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View Full Version : BAD Managing By Dusty



TheBigLebowski
04-02-2008, 11:33 PM
Bot 9, runners on 1st and 2nd and EdE up. Reds down by 1. Dusty has EdE BUNT. EdE has never laid down a successful bunt in his entire career and looked clueless trying. If Dusty wanted a bunt he needed to PH for EdE. Of course, once he let Mr. Clutch swing away he won the game.

Rounding Third
04-02-2008, 11:38 PM
I was really upset about him trying to make him bunt. I kept thinking, "boy I hope that he gets 2 strikes and swings away from a base hit." I wasn't expecting a home run, but that was great!

NorrisHopper30
04-02-2008, 11:50 PM
Bot 9, runners on 1st and 2nd and EdE up. Reds down by 1. Dusty has EdE BUNT. EdE has never laid down a successful bunt in his entire career and looked clueless trying. If Dusty wanted a bunt he needed to PH for EdE. Of course, once he let Mr. Clutch swing away he won the game.

Maybe it was part of the strategy?
:D

But in all seriousness, do we have to complain after a win? Chris almighty..

Lockdwn11
04-02-2008, 11:52 PM
I was wondering how long it would take someone to start a thread like this . The Reds was actually down by two runs and Dusty Baker was trying to move the tieing run into scoring position for a young guy by the name of Joey Votto who just smoked the last pitch he saw back up the middle for a base hit . Is that the wrong move? I would say IMHO it is with Edwin at the plate but it's just that a opinion ( alot of managers would have done the same thing) but don't worry I'm sure you can fine something in tomrrows game to bash Dusty about.

Mutaman
04-02-2008, 11:54 PM
C Trent:

Dusty said: "I turned to (bench coach) Chris (Speier) and said, 'Chris, I kinda hope he doesn't get it down here so he can hit a 3-run homer.'"

Dusty is now .500 which is better than any other manager we've had here in the last 7 years.

I think one year ago, Stanton and Majewski would have given up 3 runs in the top of the 9th and we would have lost 8-6. Boy, if Merker can stay healthy, we might have a real nice bull pen.

mroby85
04-02-2008, 11:57 PM
I LOVE the emotion you see from dusty in the dugout, thats what this team has been missing, it wasn't the talent, it was the desire to win in my opinion. I have no idea why you guys have to be so down after such a great game. I'm Pumped!
we split against webb n haren, with the opportunity to take the rubber game with cueto tomorrow. things are good in reds land imo.

Mutaman
04-02-2008, 11:59 PM
I it wasn't the talent, it was the desire to win in my opinion.

No, it was the talent.

big boy
04-02-2008, 11:59 PM
On managing:
Bad-Sacrifice bunt with EE. Down 2, bad idea with most anybody up but especially EE.
Good-Sticking with his relievers. He let Coffey and Affeldt finish their innings. The last couple managers would have had 4 or 5 other relievers in the game.

Lockdwn11
04-03-2008, 12:06 AM
On the other hand what was Dusty thinking trying to put the tieing run in scoring position for Joey Votto a %*&# Rookie for god sakes!!!! We all know Dusty HATES young players. :rolleyes:

mroby85
04-03-2008, 12:19 AM
On the other hand what was Dusty thinking trying to put the tieing run in scoring position for Joey Votto a %*&# Rookie for god sakes!!!! We all know Dusty HATES young players. :rolleyes:

haha i love it. no matter what dusty does, he's going to be hated on.

jlb1705
04-03-2008, 12:23 AM
C Trent:

Dusty said: "I turned to (bench coach) Chris (Speier) and said, 'Chris, I kinda hope he doesn't get it down here so he can hit a 3-run homer.'"

If that's the case, why bother going through the motions of making him bunt? Because that's how you "play the game the right way"? Sure, in perfect world Encarnacion would be a competent bunter. Dusty apparently knew he wasn't though, and decided to have him do it anyway. He really put Encarnacion in a tough position by putting him into a pitcher's count, and on the precipice of making a crucial out. I'm glad Edwin was able to overcome it and hit the game-winner.

mroby85
04-03-2008, 12:32 AM
he actually put edwin in an easy situation to build some confidence in my opinion. if you're a major league player you should be able to get a bunt down fairly easily. Good news for us is, his failure also turned into his success.

