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View Full Version : Who would you have as the Reds' leadoff hitter?



AmarilloRed
04-17-2008, 01:07 AM
I bring this up because it is becoming increasingly clear that Patterson will not work as a lead-off man. Still, I would like someone to present a better alternative. Votto showed the ability last year, but he seems to have trouble showing plate discipline and taking walks this year. Hopper, Freel, Keppinger? I am going to do some more research on it tomorrow, and I hope the rest of you will do the same. Patterson clearly should not be a lead-off hitter much longer,; I just don't know if we have anyone better at this time.

Slyder
04-17-2008, 01:32 AM
Keppinger is one of those guys that just knows how to put the ball where no one is and would be my leadoff hitter until Hopper/Freel got hot and slide everyone down a spot and oh ya forget the crappy split up the lefties idea its not worked:

Keppinger SS (R)
Dunn LF (L)
Griffey RF (L)
Phillips 2b (R)
Votto 1b(L)
EdE 3b (R)
Freel/Hopper/Patterson CF
Insert Catcher here.

If Freel/Hopper got hot:
Hopper/Freel CF
Keppinger SS (better at RBI oppertunity than Hopper/Freel)
Dunn LF (L)
Griffey RF (L)
BPhillps 2b (R)
Votto 1b(L)
EdE 3b (R)
Insert Catcher here.

Patterson wouldnt last with our organizational depth. He might see some time in the 7th hole in the hopes someone gives us anything for him soon.

JWP
04-17-2008, 02:11 AM
]Patterson wouldnt last with our organizational depth. He might see some time in the 7th hole in the hopes someone gives us anything for him soon.

I wouldn't plan on Patterson getting traded this season.

757690
04-17-2008, 02:38 AM
I wouldn't plan on Patterson getting traded this season.

I agree. The Reds do not have a centerfielder of Patterson's talents anywhere near the majors. Dickerson is in AAA, but if he was in their plans, they never would have signed Patterson, he would be playing in the majors right now. Stubbs is the closest decent centerfield prospect, and he is in Dayton. That is a good two maybe three years away from the majors.
Szymanski is hitting well in AA, but he is 26 and that is kinda old for AA. He really is the only one with a shot at the majors and I doubt they would start him if they did bring him up.

Patterson will be the centerfielder for the Reds this year, and if he has a good year, he may be it for a while. He was rated the #2 best prospect in all of baseball just a few years ago. I would not give up on him just because he had a few bad games against his former team.

redlegsmustache
04-17-2008, 03:34 AM
I would have

Hopper (OF) / Freel CF/3B
Keppinger
Dunn
Griff
BP
votto
patterson (CF/3B yes patterson on 3rd) :)
C
P

DannyB
04-17-2008, 07:36 AM
I just hope Dusty wakes up to it soon.
Keppinger
Dunn
Phillips
Griffey
Encarnacion
Votto
Patterson
Catcher

TN Red Fan
04-17-2008, 08:25 AM
This is why I would have taken Lofton instead of Patterson for one year.

They could have used Lofton and Hopper in a platoon which would have satisfied Baker's need for speed at the top spot, and still have somebody who can get on base.

Hopper -- career OBP vs. lefties = .425
Lofton -- 3-year OBP vs. righties = .386

Given that they looked at Lofton, it boggles my mind that WK couldn't see this. I can't understand why people in baseball can't grasp the value of platoons.

ChatterRed
04-17-2008, 09:12 AM
Jay Bruce.

UK Reds Fan
04-17-2008, 09:21 AM
Honestly...you have to get OBP driven line-up.

Keppinger
Dunn
Griffey
Phillips
Votto
EE
Patterson
Bako

eastkyred
04-17-2008, 10:09 AM
Brandon Phillips
Hitting leadoff, he's not much different than Jimmy Rollins.

WildcatFan
04-17-2008, 10:56 AM
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Griffey
P

mlbfan30
04-17-2008, 11:58 AM
I still think Votto is a good choice.

I believe part of Votto's OBP struggles so far is caused by Baker saying he wants him to be more aggressive, but when combined with having no protection behind him, it seems like he feels he needs to hit. Votto is naturally a patient hitter and by hitting him 1st or 2nd, I think it'll improve his value to the team.

