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Reds Fanatic
04-18-2008, 03:25 PM
I know those there is no game thread but I thought I would post the lineups here so everyone can see them. Hopper is starting again but other than that is back to the standard Dusty lineup;

From Trent:


Redlegs

Norris Hopper cf
Jeff Keppinger ss
Ken Griffey Jr. rf
Brandon Phillips 2b
Adam Dunn lf
Edwin Encarnacion 3b
Joey Votto 1b
Paul Bako c
Bronson Arroyo p
Beer Guys

Craig Counsell 2b
J.J. Hardy ss
Ryan Braun lf
Prince Fielder 1b
Corey Hart rf
Bill Hall 3b
Gabe Gross cf
Ben Sheets p
Jason Kendall c

*BaseClogger*
04-18-2008, 03:26 PM
First Phillips sits against a lefty, now Hopper starts against a righty. :rolleyes:

Yes, I'll always find something to complain about with the lineup...

WMR
04-18-2008, 03:26 PM
Boo

WMR
04-18-2008, 03:27 PM
Griffey and Dunn back-to-back was SO smart and refreshing. Of course that means it couldn't stay that way. :thumbdown

RedsManRick
04-18-2008, 03:28 PM
I've decided to stop commenting on my preferred lineups. I just wish I understood better what Dusty is thinking.

RedlegJake
04-18-2008, 03:32 PM
The Phillips is the cleanup hiter thing bugs me much more than CP or Hopper as the leadoff hitter. And Dunn in a spot where his walks and OBP are largely wasted.

Matt700wlw
04-18-2008, 03:34 PM
Griffey and Dunn back-to-back was SO smart and refreshing. Of course that means it couldn't stay that way. :thumbdown

I'm guessing that was yesterday.....I missed yesterday.

BRM
04-18-2008, 03:34 PM
Griffey and Dunn back-to-back was SO smart and refreshing. Of course that means it couldn't stay that way. :thumbdown

The LOOGY puts much fear into our hearts and minds.

RedsManRick
04-18-2008, 03:38 PM
The LOOGY puts much fear into our hearts and minds.

Exactly. If you're facing a righty, why not make that starter face Griffey-Dunn-Votto in succession, light him up in innings 1-5 and take the LOOGY out of the equation? It feels like one of those generic decision made to avoid blame rather than foster success.

BRM
04-18-2008, 03:40 PM
Exactly. If you're facing a righty, why not make that starter face Griffey-Dunn-Votto in succession, light him up in innings 1-5 and take the LOOGY out of the equation?

What if the Reds pitcher gets lit up too? Now you have a tight game in the 7th or 8th and the LOOGY can come in and dominate those three. Just a thought.

pedro
04-18-2008, 03:43 PM
I get the feeling that perhaps Hopper or Freel are being showcased.

Jay Bruce is going to be up by mid may IMO and one of those guys is going to have to go.

OnBaseMachine
04-18-2008, 03:43 PM
Patterson is a career .225/.244/.250 hitter against Ben Sheets in 40 atbats. Still, that's a huge defensive downgrade from Patterson to Hopper.

*BaseClogger*
04-18-2008, 03:45 PM
What if the Reds pitcher gets lit up too? Now you have a tight game in the 7th or 8th and the LOOGY can come in and dominate those three. Just a thought.

1. Dunn is still pretty good against lefties

2. If we actually had a platoon mate for Votto, we could PH for him

3. The 7th and 8th innings is usually when you see the other team's top setup guys. They are usually pretty good. I don't see it as that much of an advantage...

*BaseClogger*
04-18-2008, 03:47 PM
Patterson is a career .225/.244/.250 hitter against Ben Sheets in 40 atbats. Still, that's a huge defensive downgrade from Patterson to Hopper.

What hitter isn't historically worse against Ben Sheets? Filth. It's freakin' Corey Patterson. The only reason he is on this team is to play CF...

TRF
04-18-2008, 03:49 PM
First Phillips sits against a lefty, now Hopper starts against a righty. :rolleyes:

Yes, I'll always find something to complain about with the lineup...

BP needed a breather, just like EE did a few days earlier. seems to be working for him.

