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View Full Version : Why does everyone hate Arroyo now?



RedEye
04-16-2008, 02:50 AM
Over the past few days, I feel like I've read at least ten separate posts in different threads about how Arroyo is "no longer a major league average starter," about how Wayne's move to get him is "no longer working out," and about how we should "trade him immediately in order to get back a RH bat" or "replace him with Matt Belisle as soon as possible" (not direct quotes, but I think you are familiar with these complaints). While I don't necessarily disagree with trading Bronson for the right return, I can't help but think that our group brain is going a little bit batty right now.

Arroyo is only two starts into his season so far. He is 0-1, but has also struck out 14 batters in 15 innings, and has posted similar peripheral numbers to his underrated 2007, when a 9-15 record obscured the fact that, minus a bit of luck, he was performing very similarly to 2006. That year, if you remember, we all loved him and nearly crowned him prince of Cincinnati.

Starting pitching is not this franchise's new calling card. Not yet. Johnny Cueto and Edinson Volquez might dominate the rest of the season, but they also might implode and get demoted for more seasoning. Matt Belisle might come back and perform like Bronson's easy replacement, but he also might not come back at all. Homer Bailey isn't ready and Josh Fogg sucks.

Yes, the Reds do need a few more things on this team to make it go. However, I don't think unloading one of the two proven, steady performers in the rotation is a wise way to go about it--and certainly not when we're only 14 games into the season. Arroyo is not Johan Santana. He's not even Aaron Harang. But he's also not Josh Fogg, he's reasonably young, and he's signed to a fairly decent contract for a few years. Let's not rush to get rid of him. Not yet.

JinAZ
04-16-2008, 03:21 AM
Arroyo's xFIP (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/stats/players/index.php?lastName=arroyo), which helps adjust for the unusually high (and probably unlucky) HR/F rate he's had thus far, is 4.29. That's actually lower than he's averaged over the last seaveral years (League average is around 4.40). His strikeout rate has been up so far this season, and his walk rate is right where it normally is. Fangraphs has his fastball velocity (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=978&position=P) at down 0.7 mph this season, which I have to think is within the margin of error on those measures. ...

So I'm not seeing anything in his numbers to indicate that he's a different pitcher than he has been the last two seasons. We'll see, of course, but I'm not particularly worried about him right now.

The time to trade him was after the 2006 season, when his ERA topped his FIP by a good 0.8 runs. I wouldn't be upset about a trade now if they got a good return, but it seems like they'd be best served by waiting until his stock rose a little bit.
-j

cincyinco
04-16-2008, 03:28 AM
A voice calling for posters to be more level headed?

First week, we were good, better than the diamond backs they said... Playoff bound!

Now we're doomed. Its hopeless. We stink. We'll be lucky to win 70.

Yawn. The melodrama this season for whatever reason has gone hysterically overboard. The game theads are a dump and almost unbearable.

The sad thing is only ORG members are posting in that thead. You would think such members would know better than to spout some of the crud I've read. Keep an even keel, level head. Its pretty pathetic - but that's just this man's humble opinion.

I view those posts calling for the trade of arroyo after 2 starts the same as I do those calling the offense a bust 15 games in, or those calling for krivsky's head so soon... Rubbish, short sighted, and usually a waste of time to read.

Feel free to slam my post all you want, but coming off a pretty fun offseason for a redszone poster, this has been my least favorite last 3 or so weeks on here... Ever...

Topcat
04-16-2008, 03:36 AM
I like Arroyo he will be solid. As a whole i discount most reactionary posters as fans who have very little understanding of the Game. If that comes across as arrogant so be it. It is far better than fans who are fair weather and judge a player by few games and decide to throw players under the bus.

Screwball
04-16-2008, 03:41 AM
A voice calling for posters to be more level headed?

First week, we were good, better than the diamond backs they said... Playoff bound!

Now we're doomed. Its hopeless. We stink. We'll be lucky to win 70.

Yawn. The melodrama this season for whatever reason has gone hysterically overboard. The game theads are a dump and almost unbearable.

