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View Full Version : Bill Bray optioned....and other moves



Joseph
03-28-2008, 09:42 AM
Per 1530, Bray was optioned, Capellan was returned to the Sox, and Andy Phillips reassigned to minor league camp.

Phhhl
03-28-2008, 09:43 AM
Oh no. Bad move with Bray. Guess money does make a difference.

Highlifeman21
03-28-2008, 09:44 AM
3 down, 6 to go?

BRM
03-28-2008, 09:45 AM
Guess money does make a difference.

It always does.

redsrule2500
03-28-2008, 09:46 AM
Welcome Mike Stanton!

westofyou
03-28-2008, 09:46 AM
It always does.

yep... always will too.

BRM
03-28-2008, 09:47 AM
yep... always will too.

And not just in Cincinnati.

Cyclone792
03-28-2008, 09:49 AM
So if Stanton, Fogg, and Castro are all on the roster then it looks like the Reds plan on taking a 22-man roster and a Gang of Three north.

cincy09
03-28-2008, 09:55 AM
What a joke.........

Status quo?

TRF
03-28-2008, 09:55 AM
i just puked in my mind.

mind vomit... mmmmmm.

If Castro is on the roster, then, well, I'll still watch. But i won't be giddy when i do.

Falls City Beer
03-28-2008, 09:56 AM
So if Stanton, Fogg, and Castro are all on the roster then it looks like the Reds plan on taking a 22-man roster and a Gang of Three north.

While I don't care much for Fogg, he's slightly more than a warm body.

On the other hand, Stanton and Castro exert gravitational pull.

Nugget
03-28-2008, 09:56 AM
Judging by what Baker said in another thread the problem with Bray is durability and health - I mean you want as much out of your 25 as possible - maybe Bray was still pulling up a little too sore after play.

Strikes Out Looking
03-28-2008, 09:56 AM
I would guess the gang of three have April to play themselves off the roster. It was in May of last year that Rheal Cormier became an ex-Red.

IslandRed
03-28-2008, 09:57 AM
Besides the obvious explanation of "he had options," it could buy them some time to trade Stanton. He also had a shoulder problem earlier and they may not feel he's quite full strength yet. But I still would have preferred to see him on the team. He will be soon enough, I imagine.

BRM
03-28-2008, 09:57 AM
While I don't care much for Fogg, he's slightly more than a warm body.

On the other hand, Stanton and Castro exert gravitational pull.

What about Bako? He might make it as well. Can't have Javy as the backup catcher since he's the team's best pinch-hitter.

Roy Tucker
03-28-2008, 09:58 AM
I just wonder how much patience they'll have with Stanton.

BRM
03-28-2008, 09:58 AM
I just wonder how much patience they'll have with Stanton.

3 million dollars worth.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 09:59 AM
Pass the Geritol and prune juice.

BRM
03-28-2008, 10:01 AM
Stanton, Affeldt, and Mercker are the three lefties in the pen. That's quality right there.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:01 AM
There is little reason to believe any of the the three lefties(Stanton, Mercker, Affeldt) are going to have much success. ANother sign that they are not really serious about winning.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:02 AM
Will Votto be next?

jojo
03-28-2008, 10:03 AM
Bray didn't even face 30 batters this spring after coming off of an injury plagued '07 with lingering issues coming in...

This has less to do with money and more to do with 7 innings in ST not meaning anything. A lot of people have apparently used permanent marker for Bray but his 7 innings need some context IMHO.

He'll be up soon enough if he's ready and they need him.

BRM
03-28-2008, 10:03 AM
ANother sign that they are not really serious about winning.

Sure they are. It's just that there are caveats.

Cyclone792
03-28-2008, 10:03 AM
While I don't care much for Fogg, he's slightly more than a warm body.

On the other hand, Stanton and Castro exert gravitational pull.

Unfortunately, my guess is that Fogg will be firmly in the second category by this time next month.

I'm already seeing images of the Phillies lighting him up next Friday night.

Kc61
03-28-2008, 10:03 AM
So Bray gets sent down and Redszone, as usual, turns it into an attack on Castro. Makes sense I guess.

So the Reds' lefty pen is Mercker, Stanton, and Affeldt. And the AA/AAA pen have lefties Bray, Pelland, and Viola. I hope the Reds picked the right three. I will say this -- nobody can complain that the Reds lack experience among its bullpen lefties.

My big concern, as per the Enquirer article today, is whether Stanton and Mercker, at this stage, can pitch multiple innings and help bridge the gap to the back-end bullpen guys.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:04 AM
Bray didn't even face 30 batters this spring after coming off of an injury plagued '07 with lingering issues coming in...

This has less to do with money and more to do with 7 innings in ST not meaning anything.I can't remember how many guys Mercker faced in 2007. Somebody help me. :p:

remdog
03-28-2008, 10:05 AM
As I said in anothr thread, I wrote off '08 when the Reds failed to land a #3 starter. Keeping Stanton, Castro and Merker would simply confirm my suspcions.

Rem

Cyclone792
03-28-2008, 10:05 AM
So Bray gets sent down and Redszone, as usual, turns it into an attack on Castro. Makes sense I guess.

Keeping Stanton over Bray is a symbol of roster mismanagement, and Castro fits in the same category as roster mismanagement.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:06 AM
nobody can complain that the Reds lack experience among its bullpen lefties.they are loaded with an inability to miss bats, and when you are a reliever if you are not missing bats you are skating on the edge.

BRM
03-28-2008, 10:06 AM
My big concern, as per the Enquirer article today, is whether Stanton and Mercker, at this stage, can pitch multiple innings and help bridge the gap to the back-end bullpen guys.

I shudder at the thought of Stanton pitching multiple innings.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:06 AM
Keeping Stanton over Bray is a symbol of roster mismanagementand Mercker, I would say this a real good chance thay he will be even worse than Stanton.

westofyou
03-28-2008, 10:07 AM
Keeping Stanton over Bray is a symbol of roster mismanagement, and Castro fits in the same category as roster mismanagement.

No keeping Stanton over Bray is attempt to not spend 4 million bucks in 5 minutes.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:10 AM
BTW, PECOTA sees Mercker with a 5.12 ERA and a 1.51 WHIP, Stanton with a 4.63 and 1.46, Bray 3.99 and 1.32.

This is only and stinky lefties part deux - the 2008 version.

BRM
03-28-2008, 10:12 AM
Mercker looks to be solid.

RedsManRick
03-28-2008, 10:12 AM
No keeping Stanton over Bray is attempt to not spend 4 million bucks in 5 minutes.

Because you don't have to pay Stanton if he's not on the roster? Short of a trade in which the other team picks up the tab, the Reds are paying Stanton this year regardless of how many innings he pitches. Might as well limit the damage.

The Reds very well might have better lefties in the upper minors than they do in the majors.

westofyou
03-28-2008, 10:12 AM
BTW, PECOTA sees Mercker with a 5.12 ERA and a 1.51 WHIP, Stanton with a 4.63 and 1.46.

This is only and stinky lefties part deux - the 2008 version.

PECOTA has small comps for Merker eh?

How about Troy Percivel for the good comp

He took a year off.... bad comp..... Jose Rijo 2001

princeton
03-28-2008, 10:12 AM
no biggie. Reds will need to use its reserves. It'd be nice if Bray were to be healthy when called upon.

redsrule2500
03-28-2008, 10:13 AM
So Bray gets sent down and Redszone, as usual, turns it into an attack on Castro. Makes sense I guess.


hahahahaha so true, I noticed this as well. Castro is to blame for everything!

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:13 AM
just so you know it isn't solely a Red problem


Manager Ron Gardenhire said Thursday that he hasn't decided whether Jason Kubel or Craig Monroe will be the Twins' Opening Day designated hitter.
And so it begins. Kubel posted a 785 OPS last season, batting .303/.379/.511 in the second half. Meanwhile, Monroe hit .219 with a 638 OPS. Any at-bat that Kubel loses to Monroe against a right-handed pitcher is a mistake and the Twins face righty Jered Weaver on Opening Day. Gardenhire showed last season that he was unwilling to simply stick Kubel in the lineup every day and now that he has one of his beloved mediocre veterans as an alternative it'll be even easier for him to bench one of the team's best hitters.

