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View Full Version : Did the Reds make the right move in starting Cueto.



KoryMac5
04-13-2008, 11:57 PM
I just finished reading a game thread where this became the topic of discussion. I felt that both sides made valid points, and felt the need to bring the question to a wider audience.

If you were Baker or the FO would you have put Cueto into the starting rotation, or would you have eased his transition by having him in the pen. Feel free to post your answers freely and to not be confined to the choices I have put forth.

redsrule2500
04-13-2008, 11:59 PM
Yeah, they did IMO.

reds44
04-14-2008, 12:02 AM
Yes, no doubt.

*BaseClogger*
04-14-2008, 12:03 AM
Definitely. Who else would be in the rotation? Bailey? Affeldt? Belisle is hurt...

Screwball
04-14-2008, 12:07 AM
It was the right decision. He hasn't broken a pitch count of 100, and he's given the Reds a great shot to win in 2 of his 3 starts. If Cueto gets a call here and a defensive play there today, this isn't even a question.

Superdude
04-14-2008, 12:10 AM
There's nothing wrong with one rough start on a cold, rainy day for a 22 year old rookie. It had to happen sometime and to say we made a bad decision seems a tad fickle at this point.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 12:12 AM
Definitely. Who else would be in the rotation? Bailey? Affeldt? Belisle is hurt...

This isn't the best logic. It says that decisions like these should be ones of expedience, not rightness.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 12:13 AM
There's nothing wrong with one rough start on a cold, rainy day for a 22 year old rookie. It had to happen sometime and to say we made a bad decision seems a tad fickle at this point.

What if this is something that concerned you *before* said start?

Wheelhouse
04-14-2008, 12:14 AM
it was absolutely the right decision. Even if the Reds stink Cueto has a shot at ROY IMO.

*BaseClogger*
04-14-2008, 12:14 AM
This isn't the best logic. It says that decisions like these should be ones of expedience, not rightness.

You're right; not the best explanation. I still think he should be starting because I think he was ready, but all that really matters is what the Reds thought. My opinion doesn't really matter...

dougdirt
04-14-2008, 12:14 AM
19.1 innings, 3.72 ERA, 11 hits, 1 walk, 24 strikeouts....

Yeah, they made the right decision.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 12:14 AM
it was absolutely the right decision. Even if the Reds stink Cueto has a shot at ROY IMO.

Yeah, nothing like a bunch of meaningless personal awards.

VR
04-14-2008, 12:17 AM
It was very clear he has the stuff to be ready, including exceptional command.

That being said....the jury will be out, as it is for any young player, until we see how the league responds to him his first time through.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 12:19 AM
It was very clear he has the stuff to be ready, including exceptional command.

That being said....the jury will be out, as it is for any young player, until we see how the league responds to him his first time through.

Books on young players seem to be traveling with light speed anymore in MLB. I don't think it will even take a full sweep through the league for many teams to get down his patterns.

reds44
04-14-2008, 12:23 AM
Books on young players seem to be traveling with light speed anymore in MLB. I don't think it will even take a full sweep through the league for many teams to get down his patterns.
And he will have to adjust, just like every other young player does.

RedEye
04-14-2008, 12:24 AM
Books on young players seem to be traveling with light speed anymore in MLB. I don't think it will even take a full sweep through the league for many teams to get down his patterns.

And then the Reds will really know what they have on their hands.

I don't think Cueto had much left to prove in the minors and he was clearly the best starter for most of Spring Training. I think the Reds made the right move on giving him a shot. His next task will be to see if he can adjust to the batters' adjustments. It had to happen sometime.

KoryMac5
04-14-2008, 12:28 AM
Pedro Martinez in his first full season with the Dodgers at age 21 pitched out of the pen and that turned out to be a pretty sound move. I think the problem the Reds have is that they lack pitching. This lack of pitching causes them to rush kids into the rotation instead of easing their transition. The ideal scenario would have been to let Cueto come out of the pen and than ease him into the rotation after the break.

Screwball
04-14-2008, 12:32 AM
The ideal scenario would have been to let Cueto come out of the pen and than ease him into the rotation after the break.

Why? He's not putting too many innings/pitches on his arm and he's not hurting the Reds' chances of winning (for the most part). In fact, his numbers are pretty damn good. Sounds like an ideal rotation candidate to me.

Spitball
04-14-2008, 12:35 AM
I don't think it will even take a full sweep through the league for many teams to get down his patterns.

Yeah, but that can be said of any young pitcher. However, most young pitchers just are not as good as Cueto. It is logical for some regression in Cueto's performance level, but it is also logical that he will be able to make adjustments and still be a very good pitcher.

Jpup
04-14-2008, 12:46 AM
Yeah, but that can be said of any young pitcher. However, most young pitchers just are not as good as Cueto. It is logical for some regression in Cueto's performance level, but it is also logical that he will be able to make adjustments and still be a very good pitcher.

Yeah, just take at look @ Phil Hughes. He has struggled mightily this season. They are kids, they will learn.

KronoRed
04-14-2008, 01:43 AM
Sure, why not?

Caveat Emperor
04-14-2008, 01:52 AM
If you were Baker or the FO would you have put Cueto into the starting rotation, or would you have eased his transition by having him in the pen. Feel free to post your answers freely and to not be confined to the choices I have put forth.

I've never seen an ounce of data that would lead me to believe it's better for a young pitcher to start in the bullpen. A couple "success stories" (e.g Pedro Martinez) does not a winning strategy make.

KoryMac5
04-14-2008, 02:14 AM
I've never seen an ounce of data that would lead me to believe it's better for a young pitcher to start in the bullpen. A couple "success stories" (e.g Pedro Martinez) does not a winning strategy make.

I think the argument you are presenting works both ways in that there is no data on what is the best approach with young pitchers. My point is that in ideal circumstances Cueto would have been eased into the rotation some time after the break. Unfortunately the Reds lack of pitching did not allow for that transition to take place. The FO could be mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking a walk before you crawl approach to handling Bailey and Cueto.

fearofpopvol1
04-14-2008, 02:25 AM
I think the argument you are presenting works both ways in that there is no data on what is the best approach with young pitchers. My point is that in ideal circumstances Cueto would have been eased into the rotation some time after the break. Unfortunately the Reds lack of pitching did not allow for that transition to take place. The FO could be mortgaging the future of the franchise by taking a walk before you crawl approach to handling Bailey and Cueto.

If there is 1 thing that doesn't bother me about Cueto, it's his composure. Mentally, he seems extremely tough. Very rare for a young man his age. So, I think that element would be less relevant here.

