PDA

View Full Version : ETA on Belisle?



WMR
04-05-2008, 04:53 PM
Anyone know when Belisle is expected to be available to be called up?

What will be the corresponding move when he IS ready? Can Fogg be sent to AAA?

fearofpopvol1
04-05-2008, 04:55 PM
I thought he was close to being ready? But maybe not. I would rush to send Fogg to AAA. I'd let Belisle start at least a couple of times in AAA and then I would push him out.

savafan
04-05-2008, 05:38 PM
Wouldn't Fogg have to clear waivers first before he could be outrighted?

Jpup
04-05-2008, 05:42 PM
Wouldn't Fogg have to clear waivers first before he could be outrighted?

Who's going to pick him up? Other than Washington, I'm not sure he'd find a job.

savafan
04-05-2008, 05:44 PM
Who's going to pick him up? Other than Washington, I'm not sure he'd find a job.

Probably not, but you might be surprised.

WMR
04-05-2008, 05:47 PM
That'd be great if someone else picked him up. They'd get to pay the pro-rated portion of his million dollar salary, I assume. Would give us a bit more payflex going down the stretch. I get the feeling the Reds are right up against it right now as far as their player budget is concerned.

Jpup
04-05-2008, 05:58 PM
That'd be great if someone else picked him up. They'd get to pay the pro-rated portion of his million dollar salary, I assume. Would give us a bit more payflex going down the stretch. I get the feeling the Reds are right up against it right now as far as their player budget is concerned.

I would expect that the Reds would have to pay all of it. I don't think the salary would be prorated.

PuffyPig
04-05-2008, 06:23 PM
Fogg could only be sent down if he had options left. I don't know if he does.

Even if he had options,he could only be sent down with his permission. I doubt he would give it. If he did give it, he would not have to pass through waivers.

dougdirt
04-05-2008, 06:25 PM
Belisle starts tonight for Sarasota. It will be interesting to see how he does.

WMR
04-05-2008, 06:32 PM
I would expect that the Reds would have to pay all of it. I don't think the salary would be prorated.

Are you sure about that? It was my understanding that if he was placed on waivers, any team that picked him up off the waiver wire would be responsible for the pro-rated amount of his salary based on how many games remained in the season.

savafan
04-05-2008, 06:52 PM
Are you sure about that? It was my understanding that if he was placed on waivers, any team that picked him up off the waiver wire would be responsible for the pro-rated amount of his salary based on how many games remained in the season.

I'm pretty sure you're right WMR

Benihana
04-05-2008, 07:15 PM
I think Belisle can't come back soon enough. I would let him have 1 or 2 outings in AAA after tonight, and assuming they go well enough (and Fogg continues to struggle), I would insert Belisle into Fogg's spot in the rotation.

I would re-evaluate the bullpen situation at that point, and if Fogg seems like a more viable option than Mercker, Lincoln or Coffey, I would keep Fogg in the pen and DFA whoever is struggling the most.

Assuming Belisle joins the rotation in late April/early May, I would then give him until the All-Star Break to prove that he belongs in the rotation. If he pitches like he did in ST, I would let Maloney have his shot after the break, provided Maloney doesn't continue to struggle in Louisville like he did today. The next option would of course be Homer Bailey, but I'd want to make sure Homer is really ready this time around before throwing him to the wolves.

IslandRed
04-05-2008, 07:26 PM
Are you sure about that? It was my understanding that if he was placed on waivers, any team that picked him up off the waiver wire would be responsible for the pro-rated amount of his salary based on how many games remained in the season.

If he's claimed on waivers, you're right. They'd be claiming him contract intact, so they'd pay whatever part the Reds hadn't paid yet. But if he's not claimed and is simply released, anyone who picked him up after that would only have to pay him the MLB minimum with the Reds responsible for the rest. Of course, with Fogg it's not a big difference dollar-wise.

Caveat Emperor
04-05-2008, 07:34 PM
There's no way the team cuts on Fogg after 1 crummy start -- he'll have to tank at least a month before they make a rotation move.

More than likely, Fogg stays in the rotation until Bailey is ready.

OnBaseMachine
04-05-2008, 10:50 PM
Belisle made a rehab start tonight for Sarasota and put up this line:

8.2 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 3 K, 19 GO/4 FO

Give him another rehab start or two and then bring him up to replace Josh Fogg.

redsfan4445
04-05-2008, 11:22 PM
Belisle made a rehab start tonight for Sarasota and put up this line:

8.2 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 3 K, 19 GO/4 FO

Give him another rehab start or two and then bring him up to replace Josh Fogg.

man i wish he would be consistent like that up here!!

Redmachine2003
04-05-2008, 11:32 PM
What ever he did to get the 19 GO's I hope he keeps it up, WOW! Not to mention he had a perfect game through 6 innings gave up a triple to lead of the 7th and a single in the 9th.

Blitz Dorsey
04-05-2008, 11:54 PM
I think playing with someone his age like Drew Stubbs made Belisle feel right at home. (I keed, I keed.)

Was just about to say let's not rush Josh Fogg out of the rotation just yet. He is a solid veteran with decent career W-L record and ERA. He's not great, but he's much better than the No. 5 starters we've had here recently (I consider Volquez the No. 4). However, if Belisle keeps this up -- even though it's just against high-A hitters -- we need to stick him in the rotation and put Fogger in long relief. No way you release a guy like Josh Fogg who can be a good swingman and get back in the rotation if there are injuries and/or if Bailey is still not ready. Don't forget about depth! We need it.

marcshoe
04-06-2008, 12:02 AM
While I'm not sure that Fogg is much better than anyone (except maybe Dumatrait), I don't see that the Reds will be in a hurry to release him just yet. They can't be surprised at his outing last night. That was simply Josh Fogg, the way he pitches is hardly a secret. He has been pitching terribly while winning around ten games a year--this is exactly what the Reds paid for.

I'd like to think that they'll at least ease him out of the rotation when Belisle gets back, but I'm not looking for them to dump him on the refuse pile too quickly.

WebScorpion
04-07-2008, 05:28 PM
Belisle made a rehab start tonight for Sarasota and put up this line:

8.2 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 BB, 3 K, 19 GO/4 FO

Give him another rehab start or two and then bring him up to replace Josh Fogg.

That's what a Major League pitcher SHOULD do against an A-ball lineup. Fogg is a solid .500 Major League pitcher...pitches just well enough to give a good offense a 50-50 chance of winning. He lost the first one, so he's DUE! Conveniently, after his next start (where he's due a win) his slot in the rotation is our next day off!

I'd like to see Belisle's other rehab starts against a little stiffer competition, if possible. Either way, when he comes up I'm guessing Fogg becomes the swing man in the 'pen.

TRF
04-07-2008, 05:32 PM
Someone has to go to make room for MB. Fogg is the obvious choice. Everyone else in the pen is pitching fine, at least so far.

flyer85
04-07-2008, 05:41 PM
my guess is not anytime soon, Fogg will get the opportunity until there is no doubt.

TRF
04-07-2008, 05:42 PM
my guess is not anytime soon, Fogg will get the opportunity until there is no doubt.

ahem.

Amateurs on an internet message board have already figured out what Josh Fogg is. Why is it Dusty/Krivsky cannot?

camisadelgolf
04-07-2008, 05:57 PM
Because Fogg has at least five years of Major League service, the Reds would need his consent to send him to the minors.

BRM
04-07-2008, 05:59 PM
Because Fogg has at least five years of Major League service, the Reds would need his consent to send him to the minors.

I don't think anyone meant to send him to the minors. I expect he'll get released if he continues to stink.

TRF
04-07-2008, 06:00 PM
Because Fogg has at least five years of Major League service, the Reds would need his consent to send him to the minors.

Do they need his consent to DFA him?

Cyclone792
04-07-2008, 06:02 PM
To answer WMR's question ... so long as Fogg is in the rotation, Belisle's ETA is "not soon enough."

lollipopcurve
04-07-2008, 06:04 PM
Amateurs on an internet message board have already figured out what Josh Fogg is. Why is it Dusty/Krivsky cannot?

He's shown he's good for 30 starts and an ERA around 5. And he cost a million. Take a look at what he did for the Rockies down the stretch last year. That's Josh Fogg too.

KronoRed
04-07-2008, 06:06 PM
I don't think anyone meant to send him to the minors. I expect he'll get released if he continues to stink.

While the Reds have shown they won't let cash stand in the way of a well deserved dumping they usually wait awhile before dropping the ax.

camisadelgolf
04-07-2008, 06:06 PM
Do they need his consent to DFA him?

Absolutely not. After being DFAed, the Reds could trade him (and his salary). If no one wants to trade for Fogg with his current salary, then he would become a free agent, or if both parties wish, he could go to the minor leagues. If a team wants to sign him as a free agent, they would only need to pay him a pro-rated portion of the league minimum salary.

BRM
04-07-2008, 06:08 PM
While the Reds have shown they won't let cash stand in the way of a well deserved dumping they usually wait awhile before dropping the ax.

I agree. They won't cut him anytime soon. Especially if he manages to have a couple of decent games mixed in there.

RedlegJake
04-07-2008, 06:24 PM
The problem with Fogg is that he'll pitch just good enough just often enough to keep the FO on the teeter totter, and just bad enough just often enough to never be a real asset.

fearofpopvol1
04-07-2008, 06:30 PM
Fogg is not the worst insurance policy ever. It's a long season. Injuries can happen and at worst, he can be a long reliever/mop up guy. I know Fogg isn't a great pitcher, but he's not a bad guy to have as depth.

TRF
04-07-2008, 06:30 PM
Fogg has a track record. He's not going to suddenly get better. Belisle on the other hand, has a one year track record, and very interesting peripherals. He's got room to improve. And he needs to be in the rotation ASAP. He's not a rotation savior, but he has a chance to make the #5 starter not suck.

mth123
04-07-2008, 09:14 PM
Absolutely not. After being DFAed, the Reds could trade him (and his salary). If no one wants to trade for Fogg with his current salary, then he would become a free agent, or if both parties wish, he could go to the minor leagues. If a team wants to sign him as a free agent, they would only need to pay him a pro-rated portion of the league minimum salary.

As a free agent who signed a major league deal, I don't think he can be traded until June. Not sure how that impacts DFA. I think they just have to outright release him w/o the 10 day DFA period.

camisadelgolf
04-08-2008, 01:15 PM
As a free agent who signed a major league deal, I don't think he can be traded until June. Not sure how that impacts DFA. I think they just have to outright release him w/o the 10 day DFA period.

You're right. He may not be traded before June 15th without consent. I believe he still may be DFAed, though.

Benihana
04-08-2008, 01:25 PM
Keep Fogg in the pen in a swing/spot role. I think once Belisle is ready, he moves into the rotation and either Lincoln or Coffey is sent down/DFA'd. My money is on Lincoln.

If Fogg continues to struggle in that role, than you DFA him once Bray is ready to join the team, and Affeldt becomes your swing/spot guy.

Cyclone792
04-08-2008, 01:29 PM
Fogg has a track record. He's not going to suddenly get better. Belisle on the other hand, has a one year track record, and very interesting peripherals. He's got room to improve. And he needs to be in the rotation ASAP. He's not a rotation savior, but he has a chance to make the #5 starter not suck.

When I think of Josh Fogg this season, I'm reminded of the awful images of both Jason Bere and Steve Avery in 1999.

Caveat Emperor
04-08-2008, 01:42 PM
When I think of Josh Fogg this season, I'm reminded of the awful images of both Jason Bere and Steve Avery in 1999.

To hell with that. I see Dave Williams and Jimmy Haynes, and I think I'm being nice.

TRF
04-08-2008, 02:26 PM
When I think of Josh Fogg this season, I'm reminded of the awful images of both Jason Bere and Steve Avery in 1999.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=averyst01&year=1999&t=p

Though my birthday (May 23) of 1999 Avery was an enigma of wildly fluctuating BB & K totals. He single handedly kept the rotation afloat. Till he blew up, which strangely coincided with a resurgence in the Reds offense. He was probably robbed of 3 wins early. His arm had to be killing him, but it was one gutsy performance. Bere on the other hand was a whiner.

M2
04-08-2008, 02:51 PM
Steve Avery gets my vote for most brilliant pitcher ever. He survived in the majors for a few years by refusing to throw strikes.

REDREAD
04-08-2008, 03:36 PM
There's no way the team cuts on Fogg after 1 crummy start -- he'll have to tank at least a month before they make a rotation move.

More than likely, Fogg stays in the rotation until Bailey is ready.


yes, and quite frankly, it would be unwise to cut Fogg now.
There's no guarantee Belisle will be any better over the course of the season.

Also, the bullpen is still precarious.. Will Mercker and Lincoln hold up all season? We may need Belisle to eat innings out of the pen.

Fogg's salary is totally insignificant. Who cares if the Reds save some money if he's claimed. We need pitching depth, and it would not be a good idea to cut Fogg after one start. It's a total overreaction to cut Fogg now.

REDREAD
04-08-2008, 03:41 PM
Another thing to keep in mind with regard to releasing Fogg immeidately.

It will hurt the Reds in future negotiations with FAs if they are so willing to cut a guy after one start. In other words, it will make it more difficult to pull in a mid level FA guy next year at a low salary.

M2
04-08-2008, 03:51 PM
I assume the working early season plan (through June) will be to have one of Belisle/Fogg in long relief in case someone gets injured or is ineffective. At least that would be the sensible approach. What the Reds probably want to avoid is having to go down to AAA if they need another starter option.

TRF
04-08-2008, 03:53 PM
I assume the working early season plan (through June) will be to have one of Belisle/Fogg in long relief in case someone gets injured or is ineffective. At least that would be the sensible approach. What the Reds probably want to avoid is having to go down to AAA if they need another starter option.
yeah, but someone on the 25 man has to be jettisoned for that to happen. I'm ok with Castro being the guy. I wonder if Dusty is ok with that.

BRM
04-08-2008, 03:58 PM
yeah, but someone on the 25 man has to be jettisoned for that to happen. I'm ok with Castro being the guy. I wonder if Dusty is ok with that.

That would give the Reds 13 pitchers. It won't be Castro going to make room for Belisle.

TRF
04-08-2008, 04:36 PM
That would give the Reds 13 pitchers. It won't be Castro going to make room for Belisle.

exactly. So unless it's Fogg, it has to be one of the relievers. Affeldt won't be the guy, and neither will Merker. Coffey seems safe for now. Lincoln? Weathers? Burton and Cordero seem untouchable.

So I say DFA Fogg. Might as well do Castro and get a better bat too.

bucksfan2
04-08-2008, 04:46 PM
The Reds are not going to DFA Fogg this early in the season. Fogg may not be the best pitcher but the Reds knew what they were getting when they signed him. He is a back of the rotation pitcher that gives them depth. I see Belisle spending time in AAA when he comes off the DL. Marty and Jeff were talking this spring about how the Reds were disappointed with Belisle over the spring. The only guy who I can forsee Belisle replacing is Coffey. Bray is waiting in AAA to replace either Affeldt or Merker if either have to spend time on the DL, Lincoln will stay with the big club unless he blows up and Weathers, Burton and Cordero seem like locks to stay in the rotation as long as possible.

IMO Belisle is in AAA until a righty reliever gets injured and is in competition with Bailey for the first guy called up to start when needed.

camisadelgolf
04-08-2008, 04:55 PM
I think there's a reason that Lincoln was chosen over a prospect out of spring training. I think it comes down to the waivers/options game. Lincoln seems like one of those guys who you could sneak through waivers to Louisville. He's over 30 years old, has a history of injuries, and doesn't have a history of success.

REDREAD
04-08-2008, 05:30 PM
yeah, but someone on the 25 man has to be jettisoned for that to happen. I'm ok with Castro being the guy. I wonder if Dusty is ok with that.

I think the Reds could stretch Belisle's "rehab" to 30 days or so.
That would give them time to see if guys like Lincoln are worth keeping.

I know Belisle gets a lot of love on this board, but I really see him as being mediocre at best. Naturally, I don't want him discarded, but I don't see him as a difference maker. In other words, I'm in no hurry to see him back.

princeton
04-08-2008, 05:32 PM
I think there's a reason that Lincoln was chosen over a prospect out of spring training. I think it comes down to the waivers/options game. Lincoln seems like one of those guys who you could sneak through waivers to Louisville. He's over 30 years old, has a history of injuries, and doesn't have a history of success.

if he's throwing 95 and making no money, he's not sneaking through waivers

M2
04-08-2008, 05:53 PM
I know Belisle gets a lot of love on this board, but I really see him as being mediocre at best.

Which makes him light years better than Fogg.

Chip R
04-08-2008, 05:59 PM
I'd like to see Belisle against PIT. He was lights out against them last year.

Highlifeman21
04-08-2008, 06:00 PM
Which makes him light years better than Fogg.

Assume you have 3 options.

Matt Belisle, Josh Fogg, Homer Bailey.

Whom do you choose, and why?

I would choose them in the order I listed.

Belisle, b/c I think he's a better pitcher than Fogg, and is more developed than Bailey, while having less upside.

Then Fogg, b/c if the choice is between Bailey and Fogg, why let Bailey get his brains beat in at the MLB level while essentially learning on the job? Fogg is a cheap stop gap for a team that isn't making the playoffs. I fully expect Fogg to be at best a mopup guy for the Reds in 2009.

Once Bailey lives up to all of his hype, and learns some command and control, he should easily jump to the head of this 3 arm class.

M2
04-08-2008, 06:07 PM
Assume you have 3 options.

Matt Belisle, Josh Fogg, Homer Bailey.

Whom do you choose, and why?

I would choose them in the order I listed.

Me too. It's why I think the Reds will look to keep both Belisle and Fogg in the mix.

OnBaseMachine
04-10-2008, 11:23 PM
Belisle made a rehab start in Chattanooga tonight:

9 IP, 7 H, 2 ER, 0 BB, 3 K, 15 GO/9 FO

Spring~Fields
04-11-2008, 12:05 AM
D. Ross C Mar 31, 2008 15-day Back spasms
Á. González SS Mar 21, 2008 15-day Compression fracture, left knee
M. Belisle SP Mar 21, 2008 15-day

Someone update my memory please. How does it work when they are on the 15 day DL? Can they stay on the DL longer or are they due back when the 15 days are up?

camisadelgolf
04-11-2008, 01:23 AM
D. Ross C Mar 31, 2008 15-day Back spasms
Á. González SS Mar 21, 2008 15-day Compression fracture, left knee
M. Belisle SP Mar 21, 2008 15-day

Someone update my memory please. How does it work when they are on the 15 day DL? Can they stay on the DL longer or are they due back when the 15 days are up?

I believe pitchers may be on rehab assignments for 30 days and hitters for 15 days. I'm pulling those numbers out of my you-know-what, though, so don't take my word as gospel. I do remember that the rule is different for hitters and pitchers, though.

OnBaseMachine
04-11-2008, 02:04 AM
Belisle pitches Lookouts to win

By: David Uchiyama

Matt Belisle belittled the Birmingham Barons.

The Cincinnati Reds pitcher made a rehab start on his way back to the parent club and provided the Chattanooga Lookouts pitching staff with a bit of rest Thursday night.

Belisle capped his complete-game performance by snaring a comebacker in the Lookouts’ 6-3 victory at AT&T Field.

“He threw the ball outstanding tonight,” Lookouts manager Mike Goff said. “If there was any question about his health, I think it was answered tonight.”

The 27-year-old former Braves prospect allowed two earned runs, struck out three and walked no one. After allowing a first-inning run, he set down 12 Barons in a row. The 13th got a broken-bat single.

“I thought it was a good outing, but I don’t know about great,” said Belisle, who was put on the Reds’ disabled list on March 31 with a sore right forearm. “I thought I’d mix it up and pound the zone. I got away with a few mistakes.”

Belisle’s first pitch of the night motored at 92 mph, and he was still touching 89 on the radar gun in the final inning. He allowed the Lookouts relief pitchers to do nothing but catch. Not a one warmed up.

“That was the biggest thing he did for us,” Goff said. “Our bullpen was worked pretty hard in the first seven games of the season. What he did for our bullpen was huge.”

Belisle watched the exciting fifth inning from the dugout and had a movie scene pop into his head.

With runners on the corners, the Lookouts’ Eric Eymann crushed a shot to the left-field wall. B.J. Szymanski, motoring around the bases, wound up two steps behind Tonys Gutierrez.

In a bang-bang play, Cole Armstrong tagged out Gutierrez but Szymanski scored, drawing cheers for the excitement and boos for the call.

“I saw B.J. running around quick and I immediately thought of ‘Major League,’ the movie,” said Belisle, who made 30 starts for the Reds last year. “I haven’t seen that in quite a while. It’s always a fun play.”

Gutierrez added the final run with a shot over the right-field pavilion that wanted to reach the Tennessee Aquarium.

“He’s had some pretty big hits for us,” Goff said. “That home run jumped out in a hurry.”

But no faster than Belisle’s reaction time to snare the final pitch of a fine performance.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2008/apr/11/belisle-pitches-lookouts-win/

OnBaseMachine
04-11-2008, 06:36 PM
Matt Belisle's next start will be for Louisville. Belisle through a complete game for Chattanooga Thursday. He allowed two earned on seven hits -- no walks, three strikeouts.

In the case of Ross, he can be on rehab for up to 20 days. Beilise can be on the rehab for up to 30 days. Ross' rehab will be up April 22, Belisle's May 4.

Two other things to remember: Just because a player's rehab is up, he doesn't have to be re-instated, and Belisle has an option.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

Spring~Fields
04-11-2008, 07:13 PM
Matt Belisle's next start will be for Louisville. Belisle through a complete game for Chattanooga Thursday. He allowed two earned on seven hits -- no walks, three strikeouts.

In the case of Ross, he can be on rehab for up to 20 days. Beilise can be on the rehab for up to 30 days. Ross' rehab will be up April 22, Belisle's May 4.

Two other things to remember: Just because a player's rehab is up, he doesn't have to be re-instated, and Belisle has an option.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

Thanks guys for the clarification.

So Belisle can stay longer and get a pretty good chance to get his feet under him, work on some things and build confidence in his pitching. I like that especially with his longevity showing inning wise in Sarasota and last night in Chattanooga. I was thinking that he might string together a few more good outings and that Belisle and the Reds might have something very good from him this year.