I would also bring up EE in the order to give him more protection also. Again, he's a patient hitter and would help by getting on base, instead of struggle by trying to bring runners home.

Keppinger would actually be a very good hitter deeper into the linup because he's able to make contact so often. He will not strike out in the critical situations and he's good enough to hit even when he gets bad pitches. These are normally good #2 qualities, but in this lineup it fits more like #6.

Switch Dunn and Griffey, so again getting on base will help the team more. By these guys getting on base in front of a slugger like BP, Griffey, and contact hitter like Kepp, more runs should score.

The problem is the higher OBP guys are lower in the lineup so they're forced to swing at pitches they probably wouldnt in order to drive them in.

Votto
EE
Dunn
BP
Griffey
Kepp
Patterson
Bako

smoke6
04-17-2008, 12:05 PM
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Keppinger
Griffey
P

Scratch Griffey and insert.......Keppinger:D

Jim Fazio
04-17-2008, 12:41 PM
JOSH HAMILTON !!

tommycash
04-17-2008, 01:21 PM
I like this one:
Votto
Phillips
Griffey
Dunn
Keppinger
Patterson
Edwin
C
P

DeadRedinCT
04-17-2008, 01:37 PM
my lineup:

Votto 1b
Keppinger SS
Dunn LF
Phillips 2B
Griffey RF
Encarnacion 3B
Patterson CF
Catcher
Pitcher

AmarilloRed
04-17-2008, 10:08 PM
OK, let's look at OBP. Bako leads the team with a .442 OBP, but I doubt his .351 BA is sustainable. Let's look at Dunn and Griffey: Dunn: .413 OBP and leads the team with 18 walks, Griffey: .379 OBP with 11 walks. Both are good, but teams are clearly walking both to get to Edwin. I doubt Freel or Hopper will get enough playing time. Votto has a .351 OBP and BA as he has taken no walks. I imagine his BA will go down, but his OBP might rise when he does start taking some walks. Now for the surprise: Edwin has a .235 BA, but a .371 OBP due to 11 walks. Keppinger: a .328 BA and .380 OBP. It would seem the best choices would be Keppinger or Votto; although you have to consider Edwin if his BA rises and he continues to show the ability to take a walk.

First: Keppinger
Second:Votto
Third: Edwin

JBChance
04-17-2008, 10:58 PM
If the choice is Keppinger or Votto, I take Kepp.

Votto seems to have more power. The beginning of the season doesn't really support that, but look at the last few games. If he heats up, you'll want him drivin' them to the dish.

Keppinger doesn't have the prototypical RBI-guy look. Although he has 2 more rbi's, he's had not quite double the plate appearances of Votto. Votto's just more of a slugger.

I guess the bag on Kepp is that he doesn't have the speed you look for in a lead-off guy. But, he is a hit fo avg. type of guy with a lot of singles. He gets on base at a decent clip.

Kingspoint
04-18-2008, 01:53 AM
Who would you have as the Reds' leadoff hitter?

HOPPER

TN Red Fan
04-18-2008, 09:20 AM
OK, let's look at OBP. Bako leads the team with a .442 OBP, but I doubt his .351 BA is sustainable. Let's look at Dunn and Griffey: Dunn: .413 OBP and leads the team with 18 walks, Griffey: .379 OBP with 11 walks. Both are good, but teams are clearly walking both to get to Edwin. I doubt Freel or Hopper will get enough playing time. Votto has a .351 OBP and BA as he has taken no walks. I imagine his BA will go down, but his OBP might rise when he does start taking some walks. Now for the surprise: Edwin has a .235 BA, but a .371 OBP due to 11 walks. Keppinger: a .328 BA and .380 OBP. It would seem the best choices would be Keppinger or Votto; although you have to consider Edwin if his BA rises and he continues to show the ability to take a walk.

First: Keppinger
Second:Votto
Third: Edwin

That's exactly how I'd do it.

Keppinger
Votto
Encarnacion
Dunn
Griffey
Phillips
Patterson
Bako

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 10:29 AM
I'd have Adam Dunn lead off. He's very patient at the plate, he draws a lot of walks, he's got great pop and at the top of the lineup those K's won't be inning killers.

