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redsupport
04-08-2008, 11:28 PM
You have a closer who sits on the bench while an inferior reliver loses a game.
The opportunities to win games are not that prevalent. The closer should pitch with the score tied. Who knows when you get another opportunity, why pay millions for a closer and watch Weathers lose a game.

Modern day insanity, older closers used to pitch in tie games

DTCromer
04-08-2008, 11:30 PM
You have a closer who sits on the bench while an inferior reliver loses a game.
The opportunities to win games are not that prevalent. The closer should pitch with the score tied. Who knows when you get another opportunity, why pay millions for a closer and watch Weathers lose a game.

Modern day insanity, older closers used to pitch in tie games

Who was going to score for us? Better to save CoCo for tomorrow.

Dusty isn't the problem right now. The sooner everyone realizes this, the better.

Degenerate39
04-08-2008, 11:32 PM
Who was going to score for us? Better to save CoCo for tomorrow.

Dusty isn't the problem right now. The sooner everyone realizes this, the better.

The offense is the problem right now. They should've killed Suppan today he didn't look good at all.

Dunn's cold, Edwin's cold, Votto is warming up, Hatte is cold. Those are important players in this offense and if they don't heat up soon the Reds are in trouble.

TheBigLebowski
04-08-2008, 11:32 PM
Who was going to score for us? Better to save CoCo for tomorrow.

Dusty isn't the problem right now. The sooner everyone realizes this, the better.

Dusty is not the only problem but he is a problem. I went into the season excited about him. 8 games in and I see why so many people were horrified when we hired him.

HeatherC1212
04-08-2008, 11:35 PM
The offense lost this game today. Our pitching was good enough to win but everytime we got someone on base, the next guy couldn't drive him in. Those bats need to wake up and FAST. :eek:

BoCcc2832
04-08-2008, 11:38 PM
No, it's bad baseball if you use the closer for a tie game. Because then, what happens if Coco goes two innings, we get the lead in the top of the 12th inning, who's closing for us? Uh oh! Modern day insanity, older closers used to close the game out! What a concept! No, you save your closer for when you really need and don't unnecessarily tax your best arm. You need to learn that first before you criticize a Major League manager.

TheBigLebowski
04-08-2008, 11:41 PM
The decision to use Stormy was not an awful one and I do agree that it was probably best to save FC, at least in the 9th.

Still, Dusty has made a slew of inexplicable decisions this young season - even tonight - and I am officially concerned that he may not have the baseball acumen to lead this team anywhere.

Mutaman
04-08-2008, 11:43 PM
Dusty is not the only problem but he is a problem. I went into the season excited about him. 8 games in and I see why so many people were horrified when we hired him.


I'm really curious. What has Dusty done over the frirst eight games that could possibly justify the statement "I see why so many people were horrified when we hired him"? Get a grip.

AdamDunn
04-08-2008, 11:47 PM
Weathers threw 7 pitches to get through the first inning. That's why Dusty let him stay in. So far, the only glaring mistake I've seen Dusty do is put Castro in the two-hole the other night. Another possible mistake are letting Harang throw too many pitches in his second outing. I don't like to see pitchers throwing more than a hundred pitches until their third or fourth outing.

Rounding Third
04-08-2008, 11:50 PM
No, it's bad baseball if you use the closer for a tie game. Because then, what happens if Coco goes two innings, we get the lead in the top of the 12th inning, who's closing for us? Uh oh! Modern day insanity, older closers used to close the game out! What a concept! No, you save your closer for when you really need and don't unnecessarily tax your best arm. You need to learn that first before you criticize a Major League manager.

You don't get to that situation 2 innings later if you lose the game now.

redsupport
04-08-2008, 11:55 PM
exactly, you dont save the closer for circumstances that dont exist. you lost the game, end of discussion

BoCcc2832
04-08-2008, 11:56 PM
David Weathers is a fine pitcher, who if you haven't noticed, hasn't lost any velocity on his fastball in the past few years. He can still hit 88 mph and can still beat the best of them. Last year, he was our closer and would still be if it weren't for the signing of Cordero. So to criticize a manager who didn't watch the team, but knows how well Weathers pitched last year and has confidence in that player to put him in the tough situation is ludicrous. Weathers breezed through the ninth inning and there was initially no inclination that he would lose it in the next inning. As they say, hindsight is 20/20...I think putting Weathers out there for the tenth was the right move and I stand by Dusty's decision.

