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coachw513
03-31-2008, 07:44 PM
I thought it at the time (that Valentin cost the Reds a double by coasting out of the box in the 3rd inning) but apparently Baker isn't going to watch these things without response...

From Fay's Blog:


Javy Valentin thought the ball he hit in the third might be out. He broke out of the box slowly. The ball hit the base of the fence in right. He ended up with 330-foot single.

Could it have been a double?

"Maybe," Valentin said. "If I run right away, I got an opportunity."

"It's been addressed," Dusty Baker said.

"I apologized," Valentin said. "It's not going to happen again."

Of course, it's REAL change when it either doesn't happen again from anyone or if Dusty will deal with Griffey, Dunn et al in a similar manner...

Stormy
03-31-2008, 07:54 PM
Good for Dusty. I do expect that Dusty will have these guys intently focused and giving maximum effort before it's all said and done, and that hasn't always been the case in Redsland in recent years.

Too bad baseball doesn't have offensive and defensive coordinators, whose job is to put the best 9 on the field, and in the optimal positions to succeed, leaving Dusty relegated to the realms of oversight, leadership, motivation, preparation etc... ;)

Ltlabner
03-31-2008, 07:54 PM
Yea, I hate to pronounce that "all is well" based on one news blurb. That said, it is refreshing to hear something be adressed right away and directly to the player. I don't know why, but I like hearing that JV actually appoglized for screwing up. To me, when you respect your boss and care about your job you own up and admit your errors. This can include applogizing.

Does respect translate into wins? Remains to be seen, but as I said, very refreshing.

jojo
03-31-2008, 08:01 PM
Few people seem to realize that Javy was running his hardest.... :cool:

The real test will be whether Dusty puts the hammer down on the Jr's of the world....

cincrazy
03-31-2008, 08:15 PM
Few people seem to realize that Javy was running his hardest.... :cool:

The real test will be whether Dusty puts the hammer down on the Jr's of the world....

Jr. was busting it around the bases pretty well on the Phillips triple ;)

TOBTTReds
03-31-2008, 08:45 PM
I heard some boo's when Hatte pouted to the dugout after drop 3rd strike. It was far enough away from the catcher to run. I wonder if that was addressed too.

wolfboy
03-31-2008, 08:59 PM
Put him in the bullpen or whatever

Cyclone792
04-01-2008, 09:05 AM
I do have to admit I laughed quite a bit when Valentin pulled his "I'm gonna jog to first" stunt. New manager, new name manager making big bucks, fundamentals, new attitude, blah blah blah and the very first hit of the season for the team was a double-turned-into-a-single thanks to well ... you know ...

It's just so ironic that it's absolute poetry. Hilarious poetry at that.

Put him on the bench or whatever. ;)

Blimpie
04-01-2008, 09:14 AM
Jr. was busting it around the bases pretty well on the Phillips triple ;)I am sure that he was "busting it" to the best of his abilities. However, even my nine year old son commented that it appeared Junior was running with a piano strapped to his back.

princeton
04-01-2008, 09:48 AM
Put him in the bullpen or whatever


:thumbup:

smith288
04-01-2008, 10:10 AM
Why does it take one time for it "never to happen again"?? Why can't these ball players just hustle like they are supposed to?? Man i long to play baseball like I did in high school and hustled whenever the bat hit the ball...

bucksfan2
04-01-2008, 10:32 AM
Its the freakin first game of the season. I can live with mistakes if you are too jacked up. I can live with batters swinging a little too hard or getting thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double or Ryan Freel type mistakes on the first day of the season. What I can't live with is laziness. Hatty not running on a dropped thrid strike, there was another guy who did that as well, Valentine not running out of the box on the first game of the season just is as poor as it gets.

princeton
04-01-2008, 10:39 AM
Why does it take one time for it "never to happen again"??

ten pounds of flesh

Blitz Dorsey
04-01-2008, 10:54 AM
Valentin is just a bad all-around player. Terrible defensively and now he's posing on balls that short-hop the wall? But it's not his fault the front office was unable to find a real catcher this offseason. Ross won't be much better when he returns.

buckeyenut
04-01-2008, 11:14 AM
Its the freakin first game of the season. I can live with mistakes if you are too jacked up. I can live with batters swinging a little too hard or getting thrown out trying to stretch a single into a double or Ryan Freel type mistakes on the first day of the season. What I can't live with is laziness. Hatty not running on a dropped thrid strike, there was another guy who did that as well, Valentine not running out of the box on the first game of the season just is as poor as it gets.

