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View Full Version : Another glaring deficiency dooming the Reds to "pretender" status:No RH pop off bench



WMR
04-08-2008, 10:38 PM
Our right-handed pinch-hitting options as they currently exist are beyond pathetic.

A good GM would have rectified this issue before the season began.

Instead, we still have dreck like Castro and punch-and-judy hitters like Freel and Hopper (much too similar). Way too many similar bats on this team.

Another glaring deficiency of this ball-club that must be rectified.

HokieRed
04-08-2008, 10:40 PM
I think we're starting to see that this is only the tip of the iceberg, the whole being a glaringly weak offense overall, particularly in the middle of the lineup. This team will lose 85 games.

IslandRed
04-08-2008, 10:50 PM
Instead, we still have dreck like Castro and punch-and-judy hitters like Freel and Hopper (much too similar).

Agreed on the redundancy of Freel and Hopper, but from all reports they were trying to trade Freel. Sometimes nobody wants it at the price you're selling it.

As much as I dislike Castro, every team has a backup shortstop and most all of them can't hit very well. If they could they'd be regular shortstops. Of course, all bad isn't equally bad.

klw
04-08-2008, 10:53 PM
Well you didn't need pop in that situation, just a nice little single would have done the trick. however would have liked a better choice than Hopper.

WMR
04-08-2008, 10:54 PM
Well you didn't need pop in that situation, just a nice little single would have done the trick. however would have liked a better choice than Hopper.

Pop = Ability to hit the ball out of the infield

BuckeyeRedleg
04-08-2008, 11:38 PM
I wish someone would take Freel off our hands.

He's pretty much worthless with the construction of this team.

Castro? Well, I think it plain stubborness at this point (see: Majewski, Gary).

reds44
04-08-2008, 11:42 PM
Forget "pop", the Reds don't have any right handed hitters off the bench.

redsfan4445
04-09-2008, 12:18 AM
this is why i wish i knew why they let go of Cantu!!.. he was a very good RH and showed promise after coming from the Rays... grrr i wish we would have kept him Wayne!!!

Caveat Emperor
04-09-2008, 12:19 AM
Forget "pop", the Reds don't have any right handed hitters off the bench.

The team has been seriously RH-deficient since Austin Kearns and Wily Mo Pena went bye-bye in '06.

They obviously didn't think it was a problem last year -- not sure why anyone expects that to change right now.

Patrick Bateman
04-09-2008, 12:34 AM
this is why i wish i knew why they let go of Cantu!!.. he was a very good RH and showed promise after coming from the Rays... grrr i wish we would have kept him Wayne!!!

Except he can't hit lefties (or anyoen for that matter)

KronoRed
04-09-2008, 12:41 AM
Except he can't hit lefties (or anyoen for that matter)

Also can't play defense anywhere and is only starting for the Marlins because they have nobody else.

Patrick Bateman
04-09-2008, 12:58 AM
Also can't play defense anywhere and is only starting for the Marlins because they have nobody else.

Exactly. He's an awful player. He was in AAA last year for good reason. It's because he's not good at anything.

Kc61
04-09-2008, 01:49 AM
The Reds lack right handed hitting. It's not just the bench. They have one plus righty hitter with power on the entire team. Phillips. Period.

I've never been a fan of lefty based lineups. Right handed hitters usually do better facing both kinds of pitching. Lefty hitters are usually weak against lefty pitching. Just my preference.

But if you have a lefty based offense, it has to have some balance. The Reds have no balance from the right side. It's just Phillips. EE doesn't get extra base hits, he's become a table setter who looks for walks. Keppinger is a superb OBP guy but doesn't have power. Ross didn't hit last year.

The Reds don't have enough right handed hitting. In the lineup or on the bench.

Is Conine available?

WMR
04-09-2008, 01:53 AM
EE has nice power, Kc. He's just in a horrible slump right now (along with the rest of the offense, more or less).

WMR
04-09-2008, 01:54 AM
You're selling EE short. Historically, he has been excellent at accumulating extra base hits. I remain confident he will snap out of his slump soon.

Kc61
04-09-2008, 02:22 AM
You're selling EE short. Historically, he has been excellent at accumulating extra base hits. I remain confident he will snap out of his slump soon.


Hard for me to agree with all the kudos EE gets from fans. I hope his fans are correct, would like to see him succeed. But I don't the evidence that he is a top third base prospect.

Yes, he's had some good stretches. He started off well in 2006. But once the league got a good look at him his numbers have been less impressive.

The signs started to show in September 2006. He had an OPS of .560. The whole team slumped that year near the end, no big deal that EE did as well.

But he didn't snap back in early 2007. He started with a .554 OPS last April. He also had a .614 OPS in July. In May and June he did better, but these "hot" months were below .850. Not red not.

Then, late last year, in August and September he did better (over .900 OPS) which boosted his stats for the year. But again, the Reds were out of the race and I discount those numbers a bit. A lot of meaningless games.

These numbers still leave open the possibility that EE can be good. But three things bother me.

First, EE had an OPS last year of .804 against lefties. In 2006, EE's OPS against lefties was .828. These are not the numbers you want from a righty power hitter against lefties.

Second, EE's extra base hit total last year was low and I recall that this total was boosted by his late season stats. For most of last year he was a singles hitter.

Third, he seems prone to long slumps. It happened each of the last two years and may be happening again now.

EE has shown the ability to take walks and has hit pretty well in the clutch. These are attributes. And I think his defense is improved, despite the two bad throws this year.

But he hasn't become the righty power bat many of us expected and the Reds need.

He's young. I'm sure his bat will pick up. But how much?

Far East
04-09-2008, 09:04 AM
Am I correct that Tuesday night the RH PH was Freel, hitting for the LH Bako?

Against a tough RHP Gange?

If Dusty was hoping for a fast base runner, then he could have allowed Bako to hit and used Freel as his pinch-runner if he got on.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2008, 09:13 AM
This team's biggest issue is OBP, but it's second issue is power.

westofyou
04-09-2008, 09:45 AM
Hard for me to agree with all the kudos EE gets from fans.

I agree, I'd say he's one of the more frustrating Reds hitters of the past 5 years myself.

Now I'll step back for the wave of corrections that will probably come my way.