The sad thing is only ORG members are posting in that thead. You would think such members would know better than to spout some of the crud I've read. Keep an even keel, level head. Its pretty pathetic - but that's just this man's humble opinion.

I view those posts calling for the trade of arroyo after 2 starts the same as I do those calling the offense a bust 15 games in, or those calling for krivsky's head so soon... Rubbish, short sighted, and usually a waste of time to read.

Feel free to slam my post all you want, but coming off a pretty fun offseason for a redszone poster, this has been my least favorite last 3 or so weeks on here... Ever...

What he said.

mth123
04-16-2008, 05:46 AM
A voice calling for posters to be more level headed?

First week, we were good, better than the diamond backs they said... Playoff bound!

Now we're doomed. Its hopeless. We stink. We'll be lucky to win 70.

Yawn. The melodrama this season for whatever reason has gone hysterically overboard. The game theads are a dump and almost unbearable.

The sad thing is only ORG members are posting in that thead. You would think such members would know better than to spout some of the crud I've read. Keep an even keel, level head. Its pretty pathetic - but that's just this man's humble opinion.

I view those posts calling for the trade of arroyo after 2 starts the same as I do those calling the offense a bust 15 games in, or those calling for krivsky's head so soon... Rubbish, short sighted, and usually a waste of time to read.

Feel free to slam my post all you want, but coming off a pretty fun offseason for a redszone poster, this has been my least favorite last 3 or so weeks on here... Ever...

This is the post of the year.

OldXOhio
04-16-2008, 07:53 AM
A voice calling for posters to be more level headed?

First week, we were good, better than the diamond backs they said... Playoff bound!

Now we're doomed. Its hopeless. We stink. We'll be lucky to win 70.

Yawn. The melodrama this season for whatever reason has gone hysterically overboard. The game theads are a dump and almost unbearable.

The sad thing is only ORG members are posting in that thead. You would think such members would know better than to spout some of the crud I've read. Keep an even keel, level head. Its pretty pathetic - but that's just this man's humble opinion.

I view those posts calling for the trade of arroyo after 2 starts the same as I do those calling the offense a bust 15 games in, or those calling for krivsky's head so soon... Rubbish, short sighted, and usually a waste of time to read.

Feel free to slam my post all you want, but coming off a pretty fun offseason for a redszone poster, this has been my least favorite last 3 or so weeks on here... Ever...

Serenity Now :thumbup:

Falls City Beer
04-16-2008, 08:04 AM
I think this team is somewhere between Arizona and San Francisco on the talent scale. :)

Why the hatin'.

Falls City Beer
04-16-2008, 08:09 AM
I also think there are too many "Posts of the Year" given out. Perhaps we should consult the Academy. That seems like a violation.

redsmetz
04-16-2008, 08:12 AM
A voice calling for posters to be more level headed?

First week, we were good, better than the diamond backs they said... Playoff bound!

Now we're doomed. Its hopeless. We stink. We'll be lucky to win 70.

Yawn. The melodrama this season for whatever reason has gone hysterically overboard. The game theads are a dump and almost unbearable.

The sad thing is only ORG members are posting in that thead. You would think such members would know better than to spout some of the crud I've read. Keep an even keel, level head. Its pretty pathetic - but that's just this man's humble opinion.

I view those posts calling for the trade of arroyo after 2 starts the same as I do those calling the offense a bust 15 games in, or those calling for krivsky's head so soon... Rubbish, short sighted, and usually a waste of time to read.

Feel free to slam my post all you want, but coming off a pretty fun offseason for a redszone poster, this has been my least favorite last 3 or so weeks on here... Ever...

I'm with you on this. While I'm the eternal optimist, I think I've been fairly tempered in the realities we face this season. I think we have a core that can lead to a good team - but we're not there yet. The weaknesses, at times, at glaring and this is one of those times where they're fairly apparent. But it is very early. We've got some folks due back and some roster shuffling to do when those things occur. Any team can use bolstering and it wouldn't hurt here, but I think Bronson's one of the bright spots.

gonelong
04-16-2008, 08:22 AM
A voice calling for posters to be more level headed?

First week, we were good, better than the diamond backs they said... Playoff bound!

