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Matt700wlw
03-30-2008, 03:19 PM
Nothing shocking, really.


Patterson, CF
Keppinger, SS
Griffey, RF
Phillips, 2B
Dunn, LF
Encarnacion, 3B
Hatteberg, 1B
Valentin, C
Harang, RHP

Raisor
03-30-2008, 03:24 PM
No huge surprises. Not what I would have done, but then they aren't paying me to make out the lineup.

Thank goodness it's baseball season.

Caveat Emperor
03-30-2008, 03:26 PM
Every PA Scott Hatteberg takes from Joey Votto puts the "future" that Reds fans are hoping for that much further from reality.

vaticanplum
03-30-2008, 03:28 PM
Without getting too analytical particularly about the pretty glaring problem at the top of the lineup, I will simply state that as long as Dunn bats fifth for this team my eyes will continue to bleed. My heart a little bit too. I love Griffey, but for him to be as cemented in third as he is with Dunn nailed into fifth is just bizarre.

TRF
03-30-2008, 03:31 PM
I'm as big a Votto backer as any, but let the rook absorb OD in Cincinnati. let him enjoy it. Let him come in late, and ease him in. He's young, and has years ahead of him.

Highlifeman21
03-30-2008, 03:33 PM
At least it's Keppinger at SS, and not Castro.

NC Reds
03-30-2008, 03:33 PM
With all of the alternating between lefties and righties I am not so sure that Jerry Narron did not make that lineup. I was hoping that the strict adherence to that little annoyance would end this year. I was wrong. :confused:

Sadly, Patterson at the top and Hatteburg over Votto is kind of what I expected from Dusty. :thumbdown

Tom Servo
03-30-2008, 03:34 PM
Country Kepp!

CTA513
03-30-2008, 03:35 PM
John Fay also posted on his blog that the Reds brought Mario Soto north with them to help out with Cueto and Volquez.

Raisor
03-30-2008, 03:35 PM
I tried not to do this, but I must.

Raisor's opening day lineup (using the same players)

1. Kepp
2. Phillips
3. Dunn
4. EddieE
5. Junior
6. Hatteberg
7. Patterson
8. Valentin

There. That's a 161-1 offense right there. Or something.

dougdirt
03-30-2008, 03:36 PM
So our 6 and 7 hitters have career OBP's 60 points higher than our leadoff hitter? Fantastic.

Raisor
03-30-2008, 03:36 PM
John Fay also posted on his blog that the Reds brought Mario Soto north with them to help out with Cueto and Volquez.

I bet if Mario went out there now, he'd be at least as good as Milton was in his stay in town.

:thumbup:

Cedric
03-30-2008, 03:39 PM
So our 6 and 7 hitters have career OBP's 60 points higher than our leadoff hitter? Fantastic.

If you cared to look at the OBP of this lineup can you now lookup the data on how important lineup order is? Thanks!

Spring~Fields
03-30-2008, 03:40 PM
I tried not to do this, but I must.

Raisor's opening day lineup (using the same players)

1. Kepp
2. Phillips
3. Dunn
4. EddieE
5. Junior
6. Hatteberg
7. Patterson
8. Valentin

There. That's a 161-1 offense right there. Or something.

Reason that you lose that one game is because you made a mistake.

Kepp
Phillips
Dunn
Griffey
Eddie
Patterson
Hatteberg
Valentin

162-0

reds44
03-30-2008, 03:41 PM
"(The starting first baseman) is whoever's playing that day. Joey Votto has a great upside," Baker said. "But Hatteberg had a great spring. We'll go with matchups. (The seven spot) is an important spot in the lineup. Adam Dunn had an OK spring. Edwin (Encarnacion) struggled."
You are going to see alot of both of them. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hatteberg start against Webb and Harden, and Joey to get some starts this weekend against the back end of Philly's rotation.

dougdirt
03-30-2008, 03:43 PM
If you cared to look at the OBP of this lineup can you now lookup the data on how important lineup order is? Thanks!

