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VR
04-07-2008, 10:56 PM
Why didn't the Phillies get the memo that they aren't allowed to play their stars for 4 games in a row?
When you look at winning series, today was a huge chance to gain some momentum for the season....yet the Reds sit their 3 & 4 hitter, giving the Phils a great opportunity to a walk away w/ a split instead of being soundly defeated 3 straight.
Phillips and Griff may not have made a difference, but it sure seems that the Reds don't get the breaks w/ stars' days off like the opponents enjoy.

reds44
04-07-2008, 10:57 PM
Phillips played today.

pahster
04-07-2008, 10:58 PM
Phillips played.

rotnoid
04-07-2008, 11:00 PM
Still, it's a valid point. When I opened gamecast today, that's the first thing I noticed. The Phillies played their starters- get away day or not. I know the lefty on the hill played some part of it, but that lineup is inexcusable, in my eyes.

That being said, I'll take 4 of 7 from 2 playoff teams. Just could have been more.

VR
04-07-2008, 11:12 PM
Did Phillips play? ;)

Sorry...didn't have a chance to follow the game, just caught the lineup on my BBerry and did a quick roll call.

Still have the same question, why don't the Reds get to enjoy so many of these goofy lineups?

RedlegJake
04-07-2008, 11:16 PM
It was NOT a starter day off. It was a dominant lefty starter who is death on lefties historically. I had no problem with the lineup -I just wish the FO would find away to get Dusty a couple better RH bats off the bench.

redsfan4445
04-07-2008, 11:35 PM
and this is the big reason i didnt understand the Reds releasing Cantu!!! Even Wayne said he was Mr. RBI!! so they release him.. im still at a loss over that move

WVRedsFan
04-07-2008, 11:54 PM
I guess I understand the concept, but have trouble figuring out why so early in the season. Surely, these guys, evn 38-year olds like Junior and Hatt shouldn't be so tired as not to play even with having to fly to Milwaukee tonight.

I thought the Reds had a chance to get 3 of 4 today, but the lack of right-handed hitting means you get what you get. I'd take my chances with Griff and Votto in there over Castro, Hopper, or Freel, but I've never been a percentage guy. It sure didn't work so the alternative might have been better, but who knows?

That'll teach me for praising Dusty for not rolling out a Sunday Special on Sunday. He just did it on Monday instead.

flyer85
04-08-2008, 12:05 AM
Phillies had the far superior starting pitcher in this game ... wasn't much else too it.

Sea Ray
04-08-2008, 12:11 AM
Phillies had the far superior starting pitcher in this game ... wasn't much else too it.


Excellent point. A Cole Hamels is the one piece our rotation is missing. You better believe if we had a tough lefty the Phillies would be shaking up their lineup too.

Stormy
04-08-2008, 12:19 AM
It was NOT a starter day off. It was a dominant lefty starter who is death on lefties historically. I had no problem with the lineup -I just wish the FO would find away to get Dusty a couple better RH bats off the bench.

Actually, LHH hit Hamels at a better clip than RHH last year, in a mild reversal of the previous year's numbers. Hamels is tough on lefties, but he's possibly tougher on RHH (especially bad RHH, which he saw plenty of today). We probably lose to the superior pitcher anyway, given Arroyo's tough day, but it was a pretty inane lineup by Dusty.

Screwball
04-08-2008, 12:21 AM
I guess I understand the concept, but have trouble figuring out why so early in the season. Surely, these guys, evn 38-year olds like Junior and Hatt shouldn't be so tired as not to play even with having to fly to Milwaukee tonight.

Dusty kinda addressed that before the game:



"You don't need days off that much early. [Ken Griffey Jr.] might only get one off this month. Another month he might get three or four. It averages out. He's got some hop in his step. That means his legs are feeling good. If his legs are feeling good, his bat feels good."

SteelSD
04-08-2008, 01:04 AM
Actually, LHH hit Hamels at a better clip than RHH last year, in a mild reversal of the previous year's numbers. Hamels is tough on lefties, but he's possibly tougher on RHH (especially bad RHH, which he saw plenty of today). We probably lose to the superior pitcher anyway, given Arroyo's tough day, but it was a pretty inane lineup by Dusty.

I'll never quite understand a Manager who thinks he can get an edge by replacing better LH hitters with inferior RH hitters just to work a split. Today wasn't a "Sunday Special" from Baker. That was a "matchup" lineup infested with poor hitters and dink-and-dunkers. Juan Castro had no business starting that game, much less slotted in the 2-hole. I can see either Ryan Freel or Norris Hopper in CF instead of Corey Patterson, but to give slots to both of them in addition to Castro is just looking to lose a game.