Falls City Beer
03-28-2008, 10:16 AM
If you're not insulting Castro, you're not trying hard enough.

Roy Tucker
03-28-2008, 10:20 AM
It seems like its SOP in baseball that when presented with keeping a faded vet or a younger uncertain guy, they send the young guy down and hope the older guy has something left in the tank. That way, if the vet's tank is on E, they can always call up the young guy.

The problem is, they usually let the vet lose them a few games before making a move.

Stanton has all the guile and craftiness in the world. But I recall that last year, his stuff was getting to be just about non-existent. At 40+, getting enough stuff back to get MLB hitters out is suspect.

MikeS21
03-28-2008, 10:21 AM
Bray didn't even face 30 batters this spring after coming off of an injury plagued '07 with lingering issues coming in...

This has less to do with money and more to do with 7 innings in ST not meaning anything. A lot of people have apparently used permanent marker for Bray but his 7 innings need some context IMHO.

He'll be up soon enough if he's ready and they need him.
jojo hit upon the real reason here. Another thing to remember is that by the time Bray got into most of these games to get in his seven innings, minor leaguers and roster fodder were beginning to replace front line players.

This move simply buys some time for Bray to get ready and for other teams to decide they need left-handed bullpen help.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:23 AM
It seems like its SOP in baseball that when presented with keeping a faded vet or a younger uncertain guy, they send the young guy down and hope the older guy has something left in the tank. That way, if the vet's tank is on E, they can always call up the young guy.

The problem is, they usually let the vet lose them a few games before making a move.

Stanton has all the guile and craftiness in the world. But I recall that last year, his stuff was getting to be just about non-existent. At 40+, getting enough stuff back to get MLB hitters out is suspect.this is just the 2008 version of Cormier and Stanton with Mercker standing in for Cormier.

Falls City Beer
03-28-2008, 10:23 AM
Stanton has all the guile and craftiness in the world. But I recall that last year, his stuff was getting to be just about non-existent. At 40+, getting enough stuff back to get MLB hitters out is suspect.

At 40+ without the benefits of the juice, it's going to be apocalyptic.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:25 AM
Another thing to remember is that by the time Bray got into most of these games to get in his seven innings, minor leaguers and roster fodder were beginning to replace front line players.Same goes for Stanton and Mercker ... and yet they still failed to miss bats.

Nobody is going to be taking them off the Reds hands. WKs inability find quality relievers could soon be legendary.

puca
03-28-2008, 10:26 AM
Fogg will do more damage than Stanton and Castro combined. Not that the Reds really have an alternative at least until Belisle is healthy.

OnBaseMachine
03-28-2008, 10:29 AM
What a dumb, dumb organization this can be at times. Wow. This bullpen had a chance to be decent this year, unfotunately Wayne and Dusty went with the good old boys. What a shame.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:30 AM
Fogg will do more damage than Stanton and Castro combined. Not that the Reds really have an alternative at least until Belisle is healthy.there is a question as to wether Belisle is really a better option, although his injuy makes it moot. However, I don't think there is any doubt that Bray is a better pitcher than Stanton and Mercker.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:31 AM
This bullpen had a chance to be decent this year, not sure that I agree. The bullpen was likely to be marginally better than last year but I am not sure decent is the proper word. Just to be decent a lot of things were going to have to fall the Reds way.

NJReds
03-28-2008, 10:32 AM
Money > winning

Kc61
03-28-2008, 10:33 AM
Keeping Stanton over Bray is a symbol of roster mismanagement, and Castro fits in the same category as roster mismanagement.

Please explain how it is roster mismanagement to have Castro on the team.

In the explanation, you might keep in mind that he is a third string shortstop. Gonzalez, the starter, is out. Also please keep in mind that Keppinger is the starting shortstop. So Castro is not a starter.

Since the Reds have s five-man bench, once Gonzalez returns, since Keppinger is likely to remain, Castro will likely depart.

I also checked the various websites and don't see that Jeter, or Tulowitzki, or Furcal, or even Stephen Drew is available to be the Reds third string shortstop.

So I wonder why Castro in that spot is roster mismanagement.

And I wonder, since he is taking Gonzo's roster spot and Gonzo will be back soon, why it makes such a difference.

BRM
03-28-2008, 10:33 AM
Given Dusty's recent comments, I doubt he had much to do with this decision.

OnBaseMachine
03-28-2008, 10:34 AM
not sure that I agree. The bullpen was likely to be marginally better than last year but I am not sure decent is the proper word. Just to be decent a lot of things were going to have to fall the Reds way.

I thought it had a chance to be decent if the best seven relievers were taken north:

Cordero, Burton, Bray, Weathers, Roenicke, Coffey, and then Affeldt as the 7th guy.

Kent Mercker and Mike Stanton over Bray. What a joke. No wonder people complain when the Reds say they are serious about winning. If they were, Stanton and Mercker wouldn't be on this team.

Kc61
03-28-2008, 10:38 AM
I thought it had a chance to be decent if the best seven relievers were taken north:

Cordero, Burton, Bray, Weathers, Roenicke, Coffey, and then Affeldt as the 7th guy.

Kent Mercker and Mike Stanton over Bray. What a joke. No wonder people complain when the Reds say they are serious about winning. If they were, Stanton and Mercker wouldn't be on this team.

Let's see what happens. The Reds have a lot of good young bullpen arms in the high minors. Some will show up soon, I'd guess.

It might be that with Cueto and Volquez, Reds wanted more of a veteran pen to start out.

Bray wasn't released or anything. Let's see how things go. It's a long season.

westofyou
03-28-2008, 10:41 AM
Remember the Beane method, the roster that you're managing is the 40 man and the roster that you take north is not the only roster you'll have all year.

Check back in 2-3 weeks and there will more movement at the bottom as all the MLB rosters experience the same thing. Especially if the Reds implode as all indicate will be the case. If they don't perhaps they'll be able to move some of these guys to other stupid organizations, at this point they'll have to pay all the departing fellows salary. I'm sure they're gambling that they can rectify part of that before it really becomes a factor.

But I don't see them holding this line all spring or all season.

OnBaseMachine
03-28-2008, 10:42 AM
Btw Kent Mercker has more walks than strikeouts this spring, however, he is over 40 years old so there's nothing to worry about, he's got great veteran presence.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 10:43 AM
Let's see how things go. simply a repeat of Stanton/Cormier from 2007.


Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

Falls City Beer
03-28-2008, 10:45 AM
Fogg will do more damage than Stanton and Castro combined. Not that the Reds really have an alternative at least until Belisle is healthy.

That depends: if kept on the roster all year, you're right, Fogg will likely hurt more. But if they can squeeze a good month or two out of him before someone else is ready to take his spot in the rotation, then he could actually be a genuine benefit. The same simply cannot be said of either Stanton or Castro: they have nothing to offer in the short or long term.

TRF
03-28-2008, 10:46 AM
Please explain how it is roster mismanagement to have Castro on the team.

In the explanation, you might keep in mind that he is a third string shortstop. Gonzalez, the starter, is out. Also please keep in mind that Keppinger is the starting shortstop. So Castro is not a starter.

Since the Reds have s five-man bench, once Gonzalez returns, since Keppinger is likely to remain, Castro will likely depart.

I also checked the various websites and don't see that Jeter, or Tulowitzki, or Furcal, or even Stephen Drew is available to be the Reds third string shortstop.

So I wonder why Castro in that spot is roster mismanagement.

And I wonder, since he is taking Gonzo's roster spot and Gonzo will be back soon, why it makes such a difference.

Because a bench player needs to have at least one of these two skills:

Defensive specialist
Offensive specialist

Castro can't hit. We all know that. He no longer is a great fielder either. He's got very limited range, and a suspect arm coming off TJ surgery.

So, yeah, having him on the 25 man roster is mismanagement. If they want him around to mentor EE, BP and Kepp, to teach them fundamentals of footwork and positioning, then make him a coach already. Just don't put him on the field with the game on the line. And by on the line I mean still being played.

lollipopcurve
03-28-2008, 10:46 AM
I'm sure they're gambling that they can rectify part of that before it really becomes a factor.