WVRedsFan
04-14-2008, 03:06 AM
In answer to the initial question, yes. So far. I think we can evaluate the whole situation a little better in July and fully evaluate it in October. But for now, it was a good decision.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 10:01 AM
This time last year Cueto was in high A; now he's being expected to assume a full-time role in the MLB rotation, presumably 30 starts, if healthy. It's not unusual for the human body not to be fully developed at 22. And certainly a MLB season is different from a Whitman's Sampler of A+, AA, AAA, and Winter Ball. Again, I don't know the answer to this: now that he's been promoted to this position, what should be done if he struggles for a protracted period?

wheels
04-14-2008, 10:09 AM
Lemme get this straight.

Kid has a phenominal spring, everyone loves him in the rotation.

Kid puts together two excellent starts, he becomes a sensation.

Kid has one not so great start, now the decision to allow him to pitch in the rotation is being second guessed.

You guys do remember that the season is 162 games, right?

Aronchis is probably laughing in his grave right now.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 10:12 AM
Lemme get this straight.

Kid has a phenominal spring, everyone loves him in the rotation.

Kid puts together two excellent starts, he becomes a sensation.

Kid has one not so great start, now the decision to allow him to pitch in the rotation is being second guessed.

You guys do remember that the season is 162 games, right?

Aronchis is probably laughing in his grave right now.


You're right: exactly. The season is 162 games. That's sort of the point.

George Anderson
04-14-2008, 10:13 AM
I think if the Reds were to overreact and move Cueto out of the starting rotation after one or even two average starts, the rest of MLB would be laughing hysterically at them.

wheels
04-14-2008, 10:13 AM
You're right: exactly. The season is 162 games. That's sort of the point.

What am I missing here?

If this is a continuation from another thread, I sure as heck can't find it.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 10:29 AM
What am I missing here?

If this is a continuation from another thread, I sure as heck can't find it.

You're right--Cueto will be fine. This is a continuation of yesterday's game thread--at the end.

Tony Cloninger
04-14-2008, 10:35 AM
Lasorda never thought Pedro should have been a starter to begin with beacuse of his size......that had more to do with him being in the bullpen than in the starting rotation.....when he was with the Dodgers.

RedlegJake
04-14-2008, 10:47 AM
Lasorda never thought Pedro should have been a starter to begin with beacuse of his size......that had more to do with him being in the bullpen than in the starting rotation.....when he was with the Dodgers.

Yep. Martinez' role with LA had nothing to do with easing him in.

On Cueto I think we'll find out if he was ready or not by the way he reacts to outings to like yesterday's. If he is emotionally and mentally ready for the ML he'll go out next time as if nothing happened (while making physical adjustments as necessary). I think he'll be fine.

OnBaseMachine
04-14-2008, 12:25 PM
It was the right decision. He hasn't broken a pitch count of 100, and he's given the Reds a great shot to win in 2 of his 3 starts. If Cueto gets a call here and a defensive play there today, this isn't even a question.

Exactly. If Cueto had the resemblance of a major league defense behind him yesterday then we aren't even having this discussion right now. The kid has allowed a total of 12 baserunners in 19.1 innings and struckout 24 batters. He dominated two of the best lineups in baseball. I like the way Dusty has handled him so far: 92 pitches, 96 pitches, and 82 pitches in his three starts. If Dusty continues to keep him under 100 pitches then I'll have no worries.

bucksfan2
04-14-2008, 12:35 PM
Was Cueto's start that bad yesterday? I didn't get to watch it.

Reds1
04-14-2008, 12:41 PM
and took him out early. They are handling him great so far.

OnBaseMachine
04-14-2008, 12:49 PM
Was Cueto's start that bad yesterday? I didn't get to watch it.

No. He threw an easy 1-2-3 first inning. In the second inning he allowed a solo homerun to Ryan Doumit but then retired the next three hitters with ease. In the third inning he quickly struckout the first two hitters in the inning. Nate McClouth stepped in with two outs and Cueto had him 1-2. He lofted a routine foul pop off to the right side but Griffey was a step or two too late...most RFers make that catch. With second life, McClouth walked on a very close 3-2 pitch. Cueto thought it was strike three as he walked toward the dugout but the ump called it a ball. Next batter doubled down the LF line to score McCloth. Bay got out to end the inning. Cueto had scoreless 4th and 5th innings - only two runs allowed through 5. In the 6th inning, McClouth led off with a flyball to left field that seemed to be in the air for 20 minutes...Norris Hopper took an awful route to the ball and it fell in for a double. Again, a ball that needs to be caught by a major leaguers. After getting a short popout to hold the runner at 2nd, the next batter hit a soft liner up the middle that Phillips got a glove on but couldn't make the play. Next batter hits a sac fly to RF, there may have been a play at the plate but Griff couldn't get the ball out of his glove. Xavier Nady then smacks a hanger in the LF seats for a 2-run, two out homer. Then the inning ends. If Norris Hopper makes that play then we aren't even having this discussion right now. Still, it was Cueto's fault he hung a fat one to Nady but the defense can't be handing out four outs an inning.

membengal
04-14-2008, 12:59 PM
I thought Cueto's start was just fine yesterday. I guess I am missing the reason for the discussion. Not every pitcher is going to have a quality start every time out. They're just not. That said, he went six innings, allowed only five hits and one walk, and struck out six. One runner per inning, on average? I will take my chances with that from any Reds starter in any outing this year.

I guess I don't see the basis for second-guessing or concern. About pitching Cueto anyway. Concern about the hitting? Yeah, I can see that.

Patrick Bateman
04-14-2008, 01:11 PM
This time last year Cueto was in high A; now he's being expected to assume a full-time role in the MLB rotation, presumably 30 starts, if healthy. It's not unusual for the human body not to be fully developed at 22. And certainly a MLB season is different from a Whitman's Sampler of A+, AA, AAA, and Winter Ball. Again, I don't know the answer to this: now that he's been promoted to this position, what should be done if he struggles for a protracted period?

Combined with Winter ball, Cueto did assume a 200 inning workload last year... if he skips that this year (and he probably will), his workload wont be increasing. He's shown he can handle it.

KoryMac5
04-14-2008, 01:11 PM
This time last year Cueto was in high A; now he's being expected to assume a full-time role in the MLB rotation, presumably 30 starts, if healthy. It's not unusual for the human body not to be fully developed at 22. And certainly a MLB season is different from a Whitman's Sampler of A+, AA, AAA, and Winter Ball. Again, I don't know the answer to this: now that he's been promoted to this position, what should be done if he struggles for a protracted period?

