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BUTLER REDSFAN
04-15-2008, 11:51 PM
This team is filled with non-productive dreck..Valentin,Castro,Dunn,Hopper, and Coffey..why is Bray not here?...why is Coffey here? We can have 5-6 players that do absolutely nothing but Bruce is in AAA? Why are we paying Dunn 15 mill a year to either walk or strike out 4 times a game?

Hondo
04-16-2008, 12:06 AM
If This Team had Alex Rodriguez or Manny Ramirez or Paul Konerko or Andruw Jones or Vladamir Guerrero or Troy Glaus or Carlos Lee or some kind of Right Handed Power Bat to HIT 4th in the Lineup, it would change the whole team production

1. Patterson
2. Phillips
3. Griffey
4. RIGHT HANDED POWER HITTER
5. Adam Dunn
6 Joey Votto
7. Keppinger
8. Bako/Valentin

Instead you have Phillips trying to do a Gary Sheffield Impression...

Oh and Todd Coffey is on the Team for the 3rd or 4th Year in a Row.

TheBigLebowski
04-16-2008, 12:09 AM
-Jay Bruce is not ready. You don't rush a gourmet dish like JB to the table too early.

-Javy Valentin is actually a very valuable player, despite what many here would lead one to believe. He swings a very effective LH bat, can play two positions and is not a horrible defensive catcher. I'm glad to have him on the team.

-Hopper, Castro and Coffey are exactly what you describe - dreck. The only purpose any of them serve is to make the team worse. We can only hope that these 3 will soon be replaced by Bray/Agon/Another living, breathing human being.

-Dunn is frustrating as hell. You know, Reds fans have been debating his value since his sophomore year as a pro...he has great power/he strikes out too much...he hits for a low BA/he has great OBP...he is a horrible defender/he is much better than he used to be...he doesn't put enough balls in play/he is a great run producer....so on and so forth. I have come to the conclusion that Adam Dunn, for all the positive things he may do, just does not help a team win baseball games. Tonight was a perfect example. He walked 3 times. His average remains well below .200. Maybe I'm over-simplifying but I do not want to pay a guy who is 6'6", 270 for drawing a lot of walks and "clogging up the bases," as Dusty would say. Getting on base is all well and good but he's not going to earn the ridiculous FA salary he and his agent will seek by drawing 3 walks in a game his team loses by 4 runs. There's just..something missing with Adam Dunn. I think he'll probably close out his career as a DH in the AL and he may even break the 50 HR mark over there. I wish him luck. I just don't want to see him finish his career as a Red.

BUTLER REDSFAN
04-16-2008, 12:11 AM
On paper it seems this lineup should score at least 7-8 runs a game... on paper :(

roby
04-16-2008, 02:20 AM
-Jay Bruce is not ready. You don't rush a gourmet dish like JB to the table too early.

-Javy Valentin is actually a very valuable player, despite what many here would lead one to believe. He swings a very effective LH bat, can play two positions and is not a horrible defensive catcher. I'm glad to have him on the team.

-Hopper, Castro and Coffey are exactly what you describe - dreck. The only purpose any of them serve is to make the team worse. We can only hope that these 3 will soon be replaced by Bray/Agon/Another living, breathing human being.

-Dunn is frustrating as hell. You know, Reds fans have been debating his value since his sophomore year as a pro...he has great power/he strikes out too much...he hits for a low BA/he has great OBP...he is a horrible defender/he is much better than he used to be...he doesn't put enough balls in play/he is a great run producer....so on and so forth. I have come to the conclusion that Adam Dunn, for all the positive things he may do, just does not help a team win baseball games. Tonight was a perfect example. He walked 3 times. His average remains well below .200. Maybe I'm over-simplifying but I do not want to pay a guy who is 6'6", 270 for drawing a lot of walks and "clogging up the bases," as Dusty would say. Getting on base is all well and good but he's not going to earn the ridiculous FA salary he and his agent will seek by drawing 3 walks in a game his team loses by 4 runs. There's just..something missing with Adam Dunn. I think he'll probably close out his career as a DH in the AL and he may even break the 50 HR mark over there. I wish him luck. I just don't want to see him finish his career as a Red.

Dunn is the exact opposite of a chihuahua that I know who thinks he's a Saint Bernard or a fierce German Shepherd. I'm convinced Dunn thinks he's a gazelle, a smallish, speedy lead off hitter! :confused:

mlbfan30
04-16-2008, 03:03 AM
-Javy Valentin is actually a very valuable player, despite what many here would lead one to believe. He swings a very effective LH bat, can play two positions and is not a horrible defensive catcher. I'm glad to have him on the team.