BRM
04-18-2008, 03:53 PM
1. Dunn is still pretty good against lefties

2. If we actually had a platoon mate for Votto, we could PH for him

3. The 7th and 8th innings is usually when you see the other team's top setup guys. They are usually pretty good. I don't see it as that much of an advantage...

I agree on all 3. I was just trying to put myself in Dusty's shoes and come up a good reason for splitting Junior and Dunn.

WMR
04-18-2008, 03:56 PM
I agree on all 3. I was just trying to put myself in Dusty's shoes and come up a good reason for splitting Junior and Dunn.

That's a very dangerous thing to do.

Try it one too many times and we might lose you for good. :eek:

BRM
04-18-2008, 03:58 PM
That's a very dangerous thing to do.

Try it one too many times and we might lose you for good. :eek:

:laugh:

I guess I should be more careful in the future.

*BaseClogger*
04-18-2008, 03:59 PM
BP needed a breather, just like EE did a few days earlier. seems to be working for him.

Why couldn't he sit the night before when Josh Fogg was pitching? That game was over when it started anyways...

RichRed
04-18-2008, 04:02 PM
What hitter isn't historically worse against Ben Sheets? Filth. It's freakin' Corey Patterson. The only reason he is on this team is to play CF...

Besides that, if you bench Patterson for every pitcher he's struggled against, he'll never be in the lineup (says his career .297 OBP).

redsmetz
04-18-2008, 04:06 PM
Patterson is a career .225/.244/.250 hitter against Ben Sheets in 40 atbats. Still, that's a huge defensive downgrade from Patterson to Hopper.

And Hopper i s 3 for 4 against Sheets with a walk. Granted a limited sample size, but that's what he's done thus far. That could change quickly, obviously.

BRM
04-18-2008, 04:08 PM
Small sample sizes rock!

Far East
04-18-2008, 04:14 PM
The Phillips is the cleanup hiter thing bugs me much more than CP or Hopper as the leadoff hitter. And Dunn in a spot where his walks and OBP are largely wasted.
Perhaps, but if Encarnacion and Votto continue to hit like they have recently, they'll drive him in>

PuffyPig
04-18-2008, 04:23 PM
Phillips sat against a lefty becuse he was slumping and needed the day off.

Shouse is the LOOGY for the Brewers. If you've ever seen him zip through Griffey and Dunn you'd separate them to.

And for those who think having Griffey/Dunn/Votto going back to back would guarantee a great game against Sheets.....

And I assume Hopper gets the start tonight against Sheets is because Patterson is also in a slump. Give him the day of and let him come back feesh against Suppan and Bush.

TOBTTReds
04-18-2008, 04:30 PM
Our two highest run outputs had Keppinger batting behind Dunn. In the first, we scored 12 runs, Phillips and Dunn both scored twice.

In the second game we scored 9. Keppinger hit behind Dunn and Griffey, who both scored once.

Let the OBP guys bat in front of the high BAVG guys...that is how they get driven in.

RedlegJake
04-18-2008, 04:32 PM
This is Ben Sheets. If he's on does it matter all that much who bats where? Scratch out a run or two, make him work as much as possible to inflate his pitch count and hope like heck your starter keeps you in the game until you can get to their pen.

TOBTTReds
04-18-2008, 04:33 PM
This is Ben Sheets. If he's on does it matter all that much who bats where? Scratch out a run or two, make him work as much as possible to inflate his pitch count and hope like heck your starter keeps you in the game until you can get to their pen.

Good point.

OnBaseMachine
04-18-2008, 06:33 PM
The Reds are 0-5 in series openers this season. Hopefully they can end that streak tonight...

klw
04-18-2008, 06:46 PM
Phillips sat against a lefty becuse he was slumping and needed the day off.

Shouse is the LOOGY for the Brewers. If you've ever seen him zip through Griffey and Dunn you'd separate them to.

.

The other side of the coin is that if you don't split up your best hitters then maybe you will be scoring more runs and actually leading the game late, thus eliminating their LOOGY having any effect. If you are up by 5 who cares about their LOOGY, it becomes all about yours.

oops see this was already argued on page 1 by RMR

RedsManRick
04-18-2008, 06:53 PM
Phillips sat against a lefty becuse he was slumping and needed the day off.

Shouse is the LOOGY for the Brewers. If you've ever seen him zip through Griffey and Dunn you'd separate them to.

