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Hap
04-06-2008, 08:19 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a very solid infielder. He should get the bulk of the time at first base after A-Go is healthy and Votto (time to go to Japan) goes to AAA.

Brandon Phillips may become better than Joe Morgan.

Griffey's HR was vintage Griffey -- a laser beam with a little bit of a hook at the end.

Dusty Baker knows how to manage a bullpen.

Corey Patterson could be an all-star this year.

Edinson Volquez throws gas, however he will have his struggles this year at times with command.

flyer85
04-06-2008, 08:23 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a very solid infielder. He should get the bulk of the time at shortstop after A-Go is healthy
fixed

serious amount of hyperbole in there.

MartyFan
04-06-2008, 09:05 PM
You honestly think Votto should go to Japan? Seriously?

savafan
04-06-2008, 09:07 PM
Votto's not a great fielding first baseman. Then again, neither is the Mad Hatteberg.

KittyDuran
04-06-2008, 09:17 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a very solid infielder. He should get the bulk of the time at first base after A-Go is healthy and Votto (time to go to Japan) goes to AAA.

Brandon Phillips may become better than Joe Morgan.

Griffey's HR was vintage Griffey -- a laser beam with a little bit of a hook at the end.

Dusty Baker knows how to manage a bullpen.

Corey Patterson could be an all-star this year.

Edinson Volquez throws gas, however he will have his struggles this year at times with command.I was one section over in 520!

camisadelgolf
04-06-2008, 09:17 PM
When I think of players who will have had better careers than Joe Morgan's, I think of Alex Rodriguez, Vladimir Guerrero, Albert Pujols, Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Gary Sheffield, Ken Griffey, Jr., and maybe some others like Jim Thome, Mark Teixeira, David Wright, Joe Mauer, Hanley Ramirez, Ryan Braun, Brian McCann, and Grady Sizemore. However, when it's all said and done, I'd be absolutely shocked if Brandon Phillips were anywhere near the level of Joe Morgan.

savafan
04-06-2008, 09:18 PM
However, when it's all said and done, I'd be absolutely shocked if Brandon Phillips were anywhere near the level of Joe Morgan.

I honestly wouldn't. His season last year was better than any one season Morgan ever had.

Screwball
04-06-2008, 09:22 PM
I honestly wouldn't. His season last year was better than any one season Morgan ever had.

Joe Morgan's 1976 MVP season:

.320/.444/.576/1.020 with 27 HR, 30 2B, 111 RBI, 60 SB and 187 OPS+. I highly doubt Phillips ever sniffs a season like that.

oneupper
04-06-2008, 09:24 PM
I honestly wouldn't. His season last year was better than any one season Morgan ever had.

Every one of Morgan's six seasons from 1972 to 1977 was better than Phillips' 2007.

savafan
04-06-2008, 09:26 PM
Okay, but you also have to look at the team around Morgan as well.

flyer85
04-06-2008, 09:26 PM
I honestly wouldn't. His season last year was better than any one season Morgan ever had.Morgan OPSed 1020 in 76, was league MVP and with a 444 OBP. I believe it was James that had it, when adjusted for era/park effects was one of the top 10 offensive season in the history of baseball

MWM
04-06-2008, 09:27 PM
I honestly wouldn't. His season last year was better than any one season Morgan ever had.

Come on, sava. Please tell us all you were kidding.

savafan
04-06-2008, 09:28 PM
Come on, sava. Please tell us all you were kidding.

Okay, I was kidding. Or at the very least, I was quite wrong. :D

cincrazy
04-06-2008, 09:28 PM
When I think of players who will have had better careers than Joe Morgan's, I think of Alex Rodriguez, Vladimir Guerrero, Albert Pujols, Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Gary Sheffield, Ken Griffey, Jr., and maybe some others like Jim Thome, Mark Teixeira, David Wright, Joe Mauer, Hanley Ramirez, Ryan Braun, Brian McCann, and Grady Sizemore. However, when it's all said and done, I'd be absolutely shocked if Brandon Phillips were anywhere near the level of Joe Morgan.

I don't think Sheffield has had a better career than Morgan all around, and McCann and probably even Sizemore is probably a stretch at this point. Joe Morgan is one of the top 5 second basemen in big league history. You don't stumble across those all that often, whereas an outfielder like Sizemore comes along quite often.

