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coachw513
03-31-2008, 06:25 PM
And they aren't ours for once...Wood AND Gagne have given up 3 each in the 9th inning...if we could just solve that pesky little "have the lead going into the 9th inning" thing, we'll be in good shape...

flyer85
03-31-2008, 06:39 PM
The cubs have a real answer in Marmol(the Brewers do not) ... he'll be the closer by the end of April.

reds44
03-31-2008, 06:40 PM
The cubs have a real answer in Marmol(the Brewers do not) ... he'll be the closer by the end of April.
People in Chicago don't want Marmol as the closer because he is "too good at throwing multiple innings."

My respone: just throw him multiple innings at the end of games.

MrCinatit
04-01-2008, 02:23 AM
I wonder which will end up being worse: Wood as the closer, or Dempster as a starter.
I am betting on the latter.

Ron Madden
04-01-2008, 02:39 AM
Bullpen woes... are most likely to hang around GABP for the foreseeable future.

RedlegJake
04-01-2008, 03:12 AM
Bullpen woes... are most likely to hang around GABP for the foreseeable future.

My guess is not so much...moments of frustration but not the unending debacles of last year. My own guess is we'll be surprised by our pitching and frustrated by our offense this season.

mth123
04-01-2008, 04:21 AM
People in Chicago don't want Marmol as the closer because he is "too good at throwing multiple innings."

My respone: just throw him multiple innings at the end of games.

I wish the Reds had Marmol. Or Wood. Or Howry. Or Wuertz. Or Hart. Or Lieber. I don't realy think the Cubs have bullpen woes. (The Brewers do though).

REDREAD
04-01-2008, 09:09 AM
Bullpen woes... are most likely to hang around GABP for the foreseeable future.

I agree the bullpen is a huge question mark, outside of Cordero.

I'm glad that Maj is in AAA and Stanton is gone.

The question is whether we can scrape up two or three reliable arms after Cordero.. I'm hoping Coffey comes back, Burton is good, and one of the veterans is acceptable. At least that's a plausible scenerio.. Last season, I had a hard time coming up with a scenerio where the pen would not be a liablity.

coachw513
04-01-2008, 10:00 AM
I wish the Reds had Marmol. Or Wood. Or Howry. Or Wuertz. Or Hart. Or Lieber. I don't realy think the Cubs have bullpen woes. (The Brewers do though).

Sincere question: Does Marmol or Wood have a "closer's mentality"??...it's why (even though we 'hated' it) Weathers was competant even though his "stuff" is substandard by comparison...what Smoltz and Eckersly did (becoming an elite closer after starting) isn't as easy as it appears IMHO and I'm interested to see the transition for Wood...not that he won't be great, but it will be interesting...

redsfan30
04-01-2008, 11:13 AM
I've never, ever understood the lack of respect for David Weathers. He is certainly far from flashy but he gets the job done more often than not. He will take care of the 8th inning this year.

I'm somewhat optimistic about Todd Coffey coming into the season. I've never been a big fan of his, but I just get the feeling he's going to perform well this season.

I think Jeremy Affeldt will be fine. At the time of his signing, pretty much everybody said if he's used in the bullpen rather than in the rotation, this could be a very good signing. Well....where did that sentiment go? The bell has run on the season and I think he'll be just fine.

Kent Mercker....we'll see, but I'm willing to give him a chance.

Every year there seems to be someone (or someones) that you just have a feeling won't last long in the bullpen, and this year that role is probably filled by Mike Lincoln. He might surprise and I hope he does, but he is the one I'm least confident in.

This bullpen won't be the best in the league, but I'd be absolutely shocked if the ineptitude continues.

Ravenlord
04-04-2008, 10:53 PM
since of the ones that popped on the search, here is where i'll post.

fun with Jeremy Affeldt:

Age ERA IP K/BB BB/9 K/9 H/9 HR/9 WHIP OBA SLG OPS BABIP
35 4.95 76.1 1.53 3.77 5.78 10.73 0.71 1.61 1.61 371 465 321
36 5.26 49.2 1.34 5.26 7.07 10.15 0.54 1.71 1.71 366 386 325
37 6.20 97.1 1.38 4.69 5.00 9.96 1.20 1.61 1.61 359 435 267
38 3.51 59 1.39 5.03 7.02 7.17 0.46 1.36 1.36 332 375 251
what the hell is wrong with you to have a 267 BABIP and still end with a 6.20 ERA?!