Exactly. Buying time. The question, of course, is how much? and how much is too much?

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 10:53 AM
It feels like it was only yesterday when I was told that I was overreacting on the Mercker signing. I could have sworn that he was only getting a ST invite as a favor for him to retire on his own terms.

Oh well...I'm sure I'll be overreacting next winter as well.

OnBaseMachine
03-28-2008, 10:53 AM
Of the nine players remaining in camp, Bray was the best. And he's the one that gets cut. Go figure.

Cyclone792
03-28-2008, 11:05 AM
No keeping Stanton over Bray is attempt to not spend 4 million bucks in 5 minutes.

The Reds are paying Stanton regardless. They keep him for the season, he gets paid. They cut him now, he gets paid. They cut him in June, he gets paid.

He's already cleared waivers, which tells me that nobody wants him ... unless the Reds send a good deal of cash with him, in which case they're still spending money.

I don't know, maybe somebody is hoping Stanton will put together a nice 15 innings over the first six weeks so somebody is suddenly interested in him. I guess it could happen, but I'm not counting on it.


Please explain how it is roster mismanagement to have Castro on the team.

In the explanation, you might keep in mind that he is a third string shortstop. Gonzalez, the starter, is out. Also please keep in mind that Keppinger is the starting shortstop. So Castro is not a starter.

Since the Reds have s five-man bench, once Gonzalez returns, since Keppinger is likely to remain, Castro will likely depart.

I also checked the various websites and don't see that Jeter, or Tulowitzki, or Furcal, or even Stephen Drew is available to be the Reds third string shortstop.

So I wonder why Castro in that spot is roster mismanagement.

And I wonder, since he is taking Gonzo's roster spot and Gonzo will be back soon, why it makes such a difference.

Castro is roster mismanagement because he's one of the 20 worst hitters in the history of the game, and now as he's aged he can't even field his position adequately anymore. Anytime you have a player that bad on your roster, it's roster mismanagement. How bad does a player have to be for people to realize they're worse than worthless?

Hell, last year there were pitchers who provided more offensive value than Castro.

westofyou
03-28-2008, 11:07 AM
He's already cleared waivers, which tells me that nobody wants him ... unless the Reds send a good deal of cash with him, in which case they're still spending money.

Shave 2 million off the 4 million you'd spend on dumping him now and that's 2 million more you have for the draft, or other things.

As a businessman I see why they do it.

As a strat player I don't get it at all.

Cyclone792
03-28-2008, 11:14 AM
Shave 2 million off the 4 million you'd spend on dumping him now and that's 2 million more you have for the draft, or other things.

As a businessman I see why they do it.

As a strat player I don't get it at all.

Oh I'm with you there.

Problem is the team has to ask itself if it's worth saving $1-2 million when there's high risk that he blows an early season game and promptly gets booed off the field.

traderumor
03-28-2008, 11:18 AM
Shave 2 million off the 4 million you'd spend on dumping him now and that's 2 million more you have for the draft, or other things.

As a businessman I see why they do it.

As a strat player I don't get it at all.

On this same subject about "sunk costs" that folks seem to want to oversimplify, mostly because they view it as Monopoly money while the owners have real checking accounts, I would hope ballclubs have wiggle room in their budgets to write off bad contracts. The way many teams act, I don't think all do. Hopefully the Reds realize that in a no-cut contract world, this is a cost of doing business. Their DFAing during the Cast/Krivsky regime tells me they do.

puca
03-28-2008, 11:22 AM
That depends: if kept on the roster all year, you're right, Fogg will likely hurt more. But if they can squeeze a good month or two out of him before someone else is ready to take his spot in the rotation, then he could actually be a genuine benefit. The same simply cannot be said of either Stanton or Castro: they have nothing to offer in the short or long term.

I have doubts that Fogg has a good month or two in him, but miracles do happen. If Fogg pitches the way I suspect he will - outside of humidor Coors and the large ballpark NL West and with a poor defense behind him - the Reds will need to go the bullpen often and early during his starts That will be hard while at the same time protecting Cueto and not overusing Volquez, Arroyo and Harang.

At his best Fogg only averages a little over 5 innings per start. But like I said, the Reds really have no other option at this point, however he is a really bad fit for what the Reds need from their '4th' starter.

Falls City Beer
03-28-2008, 11:26 AM
I have doubts that Fogg has a good month or two in him, but miracles do happen. If Fogg pitches the way I suspect he will - outside of humidor Coors and the large ballpark NL West and with a poor defense behind him - the Reds will need to go the bullpen often and early during his starts That will be hard while at the same time protecting Cueto and not overusing Volquez, Arroyo and Harang.

At his best Fogg only averages a little over 5 innings per start. But like I said, the Reds really have no other option at this point. But he is a really bad fit for what the Reds need from their '4th' starter.

I think sea level and early season temperatures will countervail the "humidor" effect, but you're right, the Reds' poor defense is a big step down from the Rockies'.

Still, I don't think we're in the realm of "miracles" just yet. I think a healthy pitcher like Fogg can cobble together 6-7 good starts. It happens pretty much all the time.

Kc61
03-28-2008, 11:30 AM
Castro is roster mismanagement because he's one of the 20 worst hitters in the history of the game, and now as he's aged he can't even field his position adequately anymore. Anytime you have a player that bad on your roster, it's roster mismanagement. How bad does a player have to be for people to realize they're worse than worthless?

Hell, last year there were pitchers who provided more offensive value than Castro.

In the ninth inning, when a ground ball is hit, and Juan Castro gets his hands on it, there will be an out. For a third string shortstop, playing while the starter is injured, that's a pretty good thing to have.

He isn't there for offense, although once in awhile he gets a big hit. And, yes, he is older now and some of his skills have declined.

But RedsZone is certainly more interesting when people back off of Juan Castro, the third string shortstop, and spend more time focusing on the major issues of the team. Over the years, there must be 10,000 posts saying that Castro is no good.

puca
03-28-2008, 11:30 AM
Please explain how it is roster mismanagement to have Castro on the team.

In the explanation, you might keep in mind that he is a third string shortstop. Gonzalez, the starter, is out. Also please keep in mind that Keppinger is the starting shortstop. So Castro is not a starter.

Since the Reds have s five-man bench, once Gonzalez returns, since Keppinger is likely to remain, Castro will likely depart.

I also checked the various websites and don't see that Jeter, or Tulowitzki, or Furcal, or even Stephen Drew is available to be the Reds third string shortstop.

So I wonder why Castro in that spot is roster mismanagement.

And I wonder, since he is taking Gonzo's roster spot and Gonzo will be back soon, why it makes such a difference.

It is hard to find a worse player than Castro. The fact that he is the Reds 'best option' for backup shortstop until Gonzalez gets healthy is a shame. The fact that the Reds didn't bring in someone better to cover for a month or two is the mismanagement.

If 2/5ths of the bench are worse hitters than an average pitcher then you have problems. I don't care if it is March or September.

blumj
03-28-2008, 11:30 AM
On this same subject about "sunk costs" that folks seem to want to oversimplify, mostly because they view it as Monopoly money while the owners have real checking accounts, I would hope ballclubs have wiggle room in their budgets to write off bad contracts. The way many teams act, I don't think all do. Hopefully the Reds realize that in a no-cut contract world, this is a cost of doing business. Their DFAing during the Cast/Krivsky regime tells me they do.
Teams who give multi-year, multi-million dollar contracts to 40 year old relief pitchers seem to set the tone for treating it like monopoly money.

Cyclone792
03-28-2008, 11:33 AM
In the ninth inning, when a ground ball is hit, and Juan Castro gets his hands on it, there will be an out. For a third string shortstop, playing while the starter is injured, that's a pretty good thing to have.

He isn't there for offense, although once in awhile he gets a big hit. And, yes, he is older now and some of his skills have declined.

But RedsZone is certainly more interesting when people back off of Juan Castro, the third string shortstop, and spend more time focusing on the major issues of the team.

That ball better be hit squarely at Castro otherwise it will be rolling into the outfield.