Nope. I do my darndest to make sure the Reds had a lead before Shouse could come in and be a difference maker. Design your lineup to maximize the chance that Shouse is irrelevant. Otherwise you concede the advantage from the very start. Setting aside the "Does Dunn's skill set merit him batting 5th?" question for a second, let's just do simple math. The Reds are likely to get at least 2 at bats vR tonight, possible 3 or 4. The Reds will get somewhere between 0 and 2 vL. Why design a lineup to account for the smaller number of at bats? Shouldn't you design it to take advantage of the more frequent situation?

"Oh, you have a great LOOGY and a starting a tough righty? Well, we'll give more at bats to the .700 OPS vR guy and fewer to the .930 OPS vR guy just in case that lefty comes out of the pen later.... So there!"

Like bunting a runner over to 2nd, sometimes the act of preparing for a certain outcome increases it's possibility of occurring -- when another approach might very well get something even better.

OnBaseMachine
04-18-2008, 09:39 PM
This offense needs a RH bat badly. And I mean badly. Bases loaded with nobody out in the 8th inning against a guy that can't find the strikezone and who do the Reds send to the plate? Paul Bako and Scott Hatteberg. And of course both struckout.

sonny
04-18-2008, 10:03 PM
This offense needs a RH bat badly. And I mean badly. Bases loaded with nobody out in the 8th inning against a guy that can't find the strikezone and who do the Reds send to the plate? Paul Bako and Scott Hatteberg. And of course both struckout.

Which is why I'm shocked we did not take a flyer on someone like Wes Helms.

OnBaseMachine
04-18-2008, 10:11 PM
We desperately need a bench. Bottom 9, with the Reds down three, Valentin swings at ball four that bounced in front of the plate. Bako followed that up by swinging at ball four at his shoulders and then taking strike three down the middle. What a frustrating offense.

reds44
04-18-2008, 10:12 PM
We desperately need a bench. Bottom 9, with the Reds down three, Valentin swings at ball four that bounced in front of the plate. Bako followed that up by swinging at ball four at his shoulders and then taking strike three down the middle. What a frustrating offense.
There was a point in those two ABs, where I counted Gange throwing something like 7 consecutive balls. Bako and Javy kept swinging, and then Bako took stike 3 called.


Bases loaded with 0 outs in the 8th
Bases loaded with 1 out in the 9th.
2 runs total.

MississippiRed
04-18-2008, 10:14 PM
The Phillips is the cleanup hiter thing bugs me much more than CP or Hopper as the leadoff hitter. And Dunn in a spot where his walks and OBP are largely wasted.

As you said.

*BaseClogger*
04-18-2008, 10:14 PM
hey, Norris Hopper has had success against Ben Sheets... ;)

Spring~Fields
04-18-2008, 11:06 PM
hey, Norris Hopper has had success against Ben Sheets... ;)

Thanks for the reminder. ;)

Falls City Beer
04-18-2008, 11:12 PM
As the perpetual pessimist, I have to say, this team is making me feel like walking into the Atlantic with my pockets full of bricks.

Spring~Fields
04-18-2008, 11:15 PM
As the perpetual pessimist, I have to say, this team is making me feel like walking into the Atlantic with my pockets full of bricks.

Yes a shark bite would feel mericful right now. :(

redsrule2500
04-19-2008, 12:35 AM
Griffey batting third is getting ridiculous....

reds44
04-19-2008, 12:38 AM
Griffey batting third is getting ridiculous....
It is?

.283/.371/.483
3 HR (2nd to Patterson
11 RBI (lead team)

I think you need to lay off Griffey. He's been the Reds best hitter so far this season.

membengal
04-19-2008, 11:16 AM
We desperately need a bench. Bottom 9, with the Reds down three, Valentin swings at ball four that bounced in front of the plate. Bako followed that up by swinging at ball four at his shoulders and then taking strike three down the middle. What a frustrating offense.

Well, it's not like there were not a bunch of people on this board clamoring for RH help for the bench during the off-season. I hope that WK finally finds a way to address this at some point, because it is a ridiculously glaring, obvious, and, frankly, fixable issue.

paintmered
04-19-2008, 11:20 AM
I'm such a killjoy. This looks like a game thread, acts like a game thread and sounds like a game thread.