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Edskin
04-18-2008, 11:12 PM
Here we are again. Locked in a time-trap that began immediately following the final out of the one-game playoff against the Mets 9 years ago.

:)

That was just a joke, sort of.

I'm honestly not panicking quite yet, but I'd be lying if I didn't have a gut feeling that this trend will continue.

My big fear right now is that the Reds have simply become synonomous with losing. My fear is that a losing culture has been widely developed, and that even the best of intentions from the FO may not do the trick.

I believe in the "losing culture" stuff. I always have, in every sport. Do I think it the cycle can be broken? Of course. But once a team hits that level, it becomes significantly more difficult to buck the trend.

Here's two (small) examples of how I define losing culutre:

1. For the past two years, Bronson Arroyo has been pretty good for us, pitching for lousy teams. He has been asked to be the #1-2 starter, and he has peformed pretty well-- not top of rotation stuff by any means, but decent enough.

Now, with our rotation looking much better with Cueto, Volquez, and the young guys on the farm, we really don't even need Arroyo to be what we were asking him to be the past two seasons. Now, if he was simply a serviceable #3-4 starter, that would be just fine.

But now, all of sudden, he's pitching like total garbage. If this continues, in many ways, he will offset the good that Cueto brings to the table. Yes, you add a highly intruiging and talented starter, but one of your formerly decent starters is now horrid. Wheels spinning.

2. Paul Bako has been one of our better hitters thus far. We all KNOW that it won't last, but still, for now, he was swinging a good bat. So, tonight, he gets two VERY big at bats late in the game, and he simply can't find a way to extend his hot streak in either case. 2 K's. Rally over.

Neither of these things individually amount to a whole lot in the grand scheme, but when these types of things happen over and over and over again, it becomes very hard to break the cycle of losing.

If everytime a young player starts to excel, another player declines, it becomes a wash of sorts.

Now, no matter what, I do like the direction of the team right now. I like the fact that for the first time in years we have a really nice core of young players that are worth watching. If Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Bailey, Volquez, Roeinicke, etc. all develop into their ceiling, then the Reds will eventually be good and there will be too much talent for the even the losing culture to bring down.

However, that's still a pretty big "if."

And along the way, it sure would be nice to see the Reds win. And by win, I mean making a run at the post-season. Heck, it's been 9 years since we had a legit shot, I'd say we're due.

I'm far from quitting on the year, but as a fan who connects and identifies with his team, I am already frustrated. I'm not thrilled with the 7-10, and while I could see us pulling out of this and getting on a hot streak, I could just as easily see us at 14-20, and then 21-30, and then 28-40, and then the season will be over.

Let me put it this way....I don't think there's a whole bunch the FO can do in terms of improving the roster for this season. Getting Fogg out of there will be nice, and there are always some tweaks that might help, but ultimately, IMO, the pieces are there this season for the Reds to at least stay in contention.

Michael Wilbon once said, "first you win, and then you get good."

I think the Reds are at that point. It's time to start finding ways to win. It's time to break the cycle.

On a more positive note......Go Cavs tomorrow and beyond! Make Stevenson, Arenas, and the Wiz eat their words!!! :)

George Anderson
04-18-2008, 11:23 PM
I am frustrated to, but I like to look at the bright side of things and I am confident BC will not tolerate losing, which is something we couldn't say about the previous owner. I just wonder how long it will take him to right the ship.

Spring~Fields
04-18-2008, 11:24 PM
Pretty soon this negative synergy will effect Cueto and Volquez and that will be sad because it is unnecessary.

Edskin
04-18-2008, 11:26 PM
Pretty soon this negative synergy will effect Cueto and Volquez and that will be sad because it is unessary.

By far my biggest fear.

Spring~Fields
04-18-2008, 11:31 PM
By far my biggest fear.

Mine too, I think that we are already seeing the start of its effects via Harang, Arroyo, and Volquez. That will hurt and cause latent effects if it hits Cueto and Volquez.

reds44
04-18-2008, 11:35 PM
Mine too, I think that we are already seeing the start of its effects via Harang, Arroyo, and Volquez. That will hurt and cause latent effects if it hits Cueto and Volquez.
They are the only ones that can change it, especially Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, etc. They are the future of the organization. It is in their hands.