Now we're doomed. Its hopeless. We stink. We'll be lucky to win 70.

Yawn. The melodrama this season for whatever reason has gone hysterically overboard. The game theads are a dump and almost unbearable.

The sad thing is only ORG members are posting in that thead. You would think such members would know better than to spout some of the crud I've read. Keep an even keel, level head. Its pretty pathetic - but that's just this man's humble opinion.

I view those posts calling for the trade of arroyo after 2 starts the same as I do those calling the offense a bust 15 games in, or those calling for krivsky's head so soon... Rubbish, short sighted, and usually a waste of time to read.

Feel free to slam my post all you want, but coming off a pretty fun offseason for a redszone poster, this has been my least favorite last 3 or so weeks on here... Ever...

As a collective RZ will always be bi-polar, its just a by product of the success of the site. RZ has 2350 active members. If just 3% of them are reactionary we have 70+ posters going schitzo at any one time.

GL

Always Red
04-16-2008, 08:23 AM
I think the real reason Arroyo's catching some heat this year thus far is that his production is slipping while his contract (next year and in the future) is increasing.

I hope Arroyo can return to form. His curveball fits in nicely with a staff of younger, harder throwers.

Johnny Footstool
04-16-2008, 08:39 AM
We're fans, and fans are irrational and impatient.

BRM
04-16-2008, 09:00 AM
I also think there are too many "Posts of the Year" given out. Perhaps we should consult the Academy. That seems like a violation.

Post of the Year.

Sorry, FCB. ;)

WVRedsFan
04-16-2008, 09:05 AM
We're fans, and fans are irrational and impatient.

I totally agree on this. If we didn't love the Reds, we wouldn't bother.

Of course, after eight years, I'm not sure impatient is the correct word.

bucksfan2
04-16-2008, 09:07 AM
I think the real reason Arroyo's catching some heat this year thus far is that his production is slipping while his contract (next year and in the future) is increasing.

I hope Arroyo can return to form. His curveball fits in nicely with a staff of younger, harder throwers.

I think some of the problem with Arroyo is that he was made one of the faces of the franchise. He was also given a contract extention what would take his pay scale up and most cincinnati fans thought the amount of money given was too much. Not to mention that it was probably still at a discount or even money. I really think a lot of reds fans are still in shock over the contract that Barry Larkin got which payed him 9M a year and handcuffed the team for years. When ever they see a big contract they think it will prohibit the reds from making other moves.

Unassisted
04-16-2008, 09:09 AM
I also think there are too many "Posts of the Year" given out. Perhaps we should consult the Academy. That seems like a violation.The acronym for that award is POTY. Perhaps those awards should be flushed from our way of thinking? ;)

REDREAD
04-16-2008, 09:16 AM
I think the real reason Arroyo's catching some heat this year thus far is that his production is slipping while his contract (next year and in the future) is increasing.

I hope Arroyo can return to form. His curveball fits in nicely with a staff of younger, harder throwers.

Yep, it seems that Reds fans get really impatient with guys making big money. I'm not talking about just this site, Reds fans in general. They turned on Eric Davis pretty quick when he started making the "big" money. Larkin too.
It's just the nature of things.

Arroyo will be fine. I would trade him (or anyone) if it helped the club, but he shouldn't be a candidate to be dumped due to his impending salary. We're not in the John Allen era anymore. We can afford to pay Arroyo. There's no rush to dump him now before his salary goes up in the offseason to avoid teams lowballing us (like the 2003 firesale where everyone knew the Reds were selling for pennies on the dollar).

WebScorpion
04-16-2008, 12:45 PM
I totally agree on this. If we didn't love the Reds, we wouldn't bother.

Of course, after eight years, I'm not sure impatient is the correct word.

Fan is short for FANATIC...we are definitely fanatical. ;) Arroyo will be ok, it's still early. This is my answer for almost any veteran who has proven their performance over the years but is really stinking it up early in the season. It's what Grandpa always said. He'll be alright, it's a looong season. :thumbup:

Highlifeman21
04-16-2008, 06:47 PM
I don't hate Arroyo, I just think he's one of our better trading chips to get a LH SP, since we currently lack one.