I'm sure most people here will see Dunn and immediately ignore the suggestion....but if you were to think about it for a bit, you might see the legitamacy of the suggestion.

At the start of a game, you want to see if an opposing starting pitcher has his "good" stuff or not. So you want someone who will take some pitches that are borderline. Also on the plus side of having Adam leadoff is that a good portion of pitchers will be wary of throwing at the heart of the plate...thus leading them to a bad start to the game or them not getting in a groove in terms of finding the strike zone.

So, seriously...what would be the DOWNSIDE of having Adam lead off? Anybody?

Slyder
04-18-2008, 10:35 AM
I'd have Adam Dunn lead off. He's very patient at the plate, he draws a lot of walks, he's got great pop and at the top of the lineup those K's won't be inning killers.

I'm sure most people here will see Dunn and immediately ignore the suggestion....but if you were to think about it for a bit, you might see the legitamacy of the suggestion.

At the start of a game, you want to see if an opposing starting pitcher has his "good" stuff or not. So you want someone who will take some pitches that are borderline. Also on the plus side of having Adam leadoff is that a good portion of pitchers will be wary of throwing at the heart of the plate...thus leading them to a bad start to the game or them not getting in a groove in terms of finding the strike zone.

So, seriously...what would be the DOWNSIDE of having Adam lead off? Anybody?

Less chances for him to drive people in. Little protection behind him still unless you top load the lineup by hitting someone like Phillips behind him. Lots of solo shots. 2nds as high as I would like to see Dunn give him a few more opportunities with runners on.

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 10:52 AM
That's the one reply I expected. It would mean better odds of Dunn solo shots instead of multi-run shots. Seriously, go back and look at Dunn's history. He hits more solo shots than just about anybody.

As for who hits behind him...that's still Keppinger. I don't see pitchers pitching around Dunn to get to Keppinger. He's just too good with the stick.

In regards to Dunn with men on base, he's not a good contact hitter. He's either boom or bust. And if we continue to depend upon him to drive in our runs we'll be seeing repetitive LOB numbers like we've been seeing this year already.

The thing about a leadoff hitter that people have to remember is that he's only leading off the FIRST inning. So it's a matter of setting the tone of the game. So what are 3 likely options for the start of the game with Dunner up there?

1. Strikeout...does little harm as we've got nothing started offensively. Doesn't help, but doesn't hurt like it would with him batting cleanup and 2 are on base.

2. Walk...sure, it takes the bat out of his hands, but it accomplishes exactly what we want a leadoff hitter to do. Get on base for Kepp, Griff, Joey, Brandon, etc. All of whom are better HITTERS and would have a much better chance of knocking him around to score. And scoring is the bottom line regardless of what your preference is...obp, ops, slg, avg, owx, ays. :O)

3. Leadoff homer...can you think of a better start to a game? You get the starting pitcher doubting his stuff right from the outset. You give our young pitching staff a cushion to work with. And you boost the confidence of our entire lineup that this is gonna be a good day.

Sure there are other things that could happen, but those 3 are certainly pretty possible. Keppinger is a great hitter but what would you rather have...Kepp leading off with a single only to strand him? Or Adam leading off with a walk, only to have Kepp's single knock him around?

durl
04-18-2008, 11:22 AM
Here's a fun idea...

Dunn
Keppinger
Griffey
Phillips
Votto
Encarnacion
Baco
<pitcher>
Patterson

Dunn has high OBP but needs someone on base to take advantage of his 40HR. Putting a higher OBP batter at the end of the lineup would help that.

Discuss... :D

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 11:27 AM
Nice, but I still want to stay away from Brandon hitting fourth. It appears to me that it affects his approach at the plate. The connotations with being a "cleanup" hitter seems to make him want to swing for the fences instead of just trusting his swing. I think I like Joey in the 4 hole just so long as someone whispers in his ear that it's just a lineup and nobody expects him to lead the league in dingers. Just put the ball in play and good things will happen.

durl
04-18-2008, 11:35 AM
Nice, but I still want to stay away from Brandon hitting fourth. It appears to me that it affects his approach at the plate. The connotations with being a "cleanup" hitter seems to make him want to swing for the fences instead of just trusting his swing. I think I like Joey in the 4 hole just so long as someone whispers in his ear that it's just a lineup and nobody expects him to lead the league in dingers. Just put the ball in play and good things will happen.