I think this is a valid point that FCB brings up. The season is 162 games long, it is a grinding and grueling process for many mlb players, more so for rookies. We always hear about that wall that rookies run into half way through the season or towards the end. What do we do with Cueto if and when he hits that wall? I just think the Reds should have taken a cautious approach with a younger still developing arm. Build his confidence and limit his innings in the pen, after the break turn him loose.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 01:25 PM
Combined with Winter ball, Cueto did assume a 200 inning workload last year... if he skips that this year (and he probably will), his workload wont be increasing. He's shown he can handle it.

He's shown he can handle a minor league season.

*BaseClogger*
04-14-2008, 01:37 PM
He's shown he can handle a minor league season.

in which they ride busses to the games and have much fewer amenities than MLB'ers...

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 01:42 PM
in which they ride busses to the games and have much fewer amenities than MLB'ers...

And where Larry Luebbers and Pat Watkins are superstars.

flyer85
04-14-2008, 01:48 PM
as I have said all along Cueto's workload needs to be very closely monitored. I would have no problem if his turn is skipped every once in a while. Under age 23 is in the injury nexus and should be a concern.

RedlegJake
04-14-2008, 01:56 PM
as I have said all along Cueto's workload needs to be very closely monitored. I would have no problem if his turn is skipped every once in a while. Under age 23 is in the injury nexus and should be a concern.

My only concern right here. Watch his workload carefuly. Other than that, Cueto has shown he is ready to be in the ML.

Reds Fanatic
04-14-2008, 02:01 PM
The Reds absolutely made the right move. I would only be worried if they were abusing his arm with high pitch counts. But so far I think they have handled him just right. He has not thrown too many pitches and I don't worry about an occasional bad start. That is going to happen to anyone especially a young pitcher. As long as they keep his pitch counts under control there is no reason he should not be part of the rotation.

Spitball
04-14-2008, 03:21 PM
I think this is a valid point that FCB brings up. The season is 162 games long, it is a grinding and grueling process for many mlb players, more so for rookies. We always hear about that wall that rookies run into half way through the season or towards the end. What do we do with Cueto if and when he hits that wall? I just think the Reds should have taken a cautious approach with a younger still developing arm. Build his confidence and limit his innings in the pen, after the break turn him loose.

Starting pitchers train like long distant runners, and relievers train like sprinters. It isn't that easy to go from the pen to the starting rotation. A pitcher has to build up his endurance and adjust to the difference in jobs.

Joba Chamberlain was being dicussed on ESPN yesterday (maybe Saturday). He is very unlikely to be moved to the Yankee's rotation this season for that very reason.

In the era of the four-man rotation, relievers were used differently. There were generally ten man pitching staffs and long relievers usually pitched multiple innings and employed their arsenol of pitches. Today, we see a pitcher for the seventh only, one for the eighth, and one for the nineth inning. These guys are going full blast with basically two pitches. They are basically in there for a sprint and not the mile.

KoryMac5
04-14-2008, 04:05 PM
Chamberlain has been limited to a bullpen role for two reasons:

1. Chamberlain is so effective as a setup man.

2. The Yankees correspond to the philosophy that you need to limit the innings of your young arms in order to protect against injury.

This quote taken from a spring training article which addresses this vary point.


It had been speculated throughout the offseason that Chamberlain could open in the 'pen as a way to restrain his innings from going beyond the approximately 140 the organization wants to limit him to in 2008. The Yanks believe that at Chamberlain's age (22), he should not be asked to exceed his innings total of last year (112.1) by much more than 30 innings, or else he would be put at a greater likelihood for an arm injury.

Matt700wlw
04-14-2008, 04:06 PM
He earned it.

He's showing why he earned it.

Matt700wlw
04-14-2008, 04:10 PM
Was Cueto's start that bad yesterday? I didn't get to watch it.

Wasn't as bad as the line says...some poor defense made him have to get extra outs, and finally in the 6th, on one of those said extra outs, they got to him

Matt700wlw
04-14-2008, 04:11 PM
He's shown he can handle a minor league season.

Can't prove he can handle a major league season until he pitches in the major leagues.

He's shown he can handle the minors. It's been said by people much closer to the situation than you'll ever be that he's further along in his development than Homer Bailey. It's been said by some closer to the situation than again, you'll ever be, that he was ready last year. I was told these things personally by one such person a number of times in the past year.

Guess what...so far, he's showing that he is that good. His control is phenomenal, his stuff is filthy good, and he's not afraid to go after hitters with any pitch in any coutn, he doesn't walk guys, and he's pitch efficient. One bad inning, with some bad defense, on a cold and rainy April day doesn't change that.

KoryMac5
04-14-2008, 04:18 PM
It is also not just FCB and myself who are concerned with the overuse of rookie pitchers. Several articles have appeared talking about this point citing Liriano, Wood, Prior, and Verlander:


Throughout this summer, two bombs have been ticking in the American League Central. One has gone off, and the Tigers’ postseason hopes rest on defusing the other one.

Francisco Liriano, the Twins’ sensational rookie left-hander, looked like a Cy Young award contender as he shot to a 12-3 record and a 2.19 earned run average. But then he felt elbow discomfort, skipped a start, tried to pitch through it and now sits on the disabled list, with the rest of his season, and his team’s postseason hopes, in danger.

Detroit’s rookie ace, Justin Verlander, appears to be teetering on the edge of breaking down himself. Mainly for precautionary reasons, the Tigers had Verlander skip a start this month. Yet he has returned to lose two straight, including Wednesday’s seven-walk outing against the Red Sox, leaving his division-leading team trying to strategize how to keep him strong for the postseason.

Rookie pitchers tend to mesmerize everyone — fans, reporters, their own managers — particularly when they are powering their team’s pennant hopes the way that Verlander, Liriano and the Angels’ Jered Weaver (who won his first nine decisions) have this summer. But in so doing they tend to appear more capable than they truly are. The recent history of arms pushed during their rookie seasons is not kind.

In the past 10 seasons, as baseball’s treatment of young arms has evolved from barbaric to merely crude, 7 of the 10 pitchers with the most innings thrown (including the postseason) during their rookie seasons have almost immediately afterward encountered arm injuries — including each of the top five. Some, like Matt Morris, took years to return to form, while others, like Alan Benes, never pitched well again.

Verlander is on track to join that list, at least numerically. Entering yesterday’s games, he had pitched 146 1/3 innings through the Tigers’ 122 games, which projects to 194 for the season. If he makes two or three starts in the postseason, which the Tigers want at a minimum, he will reach the 210- to 220-inning range, close to Morris’s 217 innings, the most among rookie pitchers in the last 10 years.