But then, that's Dusty Baker being Dusty Baker.

WMR
04-08-2008, 01:08 AM
I'll never quite understand a Manager who thinks he can get an edge by replacing better LH hitters with inferior RH hitters just to work a split. Today wasn't a "Sunday Special" from Baker. That was a "matchup" lineup infested with poor hitters and dink-and-dunkers. Juan Castro had no business starting that game, much less slotted in the 2-hole. I can see either Ryan Freel or Norris Hopper in CF instead of Corey Patterson, but to give slots to both of them in addition to Castro is just looking to lose a game.

But then, that's Dusty Baker being Dusty Baker.

You said it!!

Jpup
04-08-2008, 01:16 AM
The only problem I had with the lineup was that Castro was playing. If Gonzalez was healthy, we would not have seen that. I was irritated when Dusty pulled back Votto in favor of Javy. Javy got a raw deal on 3-2 though. What was that guy thinking to call that pitch a strike? It wasn't even close. The Phillies announcers were even talking about how Lidge and Phils caught a break.

Caveat Emperor
04-08-2008, 08:00 AM
That was a "matchup" lineup infested with poor hitters and dink-and-dunkers.

He even said as much in his pregame comments -- his stated goal in putting the lineup on the field was to have as many slap-hitting "first to third" type players in the lineup at once. He said he believed it would put more pressure on Hamels.

Dusty being Dusty is exactly what that lineup was.

RedlegJake
04-08-2008, 08:16 AM
Actually, LHH hit Hamels at a better clip than RHH last year, in a mild reversal of the previous year's numbers. Hamels is tough on lefties, but he's possibly tougher on RHH (especially bad RHH, which he saw plenty of today). We probably lose to the superior pitcher anyway, given Arroyo's tough day, but it was a pretty inane lineup by Dusty.

Stormy...you're forgetting the "Book". Dusty is manager and he's read the book. He played by the book. I know why Dusty did it and most managers do the same thing but I agree with Steel. It's one thing to play a RH reserve who has historically worn out lefties, it's another to replace regulars with guys who don't hit anyone left or RHer.

membengal
04-08-2008, 09:03 AM
The problem is, as long as Castro is on this team, he will be played every once in awhile. It is less than ideal (understatement), but I have resigned myself to that fact. He's on the team, he will play every so often. Because that is the case, I fully expected to see him against Hamels. Because that would seem like a good time to get him at-bats (b/c of sitting a lefty against Hamels).

We're stuck with it until he is off the club. Oh happy day, when that someday happens. But until then? Once every six or seven days, I will just have to accept that this is one of those things over which I have no control...

RFS62
04-08-2008, 09:07 AM
Dusty is going to play every player on the roster every now and then.

Any time he does it, he's open to criticism about the weakness of the lineup for that particular day.

He's still going to give them all starts here and there.

BRM
04-08-2008, 09:09 AM
Giving Castro a start isn't really the issue. He's the backup SS for now so everyone should expect to see him in the lineup every now and then. However, batting him second is plain criminal.

lollipopcurve
04-08-2008, 09:28 AM
These aren't stratomatic cards. They're players, and all of them need to get some playing time and some rest. It still amazes me that on this board, where we've got a lot of diehard baseball fans, there is griping every time -- every single time -- more than 1 bench guy gets a start.

The Reds were in the ballgame with a chance to win at the end -- and several of the bench guys contributed more than, say, Dunn and Encarnacion -- that is, if you want to evaluate players' performance in the game that was, in fact, played.

membengal
04-08-2008, 09:44 AM
Amen to that lollipop. Well said.

Jpup
04-08-2008, 10:01 AM
The problem is, as long as Castro is on this team, he will be played every once in awhile. It is less than ideal (understatement), but I have resigned myself to that fact. He's on the team, he will play every so often. Because that is the case, I fully expected to see him against Hamels. Because that would seem like a good time to get him at-bats (b/c of sitting a lefty against Hamels).

We're stuck with it until he is off the club. Oh happy day, when that someday happens. But until then? Once every six or seven days, I will just have to accept that this is one of those things over which I have no control...

all Krivsky has to do is DFA him. Dusty is going to give him time if he's on the roster. If Wayne would take away his toys, he wouldn't play with them.

membengal
04-08-2008, 10:40 AM
Right. And since he has not been DFA'd, he's going to play every so often. People can get mad when it happens, I suppose, but I will just flinch and deal with it until that time when he is not on the roster and therefore won't be playing.