Mutaman
04-08-2008, 11:57 PM
exactly, you dont save the closer for circumstances that dont exist. you lost the game, end of discussion

Second Guessing! End of discussion.

redsupport
04-09-2008, 12:02 AM
what did you save cordero for, what if in the next few days the scores are not close, then you would have lost a one run game to the first place team without pitching your best reliever. Nice work

mlbfan30
04-09-2008, 12:02 AM
I hate how Baker has absolutely no trust in Votto. It's really pathetic.

Mutaman
04-09-2008, 12:07 AM
I hate how Baker has absolutely no trust in Votto. It's really pathetic.

C. Trent (4/8/8):


"Shouse is a killer on lefties. He's the one guy I've heard Hatteberg say he wants nothing to do with. I mean, he's nearly impossible for lefties to hit. And a rookie against him?"

BoCcc2832
04-09-2008, 12:08 AM
So much for support for the Reds...here's how they do it in the big leagues...if Cordero doesn't get work in after a few days, he'll make a bullpen session where he'll get 20-30 pitches in to Stefanski. Or, he'll come in and pitch an inning where the game is out of hand and get some work in. Either way, he'll maintain a decent work schedule.

Also, it's not the Baker doesn't have faith in Votto. It's the fact that you have a submariner throwing left handed against a left-handed batter. That's hard to work against, especially with a young man that's currently struggling. Going with a right handed batter was a better strategic move. Unfortunately, Dusty chose the wrong person. It should have been Freel, I think.

redsupport
04-09-2008, 12:10 AM
thats greeat too bad they cant erase this loss with a bullpen session, this game was there for the winning there is no do over, you lose a tie game with your best reliever not a retread

TheBigLebowski
04-09-2008, 12:11 AM
I'm really curious. What has Dusty done over the frirst eight games that could possibly justify the statement "I see why so many people were horrified when we hired him"? Get a grip.

The decision to have EE bunt in game 2 vs. the D'Backs. He has never laid down a successful bunt. Let him swing away or put in a PH who can bunt. Just because EE failed to lay down the bunt twice and then was forced to swing and win the game does not mean Dusty managed well.

Johnny Cueto is an amazing pitcher but a horrible hitter. Tonight, with the Reds down 1-0 in the 7th, a runner on 2nd and one down, Dusty lets Cueto hit against Suppan with Hatte on the bench. Cueto had thrown 85 pitches already and clearly wasn't pitching past the 7th. We had Burton ready to go. The OBVIOUS decision is to PH there. Instead, DB lets JC hit. With 2 strikes, JC is lucky enough to top a ball to the SS, resulting in the runner moving to 3rd with 2 down. Corey then delivered a single which scored the runner. Not good managing. The ends do not justify the means.

In the 10th inning, Jason Kendall should have been walked. We would have had 1st and 2nd with one out rather than runners at first and third with one out. Considering that one run wins the game and a runner at first sets up the DP, pitching to Kendall (who is swinging one of the hottest bats in the league, btw) makes NO sense. None. His run means nothing at first. Of course, Kendall singled and only CPat's hustle kept the runner at 3rd.

Next batter - Rickie Weeks, he of the fleet feet. Seems obvious that we'd want to walk him - not only because he is not a good DP candidate because of his speed but because an IBB creates a force out at all bases. No..makes too much sense. Dusty pitches to him and he singles. Ballgame.

Please do not try to pass these baffling and horrible decisions off on Dusty being "unconventional." Would you describe some dude performing a handstand with a blindfold on in a busy freeway as suicidal or unconventional?

HeatherC1212
04-09-2008, 12:12 AM
thats greeat too bad they cant erase this loss with a bullpen session, this game was there for the winning there is no do over, you lose a tie game with your best reliever not a retread

The OFFENSE lost this game tonight. The Reds had tons of opportunities to drive a run in and they did not get it done. The game may not have even gone to extras if the guys were actually hitting the ball with guys on base. Stop blaming this on them not using Cordero. That makes no sense at all. :confused:

BoCcc2832
04-09-2008, 12:14 AM
That's the thing you're not understanding, redsupport! The game wasn't there for the winning! That's why Coco wasn't in there in the first place. We were trying to maintain the game while we were on defense. There is no potential for scoring on defense in baseball, unlike our other major sports. So when you are on the field, you are just trying to get the other team off the scoreboard. Granted, it didn't work this time, but generally, you are not going to find a manager who will put his closer in the tenth inning where both teams are struggling to score. It's just not going to happen.

redsupport
04-09-2008, 12:15 AM
the game was "lost" by weathers, The offense was incompetent that does not justify idiotic managing. The closer sat idle against the first place club in extra innings. Weathers is maybe the third or fourth best reliever on the team.

