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View Full Version : Dusty Loses His Mind!!!



DannyB
04-17-2008, 02:59 PM
R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L
Cincinnati

N. Hopper cf
R. Freel 2b
K. Griffey Jr.
A. Dunn lf
J. Keppinger ss
E. Encarnacion 3b
J. Votto 1b
P. Bako c
E. Volquez p


Lets not make this a game thread

BigJohn
04-17-2008, 03:12 PM
makes sense to me! Can't be any worse!

goreds2
04-17-2008, 03:14 PM
Looks OK to me. My fingers are crossed.

Jefferson24
04-17-2008, 03:15 PM
I noticed that too. I hope it works though. At this point nothing else has been too effective so why not try it.

fugowitribe
04-17-2008, 03:17 PM
When does the make-up of lefties and righties actually come in to play? Not until late in the game with relievers. So why not try something to shake it up a little and try and get some runs in early. If we don't score early it will not matter late (according to the way the Cubs hit the ball last night.) Not to mention, this leaves a Righty in BP on the bench to counter any move Penella would make by being able to move freel or Kep just about anywhere on the field. I like it.

Sean_CaseyRules
04-17-2008, 03:22 PM
This lineup looks good to me. I totally agee with fugowithribe, the lineup has NOTHING to do with the pitching match-up until late in the game, but hopefully we will be up by enough that it won't really matter.

CySeymour
04-17-2008, 03:24 PM
Any idea how the wind is blowing in Wrigley today?

bgwilly31
04-17-2008, 04:02 PM
Its blowing in^^^

And i dont mind this lineup.

Im just happy he is smart enough to at least change.

jimbo
04-17-2008, 05:03 PM
There is absolutely no time or place where having both Hopper and Freel batting back-to-back at the top of the lineup is a good thing. Talk about giving the pitcher a ride on the easy train. These two come up and hack at everything they see so the pitcher doesn't have to work at all for his outs. The first inning Lilly had two outs after only 3 pitches. In the 5th here, Hopper and Freel made the first two outs after only 2 pitches.

I can live with Patterson leading off, as long as you have a guy like Keppinger batting second who will make the pitcher work, but Hopper and Freel should never see the top of the order.

And now that I'm venting about lack of patience at the plate, this team is just painful to watch at times. The Cubs may not score any runs in an inning, but their inning will at least last more than 3 minutes. This offense makes lousy pitchers look good because their lack of plate discipline will allow them easy innings and to work late into games. It isn't that hard, make the pitcher work for it and force the opposing team to get into their bullpen early.

Plate discipline, probably one of the most underrated and underutilized fundamental aspects of baseball.

HeatherC1212
04-17-2008, 05:17 PM
I don't know about the lineup but I think Joey Votto needs to play everyday. He's finally starting to hit and with the way we've been stranding guys on base lately, he just has to be in that lineup every day now to help drive in runs. Go Joey! :)

mlbfan30
04-17-2008, 05:43 PM
I would totally redo the lineup, but at the very least switching Votto and Patterson would be a good move

757690
04-17-2008, 07:26 PM
Just for the record, the main reason why you want your lineup to alternate lefty and righty is to throw off the rhythm of the pitcher. Every lefty pitcher will tell you that they would would rather face an all righty lineup than one that is lefty, righty, lefty, righty.
By forcing the pitcher to pitch to a different handed batter in each at bat, you force him to constantly switch his approach on every hitter, and make it more difficult for him to get into a rhythm. If he is facing all the same handed batters, he can concentrate on just one approach, and get into a better rhythm.

It kinda works the way Dusty did it today, two, then two, then two, but probably not as well. I think he was just frustrated and tried to do something different without having a string of lefties or righties in a row. Anyway, it worked today.

Handofdeath
04-17-2008, 07:31 PM
There is absolutely no time or place where having both Hopper and Freel batting back-to-back at the top of the lineup is a good thing. Talk about giving the pitcher a ride on the easy train. These two come up and hack at everything they see so the pitcher doesn't have to work at all for his outs. The first inning Lilly had two outs after only 3 pitches. In the 5th here, Hopper and Freel made the first two outs after only 2 pitches.

I can live with Patterson leading off, as long as you have a guy like Keppinger batting second who will make the pitcher work, but Hopper and Freel should never see the top of the order.

And now that I'm venting about lack of patience at the plate, this team is just painful to watch at times. The Cubs may not score any runs in an inning, but their inning will at least last more than 3 minutes. This offense makes lousy pitchers look good because their lack of plate discipline will allow them easy innings and to work late into games. It isn't that hard, make the pitcher work for it and force the opposing team to get into their bullpen early.

Plate discipline, probably one of the most underrated and underutilized fundamental aspects of baseball.

Notice who was on base when Jr. hit that homer today?

GoReds33
04-17-2008, 09:48 PM
The best part today was not having to see EE hit right after Dunn. I think it takes some pressure off Edwin, and hopefully he can start killing the ball again.