Its worth probably 3-4 wins a year.... in this division that is very significant.

reds44
03-30-2008, 03:44 PM
Reason that you lose that one game is because you made a mistake.

Kepp
Phillips
Dunn
Griffey
Eddie
Patterson
Hatteberg
Valentin

162-0
Hatteberg
Keppinger
Dunn
Griffey
Phillips
Edwin
Patterson
Valentin

World Series.

klw
03-30-2008, 03:44 PM
Wait a minute. I'm not in the OD lineup? They better not think that I'm only in a platoon. Range- oh I've got range. I'm scrappy. I'll give them that professional AB. I won't clog the bases. Put me in coach.

WMR
03-30-2008, 03:47 PM
LOL @ Patterson leading off and Dunn batting fifth ... I mean, I knew it was inevitably going to happen, but it still sucks something fierce.

fearofpopvol1
03-30-2008, 03:48 PM
I think I'd go with a slightly different configuration

1. Hatteberg
2. Keppinger
3. Dunn
4. Junior
5. Phillips
6. EdE
7. Patterson
8. Valentin

Edit: Looks like Reds44 stole my configuration!

MrCinatit
03-30-2008, 03:48 PM
Wait a minute. I'm not in the OD lineup? They better not think that I'm only in a platoon. Range- oh I've got range. I'm scrappy. I'll give them that professional AB. I won't clog the bases. Put me in coach.

Mr. Castro? Is that you?

WMR
03-30-2008, 03:49 PM
I think I'd go with a slightly different configuration

1. Hatteberg
2. Keppinger
3. Dunn
4. Junior
5. Phillips
6. EdE
7. Patterson
8. Valentin

Edit: Looks like Reds44 stole my configuration!

No way, I am absolutely dying to see EE given some actual protection in a line-up for once.

edabbs44
03-30-2008, 03:50 PM
Eh.

WMR
03-30-2008, 03:50 PM
Raisor's is the best, IMHO.

Caveat Emperor
03-30-2008, 03:52 PM
You are going to see alot of both of them. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hatteberg start against Webb and Harden, and Joey to get some starts this weekend against the back end of Philly's rotation.

Here's their 2008 PECOTA projections:


Last First BA OBP SLG MLVR EqBA EqOBP EqSLG EqA VORP
Votto Joey .278 .357 .494 .103 .275 .353 .486 .283 24.6
Hatteberg Scott .285 .368 .440 .057 .281 .364 .433 .274 10.8

Votto doubles-up Hatteberg in VORP. The only possible reason for the Reds to have us "see a lot of both of them" is if the Reds are genuinely unconcerned about winning games and putting the best lineup on the field everyday.

Spring~Fields
03-30-2008, 03:52 PM
No way, I am absolutely dying to see EE given some actual protection in a line-up for once.

Me too, but I was afraid that I would get cyber lynched if I put EE ahead of Dunn and Griffey. ;)

NC Reds
03-30-2008, 03:54 PM
1. Votto
2. Kepp
3. Dunn
4. Griffey
5. EdE
6. Phillips
7. Bruce
8. Valentin

I like my lineup. Bruce moves up as he gets his feet wet.

jojo
03-30-2008, 03:54 PM
Hey, there's no shortstop in that lineup.... :cool:

Raisor
03-30-2008, 03:55 PM
Raisor's is the best, IMHO.


well, duh.

:thumbup:

reds44
03-30-2008, 03:55 PM
Here's their 2008 PECOTA projections:


Last First BA OBP SLG MLVR EqBA EqOBP EqSLG EqA VORP
Votto Joey .278 .357 .494 .103 .275 .353 .486 .283 24.6
Hatteberg Scott .285 .368 .440 .057 .281 .364 .433 .274 10.8

Votto doubles-up Hatteberg in VORP. The only possible reason for the Reds to have us "see a lot of both of them" is if the Reds are genuinely unconcerned about winning games and putting the best lineup on the field everyday.
I don't think the Reds are too concerned about PECOTA projections. Votto is a slow starter, and eveybody knows it. I have no problem with he and Hatteberg splitting playing time until Votto gets hot, which he will.