I like the idea of Votto in the 4-spot as well. And you're right about Phillips' approach to hitting cleanup. I should have taken that into consideration.

I jsut hope Votto continues to hit well. This team can pull it together. There's a lot of season left.

TN Red Fan
04-18-2008, 11:43 AM
Dunn's OBP would drop if he had the heart of the order hitting behind him. He walks because, hitting 5th, people can afford to pitch around him.

Natty Redlocks
04-18-2008, 11:59 AM
Dunn's OBP would drop if he had the heart of the order hitting behind him. He walks because, hitting 5th, people can afford to pitch around him.

Yeah, that would really suck if he got pitches to hit for a change.

Slyder
04-18-2008, 12:26 PM
As for who hits behind him...that's still Keppinger. I don't see pitchers pitching around Dunn to get to Keppinger. He's just too good with the stick.



Hypothetical using your lineup say the4 8th hole hitter get gets a single and the pitcher bunts him to 2nd. You get your chance of Dunn or Keppinger. Id take Keppinger everytime. Kep's more likely to get a single that might score 1 run, but Dunn could put a "mistake" in the river. I play the odds and let Dunn swing at "my pitch" about 5 in out of the zone and let him walk.

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 12:29 PM
Dunn's OBP would drop if he had the heart of the order hitting behind him. He walks because, hitting 5th, people can afford to pitch around him.

That's fine with me. But it would also mean that he'd be seeing more pitches to SMACK too, right? But look, we're really just talking about the first inning here. And the way it would rattle the starting pitchers' psyche.

And you also have to admit that there's another reason he walks BESIDES being pitched around. He's got a very good eye and he's very patient at the plate. His biggest problem is that when he DOES swing he simply doesn't make good contact. And THAT is why he's not a prototypical cleanup hitter. His batting average practically assures him that he won't be a big RBI guy.

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 12:33 PM
Hypothetical using your lineup say the4 8th hole hitter get gets a single and the pitcher bunts him to 2nd. You get your chance of Dunn or Keppinger. Id take Keppinger everytime. Kep's more likely to get a single that might score 1 run, but Dunn could put a "mistake" in the river. I play the odds and let Dunn swing at "my pitch" about 5 in out of the zone and let him walk.

In that instance...yeah, they'd walk Dunner. No doubt. With a base open? Heck yeah. But again, how is that BAD for the Reds? Now you've got 2 men on and Keppinger coming to the plate. If we get Kepp to the plate with runners in scoring position on a consistant basis then he's going to be a solid RBI guy. He won't hit many longballs...but who cares. As long as the runs cross the plate I couldn't care less how it reads in the box scores. Do you?

Slyder
04-18-2008, 12:45 PM
In that instance...yeah, they'd walk Dunner. No doubt. With a base open? Heck yeah. But again, how is that BAD for the Reds? Now you've got 2 men on and Keppinger coming to the plate. If we get Kepp to the plate with runners in scoring position on a consistant basis then he's going to be a solid RBI guy. He won't hit many longballs...but who cares. As long as the runs cross the plate I couldn't care less how it reads in the box scores. Do you?

Youre not using all your weapons as effectively as you possibly could. By solid RBI guy you mean about 80 ya that could be Keppinger, Dunn seeing a ton of "unintentional-intentional" walks still gets 100 rbis. Give him some protection behind him like Keppinger gets from Griffey then Dunn would out produce Kep by a wide margin. Dunn's talent set allows him to do the most damage "heart" of the order (2-4) where he should have a real nice bat either ahead of, behind, or both. Batting him leadoff makes no sense except if we start the LaRussa lineup and put Freel/Kep/Hopper in the 9 hole.

Hondo
04-18-2008, 12:48 PM
Youre not using all your weapons as effectively as you possibly could. By solid RBI guy you mean about 80 ya that could be Keppinger, Dunn seeing a ton of "unintentional-intentional" walks still gets 100 rbis. Give him some protection behind him like Keppinger gets from Griffey then Dunn would out produce Kep by a wide margin.