Between puffs and eventual crunches of his cigarette, Jim Leyland, Verlander’s manager, grew annoyed at the entire topic of how to protect his ace.

“Who should it be harder for in September — Justin Verlander or Randy Johnson, who’s 40-something years old?” Leyland said. “If you can’t pitch the innings, then you don’t belong in the big leagues. Now, do I try to take care of them? Yes. Am I conscious about trying to not get somebody hurt? Absolutely. But I can’t live in this shelter that says, ‘Oh, I’m afraid to pitch my guy, because if he throws too many pitches, the general manager or the fans are going to be ticked off.’ ”

Detroit has been more careful with Verlander than Leyland’s frustration suggests. The Tigers skipped his turn during the All-Star Game break and again two weeks ago, and because of their healthy lead in the A.L. Central could do so again in September, said the pitching coach, Chuck Hernandez. Hernandez added that the team was also protecting the rookie setup star Joel Zumaya by almost never letting him pitch two days in a row.

“It’s a long season, and it’s going to be taxing on your arm,” said Verlander, 23, who threw 130 innings in his first professional season last year, mostly in the minor leagues.

“I’m really critical of everything right now, just because I don’t know. When I’m sore, I’m like, Oooh, is that all right? So I go to the training room, and they tell me that it’s fine, I’m sore, yadda, yadda, yadda.”

“I’m in uncharted territory,” Verlander continued. “I don’t know what’s going to happen at 160, 170, 180, 200 innings. I know a lot of times, people don’t like rookies to go that far. But for me, as long as I feel good, I don’t think it’s an issue.”

Studies of pitcher use and possible overuse usually focus on two matters: pitches thrown in a game and innings thrown in a season. With regard to innings, surpassing a pitcher’s career high by 30 or 40 has been shown to be quite dangerous — particularly in moving to the majors, where innings are more taxing.

If overuse was a problem for Liriano, it was last season, when he threw 192 innings (168 in the minors), topping his previous high by 35. His breakdown probably stemmed more from poor communication, because the day before news of his forearm pain surfaced, he proudly declared: “My arm feels great; everything feels fine. I’m ready to go.”

Whether Verlander will be ready to go in October remains a question. Hernandez remains optimistic, in part because he spent last season coaching Tampa Bay’s pitchers, one of them the promising rookie Scott Kazmir.

“We left with Scotty out of spring training thinking 150 or 160 innings was going to be max,” Hernandez said. “Well, he was at 185, throwing better than anybody and feeling great.”

Kazmir spent two weeks on the disabled list this summer with a sore shoulder.

E-mail: keepingscore@nytimes.com

I think this Times article is a really good one to look at because it shows both sides of the debate that is going on in this thread. I bolded what I thought were some of the key points that many of us have been trying to get at. Since Cueto is in the rotation to stay, the next question should be how many innings should he pitch this year?

flyer85
04-14-2008, 04:30 PM
wrong thread

wheels
04-14-2008, 04:33 PM
You're right--Cueto will be fine. This is a continuation of yesterday's game thread--at the end.

It's not about me being "right".

I sure as heck don't know if Cueto will be fine or not. His arm could blow up the very next pitch he throws.

If he goes out and gets kicked around a few times, that's to be expected. It might even be for the best. It limits the pitch count, and the young guy learns some valuable lessons.

You have to agree that very few young pitchers make as good of a first impression as Johnny Cueto. He has the command and control we all wish Homer Bailey had. I don't see any reason not to give him the chance to prove otherwise.

Once again, I don't have a crystal ball, and young pitchers are volatile, and pitching a baseball is an unnatural act....Lots of outside factors working on him. It's foolish to deem him the next ace of the NL, but it's also a little early to call him a failure.

wheels
04-14-2008, 04:36 PM
I'd like to add that I think he should be coddled and monitored closely. 90 pitches per outing, maybe less.

I just think he belongs in the rotation is all.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 04:37 PM
It's not about me being "right".

I sure as heck don't know if Cueto will be fine or not. His arm could blow up the very next pitch he throws.

If he goes out and gets kicked around a few times, that's to be expected. It might even be for the best. It limits the pitch count, and the young guy learns some valuable lessons.

You have to agree that very few young pitchers make as good of a first impression as Johnny Cueto. He has the command and control we all wish Homer Bailey had. I don't see any reason not to give him the chance to prove otherwise.

Once again, I don't have a crystal ball, and young pitchers are volatile, and pitching a baseball is an unnatural act....Lots of outside factors working on him. It's foolish to deem him the next ace of the NL, but it's also a little early to call him a failure.

I'm not calling him a "failure." Far from it. In fact, I'm calling him the most valuable young arm the Reds have developed in my lifetime. But 22 is young for a full workload.

WebScorpion
04-14-2008, 05:12 PM
I think that is the point right there. His age, and the development of a young body. There is some evidence that points to overuse of a pitcher before the age of 23 causing irreparable damage. I'm in the 'coddle him' group. I'd want him skipped whenever possible...this is where the leather Fogg, (like Velvet Fog only not so smooth,) comes in. His whole purpose is to eat innings to save wear and tear on the young arms. Sure, I'd like to win it all this year, but not at the expense of ruining that golden arm. Volquez will turn 25 this year, so I'm not as concerned about his total workload...I'd let him ease his way up over 100 pitches by going a little longer each start. I think I'd keep Cueto on a 100-pitch count all season and try to keep his total innings on the season at 180 or below by skipping his turn occassionally. By the way, Homer Bailey is younger than Cueto, so I'd place the same restrictions on him. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/gun.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

wheels
04-14-2008, 05:13 PM
I'm not calling him a "failure." Far from it. In fact, I'm calling him the most valuable young arm the Reds have developed in my lifetime. But 22 is young for a full workload.

I think we're in agreement.

I also wouldn't have had a problem starting him off in the pen this season, but now that he's in the rotation I'd like to see him stay there a while longer.

Keep his pitch count low, though.

Spitball
04-14-2008, 05:15 PM
Chamberlain has been limited to a bullpen role for two reasons:

1. Chamberlain is so effective as a setup man.

No argument on this one, but he stays there all season because he has been throwing short, high intensity stints. He won't likely be in the rotation this season because he can't be effectively recondition for starting in mid-season.

2.
The Yankees correspond to the philosophy that you need to limit the innings of your young arms in order to protect against injury.


Well, Phil Hughes is younger and Ian Kennedy only a bit older.