Raisor
03-30-2008, 03:56 PM
1. Votto
2. Kepp
3. Dunn
4. Griffey
5. EdE
6. Phillips
7. Bruce
8. Valentin

I like my lineup. Bruce moves up as he gets his feet wet.

I'd have Bruce and Votto in there too, but I was going with the players Dusty is going with.

Caveat Emperor
03-30-2008, 03:59 PM
I don't think the Reds are too concerned about PECOTA projections. Votto is a slow starter, and eveybody knows it. I have no problem with he and Hatteberg splitting playing time until Votto gets hot, which he will.

They should be. It tells them they're playing an inferior player and stealing PAs from a better player -- all while simultaneously stunting the development of the younger player.

The "slow starter" bit is a total rationalization -- for all any of us know, he's gotten whatever "slow start" he might have out of his system and is ready to hit right now. One thing is certain - unless he's playing everyday, we're never going to know. We'll just end up with a jerked-around sample size that will provide continuing justification to start a ballplayer with a declining skill-set who will not be around in 2009 -- when the Reds will need Votto to have a shot at doing something.

Votto needs to see ML pitching to get better. Every pitch he doesn't see because of Scott Hatteberg puts him one pitch further away from reaching whatever future he has in front of him.

NC Reds
03-30-2008, 04:01 PM
I'd have Bruce and Votto in there too, but I was going with the players Dusty is going with.

I couldn't help myself. I like your lineup too, given what Dusty has deemed the opening day lineup.

reds44
03-30-2008, 04:06 PM
They should be. It tells them they're playing an inferior player and stealing PAs from a better player -- all while simultaneously stunting the development of the younger player.

The "slow starter" bit is a total rationalization -- for all any of us know, he's gotten whatever "slow start" he might have out of his system and is ready to hit right now. One thing is certain - unless he's playing everyday, we're never going to know. We'll just end up with a jerked-around sample size that will provide continuing justification to start a ballplayer with a declining skill-set who will not be around in 2009 -- when the Reds will need Votto to have a shot at doing something.

Votto needs to see ML pitching to get better. Every pitch he doesn't see because of Scott Hatteberg puts him one pitch further away from reaching whatever future he has in front of him.
Hatteberg had a .394 OBP last year. If he was 10 years younger he'd be one of redsonze's favorite players. Nothing about his two years in Cincinnati says "declining skills", in fact he put up better stats last year than the year before. Votto is going to get plenty of chances to prove he is better than Hatteberg, and that's what he is going to have to do. Prove it.

PuffyPig
03-30-2008, 04:07 PM
With all of the alternating between lefties and righties I am not so sure that Jerry Narron did not make that lineup. I was hoping that the strict adherence to that little annoyance would end this year. I was wrong. :confused:



I'm guessing you'll see more back to back lefties in our lineup when our lefties learn to hit LH pitching alot better than they currently do.

jojo
03-30-2008, 04:10 PM
Here's their 2008 PECOTA projections:


Last First BA OBP SLG MLVR EqBA EqOBP EqSLG EqA VORP
Votto Joey .278 .357 .494 .103 .275 .353 .486 .283 24.6
Hatteberg Scott .285 .368 .440 .057 .281 .364 .433 .274 10.8

Votto doubles-up Hatteberg in VORP. The only possible reason for the Reds to have us "see a lot of both of them" is if the Reds are genuinely unconcerned about winning games and putting the best lineup on the field everyday.

Pecota also projects Votto to have roughly twice as many PA's as Hatteberg.

jojo
03-30-2008, 04:14 PM
LOL @ Patterson leading off and Dunn batting fifth ... I mean, I knew it was inevitably going to happen, but it still sucks something fierce.

Dusty finally figured out a way to limit Dunn's strikeouts....just bat him less!