Other teams dominate us with LH SP. It'd be nice to return the favor every now and then...

Cedric
04-16-2008, 06:48 PM
I don't think it's irrational that people would explore trading Arroyo for a power RH bat. Arroyo is advancing in years and like everyone else is declining a little with age. I wouldn't sell him cheap by any means. I would hope someone blows me away and then I would do it.

By no means do I "hate" the man because of a baseball business. I don't get that sentiment at all.

*BaseClogger*
04-16-2008, 06:56 PM
I also think there are too many "Posts of the Year" given out. Perhaps we should consult the Academy. That seems like a violation.

:notworthy

RedEye
04-16-2008, 10:48 PM
I don't think it's irrational that people would explore trading Arroyo for a power RH bat. Arroyo is advancing in years and like everyone else is declining a little with age. I wouldn't sell him cheap by any means. I would hope someone blows me away and then I would do it.

By no means do I "hate" the man because of a baseball business. I don't get that sentiment at all.

I don't think it is irrational to want to trade any player for the right return. Heck, if the Mets offered the Reds Johan Santana + cash for Jay Bruce, I'd strongly suggest they do it. However, the shallow pitching market that made Gil Meche and Ted Lilly multi-millionaires pretty much prohibits trading quality big league arms without a compelling reason to do so.

I do think it is a bit irrational to suggest that Arroyo is declining markedly in his performance. If you look at his peripheral stats (as JinAZ pointed out on the second post on this thread), there is a strong argument to be made that Arroyo is every bit the effective pitcher that he was when we got him... and that, to my mind, is still worth quite a bit to a pitching staff that otherwise features Aaron Harang, the Fogg, and a bunch of rookies.

Cedric
04-16-2008, 11:01 PM
I don't think it is irrational to want to trade any player for the right return. Heck, if the Mets offered the Reds Johan Santana + cash for Jay Bruce, I'd strongly suggest they do it. However, the shallow pitching market that made Gil Meche and Ted Lilly multi-millionaires pretty much prohibits trading quality big league arms without a compelling reason to do so.

I do think it is a bit irrational to suggest that Arroyo is declining markedly in his performance. If you look at his peripheral stats (as JinAZ pointed out on the second post on this thread), there is a strong argument to be made that Arroyo is every bit the effective pitcher that he was when we got him... and that, to my mind, is still worth quite a bit to a pitching staff that otherwise features Aaron Harang, the Fogg, and a bunch of rookies.

Arroyo relies on fooling people with arm angles and the break on his curve ball. That doesn't work as well the more people see you and he's been in the league a long time now. I don't think with his style of pitching he is getting unlucky breaks, I think it's his game now. Same as I thought Todd Coffey wasn't unlucky.

*BaseClogger*
04-16-2008, 11:24 PM
Arroyo relies on fooling people with arm angles and the break on his curve ball. That doesn't work as well the more people see you and he's been in the league a long time now. I don't think with his style of pitching he is getting unlucky breaks, I think it's his game now. Same as I thought Todd Coffey wasn't unlucky.

Except many of the same stats that said Todd Coffey has been unlucky also correctly predicted Arroyo's decline following 2006...

RedEye
04-17-2008, 12:40 AM
Arroyo relies on fooling people with arm angles and the break on his curve ball. That doesn't work as well the more people see you and he's been in the league a long time now. I don't think with his style of pitching he is getting unlucky breaks, I think it's his game now. Same as I thought Todd Coffey wasn't unlucky.

A lot of the game is based on luck and the performance of other players. You can think that it's something that Arroyo is or isn't doing, or that people have somehow "figured him out" more, but that would be willfully ignoring all of the other elements of baseball that he cannot control (fielding behind him, park dimensions, etc.)

I really hope that Wayne isn't valuing Arroyo how the majority of RedsZone seems to be right now.

jojo
04-17-2008, 02:33 AM
I also think there are too many "Posts of the Year" given out.

This has got to be the post of the year. :cool:

Tommyjohn25
04-18-2008, 07:55 PM
Not looking too good tonight. 25 balls, 26 strikes in the top of the 3rd inning. I'm not a "hater" by any means. But he has got to get it going quick or he will begin to wear on Reds fans pretty quickly IMO.

