PDA

View Full Version : What moves are you making tomorrow?



VR
04-13-2008, 06:20 PM
Encarnacion?
Freel?
Coffey?
Lineup changes?

Stand pat?

Matt700wlw
04-13-2008, 06:21 PM
I could see maybe A move tomorrow (Edwin maybe?)...but most likely, I don't see anything happening until they come home at the earliest.

deltachi8
04-13-2008, 06:23 PM
checking into the hotel in Chicago. Thats about it

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 06:26 PM
Looking up from second to last place in the NL Central.

reds44
04-13-2008, 06:27 PM
I can think of two, but I doubt either will happen.

Tony Cloninger
04-13-2008, 06:32 PM
Buy more cowbell.

RedRoser
04-13-2008, 06:33 PM
I'd sit Encarnacion or Adam Dunn in favor of Ryan Freel, or sit both in favor of Freel and Hopper. If Gonzalez can return soon, I'd move Keppinger to 3B on a regular basis; if not, I would be working the phones if I were Wayne Krivsky trying to deal for a third baseman.

fearofpopvol1
04-13-2008, 06:47 PM
I wouldn't make any changes...not yet at least.

GAC
04-13-2008, 07:38 PM
Just my regular moves. I try to keep to schedule.

RedEye
04-13-2008, 07:40 PM
The Reds are 13 games into the season and 1 game under .500. Don't you think it's a bit early to press the panic button?

Always Red
04-13-2008, 07:40 PM
...or sit both in favor of Freel and Hopper....

That would be one very ugly team.

*Hopper needs to go. Too one dimensional.
*Freel? a 4th OF, back-up IF on my team. As he is on this one.
*Castro needs to go. Need I say anything else?
*Coffey needs to find himself at a place that doesn't involve Reds losses, until he can find a way to get a 2nd pitch over the plate for strikes.
*Encarnacion? What to do with Edwin? He is literally a major league head case. All the talent in the world, but cannot play (offense OR defense) unless it's above 80 degrees. Yes, I do think it is temperature related. That is a sign of maturity. This team needs him to mature, and quickly, because there is no other RH bat.
*The defense and fundamentals of this team are still below average. That may be a function of personnel, or it may be ingrained into the culture??
*We need a RH catcher to compliment Paul Bako (did I really say that?).
*Valentin needs to be released, unless the Reds trade Hatteburg.
*Votto needs to play everyday at 1B.

AND, this will be controversial, but this Reds team needs to decide between Griffey and Dunn, IMHO. They can afford to have one on the field, but not both. They have literally morphed into the same player. This team needs speed and defense in the outfield. I know there are Junior lovers and Junior haters here on this site, but the truth lies somewhere in-between (and I am neither- i recognize Junior's greatness in the past, and his mediocrity now.) I do not blame Junior, in any way, for this teams start, but no team in serious contention for a title will have Griffey, Jr batting 3rd every single day. I fear that the truth of the matter is, at this point, both Junior and Dunner are American league players, who need to be able to DH or play 1B at least half the time.

This is the first time, in a very long time, that pitching is not the immediate problem. Every team struggle with middle and long relief.

I love the Redlegs. I hate losing three in a row to the stinkin Pirates.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 07:41 PM
The Reds are 13 games into the season and 1 game under .500. Don't you think it's a bit early to press the panic button?

Who's panicking?

fearofpopvol1
04-13-2008, 07:44 PM
Who's panicking?

A lot of people on RZ

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 07:47 PM
A lot of people on RZ

Does it make everyone feel better to point out what boarders are doing versus what the Reds are or are not doing?

I don't see "panicking" myself; I see a bad team. I don't think there's anything at all besides trades that could improve the team. But I think others are probably making recommendations that they genuinely think will work. Bully for them; I'm interested in reading them, even if I don't agree with all of them.

What I don't give a hoot about is "mood policing" myself. But that's just me.

RedEye
04-13-2008, 07:49 PM
Who's panicking?

Maybe I misread the intention of the thread; I thought the idea was that there needed to be some kind of major shake-up to the roster and/or the lineup.

FWIW, I think EdE will be fine if we just let him play his position day in and day out, hit in the same lineup spot on a regular basis, and relax without looking over his shoulder. At the very least, we should give him a full season to prove he really is a headcase as accused. To my mind, at only 24, he is still the most promising RH bat we have had on our team in quite awhile.

If there's any change I'd propose, it would just be to give Votto more AB's. That's it. We just don't know what we've got yet here, folks. It's too early.

reds44
04-13-2008, 07:53 PM
Call up Hairston Jr, DFA Castro
Call up Bray, send down Coffey

I'd probably flip Votto and Edwin in lineup too.

RedEye
04-13-2008, 07:56 PM
I don't see "panicking" myself; I see a bad team. I don't think there's anything at all besides trades that could improve the team. But I think others are probably making recommendations that they genuinely think will work. Bully for them; I'm interested in reading them, even if I don't agree with all of them.


Maybe I shouldn't have said "panicking." I think that's where the confusion began. What I meant by it was that people are "jumping to conclusions" to call this a bad team so soon. I know it sucks to get swept by the Pirates, but there are too many good hitters on this team for the offense not to wake up eventually. The pitching will likely be inconsistent, but they've already shown more starting talent and bullpen depth than either of Krivsky's two previous squads.

I'm not saying they are a great team by any means--but it just seems to early to call at this point. Even the Yanks get swept by the Devil Rays sometimes.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 07:59 PM
Maybe I shouldn't have said "panicking." I think that's where the confusion began. What I meant by it was that people are "jumping to conclusions" to call this a bad team so soon. I know it sucks to get swept by the Pirates, but there are too many good hitters on this team for the offense not to wake up eventually. The pitching will likely be inconsistent, but they've already shown more starting talent and bullpen depth than either of Krivsky's two previous squads.

I'm not saying they are a great team by any means--but it just seems to early to call at this point. Even the Yanks get swept by the Devil Rays sometimes.

I don't think it's at all out of place to suspect that this team will be bad after losing 90 last season and following that up by adding only Volquez as a major move in the offseason.

I'd say that's downright sensible. What I'm a little surprised by, more than anything, is how good the other teams in this division look so far, comparatively.

Caveat Emperor
04-13-2008, 08:00 PM
I'd consider sending Edwin to Louisville, but I think it's all going to be a moot point in a few weeks when Gonzalez gets back. His regular PT is over at that point, since I imagine Kepp will move to 3rd and Gonzo will resume his SS duties.

RedsManRick
04-13-2008, 08:01 PM
Move EE up in the order so he stops trying to kill the ball and drop Patterson. Otherwise, keep playing the starting 8 and let them hit their way out of the slump.

RedEye
04-13-2008, 08:06 PM
I don't think it's at all out of place to suspect that this team will be bad after losing 90 last season and following that up by adding only Volquez as a major move in the offseason.

I'd say that's downright sensible. What I'm a little surprised by, more than anything, is how good the other teams in this division look so far, comparatively.

Don't underestimate the importance of adding Cordero. He will solidify the back of the bullpen--indeed he already has--which has made everyone else's role that much clearer. Weathers and Burton are solid set-up men and Lincoln, if he can keep things up, is also a good addition.

Cueto, I think, is also a major off-season addition from within.

I never said your pessimism was out of place. I just don't agree with it quite yet.

RedEye
04-13-2008, 08:06 PM
Move EE up in the order so he stops trying to kill the ball and drop Patterson. Otherwise, keep playing the starting 8 and let them hit their way out of the slump.

Amen!

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:08 PM
I never said your pessimism was out of place. I just don't agree with it quite yet.

No one ever does. :)

Always Red
04-13-2008, 08:11 PM
I never said your pessimism was out of place.

One man's pessimism is another man's reality.

Pessimism is a good thing especially when evaluating either yourself or your team (in our example), and trying to improve either or both.

FCB serves a very needed function around here, and he can do it precisely because of his distance from here, away in Philly (the Cave??). Even the BRM had flaws. The 1990 Red's team certainly had flaws. This team has big flaws. FCB points those out.

That is nothing more than reality.

SMcGavin
04-13-2008, 08:15 PM
Call up Bray, send down Coffey.

Anything drastic doesn't make a lot of sense. Regardless of what some people have said on here the past few days you aren't going to bench/trade Dunn because of a cold ten game stretch. Edwin doesn't have Dunn's track record so you might consider sitting him, but who are you gonna play in his place? You could consider Kepp to 3rd and Gonzalez at SS when he comes back. But right now Edwin is safe. I guess the one small thing I would do is start Votto at first five days a week.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 08:26 PM
No moves until Ross and Gonzalez come off the DL. I don't want to strand any guys on waivers, and I need the time to accumulate some more information on my roster. Lets revisit this thread in a couple of weeks...

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:27 PM
No moves until Ross and Gonzalez come off the DL. I don't want to strand any guys on waivers, and I need the time to accumulate some more information on my roster. Lets revisit this thread in a couple of weeks...

What kinds of information?