VR
04-08-2008, 10:51 AM
I'm all for getting everyone ab's....but when you've got some obvious momentum building..to throw a bucket of cold water on it by putting a much, much lesser offense and defense out there.
Slamming down 3 of 4 is a huge boost, settling for a split is madness for mediocrity.

lollipopcurve
04-08-2008, 11:09 AM
I'm all for getting everyone ab's....but when you've got some obvious momentum building..to throw a bucket of cold water on it by putting a much, much lesser offense and defense out there.
Slamming down 3 of 4 is a huge boost, settling for a split is madness for mediocrity.

So, when is the ideal time to use a "Sunday special"? Sunday, but only if the team has significant momentum to overcome a loss? Monday, but not if the team has a little momentum, that is, not enough momentum to overcome a loss? Tuesday, but not if the team is on a losing jag and really needs a win? Wednesday, but not if the Reds are playing a key divisional opponent? Thursday, but not if the team has an off-day the next day and can rest every regular anyway? Friday, but not if the team is coming off an off-day in which every regular got a rest anyway? Saturday? Can you have a Sunday Special on a Saturday?

Falls City Beer
04-08-2008, 11:21 AM
Wasn't the only hitter of substance left out of the lineup yesterday Griffey? I don't consider that all that much of an issue, considering Griffey would likely have had a Dunn-ian day against Hamels.

bucksfan2
04-08-2008, 11:23 AM
So, when is the ideal time to use a "Sunday special"? Sunday, but only if the team has significant momentum to overcome a loss? Monday, but not if the team has a little momentum, that is, not enough momentum to overcome a loss? Tuesday, but not if the team is on a losing jag and really needs a win? Wednesday, but not if the Reds are playing a key divisional opponent? Thursday, but not if the team has an off-day the next day and can rest every regular anyway? Friday, but not if the team is coming off an off-day in which every regular got a rest anyway? Saturday? Can you have a Sunday Special on a Saturday?

I agree that if Castro is on the major league club he needs a start every once in a while. But at this point in his career he no longer has a major bat and to put him in the lineup is similar to inserting another pitcher. I would suggest playing Castro when Valentine is in the lineup because his bat would make up a little bit for the loss of a bat when Castro is in the lineup.

The Phillies obviously wanted to win that game because they didn't play their scrubs on a get away day. I wonder why Dusty didn't feel the same way.

PuffyPig
04-08-2008, 11:23 AM
Wasn't the only hitter of substance left out of the lineup yesterday Griffey? I don't consider that all that much of an issue, considering Griffey would likely have had a Dunn-ian day against Hamels.

I agree. And if you don't give Griffey lots of rest, he'll wear down by August, like last year.

BRM
04-08-2008, 11:25 AM
Wasn't the only hitter of substance left out of the lineup yesterday Griffey? I don't consider that all that much of an issue, considering Griffey would likely have had a Dunn-ian day against Hamels.

Most of the complaints I've read were against Castro batting 2nd. There was a couple of posts about Hopper and Freel both being in the lineup but nothing much. The vast majority of posts have been regarding Castro and his spot in the lineup, unless I've missed something. Not sure why this has become such a big deal.

WVRedsFan
04-08-2008, 12:04 PM
Most of the complaints I've read were against Castro batting 2nd. There was a couple of posts about Hopper and Freel both being in the lineup but nothing much. The vast majority of posts have been regarding Castro and his spot in the lineup, unless I've missed something. Not sure why this has become such a big deal.

Most of it comes from the fact that though Castro may add some value as a fielder (in some folks' eyes), he adds nothing as a hitter. So, adding him to the lineup to face a tough left hander makes no sense. Of course, unless you play your best lineup and take what comes, you'll always see this type of griping. Many managers have this pre-conseived idea that right handed batters always have the advantage against a left hander, but looking at the pitcher's stats, that's not the case, at least in my eyes.

SteelSD
04-08-2008, 12:19 PM
I agree. And if you don't give Griffey lots of rest, he'll wear down by August, like last year.

Sure, Griffey needs his rest but Baker needs to do a better job of picking his spots. That being said, especially in light of Caveat's comments, I don't view yesterday's lineup as being configured just to get someone either playing time or rest. Baker apparently thought he was playing matchups and that yesterday's lineup could somehow "pressure" the likes of Cole Hamels.

That's how Baker thinks. It's the same kind of nonsense that gets the likes of Corey Patterson, Neifi Perez, and Juan Castro positioned high up in his lineups. It's why we see dumb double-switches and players asked to bunt when they can't and shouldn't. One-step linear thinking based on a "book" that should be burned.

But on the plus side, at least Adam Dunn is now seeing far fewer pitches per PA than ever (3.56 P/PA) and he's hitting more ground balls than ever (1.75 GB/FB ratio), and by a wide margain. That sure was some solid hitting advice, Mr. Baker. It's worked like a charm so far.