That is hitting it right on the head...

Dunn gets no Pitches...

Batting Dunn in the 3 hole and Griffey 4 may fix it then Griffey is going to get a ton of walks...

Although I think Griffey will be more productive having no help behind him, unlike Adam Dunn

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 12:50 PM
Okay, then who do you put BEHIND Dunn then? It's been Edwin nearly all season. What do you think the lineup should be? Just curious.

I'm guessing Junior. If that's the case, then who's behind Junior? Because if all we do is swap Adam & Ken then all you'll change is having Junior get fewer pitches to hit...and he's the better hitter.

My point is that if you look at the way Adam is approaching his at bats you'll notice that he's very passive. Yeah, he's always been patient at the plate, but now it looks like he's LOOKING for the walk instead of a pitch to drive. So instead of worrying about a way to improve Dunn's production, instead worry about a way to maximize the REDS production. If teams are going to pitch around him...fine. Put him in a position where that helps the team instead of following that up with Edwin, Bako and the pitcher.

If nothing else, switching it around to where Adam ends up seeing more pitches will at the very least get him to change his approach at the plate and start to look to drive the ball again. Once he gets back in that mindset...re-arrange the line up again.

Slyder
04-18-2008, 01:36 PM
Okay, then who do you put BEHIND Dunn then? It's been Edwin nearly all season. What do you think the lineup should be? Just curious.

I'm guessing Junior. If that's the case, then who's behind Junior? Because if all we do is swap Adam & Ken then all you'll change is having Junior get fewer pitches to hit...and he's the better hitter.

My point is that if you look at the way Adam is approaching his at bats you'll notice that he's very passive. Yeah, he's always been patient at the plate, but now it looks like he's LOOKING for the walk instead of a pitch to drive. So instead of worrying about a way to improve Dunn's production, instead worry about a way to maximize the REDS production. If teams are going to pitch around him...fine. Put him in a position where that helps the team instead of following that up with Edwin, Bako and the pitcher.

If nothing else, switching it around to where Adam ends up seeing more pitches will at the very least get him to change his approach at the plate and start to look to drive the ball again. Once he gets back in that mindset...re-arrange the line up again.

I guess Phillips is chopped liver. You put Phillips behind Griffey. Yes that might affect Phillips' pitch selection but him hitting 5th and looking for something to drive (close pitches that Dunn may let go) to the gap rather than something to put into the seats may get him started again.

My Lineup:
Kepp/Freel/Hopper SS/CF
whoever doesnt hit 1 ss/cf
Dunn LF
Griffey RF
Phillips 2b
Votto 1b
EdE 3b
Catcher
Pitcher

Hondo
04-18-2008, 01:38 PM
Maybe we could get Jose Canseco out of retirement for a Right Handed Power Bat...

Slyder
04-18-2008, 01:41 PM
Maybe we could get Jose Canseco out of retirement for a Right Handed Power Bat...

He'd be no worse than Sosa idea. Canseco could play defense before he got big and cant now.

Hondo
04-18-2008, 01:58 PM
He'd be no worse than Sosa idea. Canseco could play defense before he got big and cant now.

I was joking... :rolleyes:

Brandon Inge is a guy that is available.

freestyle55
04-18-2008, 02:09 PM
That's the one reply I expected. It would mean better odds of Dunn solo shots instead of multi-run shots. Seriously, go back and look at Dunn's history. He hits more solo shots than just about anybody.

Actually, he's better than several major sluggers and right in line with many others...if you go back and look at his history...

HR's with men on base
Adam Dunn 107/240 - 44.6%

Other notable Reds
Ken Griffey 273/596 - 45.8%
Brandon Phillips 24/54 - 44.4%

Other notable sluggers
Ryan Howard 71/133 - 53.4%
Manny Ramirez 250/495 - 50.5%
Alex Rodriguez 254/522 - 48.7%
Albert Pujols 137/285 - 48.1%
Gary Sheffield 230/481 - 47.8%
Mark McGuire 277/583 - 47.5%
Sammy Sosa 283/609 - 46.5%
Miguel Cabrera 64/141 - 45.4%
Jim Thome 228/510 - 44.7%
Vladimir Guerrero 158/357 - 43.1%
Andrew Jones 153/368 - 41.6%
Barry Bonds 312/762 - 40.9%
Prince Fielder 31/81 - 38.3%
David Ortiz 102/267 - 38.2% - supposedly the most clutch player in baseball...


