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View Full Version : Second Guess the Manager Poll: Today's Topic Dunn Pulled



RBA
04-05-2008, 04:50 AM
Did Dusty make the right decision taking Adam Dunn out of the game early?

GAC
04-05-2008, 05:30 AM
Maybe he was tired after chasing those balls bouncing around the LF wall? :lol:

I have no idea why Dusty pulled him. And unless an explanation is given, then that is all we would be doing - second guessing.

Was Dunn's knee bothering him, and he said something to Dusty? If so, then maybe Dusty pulled him due to the amount of rain, and the condition of the OF?

mth123
04-05-2008, 08:03 AM
He wasn't pulling Dunn. Dunn was the last guy due up and he made a double switch. It was all about trying to manage his bullpen and had nothing to do with Dunn. This stuff happens all the time.

Highlifeman21
04-05-2008, 08:14 AM
Maybe I'm of the wrong opinion, but the only reason I take Dunn out of the game is if he's injured, or asks to come out.

I don't think either of those last 2 conditions were the case.

Falls City Beer
04-05-2008, 08:19 AM
This stuff happens all the time.

Not really.

Falls City Beer
04-05-2008, 08:25 AM
Dusty should manage on the assumption that the Reds' bullpen's not likely to do a very good job of keeping the other team from scoring, necessitating Dunn's presence in the lineup for 9 innings.

This team has lame power in their starting lineup and an even weaker bench. Dunn's the only presence that would force an opposing manager's hand vis. pitching changes and the like.

puca
04-05-2008, 08:28 AM
I don't care if he was the last out in the inning, you don't pull Dunn in that situation. Without Dunn in the lineup the chances of the Reds mounting a comeback were reduced.

puca
04-05-2008, 08:33 AM
This stuff happens all the time.

Rarely does (arguably) a team's best hitter get double switched. I view that move as a purely mechanical one with no regard to the personnel involved, similar to having EE bunt the day before, which is something I really didn't expect out of Dusty.

Chip R
04-05-2008, 08:41 AM
OK, if he was ging to make a double switch, who was he going to take out besides Dunn? Not Phillips and he's certainly not going to take Jr. out. It would be madness to take Kepp out and if you take Patterson out, you might as well not double switch at all.

mth123
04-05-2008, 08:43 AM
Rarely does (arguably) a team's best hitter get double switched. I view that move as a purely mechanical one with no regard to the personnel involved, similar to having EE bunt the day before, which is something I really didn't expect out of Dusty.

I think it was mechanical too. The point isn't whether I agree with taking Dunn out, but Dusty wanted multiple innings from his next pitcher (rightly so) and mechanically, as you put it, double switched with the guy due up last involved. I personally wouldn't have done that, but it does happen a lot. (Why I voted other and not yes or no).

The point is that the move wasn't any kind of signal that Dusty is unhappy with Dunn or that Dunn's status has changed in the eyes of management. Mechanical is probably a good word for it. Maybe not the best strategy, but reading the game thread, I have the impression that many thought that this was some indication that Dusty was unhappy with Dunn's last at bat or was looking to get him out of there and I don't think that was the case.

I would have left Dunn in, but I agree with finding a way to get multiple innings from his next pitcher.

Falls City Beer
04-05-2008, 08:43 AM
OK, if he was ging to make a double switch, who was he going to take out besides Dunn? Not Phillips and he's certainly not going to take Jr. out. It would be madness to take Kepp out and if you take Patterson out, you might as well not double switch at all.

Don't double switch.

mth123
04-05-2008, 08:44 AM
OK, if he was ging to make a double switch, who was he going to take out besides Dunn? Not Phillips and he's certainly not going to take Jr. out. It would be madness to take Kepp out and if you take Patterson out, you might as well not double switch at all.

Exactly.

Falls City Beer
04-05-2008, 08:44 AM
I think it was mechanical too. The point isn't whether I agree with taking Dunn out, but Dusty wanted multiple innings from his next pitcher (rightly so) and mechanically, as you put it, double switched with the guy due up last involved. I personally wouldn't have done that, but it does happen a lot. (Why I voted other and not yes or no).