BLEEDS
04-17-2008, 10:47 PM
Notice who was on base when Jr. hit that homer today?

Got Lucky. They were a combined 1 for 7 with a walk at that point. BOTH times on base just happened to coincidentally be in the same inning.

If you are happy with 1 for 7 with a walk from your #1 and #2 - YOU TOO Can Manage the Reds!!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

jimbo
04-18-2008, 12:32 AM
Notice who was on base when Jr. hit that homer today?

Yeah, Hopper got on by an error and Freel got on because nobody covered first on his bunt.

They got on by fortune of circumstance and it had nothing to do with their on-base skills (or lack thereof), and it doesn't change the fact that they are both undisciplined hitters who have no business being at the top of the lineup........especially back-to-back.

Handofdeath
04-18-2008, 01:49 AM
Yeah, Hopper got on by an error and Freel got on because nobody covered first on his bunt.

They got on by fortune of circumstance and it had nothing to do with their on-base skills (or lack thereof), and it doesn't change the fact that they are both undisciplined hitters who have no business being at the top of the lineup........especially back-to-back.

I was being slightly facetious. BUT, it needs to be said before this season that Freel's career OBP was .358 and Hopper's was .379. Look at it anyway you want but those OBP's are pretty good.

ChatterRed
04-18-2008, 02:29 AM
I knew it was a great lineup. Look at the results! ;)

Kingspoint
04-18-2008, 02:35 AM
R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L
Cincinnati

N. Hopper cf
R. Freel 2b
K. Griffey Jr.
A. Dunn lf
J. Keppinger ss
E. Encarnacion 3b
J. Votto 1b
P. Bako c
E. Volquez p


Lets not make this a game thread


I like the lineup. It's about time he doesn't worry about left-right-left-etc. Put the players in a position where they'll be more successful. Two players who are more likely to have OBP at .350 this year at 1-2, and both with speed. Dunn up a notch with a player behind him who's going to put runners on 1st & 3rd with a single if they walk Dunn. And if they walk Dunn and Junior, Kepp will score Junior after Dunn moves Junior over into scoring position with a Walk. The only problem is there's no Phillips, but that's easily resolved by placing Phillips in the #2 hole. His OBP is good enough and he has 30SB speed, or Phillips bats 6th in place of Encarnacion and Freel plays some 3rd Base.

Kingspoint
04-18-2008, 02:36 AM
Yeah, Hopper got on by an error and Freel got on because nobody covered first on his bunt.



Speed does that to defenders. Hopper also had a walk, so he was on base at a .400-clip today. Hopper also gets hit by pitches quite often. The guy has a million ways to get on base, and he takes advantage of all of them.

BLEEDS
04-18-2008, 11:22 AM
I was being slightly facetious. BUT, it needs to be said before this season that Freel's career OBP was .358 and Hopper's was .379. Look at it anyway you want but those OBP's are pretty much an anamoly

Fixed it for ya...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

TN Red Fan
04-18-2008, 12:48 PM
Yeah, career numbers are an anomoly...:rolleyes:

IowaRed
04-18-2008, 01:08 PM
Yeah, career numbers are an anomoly...:rolleyes:


Patterson's apparently were

Handofdeath
04-18-2008, 01:16 PM
Fixed it for ya...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You mispelled anomaly.:laugh: so no you did not fix it.

But TN Red Fan is right, career numbers do not constitute an anomaly. An anomaly is Brady Anderson hitting 50 homers in 1996 or Norm Cash hitting .361 in 1961.

IowaRed
04-18-2008, 01:23 PM
Patterson's apparently were

I'll clarify, Baker looked at Patterson's career numbers and STILL felt like he was a good choice to bat leadoff

jimbo
04-18-2008, 01:39 PM
I was being slightly facetious. BUT, it needs to be said before this season that Freel's career OBP was .358 and Hopper's was .379. Look at it anyway you want but those OBP's are pretty good.

Freel's career OBP is decent, but inflated by a couple of good seasons in 04 and 05. It's on a very steady decline though. Last season he posted a .308.

I'll give you that Hopper's career OBP is decent, although a relatively small sample size. I can deal with him at the top, as long as someone like Keppinger is behind him, not Freel.

None of this though changes the fact that they are both undisciplined hitters. You're only helping the opposing pitcher by giving him 2 outs on only 3 pitches. Speed is overrated at the top of a lineup anyways, IMO. I'd rather have hitters who know how to work a count and can get on base batting in those top two spots.

Hondo
04-18-2008, 01:50 PM
I would rather have Carlos Reyes and Michael Young hitting #1 and #2 but it ain't going to happen

Kingspoint
04-18-2008, 04:26 PM
Freel's career OBP is decent, but inflated by a couple of good seasons in 04 and 05. It's on a very steady decline though. Last season he posted a .308.