MWM
04-06-2008, 09:33 PM
Methinks some people in this thread aren't really grasping just how great a player Joe Morgan really was.

Ravenlord
04-06-2008, 09:35 PM
I honestly wouldn't. His season last year was better than any one season Morgan ever had.

oh vey...


Phillips 2007
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS OBP SLG AVG
650 107 187 26 6 30 94 33 109 32 8 331 485 288

Joe Morgan 1971-1977
Year AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1971 583 87 149 27 11 13 56 88 52 40 8 351 407 256
1972 552 122 161 23 4 16 73 115 44 58 17 417 435 292
1973 576 116 167 35 2 26 82 111 61 67 15 406 493 290
1974 512 107 150 31 3 22 67 120 69 58 12 427 494 293
1975 498 107 163 27 6 17 94 132 52 67 10 466 508 327
1976 472 113 151 30 5 27 111 114 41 60 9 444 576 320
1977 521 113 150 21 6 22 78 117 58 49 10 417 478 288

RedsManRick
04-06-2008, 09:36 PM
Re: Phillips. Behold the power of counting stats. Morgan is one of the best 2B of all-time. Phillips should make a few all-star games.

camisadelgolf
04-06-2008, 09:48 PM
I don't think Sheffield has had a better career than Morgan all around, and McCann and probably even Sizemore is probably a stretch at this point. Joe Morgan is one of the top 5 second basemen in big league history. You don't stumble across those all that often, whereas an outfielder like Sizemore comes along quite often.

I'll concede that Morgan is better than Sheffield relative to position, but in regards to Sizemore, he is only 25 years old and already has three 20/20 seasons under his belt. He plays a good center field and in his prime, could be capabale of consistently putting up a .900 OPS or higher. People like Sizemore come around somewhat often, but it's very rare for them to stick around. If Sizemore sticks around and continues on his current pace, I think he'll be every bit as good as Morgan.

Always Red
04-06-2008, 09:50 PM
I honestly wouldn't. His season last year was better than any one season Morgan ever had.

sava, your inexperience is showing...I love BP, but Joe Morgan was one of the best I have ever seen. See the stats above- and pay close attention to the OBP...

cincrazy
04-06-2008, 09:51 PM
Methinks some people in this thread aren't really grasping just how great a player Joe Morgan really was.

Amen :thumbup:

Caveat Emperor
04-06-2008, 09:53 PM
Methinks some people in this thread aren't really grasping just how great a player Joe Morgan really was.

And those that never saw him play need to look long and hard at those numbers.

Six consecutive seasons with an OBP north of .400. His numbers in 1975 and 1976 are just sickening.

Always Red
04-06-2008, 09:53 PM
Methinks some people in this thread aren't really grasping just how great a player Joe Morgan really was.

Maybe the younger crowd is confusing Joe Morgan the analyst (pedestrian) with Joe Morgan the baseball player (no doubt Hall of Famer)??

Ravenlord
04-06-2008, 10:01 PM
I don't think Sheffield has had a better career than Morgan all around. . .interesting comparison.


Joe Morgan
Year AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1963 25 5 6 0 1 0 3 5 5 1 0 367 320 240
1964 37 4 7 0 0 0 0 6 7 0 1 302 189 189
1965 601 100 163 22 12 14 40 97 77 20 9 373 418 271
1966 425 60 121 14 8 5 42 89 43 11 8 410 391 285
1967 494 73 136 27 11 6 42 81 51 29 5 378 411 275
1968 20 6 5 0 1 0 0 7 4 3 0 444 350 250
1969 535 94 126 18 5 15 43 110 74 49 14 365 372 236
1970 548 102 147 28 9 8 52 102 55 42 13 383 396 268
1971 583 87 149 27 11 13 56 88 52 40 8 351 407 256
1972 552 122 161 23 4 16 73 115 44 58 17 417 435 292
1973 576 116 167 35 2 26 82 111 61 67 15 406 493 290
1974 512 107 150 31 3 22 67 120 69 58 12 427 494 293
1975 498 107 163 27 6 17 94 132 52 67 10 466 508 327
1976 472 113 151 30 5 27 111 114 41 60 9 444 576 320
1977 521 113 150 21 6 22 78 117 58 49 10 417 478 288
1978 441 68 104 27 0 13 75 79 40 19 5 347 385 236
1979 436 70 109 26 1 9 32 93 45 28 6 379 376 250
1980 461 66 112 17 5 11 49 93 47 24 6 367 373 243
1981 308 47 74 16 1 8 31 66 37 14 5 371 377 240
1982 463 68 134 19 4 14 61 85 60 24 4 400 438 289
1983 404 72 93 20 1 16 59 89 54 18 2 370 403 230
1984 365 50 89 21 0 6 43 66 39 8 3 356 351 244
Total 9277 1650 2517 449 96 268 1133 1865 1015 689 162 392 427 371