Jpup
03-30-2008, 04:16 PM
Kepp
Votto
Dunn
Edwin
Jr.
Phillips
Valentin
Freel

LoganBuck
03-30-2008, 04:20 PM
Dusty's contract is how long again?

sigh

Caveat Emperor
03-30-2008, 04:24 PM
Hatteberg had a .394 OBP last year. If he was 10 years younger he'd be one of redsonze's favorite players. Nothing about his two years in Cincinnati says "declining skills", in fact he put up better stats last year than the year before. Votto is going to get plenty of chances to prove he is better than Hatteberg, and that's what he is going to have to do. Prove it.

He's not 10 years younger. He's going to be 38 this season -- the list of ballplayers who have skills that aren't in decline at that age is a short one indeed. His numbers are the product of being placed into situation that maximize his skill set.

As for your second point -- the hardest place to prove your worth is from the bench. Sporadic playing time isn't going to allow Votto to convince anyone of anything, and it isn't going to help his development. If anything, it'll hinder his development because the places where he is most likely to succeed (v. RHP) are going to be the places where he is being forced to share playing time with Hatteberg.

boognish
03-30-2008, 04:26 PM
Dusty finally figured out a way to limit Dunn's strikeouts....just bat him less!

That, my friend, is hilarious!

smith288
03-30-2008, 04:30 PM
This lineup looks no different than a Boone-Miley-Narron-Mackanin lineup.

I just want a manager who doesnt comform with weak reasoning like player requests and position.

edabbs44
03-30-2008, 04:32 PM
As for your second point -- the hardest place to prove your worth is from the bench. Sporadic playing time isn't going to allow Votto to convince anyone of anything, and it isn't going to help his development. If anything, it'll hinder his development because the places where he is most likely to succeed (v. RHP) are going to be the places where he is being forced to share playing time with Hatteberg.

Very true.

boognish
03-30-2008, 04:38 PM
He's not 10 years younger. He's going to be 38 this season -- the list of ballplayers who have skills that aren't in decline at that age is a short one indeed. His numbers are the product of being placed into situation that maximize his skill set.

As for your second point -- the hardest place to prove your worth is from the bench. Sporadic playing time isn't going to allow Votto to convince anyone of anything, and it isn't going to help his development. If anything, it'll hinder his development because the places where he is most likely to succeed (v. RHP) are going to be the places where he is being forced to share playing time with Hatteberg.

He can run out to his position when he enters the game on double switches....

Levity aside, I'm pretty disappointed.

4256 Hits
03-30-2008, 04:42 PM
I tried not to do this, but I must.

Raisor's opening day lineup (using the same players)

1. Kepp
2. Phillips
3. Dunn
4. EddieE
5. Junior
6. Hatteberg
7. Patterson
8. Valentin

There. That's a 161-1 offense right there. Or something.

Flip EDE and Phillips you have a winner. IMO EdE would best #2 hitter the Reds have had since Larkin.

dougdirt
03-30-2008, 04:43 PM
Flip EDE and Phillips you have a winner. IMO EdE would best #2 hitter the Reds have had since Larkin.

Maybe true, but Phillips is a bad choice to bat cleanup.

top6
03-30-2008, 04:44 PM
If you cared to look at the OBP of this lineup can you now lookup the data on how important lineup order is? Thanks!
I see this argument a lot, but can't we all agree that lineup order is of at least extremely minimal importance? Even if it was worth 1 win every 20 years, why does Dusty consistently do something that is absurdly, completely, obviously and glaringly wrong - i.e., bat someone in the leadoff spot who gets on base far less than the vast majority of major league hitters?

People get all over guys who don't run out a ground ball, but I've yet to see any numbers that show that kind of "hustle" is worth a significant number of wins. But fans are rightfully crticial of players who don't do everything possible to win, and I think that the criticism of Dusty are more than justified since it's obvious he's just not willing to put together the lineup that gives the Reds the best possible chance to win.

WVRedsFan
03-30-2008, 04:45 PM
He's not 10 years younger. He's going to be 38 this season -- the list of ballplayers who have skills that aren't in decline at that age is a short one indeed. His numbers are the product of being placed into situation that maximize his skill set.