Edskin
04-18-2008, 11:39 PM
Mine too, I think that we are already seeing the start of its effects via Harang, Arroyo, and Volquez. That will hurt and cause latent effects if it hits Cueto and Volquez.

Totally agree. Take tomorrow for example:

Fans are frustrated already, players are pressing already, many veterans are struggling, and there is a "here we go again" feeling.

So, Cueto takes the mound tomorrow with more pressure than normal. It's like because the vets aren't getting it done, we have to see if the kid can pull us out of the rut.

I think it is MUCH better for Cueto and the other youngsters if we were already winning a bit and they could kind of "slide" into their roles. Instead, everything they do gets magnified because desperation is slowly sinking in.

I don't think that's good for them at all. Not one bit. I've seen it happen to MANY young Redskins players over the years-- players I truly believe would have had better careers had the atmosphere been better when they were developing. I think we have a few truly special talents in the system and I do not want to see anything derail them.

Edskin
04-18-2008, 11:41 PM
They are the only ones that can change it, especially Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, etc. They are the future of the organization. It is in their hands.

I agree with this as well, but it sure would be made easier if some of the veterans were doing their jobs. Like I said, all we need Arroyo to do is be what he's been the past two seasons. Instead, he's totally imploding. Throw us a bone here baseball Gods! :)

Falls City Beer
04-18-2008, 11:43 PM
Don't look to Castellini for a winner.

reds44
04-18-2008, 11:49 PM
I agree with this as well, but it sure would be made easier if some of the veterans were doing their jobs. Like I said, all we need Arroyo to do is be what he's been the past two seasons. Instead, he's totally imploding. Throw us a bone here baseball Gods! :)
Of course it does. I'm not really worried about the nerves of Cueto, Volquez, Votto, or Bruce though. All 4 seem like guys who step up to the challenge.

A gem by Cueto tomorrow could shift momentum for the Reds. A lot to ask of a kid, but certainly not impossible.

Spring~Fields
04-18-2008, 11:55 PM
Totally agree. Take tomorrow for example:

Fans are frustrated already, players are pressing already, many veterans are struggling, and there is a "here we go again" feeling.


True, already spread to us and our game threads, just an example. Phillips already admitted he was trying to do too much, there are other examples but we don't need me to fill the board with clutter. "here we go again" becomes a self-fulfilling prohecy and mind set.



So, Cueto takes the mound tomorrow with more pressure than normal. It's like because the vets aren't getting it done, we have to see if the kid can pull us out of the rut.

He and the others could be in danger of trying to be too fine, trying too hard, maybe over throwing, change a little something etc.

Volquez was having problems yesterday. The pitchers already know that they might not get run support so they might be trying to be too fine.



I think it is MUCH better for Cueto and the other youngsters if we were already winning a bit and they could kind of "slide" into their roles.

Yes during positive team synergy. Where they can focus and stay within themselves, pitch the way that brought them to this level and progress. Hopefully Cordero will mentor Volquez and Cueto through this period.




I don't think that's good for them at all. Not one bit. I've seen it happen to MANY young Redskins players over the years-- players I truly believe would have had better careers had the atmosphere been better when they were developing. I think we have a few truly special talents in the system and I do not want to see anything derail them.

That is the latent effects that I am afraid of. They are pressured, rushed, their performce suffers then they get labeled and one thing leads to another and they never reach their potential.

You're saying it better than I am.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2008, 12:05 AM
They are the only ones that can change it, especially Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Bruce, Phillips, Encarnacion, etc. They are the future of the organization. It is in their hands.

It is imperative that they do inspite of management or the overall team makeup at this time. They have to overcome the barriers in front of them and stay the course without being effected by the negative events.

WVRedsFan
04-19-2008, 12:14 AM
I wouldn't mind this so much if it wasn't the same hymn, different verse.

It's like a scripted professional wrestling match. Either our starter goes out and gets killed in the first couple of innings (Fogg, Arroyo) or our starter pitches well and the team can't hit the ball if it was the size of a pumpkin. The result if 10 losses out of 17 games.