Gary Sheffield
Year AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS OBP SLG AVG
1988 80 12 19 1 0 4 12 7 7 3 1 295 400 238
1989 368 34 91 18 0 5 32 27 33 10 6 303 337 247
1990 487 67 143 30 1 10 67 44 41 25 10 350 421 294
1991 175 25 34 12 2 2 22 19 15 5 5 277 320 194
1992 557 87 184 34 3 33 100 48 40 5 6 385 580 330
1993 494 67 145 20 5 20 73 47 64 17 5 361 476 294
1994 322 61 89 16 1 27 78 51 50 12 6 380 584 276
1995 213 46 69 8 0 16 46 55 45 19 4 467 587 324
1996 519 118 163 33 1 42 120 142 66 16 9 465 624 314
1997 444 86 111 22 1 21 71 121 79 11 7 424 446 250
1998 437 73 132 27 2 22 85 95 46 22 7 410 522 302
1999 549 103 165 20 0 34 101 101 64 11 5 407 523 301
2000 501 105 163 24 3 43 109 101 74 4 6 438 643 325
2001 515 98 160 28 2 36 100 94 67 10 4 417 583 311
2002 492 82 151 26 0 25 84 72 53 12 2 404 512 307
2003 576 126 190 37 2 39 132 86 55 18 4 419 604 330
2004 573 117 166 30 1 36 121 92 83 5 6 393 534 290
2005 584 104 170 27 0 34 123 78 76 10 2 379 512 291
2006 151 22 45 5 0 6 25 13 16 5 1 355 450 298
2007 494 107 131 20 1 25 75 84 71 22 5 378 462 265
2008 7 0 1 0 0 0 1 5 1 0 0 500 143 143
Total 8538 1540 2522 438 25 480 1577 1382 1043 242 101 397 521 295

WMR
04-06-2008, 10:09 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a very solid infielder. He should get the bulk of the time at first base after A-Go is healthy and Votto (time to go to Japan) goes to AAA.

Brandon Phillips may become better than Joe Morgan.

Griffey's HR was vintage Griffey -- a laser beam with a little bit of a hook at the end.

Dusty Baker knows how to manage a bullpen.

Corey Patterson could be an all-star this year.

Edinson Volquez throws gas, however he will have his struggles this year at times with command.

How far back were you sitting in 519? I'm hoping the very last row after reading some of these predictions.

deltachi8
04-06-2008, 10:10 PM
I am wearing a nice, black Toronto Blue Jays hat right now.

i will offer to eat said hat should Phillips reach Joe Morgan's level of play on the field.

George Anderson
04-06-2008, 10:13 PM
One thing I noticed today (section 528) was the large amounts of people wearing Reds attire. It seemed way more common than usual.

Cyclone792
04-06-2008, 10:48 PM
Joe Morgan's the best second baseman the game has ever seen since Rogers Hornsby retired.

Brandon Phillips is a good player, and he's a good second sacker. But he wasn't even the best second baseman on the field Friday night, Saturday afternoon, Sunday afternoon, and likely tomorrow afternoon.

Needless to say, Phillips isn't anywhere near Joe Morgan, and it's doubtful he ever will be.

fearofpopvol1
04-06-2008, 10:58 PM
Here's an interesting question...

Do you think Utley can be as good as Morgan? Obviously, he won't be quite as good defensively, but offensively, he has a chance at being as good if not better over a full career.

camisadelgolf
04-06-2008, 11:01 PM
Overall, I think Utley is talented enough to be as good as Morgan. I think it comes down to durability.

redsrule2500
04-06-2008, 11:03 PM
I honestly wouldn't. His season last year was better than any one season Morgan ever had.

arguably. Look at Morgan's insane OBP/BA and then tell me that Brandon was superior last year.