As for your second point -- the hardest place to prove your worth is from the bench. Sporadic playing time isn't going to allow Votto to convince anyone of anything, and it isn't going to help his development. If anything, it'll hinder his development because the places where he is most likely to succeed (v. RHP) are going to be the places where he is being forced to share playing time with Hatteberg.
Agreed. As much as I love Hatt as a person, he has lived off the hitting-friendly confines of GABP. Last year he hit .370 at home and .244 on the road. He fell off in the second half, but not as much since he didn't see much time (70+ games out of 116), but that may be a reason for playing him opening day. His OBP is 85 points less on the road, too.

But, like you, if we are about the future (and I'm convinced we're not), we'd let Votto play at home, on the road, against lefties and see how he develops. But we won't.

Jpup
03-30-2008, 04:47 PM
I have no problem with Hatteberg starting on Opening Day. He's been very good as a Red and had a great spring. Votto will have his time. I don't think one or the other will make a difference on Day 1.

boognish
03-30-2008, 05:03 PM
Is there anything to the fact that Hatteberg typically falls off late in the season and Votto is labeled (with evidence) a slow starter?

I hate to believe it is based solely on the spring results, but that is looking like the case.

gm
03-30-2008, 05:18 PM
This lineup looks no different than a Boone-Miley-Narron-Mackanin lineup.

I was thinking the same thing, especially in regards to the middle of the lineup: they all chose to seperate Griffey and Dunn with the "best available" RH hitter and desired speed/bat handling versus OB% at the top of the order.

Now the typical RZ response is to say "that lineup is wrong and here's a better one" but after 4 Red's managers came to nearly the same conclusions I'm starting to wonder...if the best manager in ML history (McGraw, Mack, Stengel, Weaver, whoever you like) were to come along and manage the 2004-2008 Reds, construct a batting order like Dusty (et al) would he get the same game thread "treatment" as the previous/current Mgr?

WMR
03-30-2008, 05:23 PM
I'd take the K.C. manager over any of those "all time greats" you listed.

bucksfan2
03-30-2008, 05:23 PM
I see this argument a lot, but can't we all agree that lineup order is of at least extremely minimal importance? Even if it was worth 1 win every 20 years, why does Dusty consistently do something that is absurdly, completely, obviously and glaringly wrong - i.e., bat someone in the leadoff spot who gets on base far less than the vast majority of major league hitters?

People get all over guys who don't run out a ground ball, but I've yet to see any numbers that show that kind of "hustle" is worth a significant number of wins. But fans are rightfully crticial of players who don't do everything possible to win, and I think that the criticism of Dusty are more than justified since it's obvious he's just not willing to put together the lineup that gives the Reds the best possible chance to win.

I really think when you look at an aggegate sum of a season the lineup order seems important but when you look at it game by game the importance declines a little. Quite a few times the most important at bats are those by the 7th and 8th hitters. I even remember the Dunn walkoff HR vs the Indians and a few innings earlier Juan Castro hit a 2 or 3 run bomb that made Dunn's Hr matter.

I guess in my rambling I am trying to say that you don't know which atbats in a given game are going to be the important ones. You don't know how many times a leadoff hitter will actually lead off an inning and you also don't know how many times your cleanup hitter will step to the atbat with people in scoring position.

WVRedsFan
03-30-2008, 05:25 PM
Is there anything to the fact that Hatteberg typically falls off late in the season and Votto is labeled (with evidence) a slow starter?

I hate to believe it is based solely on the spring results, but that is looking like the case.

All I could find was his 2007 statistics which showed his BA/OBP falling in the second half. Of course, Narron wore him out in the first half (73 of 81 games) and Votto took up most of the last month or so.

Votto, OTOH was .183/.333 in BA/OBP last year at Lousiville, bug came back with a .404/.496 in May and .317/.387 in June.

reds44
03-30-2008, 05:25 PM
Could be worse, the lineup could look like this.