Benihana
04-14-2008, 05:18 PM
Here's a crazy idea:

What about a six man rotation once Belisle comes back? Pitch Harang on his normal schedule (every five days) but everyone else pitches every six (or seven) days. It is unorthodox (and I believe it was tried somewhere before) but it might be an interesting way of keeping the kids under 150 IP for the season.

Harang (once every five days)

Rotate Cueto, Arroyo, Volquez, Belisle and Fogg the other four days. If Bailey or Maloney show they are ready at some point this summer, bring them up to replace whoever is the weakest link (ahem, Fogg.) Thoughts?

bucksfan2
04-14-2008, 05:20 PM
I am of the thinking that each pitcher is unique. Comparing Liriano to Cueto is a pretty poor comparison. That guy had horriable mechanics and I believe that was one of the reasons San Fran gave up on him. Some guys have the easy effortless delivery that enables them to cause little harm to the arm. Other guys have violent deliveries that add strain to the arm. I think what you have to look for is when Cueto gets fatigued. You don't want him pitching with a tired arm. You dont want him throwing sliders or hooks when he is tired. Other than that you monitor him and maybe skip a start of his from time to time. If the reds are out of it in september you shut him down and wait until 08.

Highlifeman21
04-14-2008, 06:33 PM
Here's a crazy idea:

What about a six man rotation once Belisle comes back? Pitch Harang on his normal schedule (every five days) but everyone else pitches every six (or seven) days. It is unorthodox (and I believe it was tried somewhere before) but it might be an interesting way of keeping the kids under 150 IP for the season.

Harang (once every five days)

Rotate Cueto, Arroyo, Volquez, Belisle and Fogg the other four days. If Bailey or Maloney show they are ready at some point this summer, bring them up to replace whoever is the weakest link (ahem, Fogg.) Thoughts?

Not such a crazy idea.

Going to a 5+ man rotation would definitely limit the innings of Cueto and Volquez, which IMO is a must. We can work Fogg like a dog, for all I care. I don't think Belisle is a reliable guy for 165+ IP this year, and possibly not going forward due to his back not being fully matured/strengthened. I've fallen off the Arroyo bandwagon, so The Dusty can ride him hard too, for all I care. And I think The Dusty definitely needs to keep Harang on his consistent rest/schedule. IMO, that will maximize our results from Harang.

Bottomline, I'm open to any ideas that protect Cueto and Volquez this year.

cincrazy
04-14-2008, 07:46 PM
Books on young players seem to be traveling with light speed anymore in MLB. I don't think it will even take a full sweep through the league for many teams to get down his patterns.

What pattern? A 96 mph fastball on the black? Not much you can do about that

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 08:06 PM
What pattern? A 96 mph fastball on the black? Not much you can do about that

Tell that to Xavier Nady. And who's to say that he'll be able to throw 96 regularly? Maybe his body will force him to key it down a notch, like he did in Pittsburgh, topping out at 94, mostly at 90-91. That's the risk you take with not-physically-matured kid.

cincrazy
04-14-2008, 08:08 PM
Tell that to Xavier Nady.

First of all my friend, that wasn't a 96 mph fastball on the black. It was wet, he was probably a little tired, it happens.

And if a pitcher DOES theoritcally throw a 96 mph pitch on the black that gets hit out, that's reason to demote him? That doesn't mean that he's not ready.

The Reds aren't hurting his development right now. He has nothing to prove at AAA whatsoever. He belongs up here, and he's certainly prove that.

Falls City Beer
04-14-2008, 08:10 PM
First of all my friend, that wasn't a 96 mph fastball on the black. It was wet, he was probably a little tired, it happens.

And if a pitcher DOES theoritcally throw a 96 mph pitch on the black that gets hit out, that's reason to demote him? That doesn't mean that he's not ready.

The Reds aren't hurting his development right now. He has nothing to prove at AAA whatsoever. He belongs up here, and he's certainly prove that.

Read what I wrote: I'm not talking about AAA demotion. I'm talking about a slow promotion of a 22 year old, first in the bullpen, then into the rotation.

KoryMac5
04-14-2008, 08:15 PM
Starting Cueto in the pen at the beginning of the year ensures that his pitch count and innings pitched will be kept at a minimum. Now that he is a starter what safeguards are in place to limit his use. Will these safeguards still be in place if the Reds are 5 games back in August. The baseball season is young and circumstances do not remain static throughout the year.

cincrazy
04-14-2008, 08:56 PM
Read what I wrote: I'm not talking about AAA demotion. I'm talking about a slow promotion of a 22 year old, first in the bullpen, then into the rotation.

I agree with most of what you say. We do need to protect him. But in the game thread, you specifically questioned the Reds decision to bring him up, period.

I have no problem with him starting if they keep him around a 90 pitch limit, 6 or 7 innings. He's extremely pitch efficient, he's not going to run his pitch count up like a Kerry Wood. If he does that, then maybe you take some action.

But right now I just don't see much danger in what the Reds are doing. As was mentioned in the post above mine, it remains to be seen how the Reds will handle this if they're in the race in August. And I'll be the utmost critical of them at that time if they panic and rush him along.

But right now, I have little to no problem with the road he's taking.

sonny
04-14-2008, 11:45 PM
Every pitcher will lay a bomb every once in a while. No biggie.

Caveat Emperor
04-15-2008, 01:49 AM
Read what I wrote: I'm not talking about AAA demotion. I'm talking about a slow promotion of a 22 year old, first in the bullpen, then into the rotation.

If you're worried about injury, Cueto should be starting in AAA, on a pitch and innings count, instead of starting in the bigs.

All a "season in the bullpen" does is build service time and waste a valuable pre-arb year. The Yankees can afford to do that with their young phenoms -- the Reds cannot.

reds44
04-15-2008, 01:52 AM
Every pitcher will lay a bomb every once in a while. No biggie.
Yesterday wasn't even a bomb.

WebScorpion
04-15-2008, 11:30 AM
Here's a thought: We've got 3 pitchers who are veterans (Harang, Arroyo, Fogg) and can pitch on normal rest and three young pitchers (Volquez, Cueto, Bailey) who we'd like to keep total innings to a minimum for the season. We set the rotation up like this:

Harang
Young Pitcher
Arroyo
Young Pitcher
Fogg

...and we rotate Volquez, Cueto, and Bailey through those 2 slots. Also, when we have a day off we always skip a young pitcher slot unless one of the vets is showing obvious signs of tiring. Of course, we'd have to do without Juan Castro to account for the extra pitching slot...
I know, ... BRILLIANT!! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/weee.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

membengal
04-15-2008, 11:31 AM
I just wish we had Dave Williams and Joe Mays back and in the rotation. That would be a LOT better than wasting starts on Johnny Cueto...