OnBaseMachine
04-13-2008, 08:27 PM
I'd sit Encarnacion or Adam Dunn in favor of Ryan Freel, or sit both in favor of Freel and Hopper. If Gonzalez can return soon, I'd move Keppinger to 3B on a regular basis; if not, I would be working the phones if I were Wayne Krivsky trying to deal for a third baseman.

Bench Dunn in favor of Norris Hopper? That's just crazy IMO. The only thing Hopper can do is bunt. He can't hit, can't field, or can't steal. If it's possible, he may be a worse fielder than Dunn. He was brought in as a defensive replacement for Dunn one game last week and took a horrible route to a ball which resulted in a double. Same thing today. He took a bad route on a flyball in the 6th inning that fell in for a double and caused a huge inning.

Anyway, here are my moves:

Ship Coffey to Louisville, recall Bill Bray.

Ship out one of Freel/Hopper and bring up Jolbert Cabrera. (Sadly the only RH option we have until Rosales starts hitting)

I'd also shop Bronson Arroyo for a RH bat.

Inquire about Matt Kemp and what the asking price for him is.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:29 PM
I'd also shop Bronson Arroyo for a RH bat.

Inquire about Matt Kemp and what the asking price for him is.

I don't know if moves like these are even tenable at this point, but thinking like this is what the FO should be doing.

These moves are the opposite of reactionary and inert. They represent calculation. Which is important.

Highlifeman21
04-13-2008, 08:37 PM
Bench Dunn in favor of Norris Hopper? That's just crazy IMO. The only thing Hopper can do is bunt. He can't hit, can't field, or can't steal. If it's possible, he may be a worse fielder than Dunn. He was brought in as a defensive replacement for Dunn one game last week and took a horrible route to a ball which resulted in a double. Same thing today. He took a bad route on a flyball in the 6th inning that fell in for a double and caused a huge inning.

Anyway, here are my moves:

Ship Coffey to Louisville, recall Bill Bray.

Ship out one of Freel/Hopper and bring up Jolbert Cabrera. (Sadly the only RH option we have until Rosales starts hitting)

I'd also shop Bronson Arroyo for a RH bat.

Inquire about Matt Kemp and what the asking price for him is.

IMO, I think we've seen the best of Bronson Arroyo. He's been very hittable this year, and pedestrian at best. Unfortunately, I don't see him having much trade value, given his inability in 2008 to pitch in any positive capacity.

Matt Kemp is exactly the bat we should be targeting. For whatever reason Joe Torre isn't playing him in LA, and we could definitely find PAs for him in Cincinnati. I have a feeling the Dodgers would want plenty for him, even with him not starting. If plenty = Homer Bailey, then that's a price we might have to pay to obtain a bat of Kemp's caliber.

I think it was FCB that said it best with this team will only get better by trade. Bruce doesn't make us better to the point of making the playoffs, and he's the only remotely ready prospect, IMO. We just don't have options down on the farm that we can count on for 2008 to make us better. The only way we get better is via trade.

reds44
04-13-2008, 08:40 PM
IMO, I think we've seen the best of Bronson Arroyo. He's been very hittable this year, and pedestrian at best. Unfortunately, I don't see him having much trade value, given his inability in 2008 to pitch in any positive capacity.

Matt Kemp is exactly the bat we should be targeting. For whatever reason Joe Torre isn't playing him in LA, and we could definitely find PAs for him in Cincinnati. I have a feeling the Dodgers would want plenty for him, even with him not starting. If plenty = Homer Bailey, then that's a price we might have to pay to obtain a bat of Kemp's caliber.

I think it was FCB that said it best with this team will only get better by trade. Bruce doesn't make us better to the point of making the playoffs, and he's the only remotely ready prospect, IMO. We just don't have options down on the farm that we can count on for 2008 to make us better. The only way we get better is via trade.
You want to trade away both Bailey and Arroyo?

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:43 PM
You want to trade away both Bailey and Arroyo?

Keeping them's doing wonders. Is that McBeth in your avatar?

Highlifeman21
04-13-2008, 08:44 PM
You want to trade away both Bailey and Arroyo?

I think Bailey has more trade value than Arroyo, but Arroyo isn't pitching well, and while his peripherals were decent last year, his overall numbers suggested regression to the mean.

All I know is that the Reds need a legitimate LH SP. Matt Maloney could be that in 2010, and optimistically 2009. If anything, I'd shop Arroyo for a LH SP.

reds44
04-13-2008, 08:44 PM
Keeping them's doing wonders.
We should trade the entire team then. I'm not about to trade two starting pitchers for hitting. Not this early. When Dunn starts to hit, if we are still struggling to score then I will start considering it.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:45 PM
When Dunn starts to hit, if we are still struggling to score then I will start considering it.

That's reactionary. Should avoid this kind of thinking. You gamble on the fact that Arroyo's on the downslope (he is) and that Homer's stalled on the upslope (he is). Get some offense that's already on the plateau and is going to stay there awhile.

reds44
04-13-2008, 08:46 PM
That's reactionary. Should avoid this kind of thinking.
As opposed to the we just got swept by the Pirates, therefor Bailey and Arroyo aren't helping, therefor we should trade them kind of thinking.

OnBaseMachine
04-13-2008, 08:47 PM
IMO, I think we've seen the best of Bronson Arroyo. He's been very hittable this year, and pedestrian at best. Unfortunately, I don't see him having much trade value, given his inability in 2008 to pitch in any positive capacity.

Matt Kemp is exactly the bat we should be targeting. For whatever reason Joe Torre isn't playing him in LA, and we could definitely find PAs for him in Cincinnati. I have a feeling the Dodgers would want plenty for him, even with him not starting. If plenty = Homer Bailey, then that's a price we might have to pay to obtain a bat of Kemp's caliber.

I think it was FCB that said it best with this team will only get better by trade. Bruce doesn't make us better to the point of making the playoffs, and he's the only remotely ready prospect, IMO. We just don't have options down on the farm that we can count on for 2008 to make us better. The only way we get better is via trade.

I love Homer Bailey but I'd deal him for Matt Kemp any day of the week. Jay Bruce and Matt Kemp would form a deadly 3/4 punch for a long time. IIRC Walt Jocketty attempted a trade for Kemp early last season, so with him in the organization he may push for Kemp.

As for Bronson, I still think he has something left in the tank. He's got a solid 5 bb/14 k ratio in 15.2 innings. If not for that big error by Votto last night his line would have looked much better.

OnBaseMachine
04-13-2008, 08:48 PM
Keeping them's doing wonders. Is that McBeth in your avatar?

That's Edwin Jackson.

Highlifeman21
04-13-2008, 08:48 PM
We should trade the entire team then. I'm not about to trade two starting pitchers for hitting. Not this early. When Dunn starts to hit, if we are still struggling to score then I will start considering it.

I don't think we should trade both of them for hitting.

I think the Dodgers might actually entertain a Bailey for Kemp deal (with other pieces included, obviously, since the Dodgers would laugh themselves to death at the suggestion of Bailey for Kemp straight up), and that means we should actively and aggressively shop Arroyo for a LH SP.

Will either or both of those happen? Probably not. But I'm just hoping that we start to see some more Jocketty moves, and less Krivsky moves.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:49 PM
As opposed to the we just got swept by the Pirates, therefor Bailey and Arroyo aren't helping, therefor we should trade them kind of thinking.
I'm not sure you're addressing someone who holds that belief. I operate on simple principles: bad offense; fix it. Not: bad weekend; go back and fix it.

reds44
04-13-2008, 08:50 PM
I'm not sure you're addressing someone who holds that belief. I operate on simple principles: bad offense; fix it. Not: bad weekend; go back and fix it.
Bad offense based on 13 games when your "best hitter" isn't hitting at all. That's reactionary.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:51 PM
Bad offense based on 12 games when your "best hitter" isn't hitting at all. That's reactionary.

Maybe it would be if I thought the offense was going to be good to start the season. But I knew it was bad; as was the defense (and to a lesser extent the bullpen).

reds44
04-13-2008, 08:51 PM
Fun fact: thru the first 10 games in 2007 the Reds had the best bullpen in the majors. How did that turn out?

It's way too early to start dealing people based on early season struggles.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 08:51 PM
What kinds of information?

I want to learn more about what it is that I brough with me from Spring Training--the Billy Beane approach. I wait until end of May/beginning of June before I make any major changes; the team just needs to stay affloat until then. At that point, I can correctly asses my team's strengths/weaknesses, evaluate what is in my farm system, and make the necessary transactions, whether that is swapping out vets for young guys, or addressing weaknesses through trade...

reds44
04-13-2008, 08:51 PM
Maybe it would be if I thought the offense was going to be good to start the season. But I knew it was bad; as was the defense (and to a lesser extent the bullpen).
Good for you. We will see if you turn out to be right.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:52 PM
Fun fact: thru the first 10 games in 2007 the Reds had the best bullpen in the majors. How did that turn out?

It's way too early to start dealing people based on early season struggles.

