'n Hall.

membengal
04-23-2008, 07:14 AM
Reds fans as of 4/12...Brandon!

Reds fans as of 4/22...Eddie!

Hopefully someday, Reds fans...Both!

By the way, in a coda to the above discussion, I agree that EE was holding his own with his walks during his initial slump, something Brandon still refuses to do. Still, Phillips, even when slumping awfully, helps this team a ton on a nightly basis with the glove. I just wish Dusty would be a little quicker to slide a cold bat down in the order for a short minute until the bat heats up. Maybe the HR last night from Phillips will get him going.

paintmered
04-23-2008, 07:28 AM
If there's a baseball version of "Hack-a-Shaq", that's what I want the Reds to do to Bill F'n Hall.

I think his name is Kyle Farnsworth.

membengal
04-23-2008, 07:47 AM
Hall is batting .180 on the year.

That apparently means against teams not named "Reds" he's hitting negative 375.