Benihana
04-15-2008, 11:56 AM
Here's a thought: We've got 3 pitchers who are veterans (Harang, Arroyo, Fogg) and can pitch on normal rest and three young pitchers (Volquez, Cueto, Bailey) who we'd like to keep total innings to a minimum for the season. We set the rotation up like this:

Harang
Young Pitcher
Arroyo
Young Pitcher
Fogg

...and we rotate Volquez, Cueto, and Bailey through those 2 slots. Also, when we have a day off we always skip a young pitcher slot unless one of the vets is showing obvious signs of tiring. Of course, we'd have to do without Juan Castro to account for the extra pitching slot...
I know, ... BRILLIANT!! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/weee.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

Did you see my post on the last page? I suggested something very similar, only in my version Harang is the only pitcher that goes every five days. That way, you'd limit the innings thrown by the youngsters but you'd also limit the innings thrown by the "lesser" veterans like Arroyo, Belisle and Fogg- theoretically giving us a better chance to win games (if you assume Cueto and Volquez are better than those three.)

westofyou
04-15-2008, 12:22 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/reds/notes.htm


—RHP Johnny Cueto went to a 3-and-1 count Sunday on Pittsburgh's first hitter, Nate McLouth, the first time this season he had three balls on a batter after walking none and striking out 18 in his first two starts. Cueto went 16 innings before his first walk, striking out 22 before his first base on balls.

pedro
04-15-2008, 02:11 PM
Here's a thought: We've got 3 pitchers who are veterans (Harang, Arroyo, Fogg) and can pitch on normal rest and three young pitchers (Volquez, Cueto, Bailey) who we'd like to keep total innings to a minimum for the season. We set the rotation up like this:

Harang
Young Pitcher
Arroyo
Young Pitcher
Fogg

...and we rotate Volquez, Cueto, and Bailey through those 2 slots. Also, when we have a day off we always skip a young pitcher slot unless one of the vets is showing obvious signs of tiring. Of course, we'd have to do without Juan Castro to account for the extra pitching slot...
I know, ... BRILLIANT!! http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/ad/weee.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

I think it's a horrible idea.

Pitchers need to get used to throwing on a fixed schedule.

Chip R
04-15-2008, 02:39 PM
I noticed that nobody was asking these questions after his first two starts.

edabbs44
04-15-2008, 02:48 PM
I noticed that nobody was asking these questions after his first two starts.

Yep...The Reds were on their way to the WS on the backs of Cueto and Volquez until Cueto took one on the chin. Now the Reds are idiots.

KoryMac5
04-15-2008, 02:48 PM
I think though Chip in looking back some of these questions did come up during ST and before. We just happen to be revisiting them because the Reds haven't addressed a lot of them.

Chip R
04-15-2008, 02:54 PM
I think though Chip in looking back some of these questions did come up during ST and before. We just happen to be revisiting them because the Reds haven't addressed a lot of them.


And I realize that. edabbs is right. After Cueto's first two starts, it wasn't a matter of if he'd win the Cy Young but how many he'd win. Nobody questioned whether he belonged in the rotation then. Now he got roughed up a bit and all of a sudden he's bullpen fodder.

KoryMac5
04-15-2008, 02:56 PM
Yep...The Reds were on their way to the WS on the backs of Cueto and Volquez until Cueto took one on the chin. Now the Reds are idiots.

I think this is an unfair statement. Nobody is saying the Reds are idiots, some of us are interested in seeing what the plan for Cueto is and how the Reds are going to limit his innings. Let's remember also one of the criticisms of Baker when he was brought here was his handling of young pitchers, it is funny how that goes away after a few weeks. Like I said earlier the baseball season is not static it is very fluid things change weekly. I just want to know what the Reds plans are for limiting his innings now that he is a starter. It has been a good conversation with some very interesting ideas being thrown about and I am sure you may have some to share.

KoryMac5
04-15-2008, 03:04 PM
And I realize that. edabbs is right. After Cueto's first two starts, it wasn't a matter of if he'd win the Cy Young but how many he'd win. Nobody questioned whether he belonged in the rotation then. Now he got roughed up a bit and all of a sudden he's bullpen fodder.

Again in looking at the responses from this thread nobody is saying that Cueto is bullpen fodder. I myself have said that I thought he should have started the season in the pen to ease his transition and limit his innings. Unfortunately the Reds lack of pitching and Cueto's great spring forced the Reds hand. My concern is how are the Reds going to limit his innings as the year goes on. Injuries do happen and I want to see a valuable asset protected.

membengal
04-15-2008, 03:04 PM
Not only that, but I continue to question why the take is he was "roughed up".

westofyou
04-15-2008, 03:11 PM
Since 1876 - 1889 pitchers have pitched a season at the age of 22, 9.2% of those pitchers have had a RSAA over 9 (Runs Save Against Average) That's 178 pitchers.

Since 2001 the Reds have had exactly 14 pitchers with 10 RSAA in a season (Houston and St Louis had 26 each)


RSAA YEAR RSAA AGE
1 Bronson Arroyo 2006 41 29
T2 Aaron Harang 2006 28 28
T2 Elmer Dessens 2002 28 30
4 Aaron Harang 2007 23 29
5 Aaron Harang 2005 16 27
6 Danny Graves 2002 14 28
7 Scott Williamson 2002 13 26
T8 Chris Reitsma 2002 12 24
T8 Scott Sullivan 2001 12 30
T10 Todd Coffey 2006 11 25
T10 David Weathers 2006 11 36
T12 Bronson Arroyo 2007 10 30
T12 Jared Burton 2007 10 26
T12 Felix Heredia 2003 10 28

So #1 the Reds need something and #2 if they get it from Cueto that will be something out of the ordinary.

edabbs44
04-15-2008, 03:15 PM
Not only that, but I continue to question why the take is he was "roughed up".

Why wait until after his first "non-amazing" start to begin this thread?

Falls City Beer
04-15-2008, 03:31 PM
I noticed that nobody was asking these questions after his first two starts.

Fair point. But my reticence was on record prior to the season. It's not a reactionary position, speaking for myself.

And before Volquez gets roughed up and I'm accused of reverse-engineering: beware--he's going to struggle--and the Reds should have a plan B.

I've gone on record many, many times prior to this season warning of the dangers of leaning on two rookies in the rotation. Many times. A simple search can find out those posts. I'm basically the only poster arguing that, in spite of the good young pitching talent in the Reds system, the Reds should STILL continue to hunt a FA/trade #3 pitcher, and not rely heavily on the youth to throw 150 + innings.