So with only 3 more of his 240 home runs with a man on base, he would be on par with Griffey and better than Cabrera
8 more and he's with Sheffield...
10 more he's with A-Rod...

People like to rag on Adam Dunn for hitting solo homeruns when the game is basically over...he doesn't do that nearly as much as people think...

Also, 48% of his home runs are in +/- 1 run situations...that goes to 65% when it's +/- 2 runs...only 20% are +/- 4 runs

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 02:23 PM
Thanks for posting that freestyle. I never really did the research on it but it certainly seems like the majority of his homers are non-impact bombs.

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 02:28 PM
I guess Phillips is chopped liver. You put Phillips behind Griffey. Yes that might affect Phillips' pitch selection but him hitting 5th and looking for something to drive (close pitches that Dunn may let go) to the gap rather than something to put into the seats may get him started again.

My Lineup:
Kepp/Freel/Hopper SS/CF
whoever doesnt hit 1 ss/cf
Dunn LF
Griffey RF
Phillips 2b
Votto 1b
EdE 3b
Catcher
Pitcher


I actually like that likeup. I'm just not sure about Freel or Hopper starting over Patterson right now. I don't see Patterson maintaining his production (it's already begun to tail off), but he does more things than either Freel or Hopper IMO. So if it was Patterson, I'd put him in the 6 hole and move Joey up to the 2 spot.

Prior to ST I was really high on Norris in the leadoff spot, but his inability to do much of anything beside bunt has turned me off from him somewhat. I still think he's a more valuable asset than Freel is though. Plus I think Freel will bring back more than Norris in a trade.

freestyle55
04-18-2008, 02:43 PM
That seems to be the prevailing thought of about half the people here as well as certain members of the media who perpetuate the myth...

Slyder
04-18-2008, 02:49 PM
I actually like that likeup. I'm just not sure about Freel or Hopper starting over Patterson right now. I don't see Patterson maintaining his production (it's already begun to tail off), but he does more things than either Freel or Hopper IMO. So if it was Patterson, I'd put him in the 6 hole and move Joey up to the 2 spot.

Prior to ST I was really high on Norris in the leadoff spot, but his inability to do much of anything beside bunt has turned me off from him somewhat. I still think he's a more valuable asset than Freel is though. Plus I think Freel will bring back more than Norris in a trade.

I thought I was being blasphemous by suggesting hitting 2 lefties b2b but you want 3 lefties and 4 of 5 hitters being LH. That will never work in cincinnati :D.

_Sir_Charles_
04-18-2008, 02:55 PM
Well, that whole lefty righty situation is overblown IMO. The only time that really comes into play is the late innings. And by that time you're dealing with pinch hitters anyway. So I don't look at the lefty/righty matchup when I do a lineup. Other than in regards to the starting pitcher. I'd probably design 2 basic lineups...one for righties & one for lefties.

In a perfect world we'd be able to alternate left/right but we simply can't with this roster and still put on a competitive team. So I say you just put out the best players and line them up in the best order for those players to succeed. Regardless of what side of the plate they're swinging from.

CWRed
04-18-2008, 06:01 PM
Keppinger is one of those guys that just knows how to put the ball where no one is and would be my leadoff hitter until Hopper/Freel got hot and slide everyone down a spot and oh ya forget the crappy split up the lefties idea its not worked:

Keppinger SS (R)
Dunn LF (L)
Griffey RF (L)
Phillips 2b (R)
Votto 1b(L)
EdE 3b (R)
Freel/Hopper/Patterson CF
Insert Catcher here.

If Freel/Hopper got hot:
Hopper/Freel CF
Keppinger SS (better at RBI oppertunity than Hopper/Freel)
Dunn LF (L)
Griffey RF (L)
BPhillps 2b (R)
Votto 1b(L)
EdE 3b (R)
Insert Catcher here.

Patterson wouldnt last with our organizational depth. He might see some time in the 7th hole in the hopes someone gives us anything for him soon.