Keep propping that straw man.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 08:52 PM
Inquire about Matt Kemp and what the asking price for him is.

I like the Matt Kemp idea. It's definitely early, but I think it's safe the say that Volquez and Cueto are at least going to be adequate members of this rotation for several years to come. However, I'm worried about this offense. Lets go get Kemp for Bailey+. That would follow the plan of playing for 2009, with a rotation of Harang, Cueto, Arroyo, Volquez, and Belisle/FA pickup such as Derek Lowe, you've got a solid rotation. It will be VERY important that the FO properly determine in July whether this team is in the playoff race. If they can, they need to move all of these old guys that are not going to be part of 2009 success (Griffey, Dunn, Weathers, AGon?, Affeldt, Fogg, Patterson, Hatteberg). We could do very well for ourselves at the deadline...

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:54 PM
I want to learn more about what it is that I brough with me from Spring Training--the Billy Beane approach. I wait until end of May/beginning of June before I make any major changes; the team just needs to stay affloat until then. At that point, I can correctly asses my team's strengths/weaknesses, evaluate what is in my farm system, and make the necessary transactions, whether that is swapping out vets for young guys, or addressing weaknesses through trade...

Except that Beane makes trades before June all the time. He's constantly tweaking--for him Spring Training doesn't really end till July.

reds44
04-13-2008, 08:55 PM
FCB, why did you think the offense was going to be bad this year before the season started?

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 08:56 PM
Except that Beane makes trades before June all the time. He's constantly tweaking--for him Spring Training doesn't really end till July.

"major changes"

thats what I meant by "gathering information"

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:56 PM
I like the Matt Kemp idea. It's definitely early, but I think it's safe the say that Volquez and Cueto are at least going to be adequate members of this rotation for several years to come. However, I'm worried about this offense. Lets go get Kemp for Bailey+. That would follow the plan of playing for 2009, with a rotation of Harang, Cueto, Arroyo, Volquez, and Belisle/FA pickup such as Derek Lowe, you've got a solid rotation. It will be VERY important that the FO properly determine in July whether this team is in the playoff race. If they can, they need to move all of these old guys that are not going to be part of 2009 success (Griffey, Dunn, Weathers, AGon?, Affeldt, Fogg, Patterson, Hatteberg). We could do very well for ourselves at the deadline...

That's why it's important to shop guys like Arroyo now so that you can bulk up on the offense you're going to lose when Dunn's gone. Getting a guy like Kemp isn't a luxury; it's nearly a necessity.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 08:57 PM
FCB, why did you think the offense was going to be bad this year before the season started?

Many posters said this offense wasn't going to be much more than average to start the season. They were just above-average last year while playing in GABP...

Highlifeman21
04-13-2008, 08:58 PM
Except that Beane makes trades before June all the time. He's constantly tweaking--for him Spring Training doesn't really end till July.

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that The Dusty still hasn't 100% finished evaluating the contents of his pantry?

He knows he wants to make a playoffs bound recipe, but has no clue what ingredients he has in his kitchen.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 08:58 PM
FCB, why did you think the offense was going to be bad this year before the season started?

It was just okay last year; Griffey's another year older; Phillips was producing over his head; Hamilton's gone; Votto's unproven; Hatteberg's a year older; I've never liked EdE's offense.

Too many question marks, not enough upside all through the lineup and bench.

reds44
04-13-2008, 08:58 PM
Many people said this offense wasn't going to be much more than average to start the season. They were just above-average last year while playing in GABP...
I don't think our offense will end up being anything more than "above average" this year either. It's not this bad though. I am simply curious as to why FCB thought the offense would struggle.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 09:01 PM
It was just okay last year; Griffey's another year older; Phillips was producing over his head; Hamilton's gone; Votto's unproven; Hatteberg's a year older; I've never liked EdE's offense.

Too many question marks, not enough upside all through the lineup and bench.

You can toss in 600 AB's of Keppinger/Hopper hitting .340 too...

reds44
04-13-2008, 09:07 PM
It was just okay last year; Griffey's another year older; Phillips was producing over his head; Hamilton's gone; Votto's unproven; Hatteberg's a year older; I've never liked EdE's offense.

Too many question marks, not enough upside all through the lineup and bench.
With the exception of Edwin, the Reds struggles on offense have nothing to do with the reasons you pointed out. Phillips has a .308/.361/.481 line. Patterson, the man who replaces Hamilton, is OPSing just south of 1.000. Votto has struggled a bit and isn't hitting for any power, but is still hitting over .300

The Reds struggles on offense can be pointed at three areas and only three areas.

1. Lack of hits with RISP
2. Adam Dunn
3. Edwin Encarnacion

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 09:09 PM
With the exception of Edwin, the Reds struggles on offense have nothing to do with the reasons you pointed out. Phillips has a .308/.361/.481 line. Patterson, the man who replaces Hamilton, is OPSing just south of 1.000. Votto has struggled a bit and isn't hitting for any power, but is still hitting over .300

The Reds struggles on offense can be pointed at three areas and only three areas.

1. Lack of hits with RISP
2. Adam Dunn
3. Edwin Encarnacion

I'm looking longer term than 13 games.

reds44
04-13-2008, 09:11 PM
I'm looking longer term than 13 games.
That is exactly what I have been saying in the entire thread. The offense, IMO, is nowhere near this bad. When people start hitting like they are supposed to, and most likely will, I'll address what needs to be done.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 09:13 PM
That is exactly what I have been saying in the entire thread. The offense, IMO, is nowhere near this bad. When people start hitting like they are supposed to, and most likely will, I'll address what needs to be done.

And when those guys start hitting like they are supposed to, Patterson will return to his career .298 OB% leading off and Phillips will fall back to Earth...

reds44
04-13-2008, 09:15 PM
And when those guys start hitting like they are supposed to, Patterson will return to his career .298 OB% leading off and Phillips will fall back to Earth...
What is falling back to earth for Phillips?

Going 30/30?

KronoRed
04-13-2008, 09:17 PM
Stand pat, the gunk down in Louisville is not going to be of help, other then Bruce.

EE should have until AGon returns.

WVRedsFan
04-13-2008, 09:18 PM
I don't think any moves are imminent. In fact, I don't see any until sometime in May if we continue like last weekend, which is a possibility. The biggest mistakes made were the failure to get a right-handed first baseman (and the faulty logic of thinking that exercising Hatt's option would make him a valuable trading chip), a viable catcher (Ross is not the answer since the best you'll get from him is .220--he was almost an automatic out last year), and a right-handed hitting outfielder.

Coffey may be sent down, but what good will that do? He's just never going to be anything other than what we've seen, sad to say.

If we go into Chicago and bomb, which we might, look for Dusty to get antsy and start demanding some help. Unfortunately, the Reds are faced with only a couple of players valued by the rest of the league--Jay Bruce, Adam Dunn, and Brandon Phillips. You trade away those guys and you lose most of your offense now (and in the future in the case of Bruce). Apparently you can't give Hatt, Castro, EE, Hopper, or Valentin away to anyone. Votto is another chip, but what could you get for a rookie first sacker who is unproven? Nothing to improve the offense.

I look for Wayne to go looking in dumpsters, which is his custom and hoping to find someone no one wants who will produce (Cantu, Conine, etc). If he's successful, he'll get a two year deal worth millions. If he's not, he'll be DFA'd.

C'est la vie.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 09:21 PM
What is falling back to earth for Phillips?

Going 30/30?

No, .275/.320/.450, which represents a regression of what he is doing so far...

RedlegJake
04-13-2008, 09:27 PM
Trade Arroyo. He still has good peripherals and he'd look even better if the defense was helping him. What he brings to the table in 2009 or 2010 isn't worth what he's gonna cost. Knee jerk extensions kill ya every time.If you can move him now you have to do it. In fact, you need to be really trying to get it done.

Target 2 young RH hitters, Delwyn Young, Matt Kemp or their ilk and put Bailey, Arroyo, Dunn, Hatte and any prospects not named Frazier on the table. This has to get done.

If Dunn can be dealt for a decent return fine. Probably not. Let him walk. Take the draft picks. Don't extend Junior. With Dunn, Junior and Arroyo you save 42 million or more in next year's payroll. Now the cash is there to look at the FA market for a CF/LF or maybe re-sign CP (depends on his year and the price/yrs). If you got a RH bat in a trade then you have Kemp/Young LF-CP cf - Bruce RF (just as an example). And still the payroll to find another arm or bat depending on who else got dealt away.

I love this pitching staff. The rest of team is, imo, dysfunctional. The lineup's unbalanced, the defense bad. The offense will be better, sure, but it's still going to be very vulnerable to southpaws and outside of Kepp lacks consistency. The bench has no pop and it's defense is as bad or worse than the regulars.

I am being reactionary now but I'd dump the whole bench for the the top 6 guys at Louisville. Seriously. And then I'd sit Junior and play Bruce.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 09:57 PM
For the money Arroyo is set to make, they could just about sign Derek Lowe in FA...