BTW Keppinger will take his job if he doesn't get it all together.

RedlegJake
04-09-2008, 10:18 AM
I agree, I'd say he's one of the more frustrating Reds hitters of the past 5 years myself.

Now I'll step back for the wave of corrections that will probably come my way.

BTW Keppinger will take his job if he doesn't get it all together.

No, I agree with you. EE is frustrating - as a hitter and as a fielder. Guy drives me nuts because you can see the talent there but he goes through this every year. Many opportunities have come for EE, and for Votto/Hatte in the first 8 games. I stil believe they'll hit and the offense will get much better.

Last night, though, you just have to give kudos to Suppan. He is capable of big games from time to time. Look at his pitch totals - the guy pounded the strike zone, kept ahead of the hitters and the Reds helped him out by swinging at alot of 1st and 2nd pitches. When a pitcher gets strike one and pounds the zone all night, it's going to be a long night for hitters. Suppan isn't Cueto but he isn't Fog either. The Reds have faced a hot pitching Jeff Suppan, Brandon Webb, Dan Haren, and Cole Hamels. That's 3 of their 4 losses.

The Reds are losing pitching battles. No one on RedsZone knows how to deal with that. It's a whole new b*tch.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2008, 10:29 AM
EdE's definitely an underachiever. I think it's impossible to argue otherwise.

OnBaseMachine
04-09-2008, 11:05 AM
I've been one of the Encarnacion's biggest fans since he was acquired by the Reds in 2001. I've always liked his range and arm at third base and his great bat speed which I thought would develop into 25 HR power. But even though it's still very, very early in the season, even I am starting to get frustrated with Edwin a little bit. He's already committed two throwing errors (though the one on Opening Day I can excuse for wet conditions) and should have had another error last night if not for a biased official scorer in Milwaukee giving Hardy a hit. His bat has me totally flustered - he walked 39 times in 502 atbats last season...he's already got 9 walks in 24 atbats this year. That shows me he's improving his plate discipline but you would also expect an improvement in other areas of his offensive game too. Again, it's very young in the season but he needs to get it going now before Gonzalez comes back and Dusty replaces him with Keppinger at third base.

Caveat Emperor
04-09-2008, 12:33 PM
This team's biggest issue is OBP, but it's second issue is power.

Usually not a good sign when OPS is the team's #1 and #2 problem.

membengal
04-09-2008, 12:51 PM
It's why I was yearning for the Reds to sign Morgan Ensberg this off-season. A fallback option at 3b, platoon help at 1b, and RH power off the bench.

flyer85
04-09-2008, 12:52 PM
when EE goes to the bench he can supply some pop.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2008, 12:57 PM
Usually not a good sign when OPS is the team's #1 and #2 problem.

True, though if the matrix were reversed, the problem would be a little less urgent.

Will M
04-09-2008, 01:41 PM
1. getting Ross back will help some. he will take a few lefties deep this year

2. getting Gonzo back will help some. Kep at 1B vs lefties with Gonzo at SS
( since Hat and Votto don't seem to hit lefties well )

3. We absolutely need a RH power bat who can play RF/LF. I argued this all winter. Someone like Xavier Nady, Matt Murton, Kevin Mench, etc.
Griffey won't play 162 games and hasn't hit lefties well recently.
Dunn needs a day off now and then.
The RH bat could start 40 games vs lefties, start occasionally vs righties and be a backup if Griffey goes down.

4. The Reds got robbed in the Rob Bell for EE trade. Texas found out real quick that Bell stunk yet we have to be tortured yearly by EE's underachieving.

Falls City Beer
04-09-2008, 01:42 PM
I think Gonzo will help in the righty power dept, too. That's his best quality without a doubt. I just hope he doesn't have lingering issues from his injury.

M2
04-09-2008, 01:46 PM
It should be noted that if you can hit for average/get on base AND you've got pop, then you're not going to spend much time on anyone's bench. Bench players are flawed by nature.

I can see the argument that the Reds could use a RH platoon player at CF and 1B, but be aware the flaw with those players likely will be that they don't hit RHPs worth a lick.

The upside of Freel and Hopper is, while they don't have power, they've both shown an ability to get on base against RHPs. Add speed to that (though Freel's is in decline) and versatility (Freel can play five positions, Hopper can man any OF position) and you've got two useful bench players (provided they play well, which is never a given). They PH and get an innings started or keep an inning going. They can make something happen on the bases. They provide a lot of coverage in the later innings when the manager is juggling the lineup.

The question becomes, do you want bench versatility or a more limited platoon guy?

The team needs a backup C on the roster (actually it needs a starting catcher and then one of the current guys can be the backup). It needs at least one competent LH PH on the bench (whoever's not playing between Hatteberg and Votto).

It doesn't leave a lot of room for a RH platoon palooka. I'm not saying don't get one, but I'd figure out the catching situation first and then see if I needed to concern myself with finding more juice against southpaws.

RedsManRick
04-09-2008, 01:54 PM
I agree, I'd say he's one of the more frustrating Reds hitters of the past 5 years myself.

Now I'll step back for the wave of corrections that will probably come my way.

BTW Keppinger will take his job if he doesn't get it all together.

Given defense as well, you'd rather have Keppinger and Gonzalez over Keppinger and EE? Or you just think that's what's likely to happen?

RedsManRick
04-09-2008, 01:55 PM
Freel for Murton would make a lot of sense for this team.

westofyou
04-09-2008, 02:28 PM
Given defense as well, you'd rather have Keppinger and Gonzalez over Keppinger and EE? Or you just think that's what's likely to happen?

I think that the better Keppinger plays and the more indifferent EE plays than the more likely EE becomes a tool for something else that the team needs.

Baseball's Darwinism knows no friends, nor has a long history of patience. The Auroch was the biggest cow in the field once and look what happened to them.

Will M
04-09-2008, 02:43 PM
Freel for Murton would make a lot of sense for this team.