Tonight, the Reds got 6 hits. Since there was a right hander on the mound that Patterson couldn't handle, Dusty was forced to play Hopper in center. Hopper seems to have lost his hitting eye and the result was predictible. Our main guys all bat left and there is seemingly no alternative. I watched most of the game, but listened to the radio for awhile when I got bored with ground outs to second base, and Marty and Jeff both said the same thing. the lack of right-handed hitting on this team is ridiculous. If you have your left fielder and right fielder--your main power guys--batting left, why do you go out and get a CF who also bats left? If the future is Votto, a lefty, at first, why do you pick up Hatteberg's option, who is also a left handed batter? Outside of Griffey and Dunn (and maybe Phillips and Votto), the lineup is punchless. And yet you stand pat on offense in order to stock up pitching to go along with your ace (Harang) who seems very prone to the long ball these days, and Arroyo, who simply isn't pitching well and giving up a lot of, you guessed it, home runs. Hmmm.

The culture of losing is one of those psychological things that breeds upon itself. Pittsburgh hasn't won in eons and we are right behind them. Ten yars of losing breeds more losing and we are at eight.

Gang, this is a very poorly constructed team. The individuals all seem to have talent , but they don't mesh together well. Sad to say, but it might take a few more years (more than 4) to straighten it out. BTW, Jay Bruce is a lefty, too. Scary.

And yet, we sit only 7-10. We hired a big name manager and then didn't give him the tools to massage this team into a winner. It will come. I hope. Someday.

WMR
04-19-2008, 12:17 AM
I wouldn't mind this so much if it wasn't the same hymn, different verse.

It's like a scripted professional wrestling match. Either our starter goes out and gets killed in the first couple of innings (Fogg, Arroyo) or our starter pitches well and the team can't hit the ball if it was the size of a pumpkin. The result if 10 losses out of 17 games.

Tonight, the Reds got 6 hits. Since there was a lefty on the mound, Dusty was forced to play Hopper in center. Hopper seems to have lost his hitting eye and the result was predictible. Our main guys all bat left and there is seemingly no alternative. I watched most of the game, but listened to the radio for awhile when I got bored with ground outs to second base, and Marty and Jeff both said the same thing. the lack of right-handed hitting on this team is ridiculous. If you have your left fielder and right fielder--your main power guys--batting left, why do you go out and get a CF who also bats left? If the future is Votto, a lefty, at first, why do you pick up Hatteberg's option, who is also a left handed batter? Outside of Griffey and Dunn (and maybe Phillips and Votto), the lineup is punchless. And yet you stand pat on offense in order to stock up pitching to go along with your ace (Harang) who seems very prone to the long ball these days, and Arroyo, who simply isn't pitching well and giving up a lot of, you guessed it, home runs. Hmmm.

The culture of losing is one of those psychological things that breeds upon itself. Pittsburgh hasn't won in eons and we are right behind them. Ten yars of losing breeds more losing and we are at eight.

Gang, this is a very poorly constructed team. The individuals all seem to have talent , but they don't mesh together well. Sad to say, but it might take a few more years (more than 4) to straighten it out. BTW, Jay Bruce is a lefty, too. Scary.

And yet, we sit only 7-10. We hired a big name manager and then didn't give him the tools to massage this team into a winner. It will come. I hope. Someday.

Sheets is a righty, WV.

WVRedsFan
04-19-2008, 12:22 AM
Sheets is a righty, WV.

Too late. I fixed it. Patterson can't hit Sheets, but supposedly Hopper could. Small sample size strikes again.

My point is the same. The offense needs an overhaul. I think you would agree.

WMR
04-19-2008, 12:24 AM
Oh yeah I do. Wholeheartedly.

Going into this season with the redundancy of Freel and Hopper, Hatteberg and Votto, along with the suckitude of Castro borders on criminal for a General Manager.

cincrazy
04-19-2008, 12:25 AM
Don't look to Castellini for a winner.

What brings you to that conclusion?

reds44
04-19-2008, 12:29 AM
Too late. I fixed it. Patterson can't hit Sheets, but supposedly Hopper could. Small sample size strikes again.

My point is the same. The offense needs an overhaul. I think you would agree.
Patterson can't hit anybody right now.

redsrule2500
04-19-2008, 12:29 AM
I am frustrated to, but I like to look at the bright side of things and I am confident BC will not tolerate losing, which is something we couldn't say about the previous owner. I just wonder how long it will take him to right the ship.