This team has a TON of average/replaceable players right now. You could subtract all of the catchers, Hatteberg, AGon, Castro, Freel, and Hopper and lose very little production. I'd probably cash in some of the prospects as well, since they have another top first round draft pick and potentially a Dunn compensation pick coming their way...

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 10:01 PM
For the money Arroyo is set to make, they could just about sign Derek Lowe in FA...

This team has a TON of average/replaceable players right now. You could subtract all of the catchers, Hatteberg, AGon, Castro, Freel, and Hopper and lose very little production. I'd probably cash in some of the prospects as well, since they have another top first round draft pick and potentially a Dunn compensation pick coming their way...

I imagine Lowe and Arroyo would put up the same numbers in a neutral park. I'm not all that interested in Lowe. A few years ago, yeah, but not anymore. Why trade away a declining junkballer to pick up another one in FA?

Will M
04-13-2008, 10:23 PM
Trade Arroyo based on 3 starts???
He is a #3 starter who will give us 200 innings. He is NOT the problem so far.
Harang - Arroyo - Cueto - Volquez - Belisle - Homer looks real good.

EE sucks really bad but he is going to stay on the roster for now. If he is still stinky when Gonzolez gets back Kep may play 3B and EE may be in AAA.
Heck, I am beginning to be convinced he will never be able to play 3B.

I would rather have Hairston or Cabrera than Castro.

KoryMac5
04-13-2008, 10:23 PM
The first move I would make is to end this awful left handed platoon of Hatte and Votto at first. The FO really has done a bad job of handling this situation thus giving Baker a situation that is no win. I would shop Arroyo at the deadline if not before. I think he has reached his peak value with the Reds, too often (Larkin) we have held on to players only to see their value diminish. Trade for a catcher, everyone on this board will agree that this position is a glaring need on this club. When AGon returns put Kepp back in his supersub role spelling people at 1st, 2nd, SS, and 3rd. Call Bray up and send Coffey down to get some work. It is a long list but it really speaks to all that is wrong with this team.

Falls City Beer
04-13-2008, 10:27 PM
Incidentally, a very good thread. One that was initially hounded by the "Calm Down" crowd has really turned into an interesting set of suggestions. Really, one of the better threads on here in quite a while.

Kc61
04-13-2008, 10:56 PM
Is it just me, or does anyone else get the impression that The Dusty still hasn't 100% finished evaluating the contents of his pantry?

He knows he wants to make a playoffs bound recipe, but has no clue what ingredients he has in his kitchen.


I basically agree that Dusty will cause changes to be made. In fact, Jocketty is getting his first look up close, day to day, at the Reds. He too will cause changes.

i wouldn't do anything immediately, except possibly make a couple of bench deals opening the door for a righty hitter (I'd give Cabrera a chance from AAA), eliminating the Hatte/Votto redundancy (I'd have Votto play everyday and look to deal Hatte), replacing Castro with Hairston (until Gonzo gets back).

But longer term the Reds have to re-consider the entire structure of the offense which continues to be long balls by Dunn and Griffey, a little righty support from Phillips, and very little else.

Will M
04-13-2008, 11:04 PM
But longer term the Reds have to re-consider the entire structure of the offense which continues to be long balls by Dunn and Griffey, a little righty support from Phillips, and very little else.

Funny. I was thinking the same thing. The old Braves were pitching and home runs. Come playoff time they faced better starters and their offense struggled because they couldn't play small ball.

The Reds ( so far ) are pitching, weak defense & homers.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 11:05 PM
Why trade away a declining junkballer to pick up another one in FA?

The return they receive for Arroyo...

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 11:08 PM
When AGon returns put Kepp back in his supersub role spelling people at 1st, 2nd, SS, and 3rd.

I have a problem with this. Jeff Keppinger is a hell of a hitter. I mean really good. Give him a spot in the lineup and let him play everyday.

VR
04-13-2008, 11:22 PM
I have a problem with this. Jeff Keppinger is a hell of a hitter. I mean really good. Give him a spot in the lineup and let him play everyday.

I think as close as you get to that right now is the righty portion of a platoon w/ Votto, and spot starting for Gonzo, EE, Phillips and even Dunn as Kory5 mentioned.
That should be good for 80% of the games....450-500 ab's?

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 11:27 PM
I think as close as you get to that right now is the righty portion of a platoon w/ Votto, and spot starting for Gonzo, EE, Phillips and even Dunn as Kory5 mentioned.
That should be good for 80% of the games....450-500 ab's?

Gimme SS against RH pitchers and 1B against LH pitchers for 99% of the games and 600 AB's...

reds44
04-13-2008, 11:28 PM
Gimme SS against RH pitchers and 1B against LH pitchers for 99% of the games and 600 AB's...
I don't mind moving him around if Edwin is in one of his uber slumps, or Dunn needs a day off, or Phillips needs a day off, but he needs t be in the lineup everyday. No doubt.

*BaseClogger*
04-13-2008, 11:32 PM
I don't mind moving him around if Edwin is in one of his uber slumps, or Dunn needs a day off, or Phillips needs a day off, but he needs t be in the lineup everyday. No doubt.

Sure, although I don't want to jerk him around too much. He can't do that forever, and I think this guy is good enough to play in the majors everyday. I don't want the Reds to think he is replacable down the road because he never settles into one position (ala Ryan Freel). Don't mistake me for thinking this guy is as good as Ryan Freel--he is much better...

Jpup
04-13-2008, 11:37 PM
I would trade Ryan Freel or Norris Hopper to the Phillies for something that might become useful. Shane Victorino is heading to the DL.

Kc61
04-13-2008, 11:55 PM
Gimme SS against RH pitchers and 1B against LH pitchers for 99% of the games and 600 AB's...

This will not happen. When Gonzo returns he will be the shortstop most days against all kinds of pitching. He is a starting shortstop in this league and the Reds will not relegate him to the bench to open up a spot for Kepp.

Keppinger will either be a bench player/platoon first baseman or he will play third base. Those are the options. If EE shows something, then Kepp will be a super sub. If EE continues his swoon, then Keppinger will be the Reds third baseman.

WVRedsFan
04-14-2008, 12:02 AM
This will not happen. When Gonzo returns he will be the shortstop most days against all kinds of pitching. He is a starting shortstop in this league and the Reds will not relegate him to the bench to open up a spot for Kepp.

Keppinger will either be a bench player/platoon first baseman or he will play third base. Those are the options. If EE shows something, then Kepp will be a super sub. If EE continues his swoon, then Keppinger will be the Reds third baseman.

I think this is true, but does anyone know when Gonzalez is coming back? Has he even done a rehab stint yet??

At this point, I'd love to see Gonzo and Keppinger on the left side of the infield. I've really soured on Encarnacion. So much potential, but a big disappointment.

pedro
04-14-2008, 12:13 AM
I'm going to do "The Hustle"

Spring~Fields
04-14-2008, 01:03 AM
Me, I send down Hopper and release Castro and bring up Hairston and Cabrera.

I phase out the platoon at first and just give Votto the bulk of playing time.
If we need a right handed bat at first I use Keppinger and Encarcion there.

I think that Dusty will discover after some additional time what many of you have pointed out regarding his offense and will make some changes and ask for additional changes from the twin general managers Krivsky and Jockerty. They have some tough opponents for awhile and if they continue to have a tough time of it of course it will force some movement.

Though they are getting some strong indicators, right now is too soon for them to fully determine what they have. After May 11 they should know a lot more about where they are.

This year will be about building up the pitching/defense.
If the pitchers like Lehr, Bailey, Belisle and others continue to come along in addition to the current pitching I can see where some of you could be correct about trading some of the pitching to acquire some of the more obvious offensive pieces that are needed, and I think that Krivsky and Jockerty would.

I donít think that Jockerty or Krivsky will be for adding payroll to retain Dunn or Griffey, that they will look elsewhere to replace them because somehow I donít think they fit the Cardinals or Twins models that those two are accustomed to.

So much for my speculations.

Chip R
04-14-2008, 01:10 AM
Incidentally, a very good thread. One that was initially hounded by the "Calm Down" crowd has really turned into an interesting set of suggestions. Really, one of the better threads on here in quite a while.


I agree. It's good for people to vent like this. People can think this is like fantasy baseball where you can just drop a guy and pick another guy up at the drop of the hat and there are no consequences or repurcussions for doing that. Bring up a guy from the minors who is hot and he sits on the bench where maybe he can be that right-handed pinch hitter we've all been looking for. But perhaps that guy was hot in AAA cause he was playing every day. And it goes without saying that you're facing a different calibar of a picher when you get called up. Sure you can trade a guy like Arroyo but what happens if the kids falter like Cueto did today and then you're back to Aaron Harang being your only reliable starter. And God forbid he lands on the DL for a significant amount of time. Then you're back to losing games 12-8 and 10-9. But venting is fun because it gives us an outlet to express our frustrations.