Tommyjohn25
04-18-2008, 07:59 PM
And he just hung an abslolute grapefruit to the future HOF Bill Hall. Yay.

Aronchis
04-18-2008, 08:01 PM
I am getting bad Danny Graves type feel from Arroyo. He is a small, wiry guy and the abuse he took under Narron may be coming home to roost.

Tony Cloninger
04-18-2008, 08:02 PM
He looks terrible.....Almost a fogg like performance.

reds44
04-18-2008, 08:04 PM
That was one of the worst pitches of all time that he threw to Bill Hall.

RedEye
04-18-2008, 09:53 PM
I agree, he's not looking too good. But I think we need to wait to see a more significant sample size before we make a verdict. I think he's earned it. Two or three more stinkers like tonight? Then I might be more willing to listen to claims that he has regressed.

cincyinco
04-18-2008, 10:11 PM
Pitchers can lose their stuff from time to time. He may just not have had his best stuff today. Harang hasn't had it lately either, at least not last game. It happens. Its not time to worry yet.

Cyclone792
04-18-2008, 10:16 PM
Arroyo just looked plain bad tonight. It didn't seem like he had any command whatsoever except for the meatballs he laid up there for Bill Hall. When Hall hit the broken bat foul ball 300 feet in the left field seats, a buddy and I commented that if he gets that same pitch again it'll end up in the bleachers. A few pitches later he got that same pitch, and it ended up in the bleachers.

I'd hate to invoke the name Narron here, but it's just one of those things that you never know. I don't know what's going on with Arroyo so far this season, but the Reds have enough money tied up in him that it'd be wise to try to figure it out.

TOBTTReds
04-18-2008, 10:32 PM
I'd hate to invoke the name Narron here, but it's just one of those things that you never know. I don't know what's going on with Arroyo so far this season, but the Reds have enough money tied up in him that it'd be wise to try to figure it out.

I dont know. There was a lot of talk that he was a "new thing" fluke in his first year around the NL. Got worse last year, and hopefully not, but it seems is getting worse this year. Maybe it isn't him. Maybe it is that the NL is on to him.

I think Ted Lilly is hitting an NL Sophomore Slump as well, similar to what Arroyo felt last year.

Cyclone792
04-18-2008, 10:33 PM
BTW, since I was out watching the game I didn't notice this at the time, but I just looked at the boxscore and saw that Arroyo threw 116 pitches tonight in only six frames.

Dusty Baker didn't do the Reds any favors tonight with that blunder.

Tommyjohn25
04-18-2008, 10:36 PM
BTW, since I was out watching the game I didn't notice this at the time, but I just looked at the boxscore and saw that Arroyo threw 116 pitches tonight in only six frames.

Dusty Baker didn't do the Reds any favors tonight with that blunder.

He didn't have much choice IMO. The bully has been taxed big time throughout the last few games.

mbgrayson
04-18-2008, 10:37 PM
I tell you, its those JTM commercials.....

Cyclone792
04-18-2008, 10:45 PM
I dont know. There was a lot of talk that he was a "new thing" fluke in his first year around the NL. Got worse last year, and hopefully not, but it seems is getting worse this year. Maybe it isn't him. Maybe it is that the NL is on to him.

I think Ted Lilly is hitting an NL Sophomore Slump as well, similar to what Arroyo felt last year.

I think it's quite a bit more than just that. He's now given up 6 home runs and 8 walks in only 21.1 innings, and he hasn't looked good at all since the season started. He's showing the same signs of what we saw last season after Narron ran him in the ground, except that before tonight he hadn't been run in the ground this season.

Arroyo's command tonight was just all over the place. Maybe it's a period of dead arm, maybe it's an injury, maybe it's something else. But something is going on that's beyond the league catching up to him, that I'm fairly certain about (though I won't discount that may have some smaller role).


He didn't have much choice IMO. The bully has been taxed big time throughout the last few games.