At some point he has to give up and just take the profits from the team. You can't just keep throwing stuff into winning forever. That's what scares me the most - The FO is actually attempting to win and spend more $$$...but we still can't.

Spring~Fields
04-19-2008, 12:32 AM
My mistake please delete.

WVRedsFan
04-19-2008, 12:33 AM
Oh yeah I do. Wholeheartedly.

Going into this season with the redundancy of Freel and Hopper, Hatteberg and Votto, along with the suckitude of Castro borders on criminal for a General Manager.

Since Wayne arrived, the problem has been pitching. He concentrated on that part of the game and it all came up snake eyes. He plucked Hatt and it was a good acquisition, but Scott is getting older. He got Conine to bat right when a lefty was on the mound, but traded him off and got Cantu. Apparently Cantu didn't impress, but he didn't replace him, picked up Hatt's option and now he has no platoon. Strange (btw, I think Votto will do just fine against leftys in time).

Believe it or not, the outfield is more of a concern than that situation. IF and WHEN Dunn gets his groove, I won't be worried about left field. Griffey will be OK. But center field. As much as we all admire Corey's defense, he's already coming down to earth at the plate. And batting him leadoff is ludicrous. And he makes up an all lefty outfield.

I won't even mention the catchers.

As I've said for years, your pitcher better pitch daggone good to make up for a loss of offense. It hasn't been good enough.

redsrule2500
04-19-2008, 12:38 AM
OKAY HERE'S AN HONEST ATTEMPT AT THE PROBLEM BY ME:

I think that the "losing culture" you talk about since the 1999 1-game playoff could be placed on one single player in the Reds clubhouse: Ken Griffey Jr. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or that he's a bad player - but he takes a certain focus off the TEAM aspect of the game. His consistant batting 3rd for instance - everyone is too scared to move him from his guaranteed three hole. He could be bringing a certain aspect to the clubhouse that we don't see - not to mention dragging in tons of money.

Have you noticed that Griff has yet to be on a very good ballclub? Seattle started owning up the AL WEST once he left - and we went down the sewer after our best season in recent history.

Just a theory.

*prepares to be bashed*

Red in Chicago
04-19-2008, 01:09 AM
Patterson can't hit anybody right now.

Should this really be a surprise to anyone?

*BaseClogger*
04-19-2008, 01:11 AM
OKAY HERE'S AN HONEST ATTEMPT AT THE PROBLEM BY ME:

I think that the "losing culture" you talk about since the 1999 1-game playoff could be placed on one single player in the Reds clubhouse: Ken Griffey Jr. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or that he's a bad player - but he takes a certain focus off the TEAM aspect of the game. His consistant batting 3rd for instance - everyone is too scared to move him from his guaranteed three hole. He could be bringing a certain aspect to the clubhouse that we don't see - not to mention dragging in tons of money.

Have you noticed that Griff has yet to be on a very good ballclub? Seattle started owning up the AL WEST once he left - and we went down the sewer after our best season in recent history.

Just a theory.

*prepares to be bashed*

:confused:

Spring~Fields
04-19-2008, 01:13 AM
Should this really be a surprise to anyone?

I think that the obvious is what frustrates us sometimes.

In this case it appears that Krivsky and Dusty are or were surprised and that is what dogs me. Maybe they just wanted him for his defense, in that case I would have thought that he would hitting down in the order. :confused:

reds44
04-19-2008, 01:13 AM
OKAY HERE'S AN HONEST ATTEMPT AT THE PROBLEM BY ME:

I think that the "losing culture" you talk about since the 1999 1-game playoff could be placed on one single player in the Reds clubhouse: Ken Griffey Jr. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or that he's a bad player - but he takes a certain focus off the TEAM aspect of the game. His consistant batting 3rd for instance - everyone is too scared to move him from his guaranteed three hole. He could be bringing a certain aspect to the clubhouse that we don't see - not to mention dragging in tons of money.

Have you noticed that Griff has yet to be on a very good ballclub? Seattle started owning up the AL WEST once he left - and we went down the sewer after our best season in recent history.

Just a theory.

*prepares to be bashed*
What exactly do you have against Ken Griffey Jr.?

WVRedsFan
04-19-2008, 01:15 AM
OKAY HERE'S AN HONEST ATTEMPT AT THE PROBLEM BY ME:

I think that the "losing culture" you talk about since the 1999 1-game playoff could be placed on one single player in the Reds clubhouse: Ken Griffey Jr. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or that he's a bad player - but he takes a certain focus off the TEAM aspect of the game. His consistant batting 3rd for instance - everyone is too scared to move him from his guaranteed three hole. He could be bringing a certain aspect to the clubhouse that we don't see - not to mention dragging in tons of money.

Have you noticed that Griff has yet to be on a very good ballclub? Seattle started owning up the AL WEST once he left - and we went down the sewer after our best season in recent history.

Just a theory.

*prepares to be bashed*

No bashing, RR. It just makes no sense. And we're talking offense here.

In Junior's first season (in which he drove in 118 runs and scored 100) the Reds scored 825 runs. That was in 2000, and the Reds haven't scored that many runs since. In fact, the following year when he was injured, he only drove in 65 runs and scored only 57. Add that to the 2000 total and the Reds would have scored enough runs to to win 9 more games, given 100 RBI's.

From 2002-2004, Junior stayed injured and he only drove in 23, 26, and 60 runs and the Reds averaged about 4 runs a game while when he was playing every day, the Reds averaged closer to 5. In the 2005 season when he drove in 92 runs, the Reds scored the most runs since 2000 at 820. You can make a great argument that the offense is driven by Ken Griffey, Jr. When he's healthy and on his game, the Reds score runs. When he's not, uh oh.

The problem during these years was a deteriorating pitching staff. The Reds allowed 765 runs in 2000, and haven't been any better since. So, alousy pitching staff masked the value of Junior. In 2003 when Junior played little and only drove in 26 runs, the Reds scored only 694 runs and allowed 818! Add the 74 runs Junior might have accounted or and the Reds score 768 runs which would have made the run differential only -50 runs. The acutal run differential was a whopping 124!

No, this team has a lot more to do with balance than KGJ. Once upon a time we had a team that could score 800 runs and give up only 765 (2000) and last year we scored nearly as many (thanks to his 93 RBI) but gave up 853. That's an average score of 4.83 - 5.27.

Junior has little to do with any of this except for his absence.

redsrule2500
04-19-2008, 01:41 AM
I'm not blaming Junior's PERFORMANCE on the field. I'm more talking about clubhouse effect and the "losing mentality" that the OP was mentioning. I know he's a good player and I really like Jr. too. I loved Griffey since I was young, he was by far my favorite player not on the Reds...had posters of him and stuff on my door when he was in Seattle. I have nothing against Griff - I just think that he could be part of the reason for the "losing mentality" of the team in recent years.

*BaseClogger*
04-19-2008, 01:50 AM
I'm not blaming Junior's PERFORMANCE on the field. I'm more talking about clubhouse effect and the "losing mentality" that the OP was mentioning. I know he's a good player and I really like Jr. too. I loved Griffey since I was young, he was by far my favorite player not on the Reds...had posters of him and stuff on my door when he was in Seattle. I have nothing against Griff - I just think that he could be part of the reason for the "losing mentality" of the team in recent years.

Why? What is he doing that is contributing to the losing mentality?

redsrule2500
04-19-2008, 01:55 AM
Why? What is he doing that is contributing to the losing mentality?

Did you read my original post? He brings superstar status to the team - but without superstar performance. He is constantly being praised for every homerun just based on his previous performance, has his own sign about career knocks, can't be lifted from his #3 hole.

Just stuff like that. I don't know anything for sure, but it's just one theory that I hold onto. His elitist status could hold some problems for the Reds clubhouse and performance. Again, just a theory.

OnBaseMachine
04-19-2008, 02:07 AM
Yeah I'm sure the sign that hangs in CF with Griffey's career homerun total is the reason why the Reds haven't won since 2000. Yep, that's the reason. Take that sign down and our offense will start hitting and the pitching and defense will improve.

Here's a theory for ya - you don't like Griffey and it's the popular thing to blame him and Dunn for everything.

Aronchis
04-19-2008, 04:40 AM
2006 may have been the "99" of the Reds recent past. They got better pitching the last month than they should have gotten with the cobble of arms they had but the offense imploded(with Dunn and EE's collapse fueling things). They should have won 85-86 games and made the playoffs.

If the Reds are to win now, they will have to earn it.

Highlifeman21
04-19-2008, 08:06 AM
Don't look to Castellini for a winner.

Or Krivsky, for that matter.

I keep waiting to start to see moves that are stamped by Jocketty.

Hope concerning the Reds returned to me when Jocketty came on board, but so far it's been false hope. Maybe it'll turn into real hope once we start seeing moves that are Jocketty's MO.

Highlifeman21
04-19-2008, 08:09 AM
Did you read my original post? He brings superstar status to the team - but without superstar performance. He is constantly being praised for every homerun just based on his previous performance, has his own sign about career knocks, can't be lifted from his #3 hole.

Just stuff like that. I don't know anything for sure, but it's just one theory that I hold onto. His elitist status could hold some problems for the Reds clubhouse and performance. Again, just a theory.

I'd argue that KGJ brings superstar status to the team anymore.

IMO, I don't consider KGJ a superstar, and haven't for the last couple of years.

RFS62
04-19-2008, 08:12 AM
I think you're on to something. If Junior had just pitched better the last 8 years, we'd have won a lot more games.

westofyou
04-19-2008, 09:58 AM
Or Krivsky, for that matter.

I keep waiting to start to see moves that are stamped by Jocketty.

Hope concerning the Reds returned to me when Jocketty came on board, but so far it's been false hope. Maybe it'll turn into real hope once we start seeing moves that are Jocketty's MO.



Yeah when he makes the bad ones (and don't you know HE will) who you gonna wish for?

Branch Rickey?

George Weiss?

westofyou
04-19-2008, 10:00 AM
Theories usually employ facts to prove them... otherwise it's just People Magazine garbage.

Highlifeman21
04-19-2008, 10:04 AM
Yeah when he makes the bad ones (and don't you know HE will) who you gonna wish for?

Branch Rickey?

George Weiss?

Sure, I'd love Branch Rickey.

Deep down I want to believe that Jocketty's bad > Krivsky's bad.

westofyou
04-19-2008, 10:08 AM
Sure, I'd love Branch Rickey.



The man who started Taylor Douthit?

You'd hate him... better stick to Weiss he's more your type of GM from what I can tell.

pahster
04-19-2008, 10:09 AM
OKAY HERE'S AN HONEST ATTEMPT AT THE PROBLEM BY ME:

I think that the "losing culture" you talk about since the 1999 1-game playoff could be placed on one single player in the Reds clubhouse: Ken Griffey Jr. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or that he's a bad player - but he takes a certain focus off the TEAM aspect of the game. His consistant batting 3rd for instance - everyone is too scared to move him from his guaranteed three hole. He could be bringing a certain aspect to the clubhouse that we don't see - not to mention dragging in tons of money.

Have you noticed that Griff has yet to be on a very good ballclub? Seattle started owning up the AL WEST once he left - and we went down the sewer after our best season in recent history.

Just a theory.

*prepares to be bashed*

Do I even need to point out the numerous flaws in your argument? The many rival hypotheses and confounding variables?

MWM
04-19-2008, 10:12 AM
Funny thing is that Seattle was considered one of the doormats of MLB mired in a culture of losing until some kid arrived. 2 years later they had the the first winning season in their history. 2 years after that, their second. 2 years later they were in the playoffs for the first time and then in the ALCS and won their division 2 out of 3 years. At the time it was the general consensus that Ken Griffey Junior was the primary reason the franchise was finally able to pull itself out of it's culture of losing. And there was no bigger superstar in the game of baseball in the 90s than Ken Griffey, Junior.

And the Mariners had the great season winning the division the following year in 2000, but haven't been to the playoffs since. So someone ought to check their facts (it took 2 minutes to do so) before talking about the Mariners "owning the AL West" after Jr. Left.

The idea that Junior is a reason, on or off the field, for the Reds' woeful run over the past decade is one of the dumbest things I've ever read here.

Falls City Beer
04-19-2008, 10:13 AM
What brings you to that conclusion?