WVRedsFan
04-14-2008, 02:10 AM
I agree. It's good for people to vent like this. People can think this is like fantasy baseball where you can just drop a guy and pick another guy up at the drop of the hat and there are no consequences or repurcussions for doing that. Bring up a guy from the minors who is hot and he sits on the bench where maybe he can be that right-handed pinch hitter we've all been looking for. But perhaps that guy was hot in AAA cause he was playing every day. And it goes without saying that you're facing a different calibar of a picher when you get called up. Sure you can trade a guy like Arroyo but what happens if the kids falter like Cueto did today and then you're back to Aaron Harang being your only reliable starter. And God forbid he lands on the DL for a significant amount of time. Then you're back to losing games 12-8 and 10-9. But venting is fun because it gives us an outlet to express our frustrations.

Call me crazy, but i'd rather score runs than not. Silly me. I don't ever want to lose, but I absolutely despise watching a team who can't score. A pitcher's battle is my definition of boring baseball and I don't think I am alone. Defense is great for football (and I even hate that), but I'd rather win 10-9 than lose 2-1. Yeah, I'm nuts, but I'm a lovable nuts.

cincyinco
04-14-2008, 02:59 AM
Personally if rather win with good pitching, defense, AND good offense! Its a lot of fun watching your favorite team murder the oppositions pitching and absolutely dominate their line up. But that's just me.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 07:51 AM
I agree. It's good for people to vent like this. People can think this is like fantasy baseball where you can just drop a guy and pick another guy up at the drop of the hat and there are no consequences or repurcussions for doing that. Bring up a guy from the minors who is hot and he sits on the bench where maybe he can be that right-handed pinch hitter we've all been looking for. But perhaps that guy was hot in AAA cause he was playing every day. And it goes without saying that you're facing a different calibar of a picher when you get called up. Sure you can trade a guy like Arroyo but what happens if the kids falter like Cueto did today and then you're back to Aaron Harang being your only reliable starter. And God forbid he lands on the DL for a significant amount of time. Then you're back to losing games 12-8 and 10-9. But venting is fun because it gives us an outlet to express our frustrations.

I actually think there are several good suggestions in here. Sure, I'm sure some of it is a product of frustration, but I really think a lot of the ideas come from forethought and planning, like OBM's, Baseclogger's, and others, not just kneejerk reactions. Most of the concerns being addressed in this thread have been concerns since before a single pitch was thrown this season.

RedlegJake
04-14-2008, 09:41 AM
RedsZone and other boards like it provide a needed outlet for fans. Rant, vent, revel, rejoice...make suggestions and interact with other fans.

Being a fan is the hardest thing in sports. No, it isn't tough physically - unless you are prone to kicking walls and throwing things in fits of frustration. It's hard because you get intensely involved in something you have absolutely no control over. You can't make the changes you feel are needed. You can't cut a player or trade for one or pick even one draftee. No one who makes the decisions is listening when your brilliant plan for making the team competitive is posted.

Being a fan is living with a daily roller coaster of emotion and short of not following the team anymore, there isn't a thing you can do but go along for the ride...kicking, screaming and wailing when your team isn't getting it done - the sad thing is - you KNOW how to fix them, don't you;)

Chip R
04-14-2008, 09:46 AM
What I'd like to know is if we're still better than the Diamondbacks (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66815).

coachw513
04-14-2008, 09:47 AM
I'm gonna DFA Cueto after his start yesterday...same with Dunn, Griffey and Encarnacion...will waive the entire bullpen, fire Dusty and buy every newspaper that covers the Reds, fire their beat writers and put only "level headed" RZ members in their place, of course to ask those "tough questions"...:D

I guess what I'd do is take a deep breath and relax (that's not to say we aren't all allowed to be discouraged and frustrated)...folks, this is 7 years of angst that wriggled it's way out of PNC Park this weekend...I'm sorry, but I'm more than content to expect this club to have growing pains and not to be the NL's team to beat this season...but I also anticipate that we are continuing to improve our talent base and our overall play as a franchise...

Gonzalez and Ross, for all their warts, will make a tremendous difference in our ability to alter lineups against good LH starters...I refuse to believe the offensive malaise is a true indicator of our offense (though, yes it is more middle-of-pack than some would be led to believe) and I guess if I were Dusty I would be examining some lineup shuffling simply to try and stir the pot a bit...I'd move EE down in the lineup but he'd stay in there every day right now...I'd move Griffey down in the lineup against LH and I'd never think that Castro adds anything to an offense...I'd play Votto every day, moving him up in the lineup...

My belief is that Dunn and Griffey both hit enough to compensate for their lack of defense over the course of a season...when they aren't slumping (does anyone expect their lack of production to be like this all year???) there aren't many guys I'd rather see in big situations than either of them...really, is Bruce or some yet-to-be-named right-handed batter really going to produce at the plate better than Griffey or Dunn, even against LH pitching??

But pitching wins...and for the first time in my recent Reds memory, every night out I believe our starting pitching and the end-of-game pitching is good enough to win (yes, I am okay with Fogg/Belisle/dare I say a July-Bailey 5th starter matchup against any other 5th starter type)...

The Yankees, Red Sox et al have made a living out of the "get me 7", go to the great setup guy (with a good LOOGY somewhere) and a consistent closer...what's not encouraging about Harang, Volquez, Arroyo, Cueto and #5, with Burton, Weathers and Cordero...

I HATE rooting for a bad team...it kills me and makes my wife laugh at the futility of it all...but the reality is this is the best personnel the Reds have had in this decade, particularly in the most integral area of starting pitching...Dusty's growing on me a bit and I believe a legitimate direction of development is being exhibited in the FO...so I think I'll handle a 3 game sweep without making sweeping changes, and just be excited about getting to play the Cubs starting tomorrow...

flyer85
04-14-2008, 09:49 AM
Reds need a RH power bat off the bench ... the Freel/Hopper redundancy makes no sense at all.

Castro needs to be gone but I can't imagine him lasting past the return of Gonzo.

I would bring up Bray and shuttle Coffey to Louisville.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 10:20 AM
It's pretty obvious that this team is not only worse than the D-Backs, but about three tiers below them. The defense (as advertised) is atrocious, the starting pitching, while better, is too young and too old, the offense is actually worse than even old pessimist me imagined, and the pen is a handful of five-inning starts away from meltdown.

What has surprised me exceedingly is how good Milwaukee and St. Louis look. I thought they'd be about as bad as the Reds. I actually think the Reds will be off the map much earlier than normal this season.

*BaseClogger*
04-14-2008, 10:23 AM
What has surprised me exceedingly is how good Milwaukee and St. Louis look. I thought they'd be about as bad as the Reds. I actually think the Reds will be off the map much earlier than normal this season.

You expect the Cards to keep this up?

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 10:25 AM
You expect the Cards to keep this up?

Why not?

*BaseClogger*
04-14-2008, 10:28 AM
Why not?

PECOTA ;)

flyer85
04-14-2008, 10:30 AM
Why not?because their starting pitching sucks ... I for one do not believe that Lohse, Wellmeyer, Thompson, Looper, Piniero have suddenly morphed into good pitchers.

RedlegJake
04-14-2008, 10:31 AM
Expecting the Cards to remain this good is as unrealistic as expecting the Reds to remain this bad.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 10:35 AM
because their starting pitching sucks ... I for one do not believe that Lohse, Wellmeyer, Thompson, Looper, Piniero have suddenly morphed into good pitchers.

Lohse, despite my railing against the guy when he was here, has actually performed quite well since coming to the NL. He's a good NL pitcher. Looper was respectable last year. Wainwright's very good. Carpenter will be back in July. It's not a great rotation, no. But it could hold down the fort till Carpenter returns. The Cards also still have the second-best defense in the NL Central. It's certainly looking like neither Duncan nor Ankiel is a fluke.

Of course no one wants to hear it--that a team in the process of "tearing down" could still be better than the "emerging" Reds, but that's exactly what it looks like.

westofyou
04-14-2008, 10:35 AM
Personally if rather win with good pitching, defense, AND good offense! Its a lot of fun watching your favorite team murder the oppositions pitching and absolutely dominate their line up. But that's just me.

Nope... it's anyone who doesn't buy that baseball is only played one way.

flyer85
04-14-2008, 10:38 AM
Waignwright is good ... the rest of the guys are crap.

Looper and his 4.94 ERA(2007) in a nice pitchers park shows where he is at. Lohse is a nice 5th starter, nothing more. Carpenter is unlikely to be anything close to the Carpenter everyone remembers until 2009 at the earliest.

The Cards pitching is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 10:41 AM
Waignwright is good ... the rest of the guys are crap.

Looper and his 4.94 ERA(2007) in a nice pitchers park shows where he is at. Lohse is a nice 5th starter, nothing more. Carpenter is unlikely to be anything close to the Carpenter everyone remembers until 2009 at the earliest.

The Cards pitching is nothing more than smoke and mirrors.

Okay.