Cyclone792
04-06-2008, 11:04 PM
Here's an interesting question...

Do you think Utley can be as good as Morgan? Obviously, he won't be quite as good defensively, but offensively, he has a chance at being as good if not better over a full career.

Doubtful.

Utley's problem, when comparing him historically to other great second basemen, will be that he didn't even reach the majors until age 24 and his first big season wasn't until age 26. For historical greatness, that's a pretty late arrival. By comparison, Joe Morgan already had three seasons with an OPS+ over 130 by the time he was 26.

For peak comparisons, Morgan had a six season stretch from 1972-77 that was simply disgusting too. Think of it like this ... take Chase Utley's 2007 season; it was outstanding. To match Morgan's peak, Utley would have to have four or five seasons better than his own 2007 season. Sure it's possible, but it's not very likely at all.

That's how great Morgan was.

fearofpopvol1
04-06-2008, 11:06 PM
Doubtful.

Utley's problem, when comparing him historically to other great second basemen, will be that he didn't even reach the majors until age 24 and his first big season wasn't until age 26. For historical greatness, that's a pretty late arrival. By comparison, Joe Morgan already had three seasons with an OPS+ over 130 by the time he was 26.

For peak comparisons, Morgan had a six season stretch from 1972-77 that was simply disgusting too. Think of it like this ... take Chase Utley's 2007 season; it was outstanding. To match Morgan's peak, Utley would have to have four or five seasons better than his own 2007 season. Sure it's possible, but it's not very likely at all.

That's how great Morgan was.

Those are definitely some valuable points, but I do think that Utley has a real chance to play the game longer (and at a higher level during his "elder" years) than Morgan did.

Raisor
04-06-2008, 11:20 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a very solid infielder. He should get the bulk of the time at first base after A-Go is healthy and Votto (time to go to Japan) goes to AAA.



ummmm, riiiight.

312/.347/.516 it's only (right under) 100 career ab's and everything, but still....

savafan
04-07-2008, 12:06 AM
Okay, I already admitted I was wrong...

Cedric
04-07-2008, 12:22 AM
I don't know if we need to start trashing Brandon Phillips because of someones weird opinion.

And Chase Utley has the range of my great Aunt. I guess you could just put Barry Bonds in the lineup at 2b and call him the best there if you want. It's really not fair comparing Phillips to Utley when Utley isn't even a decent 2b.

fearofpopvol1
04-07-2008, 12:24 AM
I don't know if we need to start trashing Brandon Phillips because of someones weird opinion.

And Chase Utley has the range of my great Aunt. I guess you could just put Barry Bonds in the lineup at 2b and call him the best there if you want. It's really not fair comparing Phillips to Utley when Utley isn't even a decent 2b.

.990 fielding % (last year) makes him top 5 in the league. I'd love to see your stats to back that statement up.

Phillips is superior to Utley defensively, but it's not by as big of a margin as you'd think and saying he "isn't even a decent 2B" is ludacrous.

MWM
04-07-2008, 12:26 AM
I don't know if we need to start trashing Brandon Phillips because of someones weird opinion.

Not sure what you're referring to, but there hasn't been any Phillips bashing. It's more about praising Joe Morgan. I don't think many people have much bad to sy about Brandon.

Ron Madden
04-07-2008, 12:30 AM
Jeff Keppinger is a very solid infielder. He should get the bulk of the time at first base after A-Go is healthy and Votto (time to go to Japan) goes to AAA.

I don't know why everyone is in such a hurry to send Votto down.

So far, Hatteberg hasn't done any better than Votto.

:confused:

top6
04-07-2008, 12:31 AM
Methinks some people in this thread aren't really grasping just how great a player Joe Morgan really was.
Not a lot of people do. In fact, even Joe Morgan seems too stubborn to appreciate just how great he was.

FWIW, Johnny Bench is also sort of underrated. I mean, everyone accepts that Morgan and Bench were great, but I sometimes think people don't appreciate just how amazing they were (and I am just talking numbers since I only saw both of them play at the tail end of their careers).

icehole3
04-07-2008, 06:35 AM
I agree, Phillips may equal Little Joe in the field and thats a big may...at the plate Morgan was ahead of Phillips.

LoganBuck
04-07-2008, 07:24 AM
I don't know why everyone is in such a hurry to send Votto down.

So far, Hatteberg hasn't done any better than Votto.

:confused:

They are buying into "DustyBall", I predicted that Castro would stay at Votto's expense, when Gonzalez comes back. I hate every ounce of that prediction, but who doesn't see it coming?

redsmetz
04-07-2008, 08:16 AM
They are buying into "DustyBall", I predicted that Castro would stay at Votto's expense, when Gonzalez comes back. I hate every ounce of that prediction, but who doesn't see it coming?

It's absurd to suggest that Castro will stay at Votto's expense. With regards to the 1st base situation, I don't see Hatte playing as the perceived "vet love", but rather playing two players who are off to slow starts to see which one presently kicks in. But I doubt that Votto will be sent to AAA - Dusty's a Votto backer and he'll get playing time as this season unfolds, IMO.

TRF
04-07-2008, 09:26 AM
leave! Sava... alone! sniff! what did he do to any of you!

<mascara streams down face>

dfs
04-07-2008, 09:50 AM
Jeff Keppinger is a very solid infielder.
Yes. Yes he is.

He should get the bulk of the time at first base after A-Go is healthy and Votto (time to go to Japan) goes to AAA.
....No. No I don't think so.


Brandon Phillips may become better than Joe Morgan.
No. No. Once you adjust for park and era, Morgan is one of the top 10 to ever play the game. By the time Morgan was the age Brandon Phillips is now, Joe had put up 3 full seasons with an OPS+ around 130 and two more of 110. Brandon Phillips has been above average exactly once producing an OPS+ of 105 last year.

That's not an insult to Phillips. It's like comparing Josh Bard to Johnny Bench. Bard is a nice little player. Bench was a bit more.


Griffey's HR was vintage Griffey -- a laser beam with a little bit of a hook at the end.
Yeah. It was nice. Better yet was when Keppinger took second because the Phillie infield fell asleep. That was awesome.


Dusty Baker knows how to manage a bullpen.
You know....It's too early to throw serious flower's Baker's way about that, but the early returns sure do look good. The only thing I would have questioned yesterday was putting Coffey in for the ninth instead of letting Lincoln rack up a 3 inning save. That's a quibble, Coffey could use the work.


Corey Patterson could be an all-star this year.
Yesterday I figured out that can't root for Corey Patterson, because in my head he is still a Cub. Maybe by June I'll be able to rethink that.


Edinson Volquez throws gas, however he will have his struggles this year at times with command.
Edinson is today's Danny Jackson. If the umpire gives him the inside corner on lefthanded batters, he's gonna be hard to hit. If the ump doesn't give him that corner, he's in for a long day.

RBA
04-07-2008, 10:11 AM
Looks like section 519 got a very good batch of beer. ;)

westofyou
04-07-2008, 10:13 AM
Brandon Phillips may become better than Joe Morgan.

At announcing?

Maybe

At sabermetric study?

Perhaps

Playing baseball??

Not close.

OldRightHander
04-07-2008, 10:19 AM
Another thing that stood out when I looked at those numbers was Morgan's K and BB numbers. The guy still hit for power and average and drew a lot more walks than Phillips would ever dream of. Phillips is good, but if they were both the same age today, I'd take Morgan hands down. I know one thing. I'd take his playing career over his announcing career any day.

MWM
04-07-2008, 10:31 AM
Hey sava, if nothing else you've given us all the opportunity to discuss the greatness of Joe Morgan and that needs to be done every so often, lest we forget. So for that, we're all thankful.

Cedric
04-07-2008, 11:27 AM
.990 fielding % (last year) makes him top 5 in the league. I'd love to see your stats to back that statement up.

Phillips is superior to Utley defensively, but it's not by as big of a margin as you'd think and saying he "isn't even a decent 2B" is ludacrous.

Fielding percentage is teh suck. And it is completely worthless at 2b.

IslandRed
04-07-2008, 11:58 AM
They are buying into "DustyBall", I predicted that Castro would stay at Votto's expense, when Gonzalez comes back. I hate every ounce of that prediction, but who doesn't see it coming?

There were also plenty of folks who were certain that Castro would be starting in Gonzalez' absence. Didn't happen. Castro is still on the roster for one reason -- to be the backup middle infielder -- and he's barely played, which suggests he's hardly essential to DustyBall. Once Gonzalez returns, Castro has no role on this team.