I'll ask the same question again: How seriously awful does a player have to be before people realize he's worse than worthless?

flyer85
03-28-2008, 11:33 AM
Stanton is a sunk cost. Now the gamble begins on whether he will pitch well enough to draw interest versus getting shelled and blowing a few wins before they decide to cut bait.

westofyou
03-28-2008, 11:33 AM
The fact that the Reds didn't bring in someone better to cover for a month or two is the mismanagement.

That's a wild card, look at the position, it's perhaps the hardest one on the field to fit and folks that have to leave their organization for a SS have perhaps the shallowest pool of players to pick from in the game.

Barry left in 2004... here's what's sidled up there since.


CINCINNATI REDS
CAREER
2005-2007
SS

GAMES G
1 Felipe Lopez 224
2 Alex Gonzalez 103
3 Rich Aurilia 56
4 Jeff Keppinger 47
T5 Royce Clayton 43
T5 Juan Castro 43
7 Pedro Lopez 12
8 Ray Olmedo 9
9 Brandon Phillips 4
T10 William Bergolla 1
T10 Enrique Cruz 1

flyer85
03-28-2008, 11:34 AM
I'll ask the same question again: How seriously awful does a player have to be before people realize he's worse than worthless?I guess the answer must be "worse than Juan". :D

puca
03-28-2008, 11:36 AM
I think sea level and early season temperatures will countervail the "humidor" effect, but you're right, the Reds' poor defense is a big step down from the Rockies'.

Still, I don't think we're in the realm of "miracles" just yet. I think a healthy pitcher like Fogg can cobble together 6-7 good starts. It happens pretty much all the time.

Fogg has been at his best in March-May, so maybe you are right. The thought of him pitching for the Reds still makes me ill.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 11:40 AM
I think the real reason people are terrified by Juan is because Dusty might actually get the urge to play his crusty veteran presence.

Kc61
03-28-2008, 11:44 AM
That ball better be hit squarely at Castro otherwise it will be rolling into the outfield.

I'll ask the same question again: How seriously awful does a player have to be before people realize he's worse than worthless?

When you watch Castro play next time, I think you'll see that this is an exaggeration. He is very sure handed, and still moves around fairly ok. Keppinger and Castro both are low-error players who can help the team pin down wins.

Ultimately, a younger version, like Janish, would be an improvement. Janish needs more time at AAA to improve his bat. But I've seen the Reds boot too many games away in recent years to agree that players like Castro are worthless.

The real flaw in the Reds' bench is not Castro, as a fill in for an injured player. It is the absence of a right handed power bat to be used in games against lefties. That's a subject worthy of some RedsZone posts, more so than the repeated venting about Juan Castro.

Guacarock
03-28-2008, 11:45 AM
The good news: We'll be seeing Bray soon enough.

The bad news: Because among Mercker, Stanton and Affeldt, at least one, possibly two and maybe all three are guaranteed to implode.

Whether this is a case of roster mismanagement, bean counting, or veteran man-love, it is nevertheless depressing to see and emblematic of why the team hasn't had a winning record for seven straight seasons.

With as poorly as the bullpen's performed under Krivsky's watch, you think he would adopt a different approach by now.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 11:49 AM
With as poorly as the bullpen's performed under Krivsky's watch, you think he would adopt a different approach by now.WK's been the victim of bad luck ... it's bound to turn soon.

BRM
03-28-2008, 11:53 AM
WK's been the victim of bad luck ... it's bound to turn soon.

As long as it doesn't turn from bad to worse.

Cyclone792
03-28-2008, 11:57 AM
When you watch Castro play next time, I think you'll see that this is an exaggeration. He is very sure handed, and still moves around fairly ok.

I've seen Castro play plenty, too many times actually. The guy simply lacks range now and shouldn't be a viable option even defensively to play shortstop anymore. Sit behind the plate and watch his range both ways; it isn't good. Sure he's sure-handed, but sure hands don't make the legs move any quicker.

princeton
03-28-2008, 11:57 AM
With as poorly as the bullpen's performed under Krivsky's watch, you think he would adopt a different approach by now.

like... Cordero?

jojo
03-28-2008, 12:04 PM
BTW, was the Capellan ordeal about the weirdest sideshow ever or what?

I'm still scratching my head over what the Reds were thinking....

Big Klu
03-28-2008, 12:05 PM
Players still in camp:

Pitchers (14)
25 David Weathers
31 Matt Belisle
33 Josh Fogg
36 Edinson Volquez
39 Aaron Harang
41 Jeremy Affeldt
48 Francisco Cordero
50 Kent Mercker
51 Jared Burton
52 Jim Brower
56 Todd Coffey
61 Bronson Arroyo
77 Johnny Cueto
84 Mike Lincoln

Catchers (3)
9 Paul Bako
17 Javier Valentin
26 David Ross

Infielders (9)
2 Alex Gonzalez
4 Brandon Phillips
7 Juan Castro
15 Jerry Hairston, Jr.
19 Joey Votto
21 Scott Hatteberg
27 Jeff Keppinger
28 Edwin Encarnacion
54 Jolbert Cabrera

Outfielders (5)
3 Ken Griffey, Jr.
6 Ryan Freel
23 Corey Patterson
30 Norris Hopper
44 Adam Dunn

Big Klu
03-28-2008, 12:07 PM
BTW, was the Capellan ordeal about the weirdest sideshow ever or what?

I'm still scratching my head over what the Reds were thinking....

Did the guy ever show up to camp, let alone pitch?

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by jojo View Post
BTW, was the Capellan ordeal about the weirdest sideshow ever or what?

I'm still scratching my head over what the Reds were thinking....

Big Klu responded:

Did the guy ever show up to camp, let alone pitch?

He was in camp, appeared in at least one minor league game that I saw mentioned here.

This pick up was basically taking a no-cost flyer. We got back what we paid the Giants, we took a chance that a deal could be worked out with the Bosox or that they'd refuse to take him back (probably wasn't likely), but really had nothing to lose taking a look. I think that seems simple enough to figure out. It didn't work out, time to move on.

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 12:13 PM
Frankly, I'm anxious for real games to get started, all this Sturm und Drang over every minor move with the club is just crazy. I'm guessing there's a run on blood pressure meds for folks here on RZ.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 12:16 PM
I'm still scratching my head over what the Reds were thinking....maybe they weren't. ;)

flyer85
03-28-2008, 12:17 PM
I'm guessing there's a run on blood pressure meds for folks here on RZ.not for me. I am resigned to the fact this club as it will be constructed is not even a 500 team much less a playoff contender.

jojo
03-28-2008, 12:17 PM
maybe they weren't. ;)

I'm thinking either ya want him or ya don't. :dunno:

paulrichjr
03-28-2008, 12:19 PM
I remember as a kid thinking "why do the Reds have Mike Lum on their roster?"

One time my Great Uncle and Father were discussing how ballplayers were overpayed (1977 I think - can you imagine the difference in pay then and now) and I interjected (as an 8 year old) that Mike Lum shouldn't get paid anything because he was so bad. I had a very passionate arguement about his lack of ability while my Father and Great Uncle listened. It was the first time I remember talking baseball and also the first time I remember adults listening to my opinion. Now after all these years I think back that Mike Lum was a reserve and would never be a great player because - well - he was a reserve. The passion that people have about Juan Castro reminds me of that 8 year old kid. Frankly I am tired of all of the talk about Castro every year. Yes he is bad...we all know that... now let's talk about stuff that really matters because every team in baseball has a Castro. It is an unspoken rule of GMs that all teams must have a Mike Lum or in our case a Juan Castro. They do it so that fans will have something to talk about...

TRF
03-28-2008, 12:30 PM
Here is the problem with Castro as I see it. He has a rep. In fact, he has an excellent reputation as a fielder, one that is backed by writers and announcers both in Cincinnati and out.

And the rep is far greater than the player ever was. It's not like a KGJ rep, one that at one time actually matched his skills. No, Castro's rep is based solely on being sure handed, but it extended itself to making him a great fielder with great range. Castro was never that. And right now he's an over 30 no range SS with a suspect arm and one the WORST BATS in THE HISTORY OF THE GAME.