RedRoser
04-14-2008, 10:47 AM
Let me expand my earlier moves.
I agree that Coffey should go down or be released and Bray brought up; that Castro should go and Hairston or Bruce come up; that (long range) we need to keep either Griffey or Dunn, but not both in the OF and replace one of them with Bruce/Hopper/or Freel. I'm also in favor of Valentin being traded/released or whatever when Ross returns.
When Gonzalez returns, I'd move Keppinger to third and sit EE or send him down. I've had about all I wanna see of him at 3B or in this lineup period. He is another Willie Greene, or worse, IMO. And, I'd sit Dunn for a spell. Freel at least is hitting better and gives you better defensive play. Keep giving Votto the majority of time at 1B.

lollipopcurve
04-14-2008, 10:56 AM
Lohse, despite my railing against the guy when he was here, has actually performed quite well since coming to the NL. He's a good NL pitcher.

Oh, now you say it.......... It was clear last year, wasn't it?

bucksfan2
04-14-2008, 10:56 AM
This entire offseason we have heard you win by pitching and defense. There were numerous people on this board who would have traded everything for pitching. Now a few weeks into the season the reds problem isn't pitching, rather hitting. I wonder if through the first 10-15 games or so if the reds had Hamilton if they would have any more wins?

Here is what I would do.

Send Coffey down and call up Bray. How much longer will the reds be fooled by Coffey's stuff. Until he learns how to use his stuff he will continue to get shelled. It seems like he always starts the season off hot (spring training and then a few weeks in April) but gets shelled after that.

DFA Castro. Enough. He doesn't belong on a major league team.

Hopper = Freel. One must go. Hopper I think can go back down to AAA. Hopper's only value so far this season has been that of a bunter. Giving him a spot on the major league roster with Freel is a waste of a roster spot.

Votto >>>> Hatty. Do something with Hatty. Votto is a much better hitter now and needs to play every day. In reality the only thing Hatty is doing right now is taking atbats away from better, more deserving players.

I move Dunn up in the lineup to #2. He is getting on base and isn't seing much to hit. His OBP is being wasted because Edwin isn't hitting. OBP is great but if you are stranding the runners at the rate the reds are walks are just "clogging the bases".

My everyday lineup looks like this. I don't care if you are facing a RHP or LHP.
1. Patterson - lets not fight it. He is going to be here regardless.
2. Dunn - Get on base, needs more protection.
3. Keppinger - Guy can hit plain and simple. He isn't going to have a huge slugging number but he does put the ball in play.
4. Jr - Actually is swinging the bat pretty well.
5. Phillips - He is hitting the ball pretty well
6. Votto - Probably should/will be moved up as he hits more
7. Edwin - Needs to start to hit.
8. Bako/Ross - Not expecting too much.

5.

flyer85
04-14-2008, 11:00 AM
my order would be

Keppinger, Dunn, Phillips, Jr, Votto, EE, CP, Catcher

klw
04-14-2008, 11:14 AM
My everyday lineup looks like this. I don't care if you are facing a RHP or LHP.
1. Patterson - lets not fight it. He is going to be here regardless.
2. Dunn - Get on base, needs more protection.
3. Keppinger - Guy can hit plain and simple. He isn't going to have a huge slugging number but he does put the ball in play.
4. Jr - Actually is swinging the bat pretty well.
5. Phillips - He is hitting the ball pretty well
6. Votto - Probably should/will be moved up as he hits more
7. Edwin - Needs to start to hit.
8. Bako/Ross - Not expecting too much.

5.

I think this looks pretty good.

Spring~Fields
04-14-2008, 11:14 AM
my order would be

Keppinger, Dunn, Phillips, Jr, Votto, EE, CP, Catcher


Keppinger, Phillips, Encarcion, Griffey, Dunn, Votto, Patterson, Catcher.

Front load the right handed bats.
Take advantage of Keppingers hitting.
Rein in Phillips to better bat control and away from being a free swinger, utilize his speed to get on base.
Give Encarcion protection, let him see better pitches with Griffey behind him while taking advantage of Encarcions ability to drive in runs. If he makes outs, you still have Griffey coming up.
Let Griffey protect the hitters in front of him while Dunn and Votto protect Griffey.
Take advantage of Dunn's walks with Votto and Patterson behind him to get Dunn better pitches and to drive Dunn in when he walks.
Votto regular playing time, develop him into whatever he can be.
Patterson to protect Votto
Catcher, whoever calls the best game and really helps the pitchers game.

TRF
04-14-2008, 11:15 AM
I'd send Coffey to Louisville, bring up Belisle and move Fogg to the pen. If he's not happy with that, he's coming off a decent outing, so start the shopping. I shop Freel, Hopper, Patterson and Fogg to EVERYONE. I doubt the Dodgers are really stupid enough to give up Kemp, but I go after him hard. I'd trade Bailey for Kemp straight up, only because the Reds look solid at young SP with Cueto/Volquez, and Maloney, Thompson and a few others in the minors.

I try to take the game out of EE's head. the talent is there, but his head isn't right now. Without telling him, I'd say he has about 2 weeks before Kepp takes his job. But EE is very young, and though I hate to say it, likely has a decent amount of trade value.

But the season is 12 games old. A lot of guys in both leagues are under and over performing at this point.

I'd still recall Belisle though. Fogg's last start was a mirage.

flyer85
04-14-2008, 11:23 AM
Front load the right handed bats.
it you want to front load something it has to be the OBPs.

OnBaseMachine
04-14-2008, 11:41 AM
I keep fantasizing about a Jay Bruce/Matt Kemp three/four punch for the next decade or so. That would be a killer lineup with those two guys hitting back to back. Come on Wayne, make it happen.

I can't keep my mind off that proposed Griffey to the White Sox for a young CF prospect named Chris Young and another prospect. Imagine if freaking Carl Lindner hadn't shot that deal down? This organization would be sitting pretty right now with Dunn in left, Young in center, and Bruce in right. That trade would have solved most of our problems: lack of RH power bat and outfield defense.

Benihana
04-14-2008, 11:46 AM
Call up Hairston Jr, DFA Castro
Call up Bray, send down Coffey

I'd probably flip Votto and Edwin in lineup too.

I like that.

I'd also replace Fogg with Belisle as soon as Belisle is ready to go. Send down Coffey, put Weathers on the DL (so they can hopefully figure out what is "wrong" with him other than his age,) and add Bray and Fogg to the pen. Much better.

Benihana
04-14-2008, 11:49 AM
I keep fantasizing about a Jay Bruce/Matt Kemp three/four punch for the next decade or so. That would be a killer lineup with those two guys hitting back to back. Come on Wayne, make it happen.

I can't keep my mind off that proposed Griffey to the White Sox for a young CF prospect named Chris Young and another prospect. Imagine if freaking Carl Lindner hadn't shot that deal down? This organization would be sitting pretty right now with Dunn in left, Young in center, and Bruce in right. That trade would have solved most of our problems: lack of RH power bat and outfield defense.

Except that that wasn't the proposed deal. The deal was for the other White Sox centerfield prospect- Brian Anderson. The funny thing is that I still kinda like Anderson. I'd see if we could still get him for Freel and Todd Coffey.

He would be another no risk high upside guy that could take over in CF next year if Patterson gets a big money deal elsewhere, provided Jay Bruce takes over for Jr. in RF.

Highlifeman21
04-14-2008, 11:50 AM
I'm going to do "The Hustle"

Are you going to walk down the corridor of people by yourself, and if so, what moves do you have at the end of the corridor?

OnBaseMachine
04-14-2008, 11:51 AM
Except that that wasn't the proposed deal. The deal was for the other White Sox centerfield prospect- Brian Anderson. The funny thing is that I still kinda like Anderson. I'd see if we could still get him for Freel and Todd Coffey.

He would be another no risk high upside guy that could take over in CF next year if Patterson gets a big money deal elsewhere, provided Jay Bruce takes over for Jr. in RF.

No, the deal was for Chris Young and Casey Rogowski.

REDREAD
04-14-2008, 11:53 AM
I think the Reds need to realize that this is a rebuilding year and treat it as such.

Part of that means leaving EdE and Coffey up here all season and letting them sink or swim. I'm not as down on Coffey as some people are. He's going to give up HR occasonally (as does Ceuto). That's just the way they are. Doesn't mean they aren't worth keeping. Actually, I toss Burton also into the pile of "evaluation mode" this year.

EdE is extremely puzzling. In hindsight, it looks like the Reds held on to him far too long and should've dealt him while he was hot. Not blaming Wayne for this, as I wanted to keep EdE also. But now, the Reds really have little choice but to try to let EdE play his way out of it. I don't think burning an option by sending him to Louisville is that good of an idea. It doesn't help us longterm. I don't know why EdE goes through these periods of spacing out, but we need to figure out if he can work his way out of it or not. If he can't, unfortunately the Reds will be stuck with another devalued player. But that's better than having an unknown commodity going into arbitration.

We are pretty much stuck with Arroyo, thanks to that extension Wayne gave him.
I forget the details, but isn't Arroyo owed something like 16-20 million over 2009-2010?
The Reds might be able to give him away, but again, that does not help the team longterm at all. We need to just hold him and hope he rebounds.