Freel CF
Phillips 2B
Griffey RF
Conine 1B
Gonzalez SS
Dunn DH
Hopper LF
Castro 3B
Moeller C

Actual lineup Narron used last year.

vaticanplum
03-30-2008, 05:27 PM
He's not 10 years younger. He's going to be 38 this season -- the list of ballplayers who have skills that aren't in decline at that age is a short one indeed. His numbers are the product of being placed into situation that maximize his skill set.

Hatteberg's skill set is not the kind to decline overnight. A first baseman with an exceedingly good eye at the plate is a better bet for a longer career than a flame thrower or a power hitter. I'm not at all saying he deserves to be played over Votto simply by virtue of his age -- just that the finer details of the situation are worth considering than merely passing him off as old.

Your point about not improving on the bench, however, is well taken. If Hatteberg isn't clearly playing well above expectation early, they should switch them (which I believe they will do, and which I think will probably happen). If Hatteberg tears it up for a while, I'm a full advocate of sending Votto to triple-A for a while to keep him polished (which I doubt they'll do, and which I kind of hope doesn't happen anyway). At this point I still think it's much ado about nothing though. We've no idea what this lineup will look like in a week. I think this particular choice for the lineup is perfectly acceptable given the circumstances.

mth123
03-30-2008, 05:29 PM
My turn:

Kepp SS
Hatte 1B
Dunn LF
EdE 3B
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Patterson CF
Javy C

Screwball
03-30-2008, 05:32 PM
Maybe true, but Phillips is a bad choice to bat cleanup.

Not against lefties.



Could be worse, the lineup could look like this.

Freel CF
Phillips 2B
Griffey RF
Conine 1B
Gonzalez SS
Dunn DH
Hopper LF
Castro 3B
Moeller C

Actual lineup Narron used last year.


:barf:

Stormy
03-30-2008, 05:34 PM
Every PA Scott Hatteberg takes from Joey Votto puts the "future" that Reds fans are hoping for that much further from reality.

It's just sad. Dusty's typical CF/SS combo at the top of the order, which soon enough will likely be the domain of the career sub-.300 tandem of Patterson and Gonzalez. Likewise, vets already taking away time from prospects, whether it be via Bruce's absence, or Hatteberg stealing ABs from Votto, or the inevitable day when EdE starts to ride pine in favor of a Keppinger or Freel, or the plate appearances lost to our top offensive producer batting #5 etc... Every Dusty 'stereotype' will eventually demonstrate itself to be rooted in fact rather than myth, unfortunately.

It's not a big deal on Opening Day, but as it all accumulates over the course of a full season, it likely will amount to a significant deterrent to winning the NL Central (especially as we start to watch him manage the pitching staff, and his in-game tactical decisions).

I HATE to be so skeptical about such a potentially exciting team, prior to Opening Day, but I can't shake my disdain for Dusty's every philosophical bent. Which is unfortunate, as I really have liked the direction Krivsky has taken since the Narron firing.

Stormy
03-30-2008, 05:45 PM
Hatteberg had a .394 OBP last year. If he was 10 years younger he'd be one of redsonze's favorite players. Nothing about his two years in Cincinnati says "declining skills", in fact he put up better stats last year than the year before. Votto is going to get plenty of chances to prove he is better than Hatteberg, and that's what he is going to have to do. Prove it.

He was purely a platoon player, thus escalating his production. It's time to see how Votto fares against both LHP and RHP at this level, and as an everyday player.

Chip R
03-30-2008, 05:46 PM
Wait till Castro's batting 2nd.

Reds1
03-30-2008, 05:49 PM
Nothing shocking, really.


Patterson, CF - speed
Keppinger, SS - best hitter
Griffey, RF - power, ability to work hitter, etc.
Phillips, 2B - not my clean up hitter, but ok
Dunn, LF - LIke to see him higher
Encarnacion, 3B - key to team
Hatteberg, 1B - Votto and Hatte this far down - Wow!
Valentin, C
Harang, RHP

Not perfect, but that's a pretty darn good line up. We'll should see a lot of Freel/Hopp and Votto. I can see some slumps in this line up, but if EE comes through this line up can be sweet!