It's still no excuse, IMO. When a starting pitcher is throwing an excessive amount of pitches, the number one priority should be protecting that pitcher from possible damage. Even with a taxed bullpen, the Reds still have multiple guys down there who can share a load tonight, and then they're capable of getting a fresh arm up tomorrow from Louisville (Bill Bray, step on down).

The Reds have an ungodly amount of money tied up in Arroyo. He's one of their major assets; he's one of their major investments. If that investment turns sour due to anything, including injury, then the team's prospects of winning in the near future decrease more than most people are willing to admit.

I'll put it to people this way: would a taxed bullpen be a good enough reason for anybody to allow Baker to run up Cueto's pitch count tomorrow (total game plus individual innings)?

I'm guessing the answer to that is nope, not at all.

Tommyjohn25
04-18-2008, 11:27 PM
I think it's quite a bit more than just that. He's now given up 6 home runs and 8 walks in only 21.1 innings, and he hasn't looked good at all since the season started. He's showing the same signs of what we saw last season after Narron ran him in the ground, except that before tonight he hadn't been run in the ground this season.

Arroyo's command tonight was just all over the place. Maybe it's a period of dead arm, maybe it's an injury, maybe it's something else. But something is going on that's beyond the league catching up to him, that I'm fairly certain about (though I won't discount that may have some smaller role).



It's still no excuse, IMO. When a starting pitcher is throwing an excessive amount of pitches, the number one priority should be protecting that pitcher from possible damage. Even with a taxed bullpen, the Reds still have multiple guys down there who can share a load tonight, and then they're capable of getting a fresh arm up tomorrow from Louisville (Bill Bray, step on down).

The Reds have an ungodly amount of money tied up in Arroyo. He's one of their major assets; he's one of their major investments. If that investment turns sour due to anything, including injury, then the team's prospects of winning in the near future decrease more than most people are willing to admit.

I'll put it to people this way: would a taxed bullpen be a good enough reason for anybody to allow Baker to run up Cueto's pitch count tomorrow (total game plus individual innings)?

I'm guessing the answer to that is nope, not at all.

Nicely done. You swayed me, great points.


Oh. By the way. Happy Birthday. :)

RedEye
04-18-2008, 11:38 PM
I think it's quite a bit more than just that. He's now given up 6 home runs and 8 walks in only 21.1 innings, and he hasn't looked good at all since the season started. He's showing the same signs of what we saw last season after Narron ran him in the ground, except that before tonight he hadn't been run in the ground this season.

Arroyo's command tonight was just all over the place. Maybe it's a period of dead arm, maybe it's an injury, maybe it's something else. But something is going on that's beyond the league catching up to him, that I'm fairly certain about (though I won't discount that may have some smaller role).



I really hope you're wrong. I have a feeling that the Harang and Arroyo contracts may start cancelling each other out soon if this is the case. And that's not what we want.

Cedric
04-18-2008, 11:39 PM
I really hope you're wrong. I have a feeling that the Harang and Arroyo contracts may start cancelling each other out soon if this is the case. And that's not what we want.

So it's possible some of us just don't hate Arroyo's hair? :)

Falls City Beer
04-18-2008, 11:41 PM
He looks terrible.....Almost a fogg like performance.

I agree. Screw results, forget numbers. He looks bad. His delivery looks stilted and he honestly looks uncomfortable and frustrated. His pitches are not doing what he wants them to do.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2008, 11:41 PM
Cornrows....it's time. Oh, yes...it's time.

WVPacman
04-18-2008, 11:53 PM
I know alot will dissagree with me but I have to say it.Arroyo could be a very good pitcher shoot he was the first year he came here.I am really starting to think that the guy has more on his mind than baseball.IMO it seems like he cares more about music than baseball during these past two years.

Everytime I see him on tv he is either talking about music,singing,doing a concert or playing a guitar.Again I know alot of you will dissagree with me but I really think that is his real problem.

reds44
04-19-2008, 12:04 AM
I know alot will dissagree with me but I have to say it.Arroyo could be a very good pitcher shoot he was the first year he came here.I am really starting to think that the guy has more on his mind than baseball.IMO it seems like he cares more about music than baseball during these past two years.