The Reds seem to be trying to do right by veteran fringe players, so the question becomes, would Castro accept an outright assignment to Louisville (the Reds probably wouldn't mind stashing him as an injury contingency) or would he ask to be released so he could try and catch on somewhere else? I'm just guessing he won't retire since he has a guaranteed deal for this year.

fearofpopvol1
04-07-2008, 02:56 PM
Fielding percentage is teh suck. And it is completely worthless at 2b.

Okay, well I'd love to see your defensive metrics studies to prove that Utley is below average. The guy has good range and if you're unable to see that, that's unfortunate for you.

Sea Ray
04-07-2008, 03:04 PM
They are buying into "DustyBall", I predicted that Castro would stay at Votto's expense, when Gonzalez comes back. I hate every ounce of that prediction, but who doesn't see it coming?

If Votto gets sent out when AGon comes back it's not Castro doing it. It's Votto's poor play that earned the demotion. Dusty can't give Votto and indefinite amount of time in the majors to get it together. He may have to say "we need some production out of 1B, go find your stroke in AAA."

Cedric
04-07-2008, 03:15 PM
Okay, well I'd love to your defensive metrics studies to prove that Utley is below average. The guy has good range and if you're unable to see that, that's unfortunate for you.

Not in my opinion. Defense is subjective. I'm not going to say it's unfortunate because you disagree with me. Even though it is :)

Ron Madden
04-07-2008, 03:18 PM
Hatteberg is doiing worse than Votto is. There is no reason to send Votto down, just yet.

fearofpopvol1
04-07-2008, 03:35 PM
Not in my opinion. Defense is subjective. I'm not going to say it's unfortunate because you disagree with me. Even though it is :)

It's subjective to a point, but you should still have some information to back up your claim, particularly if you're disputing the validity of fielding percentage.

pahster
04-07-2008, 03:46 PM
It's subjective to a point, but you should still have some information to back up your claim, particularly if you're disputing the validity of fielding percentage.

Questioning the validity of fielding percentage's as a measurement of fielding prowess requires very little. Look no further than Ken Griffey Jr. if you want proof of that.

fearofpopvol1
04-07-2008, 03:48 PM
Questioning the validity of fielding percentage's as a measurement of fielding prowess requires very little. Look no further than Ken Griffey Jr. if you want proof of that.

I'm not saying it's the end all be all (because there are some obvious holes), but Utley is a good defender and if you're going to say he's not, you should be able to back it up with some kind of information.

Cedric
04-07-2008, 03:54 PM
I'm not saying it's the end all be all (because there are some obvious holes), but Utley is a good defender and if you're going to say he's not, you should be able to back it up with some kind of information.

Defensive metrics are terrible. Sorry but baseball and particularly defense is still about forming an opinion from watching the game. I'm not against you and others disagreeing with me. Makes the game fun.

Patrick Bateman
04-07-2008, 04:02 PM
Defensive metrics are terrible. Sorry but baseball and particularly defense is still about forming an opinion from watching the game. I'm not against you and others disagreeing with me. Makes the game fun.


I think if your just going to go the scout route (which IMO is fine) you need to make specific points of where Utley fails as a fielder. You can't just say 'lack of range' and expect to get anywhere in a discussion about fielding.

I've always considered Utley to be an underrated fielder, so I'd like to hear your specific thoughts on where Utley's biggest weak points are.

pahster
04-07-2008, 04:08 PM
I'm not saying it's the end all be all (because there are some obvious holes), but Utley is a good defender and if you're going to say he's not, you should be able to back it up with some kind of information.

I think Utley is a fine defender. Dunno if I'd say he's equal to or better than Phillips defensively, but a number of systems like him. He passes the eye test too, imo.

I think fielding percentage is about as useless a stat as is out there, at least when it comes to measuring defensive contributions of individual players.

WebScorpion
04-07-2008, 04:17 PM
I think both Votto and Hatte are serviceable, and sometimes excellent, fielders at 1st base. I saw Hatte pick up a grass cutter with a back handed stab to his right, come to his knees, and throw out the runner at first...looked great! :thumbup:

I've seen Votto instinctively pick off enough liners to make me wonder how he'd play at 3rd base. :eek: Just a few days ago, I saw Bako catch a sleeping Orlando Hudson on a quick pickoff after the pitch, which he absolutely sizzled down to first. Votto caught the ball on his left (both he and Hatte throw right-handed) and drop flat to his back while applying a seemingly blind sweep tag to the runner, now above his head. Fantastic throw, fantastic tag.