I agree with Wayne that Bruce needs a full season at AAA. Also, let Jr play out his last season in dignity. Sure, his defense hurts us, but IMO, he's not blocking Bruce and if you assume Bruce would benefit from a year at AAA, then there's no better alternative on the roster for RF.

At some point in the season, the Reds should probably bring up Maj and Bray again and make the final determination on them (whether they are worth bringing back next year). I'm guessing they will be out of options next year, but I am not positive. Maybe we can decide on Maj without him coming back up, but I have the feeling Wayne still has hope for Maj.

So, I guess I could've made this post a lot shorter by saying the Reds need to evaluate the marginal talent this year and decide who is a keeper for next year. That means running out young guys like Coffey, Burton, and Bray.

OnBaseMachine
04-14-2008, 11:53 AM
Griffey was targeted for a trade by the White Sox before the July 31 trading deadline. The White Sox offered the Reds three prospects, including double-A outfielder Chris Young, the Chicago Tribune reported.

Griffey can reject any trade under the "10-5" rule, because he has played 10 years in the major leagues and the past five with the Reds.

USA Today reported recently that Griffey was dealt, but that Reds CEO Carl Lindner killed the trade.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/8829546/

bucksfan2
04-14-2008, 11:54 AM
Keppinger, Phillips, Encarcion, Griffey, Dunn, Votto, Patterson, Catcher.

Front load the right handed bats.
Take advantage of Keppingers hitting.
Rein in Phillips to better bat control and away from being a free swinger, utilize his speed to get on base.
Give Encarcion protection, let him see better pitches with Griffey behind him while taking advantage of Encarcions ability to drive in runs. If he makes outs, you still have Griffey coming up.
Let Griffey protect the hitters in front of him while Dunn and Votto protect Griffey.
Take advantage of Dunn's walks with Votto and Patterson behind him to get Dunn better pitches and to drive Dunn in when he walks.
Votto regular playing time, develop him into whatever he can be.
Patterson to protect Votto
Catcher, whoever calls the best game and really helps the pitchers game.

Here is my problem with this lineup. The Reds problem right now isn't getting base rather driving in runs. Dunn and Edwin are both getting on base at a higher clip yet not driving in runs. The only guy on the team that is consistantly putting the ball in play is Keppinger. I drop him into the 3 slot because he is putting the ball in play. Votto also looks like he is starting to get it so I may move him up into a RBI slot.

Spring~Fields
04-14-2008, 11:55 AM
it you want to front load something it has to be the OBPs.

You are correct yet,


Current OBP
Keppinger .386
Phillips .368
Encarcion .347
Griffey .389
Dunn .380
Votto .308
Patterson .304
Bako .457

I want to see if we can bring Encarcion out of his funk or long slumps and increase his OBP.

I want to take advantage of Dunnís walks and OBP during the second inning by making him the leadoff or number two batter in that inning.

I want to try to compel Phillips to be a more disciplined hitter increasing his.

Against left handed pitchers the loading the front end with right handerís could produce enough runs to pick up some wins against them assuming the Reds starting pitching holds up in the low scoring games. Keppinger, Phillips and Encarcion could combine to carry a team in lower scoring affairs.

I want to take away or reduce the scoring dependency on Dunn and Griffey and shift the burden to the other six batters. I want to spread out the struggling outs to reduce the LOB or leaving runners in scoring position on base while increasing the potential of the lower half of the order so that the aggregate of the offense is not so dependent on the first four batters.

flyer85
04-14-2008, 11:59 AM
EdE is extremely puzzling. In hindsight, it looks like the Reds held on to him far too long and should've dealt him while he was hot. It's 2 weeks into the season(Ortiz has started 3-43), the problem with EE is not his bat. The issue is his defense. His bat plays well at 3b, it will not play well at 1b or in LF. Braun hits so well his bat plays anywhere, with EE he has to be able to handle 3b to have value.

I think EEs days are numbered as the starting 3b(kepp will move to 3rd when Gonzo is healthy).

The main issue the Reds have is due to the roster construction they are highly susceptible to starting LHP. They really have nothing in AAA to remedy the problem.

WK really needs to decide if he is going to play the hand or fold. Doing nothing will be a de facto fold.

REDREAD
04-14-2008, 12:14 PM
It's 2 weeks into the season(Ortiz has started 3-43), the problem with EE is not his bat. The issue is his defense. His bat plays well at 3b, it will not play well at 1b or in LF. Braun hits so well his bat plays anywhere, with EE he has to be able to handle 3b to have value.

I think EEs days are numbered as the starting 3b(kepp will move to 3rd when Gonzo is healthy).

The main issue the Reds have is due to the roster construction they are highly susceptible to starting LHP. They really have nothing in AAA to remedy the problem.

WK really needs to decide if he is going to play the hand or fold. Doing nothing will be a de facto fold.

I guess I should've said that EdE is hot and cold with both his offense and defense. Often both are hold/cold at the same time.

Rather than send him to AAA, I think the Reds should just let him play through it this year. See if some confidence from the manager settles him down. Maybe he'll play better without the constant fear of being optioned. Or maybe not.. We need to find out. EdE is so frustrating because he obviously has the talent. So, I play him every day this season, no matter how painful it gets. See if he can play up to his potential. I'm guessing his trade value has plummeted very low now. It can only go up.. Playing him at AAA won't help, IMO.

I do agree with you that EdE's bat will come around. That's why I'm in favor of running him out there every day. We might get a short term burst by benching EdE in favor of Keppinger when Gonzo comes back, but that does not help us longterm. We need to give EdE a chance to claim the 3b job for good or to at least improve his trading stock.. Right now, it's awful..


I also agree that Wayne poorly designed this offense and defense (outside of Patterson). Since he's arrived, Wayne has undervalued position players.
While the rotation looks good this year, other facets of this team will probably doom them to another sub-500 finish.

I really hope Wayne gets canned this year. I imagine Jocketty (or someone like him) could do a better job filling out this team.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 12:23 PM
Guys who are certainly going to improve: Dunn

Guys who are likely to improve, though not by a lot: EdE, Hatteberg

Guys who are a total mystery: Votto

Guys who are living up to expectations: Griffey, Phillips, Kepp (though probably a bit over his head), Patterson, Freel, Hopper, Valentin

Guys who are hitting way over their heads: Bako

In my opinion that's a lot of stasis. Not likely that you'll see a sea change in this offense; except for Dunn, what you see is mostly what you'll get. Probably a slight uptick overall. That puts the Reds squarely in the lower half of the division offensively, and by extension, the league and all MLB.

flyer85
04-14-2008, 12:28 PM
Reds were average offensively last year and likely to be middling again this year. Although even to get to that level I think Bruce will have to get a significant number of ABs.

This team has too many holes and too poorly constructed of a roster to be a contender.

Kc61
04-14-2008, 12:31 PM
Guys who are certainly going to improve: Dunn

Guys who are likely to improve, though not by a lot: EdE, Hatteberg

Guys who are a total mystery: Votto

Guys who are living up to expectations: Griffey, Phillips, Kepp (though probably a bit over his head), Patterson, Freel, Hopper, Valentin

Guys who are hitting way over their heads: Bako

In my opinion that's a lot of stasis. Not likely that you'll see a sea change in this offense; except for Dunn, what you see is mostly what you'll get. Probably a slight uptick overall. That puts the Reds squarely in the lower half of the division offensively, and by extension, the league and all MLB.

Don't disagree at all.

The Reds offense is built around Dunn and Griffey, long balls and walks. For the last few years it has been a relatively low BA offense. And it is way overloaded from the left side. There are two lefty first basemen, three starting lefty outfielders, and two lefty catchers due to injury.

The result is a feast or famine offense and a team that can't hit left handers.

Even when guys get going, this is a limited offense. They won't beat lefties. They won't score runs in cavernous ballparks requiring consistent and timely hitting.

The pitching is improved, it is time now for the offense to be revamped. Jocketty, Krivsky and Baker hopefully see this.

Benihana
04-14-2008, 02:12 PM
I hope that Edwin will improve by more than a little bit. If he doesn't, the offense is in serious trouble.

OnBaseMachine
04-14-2008, 02:17 PM
Apparently Hal McCoy said a few days ago that Dusty Baker wants to call up Jay Bruce. I don't want him up here unless he's going to start every day but I wouldn't be surprised if he's brought up here within the next month.

Benihana
04-14-2008, 02:33 PM
Griffey was targeted for a trade by the White Sox before the July 31 trading deadline. The White Sox offered the Reds three prospects, including double-A outfielder Chris Young, the Chicago Tribune reported.

Griffey can reject any trade under the "10-5" rule, because he has played 10 years in the major leagues and the past five with the Reds.

USA Today reported recently that Griffey was dealt, but that Reds CEO Carl Lindner killed the trade.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/8829546/

I guess you were right. For some reason, I remembered Brian Anderson as being the centerpiece in the return, but I guess I was wrong. Oh well.

