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View Full Version : Bobby Cox, the ultimate micro-manager?



Caveat Emperor
04-03-2008, 10:21 PM
Catching tonight for the Atlanta Braves.

He just allowed his second passed ball of the evening to give the Pirates 1st and 3rd with 1 out in the top of the 10th (game is tied).

Another Reds "catcher of the future" that simply refused to pan out (see: Sardinha, Dane and Perez, Miguel).

Caveat Emperor
04-03-2008, 10:29 PM
Incidentally -- watching this game on EI -- the Braves had Chris Resop on the mound in the 10th. Cox came out and put in a lefty specialist in to face Adam LaRoche and sent Resop out to play left field. Then, after LaRoche struck out, they took Resop out of left field and put him back on the mound.

Bobby Cox, new super-genius?

reds44
04-03-2008, 10:30 PM
Incidentally -- watching this game on EI -- the Braves had Chris Resop on the mound in the 10th. Cox came out and put in a lefty specialist in to face Adam LaRoche and sent Resop out to play left field. Then, after LaRoche struck out, they took Resop out of left field and put him back on the mound.

Bobby Cox, new super-genius?
Nady just drove in the go ahead run, so it really didn't work out. However, I have never seen that before.

*BaseClogger*
04-03-2008, 10:31 PM
That was truly awesome. Didn't work, but cool... :cool:

Caveat Emperor
04-03-2008, 10:34 PM
Nady just drove in the go ahead run, so it really didn't work out. However, I have never seen that before.

If the Reds had a LOOGY, you could really have some fun with that kind of strategy...

LOOGY to P
Burton/Weathers to LF
Dunn to 1B

then

Burton/Weathers back to P
Dunn back to LF
Votto/Hatteberg into 1B

LINEDRIVER
04-03-2008, 10:46 PM
AUGUST 31, 1968 … Pirates’ starting pitcher Steve Blass gets the first out of the game against Braves’ centerfielder Felipe Alou before moving to LF to replace Carl Taylor. Pittsburgh manager Larry Shepard calls on longtime reliever Elroy Face to enter the game. Face retires Felix Millan and ties Walter Johnson's major-league record of 802 pitching appearances with one team. Face leaves the game, Manny Mota moves from RF to LF, Roberto Clemente enters the game and goes to RF, Blass goes back to the pitching mound, and the Pirates go on to win 8–0. Late in the game, the Pirates announce the sale of Elroy Face to the Detroit Tigers. Blass will not get credit for another shutout though he still leads the NL with seven shutouts.

MAY 1, 1970...Reds' manager Sparky Anderson pulls a trick out of his hat when he calls for reliever Don Gullett to come into the game from the bullpen. Anderson wants the lefty Gullett to face the left-handed hitting Willie Stargell, one of the most feared hitters in baseball. Wanting to keep Granger in the game so he can face the next right-handed hitter, Anderson sends Granger to to play left field! (Don't ya think Granger is standing out there thinking,....please, please don't hit it to me) Gullett whiffs Stargell, the game is over, the Reds win 6-4.

Highlifeman21
04-03-2008, 10:55 PM
If the Reds had a LOOGY, you could really have some fun with that kind of strategy...

LOOGY to P
Burton/Weathers to LF
Dunn to 1B

then

Burton/Weathers back to P
Dunn back to LF
Votto/Hatteberg into 1B

Or if we could just get Dunn to play 1B everyday (like he should), then we could move Hatteberg and Votto for better pitching....

Just sayin....

HumnHilghtFreel
04-04-2008, 01:19 AM
I have a friend who's a Braves fan and gets frustrated with Cox for the way he handles the bullpen. He told me to check the box score tonight to cement why he hates it.



- C. Resop relieved R. Soriano
- N. Morgan hit for T. Yates
- N. Morgan walked
- L. Rivas sacrificed to pitcher, N. Morgan to second
- J. Bay walked, N. Morgan to third on passed ball
- R. Ring relieved C. Resop
- C. Resop in left field
- A. LaRoche struck out swinging
- G. Blanco in left field
- X. Nady singled to center, N. Morgan scored, J. Bay to second

When Blanco went to LF, Resop went back to the mound and subsequently lost them the game.