Caveat Emperor
04-08-2008, 12:46 PM
But on the plus side, at least Adam Dunn is now seeing far fewer pitches per PA than ever (3.56 P/PA) and he's hitting more ground balls than ever (1.75 GB/FB ratio), and by a wide margain. That sure was some solid hitting advice, Mr. Baker. It's worked like a charm so far.

I'm going to say "Small Sample Size," cross my fingers, and hope this isn't a trend that is forming.

Falls City Beer
04-08-2008, 01:01 PM
Managers, hitting coaches, extra batting practice--it's all added up to Dunn being the same hitter for the last 8 seasons. I doubt Dusty can move that mountain, either.

Screwball
04-08-2008, 01:02 PM
But on the plus side, at least Adam Dunn is now seeing far fewer pitches per PA than ever (3.56 P/PA) and he's hitting more ground balls than ever (1.75 GB/FB ratio), and by a wide margain. That sure was some solid hitting advice, Mr. Baker. It's worked like a charm so far.

Eh, he's still beein getting on base via the walk (6 BB in 7 games), so I don't think Dusty's quite ruined him. I've noticed that Dunn's taken some good hacks at very hittable pitches, but has either popped them up or fouled them out of play. I think the onus is on Dunn to punish the mistake pitches he's currently just missing. Once he does that, we'll again see the big time numbers we've grown accustomed to seeing from him.

Falls City Beer
04-08-2008, 01:08 PM
I love Adam, but let's just be honest: 10-day hiatuses from anything resembling production are not exactly alien to the big guy from Texas.

flyer85
04-08-2008, 01:08 PM
couple of notes on Dunn
... an increased GO/FO ratio will decrease his HRs
... he has NEVER had a bad April(his worst April OPS is 874)

Falls City Beer
04-08-2008, 01:12 PM
couple of notes on Dunn
... an increased GO/FO ratio will decrease his HRs
... he has NEVER had a bad April(his worst April OPS is 874)

My guess on the April stuff is that Dunn's got power that can cut through cold April air (unlike, say, Brandon Phillips). Plus, I don't put much stock in April (or any month) having a particular feature that would otherwise influence production.

flyer85
04-08-2008, 01:15 PM
Plus, I don't put much stock in April (or any month) having a particular feature that would otherwise influence production.I don't necessarily either, but Dunn usually comes out smokin' in April and has never had a bad one. That being said there is obviously still plenty of time to have a good April.

WebScorpion
04-08-2008, 03:54 PM
I guess we'd be REALLY upset if the tying run wasn't in scoring position when the winning run was called out on what should have been ball four. :rolleyes: Whether that lineup stunk or not, we were in the game at the end. If that call had gone our way, we might have won it. IMO, when you're facing Hamels, the key is not who bats or in what order...it's how many pitches they take. The sooner you get into the bullpen, the better. :thumbup:

camisadelgolf
04-08-2008, 04:11 PM
I guess we'd be REALLY upset if the tying run wasn't in scoring position when the winning run was called out on what should have been ball four. :rolleyes: Whether that lineup stunk or not, we were in the game at the end. If that call had gone our way, we might have won it. IMO, when you're facing Hamels, the key is not who bats or in what order...it's how many pitches they take. The sooner you get into the bullpen, the better. :thumbup:

You could also say that an upgrade of Juan Castro to Joey Votto at the start of the game could've made enough of a difference to make up for the score at the end of the game.

bucksfan2
04-08-2008, 04:23 PM
I guess we'd be REALLY upset if the tying run wasn't in scoring position when the winning run was called out on what should have been ball four. :rolleyes: Whether that lineup stunk or not, we were in the game at the end. If that call had gone our way, we might have won it. IMO, when you're facing Hamels, the key is not who bats or in what order...it's how many pitches they take. The sooner you get into the bullpen, the better. :thumbup:

But when you run a lineup out there with Castro in the two hole the pitcher doesn't have to work as hard. I don't think there is any pitcher in baseball who would rather face Keppy in the 2 hole and Votto in the 5 hole over Castro in the 2 hole and Keppy in the 5 hole. Heck Hamels probably laughed when he saw Castro in there. On the reverse side how much more pressure is put on Arroyo when he realizes that his manager ran out the B team against Hamels. How much more does he press with each pitch?

Sure the Reds had a chance to win the game in the 9th and Votto is struggling, however, the Phillies didn't rest their starters. I believe they ran out the same lineup yesterday as they did Sunday. If the Phillies were to give Howard or Burrell or Utley or even Victorino I would have been fine with Dusty running out the lineup that he did but the Phillies didn't. They played to win while the reds gave a weak effort.