The point is that the move wasn't any kind of signal that Dusty is unhappy with Dunn or that Dunn's status has changed in the eyes of management. Mechanical is probably a good word for it. Maybe not the best strategy, but reading the game thread, I have the impression that many thought that this was some indication that Dusty was unhappy with Dunn's last at bat or was looking to get him out of there and I don't think that was the case.

I would have left Dunn in, but I agree with finding a way to get multiple innings from his next pitcher.

I didn't get the impression that Dusty was mad at Dunn.

Highlifeman21
04-05-2008, 08:50 AM
Unfortunately, I fear this isn't the last time we'll see The Dusty double switch Dunn out of the lineup.

The double switch is The Dusty's old school bread & butter, and when the opportunity arises again, the smart money is on the The Dusty to put Dunn on the pine, again.

puca
04-05-2008, 08:50 AM
A double switch is not manditory. I wouldn't downgrade my offense from Dunn to Freel and leave my 3rd and 4th place hitters protected by the pitcher's slot the rest of the game just in case my 6th, 7th and 8th hitters start a rally the next inning. If you think about it, the likelyhood of the pitchers slot coming up with runners in scoring position the next inning was rather small. And even if it did happen, you could abandon your plan for Burton to go 2 innings and use your best hitter on the bench (Hatteberg) to try to get back in the game.

Nothing about that move passes the common sense test.

Reds Fanatic
04-05-2008, 08:51 AM
There is a time for double switches and that was not it. In a game in which you were down 3 runs you can't take out your main power hitter that can turn around a game with one swing of the bat. It comes down to is it more important to get a 2nd innning out of Burton than lose 2 Dunn at bats. In a game in which you are down you need the 2 Dunn ABs.

mth123
04-05-2008, 09:07 AM
I understand what you guys are saying, but I protect my pitching staff at all costs. The team had to get more than 1 inning from the next pitcher IMO and when the 9 spot in the order came up there were guys on base and a PH surely would have been used. If I have to choose between burning up the bullpen before Memorial Day or a good hitter missing a plate appearance here and there during a long season, I let the guys miss the plate appearance. The 3rd choice would be to let the new pitcher bat with runners on and hope for the best, but we would be second guessing that one too.

IMO the real failings were falling behind in the first place, squandering chances in other situations prior to that and possibly that the Reds don't have a RH power bat to use in that situation and had to settle for Freel as the choice to replace the offensive source. I think the Freel/Hopper redundancy hit home last night. Both came-up with men on base and neither was the best choice in that situation.

I don't really like taking Dunn out there, but there were no other choices to double switch with that I liked any better. I also didn't like the idea of putting the pitcher in and pinch hitting after one inning, and I didn't like the idea letting the pitcher hit. There was no way to make a good decision in this game. That happens when the team falls behind early.

sonny
04-05-2008, 09:24 AM
I understand what you guys are saying, but I protect my pitching staff at all costs. The team had to get more than 1 inning from the next pitcher IMO and when the 9 spot in the order came up there were guys on base and a PH surely would have been used. If I have to choose between burning up the bullpen before Memorial Day or a good hitter missing a plate appearance here and there during a long season, I let the guys miss the plate appearance. The 3rd choice would be to let the new pitcher bat with runners on and hope for the best, but we would be second guessing that one too.

IMO the real failings were falling behind in the first place, squandering chances in other situations prior to that and possibly that the Reds don't have a RH power bat to use in that situation and had to settle for Freel as the choice to replace the offensive source. I think the Freel/Hopper redundancy hit home last night. Both came-up with men on base and neither was the best choice in that situation.

I don't really like taking Dunn out there, but there were no other choices to double switch with that I liked any better. I also didn't like the idea of putting the pitcher in and pinch hitting after one inning, and I didn't like the idea letting the pitcher hit. There was no way to make a good decision in this game. That happens when the team falls behind early.