Career VS. RHP
.258 AVG .311 OBP .423 SLG .734 OPS

Career as Pinch Hitter
.200 AVG .260 OBP .348 SLG .608 OPS

Last year he allowed 40 SB and Caught 5, or an 11.1% CS rate

Career CERA (Catcher ERA)
Valentine is 5.09, and for comparison
Ross is 4.36

How is Valentine Valuable from playing 1B? If needed Dunn, Griffey, Freel, EE, etc all can play 1B.

Now... please explain how he's very valuable? He calls a bad game, can't throw runners out, and is probably below average defensively. He's a .260 Hitter with a .735 OPS from the left side... efficient hitter? As a pinch hitter he's even worse and has a .200 AVG with a .610 OPS.

big boy
04-16-2008, 10:42 AM
Why are we paying Dunn 15 mill a year to either walk or strike out 4 times a game?

If Dunner draws a walk, it is because the pitcher gave him 4 pitches out of the strike zone (duh, I know). He is not a good enough hitter to hit a pitcher's pitch or a pitch out of the strike zone. Given his skills, I don't think he should swing at pitches that aren't strikes. If he did, he would strike out even more. He has 16 walks and his obp is .407 so he isn't getting enough pitches that he can handle right now. He is kind of like Barry Bonds in that he won't swing at pitches he doesn't like. Of course, the difference is that when BB did swing, he usually crushed the ball where AD usually comes up empty. Hopefully, Dunner has a big July and they can dump him for something good.

bubbachunk
04-16-2008, 11:32 AM
Career VS. RHP
.258 AVG .311 OBP .423 SLG .734 OPS

Career as Pinch Hitter
.200 AVG .260 OBP .348 SLG .608 OPS

Last year he allowed 40 SB and Caught 5, or an 11.1% CS rate

Career CERA (Catcher ERA)
Valentine is 5.09, and for comparison
Ross is 4.36

How is Valentine Valuable from playing 1B? If needed Dunn, Griffey, Freel, EE, etc all can play 1B.

Now... please explain how he's very valuable? He calls a bad game, can't throw runners out, and is probably below average defensively. He's a .260 Hitter with a .735 OPS from the left side... efficient hitter? As a pinch hitter he's even worse and has a .200 AVG with a .610 OPS.

Wow good job on researching those stats i agree!

He is although an effective bench bat for what we have available to us i think :confused:

Now if he could actually hit from the right side we might have something.

mlbfan30
04-16-2008, 12:40 PM
He is although an effective bench bat for what we have available to us i think :confused:



As a SUB

.221 AVG .278 OBP .373 SLG .651 OPS

For some reference, Darin Erstad and Nook Logan had a .645 and .649 OPS respectively last year.

Nasty_Boy
04-16-2008, 12:41 PM
Did anyone watch last night's game? Dunn didn't get pitched to until the game was on ice. He had 2 five pitch walks... Dunn's average and productions is low because of his spot in the batting order. Move him to 2nd or 3rd and he'll score runs with those walks and he'll get more pitches to hit with Jr behind him. Dunn has score 100+ runs 3 of 4 seasons and he had 99 the other, that doesn't sound like base clogging.

hebroncougar
04-16-2008, 01:18 PM
Did anyone watch last night's game? Dunn didn't get pitched to until the game was on ice. He had 2 five pitch walks... Dunn's average and productions is low because of his spot in the batting order. Move him to 2nd or 3rd and he'll score runs with those walks and he'll get more pitches to hit with Jr behind him. Dunn has score 100+ runs 3 of 4 seasons and he had 99 the other, that doesn't sound like base clogging.


We have a winner. :thumbup:

BurgervilleBuck
04-16-2008, 01:24 PM
Did anyone watch last night's game? Dunn didn't get pitched to until the game was on ice. He had 2 five pitch walks... Dunn's average and productions is low because of his spot in the batting order. Move him to 2nd or 3rd and he'll score runs with those walks and he'll get more pitches to hit with Jr behind him. Dunn has score 100+ runs 3 of 4 seasons and he had 99 the other, that doesn't sound like base clogging.

That's assuming other teams are willing to walk him.

With as many strikeouts as he makes, he cannot be considered a power hitter.

mlbfan30
04-16-2008, 02:03 PM
That's assuming other teams are willing to walk him.

With as many strikeouts as he makes, he cannot be considered a power hitter.

So I guess Ryan Howard isn't a power hitter?