But I'm fairly used to having my opinion ignored, then second-guessed when it turns out I'm right.

Cedric
04-15-2008, 03:47 PM
Fair point. But my reticence was on record prior to the season. It's not a reactionary position, speaking for myself.

And before Volquez gets roughed up and I'm accused of reverse-engineering: beware--he's going to struggle--and the Reds should have a plan B.

I've gone on record many, many times prior to this season warning of the dangers of leaning on two rookies in the rotation. Many times. A simple search can find out those posts. I'm basically the only poster arguing that, in spite of the good young pitching talent in the Reds system, the Reds should STILL continue to hunt a FA/trade #3 pitcher, and not rely heavily on the youth to throw 150 + innings.

But I'm fairly used to having my opinion ignored, then second-guessed when it turns out I'm right.

It's pretty obvious that having two rookies in the rotation is worrisome. I think anyone with half a baseball brain would realize they are going to take some lumps and I wish the Reds had better pitching depth. I wouldn't get that cocky over such a simple idea. I guess I should be mad at myself for not posting on this every second so that I can get ego points later on.

Damn I'm slow!

edabbs44
04-15-2008, 03:49 PM
Fair point. But my reticence was on record prior to the season. It's not a reactionary position, speaking for myself.

And before Volquez gets roughed up and I'm accused of reverse-engineering: beware--he's going to struggle--and the Reds should have a plan B.

I've gone on record many, many times prior to this season warning of the dangers of leaning on two rookies in the rotation. Many times. A simple search can find out those posts. I'm basically the only poster arguing that, in spite of the good young pitching talent in the Reds system, the Reds should STILL continue to hunt a FA/trade #3 pitcher, and not rely heavily on the youth to throw 150 + innings.

But I'm fairly used to having my opinion ignored, then second-guessed when it turns out I'm right.

The simple solution to this "problem" is to be realistic when setting goals. The "danger" of leaning on two rookies is that the team will not be that successful. If you are realistic about the chances of the team then the danger has been mitigated.

If you think that the team will be in contention and then roll out a "dangerous" type rotation, well then that's your problem for thinking that way.

membengal
04-15-2008, 04:07 PM
Well, since most of us on this board were somewhere around 81 wins in the prediction stuff (full disclosure, my guess was "81"), I guess I would say that people WERE and ARE being realistic about relying on a team with two rookie starters in it.

This is a year to build toward 2009 and 2010, in my view. I don't think I am alone in that. If they catch early lightning in a bottle and can do better than 81 wins in building toward those years because Cueto and Volquez excel earlier than one might reasonably expect, well, great. But if those guys are league average, which was my hope (not, mind you, cy youngy, just league average), then 81 wins isn't an insane hope. And if they can garner the valuable year experience, and their innings and pitch counts are managed (like they have been so far), then, well, GREAT.

In that case, the team is progressing toward its goal, valuable assets are getting needed time and innings in the rotation, and the Reds are farther down the road.

I guess I feel like a strawman is being created here, that people have some expectations of Cueto (and Volquez) that by and large was not reflected in some pretty level-headed seasonal predictions. And, there is zero way I understand or agree with raising an alarm with regard to these pitchers when they have very normal "not great" outings like Cueto may (or may not) have had last Sunday.

For what it is worth.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2008, 04:09 PM
It's pretty obvious that having two rookies in the rotation is worrisome. I think anyone with half a baseball brain would realize they are going to take some lumps and I wish the Reds had better pitching depth. I wouldn't get that cocky over such a simple idea. I guess I should be mad at myself for not posting on this every second so that I can get ego points later on.

Damn I'm slow!


No one I know expressed that concern; not that I'm aware of. If you'd point me to their expressions of the obvious, I'd be greatly indebted.

But screw people on this board--what about the front office? Do you know what their contingency is to limit the rookies' innings? Yeah--me neither.

Matt700wlw
04-15-2008, 04:10 PM
I like to think they have a set plan in place for the Cueto's of the world, when it comes to innings/pitches.

If not, then they have their own issues.

WMR
04-15-2008, 04:11 PM
I think it's a horrible idea.

Pitchers need to get used to throwing on a fixed schedule.

Didn't you say that you thought it would be a good plan to use Volquez in the swing role, skipping certain starts and using him out of the pen?

Falls City Beer
04-15-2008, 04:13 PM
Well, since most of us on this board were somewhere around 81 wins in the prediction stuff (full disclosure, my guess was "81"), I guess I would say that people WERE and ARE being realistic about relying on a team with two rookie starters in it.

This is a year to build toward 2009 and 2010, in my view. I don't think I am alone in that. If they catch early lightning in a bottle and can do better than 81 wins in building toward those years because Cueto and Volquez excel earlier than one might reasonably expect, well, great. But if those guys are league average, which was my hope (not, mind you, cy youngy, just league average), then 81 wins isn't an insane hope. And if they can garner the valuable year experience, and their innings and pitch counts are managed (like they have been so far), then, well, GREAT.

In that case, the team is progressing toward its goal, valuable assets are getting needed time and innings in the rotation, and the Reds are farther down the road.

I guess I feel like a strawman is being created here, that people have some expectations of Cueto (and Volquez) that by and large was not reflected in some pretty level-headed seasonal predictions. And, there is zero way I understand or agree with raising an alarm with regard to these pitchers when they have very normal "not great" outings like Cueto may (or may not) have had last Sunday.

For what it is worth.


I'm not talking about the rookies' ability to give great innings. I'm talking about limiting their innings, good or bad.

I have no illusions about their ability to contend this season, and I realize that virtually no one else does either. So it's not a strawman at all. It's a question of fact--how do you keep the kids from throwing more than too many innings. And, further, what is "too much?"

WMR
04-15-2008, 04:13 PM
Fair point. But my reticence was on record prior to the season. It's not a reactionary position, speaking for myself.

And before Volquez gets roughed up and I'm accused of reverse-engineering: beware--he's going to struggle--and the Reds should have a plan B.

I've gone on record many, many times prior to this season warning of the dangers of leaning on two rookies in the rotation. Many times. A simple search can find out those posts. I'm basically the only poster arguing that, in spite of the good young pitching talent in the Reds system, the Reds should STILL continue to hunt a FA/trade #3 pitcher, and not rely heavily on the youth to throw 150 + innings.

But I'm fairly used to having my opinion ignored, then second-guessed when it turns out I'm right.

Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back, we'd hate to miss out on your future fortune telling, miss cleo. :lol:

membengal
04-15-2008, 04:15 PM
Ideally, if it were MY team, I would want Cueto at around 175. I would think Volquez could get to 200.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2008, 04:16 PM
Try not to break your arm patting yourself on the back, we'd hate to miss your future fortune telling, miss cleo. :lol:

Just stating my case against a wave of garbage.

membengal
04-15-2008, 04:16 PM
What wave of garbage?

I like you, FCB, generally, but I really feel like you are straw-manning this one to death.

ETA: on top of that, you were hardly the only one hoping for another good veteran arm for this staff. Far from it.

WMR
04-15-2008, 04:17 PM
If the Reds/Dusty/Krivsky go the entire season w/o allowing Cueto to go over 105 or so pitches per outing, and he remains generally effective, I don't see how you could possibly call it a bad decision to allow him to continue in his starting role. Obviously, if he runs into "high stress" innings you need to handle that start accordingly.

Falls City Beer
04-15-2008, 04:20 PM
What wave of garbage?

I like you, FCB, generally, but I really feel like you are straw-manning this one to death.

ETA: on top of that, you were hardly the only one hoping for another good veteran arm for this staff. Far from it.

Chip said: "Who said anything about this while things were going good for Cueto?"

I responded. If that's a strawman--i.e. Chip's direct questioning of people expressing a concern about Cueto, then I don't know what a strawman is.

Edit: seriously, it's not worth it. He'll be fine.

Chip R
04-15-2008, 04:30 PM
Fair point. But my reticence was on record prior to the season. It's not a reactionary position, speaking for myself.



And you weren't the only one. But he made believers out of people. Now, all of a sudden, people are off the bandwagon. He's the same pitcher now that he was on April 3.

SirFelixCat
04-15-2008, 04:47 PM
I can not imagine why anyone would feel the Reds should NOT have Cueto in the rotation. Some people on here boggle the mind. The kid is 22, obviously has the stuff to be a stud and is going to take his lumps. I'm all for taking the good w/ the bad as he's so young.

I just don't get some of you guys....

WebScorpion
04-15-2008, 05:07 PM
I think it's a horrible idea.

Pitchers need to get used to throwing on a fixed schedule.

...and 3 of the pitchers would be.
So you'd advocate keeping the young guys in the rotation until they reach a certain number of innings, say 175, and then shutting them down for the season? ...and if we're in the playoffs?

Or should we just let them go until the season's over letting their level of 'tiredness' determine when they get rest?

I'm not saying that off-the-wall idea was the right way, I'm just saying it would be nice to limit their innings AND have them available to pitch in the post-season, if that becomes necessary. :pray:

I am not an advocate of making a starter a reliever because they are two different worlds. From the mental preparation all the way down to the specific types of muscle fiber needed. By the same token, you may be right, a non-routine schedule may be enough to put a starter off his game. who knows?

bucksfan2
04-15-2008, 05:16 PM
I can not imagine why anyone would feel the Reds should NOT have Cueto in the rotation. Some people on here boggle the mind. The kid is 22, obviously has the stuff to be a stud and is going to take his lumps. I'm all for taking the good w/ the bad as he's so young.

I just don't get some of you guys....

I really think some people would find something to gripe about a rotation of Webb, Peavy, Beckett, Bedard, and Santana. There are just some fans who always have a pesimistic view on the reds and its not going to change.

I don't see a problem with Cueto in the rotation. Nor do I want him venturing too far off schedule. Arroyo is another pitcher who doesn't like to pitch on extended rest so to add a 6th starter like mentioned above doesn't fly with me. I want to see Cueto out there every 5th or 6th day and on a strict pitch count. I also want to see him on an innings limit, similar to what the Sox did with Buckholtz. If you have to skip Cueto a start or two to limit his innings then do that. The reds are in a pretty good position because not only do they have a pretty good starting rotation they also have Belisle and Bailey in the wings.

KoryMac5
04-15-2008, 05:23 PM
What can boggle the mind is when people don't read through an entire thread to see both sides of an argument. I have no problem when people disagree with me, my wife often does. What I do have a problem with is people misrepresenting what is being said because they have opened the novel at page 201 instead of page 1. Nobody has said Cueto hasn't pitched well, nobody has stated he isn't any good. Some of us are concerned that the Reds don't have a plan to limit his innings.

If the central division ends up being average at best, the Reds may only be 5 games back in August. If Cueto continues to perform well Dusty is going to ride that horse until the Reds are eliminated from contention.

bucksfan2
04-15-2008, 05:30 PM
What can boggle the mind is when people don't read through an entire thread to see both sides of an argument. I have no problem when people disagree with me, my wife often does. What I do have a problem with is people misrepresenting what is being said because they have opened the nove at page 201 instead of page 1. Nobody has said Cueto hasn't pitched well, nobody has stated he isn't any good. Some of us are concerned that the Reds don't have a plan to limit his innings.

If the central division ends up being average at best, the Reds may only be 5 games back in August. If Cueto continues to perform well Dusty is going to ride that horse until the Reds are eliminated from contention.

And you are sure of that Dusty will ride Cueto if he is over his set innings limit? We haven't seen a reds young pitcher come up and be successful in years. We have no idea how Cueto's body will handle the stress of a major league season. We also have no idea how the combination of Dusty, Pole, Krivsky, and Jocketty will handle the situation. With pitching, and developing pitching at the forefront of everyone's mind in baseball a manager and gm who overlooks all the arm concerns of a young pitching star will have a black mark on his resume for a long long time.

*BaseClogger*
04-15-2008, 05:39 PM
6 innings per start X 30 starts = 180 innings

that seems like a reasonable amount of innings for Cueto after he threw about 200 innings last year with winter ball included...

WMR
04-15-2008, 05:57 PM
I'm much less concerned about innings than I am with pitches per start and pitches per inning.

*BaseClogger*
04-15-2008, 06:08 PM
I'm much less concerned about innings than I am with pitches per start and pitches per inning.

hasn't been a problem with Mr. Cueto, but if I must...


6 innings per start (with around 90 pitches per start) X 30 starts = 180 innings

that seems like a reasonable amount of innings for Cueto after he threw about 200 innings last year with winter ball included...

WMR
04-15-2008, 06:10 PM
I'm just saying... if he's at 70 pitches after 6 innings, let the kid keep throwing. He's so incredibly pitch efficient, at least to this point, that going by a strict innings limit isn't the best way to control his use/development.

*BaseClogger*
04-15-2008, 06:15 PM
yeah, I didn't mean limiting him to 6 innings, but averaging around 6 innings. He threw 200 innings last year, I'm not sure why people are worried--he's extremely pitch efficient...