I think he's already doing basically everything he can financially (eating contracts, signing Cordero); I don't think it would be wise to assume his spending is limitless. Right decisions have to carry the day.

Yachtzee
04-19-2008, 10:17 AM
The title of this thread is misleading. I thought this was going to be a discussion of wacky hijinks in the clubhouse. Maybe the problem is that Junior needs to start dishing out more "hot foots." When was the last time someone got a nice shaving cream pie to the face in the post-game interview?

sonny
04-19-2008, 10:52 AM
The Reds are 7-10 with 145 more games to go. Lets not write this team off just yet. Maybe that's just the optimist in me, but there's quite of an overreaction on this board.

I'm still of the opinion that WK and BC know more about the insides of baseball than any of us.

GAC
04-19-2008, 10:53 AM
OKAY HERE'S AN HONEST ATTEMPT AT THE PROBLEM BY ME:

I think that the "losing culture" you talk about since the 1999 1-game playoff could be placed on one single player in the Reds clubhouse: Ken Griffey Jr. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or that he's a bad player - but he takes a certain focus off the TEAM aspect of the game. His consistant batting 3rd for instance - everyone is too scared to move him from his guaranteed three hole. He could be bringing a certain aspect to the clubhouse that we don't see - not to mention dragging in tons of money.

Have you noticed that Griff has yet to be on a very good ballclub? Seattle started owning up the AL WEST once he left - and we went down the sewer after our best season in recent history.

Just a theory.

And a terrible theory at that. Don't you ever get tired of bashing Jr? Obviously not. He brings a "losing culture"? Get real.

There have been a lot of great ballplayers who never had the opportunity to play on very good ball clubs. That is not that particular player's fault because other important variables may be missing that are conducive to winning consistently.

You can't lay that all on one player (but you do).

The Ms were in the ALCS in 1995 (thanks to Jr), and won the division in '97. In 1996 the Mariners, led by Griffey, rookie shortstop Rodriquez, and sluggers Jay Buhner and Edgar Martinez won a then-team record 85 games, but missed the playoffs. But take notice: The offense, set the all-time record for most home runs by a team in a season. What did them in? The Mariners' inconsistent pitching, exacerbated by a mid-season injury to Randy Johnson. They had losing seasons in '98 and '99 because of a lack of pitching depth, especially in the bullpen. What other team does that sound like? ;)

So when Jr was there they made the post-season twice. Since his departure they have made the post-season twice.

After his departure the Ms started to own the AL West?

The Oakland As and LA Angels might take offense at that claim. How many division titles have the Ms won since Jr's departure? 1 (2001). The As have won the division 4 times (2000, 2002, 2003, 2006); The Angels won the division 3 times (2004, 2005, 2007) (and the WS in 2002 via the WC).

Are you also going to lay any on blame Randy Johnson? Or how about the fact that a year after Arod left, the Mariners had the most successful regular season on record in the modern era, matching the 106 wins sets by the 1906 Cubs?

Yep. These star players were only holding them back. :p:

Many different variables can be looked at as to why the Reds have been losing since 2000, when they went 85-77. The list could be quite long in fact.

But Jr wouldn't be on that list in most people's eyes.

And I believe in the "culture of losing" excuse about as much as I believe a goat cursed the Cubs. :lol:



I think you're on to something. If Junior had just pitched better the last 8 years, we'd have won a lot more games.

http://www.eapcrackerbarrel.com/images/shhhh.jpg

Edskin
04-19-2008, 12:05 PM
I've been critical of the KGJ acquistion in the past, but I do not believe he is the catalyst for the "losing culture" of which I speak. I STILL think it was a bad deal and a very reactionary one at that. While I do NOT "blame" KGJ for any of our problems, it also pretty clear that having a player of his caliber has been pretty pointless for the past 8 years.

Do I think we'd have been "better" without KGJ? Only if that money would have gone towards quality pitching.

Edskin
04-19-2008, 12:12 PM
[QUOTE=GAC;1608093]And I believe in the "culture of losing" excuse about as much as I believe a goat cursed the Cubs. :lol:

[QUOTE]

I'm surprised you don't "buy" into it, GAC. I've seen it in sports and real life all the time. I absolutely believe in self-fulfilling prophecies.