I think that ship sailed when the Cubs got Reed Johnson.

klw
04-09-2008, 03:50 PM
Pop = Ability to hit the ball out of the infield

Well if you are setting the bar that high ... :D

WebScorpion
04-10-2008, 03:59 PM
Here's the thing about something as specific as right-handed pop off the bench: It's something that can be easily acquired around the All-Star break, if the rest of the team proves it can contend for the division title. Let's just hang in there and see how this season pans out. I must say, I'm loving what I've seen so far...they're 6-3, haven't lost a series yet, and that is with a few big breaks (ump calls) going against them. These guys appear to have the talent and desire, let's see if they have the endurance. I'm sure Dusty and Wayne know they could use a right-handed bopper (starting or on the bench) and they might do something about it if these guys are in the hunt at the break. Have a little faith. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/angelic011.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

OldXOhio
04-10-2008, 04:18 PM
A good GM would have.....



I get the feeling that no matter what happens on the field in the next 3-5 years, these words will continue to be used on here with regard to Wayne Krivsky.

pedro
04-10-2008, 04:41 PM
A good GM would have rectified this issue before the season began.



:rolleyes:

FTR, WMR, Wayne did try. It's just that Craig Wilson didn't work out.

I swear some of you people are so glass half empty it's hysterical. Do the Reds need some RH pop off the bench? Hell yes. But to claim that Krivsky isn't a good GM because, 10 games into the season, he hasn't been able to address this single need is pretty lame IMO.

pedro
04-10-2008, 04:45 PM
It should be noted that if you can hit for average/get on base AND you've got pop, then you're not going to spend much time on anyone's bench. Bench players are flawed by nature.

I can see the argument that the Reds could use a RH platoon player at CF and 1B, but be aware the flaw with those players likely will be that they don't hit RHPs worth a lick.

The upside of Freel and Hopper is, while they don't have power, they've both shown an ability to get on base against RHPs. Add speed to that (though Freel's is in decline) and versatility (Freel can play five positions, Hopper can man any OF position) and you've got two useful bench players (provided they play well, which is never a given). They PH and get an innings started or keep an inning going. They can make something happen on the bases. They provide a lot of coverage in the later innings when the manager is juggling the lineup.

The question becomes, do you want bench versatility or a more limited platoon guy?

The team needs a backup C on the roster (actually it needs a starting catcher and then one of the current guys can be the backup). It needs at least one competent LH PH on the bench (whoever's not playing between Hatteberg and Votto).

It doesn't leave a lot of room for a RH platoon palooka. I'm not saying don't get one, but I'd figure out the catching situation first and then see if I needed to concern myself with finding more juice against southpaws.


good post m2.

WMR
04-10-2008, 04:48 PM
:rolleyes:

FTR, WMR, Wayne did try. It's just that Craig Wilson didn't work out.

I swear some of you people are so glass half empty it's hysterical. Do the Reds need some RH pop off the bench? Hell yes. But to claim that Krivsky isn't a good GM because, 10 games into the season, he hasn't been able to address this single need is pretty lame IMO.

I'm not a glass half empty kind of guy, Pedro.

Just saying, it doesn't take much inspection to see that this roster is woefully redundant. Krivsky should have done more to alleviate that before the season began.

pedro
04-10-2008, 04:52 PM
I'm not a glass half empty kind of guy, Pedro.

Just saying, it doesn't take much inspection to see that this roster is woefully redundant. Krivsky should have done more to alleviate that before the season began.



I would have thought you were savvy enough to realize it's not always as simple as just thinking it.

What were they to do? Presumably they've been looking at trades but it's not like there were a bunch of these types of guys floating around in free agency.

RedlegJake
04-10-2008, 05:13 PM
I would have thought you were savvy enough to realize it's not always as simple as just thinking it.

What were they to do? Presumably they've been looking at trades but it's not like there were a bunch of these types of guys floating around in free agency.

Come on Pedro. You mean trades aren't as simple as just saying "Boy I wish we had Matt Kemp. Let's send em Drew Stubbs"?

princeton
04-10-2008, 05:35 PM
Just saying, it doesn't take much inspection to see that this roster is woefully redundant. Krivsky should have done more to alleviate that before the season began.



It's like a beautiful building was just completed three years ahead of time, and some guy is saying, but the landscaping isn't completely done...

there were HUGE problems when Krivsky arrived: no defense, no speed, not much offense against lefty pitchers, no starters, no relievers, and a lot of dumb batters. Most everything has been addressed, and the problem about facing lefty pitchers is probably one of the least pressing so it got set aside. Phillips and AGonz were part of the solution, but more is needed. This'll probably be addressed with bench players first, but long-term the problem will require replacing lefty-swinging starters. Farm help is a bit off, though-- Todd Frazier, Drew Stubbs, Adam Rosales are the key righty bats. The kid acquired from Arizona is an afterthought, but it's perhaps noteable that he hits lefties very well for a lefty swinger.

Reds have filled up on multi-positional players (Kepp, Freel, and about a zillion guys in Louisville) because we've had to carry 12 man staffs so versatility from the bench has been key. That need for 12 pitchers seems to be going away, which will allow two specialists to replace a jack of all trades. But the need really didn't fade until .... well, last week.

M2
04-10-2008, 05:45 PM
Unfortunately, I don't think you're going to see the Reds or much of anybody carry fewer than 12 pitchers any time soon.

My guess is the only thing that will get more position players into the mix is if the GMs lobby the owners for roster expansion.

KronoRed
04-10-2008, 10:33 PM
My guess is the only thing that will get more position players into the mix is if the GMs lobby the owners for roster expansion.

Offer 26 roster spots to the players as an incentive to get rid of the DH.

Far East
04-11-2008, 07:50 AM
Jorge Cantu is the RH corner IFer that the Reds let slip away.

Not the most versatile, not the most powerful, and not the most gifted defender, but at least he could have been the RH platoon first baseman, occasional 3B fill-in, and RH PH.

In his 27 game audition with the Reds last year, he had a .298 BA, .382 OBP, .491 SLG and a .873 OPS. How would you like to have put up numbers like that at age 25, and to be released by a team that only won 72 games?

Who took his spot on the 40 man roster, and was he worth it?

WMR
04-11-2008, 08:13 AM
Jorge Cantu is the RH corner IFer that the Reds let slip away.

Not the most versatile, not the most powerful, and not the most gifted defender, but at least he could have been the RH platoon first baseman, occasional 3B fill-in, and RH PH.