Sea Ray
04-05-2008, 01:37 AM
Whose numbers are those since Affeldt is 28 yrs old?

WVRedsFan
04-05-2008, 01:54 AM
Whose numbers are those since Affeldt is 28 yrs old?
The stats are correct, though. The guy just hasn't been a good pitcher. Not unlike any number of guys we have in the bullpen. The starters are our strength, not counting Josh Fogg.

Sea Ray
04-05-2008, 02:05 AM
Burton looked good tonight. Cordero, Burton and Weathers are a pretty good threesome and if the rest of the bullpen falters, look for reinforcements in the names of Bray, Roenicke and Fisher later on this summer. I think the bullpen will be OK.

fearofpopvol1
04-05-2008, 03:00 AM
Burton looked amazing tonight. I think you have to seriously consider him as the 8th inning guy. He was great in that role last year. Weathers may be better in the 7th. I'd actually like to see more of Mercker and Lincoln. They've only pitched twice, but I thought both looked pretty sharp. I think Affeldt is a decent option for a long relief kind of role. The pen is not great, but what's most important is that Dusty figures out who to utilize and where. That will make a big difference.

I wonder what happens when Belisle is healthy? Anyone think they'd push Fogg out and slot Belisle in instead?

Ron Madden
04-05-2008, 03:44 AM
I wonder what happens when Belisle is healthy? Anyone think they'd push Fogg out and slot Belisle in instead?

I have faith in Matt Belisle, start hm every fiive days and take your chances.

Josh Fogg is Josh Fogg.

Josh Fogg will always be Josh Fogg.

What scares hell outta me is that Wayne is Wayne.


;)

Sea Ray
04-05-2008, 01:07 PM
It all depends on Fogg. If he continues to pitch like last night, you bet Belisle will replace him. That first inning HR to Pat Burrell was his fatal mistake. You have to retire him after getting two strikes (with two out) on him. You can't let him take you deep in that situation.

Unassisted
04-05-2008, 01:16 PM
I've never, ever understood the lack of respect for David Weathers. He is certainly far from flashy but he gets the job done more often than not. He will take care of the 8th inning this year.
I think there are two major reasons that people refuse to believe Weathers is a competent reliever.

He doesn't look the part. I've seen so many posts commenting on his appearance. David Wells didn't look the part, either, but he had some good years. :dunno:

Some people remember his earlier stint with the Reds and lump him in with the other failed retreads from the Reds' past. This is a guy who actually got better while he was on other teams' rosters, instead of just older.

mth123
04-05-2008, 01:38 PM
I think there are two major reasons that people refuse to believe Weathers is a competent reliever.

He doesn't look the part. I've seen so many posts commenting on his appearance. David Wells didn't look the part, either, but he had some good years. :dunno:

Some people remember his earlier stint with the Reds and lump him in with the other failed retreads from the Reds' past. This is a guy who actually got better while he was on other teams' rosters, instead of just older.

Its not his looks.

1st Half 2007: 39.66 IP, 14ER, 11B, 34K.

2nd half 2007: 38 IP, 17ER, 16BB, 16K.

That is a pretty clear drop off, especially in K Rate while the walk rate increases slightly. The 1:1 K:BB ratio is concerning. I just wonder if its coming back to Earth, age catching up or fatigue from overuse in the first half. If its the latter, we should see a bounce back and that would make me feel better about the 2008 pen. But at his age, there is always a possibility that the bounce back won't come, so I'm concerned.

MartyFan
04-05-2008, 01:57 PM
And they aren't ours for once...Wood AND Gagne have given up 3 each in the 9th inning...if we could just solve that pesky little "have the lead going into the 9th inning" thing, we'll be in good shape...

For once i feel pretty good about our BP...not 100% at ease but better than I have since we had a VERY good BP back in the late 90's

Ravenlord
04-05-2008, 02:45 PM
Whose numbers are those since Affeldt is 28 yrs old?

numbers are right, i just entered the age wrong for whatever reason.

WebScorpion
04-05-2008, 10:32 PM
For once i feel pretty good about our BP...not 100% at ease but better than I have since we had a VERY good BP back in the late 90's
This is my feeling as well. I think this 'pen could shape up to be the best one since the turn of the century. It all depends on how they are used, and who comes up to assist when injuries or complete incompetence occur. I'd still like to see a sidearmer or knuckleballer in the mix, but other than that, I think it has all the makings of an excellent bullpen. :thumbup:

WVRedsFan
04-06-2008, 12:06 AM
For once i feel pretty good about our BP...not 100% at ease but better than I have since we had a VERY good BP back in the late 90's

At least they haven't had the total meltdown we witnessed over the last few years. I still worry about whether we've worn Weathers out over the last couple of years (his first appearance showed concern), whether Coffey will ever use his head when he pitches, and whether Mercker is a better choice than Bray (not that I think either one of them are very good).