Agreed. Dusty's hand was forced and he had to play the one he was dealt.

Falls City Beer
04-05-2008, 09:24 AM
The big issue is getting Belisle in Fogg's spot so as not to have to expose this bullpen over 4-5 innings consistently. This is still a monumentally awful bullpen.

cincrazy
04-05-2008, 09:28 AM
I didn't like the move. The offense was trying furiously all night to catch up, and he takes our most dangerous hitter out of the lineup in the 6th inning when we're only down three. I understand his line of thinking behind the move, but I disagree with it. Shades of Bob Boone in 2003.

Raisor
04-05-2008, 09:29 AM
Once you've doubled switched Dunn out of the game, you're basicily throwing in the towel.

Kc61
04-05-2008, 09:38 AM
Agreed. Dusty's hand was forced and he had to play the one he was dealt.

Just don't agree at all. His hand wasn't forced.

Burton pitched the 6th and 7th last night. Weathers the 8th. Coffey the 9th.

If Dusty wanted Burton for two innings, he could have switched these guys around, pitched Weathers in the 6th, then brought Burton in for the 7th and 8th. If a double switch was necessary, he could have double switched Votto or whomever made the last out for the Reds in the 6th, rather than Dunn who made the last out in the 5th.

Dunn should not come out of the game after 5 innings.

I assume, with Burton for two, Dusty was going for the win. Why use one of your best relievers for two innings unless you think it is a winnable game?

Yet, if Dusty was going for the win, he needs to keep Dunn out there.

There were better ways to handle this particular situation.

puca
04-05-2008, 09:38 AM
The pitchers slot was due up 4th that inning. There was no guarantee that it would come to bat. He pulled Dunn for the chance that the pitcher's slot would bat in the 6th. And even though that occured, Dusty was left with a sub-optimal matchup (Freel vs righthander) instead of Hatteberg with arguably the game on the line.

I don't see any way of arguing that the move did anything but reduce the Reds chances of winning last night. If he needed 2 innings out of a reliever so badly, why didn't he use Affeldt for one more?

mth123
04-05-2008, 09:43 AM
The pitchers slot was due up 4th that inning. There was no guarantee that it would come to bat. He pulled Dunn for the chance that the pitcher's slot would bat in the 6th. And even though that occured, Dusty was left with a sub-optimal matchup (Freel vs righthander) instead of Hatteberg with arguably the game on the line.

I don't see any way of arguing that the move did anything but reduce the Reds chances of winning last night. If he needed 2 innings out of a reliever so badly, why didn't he use Affeldt for one more?

I (theoretically) agree with that argument. Affeldt was shaky though. I don't think his first choice was to change pitchers, but it looked like Affeldt was about to get rocked, otherwise he would have probably left him in.

mth123
04-05-2008, 09:56 AM
Just don't agree at all. His hand wasn't forced.

Burton pitched the 6th and 7th last night. Weathers the 8th. Coffey the 9th.

If Dusty wanted Burton for two innings, he could have switched these guys around, pitched Weathers in the 6th, then brought Burton in for the 7th and 8th. If a double switch was necessary, he could have double switched Votto or whomever made the last out for the Reds in the 6th, rather than Dunn who made the last out in the 5th.

Dunn should not come out of the game after 5 innings.

I assume, with Burton for two, Dusty was going for the win. Why use one of your best relievers for two innings unless you think it is a winnable game?

Yet, if Dusty was going for the win, he needs to keep Dunn out there.

There were better ways to handle this particular situation.

I think there is logic to this argument regarding Weathers and Burton switching around. Unfortunately, it appears that Weathers is the 8th inning guy and won't be used earlier very often. Dusty isn't the only Manager who manages like that.

I do think the pecking order in the bullpen may have changed. I think Baker views Burton as the guy who pitches multiple innings when the team is behind. I get the impression that in close games when trying to protect a lead right now, we'll see Lincoln, Mercker and Weathers in front of Cordero with a dash of Coffey thrown in.