Reds1
03-30-2008, 05:50 PM
I have no problem with Hatteberg starting on Opening Day. He's been very good as a Red and had a great spring. Votto will have his time. I don't think one or the other will make a difference on Day 1.

I have no problem with it as long as it's not a daily thing. He's had a nice spring for sure and consistant last year. Baker doesn't know Votto well. I'm not surprised.

wheels
03-30-2008, 05:53 PM
If they went out and somehow obtained a catcher that didn't totally stink on ice, it would outweigh any of Patterson's shortcomings as a leadoff hitter.

That catching situation is heinous.

Reds1
03-30-2008, 06:14 PM
If they went out and somehow obtained a catcher that didn't totally stink on ice, it would outweigh any of Patterson's shortcomings as a leadoff hitter.

That catching situation is heinous.

I agree there! The problem is no one is available. At this point I really want David Ross back. We could lose some games due to this position - something that shouldn't happen.

Far East
03-30-2008, 06:52 PM
Dusty's rationale for the part of the lineup that Hatteberg is in:

"The regular first baseman is going to be the one playing that day. Joey has great upside potential, but Hatteberg had a great spring. ... Joey came up a little strong at the end, you wish he would have done better. He's here now because of what he did last year. Dunn has had a fair spring, Edwin (Encarnacion's) stuggled all spring in the sixth spot and you don't want that many guys in a row who are not on the top of their game. We want someone who is swinging the bat pretty good, at least initially. Everyone had a few at-bats to show if they're right now. You have to go with right now and hopefully the other guys get their acts together."

Bottom line: the manager believes that with this lineup he has a better chance of starting the year off in the "W" column.

KronoRed
03-30-2008, 06:57 PM
About what was expected, no Castro but Dunn in the ridiculous 5th spot, if lineup order doesn't matter then why not chuck the old rule of speed at the top and just go 1-9 from best to worst player? shouldn't a goal be to get your best players the most plate appearances?

Hmm.

GAC
03-30-2008, 07:12 PM
I will simply state that as long as Dunn bats fifth for this team my eyes will continue to bleed.

Me too vp. I'd bat him leadoff before Patterson (and that may be an extreme). He's young, he has moderate speed (he's no Hatteberg/Casey), and more importantly - he gets on base.

I'm assuming Dusty's logic (approach) is - get the guys ahead of Dunn on base so he can knock'em in. But he has two guys, in Patterson and BP, who are OB% questionable. We don't know yet about Kepp (but he does love to swing the bat).

IMHO, Dunn should be batting ahead of these guys.

cincyinco
03-30-2008, 07:32 PM
I haven't gotten all the way through this thread, but I pose a question:

Would Phillips be a better option at lead off for this team? Now, I know we like OBP in the front. But hear me out.

Phillips has some speed, something dustly likes at the top of the order. He has a better OBP than Patterson as well. He's not exactly the most ideal player there, but I pose this also for a reason that sticks out at me like a sore thumb.

Phillips has a propensity to ground into double plays. So much so that folks around here are saying he's grounded "into a phillips" when he does so. Does putting him in the leadoff spot help to avoid this scenario when phillips is up to bat? I really don't like him hitting 4th, or as in other scenario's 2nd, due to this tendency.

Could he be "soriano-esque" if put into the leadoff spot? Perhaps not the most ideal, but helps mask some of his weaknesses?

Or am I just crazy?

Raisor
03-30-2008, 07:37 PM
I haven't gotten all the way through this thread, but I pose a question:

Would Phillips be a better option at lead off for this team? ?

If the choice is between Patterson and Phillips, then heck yeah I'd go with Phillips, and for the reasons you listed.

I think Phillips would be much better at the top of the lineup then in the middle.

Tommyjohn25
03-30-2008, 07:45 PM
I think we need to let the Dusty stereotypes go when it comes to "veteran presence" 2/3rds of the rotation is made up of young, inexperienced pitchers with extremely high ceilings. It's one game, opening day. Votto can and will be the future.

Cedric
03-30-2008, 07:50 PM
I see this argument a lot, but can't we all agree that lineup order is of at least extremely minimal importance? Even if it was worth 1 win every 20 years, why does Dusty consistently do something that is absurdly, completely, obviously and glaringly wrong - i.e., bat someone in the leadoff spot who gets on base far less than the vast majority of major league hitters?

People get all over guys who don't run out a ground ball, but I've yet to see any numbers that show that kind of "hustle" is worth a significant number of wins. But fans are rightfully crticial of players who don't do everything possible to win, and I think that the criticism of Dusty are more than justified since it's obvious he's just not willing to put together the lineup that gives the Reds the best possible chance to win.

I think it's about having a little perspective. I'm just happy we have a manager with some guts. Without Dusty you probably don't see Cueto starting and Stanton gone. I'll take the trade off.

*BaseClogger*
03-30-2008, 08:00 PM
I think it's about having a little perspective. I'm just happy we have a manager with some guts. Without Dusty you probably don't see Cueto starting and Stanton gone. I'll take the trade off.

I think his perspective may be to strive for more than a trade off :dunno:

jojo
03-30-2008, 08:02 PM
I think it's about having a little perspective. I'm just happy we have a manager with some guts. Without Dusty you probably don't see Cueto starting and Stanton gone. I'll take the trade off.

I don't think that's a given.

Reds1
03-30-2008, 08:03 PM
I think it's about having a little perspective. I'm just happy we have a manager with some guts. Without Dusty you probably don't see Cueto starting and Stanton gone. I'll take the trade off.

AMEN - however, I'm still not sure why Volquez not in the 3rd spot and Cueto in the 4th or 5th. :)

dougdirt
03-30-2008, 08:31 PM
All I could find was his 2007 statistics which showed his BA/OBP falling in the second half. Of course, Narron wore him out in the first half (73 of 81 games) and Votto took up most of the last month or so.

Votto, OTOH was .183/.333 in BA/OBP last year at Lousiville, bug came back with a .404/.496 in May and .317/.387 in June.

Votto got contacts after April.... he never needed them before but apparently his sight went a little bad in the offseason.

Highlifeman21
03-30-2008, 08:51 PM
If the choice is between Patterson and Phillips, then heck yeah I'd go with Phillips, and for the reasons you listed.

I think Phillips would be much better at the top of the lineup then in the middle.

Batting Phillips in the middle of the lineup just helps my projection of 40 GIDP for him in 2008.

KronoRed
03-30-2008, 09:21 PM
Batting Phillips in the middle of the lineup just helps my projection of 40 GIDP for him in 2008.

Could the Casey be renamed the Phillips? :D

4256 Hits
03-30-2008, 09:31 PM
Maybe true, but Phillips is a bad choice to bat cleanup.

I agree; but w/ the roster the Reds have I would bat Phillips 4th Vs. lefties and Griffey Vs. righties.

Hopefully sometime this year we get to see Dunn then Bruce in the 3 and 4 hole but I am holding little hope of that. :(

SteelSD
03-30-2008, 09:32 PM
Batting Phillips in the middle of the lineup just helps my projection of 40 GIDP for him in 2008.

Sorry, but having Patterson lead off means that your projection will likely fall short. ;)

klw
03-30-2008, 09:36 PM
Could the Casey be renamed the Phillips? :D

Only if getting thrown out at the plate could then be named the Casey. He's the mayor he deserves a lasting name.:)

Cyclone792
03-30-2008, 09:37 PM
Could the Casey be renamed the Phillips? :D

Most definitely.

Except for the rarely seen triple play, the Phillips is the worst offensive event for a player. And Brandon Phillips was tied for 3rd in the NL last year in grounding into his new namesake, the Phillips.

Cyclone792
03-30-2008, 09:37 PM
Only if getting thrown out at the plate could then be named the Casey. He's the mayor he deserves a lasting name.:)

Getting thrown out at first base from left field could be his for a long, long time.