Is there any reason whatsoever to have him on the roster over Janish at this point? Janish would be a defensive UPGRADE over Kepp or even Gonzales in late innings.

paulrichjr
03-28-2008, 12:35 PM
Here is the problem with Castro as I see it. He has a rep. In fact, he has an excellent reputation as a fielder, one that is backed by writers and announcers both in Cincinnati and out.

And the rep is far greater than the player ever was. It's not like a KGJ rep, one that at one time actually matched his skills. No, Castro's rep is based solely on being sure handed, but it extended itself to making him a great fielder with great range. Castro was never that. And right now he's an over 30 no range SS with a suspect arm and one the WORST BATS in THE HISTORY OF THE GAME.

Is there any reason whatsoever to have him on the roster over Janish at this point? Janish would be a defensive UPGRADE over Kepp or even Gonzales in late innings.


Yes there is. Janish isn't ready for the bigs. You will hurt his development while helping the team maybe by 1 run the whole year.

Spring~Fields
03-28-2008, 12:40 PM
I think the real reason people are terrified by Juan is because Dusty might actually get the urge to play his crusty veteran presence.

Play Hairston and Bako ? :eek: Limit the playing time of Votto ?

I actually do think that Baker will do that.

OnBaseMachine
03-28-2008, 12:46 PM
I remain puzzled by this move. The Reds don't have a lefty in the pen who is tough on lefties. Mercker is washed up so I don't expect much out of him and lefties hit Affeldt better than righties last season. Puzzling move by Krivsky sending Bray down.

blumj
03-28-2008, 12:55 PM
I'm thinking either ya want him or ya don't. :dunno:
I'd guess they didn't realize just how far he is from being able to contribute until they got a closer look. But Soxprospects.com does not seem at all surprised to get him back.

Nugget
03-28-2008, 01:12 PM
I remain puzzled by this move. The Reds don't have a lefty in the pen who is tough on lefties. Mercker is washed up so I don't expect much out of him and lefties hit Affeldt better than righties last season. Puzzling move by Krivsky sending Bray down.

Reading Dusty from the other post - Bray just wasn't ready to be on the 25 man - in the major leagues we have more games - there are durability and fitness issues. Maybe even though there was nothing big Bray still pulled up a little sore after each outing. Down in AAA he can get work in when he can, get thing together and then come help the REDS when required.

The REDS have never said that 2/3 of Mercker, Stanton and Bray have to make the 25 man. Whether or not the REDS carry a LOOGY is not settled until Monday.

TRF
03-28-2008, 01:13 PM
Yes there is. Janish isn't ready for the bigs. You will hurt his development while helping the team maybe by 1 run the whole year.

Janish is likely never going to hit. He might be Castro in that regard. But his glove is MLB ready right now according to all reports. He is going to be in AAA this year, but he had 200 AB's there last year, and it was a huge drop from his decent OBP numbers at AA .358. Maybe he could use a full year at AAA, maybe if he OB's over .350 there he's AGon's replacement.

So I see your point, but I see no point whatsoever in carrying Castro for a single day on the 25 man roster.

blumj
03-28-2008, 01:16 PM
Whether or not the REDS carry a LOOGY is not settled until Monday.
If it was up to me, you could have ours. I hate wasting a roster spot on a loogy.

redsrule2500
03-28-2008, 01:37 PM
I don't get this 3 catcher obsession!!!

Just have Javy as backup and Freel as your double backup!

I'm sure he could play there fine.

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 01:51 PM
I don't get this 3 catcher obsession!!!

Just have Javy as backup and Freel as your double backup!

I'm sure he could play there fine.

You'd run Hatteberg out there before Freel.

Patrick Bateman
03-28-2008, 02:06 PM
It feels like it was only yesterday when I was told that I was overreacting on the Mercker signing. I could have sworn that he was only getting a ST invite as a favor for him to retire on his own terms.

Oh well...I'm sure I'll be overreacting next winter as well.

No, there's a difference.

Every team signs the Kent Merker's of the world to have around as depth. That's okay.

It's when you make the decision to keep the Kent Merker's over superior players. If Merker wasn't here, then it would be some other run of the mill reliever taking that spot.

Again, every team has to add these types of players to the organziation. The Reds continuously fail at the next step of talent evaluation. And I think that's the point where it's time to throw your keyboard at a wall.

TRF
03-28-2008, 02:49 PM
Bray, Viola AND Pelland at AAA? That's some LH relief talent there.

OnBaseMachine
03-28-2008, 02:59 PM
Bray, Viola AND Pelland at AAA? That's some LH relief talent there.

Speaking of Viola, he just threw a scoreless inning for the Reds. After allowing a leadoff double to Crawford, he bounced back to strikeout Carlos Pena, got BJ Upton to groundout, and Hinske to fly out to Dunn. I suspect we'll see Viola sometime during the summer in Cincy.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 03:02 PM
No, there's a difference.

Every team signs the Kent Merker's of the world to have around as depth. That's okay.

It's when you make the decision to keep the Kent Merker's over superior players. If Merker wasn't here, then it would be some other run of the mill reliever taking that spot.

Again, every team has to add these types of players to the organziation. The Reds continuously fail at the next step of talent evaluation. And I think that's the point where it's time to throw your keyboard at a wall.

Why would there have to be another run of the mill reliever taking a spot? Why can't Bray, the only last remaining hope for the Washington debacle? Why couldn't there be another signing for someone better than awful? Why couldn't Salmon have been given an opportunity? What the hell happened to McBeth? Does this bullpen have any margin of error for when either Weathers either starts to show his age or Burton continues to show why he was unprotected in the Rule V?

Benihana
03-28-2008, 03:09 PM
Why would there have to be another run of the mill reliever taking a spot? Why can't Bray, the only last remaining hope for the Washington debacle? Why couldn't there be another signing for someone better than awful? Why couldn't Salmon have been given an opportunity? What the hell happened to McBeth? Does this bullpen have any margin of error for when either Weathers either starts to show his age or Burton continues to show why he was unprotected in the Rule V?

Once again, could you be any more negative? Bray should be on the major league roster IMO but COME ON, your act is growing VERY tired.

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 03:10 PM
Why would there have to be another run of the mill reliever taking a spot? Why can't Bray, the only last remaining hope for the Washington debacle? Why couldn't there be another signing for someone better than awful? Why couldn't Salmon have been given an opportunity? What the hell happened to McBeth? Does this bullpen have any margin of error for when either Weathers either starts to show his age or Burton continues to show why he was unprotected in the Rule V?

Well, here's the problem. Things will always look bleak when you look at this team always expecting the sky will fall. Far too often, the assumption around Redszone is that the end of the roster players will always fail. Sometimes that doesn't happen.

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 03:14 PM
Bray should be on the major league roster IMO but COME ON, your act is growing VERY tired.

I was surprised at the move too, but then I got to thinking about Baker talking about Bray's propensity for coming up lame. I think someone else suggested during this discussion that in some ways it makes sense to have Bray down at Louisville to get up to speed; show he's healthy and then be ready to be up here for good. Of course, if he breaks down, it will be cheaper having him on Louisville's DL then our's.

There's no question we've got some decent depth at AAA this year. They'll be needed some time or another during the year.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 03:26 PM
Once again, could you be any more negative? Bray should be on the major league roster IMO but COME ON, your act is growing VERY tired.

I was negative when they gave Mercker the "pity invite". I was blowing it out of proportion. There was no way he'd make the team. It was just so that he could go out on his own terms.

Now that my fears are coming closer to reality, my act is growing tired? Give me a break. The tired one is the Statue of Liberty act from Wayne.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses..."

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 03:28 PM
Well, here's the problem. Things will always look bleak when you look at this team always expecting the sky will fall. Far too often, the assumption around Redszone is that the end of the roster players will always fail. Sometimes that doesn't happen.

Mercker will fail.

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 03:45 PM
Mercker will fail.

Well when comes to that, we're all going to die. And all things come to an end.

BTW, the sun's shining right now, but I'll try to ignore that. :beerme:

nate
03-28-2008, 03:52 PM
I remember as a kid thinking "why do the Reds have Mike Lum on their roster?"