Players are human. I have no doubt that Adam Dunn tries very hard and wants to win badly. I have no doubt that the constant losing frustrates him. I and also believe that just like the fans, Dunn and others may be thinking, "here we go again." And that mentality has a tendancy to filter and ultimately effect performance.

I am NOT saying we have the 1927 Yankees on our hands and they just need to focus more.

I saw it with the Redskins. For 10 years after Joe Gibbs retired, the Redskins could not get out of their own way. In back to back seasons (1996 and 1997) they blew great starts and missed the playoffs under mind-boggling conditions. I started waking up on Sundays KNOWING the Redskins would find a way to lose-- and I think the players, coaches, etc. felt the same way. This trend continued despite a good collection of talent, different coaches, different folks in the FO, etc.

When Joe Gibbs returned he finally seemed to "fix it." But even that was a VERY difficult task, and they never quite reached their goals. It took an incredible amount of effort for the Redskins to even get "respectable" again. And it wasn't simply because their on-field talent didn't stack up.

Highlifeman21
04-19-2008, 01:07 PM
The man who started Taylor Douthit?

You'd hate him... better stick to Weiss he's more your type of GM from what I can tell.

It's possible Weiss might be more my guy, but what I've liked about Rickey was that he took the path less traveled. Not enough of that around baseball, IMO.

cincrazy
04-19-2008, 01:13 PM
I think he's already doing basically everything he can financially (eating contracts, signing Cordero); I don't think it would be wise to assume his spending is limitless. Right decisions have to carry the day.

I agree completely with that. Just wanted some clarification. An open checkbook solves nothing. And obviously, in a market like Cincinnati, an open checkbook isn't going to STAY open.

GAC
04-19-2008, 08:46 PM
I'm surprised you don't "buy" into it, GAC. I've seen it in sports and real life all the time. I absolutely believe in self-fulfilling prophecies.

In this situation, what is a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Let's put this in perspective Ed.....

I was fortunate enough to have been able to witness the BRM of the 70s. A unique opportunity and exciting time for the Cincinnati Reds and their fans. But look at this team's overall history since it's inception. In the 126 years of it's existence they are 9679-9386 with a overall winning percentage of .508. And in their history they've endured several stretches, including almost entire decades, when they consistently put up losing seasons.

Growing up in the 60's, even though those teams had some solid ballplayers on them, they only had a 1st place finish one time (1961), and one 2nd place finish (1964).

In that 126 year span, this team has had 5 WS titles (and two of those came in the 70s), and only 12 post-season appearances (5 of those in the 70s). When one thinks about, that's not really stellar.




It took an incredible amount of effort for the Redskins to even get "respectable" again. And it wasn't simply because their on-field talent didn't stack up.

In the majority of cases, regardless of the team/players, if they are losing consistently, I think it is because their on-field talent does not stack up. And we are deluding ourselves, scratching our heads, and looking for any ol' type of excuse to explain the losing, when we think the talent is there when maybe, it just isn't. It doesn't mean there aren't talented players on this team; but every team has talented players. Just not enough of them in key areas needed to consistently win.

That is why it is completely ridiculous to rail, or try to place the blame on, one particular player, whether it's a Jr, Dunn, or whoever, because a team loses. Baseball, just like the NFL and NBA, has always been a team-dependent sport. You have weak links in one or more areas, then even the talented players (even superstars) aren't going to be able to overcome those deficiencies.

REDREAD
04-19-2008, 11:50 PM
OKAY HERE'S AN HONEST ATTEMPT AT THE PROBLEM BY ME:

I think that the "losing culture" you talk about since the 1999 1-game playoff could be placed on one single player in the Reds clubhouse: Ken Griffey Jr. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, or that he's a bad player - but he takes a certain focus off the TEAM aspect of the game. His consistant batting 3rd for instance - everyone is too scared to move him from his guaranteed three hole. *[/I]

This is wrong. Jr has already batted #4 this year at least once or twice.

Why does Jr usually bat 3 or 4.. Well, because he, Dunn, and Phillips are the best hitters on the team, and for some reason people like to bat Dunn #5.
And it's not because Jr insists upon anything.

Is Jr the one that's been coming out of the bullpen for the last few years and blowing leads?

It's totally ludicrous to blame Jr. :thumbdown