I guess it would be accurate to say I feel better about this bullpen. I don't see a Stanton or a Hammonds or a Graves in it, so it must be better. So far, the bullpen has pitched 17 innings allowing 12 hits and 6 earned runs. They've walked 9 (which is somewhat alarming) and struck out 12. That means we've used the bullpen over three innings per night without a major blowup. The bullpen has allowed at least one run in each game and the ERA is 3.18. Not bad, but it's early.

I'll keep my fingers crossed.

membengal
04-06-2008, 08:04 AM
I thought in the disaster that was Josh Fogg Friday night, the good news was seeing Jared Burton dominate for two innings. 4 Ks! And was throwing smoke to do it. Very encouraging.

paulrichjr
04-06-2008, 10:15 AM
I have faith in Matt Belisle, start hm every fiive days and take your chances.

Josh Fogg is Josh Fogg.

Josh Fogg will always be Josh Fogg.

What scares hell outta me is that Wayne is Wayne.


;)

What scares you is Wayne is Wayne???

Let's see just one example of Wayne being Wayne is his ability to decide which players deserve to stay with the Reds...(Cueto, Bruce etc) and not trade and which players to go after (Volquez, Phillips, Arroyo). Up until the beginning of last year I despised him but now I kind of like Wayne being Wayne.

By the way signing the Foggs, Castros, etc to little contracts and really even Stanton (in the grand scheme of things $4 million isn't a killer for a MLB team) is something that all teams do for filler.

WVRedsFan
04-06-2008, 11:14 AM
I think Ron was referring to his choice in pitchers.

Majewski
Stanton
Cormier
Williams
Kim
Mays
Yan
Coutlangus
Guardado
McBeth
Saarloos
Santos
Fogg
Affeldt

And that's only in two years' time! That's Wayne being Wayne. Wayne in the past 6 months hasn't been Wayne, and I applaud that.

Ron Madden
04-06-2008, 04:53 PM
I think Ron was referring to his choice in pitchers.

Majewski
Stanton
Cormier
Williams
Kim
Mays
Yan
Coutlangus
Guardado
McBeth
Saarloos
Santos
Fogg
Affeldt

And that's only in two years' time! That's Wayne being Wayne. Wayne in the past 6 months hasn't been Wayne, and I applaud that.


Exactly. ;)

bucksfan2
04-07-2008, 08:59 AM
I think Ron was referring to his choice in pitchers.

Majewski
Stanton
Cormier
Williams
Kim
Mays
Yan
Coutlangus
Guardado
McBeth
Saarloos
Santos
Fogg
Affeldt

And that's only in two years' time! That's Wayne being Wayne. Wayne in the past 6 months hasn't been Wayne, and I applaud that.

When Wayne got here the pen was in the worst shape most of us had ever seen it. He had to change it around and you don't do that by standing pat. He has added quite a few bull pen arms and made a few bad moves (Stanton) but I wonder how many arms an average major league team shuffles through their pen during a season. By the way Dave Williams was an Obie move and not a Krivsky move.

As for Weathers this season I think he will have a good year. He no longer has to be the guy. He is not even the #2 guy. With Burton pitching well Weathers can pitch in a less pressure situation now.

camisadelgolf
04-07-2008, 09:20 AM
Sun-Woo Kim was acquired for practically nothing just so he could pitch in one game. In the one game he pitched, he actually did well, too. That was a pretty good acquisition, if you ask me. As for Santos, he was a mop-up pitcher. When the Reds were done with him, they traded him for cash. Mays was acquired because the Reds needed bullpen help. In the bullpen, Mays was lights out. In fact, he was so good, Narron thought it would translate it to the rotation (and boy, was he wrong). Guardado actually helped the Reds quite a bit on 2006. Granted, the Saarloos, Cormier, and Stanton moves looks dumb in retrospect. As for Majewski, we could bring up how Jim Bowden broke the rules in that trade. We could also bring up how Daryl Thompson is skyrocketing as a prospect. Bringing in Esteban Yan helped the team more than it hurt. The jury is still out on Affeldt on Fogg. Marcus McBeth and Jon Coutlangus have both shown potential. Anyway, no GM is perfect. Believe it or not, the pitching has improved since Krivsky took over (even if you don't include Cueto, Volquez, Cordero, etc.).