You can't seriously think that was laziness, can you? That wasn't laziness. That was showboating because he thought it was gone. It was standing there admiring his work and it was very disappointing. But it wasn't lazy.

Blitz Dorsey
04-01-2008, 11:23 AM
I think it was laziness/showboating. Javy is not a hustler to begin with (so there's the lazy part) and he has learned from some of the best in the game (Griffey, Dunn) on how to turn a double into a long single by standing in the box and showboating.

Ah, one game into the season and I'm already ticked off about our catching situation. But Dave Ross is on his way to save the day! Well, if he can stay off the Interstate for the majority of the season unlike last year.

bucksfan2
04-01-2008, 11:46 AM
You can't seriously think that was laziness, can you? That wasn't laziness. That was showboating because he thought it was gone. It was standing there admiring his work and it was very disappointing. But it wasn't lazy.

To some extent yes it is laziness. Javy has a swing in which he ends up falling back throught contact. He needs to excelerate that first step to compensate for that move. I don't look for him to beat out an infield single but yesterday was unacceptable. To be honest Javy could have cost the team 2 runs. A leadoff double and the wild pitch that lead to the run.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-01-2008, 11:59 AM
I didn't see the play, but I wonder even if Javy busts tail getting out of the box, does he make it to 2nd? Just curious how cleanly the ball was handled out there by Upton, because Javy is pretty slow and as bucksfan pointed out, he's already falling backward when he swings.

jojo
04-01-2008, 12:06 PM
An apology from Javey? Absolutely. Here are Redzones' terms. Lower your flags, and march straight back to the dugout, stopping at every home to beg forgiveness for 100 years of theft, rape, and murder. Do that and your men shall live. Do it not, and every one of you will die today. I'm not finished. Before we let you leave, your commander must cross that field, present himself before this team, put his head between his legs, and kiss his own arse.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/horse.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Blitz Dorsey
04-01-2008, 12:36 PM
I didn't see the play, but I wonder even if Javy busts tail getting out of the box, does he make it to 2nd? Just curious how cleanly the ball was handled out there by Upton, because Javy is pretty slow and as bucksfan pointed out, he's already falling backward when he swings.

Oh yeah, he would have made it. Even if he was running at "almost" full speed he would have made it. In fact, even after his ridiculous pose at the plate (on a ball that wasn't even THAT close to going out of a little bandbox of a park) I thought he still had a chance at the double.

One game into the season and we're seeing more of the same. Bad defense, bad/lazy baserunning, same staples of last year. Harang had the exact same stats as Webb except Harang got the L and Webb got the W.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-01-2008, 12:42 PM
Oh yeah, he would have made it. Even if he was running at "almost" full speed he would have made it. In fact, even after his ridiculous pose at the plate (on a ball that wasn't even THAT close to going out of a little bandbox of a park) I thought he still had a chance at the double.

One game into the season and we're seeing more of the same. Bad defense, bad/lazy baserunning, same staples of last year. Harang had the exact same stats as Webb except Harang got the L and Webb got the W.

Thanks for the info. That's too bad.

When Ross gets back, I'd like to see Javy gone. Not because of this particular goof, but because Javy's not very good.

Of course, they have 1.375M reasons to keep him around, but they did eat the contract on Stanton, so one can only hope.

Chip R
04-01-2008, 12:51 PM
Thanks for the info. That's too bad.

When Ross gets back, I'd like to see Javy gone. Not because of this particular goof, but because Javy's not very good.

Of course, they have 1.375M reasons to keep him around, but they did eat the contract on Stanton, so one can only hope.


This ownership group is definitely less cheap than the previous ones but just because they ate one contract doesn't mean they are going to start eating several of them.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-01-2008, 01:04 PM
This ownership group is definitely less cheap than the previous ones but just because they ate one contract doesn't mean they are going to start eating several of them.

Wayne's thrown away a bit on money on contracts to Cormier, Stanton, Castro, and Valentin. The jury is also out on the Ross and Freel deals.

I would think if this club struggles in '08 these alone may do him in.

I do give Wayne credit for the Harang contract. That was a good one.

Chip R
04-01-2008, 01:22 PM
Wayne's thrown away a bit on money on contracts to Cormier, Stanton, Castro, and Valentin. The jury is also out on the Ross and Freel deals.

I would think if this club struggles in '08 these alone may do him in.

I do give Wayne credit for the Harang contract. That was a good one.