However, I don't think I can recall ever seeing a pitcher double switched into the field and going back to pitching later in the same inning. How often does this happen?

WMR
04-04-2008, 01:20 AM
Hold on, they took a pitcher, put him in the field, and then had him pitch?!?!

*BaseClogger*
04-04-2008, 01:23 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66838

HumnHilghtFreel
04-04-2008, 01:26 AM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66838

Ah, thanks.

pedro
04-04-2008, 01:33 AM
I lived in Atlanta from 1993-2003 and I followed the Braves pretty closely as I lived 3 miles from the park.

Bobby Cox would get destroyed on Redszone.

He's also a fabulous clubhouse guy and really astute scout. Probably the best "baseball man" of the last 30 years, maybe longer.

Even if he does most of the things we rag on Dusty for just about as often.

Nobody in the last 50 years has a comparable resume as a GM and a Manager.

(WOY, tell me I'm wrong now if you must.)

*BaseClogger*
04-04-2008, 01:37 AM
Didn't Coutlangus come up as a position player? He seems fit perfect for this as a LOOGY. Hmmm...

pedro
04-04-2008, 01:43 AM
Didn't Coutlangus come up as a position player? He seems fit perfect for this as a LOOGY. Hmmm...

Yes he did. He was a CF.

And it really is remarkable that he's had as much success this quickly as he has. But I'm just not sure that I'm not kinda happy about having Mercker instead. If the Reds really are going to go with a guy like Lincoln in the 8th, which is very telling to me this early in the season, I want some gray hair LH behind him, even after Stanton.

Patrick Bateman
04-04-2008, 01:49 AM
Or if we could just get Dunn to play 1B everyday (like he should), then we could move Hatteberg and Votto for better pitching....

Just sayin....

Yes, let's force a player that we want to keep long term to a position he has made clear he has no interest in playing.

In theory it's a fine idea, but players aren't robots. You make Dunn do something he doesn't want to do, and you run the risk of driving him out of Cincy.

pedro
04-04-2008, 02:14 AM
I saw him in person on Monday. He cut his purty locks.

The Braves have 3 catchers.

The humanity. ;)

princeton
04-04-2008, 05:23 AM
If the Reds had a LOOGY, you could really have some fun with that kind of strategy...


Coutlangus, who came up as an OFer, was the guy to do that with. Cout vs. the lefty, then into the OF while a RH specialist works, then bring Cout back.

maybe some team will pick up Cout and try it against the Reds... Cout vs Jr, then to the OF while BP bats, then back to the mound to face Dunn and Votto.

Asadoorian's a terrific CFer. One could work him the same way.

mth123
04-04-2008, 05:32 AM
Coutlangus, who came up as an OFer, was the guy to do that with. Cout vs. the lefty, then into the OF while a RH specialist works, then bring Cout back.

maybe some team will pick up Cout and try it against the Reds... Cout vs Jr, then to the OF while BP bats, then back to the mound to face Dunn and Votto.

Asadoorian's a terrific CFer. One could work him the same way.

Marcus McBeth started as an OF as well. They could just let McBeth and Coutlangus go back and forth for say the 7th and 8th inning and if the guy who isn't pitching plays in RF, it would improve the OF defense to boot.

redsmetz
04-04-2008, 05:40 AM
Incidentally -- watching this game on EI -- the Braves had Chris Resop on the mound in the 10th. Cox came out and put in a lefty specialist in to face Adam LaRoche and sent Resop out to play left field. Then, after LaRoche struck out, they took Resop out of left field and put him back on the mound.

Bobby Cox, new super-genius?