I can't let someone write something that's not true.

You're saying that Freel's "inflated 2004 and 2005 seasons" taint his true OBP numbers. You're trying to tell everyone that it's not reasonable to expect him to get those numbers again because they were "just a couple of good seasons".

That couldn't be further from the truth.

Before 2004, he only had 159 AB's. Those were his rookie AB's where a player is not going to do as well, in general, as he will once he has a chance to get a few at-bats under his belt. 159 AB's is a few at-bats...1-1/2 months if you're playing full-time.

He's given a chance to play regularly or semi-regularly and he becomes the epitome of Mr. Consistency. You could pencil his number in every year for the next 3 years.

37 SB's, 11 CS, .271 AVG, .370 OBP, 58 BB's.

He had his first and only down year last year. Everything was messed up. I have no idea what it was. He was 31 years old. It could be that he peaked already and that he has begun his decline, but he's not on a "steady decline" as you say. He's had only one year of decline. All those injuries he had could have easily caught up with him. The guy almost died!!! I think that warrants one mulligan.

Patterson on the other hand, is not on a decline. He's as terrible as he's always been. He also is MR. Consistency, but in a bad way. You can pencil in for 2008 an OBP of .290 because he'll be swinging for the fence every time he gets up to the plate. If I have to have that guy swinging a bat, I want it to be at #8. I'd prefer that it come from the bench, though, and let Hopper lead off most games with Freel getting a couple of starts a week, also.

jimbo
04-18-2008, 04:56 PM
It could be that he peaked already and that he has begun his decline, but he's not on a "steady decline" as you say.

2005 - .371
2006 - .363
2007 - .308
2008 - .267 currently.

No matter how you want to characterize it, the numbers show he is on a decline. Three seasons, IMO, is enough of a sample size to go from.


He's given a chance to play regularly or semi-regularly and he becomes the epitome of Mr. Consistency. You could pencil his number in every year for the next 3 years.

That just sounds like a lot of assumption to me. How can you really say you can "pencil his number in" based on his numbers? I just don't see it, whether I'm looking at his numbers or actually watching him play. I like the guy, but I simply do not think he is a good lead-off or top of the order batter. And again, my dislike of yesterday's lineup wasn't so much who was leading off, but the fact that Hopper and Freel was 1-2. I don't like any kind of combination of Freel, Hopper, and Patterson batting 1-2.

I just wish that some of these guys could have taken notes on yesterdays game. Volquez got by on his stuff alone. His command was a little off, but his pitch count was so high because the Cubs hitters were patient and made him work for it. Put a Cubs uni on Volquez yesterday and he probably could have pitched a complete game against this Reds lineup. What pitcher wouldn't love getting the first two hitters of the game out on 3 pitches? Gets him immediately in a groove.

I agree with you on Patterson. I'd rather see him at the bottom of the order also, but like I said I can deal with him at the top as long as someone like Kepp is behind him. Why? Because he is hands down a better center fielder than Hopper and Freel and with Junior and Dunn in the outfield, having a good CF is a must.

Hey Meat
04-18-2008, 05:55 PM
R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L
Cincinnati

N. Hopper cf
R. Freel 2b
K. Griffey Jr.
A. Dunn lf
J. Keppinger ss
E. Encarnacion 3b
J. Votto 1b
P. Bako c
E. Volquez p


Lets not make this a game thread

I hope he is crazy more often.

BLEEDS
04-21-2008, 12:24 PM
But TN Red Fan is right, career numbers do not constitute an anomaly. An anomaly is Brady Anderson hitting 50 homers in 1996 or Norm Cash hitting .361 in 1961.


Freel's career OBP is decent, but inflated by a couple of good seasons in 04 and 05. It's on a very steady decline though. Last season he posted a .308.

I'll give you that Hopper's career OBP is decent, although a relatively small sample size. I can deal with him at the top, as long as someone like Keppinger is behind him, not Freel.

None of this though changes the fact that they are both undisciplined hitters. You're only helping the opposing pitcher by giving him 2 outs on only 3 pitches. Speed is overrated at the top of a lineup anyways, IMO. I'd rather have hitters who know how to work a count and can get on base batting in those top two spots.

Hopper's CAREER numbers are a whopping 346 AB's in the majors. 2006 and 2007 were a cruel joke on the "potential" of one Norris Hopper, the slappy-bunt-artist.

Freel is a case of a career minor-leaguer having a couple good years at his physical peak - 28-30 yrs old - then declining back to the norm. I won't even mention any of the rumors *cough* juice *cough* that might have also influenced that spike.

So yeah, 346 AB's in once case, and 3 years for two career minor leaguers, I'll call that an anamoly, however you want to spell it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

realreds1
04-21-2008, 05:22 PM
I won't even mention any of the rumors *cough* juice *cough* that might have also influenced that spike.


Eh? The only juice Ryan Freel knew about came in a fruity alcoholic concoction.