Burton's two good innings last night we're a big positive coming out of that train wreck IMO. This team needs some one to prove reliable in the 7th and 8th. IMO that is this team's biggest weakness. Hopefully he'll get going and move back to late inning guy soon.

SteelSD
04-05-2008, 10:07 AM
Once you've doubled switched Dunn out of the game, you're basicily throwing in the towel.

Nah. It was just an extremely inventive way of eventually getting Juan Castro his first AB of the season.;)

It was another bad move by Baker. If you double-switch there, you're still going to have to pinch hit later anyway for the Pitcher, who's now slotted in the five hole due to the double-switch. The slot was guaranteed to come up with that many Outs left in the game.

That was just Dusty Baker doing what Dusty Baker does.

mth123
04-05-2008, 10:19 AM
Nah. It was just an extremely inventive way of eventually getting Juan Castro his first AB of the season.;)

It was another bad move by Baker. If you double-switch there, you're still going to have to pinch hit later anyway for the Pitcher, who's now slotted in the five hole due to the double-switch. The slot was guaranteed to come up with that many Outs left in the game.

That was just Dusty Baker doing what Dusty Baker does.

That's true, but by the time that slot rolled around a change would have been necessary anyway. It prevents making two changes and those are the types of moves that conserve a pen over 162 games. I think KC's argument about switching Weathers for an inning and letting Burton pitch the 7th and 8th is the best I've heard, but Dusty was "saving" Weathers for the 8th in the event there was a lead to protect. I don't agree with that, but I think most of the managers in baseball manage like that.

Dusty could have done as KC suggests and it would have been really smart IMO, but I don't expect any manager to be really smart these days. I just don't want real stupid. In this situation, I think Dusty chose one of three really bad choices (Double Switch with the guy due up 9th which was Dunn in this case, only go 1 inning with Burton, let the pitcher hit) that most managers would limit themselves to. I don't consider that really stupid.

Now hitting Castro instead of Hatte was really stupid...

Big Klu
04-05-2008, 10:31 AM
Just don't agree at all. His hand wasn't forced.

Burton pitched the 6th and 7th last night. Weathers the 8th. Coffey the 9th.

If Dusty wanted Burton for two innings, he could have switched these guys around, pitched Weathers in the 6th, then brought Burton in for the 7th and 8th. If a double switch was necessary, he could have double switched Votto or whomever made the last out for the Reds in the 6th, rather than Dunn who made the last out in the 5th.

Dunn should not come out of the game after 5 innings.

Great point. Double-switching Votto with Hatteberg (or vice versa, when Hatte starts) would seem to be a natural move. I still wonder if maybe Dunn was sick or something, because double-switching your best power hitter out of the game after the fifth inning just doesn't make sense.


Nah. It was just an extremely inventive way of eventually getting Juan Castro his first AB of the season.;)

I thought that Castro was the wrong choice to pinch-hit to lead off the inning. (No, not because he "is" Juan Castro!) I thought it should have been Hatteberg for two reasons:

1) Hatteberg is the far superior offensive player. It was late in the game, and the Reds likely would not have another chance to use the "best bullet" on the bench.

2) With the pitcher's spot in the #5 hole leading off, it means that Votto in the #7 hole would definitely bat, which means that Dusty could double-switch Hatteberg in and Votto out. This would have the effect of pushing the pitcher's position two spots back, thus delaying a possible Castro at-bat as the final pinch-hitter.

SteelSD
04-05-2008, 10:35 AM
That's true, but by the time that slot rolled around a change would have been necessary anyway. It prevents making two changes and those are the types of moves that conserve a pen over 162 games. I think KC's argument about switching Weathers for an inning and letting Burton pitch the 7th and 8th is the best I've heard, but Dusty was "saving" Weathers for the 8th in the event there was a lead to protect. I don't agree with that, but I think most of the managers in baseball manage like that.

Dusty could have done as KC suggests and that and it would have been really smart IMO, but I don't expect any manager to be really smart these days. I just don't want real stupid. In this situation, I think Dusty chose one of three really bad choices (Double Switch with the guy due up 9th which was Dunn in this case, only go 1 inning with Burton, let the pitcher hit) that most managers would limit themselves to. I don't consider that really stupid.

Now hitting Castro instead of Hatte was really stupid...

Actually, Baker pretty much couldn't use Hatteberg as a pinch hitter after Valentin pulled up lame. That aside...

While I see your point, I also don't think what your league average Manager could be expected to do insulates Baker. Just because your league average Manager might not understand how to properly leverage a bullpen, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't expect our Manager to be able to do it.

Secondly, part of Baker's plan was to get 2 Innings out of a guy (Burton) who'd never recorded six consecutive MLB Outs in a game prior to yesterday. So instead of using Weathers or even Lincoln (who threw all of six pitches the day before) for that one Inning, Baker actually pushed a high-leverage pen arm in an effort to "save" the bullpen while also guaranteeing that the most powerful bat on the team wouldn't see another PA.

To me, that's all sorts of bad.

Yachtzee
04-05-2008, 10:39 AM
I think there is logic to this argument regarding Weathers and Burton switching around. Unfortunately, it appears that Weathers is the 8th inning guy and won't be used earlier very often. Dusty isn't the only Manager who manages like that.

I do think the pecking order in the bullpen may have changed. I think Baker views Burton as the guy who pitches multiple innings when the team is behind. I get the impression that in close games when trying to protect a lead right now, we'll see Lincoln, Mercker and Weathers in front of Cordero with a dash of Coffey thrown in.

Burton's two good innings last night we're a big positive coming out of that train wreck IMO. This team needs some one to prove reliable in the 7th and 8th. IMO that is this team's biggest weakness. Hopefully he'll get going and move back to late inning guy soon.

And that is where managers often fail when it comes to managing pitchers. The alleged benefit of having an "old school" manager with Baker's experience is that he is supposed to have an intuitive sense about when to make changes and to be able to adapt to situations that run counter to "the stats." But if he's locked into things like pulling mechanical double switches because he has to follow some mechanical pecking order, then why have him at all? Why not just have a chart in the dugout that lists all the situations in which each player should be used and just have a guy who can read the chart and make changes accordingly?

It seems to me like alleged "old school" managers today are locked in to the idea of bullpen "roles" rather than looking at the strengths and weaknesses of each member of the team and making changes with those attributes in mind. It's hardly "old school," unless by "old school" you mean lazy or unwilling to adapt to the situation. As Kc91 said, I think that if Baker were paying attention to the situation rather than just going by the book, he would have brought in a 1 inning guy instead and waited until the next inning to pull the double switch with the long reliever and a player less likely to weaken the offense.

mth123
04-05-2008, 10:44 AM
Actually, Baker pretty much couldn't use Hatteberg as a pinch hitter after Valentin pulled up lame. That aside...

While I see your point, I also don't think what your league average Manager could be expected to do insulates Baker. Just because your league average Manager might not understand how to properly leverage a bullpen, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't expect our Manager to be able to do it.

Secondly, part of Baker's plan was to get 2 Innings out of a guy (Burton) who'd never recorded six consecutive MLB Outs in a game prior to yesterday. So instead of using Weathers or even Lincoln (who threw all of six pitches the day before), Baker actually pushed a high-leverage pen arm in an effort to "save" the bullpen while also guaranteeing that the most powerful bat on the team wouldn't see another PA.

To me, that's all sorts of bad.

I think its fair to expect more. I've been disappointed too much to do so I guess.

I think Burton is not in the "high leverage role" right now. I think Lincoln and Mercker have passed him. Right or wrong, Burton is in the "prove to me you've got it together by succeeding in the role that I use you in and that will be multi innings when we're behind" role. I think he did a good job in regaining his spot last night.

If you are suggesting that Hatte was the next option behind the plate, I'm for it. Let him start there against RH pitchers at home. It shouldn't be a huge load for him, it will keep his bat fresh without having to sit Votto and it avoids the carnage of Ross, Javy or Bako playing once in a while.