One time my Great Uncle and Father were discussing how ballplayers were overpayed (1977 I think - can you imagine the difference in pay then and now) and I interjected (as an 8 year old) that Mike Lum shouldn't get paid anything because he was so bad. I had a very passionate arguement about his lack of ability while my Father and Great Uncle listened. It was the first time I remember talking baseball and also the first time I remember adults listening to my opinion. Now after all these years I think back that Mike Lum was a reserve and would never be a great player because - well - he was a reserve. The passion that people have about Juan Castro reminds me of that 8 year old kid. Frankly I am tired of all of the talk about Castro every year. Yes he is bad...we all know that... now let's talk about stuff that really matters because every team in baseball has a Castro. It is an unspoken rule of GMs that all teams must have a Mike Lum or in our case a Juan Castro. They do it so that fans will have something to talk about...

Heh!

Unassisted
03-28-2008, 03:58 PM
The mobile alert I just got from Reds.com neglected to mention that it was Andy Phillips and not Brandon who had been removed from the roster. Now that I've learned that it is a Phillips I didn't remember who is no longer on the roster, I can return my jaw to its normal position. :D

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 04:33 PM
Well when comes to that, we're all going to die. And all things come to an end.

BTW, the sun's shining right now, but I'll try to ignore that. :beerme:

Not where I live. :)

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 04:35 PM
Not where I live. :)

Not that many of us are surprised there, guy. Try this - :redszone:

lollipopcurve
03-28-2008, 04:37 PM
Burton continues to show why he was unprotected in the Rule V?

what was Burton "continuing to do" in the entire second half last year? prepping to show his true abilities in a few innings of spring training after a long cold winter?

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 04:51 PM
what was Burton "continuing to do" in the entire second half last year? prepping to show his true abilities in a few innings of spring training after a long cold winter?

Finding a gem in the Rule V draft is more the exception than the rule. 2 months of strong pitching isn't going to make me believe that he is going to be a key part of the bullpen this year. He's going to need to do more than that for me to believe that he will be a strong contributor to the pen for now and the future.

Keith Law referred to Burton as a potential 11-12th pitcher on the Reds this offseason and you would have thought that someone referred to Harang as waiver wire fodder. Most of this board was up in arms. Funny thing is he might be right. He's at least closer to correct than he was when he made the statement.

I do realize that it is only ST...but then again, most of the time you get what you pay for.

Nugget
03-28-2008, 05:01 PM
If you going to go by Burton's mediocre ST what about Votto and Encarnacion's. Are they going to show why they should be dealt.

The REDS on the whole have made plus calls when it came to making cuts, not in acquiring the talent, but making the cuts. The board was up in arms over having someone at 2nd base and not giving Bergolla a chance. Bergolla has not found a place on any major league team. I think there was an argument last year that Coutlangus should have gone north with the team - still isn't here.

lollipopcurve
03-28-2008, 05:04 PM
Finding a gem in the Rule V draft is more the exception than the rule.

If you watched him pitch in the latter half of the season last year, and you had any idea what you were looking at, you'd know he has the ability to be effective. All he has to do is stay around the plate -- he has the stuff.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 05:08 PM
If you going to go by Burton's mediocre ST what about Votto and Encarnacion's. Are they going to show why they should be dealt.

The REDS on the whole have made plus calls when it came to making cuts, not in acquiring the talent, but making the cuts. The board was up in arms over having someone at 2nd base and not giving Bergolla a chance. Bergolla has not found a place on any major league team. I think there was an argument last year that Coutlangus should have gone north with the team - still isn't here.

I give guys with pedigrees more rope than guys without.

8th round draft picks left unprotected in the Rule V draft who were in A ball at the age of 24 aren't exactly odds on favorites to become something of use.

He might end up being a good reliever. But I think his stock has dropped a few points since 2007, no? When Cordero was signed, he was being pimped as part of the 7th-9th inning lockdown team. Now? Not so much.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 05:10 PM
If you watched him pitch in the latter half of the season last year, and you had any idea what you were looking at, you'd know he has the ability to be effective. All he has to do is stay around the plate -- he has the stuff.

Uh huh. Forgot you were a scout.

We'll see what happens this year. Hopefully he puts me in my place. I really hope he does.

Patrick Bateman
03-28-2008, 05:11 PM
Why would there have to be another run of the mill reliever taking a spot? Why can't Bray, the only last remaining hope for the Washington debacle? Why couldn't there be another signing for someone better than awful? Why couldn't Salmon have been given an opportunity? What the hell happened to McBeth? Does this bullpen have any margin of error for when either Weathers either starts to show his age or Burton continues to show why he was unprotected in the Rule V?

Put it this way, if the Reds think that Merker is currently a better pitchers than Bray, than they probably like a lot more crappy pitchers than Bray. I don't think Merker is fooling anybody with his abilities... it obviously has something to do with the Reds not thinking Bray is ready (be it health, or current abilities) to pitch well in the majors.

I do agree with your premise though, outside of Cordero, the pen is an absolute mess... leaving decent pitchers off the roster, overvaluing middle relievers, etc.

I'm not trying to make excuses for this sorry lot, but moves like Merker happen in every organiztion for depth reasons. You gotta have at least replacement level talent waiting instead of calling up young players prematurely. The speration is whether the team is ready to 1) evaluate the talent correctly or 2) commit to the future. The Reds are doing neither. That sucks.

Nugget
03-28-2008, 05:16 PM
Another thing is as has been said before - the Pen is a crap shoot - Weathers will do well in the 8th, if Mercker can be at least a one batter half inning guy its better than a young guy who you cannot trot out day to day - Affeldt could well be good in relief. I don't think the Pen is as big a mess as others do. Would we like a young flame throwing Pen - who wouldn't.

lollipopcurve
03-28-2008, 05:26 PM
Uh huh. Forgot you were a scout.

It was plain to see.

And, as an added bonus, the numbers -- not always reliable in evaluating relievers -- bear it out.

Hard to understand the hate for Burton.

Patrick Bateman
03-28-2008, 05:28 PM
Another thing is as has been said before - the Pen is a crap shoot - Weathers will do well in the 8th, if Mercker can be at least a one batter half inning guy its better than a young guy who you cannot trot out day to day - Affeldt could well be good in relief. I don't think the Pen is as big a mess as others do. Would we like a young flame throwing Pen - who wouldn't.

It's not a crapshoot. If that were true, eventually the Reds would get it right. The only player really added was Cordero. Everyone else is basically the same. The pen of years past is moer than 1 pitcher away.

Weathers is due for steep decline any year now... an dhis peripherals are leaning that way big time. His career as an effective reliever could eb gone at a blink of an eye.

Merker is very old, coming off major injuries. Expecting him to be a quality reliever, when he wasn't the last time he pitched (before injury) is a giant stretch.

Affeldt has a carrer of being a bad pitcher. He pieced together 60 innings of being something better than crap. A repeat of last year makes him at best a middle guy.

The hope relies in guys that aren't even on the team yet. Bray is without much doubt the best lefty reliever we have. Not on the team. Roenicke is probably the highest upside arm that is near major league ready. Not on the team. The other interesting guy is Burton and he's had all of 30 innings or so as a quality reliever. Maybe guys liek Coffey (needs to rebound) or McBeth (AAA bound) can help, but again, neither player is there yet.

I tell you, there isn't much to be excited about here. For the pen to be anywhere close to decent you need 3-4 guys to do stuff directly opposite of reasonable expectations. Considering it's basically a repeat cast of last season's vets, and there is a complete lack of youth here, it really shouldn't be much of a surprise if the bullpen continues to be a major weakness.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 05:31 PM
It was plain to see.

And, as an added bonus, the numbers -- not always reliable in evaluating relievers -- bear it out.

Hard to understand the hate for Burton.

Not hate. But not as much love as some.

Especially after getting crushed by the Coffey v07 model, I'm more wary of young relievers who come out of nowhere.

lollipopcurve
03-28-2008, 05:39 PM
Especially after getting crushed by the Coffey v07 model, I'm more wary of young relievers who come out of nowhere.