True. But consensus around here says he should get rid of Stanton, Castro and now Valentin. He got rid of Stanton, and that was great. But I'm guessing ownership isn't going to want to do that to all the guys who should not be on the team. Perhaps they are letting Wayne choose the 1 guy he can dump and that guy was Stanton. But too many of these can do a GM in.

I'm not going to throw Javy under the bus for one mistake like so many others are. If you get rid of him, now you have Bako and he can't hit water if he fell out of a boat. None of them are any great shakes but as a pinch hitter and occassional starter he is more than passable.

RichRed
04-01-2008, 01:26 PM
For me, it comes down to: You're Javy Freakin' Valentin. What are you posing for?

In the immortal words of Crash Davis, "Run, dummy!"

redsmetz
04-01-2008, 02:04 PM
For me, it comes down to: You're Javy Freakin' Valentin. What are you posing for?

In the immortal words of Crash Davis, "Run, dummy!"

LOL - absolutely.

Was it also Valentin who had his back to the play walking back to first when the ball was overthrown at second?

That's the sort of day it was.

Next game, please.

bucksfan2
04-01-2008, 02:16 PM
True. But consensus around here says he should get rid of Stanton, Castro and now Valentin. He got rid of Stanton, and that was great. But I'm guessing ownership isn't going to want to do that to all the guys who should not be on the team. Perhaps they are letting Wayne choose the 1 guy he can dump and that guy was Stanton. But too many of these can do a GM in.

I'm not going to throw Javy under the bus for one mistake like so many others are. If you get rid of him, now you have Bako and he can't hit water if he fell out of a boat. None of them are any great shakes but as a pinch hitter and occassional starter he is more than passable.

I am going to throw Javy under the bus for this one. It was the first game of the season. It wasn't a game in the middle of July or August. It wasn't a game where it was unbearable hot. It wasn't a game in which he was tired or banged up. It was opening day in Cincinnati.

I am all for Bako starting over Valentine. I want a starting catcher to be good defensively first and formost. I don't really care what he does at the plate. There have been numerous times that Valentine has caught and he and the pitcher haven't been on the same page. I wonder what the pitcher thinks when a breaking ball in the dirt is called and you wonder if Valentine can stop the ball.

I may be over reacting but if Valentine starts tomorrow I will be upset. I don't mind mental errors but mental errors on the first day of the season just can't happen.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-01-2008, 02:27 PM
I was all for thowing him under the bus (eating his contract) before the season started.

Team Clark
04-01-2008, 02:44 PM
You all are missing the main point!! The Reds have a Catcher who ACTUALLY got a HIT!!

RedlegJake
04-01-2008, 02:50 PM
Shades of Lombardi - singles off the wall! Of course, Schnozz wasn't admiring his hits when it happened to him. Plus he hit about a hundred points higher every year. Plus he was a good catcher. Plus he lacked a ridiculous mustache to highlight his prominent probiscous. I don't really blame Valentin, he was just Jav-dogging it.

TeamBoone
04-01-2008, 04:08 PM
What I can't live with is laziness. Hatty not running on a dropped thrid strike, there was another guy who did that as well, Valentine not running out of the box on the first game of the season just is as poor as it gets.

It was Edwin. I commented on it to my daughter at the time.

LINEDRIVER
04-01-2008, 07:23 PM
The good thing about Javy looking like a goof this early is that Dusty is seeing it for himself and his playing time as a catcher will decrease over time.

I am a very big supporter of using Valentin as a cathcer ONLY in emergency situations. In fact, I got quite a thrill from the verbal abuse Javy has been getting from Marty & Jeff lately. I wish I knew when they were going to throw darts again so that I could have both hands firmly on my steering wheel. Though I loved every second of it, I damn near drove off the road while listening to M & J bash Valentin during the Reds/Phillies game on Tuesday of last week, March 25th.

Here's excerpts from that conversation I took from the audio between Mary & Jeff. I deleted out the play-by-play that was intertwined in these comments.

Marty: Volquez taking too much time to get the sign from Javier Valentin and Burrell backs away from the plate.

Jeff: And that has happened much too often with Valentin behind the plate.

Marty:Hmm-huh.

Jeff: He doesn’t have himself ready to go behind home plate and the pitch that he wants to put down for the pitcher. The catcher as well as the pitcher has to think one pitch ahead and has to have an idea of what he’s going to put down, just not throw down signs and hope the pitcher selects one.