In his 27 game audition with the Reds last year, he had a .298 BA, .382 OBP, .491 SLG and a .873 OPS. How would you like to have put up numbers like that at age 25, and to be released by a team that only won 72 games?

Who took his spot on the 40 man roster, and was he worth it?

You're not savvy enough to understand Wayne's machinations.

redsmetz
04-11-2008, 08:44 AM
Jorge Cantu is the RH corner IFer that the Reds let slip away.

Not the most versatile, not the most powerful, and not the most gifted defender, but at least he could have been the RH platoon first baseman, occasional 3B fill-in, and RH PH.

In his 27 game audition with the Reds last year, he had a .298 BA, .382 OBP, .491 SLG and a .873 OPS. How would you like to have put up numbers like that at age 25, and to be released by a team that only won 72 games?

Who took his spot on the 40 man roster, and was he worth it?

Cantu lost out on the numbers game. He was released the day before the Rule 5 draft to open a roster spot. Krivsky himself acknowledged that Cantu's skills were basically redundant with the make up for the club. Likewise he was arbitration eligible, which probably played into it as well, but that's solely conjecture on my part. Cantu signed with the Marlins for 500K, a 90K raise over the previous season. I can't guess what the arbitration numbers would have been.

No question, one can argue that dropping Cantu was a waste to select longshot Sergio Valenzuela. It didn't work out; that happens. I'm not sweating losing Jorge Cantu.

Here's what the Reds archives has on the Cantu release:


Krivsky called the unexpected release of Cantu a "baseball decision" and nothing more. The Reds have lefty hitters Joey Votto and Scott Hatteberg, but Krivsky said the club could turn to utility man Jeff Keppinger as a right-handed option at that spot.

"We wanted to get down to 39 [players on the roster] to participate in the Rule 5 Draft [Thursday]," Krivsky said of the Cantu move. "We just felt like the situation we were in, he was the guy to come off."

Acquired in July from the Rays, Cantu batted .298 with one home run and nine RBIs in 27 games. Although arbitration eligible, he was expected to return next season.

BRM
04-11-2008, 10:13 AM
Cantu couldn't hit lefties or play a lick of defense. He made little sense as a RH platoon partner anywhere.

Career OPS vs LHP: .733

westofyou
04-11-2008, 10:15 AM
Cantu couldn't hit lefties or play a lick of defense. He made little sense as a RH platoon partner anywhere.

Career OPS vs LHP: .733
I think you understand Cantu's machinations very well.

KronoRed
04-11-2008, 01:07 PM
If Cantu were he we would probably be without Keppinger, no thanks.

WMR
04-11-2008, 01:29 PM
"Anything" >>>>>>>>>>> Castro

KronoRed
04-11-2008, 01:37 PM
Bite your tounge, Castro is your backup SS, nobody else on the roster at the moment can do that.

WMR
04-11-2008, 01:40 PM
Bite your tounge, Castro is your backup SS, nobody else on the roster at the moment can do that.

Norris Hopper could play a better SS than Castro. And yes, I am serious. :(

BRM
04-11-2008, 01:46 PM
Norris Hopper could play a better SS than Castro. And yes, I am serious. :(

I'm no fan of Juan Castro but c'mon. Norris has never played SS in his professional career. I think Juan could outplay him there.

dabvu2498
04-11-2008, 01:47 PM
I'm no fan of Juan Castro but c'mon. Norris has never played SS in his professional career. I think Juan could outplay him there.

9 games with the GCL Royals in 1998. Booyah! :cool:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/norris-hopper.shtml

KronoRed
04-11-2008, 01:48 PM
Please don't say Freel could play SS, he can barely play the OF ;)

BRM
04-11-2008, 01:50 PM
9 games with the GCL Royals in 1998. Booyah! :cool:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/norris-hopper.shtml

Ah, I looked at Baseball Reference. It doesn't show GCL stats. It starts with high-A.

BRM
04-11-2008, 01:54 PM
Wow, I just looked at the link Dab provided. Hopper made 10 errors in just 47 chances at SS that year for a .787 FP. No wonder he only got 9 games there.

KronoRed
04-11-2008, 01:55 PM
9 games with the GCL Royals in 1998. Booyah! :cool:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/norris-hopper.shtml

10 errors in 9 games..sign me up.

klw
04-11-2008, 01:58 PM
Sammy Sosa is still available. I don't see a fit unless Freel is moved.

KronoRed
04-11-2008, 02:01 PM
Freel's numbers at SS are just as bad.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/F/Ryan-Freel.shtml

WMR
04-11-2008, 02:55 PM
I can guarantee Castro will have a perfect fielding percentage on the 90 out of 100 balls that he doesn't get to. He'll probably get the other 10 hit right at him as well. :party:

BRM
04-11-2008, 02:57 PM
I can guarantee Castro will have a perfect fielding percentage on the 90 out of 100 balls that he doesn't get to. He'll probably get the other 10 hit right at him as well. :party:

You don't like statues with Golden Hands?

WMR
04-11-2008, 03:04 PM
You don't like statues with Golden Hands?

:D

11larkin11
04-11-2008, 05:00 PM
I didn't read this whole thing and its probably been mentioned, but RH? Pop? Alex Gonzalez.

OldRightHander
04-11-2008, 05:48 PM
I didn't read this whole thing and its probably been mentioned, but RH? Pop? Alex Gonzalez.

That thought crossed my mind the other day when I was listening to the game and the "what do we do with Keppinger when Gonzalez comes back" topic came up. If Kepp keeps hitting and playing solid defense, which he has been so far, then there's no reason Gonzalez shouldn't have a part time role when he's back. I wonder how he would be as a pinch hitter. Has he done much of it in the past?

Kc61
04-11-2008, 06:03 PM
To get back to the subject of the thread (didn't see "knock Castro" in the title), tonight's lineup is a perfect example of the need for some right handed pop on the team.

Lefty pitcher. Patterson sits for a righty batter, Hopper. But Votto, who didn't hit lefties at AAA, has to face the lefty.

It just makes more sense for the Reds to trade either Hatteberg or Freel, install Votto as the first baseman against righties, and add a righty first baseman for games like tonight's.

Even if one can't be acquired, I would call up Cabrera from AAA to play against lefties. It appears the guy can hit, is right handed, and plays first base.

The Reds have to become more formidable against lefty pitching.

redsfan4445
04-11-2008, 11:18 PM
losing 1-0 tonight shows we have to find a power RH hitter off the bench... I wish they would have kept Cantu!!!:(

redsfan4445
04-11-2008, 11:18 PM
To get back to the subject of the thread (didn't see "knock Castro" in the title), tonight's lineup is a perfect example of the need for some right handed pop on the team.

Lefty pitcher. Patterson sits for a righty batter, Hopper. But Votto, who didn't hit lefties at AAA, has to face the lefty.

It just makes more sense for the Reds to trade either Hatteberg or Freel, install Votto as the first baseman against righties, and add a righty first baseman for games like tonight's.

Even if one can't be acquired, I would call up Cabrera from AAA to play against lefties. It appears the guy can hit, is right handed, and plays first base.

The Reds have to become more formidable against lefty pitching.



I agree bring up Cabrera if they cant get a RH from another team right away!!

RedlegJake
04-11-2008, 11:39 PM
For cryin out loud, Jorge Cantu WOULD NOT fix this lineup. That's a red herring.

AGon & Ross will help when they get back but it'll take a couple of moves.

First I'd ship Votto to AAA. Young hitters don't need to be platooning or playing every other day. I didn't agree with that when the season began and still don't. Play him every day except against the tougher lefties, or send him down where he can until Hatte can be moved.

Platoon Kepp with Hatte at first base. Start Kepp at SS except when he's at first, then start AGon. Use AGon in Kepp's SS starts as a defensive replacement if the Reds get a lead late.

Ross and Bako platoon. Call up Hairston. Cut trade or send down Hopper since they probably won't eat Freel's contract and probably can't trade him. Cut Castro.

Net: Votto's getting to play every day, you've got RHers at C,1st,2d,SS,3B and CF against lefties. The RH catcher (Ross) is a weak hitter but has home run power, the RH 1stB (Kepp) is a solid hitter and CFer Hairston is a defensive drop but adequate and is a better hitter than Freel or Hopper. Against pedestrian lefties you might keep CP in the lineup. AGon has some pop at SS & BP and EE are mainstays.

The solution is in house but on the DL. Point is this won't continue to be this bad.

redsfan4445
04-11-2008, 11:44 PM
would you trade Votto in a deal for Ryan Garko?? He is a power hitting Righthanded bat on Cleveland.. I looked on mlb.com.. only two RH bats with lots of power other than Garko are Sexton and he is paid to much and also Dimtri Young, but he is hurt and old.. I like Garko!!

Patterson/Hopper CF
Keppenger SS
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Garko 1B
Edwin 3b
Ross/Bako/Valentin

RedlegJake
04-11-2008, 11:47 PM
would you trade Votto in a deal for Ryan Garko?? He is a power hitting Righthanded bat on Cleveland.. I looked on mlb.com.. only two RH bats with lots of power other than Garko are Sexton and he is paid to much and also Dimtri Young, but he is hurt and old.. I like Garko!!

I love your thinking but why would Cleveland do that?

KronoRed
04-11-2008, 11:52 PM
Young for Freel?

;)

pedro
04-12-2008, 12:04 AM
For cryin out loud, Jorge Cantu WOULD NOT fix this lineup. That's a red herring.

AGon & Ross will help when they get back but it'll take a couple of moves.

First I'd ship Votto to AAA. Young hitters don't need to be platooning or playing every other day. I didn't agree with that when the season began and still don't. Play him every day except against the tougher lefties, or send him down where he can until Hatte can be moved.

Platoon Kepp with Hatte at first base. Start Kepp at SS except when he's at first, then start AGon. Use AGon in Kepp's SS starts as a defensive replacement if the Reds get a lead late.

Ross and Bako platoon. Call up Hairston. Cut trade or send down Hopper since they probably won't eat Freel's contract and probably can't trade him. Cut Castro.

Net: Votto's getting to play every day, you've got RHers at C,1st,2d,SS,3B and CF against lefties. The RH catcher (Ross) is a weak hitter but has home run power, the RH 1stB (Kepp) is a solid hitter and CFer Hairston is a defensive drop but adequate and is a better hitter than Freel or Hopper. Against pedestrian lefties you might keep CP in the lineup. AGon has some pop at SS & BP and EE are mainstays.

The solution is in house but on the DL. Point is this won't continue to be this bad.

I think that's a good post but I disagree about Votto. I'd start him against RHP and use Hatteberg as the primary LH PH. I'm not worried about Votto being a platoon player, that's his likely upside IMO and I don't believe spending more time in AAA at his age is going to change that.

Kc61
04-12-2008, 01:25 AM
I think that's a good post but I disagree about Votto. I'd start him against RHP and use Hatteberg as the primary LH PH. I'm not worried about Votto being a platoon player, that's his likely upside IMO and I don't believe spending more time in AAA at his age is going to change that.

I agree that Votto should platoon at first for the Reds. He didn't hit lefties in the minors that well, his role on the Reds should be first baseman against righties. Still will get a lot of playing time that way.

The Reds have Cabrera at AAA and Andy Phillips at AAA. Each would be a decent option as a platoon first baseman. I don't see Keppinger as a platoon first baseman. I want some power from that postion.

Another thing the Reds should consider is moving Todd Frazier to first base promptly. The guy could probably hit major league left handed pitching right now, he's such an excellent hitter. He's not going to be a shortstop, why keep him there? And while I like Votto, it may be that -- if fast tracked -- Frazier might fit better as the everyday first baseman soon, giving the Reds some more right handed power.

RedlegJake
04-12-2008, 01:59 AM
I have no problem platooning Votto but Hatte should get traded first. 2 LH 1Bman is redundant and dumb. Valentin is a better LH than RH hitter and he can handle the ph duties since that's about the only thing he does. Having either Votto or Hatte on the bench just makes no sense and keeps a RH hitter off the roster. Note that I said Votto is down only until they can trade Hatte. I believe K is holding out for more than he's worth if the rumors that he's shopping him are true. Take a B level prospect Wayne and be done with it. He is just in the way at this point and the every other night stuff is keeping Joey and Hatteberg from getting in a groove.

pedro
04-12-2008, 02:02 AM
I have no problem platooning Votto but Hatte should get traded first. 2 LH 1Bman is redundant and dumb. Valentin is a better LH than RH hitter and he can handle the ph duties since that's about the only thing he does. Having wither Votto or Hattte on the bench just makes no sense and keeps a RH hitter off the roster.

I'd rather keep Hatteberg than Valentin.

RedlegJake
04-12-2008, 02:13 AM
I'd rather keep Hatteberg than Valentin.

Other than Valentin can catch in an emergency I completely agree. After Castro I probably value him less than any one else on the roster. Come to think of it if it was that big an emergency they could probaly use Hatte for one night until they could call up Hanigan.

pedro
04-12-2008, 02:19 AM
My gut feeling is that Valentin and Castro are the two guys on the bubble and that the Reds would also really like to trade Freel if they could.

Cedric
04-12-2008, 02:46 AM
The Reds simply can't compete over the long haul with this current roster makeup. Something drastic needs to be done to fix the problem this team has against LH pitching. Maholm was absolutely terrible tonight and yet he doesn't give up a run. He was wild early and teams like the Cardinals (Pujols), Cubs (Lee, Soriano, Ramirez) and even the Astros (Lee, Tejada) will beat up on the Pirates because of this. It's something that the Reds simply haven't fixed and it's honestly crushing.

mth123
04-12-2008, 07:50 AM
For cryin out loud, Jorge Cantu WOULD NOT fix this lineup. That's a red herring.

AGon & Ross will help when they get back but it'll take a couple of moves.

First I'd ship Votto to AAA. Young hitters don't need to be platooning or playing every other day. I didn't agree with that when the season began and still don't. Play him every day except against the tougher lefties, or send him down where he can until Hatte can be moved.

Platoon Kepp with Hatte at first base. Start Kepp at SS except when he's at first, then start AGon. Use AGon in Kepp's SS starts as a defensive replacement if the Reds get a lead late.

Ross and Bako platoon. Call up Hairston. Cut trade or send down Hopper since they probably won't eat Freel's contract and probably can't trade him. Cut Castro.

Net: Votto's getting to play every day, you've got RHers at C,1st,2d,SS,3B and CF against lefties. The RH catcher (Ross) is a weak hitter but has home run power, the RH 1stB (Kepp) is a solid hitter and CFer Hairston is a defensive drop but adequate and is a better hitter than Freel or Hopper. Against pedestrian lefties you might keep CP in the lineup. AGon has some pop at SS & BP and EE are mainstays.

The solution is in house but on the DL. Point is this won't continue to be this bad.

I agree with most of this. I think Votto down for a couple weeks to get in a groove while Hatte bumps his trade value by playing every day is a good idea. But Hatte needs to be moved soon to an AL team. Seattle could use him. The main disagreement is with calling up Hairston. I think the Reds need a RH bat that can play corner OF and possibly 1B. He needs to be a middle of the line-up power type and Hairston, Cabrera, Freel, Hopper or no in house options qualify. Get that guy in place of Hopper (Shelley Duncan would be a good example) and Griffey can sit against lefties too. It will keep Griffey healthy into the season. The line-up against lefties:

Freel CF
Keppinger 1B
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
EdE 3B
New Guy RF
Gonzlaez SS
Ross C

Against RH

Patterson CF (I like the 7 hole like everyone else, but I'm being realistic here)
Kepp SS
Griffey RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
Hatte (eventually Votto) 1B
EdE 3B
Bako C (or somebody else, but I don't really like Ross that much to make him the every day guy. He's OK against lefties of the choices on hand)

RedlegJake
04-12-2008, 08:55 AM
mth123...I agree with your post mostly. I think Hairston is a better player than Freel at this point. That's my reasoning for bringing him up. I agree Hatte needs to be dealt ASAP -at his point its making roster room not who you can get for him. Freel, too but as I pointed out I don't see him having any value now. As for another RH bat from somewhere, I also agree but who? Right this moment it's going to be very difficult to pry a good RH bat away from someone - or very, very costly in terms of talent. The perceived weaknes puts the Reds in the worst possible bargaining position. When you find yourself in that situation sometimes its better to jury rig in-house solutions and wait il you have more leverage.

GAC
04-12-2008, 09:06 AM
I have no problem platooning Votto but Hatte should get traded first. 2 LH 1Bman is redundant and dumb. Valentin is a better LH than RH hitter and he can handle the ph duties since that's about the only thing he does. Having either Votto or Hatte on the bench just makes no sense and keeps a RH hitter off the roster. Note that I said Votto is down only until they can trade Hatte. I believe K is holding out for more than he's worth if the rumors that he's shopping him are true. Take a B level prospect Wayne and be done with it. He is just in the way at this point and the every other night stuff is keeping Joey and Hatteberg from getting in a groove.

They wouldn't need to trade Hatte if they'd just release Castro. A Hatte, not Castro, preserves what bench strength we have.

What good is keeping Castro on this team even with Gonzo out? How much playing time has he seen? We have enough versatility with guys like Kepp and Freel that IMHO a Castro just isn't needed.

As far as RH'd pop in this lineup, Phillips provided it last year. I'm not gonna predict what he'll do so this year. But where has EE been as far as a RH'd slugger?

And as far as possessing it within this organization, the pickins are pretty thin IMHO.

Adam Rosales?

Andy Phillips? (below)

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs/2075_1B_season__lr_full_0_20080411.png

You sure aren't going to get much RH'd pop from either Janish or Gil.

mth123
04-12-2008, 09:28 AM
mth123...I agree with your post mostly. I think Hairston is a better player than Freel at this point. That's my reasoning for bringing him up. I agree Hatte needs to be dealt ASAP -at his point its making roster room not who you can get for him. Freel, too but as I pointed out I don't see him having any value now. As for another RH bat from somewhere, I also agree but who? Right this moment it's going to be very difficult to pry a good RH bat away from someone - or very, very costly in terms of talent. The perceived weaknes puts the Reds in the worst possible bargaining position. When you find yourself in that situation sometimes its better to jury rig in-house solutions and wait il you have more leverage.

RH OF Bats with some pop who are luxuries on teams with other needs right now:

Juan Rivera LA Angels - Not sure he can play RF, but with Griffey out there the bar on defensive ability is set pretty low. With the rotation injuries they have, there could be some interest in say a Belisle (overpayment by the Reds IMO) or Matt Maloney (I'd do that one). If the Reds deal Belisle, I'd want to make it a bigger deal and get a minor leaguer as well. Since they moved Mosley from the pen to the rotation, they may go for a pen arm like say a Coffey or a McBeth.

Delwyn Young or Jason Repko LA Dodgers. They are going to have a numbers issue when Garciaparra and La Roche get back and they already are crowded in the OF. Young is the better fit in Cincy (and is out of options) since Repko doesn't have a lot of power, but either is better than the in house options. Not sure what it would take to get them.

Jason Michaels Cleveland. The Indians have younger guys to backfill and would probably be happy to unload Michaels $2.15 Million.

Jayson Werth Philadephia. Werth hits LH Pitching and Philly may want to keep him to platoon with Geoff Jenkins, but they need bullpen help and a Coffey/Freel or Hopper for Werth and a minor leaguer would make sense. Philly gets a platoon guy back while adding to the pen and the Reds get a better fit.

Xavier Nady Pittsburgh. He was available but is off to a hot start and is probably pricey now. Pitt wants to make room for Steven Pearce and Nady is in the way. Not sure what it would take, but he would be perfect.

Marcus Thames Detroit. The Tigers really need help in the pen and when Granderson comes back will be looking for ways to get Brandon Inge in the line-up. They could trade Thames for a reliever (Coffey??) and let Inge platoon with Jacque Jones.

I'm sure there are others.

Far East
04-12-2008, 11:36 AM
Cantu couldn't hit lefties or play a lick of defense. He made little sense as a RH platoon partner anywhere.

Career OPS vs LHP: .733
In 2008, after 41 AB, Cantu has 2 HR, a .293 BA, .326 OBP, .488 SLG, and a .814 OPS.

What Reds' bench player -- LH or RH -- can match that?

KronoRed
04-12-2008, 01:59 PM
Hindsight is 20/20, the Reds had only his past numbers to look at before the season, and those numbers said to dump him.

He'll most likely return to his norms soon enough.

Will M
04-12-2008, 02:15 PM
RH OF Bats with some pop who are luxuries on teams with other needs right now:

Juan Rivera LA Angels - Not sure he can play RF, but with Griffey out there the bar on defensive ability is set pretty low. With the rotation injuries they have, there could be some interest in say a Belisle (overpayment by the Reds IMO) or Matt Maloney (I'd do that one). If the Reds deal Belisle, I'd want to make it a bigger deal and get a minor leaguer as well. Since they moved Mosley from the pen to the rotation, they may go for a pen arm like say a Coffey or a McBeth.

Delwyn Young or Jason Repko LA Dodgers. They are going to have a numbers issue when Garciaparra and La Roche get back and they already are crowded in the OF. Young is the better fit in Cincy (and is out of options) since Repko doesn't have a lot of power, but either is better than the in house options. Not sure what it would take to get them.

Jason Michaels Cleveland. The Indians have younger guys to backfill and would probably be happy to unload Michaels $2.15 Million.

Jayson Werth Philadephia. Werth hits LH Pitching and Philly may want to keep him to platoon with Geoff Jenkins, but they need bullpen help and a Coffey/Freel or Hopper for Werth and a minor leaguer would make sense. Philly gets a platoon guy back while adding to the pen and the Reds get a better fit.

Xavier Nady Pittsburgh. He was available but is off to a hot start and is probably pricey now. Pitt wants to make room for Steven Pearce and Nady is in the way. Not sure what it would take, but he would be perfect.

Marcus Thames Detroit. The Tigers really need help in the pen and when Granderson comes back will be looking for ways to get Brandon Inge in the line-up. They could trade Thames for a reliever (Coffey??) and let Inge platoon with Jacque Jones.

I'm sure there are others.

Will M
04-12-2008, 02:19 PM
RH OF Bats with some pop who are luxuries on teams with other needs right now:

Juan Rivera LA Angels - Not sure he can play RF, but with Griffey out there the bar on defensive ability is set pretty low. With the rotation injuries they have, there could be some interest in say a Belisle (overpayment by the Reds IMO) or Matt Maloney (I'd do that one). If the Reds deal Belisle, I'd want to make it a bigger deal and get a minor leaguer as well. Since they moved Mosley from the pen to the rotation, they may go for a pen arm like say a Coffey or a McBeth.

Delwyn Young or Jason Repko LA Dodgers. They are going to have a numbers issue when Garciaparra and La Roche get back and they already are crowded in the OF. Young is the better fit in Cincy (and is out of options) since Repko doesn't have a lot of power, but either is better than the in house options. Not sure what it would take to get them.

Jason Michaels Cleveland. The Indians have younger guys to backfill and would probably be happy to unload Michaels $2.15 Million.

Jayson Werth Philadephia. Werth hits LH Pitching and Philly may want to keep him to platoon with Geoff Jenkins, but they need bullpen help and a Coffey/Freel or Hopper for Werth and a minor leaguer would make sense. Philly gets a platoon guy back while adding to the pen and the Reds get a better fit.

Xavier Nady Pittsburgh. He was available but is off to a hot start and is probably pricey now. Pitt wants to make room for Steven Pearce and Nady is in the way. Not sure what it would take, but he would be perfect.

Marcus Thames Detroit. The Tigers really need help in the pen and when Granderson comes back will be looking for ways to get Brandon Inge in the line-up. They could trade Thames for a reliever (Coffey??) and let Inge platoon with Jacque Jones.

I'm sure there are others.

Nady is ideal. Costs $ so Pittsburgh would be happy to move him. Plays good defense in the OF and can also play 1B. Hits lefties well and doesn't hit righties well enough to be a good every day corner outfielder.

Marcus Thames is also a good choice as is Matt Murton.

Remember Keppinger can play the outfield so a RH first baseman would be ok but not as ideal as a RH RF/LF.

I am pretty sick of losing to every generic lefty in the NL. If this team is going to be a contender we need a RH hitting outfielder with power and we all knew this all winter long.

pedro
04-12-2008, 02:29 PM
Besides the fact that the way Cantu's contract worked it would have cost several million dollars to keep him.