I saw a game many years ago, extra innings affair, between the Braves and the Cards, which in my memory I thought Whitey did that, but when I looked it up, I saw that it was a 19 inning game in which Jose Oquendo pitched four innings, got the loss (having almost gotten the win in the 18th) and pitcher Jose DeLeon played RF and LF, alternating with Tom Brunansky according to which side the batter hit from. P John Tudor pinch hit for DeLeon in the 19th too.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN198805140.shtml

I know I saw Herzog do that same thing Cox did last night in some other game, but I can't find that one. This one was easy to find because I just looked up Oquendo's pitching record.

camisadelgolf
04-04-2008, 06:31 AM
Jose Oquendo might have been the most over-paid play from 1992-5. He got paid $8.5MM over four years to put up a line of .228/.278/.295 in 203 games. That makes Juan Castro look, well, not quite as horrible.

redsmetz
04-04-2008, 07:09 AM
Jose Oquendo might have been the most overpaid play from 1992-5. He got paid $8.5MM over four years to put up a line of .228/.278/.295 in 203 games. That makes Juan Castro look, well, not quite as horrible.

I can't find the particulars, but it's clear that Oquendo was injured somewhere after signing that contract. He had become the regular 1989 and had seen less playing time the next two seasons. I'm not justifying the contract, but again, it's clear that he was playing through some injuries.

At his best, he was a valuable who could play all over the field; not unlike Ryan Freel the last few years. In retrospect, it's easy to see the contract didn't work out for the Redbirds, but at the time it made sense.

Salaries seemed to have escalated right around that time. Just looking at our starters (which Oquendo was at that point), salaries were jumping to that $2-$3M level around then.

Danny Serafini
04-04-2008, 09:08 AM
I saw a game many years ago, extra innings affair, between the Braves and the Cards, which in my memory I thought Whitey did that, but when I looked it up, I saw that it was a 19 inning game in which Jose Oquendo pitched four innings, got the loss (having almost gotten the win in the 18th) and pitcher Jose DeLeon played RF and LF, alternating with Tom Brunansky according to which side the batter hit from. P John Tudor pinch hit for DeLeon in the 19th too.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SLN/SLN198805140.shtml

I saw that game too, it's one of my favorites. It's the first thing I thought of when I saw the second post in this thread.

dabvu2498
04-04-2008, 09:13 AM
July 22, 1986. Reds vs. Mets @ Riverfront. Also Eric Davis vs. Ray Knight fight night.

In the bottom of the 10th, we have this, immediately after the fight and subsuquent ejections:

Roger McDowell replaces Ray Knight pitching and batting 7th; Ed Hearn replaces Kevin Mitchell playing C batting 5th; Gary Carter moves to 3B; Jesse Orosco moves to RF

Bottom 11, 2 outs:

Jesse Orosco moves to P; Roger McDowell moves to RF

Bottom 12:

Roger McDowell moves to LF; Mookie Wilson moves to RF

Bottom 13:

Roger McDowell moves to P; Mookie Wilson moves to LF; Jesse Orosco moves to RF

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN198607220.shtml

It worked out for the Mets as they won in 14.

princeton
04-04-2008, 09:19 AM
I had my younger son (then 6) alternate between RF and LF in a fourth graders game once-- we would have had only seven players without him. I had him wear a batting helmet out there, even though he was more likely to catch the ball than some of the other kids were.

The ball still found him. He just missed catching a fly ball-- popped out of his mitt.

Nugget
04-04-2008, 09:21 AM
Marcus McBeth started as an OF as well. They could just let McBeth and Coutlangus go back and forth for say the 7th and 8th inning and if the guy who isn't pitching plays in RF, it would improve the OF defense to boot.

Doubt it would improve the defense - just because they are younger and may have played OF before - plus the offense would be hurt anyway.

redsmetz
04-04-2008, 09:37 AM
July 22, 1986. Reds vs. Mets @ Riverfront. Also Eric Davis vs. Ray Knight fight night.

In the bottom of the 10th, we have this, immediately after the fight and subsuquent ejections

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CIN/CIN198607220.shtml

It worked out for the Mets as they won in 14.