Marty: Interesting conversation with Dusty Baker today. I asked him do you ever call pitches from the dugout. He said absolutely not. So in other words, your catcher is your guy. He said that’s right and the one thing I try to print indelibly in the mind of the catcher and in the mind of the pitcher is, when you are trying to make the determination of what pitch you are going to ask that pitcher to throw…is the risk worth the gain? That’s a simple statement. Is the risk worth the gain? But he said I never call pitches. Who do you think he said was the best catcher he ever had? Like a second manager on the field.

Jeff: I would not know. He’s had a few good ones over there.

Marty: Kurt Manwaring. He said..absolutely the best.

Jeff: That would fit right in my book.

Marty: He said he was so good it was unbelievable.

Jeff: When you watch Javier Valentin behind home plate, he does not even get is mitt up in a position of target until the pitcher is almost three-quarters of the way thru his delivery.

Marty: Somethin’ wrong with that.

Jeff: That is lazy.

Marty: Hmm-huh.

Jeff: You watch Edinson Volquez, as soon as he lets go of the baseball he’s ready to throw the next pitch. He would like to work a little bit faster than he’s getting a chance to work right now.

Marty: And again, the falls on the shoulders of the catcher.

Jeff: That’s right.

Marty: If you have a pitcher that likes to work quickly, you as a catcher have to adapt to that and make him comfortable on the mound.

Jeff: And I don’t, I don’t want to beat up Javier Valentin behind home plate, but it just goes to show you that the Reds definitely have a catching issue, and it is not a good one right now.


On OPENING DAY, Jeff made more remarks regarding Harang's wild pitch and Valentin.

Since I did not record the audio, I am paraphrasing here.

Jeff: That might go down as a wild pitch, but that ball went right thru Valentin's legs. If you are a major league catcher, you've got to catch that ball. Any number one catcher in the major leagues catches that ball.
.

GAC
04-01-2008, 08:24 PM
This is one situation where I'm glad Javier didn't hustle. :lol:

He would have been OUT at 2B! Nailed IMHO.

Any other player, with some expectation of speed could have gotten a double; but no way with Javier (that rhymes). Even if he had "hustled" out of the batter box. The fielder played it perfectly and got the ball back in. Javier should be thankful for the single. ;)

WMR
04-01-2008, 11:25 PM
That passed ball is what pissed me off. A real shame he didn't get an error for that "display" of fielding. Just inexcusably sloppy, lazy, ugly catching.

RFS62
04-02-2008, 12:08 AM
The passed ball was terrible, simply awful in that situation.

I don't think he could have made it to second base on the single off the wall had he been hustling. But he looked bad either way.

I'm not a fan of the posing.

remdog
04-02-2008, 12:35 AM
no way with Javier (that rhymes).

Not in California where people pronounce the name as Havy-air. :)


Even if he had "hustled" out of the batter box. The fielder played it perfectly and got the ball back in. Javier should be thankful for the single. ;)

Right. A milli-second more pose time and Javy has a tough time not getting thrown out at first. :lol:

No excuse for JV to pose though. His career has proven that he should be running out every AB.

The ump will let you know if it's OK to break out the trot.

And that goes for Jr., AD, and every other warm body on this team.

Rem

bucksfan2
04-02-2008, 08:34 AM
This is one situation where I'm glad Javier didn't hustle. :lol:

He would have been OUT at 2B! Nailed IMHO.

Any other player, with some expectation of speed could have gotten a double; but no way with Javier (that rhymes). Even if he had "hustled" out of the batter box. The fielder played it perfectly and got the ball back in. Javier should be thankful for the single. ;)

He would have been safe, by a good distance. The throw that went into second air mailed the second baseman. It really comes down to playing the game the right way. A one hopper off the wall and you add in a saturated playing field, I dont care if you are on crutches, you test that outfielders arm in that situation.

37red
04-02-2008, 02:42 PM
Gac is right. I think he should have hustled out of the box but the outfielder played it perfectly and Javier would have had to stop. If the throw to second was good, which he expected, he's at best been caught between bases.

redsmetz
04-02-2008, 02:57 PM
Gac is right. I think he should have hustled out of the box but the outfielder played it perfectly and Javier would have had to stop. If the throw to second was good, which he expected, he's at best been caught between bases.

Perhaps that was an equally grievous error - Javier was just walking back to first with his back to the play. If he'd have rounded the base and kept his eye on the play in front of him, he most likely could have advanced to second. That's textbook, the posing notwithstanding.