Either way, if we did have Young that would probably mean bye-bye to Dunn after this year. Did you see the deal he just signed with Arizona?

Benihana
04-14-2008, 02:36 PM
Apparently Hal McCoy said a few days ago that Dusty Baker wants to call up Jay Bruce. I don't want him up here unless he's going to start every day but I wouldn't be surprised if he's brought up here within the next month.

Why? Where would he play?

KronoRed
04-14-2008, 03:38 PM
He'd be on the bench to start probably.

I guess Bruce will be this years Bailey "Bring the kid up he will SAVE THE SEASON" ;)

REDREAD
04-14-2008, 03:45 PM
Why? Where would he play?


Exactly. Unless Dunn or Jr is injured, traded, or moved to 1b, it makes no sense to call up Bruce.

IMO, benching Patterson for Bruce helps marginally at best. We can't take the hit on defense, and we also can't assume Bruce immediately starts hitting like mad.

Ideally, Dunn could be talked into playing 1b, but that's not going to happen.

KoryMac5
04-14-2008, 03:59 PM
The more I look at it the more I want to fire Krivsky. I know it has been only a few games, but this roster was poorly constructed from the beginning. Who ever used the pantry analogy was on to something.

Looking at this roster is like going into the pantry to find something for dinner, yet all you see are the same food products made by different labels.

We have a LH 1st base platoon and an outfield made up of three similiar pieces. This roster has tied Baker's hands and needs to be dealt with. I just don't have confidence that Krivs is the one to do it.

I'm sorry I have come over to the dark side. :starwars:

Chip R
04-14-2008, 03:59 PM
Ideally, Dunn could be talked into playing 1b, but that's not going to happen.


But if anyone could do that it'd be Dusty.

Highlifeman21
04-14-2008, 04:02 PM
Why? Where would he play?

Hopefully that unicorn of a defensive alignment happens that brings Dunn to 1B, and we see the 5-headed OF monster of Bruce, Patterson, Griffey, Freel and Hopper (although if Bruce is called up I would bet large sums of money that either Hopper goes down or Freel is traded), and resulting in Votto and or Hatteberg being traded in a package that nets better starting pitching (hopefully a LH SP).

I agree with everyone who feels strongly that if Bruce comes up, he needs to play everyday. That being the case, I don't want Bruce taking ABs from Dunn or Patterson (for defensive reasons). So the only other place Bruce will take ABs is from Griffey, and I don't see The Dusty doing that.

TRF
04-14-2008, 04:28 PM
I wouldn't even hint to Dunn about moving to 1B until I get overwhelmed with offers for Votto. And that kid is starting to hit. the power comes next.

And by overwhelmed I mean a Matt Cain type return. I want a TOR guy in the majors right now. If I have to throw in a minor leaguer or two, no one above AA. No Bruce, No Bailey. Stubbs' value is at an all time high, and there are 2 kids in Dayton tearing things up.

Dunn is going to end up at 1B. No way around that. but it can't happen with Votto in the lineup. Votto, Hatte/Freel/Hopper (or all three) and Daryl Thompson for Cain. Then I make a move for Kemp centered around Patterson and possibly Bailey. Offense and SP are addressed.

I think I just Krusty'd myself.

WebScorpion
04-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Here it is tomorrow and the moves I'm making are these: Move the whole team to Chicago. Move the whole team to the batting cage and wear out some baseballs. Move the whole team out to the field for infield practice...keep EE out there the rest of the day. Move my beer to my lips in a repetetive motion until a warm fuzzy feeling envelops me. :beerme:

Bring on the Cubbies!

Kc61
04-14-2008, 04:31 PM
Hopefully that unicorn of a defensive alignment happens that brings Dunn to 1B, and we see the 5-headed OF monster of Bruce, Patterson, Griffey, Freel and Hopper (although if Bruce is called up I would bet large sums of money that either Hopper goes down or Freel is traded), and resulting in Votto and or Hatteberg being traded in a package that nets better starting pitching (hopefully a LH SP).

I agree with everyone who feels strongly that if Bruce comes up, he needs to play everyday. That being the case, I don't want Bruce taking ABs from Dunn or Patterson (for defensive reasons). So the only other place Bruce will take ABs is from Griffey, and I don't see The Dusty doing that.

Bruce is doing ok at AAA, but striking out a lot, and I sincerely doubt he is being called up soon. Dusty was probably expressing frustration upon the realization that his team needs hitters.

What's amazing is that the Reds are now awaiting the arrival of two defensive players, Gonzo and Ross, to beef up the offense against lefties. Who ever thought that Gonzo and Ross would be looked upon as key offensive upgrades?

The three problems right now (some related) are Dunn, EE, and righty hitting generally. Dunn will come around soon, if history is a guide. EE remains a question mark.

As for righty hitting, short term, the Reds should

Bring up Cabrera from AAA, get Ross healthy, get Gonzo healthy. Have them replace three members of the current bench. Probably Hopper, Castro and Valentin.

If EE continues his swoon, install Keppinger at 3B. Send EE down (he seems to get going at AAA every year) and bring up Hairston.

That would leave a bench of Bako, Freel, Hairston, Hatteberg, and Cabrera. A catcher, two versatile guys, a lefty hitter and a righty hitter.

Jpup
04-14-2008, 04:52 PM
He'd be on the bench to start probably.

I guess Bruce will be this years Bailey "Bring the kid up he will SAVE THE SEASON" ;)

That's better than waiting on Anderson Machado. ;)

edabbs44
04-14-2008, 05:35 PM
I've been saying this for a while, but this team needs to figure out what they want to accomplish this year, next year and beyond. The current roster is most likely not going to get you to the postseason. Therefore, they need to give up some talent to try and win now.

But is that in the best interest of the future of this franchise? Should they sacrifice a part of the future (i.e. Votto, Homer, Stubbs) for the now? Will it be enough?

That's the decision that needs to be made.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 05:37 PM
I've been syaing this for a while, but this team needs to figure out what they want to accomplish this year, next year and beyond. The current roster is most likely not going to get you to the postseason. Therefore, they need to give up some talent to try and win now.

But is that in the best interest of the future of this franchise? Should they sacrifice a part of the future (i.e. Votto, Homer, Stubbs) for the now? Will it be enough?

That's the decision that needs to be made.

True. And to clarify: this roster as it is won't get you a whiff of the postseason. Probably not within 10 games.

edabbs44
04-14-2008, 05:42 PM
True. And to clarify: this roster as it is won't get you a whiff of the postseason. Probably not within 10 games.

It's still early and personally I think that a three game sweep at the hands of the Pirates shouldn't be causing anyone to jump ship. That is, if they were on ship prior to the series.

The scary part of this season will be if/when the FO pushes the panic button. If they got some sort of ultimatum regarding a "win now" mentality, then we could possibly see a trade that would just burn this franchise for the next few years. WK showed restraint this offseason...not sure if he could hold off any more if this team was 10 games back in June.

REDREAD
04-14-2008, 06:02 PM
That's better than waiting on Anderson Machado. ;)

:lol: I had forgotten about that chapter in Reds' history, when Machado was giong to be DanO's calvary to save the day :lol:

REDREAD
04-14-2008, 06:05 PM
The scary part of this season will be if/when the FO pushes the panic button. If they got some sort of ultimatum regarding a "win now" mentality, then we could possibly see a trade that would just burn this franchise for the next few years. WK showed restraint this offseason...not sure if he could hold off any more if this team was 10 games back in June.

That's interesting. I wonder what Wayne will do if this team starts to slip in the standings and he knows his job is on the line? Will he do another desperation move or will he simply wait to be lead to the gallows?

Jpup
04-14-2008, 06:18 PM
That's interesting. I wonder what Wayne will do if this team starts to slip in the standings and he knows his job is on the line? Will he do another desperation move or will he simply wait to be lead to the gallows?

Volquez and Cueto may have kept Krivsky around longer than a lot of folks think. I expect a new contract for him.

Chip R
04-14-2008, 06:31 PM
:lol: I had forgotten about that chapter in Reds' history, when Machado was giong to be DanO's calvary to save the day :lol:


That was so sad it was funny.

Spring~Fields
04-14-2008, 06:51 PM
What's amazing is that the Reds are now awaiting the arrival of two defensive players, Gonzo and Ross, to beef up the offense against lefties. Who ever thought that Gonzo and Ross would be looked upon as key offensive upgrades?



:lol:

I can just imagine Patterson leading off with Gonzo hitting second. ;)

edabbs44
04-14-2008, 06:53 PM
Volquez and Cueto may have kept Krivsky around longer than a lot of folks think. I expect a new contract for him.

WK should get limited credit for the success of Cueto.

I think he made the right move for Volquez (at the time) and deserves every bit of credit and/or blame for that trade after it starts to work itself out. High risk, high reward trade.

KronoRed
04-15-2008, 02:15 AM
:lol:

I can just imagine Patterson leading off with Gonzo hitting second. ;)

I love me some auto outs.