Also, I think both guys have proven over a longer period of time than the first week, that they CAN hit Major League pitching. Maybe they won't come around, but I'm guessing they will. Part of the problem may be that neither of them can get enough time on the field to get into a groove.

None of this takes away from Kepp, though. I agree he's a great hitter and solid fielder and needs to play every day. I think he can do that SuperSubbing.

The rest of the subjects have been piled on enough, I think. Let me just say thanks Hap for sharing your views. I appreciate a first person account of the action.

TRF
04-07-2008, 04:20 PM
I think fp is a good metric in that, although it doesn't look at range, it does suggest if the fielder has a clunker for a glove. I don't think it can be completely ignored.

But how do you measure a fielder's ability with a number? How would you rate EE this year? 2 errors, but the first one could have happened to anyone playing 3B that day. Wet conditions, and the ball just squirted out of his hands. I'm just not sure how you quantify defense over the course of the season, when errors alone are a subjective stat. Why is the fielder given an error on a one hop throw to the 1B, if just reaching the ball was amazing enough? If the 1B puts any glove at all on the ball, he should be charged with the error. If the fielder is charging the ball and misses it completgely, no error, but if it nicks his glove, error. And how do we determine what a chance is?

I know there are new defensive metrics, but how do they break down an individual performance with unique conditions? light rain, snow in some cases, games starting at dusk, huge shadows on the field. Do these metrics also take into account the type of pitcher on the mound?

I'm asking because I want to know.

fearofpopvol1
04-07-2008, 05:22 PM
I think Utley is a fine defender. Dunno if I'd say he's equal to or better than Phillips defensively, but a number of systems like him. He passes the eye test too, imo.

I think fielding percentage is about as useless a stat as is out there, at least when it comes to measuring defensive contributions of individual players.

I agree with you on this, I just wasn't seeing eye to eye with Cedric and had hoped he would provide a sound argument as to why he thinks what he does, that's all.

Highlifeman21
04-07-2008, 06:00 PM
Neither Utley nor Phillips can hold a candle to Hudson defensively at 2B.

Screwball
04-07-2008, 07:46 PM
Neither Utley nor Phillips can hold a candle to Hudson defensively at 2B.

The Fielding Bible (http://fieldingbible.com/) begs to differ, at least as far as Utley is concerned. Their plus/minus for 2007:

Utley: +22
Hudson: +20
Phillips: +11

GAC
04-07-2008, 07:51 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a very solid infielder. He should get the bulk of the time at first base after A-Go is healthy and Votto (time to go to Japan) goes to AAA.

Brandon Phillips may become better than Joe Morgan.

Griffey's HR was vintage Griffey -- a laser beam with a little bit of a hook at the end.

Dusty Baker knows how to manage a bullpen.

Corey Patterson could be an all-star this year.

Edinson Volquez throws gas, however he will have his struggles this year at times with command.

I really don't know what to say, or even how to address some of these. The Votto to Japan has really thrown me. :lol:

We've just finished the first week of the new season. A lot of players start out slow. It should mean very little to most.

Dunn is 3 fer 21 .143 BA .333 OB&#37; .143 SLG%

Encarnacion is 2 fer 20, batting .100

Overall, this team, other then Keppinger, isn't really hitting as of yet in the early stages of this season. And yet we're 4-3. ;)

Give it time before we start to worry.

Highlifeman21
04-07-2008, 07:51 PM
The Fielding Bible (http://fieldingbible.com/) begs to differ, at least as far as Utley is concerned. Their plus/minus for 2007:

Utley: +22
Hudson: +20
Phillips: +11

Interesting. Very interesting, actually.

I thought Utley was above average defensively, but not in Hudson's league. This shows otherwise.

I would say that Utley doesn't have the range of Hudson, but they could easily be equal in terms of hands and skills around the bag.

Phillips is no slouch, and it wouldn't surprise me if he won some GGs down the road, but I still put Hudson and Utley ahead of him, in that order.