SteelSD
04-05-2008, 10:52 AM
I think its fair to expect more. I've been disappointed too much to do so I guess.

I think Burton is not in the "high leverage role" right now. I think Lincoln and Mercker have passed him. Right or wrong, Burton is in the "prove to me you've got it together by succeeding in the role that I use you in and that will be multi innings when we're behind" role. I think he did a good job in regaining his spot last night.

Man, if two guys who didn't combine for a single MLB pitch in 2007 have passed Jared Burton in the pecking order, then you might have just identified yet another issue.


If you are suggesting that Hatte was the next option behind the plate, I'm for it. Let him start there against RH pitchers at home. It shouldn't be a huge load for him, it will keep his bat fresh without having to sit Votto and it avoids the carnage of Ross, Javy or Bako playing once on a while.

Yeah, after Valentin pulled up lame, the only realistic option was to hold Hatteberg in reserve to protect against Bako going down as well.

Jeez. Until I typed that, I had no idea how awful that sounds.

Waiter! Catcher please?!!

mth123
04-05-2008, 10:53 AM
Waiter! Catcher please?!!

LMAO

Raisor
04-05-2008, 10:55 AM
Man, if two guys who didn't combine for a single MLB pitch in 2007 have passed Jared Burton in the pecking order, then you might have just identified yet another issue.



Yeah, after Valentin pulled up lame, the only realistic option was to hold Hatteberg in reserve to protect against Bako going down as well.

Jeez. Until I typed that, I had no idea how awful that sounds.

Waiter! Catcher please?!!

AaronH is the emergency emergency emergency catcher.

Yachtzee
04-05-2008, 11:00 AM
AaronH is the emergency emergency emergency catcher.

Here is the emergency emergency emergency emergency catcher.

http://wackyadvice.com/halloween/PitchBack.gif

mth123
04-05-2008, 11:03 AM
Man, if two guys who didn't combine for a single MLB pitch in 2007 have passed Jared Burton in the pecking order, then you might have just identified yet another issue.

I assume Burton's awful spring has temporarily moved him to low leverage innings until he gets on a roll. If he pitches well, he'll switch back unless the other guys refuse to be removed with their pitching. I have some hopes that Lincoln may grab that role and hang onto it. The team needs a reliever to emerge from nowhere. Lincoln looks like the best bet right now, but Burton helped himself a lot last night IMO.

WMR
04-05-2008, 11:12 AM
I thought it was an absolutely atrocious decision, already surpassing the EE bunt decision for Dusty's "Worst Managerial Decision of 2008." I don't expect this decision to hold that distinction very long either, however. :(

cincinnati chili
04-05-2008, 11:12 AM
Yes, this was dumb. I'm of the opinion that you never double switch for an inferior hitter when you're behind. If you're ahead, and you can bring in a guy who plays better defense, then there's a chance the move is defensible.

You can NOT double switch and still save the bullpen. If the Reds come back, they would use Cordero anyway. If Burton gives up five runs and the game is basically over, then you can bring in a position player to pitch to save the pen.

Matt700wlw
04-05-2008, 11:13 AM
Dusty's explanation, from Fay:

"I didn't want to take him out," Baker said. "But I needed to get two inning out of (Jared) Burton. I don't want to use up the bullpen. This is four-game series."





Next time they can skip a pitcher, let's skip the crappy one. Just my take.

jojo
04-05-2008, 11:14 AM
So far, Dusty has seemed to be trying to jam a square peg into a round hole.

Raisor
04-05-2008, 11:29 AM
Dusty's explanation, from Fay:

"I didn't want to take him out," Baker said. "But I needed to get two inning out of (Jared) Burton. I don't want to use up the bullpen. This is four-game series."







How many years is Dusty signed for?

KoryMac5
04-05-2008, 11:39 AM
I am willing to give Dusty the benefit of the doubt for now. It has only been 4 games and I am sure he is getting used to his new ballclub. I am not as worried about his managerial choices as I am about this offense. Hopefully with Krivs help he can make better choices on his lineup, 2 LH 1st baseman is the worst choice so far.