There's some wisdom in that. But, if you had watched these guys closely you would have seen that Burton has far better options than Coffey -- a cutter and a mid-80s pitch that dives (I believe he calls it a changeup). Coffey has never established anything other than his fastball, so without locating perfectly it was bombs away. Hopefully his excellent spring is a sign that he's got something new he can rely on.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 05:44 PM
There's some wisdom in that. But, if you had watched these guys closely you would have seen that Burton has far better options than Coffey -- a cutter and a mid-80s pitch that dives (I believe he calls it a changeup). Coffey has never established anything other than his fastball, so without locating perfectly it was bombs away. Hopefully his excellent spring is a sign that he's got something new he can rely on.

Hope so. If those two pitch like Burton 2nd half 07 and Coffey 06, the bullpen will be looking pretty good.

paulrichjr
03-28-2008, 06:04 PM
It's not a crapshoot. If that were true, eventually the Reds would get it right. The only player really added was Cordero. Everyone else is basically the same. The pen of years past is moer than 1 pitcher away.

Weathers is due for steep decline any year now... an dhis peripherals are leaning that way big time. His career as an effective reliever could eb gone at a blink of an eye.

Merker is very old, coming off major injuries. Expecting him to be a quality reliever, when he wasn't the last time he pitched (before injury) is a giant stretch.

Affeldt has a carrer of being a bad pitcher. He pieced together 60 innings of being something better than crap. A repeat of last year makes him at best a middle guy.

The hope relies in guys that aren't even on the team yet. Bray is without much doubt the best lefty reliever we have. Not on the team. Roenicke is probably the highest upside arm that is near major league ready. Not on the team. The other interesting guy is Burton and he's had all of 30 innings or so as a quality reliever. Maybe guys liek Coffey (needs to rebound) or McBeth (AAA bound) can help, but again, neither player is there yet.

I tell you, there isn't much to be excited about here. For the pen to be anywhere close to decent you need 3-4 guys to do stuff directly opposite of reasonable expectations. Considering it's basically a repeat cast of last season's vets, and there is a complete lack of youth here, it really shouldn't be much of a surprise if the bullpen continues to be a major weakness.



And if All of these guys fail we have a ton of very talented guys in AAA. People are acting like this pen is the one we are going with from today until Oct 1st. It is not. You will see 2 or 3 guys get hurt or fail and then Bray, Roenike, Viola, etc can come up and save the day...

We have depth for the first time in years. True depth. Krivs has shown that if Mercker fails he will drop him quick. I personally think Merk might shock some with a decent year. The guy wasn't bad at all 3 years ago (I think it was)...A year off might have helped. If not he will be gone May 1st because he isn't going to cost much anyway.

Patrick Bateman
03-28-2008, 06:55 PM
And if All of these guys fail we have a ton of very talented guys in AAA. People are acting like this pen is the one we are going with from today until Oct 1st. It is not. You will see 2 or 3 guys get hurt or fail and then Bray, Roenike, Viola, etc can come up and save the day...

We have depth for the first time in years. True depth. Krivs has shown that if Mercker fails he will drop him quick. I personally think Merk might shock some with a decent year. The guy wasn't bad at all 3 years ago (I think it was)...A year off might have helped. If not he will be gone May 1st because he isn't going to cost much anyway.

I was only trying to refute the point that the current state of the bullpen could lead to success. I don't see that happening with the 7 guys being taken north. Why? Because more talented players like Bray and Roenicke are being left off the roster. I agree, that down the line this year, the bullpen could be good with the addition of younger/talented players. But it's not there yet. And I'd prefer that the Reds skip the step of watching the usual suspects get tossed around.

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 06:59 PM
I was only trying to refute the point that the current state of the bullpen could lead to success. I don't see that happening with the 7 guys being taken north. Why? Because more talented players like Bray and Roenicke are being left off the roster. I agree, that down the line this year, the bullpen could be good with the addition of younger/talented players. But it's not there yet. And I'd prefer that the Reds skip the step of watching the usual suspects get tossed around.

When has a baseball team not been a work in progress? No team, no matter how good, brings the same 24/25 guys through an entire season - not ever. Why should this one be such.

Why are folks surprised by Roenicke starting in Louisville. Has Wayne had anyone make the jump from AA to Cincy without going through AAA yet? And Dusty was talking all week about Bray getting injured all the time - this move comes out of those discussions. Whether it's getting him sturdier down there and pitching better, this club is making some good moves, all the wailing and gnashing of teeth notwithstanding.

Patrick Bateman
03-28-2008, 07:42 PM
When has a baseball team not been a work in progress? No team, no matter how good, brings the same 24/25 guys through an entire season - not ever. Why should this one be such.

This is not what I am arguing. Believe me, I'm not the type to expect the Reds to go from crap to playoff contender in a short span. I have been very patient with the Reds management.

I am talking about bringing the best 25 players north with the team. How Bill Bray gets cut instead of a guy like Merker is beyong my recognition. If Bray is still suffering effects from injury and this is only a 1-2 week deal, then fine, but he should be on this team because he is one of the best 7 relievers.... easily. I find that very frustrating, especially since he is a young talent that the Reds need to try to build with.

Obviously the Reds will need to make changes throughout the season... every team does. But I can tell you that on opening day, the Reds will have already failed in bringing the best 25 major league players to the field. Why should this be acceptable when there are glaring ommisions?


Why are folks surprised by Roenicke starting in Louisville.

Who said anything about being shocked that Roenicke isn't with the team? I know I didn't. At no point did I ever believe that he was a serious candidate in the Reds' eyes. However, Roenicke has major league talent, was pitching well, and was one of the first cuts. Again, I don't see why a guy like him can't be seriously considered. Relievers, unlike most any position, can make very rapid developments. Roenicke was never considered even though he may very well be one of the best 7 relievers on the team. Again, I find that frustrating.



And Dusty was talking all week about Bray getting injured all the time - this move comes out of those discussions.

And now he's healthy. Since he's come back Bray has been pitching fine. Small sample notwithstanding, he doesn't appear to be a guy pitching with serious injury. I don't know how it can be considered a good move when younger, better players are cut from the roster in favour of aging chaff.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 09:22 PM
When has a baseball team not been a work in progress? No team, no matter how good, brings the same 24/25 guys through an entire season - not ever. Why should this one be such.

Why wouldn't a team start with its best available talent? Should a team start with a lesser roster just because it won't use that same 25 man roster throughout the whole year?



Why are folks surprised by Roenicke starting in Louisville. Has Wayne had anyone make the jump from AA to Cincy without going through AAA yet? And Dusty was talking all week about Bray getting injured all the time - this move comes out of those discussions. Whether it's getting him sturdier down there and pitching better, this club is making some good moves, all the wailing and gnashing of teeth notwithstanding.

No one should be shocked that Roenicke is in the minors, but he is likely to be more effective than Mercker on any level.

This also makes me question the Salmon trade. But Bray is the biggest issue here. There is no reason why Mercker should still be on this team with Bray in the minors.

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 09:33 PM
Why wouldn't a team start with its best available talent? Should a team start with a lesser roster just because it won't use that same 25 man roster throughout the whole year?

No one should be shocked that Roenicke is in the minors, but he is likely to be more effective than Mercker on any level.

This also makes me question the Salmon trade. But Bray is the biggest issue here. There is no reason why Mercker should still be on this team with Bray in the minors.

Are you now attending staff meetings with the Reds that enables you to make such an unequivocal statement? The obviously is a reason and we're not privy to it - it may not be a good reason, or it may be perfectly reasonable, but neither you or I know that with the level of certainty you are stating.

I'm not going to micromanage this club, it's make up, etc. Let's play ball Monday and start seeing how this team does. Bill Bray being in Louisville and Kent Mercker being on the squad isn't the end of the world and we'll just have to see how the team plays.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 09:39 PM
Are you now attending staff meetings with the Reds that enables you to make such an unequivocal statement? The obviously is a reason and we're not privy to it - it may not be a good reason, or it may be perfectly reasonable, but neither you or I know that with the level of certainty you are stating.

I'm not going to micromanage this club, it's make up, etc. Let's play ball Monday and start seeing how this team does. Bill Bray being in Louisville and Kent Mercker being on the squad isn't the end of the world and we'll just have to see how the team plays.

I guess if they benched Dunn for Hopper we should take it at face value and say that they obviously have their reasons since we aren't in the clubhouse or attending staff meetings?