Lockdwn11
04-03-2008, 12:33 AM
If that's the case, why bother going through the motions of making him bunt? Because that's how you "play the game the right way"? Sure, in perfect world Encarnacion would be a competent bunter. Dusty apparently knew he wasn't though, and decided to have him do it anyway. He really put Encarnacion in a tough position by putting him into a pitcher's count, and on the precipice of making a crucial out. I'm glad Edwin was able to overcome it and hit the game-winner.


haha i love it. no matter what dusty does, he's going to be hated on.

nm sorry

Lockdwn11
04-03-2008, 12:35 AM
haha i love it. no matter what dusty does, he's going to be hated on.

I was trying to be sarcastic there mroby

Blue
04-03-2008, 12:38 AM
C Trent:

Dusty said: "I turned to (bench coach) Chris (Speier) and said, 'Chris, I kinda hope he doesn't get it down here so he can hit a 3-run homer.'"



I don't think some of the subsequent posters realize that Dusty was making a joke here.

mroby85
04-03-2008, 12:41 AM
I was trying to be sarcastic there mroby

i knew you were being sarcastic, i was saying i loved your comment. and continued to say no matter what dusty does he will be hated on.

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2008, 01:07 AM
It was bad managing. Simple as that.

I wish it was as simple as "We won! Edwin hit a homer! All's well!"

Fact is, Dusty wanted to take the bat out of one of our best clutch hitter's hands essentially and make him do something he has never successfully done in his career - lay down a sac bunt.

If Dusty wanted to get the game to Votto so badly he would have put someone else in to lay down the sac. It was sooo obvious that EdE had no idea how to lay down that bunt it wasn't even funny.

Just because EdE stunk so bad at doing what Dusty wanted him to do that he actually got a chance to swing the bat does not excuse Dusty. I have never been a critic of his hiring. Still, this decision, made at a critical point in the game, was bad. No ifs ands or buts.

Newman4
04-03-2008, 01:10 AM
I can see the logic either way (bunt the runners over or let the batter swing away). For the Dusty haters, you'll get more chances as the season progresses. As for this one, you need to pick your battles better. A LOT of managers would have bunted the runners over, not just Dusty. I do like Dusty's emotion though with dealing with player incompetence. You have to raise the bar a little to get results.

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2008, 01:13 AM
I can see the logic either way (bunt the runners over or let the batter swing away). For the Dusty haters, you'll get more chances as the season progresses. As for this one, you need to pick your battles better. A LOT of managers would have bunted the runners over, not just Dusty. I do like Dusty's emotion though with incompetence. You have to raise the bar a little to get results.

Fine. Bunt the runners over. Not a bad idea. However, you gotta know your players' abilities better as a manager. If he wanted a sac bunt he needed to pinch-hit for EdE and put someone in who could lay down the bunt.

Once again - I am NOT a Dusty hater. I just hated that call.

redsupport
04-03-2008, 01:16 AM
Dusty is a moron, he does no tbelieve in Math opr statistics, that is called typical Americana which is why we are last or next to last in civilized countries in Math and Science. He has "feelings" whatever that is

ChatterRed
04-03-2008, 01:20 AM
If that's the case, why bother going through the motions of making him bunt? Because that's how you "play the game the right way"? Sure, in perfect world Encarnacion would be a competent bunter. Dusty apparently knew he wasn't though, and decided to have him do it anyway. He really put Encarnacion in a tough position by putting him into a pitcher's count, and on the precipice of making a crucial out. I'm glad Edwin was able to overcome it and hit the game-winner.


Because the pitcher will throw a fastball when he thinks a hitter is bunting.

EE is a dead-on fastball hitter.

I hate Dusty, but I think there might be some truth to this.

757690
04-03-2008, 02:40 AM
The most obvious fact that everyone is overlooking was that before that swing, EE was swinging the bat terribly. He was in terrible slump all spring long, and had not had good at bats in the first two games until that homer. He had struck out looking in his last at bat, and looked like he had no idea what he was doing at the plate.

I could give a flying fig what his numbers were last year with RISP, until that at bat, he was in a bad, bad funk, so bad that both the ORG and the Sundeck had threads about sending him down to AAA. I would have had him bunt, but only because I had no confidence in him at, and there was plenty of reasons for me to have no confidence in him. A very smart thing to do with a player who is slumping is to have him bunt, so he can feel like he accomplished something and build his confidence. Dusty's quotes back up that this is what he was thinking. From Fay:

"You can't let him swing in that situation," Baker said. "He was struggling."

People say you don't want to give up outs, but when a guy is in the funk that EE was in, I think letting him swing away is giving up an out, and an unproductive one at that. It is easy to say knowing that he hit the homer that you should let him swing away, but seriously, how many people on his board thought he was going to get a hit in that at bat, and how many were thinking when he came up, "Crap, two men on, and EE has to bat." I have a feeling it was overwhelming the latter.

The debate that Cowboy and Thom were having, was not whether or not to have him swing away or bunt, but rather, do you have him bunt, or do you pinch hit for him.


That all being said, nearly any other hitter, I would have him swing away, but mostly because it was clear that Lyons had nothing tonight. I would bet that if EE had gotten the bunt down, Votto would have driven them in.

texasdave
04-03-2008, 02:55 AM
If you believe in the adage that you play for the tie at home and the win on the road, then Dusty's decision to have EdE bunt was a sound one. This is a link to a Run Frequency Matrix by Tangotiger. And this guys knows quite a bit about sabermetrics.
http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902score.html

The RFM shows the likelihood of scoring a given amount of runs in a given inning under every out/baserunner situation.

For example if there are two outs and nobody on base the likelihood of scoring 0 runs is .923 (or 92.3%). In other words it is highly likely that a team isn't scoring any runs with two down and nobody on.

Now let's take a look at what effect a successful sacrifice bunt would have had.

The chart tells us that with runners on first and second and no outs a team scores two runs .165 (or 16.5%) of the time. A successful sacrifice bunt would have left the runners on second and third with one out. In that given situation a team can expect to score two runs .218 (or 21.8%) of the time.

Yes, statistically the Reds stood a greater chance of moving the game into extra innings with Edwin laying down a successful sacrifice bunt rather than by hitting away.

And the argument that EdE shouldn't be asked to bunt because he can't bunt holds no water. That a professional hitter with almost 2 1/2 years in the big leagues can't be expected to lay down a simple sacrifice bunt is farcical. Edwin knew he couldn't bunt last year. He should have worked hard to acquire that particular skill. Obviously the more skills a player possesses the more that player can help his team win games. Is Edwin too good to learn a skill that, as we have just seen, can help his team win games? I think not.

But hey, Edwin went deep and life is a bowl of cherries. Well at least until the next time that situation arises.

fielder's choice
04-03-2008, 03:25 AM
Good post; I know people around here hate bunting, and I do too in a lot of situations, but it was the right call if were going for the tie. Almost anytime a team has the tying run on 1st with no outs in the 9th, they are going to bunt.

757690
04-03-2008, 03:27 AM
If you believe in the adage that you play for the tie at home and the win on the road, then Dusty's decision to have EdE bunt was a sound one. This is a link to a Run Frequency Matrix by Tangotiger. And this guys knows quite a bit about sabermetrics.
http://www.tangotiger.net/RE9902score.html

The RFM shows the likelihood of scoring a given amount of runs in a given inning under every out/baserunner situation.

For example if there are two outs and nobody on base the likelihood of scoring 0 runs is .923 (or 92.3%). In other words it is highly likely that a team isn't scoring any runs with two down and nobody on.

Now let's take a look at what effect a successful sacrifice bunt would have had.

The chart tells us that with runners on first and second and no outs a team scores two runs .165 (or 16.5%) of the time. A successful sacrifice bunt would have left the runners on second and third with one out. In that given situation a team can expect to score two runs .218 (or 21.8%) of the time.

Yes, statistically the Reds stood a greater chance of moving the game into extra innings with Edwin laying down a successful sacrifice bunt rather than by hitting away.

And the argument that EdE shouldn't be asked to bunt because he can't bunt holds no water. That a professional hitter with almost 2 1/2 years in the big leagues can't be expected to lay down a simple sacrifice bunt is farcical. Edwin knew he couldn't bunt last year. He should have worked hard to acquire that particular skill. Obviously the more skills a player possesses the more that player can help his team win games. Is Edwin too good to learn a skill that, as we have just seen, can help his team win games? I think not.

But hey, Edwin went deep and life is a bowl of cherries. Well at least until the next time that situation arises.

Wow, how about that, you are right, if those stats are accurate, and tangotiger's usually are, then they clearly show that you will score two runs more often if you bunt than if you let him swing away.

However, the other side will say that this chart also shows that a team will score three runs, slightly more often if you let him swing away (.127 to .101). But that is a very slight edge, 2%, and around half as likely to happen as scoring two runs. Given the situation of the game: Reds home game; D-Backs had used their best relievers while the Reds had their closer and set up men available, it makes sense to go for the tie. That tiny 2% advantage of getting three runs pales in comparison to the huge advantage the Reds would have had to score one more run after the tie.

Great job TexasDave! :thumbup:

BLEEDS
04-03-2008, 08:18 AM
I was wondering how long it would take someone to start a thread like this . The Reds was actually down by two runs and Dusty Baker was trying to move the tieing run into scoring position for a young guy by the name of Joey Votto who just smoked the last pitch he saw back up the middle for a base hit . Is that the wrong move? I would say IMHO it is with Edwin at the plate but it's just that a opinion ( alot of managers would have done the same thing) but don't worry I'm sure you can fine something in tomrrows game to bash Dusty about.

Only problem with that move is, they would 100% GUARANTEED walk Joey Votto, to load the bases for the DP/forceout/etc...

Then you're looking at Paul Bako to get them in.

AND, then everyone would complaing that Votto "took" the Walk, just like his mentor Adam Dunn:p:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

GoReds33
04-03-2008, 08:33 AM
All I can say is that the Reds won the game. If Dusty doesn't coach well, and we still win, I can't complain. It's not all about Dusty's coaching, it's about the clubhouse presence, and the respect the players show him.

texasdave
04-03-2008, 09:36 AM
Good point about the Reds having the top of their bullpen still ready to go, while the Snakes had pretty much burned theirs. Advantage Reds I have to believe.

A couple further points to consider. Edwin had a miserable spring with the stick and so far in five official trips to the plate had struck out three times and failed to get the ball out of the infield on the other two. Up until the blast he wasn't exactly swinging a hot stick. I am sure that was a consideration. If Encarnacion had been on a roll at the plate maybe Dusty lets him swing away.

To counter the argument that, if agreeing a bunt was necessary, Dusty should have pinch hit for EdE, I would suggest that since Dusty was playing for the tie he wanted Edwin in the game in extra innings. You don't want to burn a player in that situation. Every major league regular hitter should be able to move the runners along in that situation most of the time. It is not that difficult. If you have the hand-eye coordination to be a decent big league hitter - which Edwin clearly does - then you should be able to lay one down if the manager thinks it is called for.

Now if Dusty is playing for the win in that situation by all means send up someone else to bat for Edwin if you feel he can't do the job.

There are tons of variables to consider and a manager doesn't have to luxury of time to sit back and reflect. Many decisions have to be made on the fly. All managers will get some wrong. But the many variables, the game within the game, is what makes the baseball so interesting. At least for me. Fans get to think things through and discuss situations. I like that. :thumbup:

757690
04-03-2008, 05:52 PM
Only problem with that move is, they would 100% GUARANTEED walk Joey Votto, to load the bases for the DP/forceout/etc...

Then you're looking at Paul Bako to get them in.

AND, then everyone would complaing that Votto "took" the Walk, just like his mentor Adam Dunn:p:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

In that situation, Valentin, probably the Reds best clutch hitter, would have pinch hit for Bako. Base loaded, one out, Javy at the plate is a situation you want to be in.

Lockdwn11
04-03-2008, 06:05 PM
In that situation, Valentin, probably the Reds best clutch hitter, would have pinch hit for Bako. Base loaded, one out, Javy at the plate is a situation you want to be in.

That would have been my thoughts.

K-GAR
04-03-2008, 06:41 PM
this was not bad managing by dusty, this was bad baseball by edwin, bunting is as easy as catching, the only difference is you catch the ball with the bat instead of a glove.

Dusty made the right call, down two runs:

runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1st and 2nd with none.

That is how winning baseball is played, not playing for the three run-homer, we got lucky by getting the homer, but i guarantee you more often than not, we don't score any runs if we don't bunt

Va Red Fan
04-03-2008, 06:44 PM
It worked - wew won. End of discussion.

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2008, 06:58 PM
I want to make this clear, yet again, as it seems many people are missing my point:

I am not saying that bunting was the wrong call. I also do not think letting a batter like EdE swing away in a situation like that is a bad call. One can make a cogent argument defending either decision. I am not criticizing either.

My problem was with Dusty having EdE bunt. For whatever reason, it's a skill he does not possess. If Dusty wanted to bunt there he either needed to PH for EdE or just let him swing away. I have never seen anyone look quite as awkward trying to bunt as EdE.

bubbachunk
04-03-2008, 07:38 PM
Dusty did the right thing. What if Edwin hits into a DP and Dusty never puts a bunt on? Then you ridicule him for being an idiot for not moving the runners over. Quit looking for something to whine about and just enjoy the win, dear god....

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2008, 07:39 PM
Dusty did the right thing. What if Edwin hits into a DP and Dusty never puts a bunt on? Then you ridicule him for being an idiot for not moving the runners over. Quit looking for something to whine about and just enjoy the win, dear god....

Please...PLEASE read the post immediately preceding yours and read it carefully.

bubbachunk
04-03-2008, 07:41 PM
Please...PLEASE read the post immediately preceding yours and read it carefully.

He is a baseball player! Not all pitchers "posses" the skill to bunt but they are still asked to. You are talking like Dusty asked to kid to run through a brick wall. If he struggles bunting he should work on it more because it should be a given trait for a major leaguer.

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2008, 07:51 PM
He is a baseball player! Not all pitchers "posses" the skill to bunt but they are still asked to. You are talking like Dusty asked to kid to run through a brick wall. If he struggles bunting he should work on it more because it should be a given trait for a major leaguer.

Completely agree that he should work on it more. He also needs to improve the accuracy of his throws. My point is that he was not the best person to have sacrificing in a critical situation. That's ALL. Not that EdE shouldn't have to worry about bunting. Not that the call to sacrifice in that situation was necessarily the wrong one. Not that Dusty is a bad manager.

bubbachunk
04-03-2008, 07:53 PM
Completely agree that he should work on it more. He also needs to improve the accuracy of his throws. My point is that he was not the best person to have sacrificing in a critical situation. That's ALL. Not that EdE shouldn't have to worry about bunting. Not that the call to sacrifice in that situation was necessarily the wrong one. Not that Dusty is a bad manager.

And my point is no matter who is up in that situation you make the same call every time it is hands down the smart play. You cannot blame any manager for that.

K-GAR
04-03-2008, 07:58 PM
bunting is A LOT more of a part of being a good baseball player than it is a skill. Just taking a few reps to lay a few down during BP is enough for someone as talented as EDE to be able to simply put one down, this is not a strategically placed drag bunt, just put it on the turf and he's done his job. bunting is a lot like the 15 foot jumper in basketball, it's a lost art because nobody works at it AT ALL. Every major leaguer should have ZERO problem laying down a bunt.

LouisvilleCARDS
04-03-2008, 08:34 PM
Hindsight is 20/20. If he went up swinging and struck out, and then couldn't get the runners over the next two AB's, people would have said we should have bunted and it was bad managing to not to try to get the runners over. Everyone is a backseat manager here, what else is new? We won though, thats all that matters.

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2008, 08:37 PM
Hindsight is 20/20. If he went up swinging and struck out, and then couldn't get the runners over the next two AB's, people would have said we should have bunted and it was bad managing to not to try to get the runners over. Everyone is a backseat manager here, what else is new? We won though, thats all that matters.

lol...I give.

Kingspoint
04-03-2008, 08:54 PM
When is Hopper going to start? Is Dusty afraid he'll be proven wrong?

Kingspoint
04-03-2008, 08:57 PM
11,987 announced attendance for Cueto's debut?

Are there no baseball fans in Cincinnati?

TheBigLebowski
04-03-2008, 10:50 PM
11,987 announced attendance for Cueto's debut?

Are there no baseball fans in Cincinnati?

The fan turnout has been very poor thus far. Very disappointing.

mroby85
04-03-2008, 11:28 PM
some people need to realize there is waaaay more to the game than statistics. managers deal with REAL people, and set REAL atmospheres in clubhouses that can make a team better or worse. it's not all about stats on a sheet.

IowaRed
04-03-2008, 11:57 PM
some people need to realize there is waaaay more to the game than statistics. managers deal with REAL people, and set REAL atmospheres in clubhouses that can make a team better or worse. it's not all about stats on a sheet.

a good manager knows his players and their strengths and weaknesses, if he doesn't know them then he should be smart enough to surround himself with people who do. Asking somebody to sacrifice, who has never had a successful sacrifice in their career is not putting a player and therefore the team in the best position to be successful. If he REALLY wanted a bunt there he should have pinch hit Castro. I know, I know all major leaguers should be able to bunt but the obvious fact is that some can't or at least can't very well. EE is one of them and the manager of the team should know that.

Just curious-(remembering he had never been successful in his career at this) before the 1st pitch to EE, what do you think the odds were of him getting down a successful sac. bunt? I let him swing away, yesterday, today and tomorrow.

BurgervilleBuck
04-04-2008, 12:35 PM
But in all seriousness, do we have to complain after a win? Chris almighty..
Then don't go near AOL Sports Fanhouse blogs (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/04/03/dusty-predicted-encarnacions-homer-despite-calling-for-the-bun/). They've got a hate on for Dusty like you wouldn't believe.