I knew I had actually seen this in a game.

klw
04-04-2008, 09:53 AM
Well it has been a speciality with the Reds. Coutlangus, Aasadorian, and I think McBeth is the 3rd. Roenicke also is a recent convert to pitching.

westofyou
04-04-2008, 10:05 AM
However, I don't think I can recall ever seeing a pitcher double switched into the field and going back to pitching later in the same inning. How often does this happen?

I've seen it, several times an no it doesn't happen often theses days, it used to happen more when you had less relief pitchers on staff and you wanted to just play match up.

Cox probably would not have done it (I was watching it) IF the prior night had not taxed his BP or if Hampton had not gotten hurt earlier in the game and taxed the already taxed BP.

So in short, Cox tried his best to win with a short bench, if he was "over managing" then it was only because he had little choice to do otherwise.

klw
04-04-2008, 10:11 AM
So in short, Cox tried his best to win with a short bench, if he was "over managing" then it was only because he had little choice to do otherwise.

With Hampton being injured this was a pen night just a few days into the season and the game before was high scoring. If this had gone more than 10 innings both managers were going to have to get very creative.

RedsManRick
04-04-2008, 10:39 AM
I think it's a great stategy for utilizing a LOOGY without burning two pitchers -- especially Coutlangus who wouldn't embarrass himself in the OF.

dabvu2498
04-04-2008, 10:41 AM
I knew I had actually seen this in a game.

I was watching on TV at my grandparents' house. That made a big impression on me as a 10 year old boy.

My grandpa hated Ray Knight.

Far East
04-04-2008, 10:53 AM
In the 50's, Reds' manager Birdie Tebbitts, at least once did the pitcher-to-OF-back-to-pitcher switch.

Also, before -- or before I ever heard of -- the "wheel" (play where the 3B man charges a bunt and throws to the SS covering third), Tebbitts (at least once) brought his LF (Jim Greengrass?) in to cover third while the 3B man (Ray Jablonski?) charged the bunt.

princeton
04-04-2008, 10:56 AM
In the 50's, Reds' manager Birdie Tebbitts, at least once did the pitcher-to-OF-back-to-pitcher switch.

Also, before -- or before I ever heard of -- the "wheel" (play where the 3B man charges a bunt and throws to the SS covering third), Tebbitts (at least once) brought his LF (Jim Greengrass?) in to cover third while the 3B man (Ray Jablonski?) charged the bunt.

we have that in Little League.

LFer's way too far back in the majors. If he's that close, you're asking for trouble even if a pitcher is batting.

Raisor
04-04-2008, 11:21 AM
I'm not going to look it up, because I'm lazy, but I'd be very surprised if Brooks Kieschnick wasn't switched out like this.

OnBaseMachine
04-04-2008, 11:25 AM
I think I heard on Baseball Tonight last night that this was the first time in 15 years a pitcher was moved to a position and then brought back in as a pitcher.

Chip R
04-04-2008, 11:35 AM
I think it's a great stategy for utilizing a LOOGY without burning two pitchers -- especially Coutlangus who wouldn't embarrass himself in the OF.


Problem is that you're burning position players.

dabvu2498
04-04-2008, 11:37 AM
I'm not going to look it up, because I'm lazy, but I'd be very surprised if Brooks Kieschnick wasn't switched out like this.

I did. Surprisingly, no, he was never used this way.

There were a few times he PH, then stayed in the game to pitch, but never appeared as a position player and a pitcher in the same game.

Highlifeman21
04-04-2008, 11:41 AM
Yes, let's force a player that we want to keep long term to a position he has made clear he has no interest in playing.

In theory it's a fine idea, but players aren't robots. You make Dunn do something he doesn't want to do, and you run the risk of driving him out of Cincy.

I'm interested to see how a slimmed down Dunn plays in LF this year on 2 good knees, instead of 1.

In the long-run, Dunn will cash big checks at 1B or DH.

If he wants the name on that check to say "Cincinnati", then eventually he needs to find his permanent way to 1B.

Team Clark
04-04-2008, 12:00 PM
I have a friend who's a Braves fan and gets frustrated with Cox for the way he handles the bullpen. He told me to check the box score tonight to cement why he hates it.



When Blanco went to LF, Resop went back to the mound and subsequently lost them the game.

However, I don't think I can recall ever seeing a pitcher double switched into the field and going back to pitching later in the same inning. How often does this happen?

Whitey Herzog used to do this more than you would imagine. IIRC, he also did this during the playoffs and the opposing manager made a big stink about it.

Todd Worrel, Jose Deleon and Ricky Horton all played the OF for him. Mostly Worrell.

RFS62
04-04-2008, 12:01 PM
Pretty sure Gene Mauch did it too.

Caveat Emperor
04-04-2008, 01:37 PM
I think it's a great stategy for utilizing a LOOGY without burning two pitchers -- especially Coutlangus who wouldn't embarrass himself in the OF.

I loved it -- if you've got a killer LOOGY, why not maximize his use late in the game.

The issue the Pirates broadcasting team brought up which I found interesting was the pitcher's re-insertion into the game. The ump allowed Resop to throw warmup pitches when he was returned to the mound, which they claimed shouldn't be allowed since he had never left the game.

Matt700wlw
04-04-2008, 03:49 PM
Incidentally -- watching this game on EI -- the Braves had Chris Resop on the mound in the 10th. Cox came out and put in a lefty specialist in to face Adam LaRoche and sent Resop out to play left field. Then, after LaRoche struck out, they took Resop out of left field and put him back on the mound.

Bobby Cox, new super-genius?

Didn't Pete Rose do that?

Chip R
04-04-2008, 03:59 PM
Didn't Pete Rose do that?


I wouldn't bet on it. ;)

BCubb2003
04-04-2008, 04:21 PM
I thought I remembered Pete using Ron Robinson that way but I can't find any evidence of it.

westofyou
04-04-2008, 04:40 PM
PIRATES 9TH: Alou singled to center; GRANGER REPLACED CARROLL
(PITCHING); Hebner grounded into a double play (second to
shortstop to first) [Alou out at second]; Clemente singled to
center; GRANGER CHANGED POSITIONS (PLAYING LF); GULLETT REPLACED
CARBO (PITCHING); Stargell struck out; 0 R, 2 H, 0 E, 1 LOB.
Pirates 4, Reds 6.

Game Played on Friday, May 1, 1970 (N) at Crosley Field

CIN 6
PIT 4

westofyou
04-04-2008, 04:49 PM
Bobby has nothing on Hutch, he did more micro managing then anyone, just look at his game logs on retrosheet.

Here's a great example. Claude Osteens last appearance as a Red.


EDS 8TH: Freese singled to shortstop; Coleman walked [Freese to
second]; Post struck out; Robinson walked [Freese to third,
Coleman to second]; ELSTON REPLACED CARDWELL (PITCHING); Bailey
singled to pitcher [Freese scored, Coleman to third, Robinson to
second]; Pinson flied out to left; coach otero & jones
ejected for protesting 2-1 count pitch osteen replaced jones
with 2-2 count and struck out strike out credited to jones;
W. Jones struck out; 1 R, 2 H, 0 E, 3 LOB. Reds 2, Cubs 3.

CUBS 8TH: ROBINSON CHANGED POSITIONS (PLAYING 3B); OSTEEN
REPLACED W. JONES (PLAYING LF); Williams walked; Bouchee flied
out to right; Bertell walked [Williams to second]; Elston out on
a sacrifice bunt (catcher to second) [Williams to third, Bertell
to second]; Heist singled to center [Williams scored, Bertell
scored]; Zimmer walked [Heist to second]; BROSNAN REPLACED NUNN
(PITCHING); Banks lined to center; 2 R, 1 H, 0 E, 2 LOB. Reds

Two years later he would begin a string of 11 seasons that he pitched over 200 innings, including 8 over 250.

Local boy... ended up spending his last day on his dream job out of position.

Crazy stuff

camisadelgolf
04-05-2008, 03:10 AM
I wouldn't bet on it. ;)

Falls City Beer would.