Highlifeman21
04-05-2008, 11:41 AM
I am willing to give Dusty the benefit of the doubt for now. It has only been 4 games and I am sure he is getting used to his new ballclub. I am not as worried about his managerial choices as I am about this offense. Hopefully with Krivs help he can make better choices on his lineup, 2 LH 1st baseman is the worst choice so far.

The redundancy of Freel and Hopper trumps Votto and Hatteberg, IMO.

Nugget
04-05-2008, 11:55 AM
Dunn has the most powerful potential bat in the lineup but you also have to look at how he was playing last night. He did not really have the hot hand and really the 2,3 and 4 may have only come up again last night. At that point the REDS were only trying to stay in the game. Can't really fault the double switch given that its a 162 game season and the first game in a four game series.

OldRightHander
04-05-2008, 12:20 PM
Yep, pretty boneheaded move, but maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion if Fogg had turned in a solid outing. The game still hinges on solid pitching. Maybe preventing Philly from plating 8 runs would have gone a long way toward winning the game.

puca
04-05-2008, 12:20 PM
If the primary goal was to save the bullpen, he should have let Affeldt pitch another inning. If the primary goal was to win the game then pulling Dunn was a bad move. And to top it off he was asking Burton to do something (pitch 2 innings) that he had never done before at the ML level.

The pitcher's slot was not guaranteed to even come to bat in the 6th inning. Dunn's slot WAS guaranteed to come up later in the game. How dumb would this move have looked if the Reds went down 1,2,3 in the 6th or if Burton couldn't pitch 2 innings?

puca
04-05-2008, 12:22 PM
Yep, pretty boneheaded move, but maybe we wouldn't be having this discussion if Fogg had turned in a solid outing. The game still hinges on solid pitching. Maybe preventing Philly from plating 8 runs would have gone a long way toward winning the game.

I've been signing that song all along. Fogg is not a bullpen saver, just the opposite. Even on his best days he can't be expected to pitch more than 5 innings.

Raisor
04-05-2008, 01:00 PM
What was the response to the move from the call-in shows there in Cincy?

KronoRed
04-05-2008, 02:06 PM
Haven't heard but I bet it's well loved, Dunn isn't clutch and would never get a big hit when the team is behind you know ;)

The real isssue is Dusty doesn't see Dunn as the Reds best offsneive threat, if he did he wouldn't have him in the 5th slot.

How many years is Dusty signed for?

Three, get comfy.

Falls City Beer
04-05-2008, 02:10 PM
I think it might be that Dusty views Griffey, and not Dunn, as the straw that stirs this offense.

Hopefully, it won't take long for Griffey (or Dunn) to disabuse him of that notion. In all the years Dusty had Bonds, never once did I see or hear about him removing him in the sixth behind by only 3 runs.

Well, Dust, while this team doesn't have Bonds, the next closest thing they have is Dunn. Respect that fact when making substitutions.

jojo
04-05-2008, 03:13 PM
What was the response to the move from the call-in shows there in Cincy?

They think Chad Johnson should either be traded or Cincy hates him because of racism though somehow its Nancy Zimpher's fault too because she drives a Taureg but isn't as fun to fantasize about having an extramarital affair with as the local weather personalities.....

Or something like that.

LoganBuck
04-05-2008, 03:34 PM
Dunn pulled for a pinch runner today in the ninth. Freel replaced him.

I am still not ok with it, but at least I can understand it today.

wheels
04-05-2008, 06:45 PM
I'll tell you what.

If this club makes the playoffs some time over the next three years, it will be a scary sight with Baker at the helm making descisions like these.

This is some frighteningly awful stuff.

Jpup
04-05-2008, 06:51 PM
I'll tell you what.

If this club makes the playoffs some time over the next three years, it will be a scary sight with Baker at the helm making descisions like these.

This is some frighteningly awful stuff.

I really think he did it just to get Freel in the lineup. That's all I got.