WebScorpion
04-07-2008, 11:02 PM
I think Ron was referring to his choice in pitchers.

Majewski
Stanton
Cormier
Williams
Kim
Mays
Yan
Coutlangus
Guardado
McBeth
Saarloos
Santos
Fogg
Affeldt

And that's only in two years' time! That's Wayne being Wayne. Wayne in the past 6 months hasn't been Wayne, and I applaud that.

Sort of a selective list, isn't it? Didn't Wayne pick Arroyo, Burton, Cordero, Lincoln, Volquez, Maloney, and Thompson? ...or do they somehow count less because they're still with the team and pitching well? If you go strictly by investment, I'd bet Arroyo and Cordero have more $$$ invested in them than that entire list, which in my mind, makes them his REAL choices. Just my two cents. :D

WVRedsFan
04-07-2008, 11:40 PM
Sort of a selective list, isn't it? Didn't Wayne pick Arroyo, Burton, Cordero, Lincoln, Volquez, Maloney, and Thompson? ...or do they somehow count less because they're still with the team and pitching well? If you go strictly by investment, I'd bet Arroyo and Cordero have more $$$ invested in them than that entire list, which in my mind, makes them his REAL choices. Just my two cents. :D

I imagine if you added up the money spent on all those gone, it might be surprising how much it cost. Certainly, not as much as Cordero, Arroyo, and Burton, but a pretty good chunk of change.

Still, the list is there of the fallen and you would have to look at the mis-firings as well as the successes. You might say, he threw a bunch of stuff on the wall to see if it stuck. Some did and some didn't.

I won't go into camisadelgolf's list that says every one of the list had potential because I simply don't remember it that way. I can remember driving along US 220 in Virginia and listening to Joe Mays get his brains beaten out as one of my distinct memories of that season, but the proof is when you combine Kim, Santos. mays, Saarloos, Cromier, and Stanton's statistics, you get 195 innings where they allowed 248 hits, 121 earned runs and an ERA of 5.58. If that was helping the Reds, we don't need any more help.

Yep, Wayne has done better. Well, sort of. The poor judgment in signing Fogg seems to be along the same line as those six listed above, but you also have to understand that of our five starters, he really had nothing to do with three of them being here. Of our bullpen, he cn pretty much take full credit. If he finally gets it right, horray. We all win.

IslandRed
04-08-2008, 10:03 AM
You might say, he threw a bunch of stuff on the wall to see if it stuck. Some did and some didn't.

If you took over an organization just before spring training that had one genuinely good pitcher above A-ball on it, you'd throw a bunch of stuff against the wall, too. :p:

I agree, a lot of it was churn for churn's sake and sifting through other teams' leftovers looking for something good thrown out by mistake, but you can do that when you know what you have isn't any good. Krivsky's significant missteps were, obviously, the Nationals trade -- not that targeting relievers was a bad idea, but paying too much for them -- and doing multi-year deals for Stanton and Cormier. Several other moves were ineffectual but didn't leave us any worse off than before.

But I don't see how it can questioned that the state of the organization's pitching, top to bottom, is light-years better than when Krivsky got here.

WVRedsFan
04-08-2008, 10:33 AM
If you took over an organization just before spring training that had one genuinely good pitcher above A-ball on it, you'd throw a bunch of stuff against the wall, too. :p:

I agree, a lot of it was churn for churn's sake and sifting through other teams' leftovers looking for something good thrown out by mistake, but you can do that when you know what you have isn't any good. Krivsky's significant missteps were, obviously, the Nationals trade -- not that targeting relievers was a bad idea, but paying too much for them -- and doing multi-year deals for Stanton and Cormier. Several other moves were ineffectual but didn't leave us any worse off than before.

But I don't see how it can questioned that the state of the organization's pitching, top to bottom, is light-years better than when Krivsky got here.Totally agree. This is the best we've seen since...forever, so far. A rookie GM makes mistakes, and just what he did. I don't think I'm reaching when I say that I doubt Bob C. would have hired Krivsky, but it's clear that the law has been laid down and it's working. The only exception is Fogg, who was wanted by no one (funny how we wanted millions and then took onely 1 million to play for us). Maybe it will work out.