Everytime I see him on tv he is either talking about music,singing,doing a concert or playing a guitar.Again I know alot of you will dissagree with me but I really think that is his real problem.
Eh, I don't think that is it. If you remember last year, he canceled one of his concerts because he was struggling. I'm pretty sure baseball is still his number 1.

I just don't think anybody respects his heater anymore. When he got in trouble in the first inning today, the Brewers were just serving his off speed stuff into right field. I think Bronson needs to throw his fastball more, and if he doesn't do it because he just doesn't have a servicable fastball, thank he could be in trouble.

LINEDRIVER
04-19-2008, 08:38 AM
I tell you, its those JTM commercials.....

Yep, those JTM commercials have already been run into the ground. Before too long, watching those commercials over and over and over and over again will seem like Chinese torture as we take in about 130 more TV games over the next 5 1/2 months.

David Ross, Bronson's favorite batterymate, will be back soon so perhaps he can get some concentration and execution out of Arroyo.

Highlifeman21
04-19-2008, 09:43 AM
Yep, those JTM commercials have already been run into the ground. Before too long, watching those commercials over and over and over and over again will seem like Chinese torture as we take in about 130 more TV games over the next 5 1/2 months.

David Ross, Bronson's favorite batterymate, will be back soon so perhaps he can get some concentration and execution out of Arroyo.

That's a great point.

Ross is Arroyo's personal catcher, so hopefully he can coax better results out of Bronson.

RedlegJake
04-19-2008, 09:54 AM
Ross might help. More fastballs might help. But 4 runs from the offense in the first 6 innings might help, too. Bronson kept the Reds in the game...that is if the offense could score anything. When you match Bronson up with Ben Sheets, though, 8 times out of 10 you're done. Sorry. Just the truth. Last night didn't bother me much - at least until after Arroyo and Sheets were both gone. Bases loaded, 8th, no outs. Bako, Hatte, Hopper/CP due up. I KNEW the Reds would not score. Told my wife. She hugged me to get the wild arm waving to stop and told me to settle down or I'd wake up our grand daughter sleeping in the next room. I also owe the cuss pot six quarters. The game was winnable right here. Any kind of hit from one of the three and 2 runs are plated, and it gets Kepp up to the plate. A real hitter and a chance. Then we'd have some hitters coming up. It was winnable. Bronson wasn't the problem. Hasn't been. He isn't pitching '06 style but he has pitched well enough WITH AN OFFENSE BEHIND HIM to keep this team in the game. Right now, only Sandy Koufax like outings would do that. Bronson ain't the #2 anymore. He's a #4 and he is pitching like it.

Highlifeman21
04-19-2008, 10:00 AM
Ross might help. More fastballs might help. But 4 runs from the offense in the first 6 innings might help, too. Bronson kept the Reds in the game...that is if the offense could score anything. When you match Bronson up with Ben Sheets, though, 8 times out of 10 you're done. Sorry. Just the truth. Last night didn't bother me much - at least until after Arroyo and Sheets were both gone. Bases loaded, 8th, no outs. Bako, Hatte, Hopper/CP due up. I KNEW the Reds would not score. Told my wife. She hugged me to get the wild arm waving to stop and told me to settle down or I'd wake up our grand daughter sleeping in the next room. I also owe the cuss pot six quarters. The game was winnable right here. Any kind of hit from one of the three and 2 runs are plated, and it gets Kepp up to the plate. A real hitter and a chance. Then we'd have some hitters coming up. It was winnable. Bronson wasn't the problem. Hasn't been. He isn't pitching '06 style but he has pitched well enough WITH AN OFFENSE BEHIND HIM to keep this team in the game. Right now, only Sandy Koufax like outings would do that. Bronson ain't the #2 anymore. He's a #4 and he is pitching like it.

Given that we might not see the Reds average 5 runs per game this year, asking for 4 from the offense within the first 6 IP of a game might be a hefty request.

RedlegJake
04-19-2008, 10:04 AM
Given that we might not see the Reds average 5 runs per game this year, asking for 4 from the offense within the first 6 IP of a game might be a hefty request.

Oh, I agree with that but that's not Bronson's fault. With this O he could wind up 0-20.