Yes yes and yes. Finally someone with some sense! ;) Dunn should never bat lower than 4th. BP should not not be cleanup. And CP is not a leadoff hitter. Never has been. Never will be. And Votto would not be a bad leadoff hitter either although I'd rather see him farther down to drive in runs.

TN Red Fan
04-19-2008, 09:35 AM
Yeah, that would really suck if he got pitches to hit for a change.

How does it help the team if he's batting first with a lower OBP and a higher BA/SLG?

He needs to be in the heart of the order, batting him leadoff is ridiculous. He just needs a real hitter behind him.

TN Red Fan
04-19-2008, 09:40 AM
I thought I was being blasphemous by suggesting hitting 2 lefties b2b but you want 3 lefties and 4 of 5 hitters being LH. That will never work in cincinnati :D.

Adam Dunn is not a left-handed hitter.....


What I mean by that is that his splits aren't drastically different vs. right or vs. left.

.925 OPS vs. Right
.840 OPS vs. Left

Griffey can't hit lefties. He shouldn't even be in the line-up against them. But because Dunn hits righties pretty well, you can have them back to back and not worry too much about consecutive lefties.

FlyingPig
04-19-2008, 10:53 AM
Just put the pitcher in the leadoff spot. Get him out of the way early. The way it's going, Kepp is batting leadoff anyway..he just starts off with one out on the board most of the time.

:rolleyes:

Hondo
04-19-2008, 06:51 PM
Ok, so the team signs Cory Patterson? Ok.

Play Center and Lead Off? Ok

Well he started in Center and Led Off today against the Brewers and went O-fer...

The previous 2 games they had Norris Hopper Playing and Leading off?

I want to know what the logic behind signing this guy. He has a couple Homers and plays decent... 9 RBI.

Then Dusty sits him for 2 days? It just doens't make any sense? It is kinda like, the guy went 0-4 today, but no wonder. He hasn't started for 2 days. Got a Pinch hit AB.

It was like when Joe Votto had to share time with Hatte... Hes starting now and look at his production...

IF the Reds were going to sign Patterson to PLAY in Center? Why sit him for 2 days? It is just going to hurt his consistency ...

It just doens't make any sense to me.

ED44
04-19-2008, 06:58 PM
He is something like 1 for his last 25. That's more than likely the reason he sat 2 straight (1 was against a lefty and he hasn't played against lefties any). Also, a lot of talk of scouts there from the AL, which may mean they were trying to showcase Freel/Hopper in hopes of trading one to open a roster spot.

AmarilloRed
04-22-2008, 01:06 AM
Here is a very telling quote from Dusty Baker:

MORE COREY: Baker didn’t realize until Sunday that Patterson had been struggling so mightily on offense. He’s hitless in his last 21 at-bats, tying a career high. In his last 10 games, he’s 1-for-28.

“It didn’t seem like that because he’s not striking out. Most of the time when a guy is 0-for-something, he’s got a bunch of punch-outs in there,” Baker said.

Patterson has only struck out four times in 59 at-bats.

He’s one of the toughest players to fan in the league, with one strikeout in every 20 at-bats, Baker said.

“He’ll be all right,” Baker said. “He’ll be fine.”


In other words, get used to Corey Patterson as the lead-off man. Unless he suffers a career-ending injury, Dusty will have him hitting lead-off; no matter how terrible he is.

goreds2
04-22-2008, 05:01 AM
Here is a very telling quote from Dusty Baker:

MORE COREY: Baker didnt realize until Sunday that Patterson had been struggling so mightily on offense. Hes hitless in his last 21 at-bats, tying a career high. In his last 10 games, hes 1-for-28.

It didnt seem like that because hes not striking out. Most of the time when a guy is 0-for-something, hes got a bunch of punch-outs in there, Baker said.

Patterson has only struck out four times in 59 at-bats.

Hes one of the toughest players to fan in the league, with one strikeout in every 20 at-bats, Baker said.

Hell be all right, Baker said. Hell be fine.


In other words, get used to Corey Patterson as the lead-off man. Unless he suffers a career-ending injury, Dusty will have him hitting lead-off; no matter how terrible he is.

:thumbdown

I hope Freel or Hopper did not read that quote. :eek: