PDA

View Full Version : Fogg is worse than MIlton



redsupport
04-04-2008, 11:39 PM
we will soon see the efficacy of Fogg

captainmorgan07
04-04-2008, 11:55 PM
you gotta give him more the one start. There's way better pitchers than fogg that pitched absolutely terrible this first week. Having Javy catching probably didnt' help out his chances. There gonna give him a few more starts before they cast him off to Louisville.

Enrico Pallazzo
04-05-2008, 12:13 AM
We have to give Fogg a few more starts before we even consider him worthy of Eric Milton's legacy. Milton had to work for three years (and untold thousands of frustrated redszone posts) before he became a legend. Plus he was 29x the price. I'm willing to give Fogg a chance, but he's going to have to put up much higher numbers before he's even mentioned in the same breath as Milton.

jmac
04-05-2008, 12:26 AM
Fogg is a # 5 starter and that is it.
Probably against the lefties of the phils, Milton may have faired better but overall Fogg may have a slighlty better era.
Still nothing to brag about.

big boy
04-05-2008, 12:27 AM
Wouldn't the Reds be better off with Bailey instead? I watched Fogg and saw the same thing as when I watched Milton, Mays, Wilson, Haynes etc. before him. They all stink.

GoReds33
04-05-2008, 12:33 AM
Wouldn't the Reds be better off with Bailey instead? I watched Fogg and saw the same thing as when I watched Milton, Mays, Wilson, Haynes etc. before him. They all stink.Possibly, but they need Bailey to get a few months of AAA, so he's better prepared for the good hitters in MLB.

big boy
04-05-2008, 12:40 AM
Possibly, but they need Bailey to get a few months of AAA, so he's better prepared for the good hitters in MLB.

Can they call Jose Acevedo and/or Seth Etherton then?

keeganbrick
04-05-2008, 12:52 AM
Yea, I dont really no why Fogg is ahead of Volquez. I can deal with him now, but hope to see Belisle or Bailey sooner than later.

jmac
04-05-2008, 01:07 AM
Every team seems to have at least one weak link in rotation.
Usually the reds have 3. Hopefully Cueto/Volquez can make that #5 spot the weak one in Fogg.
I call Fogg #5 despite what Dusty's rotation numbers say.

mlbfan30
04-05-2008, 01:12 AM
Yea, I dont really no why Fogg is ahead of Volquez. I can deal with him now, but hope to see Belisle or Bailey sooner than later.

Fogg breaks up the power arms of Cueto and Volquez. That's what Dusty said earlier today.

However, for him to actually break up those 2 pitchers, we need to have a 3/4 game series of exactly the 3/4/5 starters. It might happen a couple times a year, but I'd rather have Fogg #5 so he can get skipped. Some might say a 2/3/4 series will have Cueto/Volquez, but would anyone ever want Fogg over Volquez just because Cueto pitched before? Doesn't make much sense.

I've always said Fogg is a decent #5 starter, and he is. He'll average around 5.5 IP a start and have an ERA right around 5.00. That's what a #5 Starter does, and you can't expect more. In this case, Fogg is the #4 starter acting as a 5, and Volquez is a #5 acting as a 4. Fogg has been extremely consistent over the past 6 years, he's 31 which is still a peak age, so there's nothing to worry about. He'll do fine.

fugowitribe
04-05-2008, 01:23 AM
[QUOTE=mlbfan30;1591838]Fogg breaks up the power arms of Cueto and Volquez. That's what Dusty said earlier today.

However, for him to actually break up those 2 pitchers, we need to have a 3/4 game series of exactly the 3/4/5 starters. It might happen a couple times a year, but I'd rather have Fogg #5 so he can get skipped. Some might say a 2/3/4 series will have Cueto/Volquez, but would anyone ever want Fogg over Volquez just because Cueto pitched before? Doesn't make much sense.

It takes two guys that are very similar, in the fact that they are right-handed, same Mario Soto Changeup, and Same area on the Radar Gun and put a little changeup of Fogg in between the two to keep other teams from getting into a two day groove. Much the way a left-hander does for other clubs.

Hey Meat
04-05-2008, 01:58 AM
Fogg is meat. I looked forward to seeing him every time he pitched for the bucs against the Reds. THe only thing that helped him last year was the humidor. He will be dfa'd pretty soon and Bailey will be back up.

mroby85
04-05-2008, 03:50 AM
that was painful to watch, every time the offense would inch closer, he would give up more runs :(

NDReds9
04-05-2008, 04:56 AM
Look at the back of his baseball card!


Seriously, though - we know what we're going to get with him.
Roughly 10 wins, roughly 10 losses, roughly 5.00 ERA.
Some really good starts, some really bad starts

nw_ohio_fan
04-05-2008, 04:57 AM
Give him 2 more starts. Philly is a rock hard team. Fogg doesn't have to be an ace this year. If he can go out and eat up innings, that woud be start in the right direction.

durl
04-05-2008, 11:13 AM
It's one game.

BLEEDS
04-05-2008, 11:21 AM
It's one game.

WORD!!

I hope everyone doesn't call for Volquez being sent to AAA should he get beat up by this Phillies VERY POTENT offense - the same Offense he shut down like 15 times in Spring Training.

Surely the almost 2 hour rain delay didn't help, but everybody has a bad game, in Fogg's case it's just MORE intensified because HIS bad is REALLY bad.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Caveman Techie
04-05-2008, 11:32 AM
:rolleyes:

So what is everyone going to do when Cueto or Volquez have a bad outing? It's ONE game against an extremely good team. I'll wait a little while before throwing him to the wolves.

Newman4
04-05-2008, 12:03 PM
At least we have Bailey waiting at AAA. Also, doesn't Matt Belisle deserve another chance at some point?

TheBigLebowski
04-05-2008, 12:17 PM
Long rain delay (in case you didn't notice, Kyle Kendrick was no better - if our guys came up with a freaking clutch hit or two last night we'd have hung 8 on him) and he was facing possibly the most fearsome lineup in the NL. Tough to pass judgment from that one start.

durl
04-05-2008, 01:16 PM
Long rain delay (in case you didn't notice, Kyle Kendrick was no better - if our guys came up with a freaking clutch hit or two last night we'd have hung 8 on him)...

Excellent point. Neither pitcher was having their best game.

Degenerate39
04-05-2008, 01:25 PM
Not sure if he's worse than Milton but he did look really bad for the most part last night. I hope Belisle is back ASAP so he can be in the 4th spot of the rotation.

FlightRick
04-06-2008, 06:19 PM
Something that's been lost in all the furious indignation over Fogg's mediocrity and his being slotted as our "Number Four"....

With Volquez's start today, the SP Rotation is:

1) Harang
2) Volquez
3) Arroyo
4) Cueto
5) Fogg

Our lone off day in the next 3 weeks is Fogg's turn in the rotation (April 14). I'd wager handsomely that he'll be skipped.

Are we still upset over the way the pitchers were slotted coming out of spring training? Are we still convinced that Fogg will see a few more starts at the expense of a less sucky pitcher? Or can we all please just simmer down, now?


Rick

redsfanmia
04-06-2008, 06:32 PM
Milton was signed to a 3 year 27 million dollar contract. Fogg is signed to a 1 year 1 million dollar contract. Enough said.

mlbfan30
04-06-2008, 07:24 PM
Something that's been lost in all the furious indignation over Fogg's mediocrity and his being slotted as our "Number Four"....

With Volquez's start today, the SP Rotation is:

1) Harang
2) Volquez
3) Arroyo
4) Cueto
5) Fogg

Our lone off day in the next 3 weeks is Fogg's turn in the rotation (April 14). I'd wager handsomely that he'll be skipped.

Are we still upset over the way the pitchers were slotted coming out of spring training? Are we still convinced that Fogg will see a few more starts at the expense of a less sucky pitcher? Or can we all please just simmer down, now?


Rick

This may be crazy.... But did Baker Actually PLAN The Rotation to end up like this out of Spring Training?
JunkBaller Arroyo Splitting up Fireballers Cueto/Volquez with Fogg in the 5th slot. It almost seems too nice for Baker to actually think up of this.

NorrisHopper30
04-06-2008, 07:31 PM
Fogg is better than Milton and he only costs 1million.

_Sir_Charles_
04-06-2008, 07:32 PM
One start does not define a season. Now, do I think Fogg is worse than Milton? No. But I do think Fogg is head & shoulders better than our #5 starters from last year. Think back on our #5's from last season....

E. Ramirez
K. Saarloos
P. Dumatrait
E. Milton

Tom Shearn was a pleasant surprise, but I think I'd take my chances with Fogg over Shearn. Bobby Livingston & Homer Bailey had some nice starts last year but Homer has shown he needs more time. As for Livingston...anybody know what his status is? And when he does come back...where does he go? Louisville I'd guess.

Complain all you want about Fogg, but this is a #5 starter problem that most teams would love to have. Solid competition for the #5 spot. Belisle, Bailey, Shearn, Livingston, Affeldt, and Fogg. It's a nice change of pace to actually have a few halfway decent arms to fall back on if a starter gets injured or struggles.

One last thing that makes Fogg tremendously better than Milton...his contract. :O)

DTCromer
04-06-2008, 07:41 PM
Give him 2 more starts. Philly is a rock hard team. Fogg doesn't have to be an ace this year. If he can go out and eat up innings, that woud be start in the right direction.

Perfectly stated.

Handofdeath
04-07-2008, 01:58 PM
It never ceases to amaze me the negativity and expectations of certain people on this board. Fogg was signed very cheaply to be the Reds #5 pitcher. They did not sign him expecting him to be the staff ace. The Reds knew exactly what they were getting when they did sign him. Fogg, like any pitcher, is going to have his bad outings. But Fogg is a talented pitcher who has been a very solid contributor and I'm sure will continue to be so for the Reds. No team signs a bottom of the rotation guy expecting him to dominate. The Reds expect Fogg to win 10-12 games and post an ERA a little under 5.00 which is pretty much what he has done throughout his career. The Reds have a veteran who is a career.500 SP with an ERA just under 5.00 on their staff. Some teams last season couldn't get that from their #3-5 SP's and won't this season. The Reds are lucky to have Josh Fogg in their rotation and Reds fans should feel lucky. I would also remind everyone that Josh Fogg was the #2 SP on the Rockies team last season that made it to the World Series and outside of Denver he had an ERA of 4.15. Ease up and let the guy do what he was brought in to do.

BLEEDS
04-07-2008, 02:37 PM
It never ceases to amaze me the negativity and expectations of certain people on this board. Fogg was signed very cheaply to be the Reds #5 pitcher. They did not sign him expecting him to be the staff ace. The Reds knew exactly what they were getting when they did sign him. Fogg, like any pitcher, is going to have his bad outings. But Fogg is a talented pitcher who has been a very solid contributor and I'm sure will continue to be so for the Reds. No team signs a bottom of the rotation guy expecting him to dominate. The Reds expect Fogg to win 10-12 games and post an ERA a little under 5.00 which is pretty much what he has done throughout his career. The Reds have a veteran who is a career.500 SP with an ERA just under 5.00 on their staff. Some teams last season couldn't get that from their #3-5 SP's and won't this season. The Reds are lucky to have Josh Fogg in their rotation and Reds fans should feel lucky. I would also remind everyone that Josh Fogg was the #2 SP on the Rockies team last season that made it to the World Series and outside of Denver he had an ERA of 4.15. Ease up and let the guy do what he was brought in to do.

:notworthy

PEACE

-BLEEDS

tommycash
04-07-2008, 02:43 PM
Arroyo's getting rocked today, lets get rid of him too. Lets just get rid of every pitcher that has 2 or 3 bad games.

redrum
04-07-2008, 05:56 PM
Fogg has built a career on being a very bad 5th starter.

He was helped last year by a good Rockies team (especially defensively), a good Rockies bullpen that bailed him out on a number of occasions, and the notoriously pitching friendly parks of the NL West.

Fogg is below average even for a 5th starter. He always has been and always will be. I didn't even need him to make 1 start for the Reds in order to realize that.

Handofdeath
04-08-2008, 09:12 PM
Fogg has built a career on being a very bad 5th starter.

He was helped last year by a good Rockies team (especially defensively), a good Rockies bullpen that bailed him out on a number of occasions, and the notoriously pitching friendly parks of the NL West.

Fogg is below average even for a 5th starter. He always has been and always will be. I didn't even need him to make 1 start for the Reds in order to realize that.

Fogg put up the same numbers in 2007 for the Rockies that he did pitching for the Pirates 2002-2005 and the Rockies in 2006. And the "notoriously pitching friendly parks of the NL West?"

2007 Park Factors (over 100 favors batters)

Colorado 109
Arizona 105
San Diego 88
Los Angeles 104
San Francisco 100

Sounds like you just don't like the guy period. That's cool because you're entitled to your opinion. But the reasons you're giving aren't exactly supported by the facts.

tommycash
04-08-2008, 11:13 PM
Give the guy a chance (maybe 2 more starts). I mean we took chances on guys like Mark Portugal, Jimmy Haynes, Pete Shourek(sp?), and Pete Harnisch and these guys all helped us at one point. Maybe Fogg can help us. You might want too much out of him, and expect him to win 14 games and have an ERA of 4 or under, but he cant do that. His job is to keep his ERA in between 4 and 5, eat a lot of innings, and go .500. That is what a 5 man is to do. At the end of the year we can send him on his way and welcome Homer in and have one of the best rotations in baseball.

hebroncougar
04-08-2008, 11:14 PM
Fogg is nothing more than a placeholder for the Reds. And he came cheap by today's standards.

tommycash
04-08-2008, 11:33 PM
Exactly, and a better placeholder than others that we have had in the past.

redrum
04-09-2008, 12:43 AM
Fogg put up the same numbers in 2007 for the Rockies that he did pitching for the Pirates 2002-2005 and the Rockies in 2006. And the "notoriously pitching friendly parks of the NL West?"

2007 Park Factors (over 100 favors batters)

Colorado 109
Arizona 105
San Diego 88
Los Angeles 104
San Francisco 100

Sounds like you just don't like the guy period. That's cool because you're entitled to your opinion. But the reasons you're giving aren't exactly supported by the facts.


Okay. I guess I was off about the parks. I could have sworn the LA and SF were more of pitcher parks.

And yes you are right, I don't like Josh Fogg. Well actually I didn't dislike him until the Reds decided to sign him. I liked Josh when he was pitching against the Reds.

The fact of the matter is he may be the worst starting pitcher in the game today. Fogg has pitched the same way since he arrived in the major leagues. In fact to date he has managed to log 1000+ innings with nearly a 5.00 ERA. That is quite a track record. You would be hard pressed to find another active starting pitcher with a worse one.

BUTLER REDSFAN
04-09-2008, 12:44 AM
Is Milton pitching for anyone now???

redrum
04-09-2008, 12:46 AM
Fogg is nothing more than a placeholder for the Reds. And he came cheap by today's standards.

Unfortunately Fogg costs much more than his salary. His real cost shows up in the team's overworked bullpen and ultimately their W/L record.

hebroncougar
04-09-2008, 07:58 AM
Unfortunately Fogg costs much more than his salary. His real cost shows up in the team's overworked bullpen and ultimately their W/L record.

I won't argue that his cost his higher than his salary. However, the Reds could have done a whole lot worse, like giving someone like Fogg (or worse) a 2 or 3 year deal.

redrum
04-09-2008, 11:11 AM
I won't argue that his cost his higher than his salary. However, the Reds could have done a whole lot worse, like giving someone like Fogg (or worse) a 2 or 3 year deal.

Using that logic the Milton signing could have been viewed as 'good' because it could have been longer and for more money. ;)

I didn't mind Fogg being signed as a backup plan in case not enough of the kids (Cueto/Volquez/Bailey) were ready to pitch in the majors and the Reds were forced to more-or-less punt the season. I still wouldn't mind Fogg stashed at AAA or in the bullpen as 'the mop up guy'. I just don't think Fogg should be getting regular starts if this team is serious about contending.

hebroncougar
04-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Using that logic the Milton signing could have been viewed as 'good' because it could have been longer and for more money. ;)

I didn't mind Fogg being signed as a backup plan in case not enough of the kids (Cueto/Volquez/Bailey) were ready to pitch in the majors and the Reds were forced to more-or-less punt the season. I still wouldn't mind Fogg stashed at AAA or in the bullpen as 'the mop up guy'. I just don't think Fogg should be getting regular starts if this team is serious about contending.

I don't disagree. But do you think Bailey was ready? Belisle? Look at the #5 starters in the division and rank Fogg........I don't have time to look them all up right now, so I really don't know.

tommycash
04-09-2008, 11:09 PM
Fogg pitched well tonight. I guess we will have to wait for him to blow up next time. Dang him for doing a good job. What nerve he has. He did his job tonight and should be commended for that, no matter what your opinion of him. The better he does, the more prep time Bailey gets and that is Fogg's job this year.

Handofdeath
04-10-2008, 06:43 PM
I just don't think Fogg should be getting regular starts if this team is serious about contending.

Then explain how the Rockies made it to the World Series last season with him as their #2 starter? Better yet, explain how a team's decision on a #5 starter gauges their seriousness about contending that season?

CWRed
04-10-2008, 09:56 PM
Milton was just a LITTLE more expensive.

And simply brutal

Va Red Fan
04-11-2008, 03:41 PM
Fogg is not as bad as many on this board seem to think. He is a .500 pitcher. Give him time.

Jefferson24
04-11-2008, 03:53 PM
Fogg is ok for now. I sure like having Bailey and Belisle ready to step in from AAA if there is a problem. I think Fogg is temporary, Bailey or Belisle will be up by mid May.

redrum
04-12-2008, 11:12 AM
I don't disagree. But do you think Bailey was ready? Belisle? Look at the #5 starters in the division and rank Fogg........I don't have time to look them all up right now, so I really don't know.

When Belisle is healthy, I would much perfer he be the Reds 5th starter. Until then we hope Fogg can keep them in the games.

Va Red Fan
04-12-2008, 12:05 PM
According to EPSN's website, here are the career stats for the #5 starters of the other NL Central teams.

Games Record WHIP ERA
Jon Thompson 129 14-8 1.40 3.93
Manny Parra 11 1-2 1.37 4.04
Chris Sampson 38 9-10 1.27 4.06
Jason Marquis 229 68-61 1.42 4.57
Zack Duke 70 21-25 1.50 4.14

Josh Fogg 199 61-61 1.46 4.91

Is Fogg horrible in comparison? No.
Is he the elite of the group ? No.
Is he capable of doing what he has done so far in his career and be a .500 pitcher and eat up innings that otherwise may go to unprepared of non-major league talent? Surely.
Give the guy a break.

redrum
04-12-2008, 03:00 PM
Then explain how the Rockies made it to the World Series last season with him as their #2 starter? Better yet, explain how a team's decision on a #5 starter gauges their seriousness about contending that season?

Because they were an offensive juggernaut, well above average defensively and had a solid bullpen. Okay, your turn. Why did the #2 starter of a World Series team have to settle for a 1 year, 1 million dollar contract on the free agent market?

If you can't understand how running a below average starting pitcher out there 25-30 time in a season hurts your team's chances of winning, well I just don't know what to say.

captainmorgan07
04-12-2008, 04:16 PM
he's had two starts so far and he's 1-1. Last time i checked that's a better record than arroyo has at the moment. Let's no throw the guy overboard already just so we can see the same old song and dance from matt belisle. The guy pitched in Coors field and obviously was effective give him a chance and GABP. We are so quick to can ppl around here give the guy a chance.

Va Red Fan
04-22-2008, 03:28 PM
Belisle is so much better than Fogg! OOps.

Hondo
04-23-2008, 10:12 PM
This team could have sunk 15-18 Million into a bonafide ace instead of signing Hatte, Freel, Stanton, AGonzalez, Coffey, Patterson, Bako, Merker, etc...etc... etc...

redsupport
04-23-2008, 11:04 PM
add junkballer arroyo to that list

NastyBoy
04-26-2008, 05:35 PM
Add Harang to the list.... he is now 1-3. So much for our ACE... no wait, the reds offense is only scoring 1 or 2 runs for him. Having flashbacks of Mario Soto in 1982.