Just not worth it.

Caveat Emperor
04-12-2008, 02:42 PM
Something drastic needs to be done to fix the problem this team has against LH pitching.

If there's a trade to be made out there, I'm all for it -- but I also think it would be foolhardy to mess up positive growth elsewhere just because, after a couple games, the team still seems to have a problem with junkballing lefties.

Quite simply, there aren't enough of them out there to really justify a drastic move.

Far East
04-12-2008, 02:54 PM
Besides the fact that the way Cantu's contract worked it would have cost several million dollars to keep him.

Just not worth it.

How may fans right now would trade Hatteberg for Cantu? He (RHH) could create a real platoon with Votto (LHH) at 1B, giving the youngster more PT -- and perhaps back up Edwin at 3B.

reds44
04-12-2008, 02:55 PM
Hatteberg is a better hitter than Cantu is.

KronoRed
04-12-2008, 03:03 PM
Cantu may be right handed but he stinks vs left handers and has for his entire career.

Caveat Emperor
04-12-2008, 03:16 PM
How may fans right now would trade Hatteberg for Cantu? He (RHH) could create a real platoon with Votto (LHH) at 1B, giving the youngster more PT -- and perhaps back up Edwin at 3B.

Cantu's numbers against LHP are actually in this thread -- scroll back up and take a look. David Ross his roughly equivalent numbers v. LHP for his career.

Jorge Cantu is not the answer.

pedro
04-12-2008, 03:25 PM
How may fans right now would trade Hatteberg for Cantu? He (RHH) could create a real platoon with Votto (LHH) at 1B, giving the youngster more PT -- and perhaps back up Edwin at 3B.

I don't really care how many "fans" would do it.

"fans" routinely vote for substandard players to be on the all star team too. That doesn't mean they're right.

Far East
04-12-2008, 03:29 PM
Cantu may be right handed but he stinks vs left handers and has for his entire career.

Hatteberg against LHP last 3 seasons: .218, .309, .321, .630

Cantu versus LHP last 3 seasons: .243, .281, .425, .706

Differences: Hatteberg has a better OBP, but Cantu has a better BA, SLG, OPS, plays 3B too, and is only 26 years old.

reds44
04-12-2008, 03:33 PM
Hatteberg against LHP last 3 seasons: .218, .309, .321, .630

Cantu versus LHP last 3 seasons: .243, .281, .425, .706

Differences: Hatteberg has a better OBP, but Cantu has a better BA, SLG, OPS, plays 3B too, and is only 26 years old.
They both suck vs. lefties, and Hatteberg can actually hit righties.

nate
04-12-2008, 03:34 PM
In 2008, after 41 AB, Cantu has 2 HR, a .293 BA, .326 OBP, .488 SLG, and a .814 OPS.

What Reds' bench player -- LH or RH -- can match that?

Well, in 40 odd at bats, you can find a lot of guys with numbers like that. Sometimes, in the most unlikely places:



Juan Castro from (Jun 25, 2006) to (Aug 5, 2006)

G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS
+---+---+---+---+---+--+--+--+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+
20 46 44 5 15 4 0 2 7 2 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 1 .341 .370 .568 .938



;)

pedro
04-12-2008, 03:34 PM
Hatteberg against LHP last 3 seasons: .218, .309, .321, .630

Cantu versus LHP last 3 seasons: .243, .281, .425, .706

Differences: Hatteberg has a better OBP, but Cantu has a better BA, SLG, OPS, plays 3B too, and is only 26 years old.

You're conveniently ignoring the fact that in all likelihood when Gonzalez comes back, Jeff Keppinger, with his lifetime .908 OPS vs. LHP, will be the first baseman, not Scott Hatteberg.

And seriously, you're honestly pimping a guy that would have cost several million dollars based on a .706 OPS vs. LHP?

Far East
04-12-2008, 06:11 PM
They both suck vs. lefties, and Hatteberg can actually hit righties.


You're conveniently ignoring the fact that in all likelihood when Gonzalez comes back, Jeff Keppinger, with his lifetime .908 OPS vs. LHP, will be the first baseman, not Scott Hatteberg.

And seriously, you're honestly pimping a guy that would have cost several million dollars based on a .706 OPS vs. LHP?

A. One of the concerns is for getting a RH hitter with some pop for the bench.
B. A second concern has been to replace one of the LHH first basemen.
C. Cantu hits LHP better than Hatteberg does.
D. Cantu is younger and can play another IF position.
E. With Cantu on the team, where Keppinger would play could be 1B ... or maybe he beats out Gonzalez at SS, or maybe he's at a OF corner and Cantu at 1B against southpaw opponents.
It just beats the redundant Votto/Hatteberg against righties AND lefties.

pedro
04-12-2008, 06:15 PM
But Cantu can't hit lefties.

Never has.

Hatteberg serves the purpose of LH PH.

Cantu serves the purpose of sucking.

RichRed
04-12-2008, 06:56 PM
D. Cantu is younger and can play another IF position.


Not if you like good defense, he can't.

RedsManRick
04-12-2008, 08:36 PM
An idea from the SunDeck... Sammy Sosa. He did hit .328/.410/.613 vL last year...

reds44
04-12-2008, 08:51 PM
An idea from the SunDeck... Sammy Sosa. He did hit .328/.410/.613 vL last year...
Yeah I saw that as well. That's a very, very interesting idea. I'm just not sure he would play. Maybe start him out in the minors and teach him some 1B?

Raisor
04-12-2008, 09:01 PM
Convert Sosa to a Catcher.

The Baumer
04-12-2008, 10:14 PM
^ See title.

klw
04-12-2008, 10:15 PM
As I said on page 4 of this thread, I don't see Sosa as a fit unless Hopper was moved and even then I doubt it. Poor fit for this or any NL team at this point.

Tony Cloninger
04-12-2008, 10:40 PM
If only Chris Stynes and Eduardo Perez could come back and pretend it's 1997-98.

KronoRed
04-12-2008, 11:07 PM
If only Chris Stynes and Eduardo Perez could come back and pretend it's 1997-98.

Lets give Sabo a call.