What about....
Reggie Jackson
Mike Schmidt
Mickey Mantle
Harmon Killebrew
Alex Rodriguez

Nasty_Boy
04-16-2008, 02:32 PM
That's assuming other teams are willing to walk him.

With as many strikeouts as he makes, he cannot be considered a power hitter.


So four straigh 40+ HR seasons don't make you a power hitter????

Dunn will still draw his fair share of walks, but if they throw him strikes he will hit his share of HRs and drive in a sizeable amount of runs. It's not that hard to figure out... Who would you rather pitch to, Edwin or Dunn? Dunn even though he hasn't had any breaks this season has made 5-6 hard / line drive outs. If those balls fall then he's hitting .280 and nobody cares. Edwin has hit 3 balls hard all season, his 2 HRs and last nights single and he was still out on his front foot.

757690
04-16-2008, 03:14 PM
Career VS. RHP
.258 AVG .311 OBP .423 SLG .734 OPS

Career as Pinch Hitter
.200 AVG .260 OBP .348 SLG .608 OPS

Last year he allowed 40 SB and Caught 5, or an 11.1% CS rate

Career CERA (Catcher ERA)
Valentine is 5.09, and for comparison
Ross is 4.36

How is Valentine Valuable from playing 1B? If needed Dunn, Griffey, Freel, EE, etc all can play 1B.

Now... please explain how he's very valuable? He calls a bad game, can't throw runners out, and is probably below average defensively. He's a .260 Hitter with a .735 OPS from the left side... efficient hitter? As a pinch hitter he's even worse and has a .200 AVG with a .610 OPS.

I agree with you that Valentin is not that valuable, since he is so bad defensively. If the Reds did not keep Cantu because of his defense, the can not justify keeping Javy.

But his offensive numbers are better than you say.

First, it is not fair to use his career #'s. He really came into his own these last two to three years. the last three years here are his average #'s.

xxxxxx BA OBP SLG OPS
VS RH .283 .335 .468 .803

Second, Pinch hitting #'s are deceptive since it is one at bat at a time. Very few subs have good numbers Pinch hitting or as a sub. Ryan Freel, who is considered a "supersub" has these numbers:

As PH .182 .289 .333 .623
As sub .234 .319 .406 .726

Jacob Cruz was the Reds last really good PH and here are his #'s

as PH .223 .344 .353 .697
as sub .239 .349 .358 .708

Lenny Harris is considered one of the greatest pinch hitters of all time. He holds the record for most pinch hits in a career. here are his #'s:

as PH .264 .317 .337 .654
as sub .254 .310 .327 .638

Remember these are guys who are on the bench, hence they are not good enough to start everyday. If they put up better numbers, like Keppinger did, they would start.

Again, I agree that the Reds need to replace Javy, but not because of his offense, which is better than average for a back up catcher, but because he is a horrible defensive player.

Hondo
04-16-2008, 09:39 PM
The big Problem is where these guys are placed in the batting order. Dunn has no Protection...

This team left 33 runners on Base in the Bucs Sweep...

There is the Problem... Count em, 33 Runners LOB

TheBigLebowski
04-17-2008, 01:05 PM
Javy is never going to be confused for Johnny Bench but he is a serviceable catcher..at best. However, he does swing a good LH bat. He has some value.

Adam Dunn hit a solo homer last night with the Reds down 10 runs.

Nasty_Boy
04-17-2008, 01:10 PM
Doesn't it make sense that once the Reds are down that people actually give Dunn pitches to hit? Dunn has only been in position to make a difference twice this season, against Arizona he singled to bring up EE for the game winning hit and the other he struck out against the toughest lefty (Marte) on lefties in the game. He sees nothing to hit when the game is close.

I also forgot that Dunn was the reason the Reds were down 10 runs. It was his fault.

TheBigLebowski
04-17-2008, 04:15 PM
Doesn't it make sense that once the Reds are down that people actually give Dunn pitches to hit? Dunn has only been in position to make a difference twice this season, against Arizona he singled to bring up EE for the game winning hit and the other he struck out against the toughest lefty (Marte) on lefties in the game. He sees nothing to hit when the game is close.

I also forgot that Dunn was the reason the Reds were down 10 runs. It was his fault.

Nice extrapolation. AD is far from the only reason this team was down 10 runs. Nowhere in anything I have written about him do I place the sole blame for this team's early season failures at his feet.

Hondo
04-17-2008, 06:54 PM
Nice extrapolation. AD is far from the only reason this team was down 10 runs. Nowhere in anything I have written about him do I place the sole blame for this team's early season failures at his feet.

Yeah, I think Foggs 2IP, 9ER had a bit to do with it...