Mutaman
04-09-2008, 12:16 AM
what did you save cordero for, what if in the next few days the scores are not close, then you would have lost a one run game to the first place team without pitching your best reliever. Nice work


What if you had brought in Codero and he had gotten the Brewers out and the Reds didn't score in the top of the 11th. Then what? What if they didn't score in the top of the 12th? Or what if they did score, who would you pitch to get the save in the bottom of the 11th? Are you going to start pitching Cordeo for two innings in April?

Weathers had annother inning left in him, he did't get the job done. Leaving him in was the right move. Moreover, if you wanted Cordeo so bad, why didn't you let us all know that before the damage was done. Complaining after the fact is called second guessing , or redboarding if you prefer. Anybody can do it.

redsupport
04-09-2008, 12:18 AM
"closers" in the 70's and 80's pitched when the game was tied. There are just not that many opportunities to win close games. Tomorrows game might be 8-1 and then there is no chance to pitch. A 2-2, game merits a closer whether or not todays managers do it. Baseball preceeded the last ten years, relievers like Face, Linzy, Fingers, Lyle, etc even Eastwick pitched two innings in tie games. Losing the game with an inferior reliever has nothing to do with inept offense

kaldaniels
04-09-2008, 12:20 AM
I think the key factor tonight was...it was a away game. If the Reds were going to win...there was going to be a save situation.

This subject is debatable, I of course realize. But, the fact that is was a road game was a huge if not the main reason Weathers went back out for the 10th.

BoCcc2832
04-09-2008, 12:23 AM
Baseball is a different game than it was in the seventies and eighties...players are a whole lot bigger and more powerful. Ballparks are smaller and the true ballplayer that was prevalent in that time period are scarce. You have to play the game by the rules that are in motion today, not thirty years ago. You can't use Babe Ruth's tactics whole-heartedly today, because the game is different. Honor the great history of baseball, but don't use that as an excuse.

Mutaman
04-09-2008, 12:28 AM
Please do not try to pass these baffling and horrible decisions off on Dusty being "unconventional." Would you describe some dude performing a handstand with a blindfold on in a busy freeway as suicidal or unconventional?

Sorry buddy but if over 8 games the best you can come up with is that EE shouldn't have tried to bunt or that Dusty should have walked Jason Kendall to get to Rickey Weeks, I would say that you have failed to show me "a slew of inexplicable decisions".

Indeed I may disagree with any or all of Dusty's decisions in your 4 examples, reasonable men can disagree. But to call these decisions "baffling and horrible" is a liitle bit over the top.

NDReds9
04-09-2008, 02:27 AM
- Burns his best pinch hitter by sticking him in the 7th hole, just vacated by Votto. Hatteberg would have been a great option against Gagne.

- Uses Weathers for 2 innings, and stays with him when we need either a 1) strikeout or 2) double play. Weathers is almost incapable of getting a strikeout when he absolutely needs it. Weeks is fast, and would need to hit a hard grounder right at Kepp or BP for a double play. Thus, Cordero should have been summoned from the pen.

- The other day, when the Reds had a 6-1 lead, or 8-2, or something of that sort, he had Castro playing 2B with Kepp at SS. In that situation, you want your best fielding team on the field. Why is Castro on the team if he isn't a better fielding SS than Keppinger?

It's simple - Dusty makes stupid baseball decisions. I think he would be best suited as a Bench Coach. He doesn't have the IQ to be making decisions for this team.

improbus
04-09-2008, 06:37 AM
- Burns his best pinch hitter by sticking him in the 7th hole, just vacated by Votto. Hatteberg would have been a great option against Gagne.

- Uses Weathers for 2 innings, and stays with him when we need either a 1) strikeout or 2) double play. Weathers is almost incapable of getting a strikeout when he absolutely needs it. Weeks is fast, and would need to hit a hard grounder right at Kepp or BP for a double play. Thus, Cordero should have been summoned from the pen.

- The other day, when the Reds had a 6-1 lead, or 8-2, or something of that sort, he had Castro playing 2B with Kepp at SS. In that situation, you want your best fielding team on the field. Why is Castro on the team if he isn't a better fielding SS than Keppinger?