Are you going to chastise anyone who cries about Patterson hitting leadoff, stating that maybe the rest of the team unanimously voted that Patterson should be the leadoff guy no matter what his production level is?

Whatever. If anyone wants a good laugh, check this out.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65344&highlight=mercker

redsmetz
03-28-2008, 10:46 PM
I guess if they benched Dunn for Hopper we should take it at face value and say that they obviously have their reasons since we aren't in the clubhouse or attending staff meetings?

Are you going to chastise anyone who cries about Patterson hitting leadoff, stating that maybe the rest of the team unanimously voted that Patterson should be the leadoff guy no matter what his production level is?

Whatever. If anyone wants a good laugh, check this out.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65344&highlight=mercker

Benching Dunn for Hopper would not be on the same mundane level as Bray starting out the season at AAA and Mercker possibly making the team. It's just not.

My point with you was you were speaking with absolute certainty that there was no reason for Bray to not make the team and Mercker too.

As I've said all day, I'm anxious for the season to start and play some real games because all the hue and cry that's gone on the last week or so. We're all chomping at the bit and it's time to just enjoy the games, IMO. I'm tired of the rest of it.

VR
03-28-2008, 10:50 PM
I think the Reds coaching staff just watched these guys too much in practices and pregames. In the weightroom and training rooms.

Had they not been able to see them every day, interact with them, know their mental maturity, have daily one on one sessions with them.....it would have been much more obvious what the roster should have been.

Next year they should just read box scores, watch 10% of the innings played on tv and THEN form the roster.

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 10:58 PM
I think the Reds coaching staff just watched these guys too much in practices and pregames. In the weightroom and training rooms.

Had they not been able to see them every day, interact with them, know their mental maturity, have daily one on one sessions with them.....it would have been much more obvious what the roster should have been.

Next year they should just read box scores, watch 10% of the innings played on tv and THEN form the roster.

Yes, you are so correct. This regime nailed such acquisitions like Cormier, Stanton, Yan, Moeller, Mays, Johnson and Crosby that we should forget ever questioning one of their moves and just assume that their track record speaks for itself.

It's funny how so much stuff beyond the box score seems to go into decisions like these, yet other instances (such as batting order) should be viewed on a statistical basis only.

Until someone can prove to me that 40 year old pitchers coming off reconstructive elbow surgery succeed at a high rate, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the stats aren't in Kent's favor.

VR
03-28-2008, 11:22 PM
Yes, you are so correct. This regime nailed such acquisitions like Cormier, Stanton, Yan, Moeller, Mays, Johnson and Crosby that we should forget ever questioning one of their moves and just assume that their track record speaks for itself.

It's funny how so much stuff beyond the box score seems to go into decisions like these, yet other instances (such as batting order) should be viewed on a statistical basis only.

Until someone can prove to me that 40 year old pitchers coming off reconstructive elbow surgery succeed at a high rate, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the stats aren't in Kent's favor.

Perhaps Bray isn't quite ready, needing a few weeks in the minors to ensure he is ready for a long, brutal season. And you'd like a seasoned vet in there to start the season that has had proven success...and can be a stop-gap for a few weeks.


It's a long season, and the opening day roster means little or nothing.

*BaseClogger*
03-28-2008, 11:24 PM
And you'd like a seasoned vet in there to start the season that has had proven success...and can be a stop-gap for a few weeks.

This is exactly the thought process that has been getting Wayne/Dusty in trouble...

edabbs44
03-28-2008, 11:32 PM
Perhaps Bray isn't quite ready, needing a few weeks in the minors to ensure he is ready for a long, brutal season. And you'd like a seasoned vet in there to start the season that has had proven success...and can be a stop-gap for a few weeks.


It's a long season, and the opening day roster means little or nothing.

It's never a big deal until it is.

VR
03-28-2008, 11:37 PM
We've got to see more dependability," Baker said. "You've got to go two, three days in a row."

Sounds like they want to build his endurance a bit. I hope they send Ross to extended spring as well to build some strength back up.

It's nice the Reds have some very good depth to call on this year, as opposed to throwing everything at April and May and running on fumes the remainder of the year.

flyer85
03-28-2008, 11:40 PM
Sounds like they want to build his endurance a bit. I hope they send Ross to extended spring as well to build some strength back up. unlikely because every day he plays in a major league exhibition game is a day longer he has to spend on the DL. I expect he will be on the opening day roster.

Cedric
03-29-2008, 12:02 AM
It's never a big deal until it is.

You let us know when any bad news is coming. I don't think you miss a single transaction.

VR
03-29-2008, 12:06 AM
unlikely because every day he plays in a major league exhibition game is a day longer he has to spend on the DL. I expect he will be on the opening day roster.

it might be worth a couple weeks of DL for Ross. Unathletic catcher with back problems, not sure the cool weather will help him improve.

Let Bako/Valentin get some early ab's, get Ross back healthy. (perhaps he's good enough to go...but I'd prefer they take the longview)

mth123
03-29-2008, 06:29 AM
I have the advantage of knowing that Stanton is gone too as I post this and many of the earlier posts in this thread did not have that advantage, but I personally am thrilled that Bray was sent down and we may be getting a little new blood in this bullpen. The thing about Bray since he's been here is that when he has been bad he's been awful, and when he's been good he's been mediocre. I know he's been hurt a lot, but he needs to prove that he's not just another piece of sacrificial meat standing out there on the mound IMO. Two or three weeks of effective outings against questionable spring competition with plenty of rest between appearances isn't enough to move Bray from suspect to great lefty hope IMO. Dusty is right about Bray. He needs to show he can be relied upon day in and day out and, barring injury, a couple of months of zeros in AAA are needed prior to another look IMO.

I think Mike Lincoln and his 95 MPH fastball is exactly the kind of thing this pen needs. I still think that Burton's second half of 2007 could be a fluke and Weathers' 2nd half of 2007 showed some really alarming indicators. This pen is going to need some one from the shadows to step up in order to be competitive IMO and hard stuff usually has the best chance on a 3 or 4 hitters and yer outta there basis. I also think Belisle needs to be on the team. The team will need his innings from the pen (or Fogg's should the appropriate role reversal be made eventually) to keep Cueto and Volquez from being pushed too far IMO.

My Staff:

Harang
Arroyo
Cueto
Fogg (switch to pen when Belisle regains full steam)
Volquez

Cordero
Weathers
Coffey
Lincoln
Affeldt
Belisle (to the rotation eventually)
Burton (on the bubble IMO, but I keep him over Brower and Mercker and see what happens)

It would be nice to have another lefty, but Lincoln, Burton, Coffey and Cordero provide some hard stuff down there and that is a nice change IMO. Lots of guys in reserve at AAA, so I keep the entire lot except for Cordero and Weathers on a pretty short leash.

Edit: I see now that Belisle will start on the DL. I guess Mercker stays for now, but that means another spot on the 40 man will be needed. They were down 1, they let Capellan and Stanton go so that is three. They will need one for Cueto, Patterson, Lincoln and Mercker. If Hairston or Cabrera win a bench job over some one like Hopper, they'll need another. My choices for DFA to create room in this order. Majewski, Castro, Gardner, Hanigan, Janish, Drew Anderson, and Dickerson. Hopefully they can deal a guy or two for a better reliever than Mercker to fill Belisle's spot and open room on the 40 Man.

edabbs44
03-29-2008, 08:25 AM
You let us know when any bad news is coming. I don't think you miss a single transaction.

I'm on it.

Opening day is here and the bullpen is highly questionable. Again.

traderumor
03-29-2008, 09:37 AM
I'm on it.

Opening day is here and the bullpen is highly questionable. Again.Funny thing is, teams that think they have a set bullpen may be in for an implosion and those that have "highly questionable" pens will have it going on this year. I think injuries are the only thing that is more unpredictable in the game.

edabbs44
03-29-2008, 10:33 AM
Funny thing is, teams that think they have a set bullpen may be in for an implosion and those that have "highly questionable" pens will have it going on this year. I think injuries are the only thing that is more unpredictable in the game.

Stanton also could have had a 1.37 ERA this year, but I guess we'll never know.