It's simple - Dusty makes stupid baseball decisions. I think he would be best suited as a Bench Coach. He doesn't have the IQ to be making decisions for this team.

So all those winning teams he had were just luck? Who do you want, Miley? Narron? Boone? MacKanin? There is a reason he has a .528 winning percentage as a manager (38th all time, which is pretty good).

To me, baseball managers aren't judged on their day to day decisions, which are all able to be questioned (see Eric Wedge), but on their ability to get players to play hard and perform over the long haul. No one can deny that Baker has done this. He almost got the Cubs to the WS....the CUBS! give him more than 8 games before you kill him. There is a reason that Dusty is a big league manager and we post on message boards...

TheBigLebowski
04-09-2008, 08:39 AM
Sorry buddy but if over 8 games the best you can come up with is that EE shouldn't have tried to bunt or that Dusty should have walked Jason Kendall to get to Rickey Weeks, I would say that you have failed to show me "a slew of inexplicable decisions".

Indeed I may disagree with any or all of Dusty's decisions in your 4 examples, reasonable men can disagree. But to call these decisions "baffling and horrible" is a liitle bit over the top.

That's 4 horrible decisions in 8 games. Bear in mind I have not seen every game so I might be missing some. Still, I do not like the ratio - ridiculous critical decision every other game. Guess it all hinges on what constitutes a "slew" but I won't bother hammering that one out with you. I hate arguments about semantics. We'll just have to agree to disagree and I'll just have to hope Dusty's decision making improves.

IowaRed
04-09-2008, 09:26 AM
Baker, in my opinion, has always been a horrible X's and O's guy. I didn't see a lot of the games he managed while in SF but got to see a lot of the games he managed in Chicago. I've said it probably too many times now but I honestly believe that when Baker's teams in Chicago and San Fran won, it was in spite of him. If you can stand talking to Cubs fans, ask a few what they think of Baker as a manager, I'm surrounded by them here in Iowa and I can't find any that thought he consistently made sound decisions and played the best players.

To his credit, most of the players seem to like playing for him. How much that matters in wins and losses, I don't know but as a lifelong Reds fan I hope it helps. I just don't see it offsetting his managing.

bubbachunk
04-09-2008, 09:36 AM
Baker yet again made the correct decision no question.

redsupport
04-09-2008, 09:51 AM
great decision, losethe game while cordero sits, nice

DTCromer
04-09-2008, 09:53 AM
great decision, losethe game while cordero sits, nice

No, we lost the game because we stranded too many runners on base and we managed 1 run off Jeff Suppan who has a career 5.58 ERA (even higher before last night's game) in 71 career IP vs. the Reds.

redsupport
04-09-2008, 10:04 AM
just last week in the game bako got the winning infield hit cordero was brought in at 3-3 why?

redsupport
04-09-2008, 10:04 AM
no we lost the game cause weathers gave up the winbning run, weathers was the losing pitcher not the offense

Degenerate39
04-09-2008, 10:11 AM
The Reds can't win every single game they play. Just get over the lose and hope they do better today it's all you can do.

Caveman Techie
04-09-2008, 10:17 AM
So by your logic we should pitch the closer whenever there is a close/tie game. Heck why wait till the 9th inning, why not just bring in the closer immeadiately after lifting the starter. Heck, why even have a bullpen at all Cordero is making 46 million dollars he can be the bullpen. :rolleyes:

You may disagree with Dusty sending Weathers out there for the 10th inning, but the decision to not use Cordero in the 10th was the right decision.

EddieMilner
04-09-2008, 10:22 AM
no we lost the game cause weathers gave up the winbning run, weathers was the losing pitcher not the offense

A baseball game has many factors that causes the outcome. Because David Weathers was pitching when the Brewers scored their last run, does not mean David Weathers lost the game. He was one of the factors, here are the others:
-The Reds scored 2 runs in 10 innings, typically that isn't going to get it done.
-The Reds left too many runners on base, typically leaving an insane amount of runners stranded is not going to get it done.

I would say those are the contributing factors that led to the Reds losing last night.

Closers (in this day) are used to win a game that your team is ahead in. We were tied in the 10th, our relief pitcher (who is our set up man) had a short inning in the 9th, I have absolutely no problem with putting him back out for the 10th. We needed to keep our closer for the situation of us scoring a run in the top of the inning, and closing out the game and getting us a win. Thats his job, thats what the Reds are paying him a lot of money to do.

Someone, in a previous post, said we should have walked Weeks (a .241 hitter) to get to Kapler who is hitting at a .438 clip. I disagree with that logic completely. You do not want to load the bases to then have to get out Kapler, and Fielder with out scoring a run.

TheBigLebowski
04-09-2008, 10:29 AM
FWIW, I will say that Weathers pitching the 10th was not an awful decision. It's one of Dusty's calls that I do not take issue with.

EddieMilner
04-09-2008, 10:29 AM
just last week in the game bako got the winning infield hit cordero was brought in at 3-3 why?

we were at home, and we could win the game in the bottom of the 9th. On the road, the home team gets the last chance to score (that being the Brewers last night). It was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for us to win the game in the bottom of the 10th, since the Brewers were at bat. In the situation you are presenting above, Dusty put it on his offense to win the game. They did, good guess/motivating/managing (whichever you prefer) on his part.

Lockdwn11
04-09-2008, 10:36 AM
we were at home, and we could win the game in the bottom of the 9th. On the road, the home team gets the last chance to score (that being the Brewers last night). It was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for us to win the game in the bottom of the 10th, since the Brewers were at bat. In the situation you are presenting above, Dusty put it on his offense to win the game. They did, good guess/motivating/managing (whichever you prefer) on his part.

Do you really have to ask? Well, Eddie has your answer.

Hey Meat
04-09-2008, 11:06 AM
You have a closer who sits on the bench while an inferior reliver loses a game.
The opportunities to win games are not that prevalent. The closer should pitch with the score tied. Who knows when you get another opportunity, why pay millions for a closer and watch Weathers lose a game.

Modern day insanity, older closers used to pitch in tie games

I agree, Cordero should have been in there with the score tied.

redsupport
04-15-2008, 11:26 PM
He certainly is getting a lot of work watching coffey's deliveries leave the yard.

goreds2
04-15-2008, 11:31 PM
Cordero does need to get more work in whether we are getting blown out or not. He did pitch an inning on Sunday.

EddieMilner
04-16-2008, 11:28 AM
He certainly is getting a lot of work watching coffey's deliveries leave the yard.

Holy Moly, let it go.

redsupport
04-16-2008, 11:31 AM
let what go the fact the cordero is wasting time or the fact that coffey is a useless retread

EddieMilner
04-16-2008, 11:37 AM
let what go the fact the cordero is wasting time or the fact that coffey is a useless retread

I was referring to trying to come up with a reason after the fact that it was unintelligent by the manager to not have Cordero pitch the top of the 10th inning in Milwaukee. That is what you should let go of. I am sure that cordero is having bull pen sessions to keep in shape.

We spent a lot of money on a closer, some say its good, some say its bad. I feel like you are saying we need to run him out there more, because he costs us more money. Is that correct?

Cordero not pitching last night and Coffey pitching last night are two completely seperate issues. If you don't want coffey on the team, I have no problem with that. However thinking that if Coffey was off the team and someone else had his spot, that Cordero would have pitched last night - that is foolish.

Degenerate39
04-16-2008, 12:12 PM
If the Reds were in more closing situations then you wouldn't have to worry about Coco's playing time. No sense of wasting him if the Reds are getting beat like last night. Unless the game is tied, they're down by a run (if you absolutely need him), or there's a save situation. Then you reall shouldn't use Coco.

BurgervilleBuck
04-16-2008, 12:27 PM
Dusty is not the only problem but he is a problem. I went into the season excited about him. 8 games in and I see why so many people were horrified when we hired him.
Yah, he really screwed it up when the Reds had the bases loaded last night.

EddieMilner
04-16-2008, 01:13 PM
Yah, he really screwed it up when the Reds had the bases loaded last night.

are you being sarcastic? Please tell me you are. The cubs made two great plays to get out of the inning (a diving second basemen flipping the ball with his glove, and a great stop by Derek Lee to turn two).

Degenerate39
04-16-2008, 01:19 PM
are you being sarcastic? Please tell me you are. The cubs made two great plays to get out of the inning (a diving second basemen flipping the ball with his glove, and a great stop by Derek Lee to turn two).

That catch by the 2nd baseman cost the Reds 1 run and an out. I really don't see how that was Dusty's fault

Hondo
04-16-2008, 10:56 PM
Ok so what I don't understand, tonite's game against the Cubs? Baker brings Cordero in for absolutly NO Reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!

in a 11-3 Game? He walks 3 straight Batters?

Why even use CoCo tonight?