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View Full Version : Will Barry Larkin make the Hall of Fame?



fearofpopvol1
04-21-2008, 04:57 PM
Thought it might be interesting to (re)open this can of worms, since the time isn't too far away. I also thought it might make for an interesting debate.

What do you think? 1st ballot? Will he make it at all? Peter Gammons said not too long ago it's going to be a really close call.

I'm definitely a bit biased, since he is a favorite Red of mine, but when you stack up his numbers with Ozzie, I just don't see how you keep Larkin out.

NJReds
04-21-2008, 05:00 PM
I think he has to be in.

I think Concepcion should be there, too.

Benihana
04-21-2008, 05:03 PM
Yes. An MVP, a WS ring, and 12 All-Star appearances. Not to mention several Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers. He was the best in the league at his position for over a decade. He belongs in the HOF.

cincyinco
04-21-2008, 05:06 PM
No doubt about it. It would be a crime if he didn't make it. He's up there with the greats. Something is wrong if he doesn't get in.

Always Red
04-21-2008, 05:07 PM
Larkin- yes, undoubtedly

Concepcion is one of my personal favorites, and I believe he changed the way SS was played on turf. His problem was being overshadowed by legendary figures (on his own team), and also by the emergence (in the 90's when he became eligible) of SS's that could hit 30-40 HR's, which had never been done before.

I always say this, so I'll repeat it now- if Pee Wee Reese and Phil Rizutto are in the HoF, then Davey belongs there, too. Especially Reese, as I think Rizutto does belong in the Hall.

RedsManRick
04-21-2008, 05:09 PM
I think he obviously belongs, but I don't think it happens for a few years. I think he starts around 40% and takes 5 years or more to garner enough support. The injuries just robbed him of the counting stats too much.

Add in that Ozzie overshadowed his early career greatness and the power heavy late 90's really overshadowed his mid 90's peak and he was fully under appreciated throughout his career. He'll get in eventually, but it won't be quick or easy.

Joseph
04-21-2008, 05:11 PM
Without a doubt. He may, MAY, not make it on the first ballot, but he'll be there.

REDREAD
04-21-2008, 05:46 PM
Who else is in his "graduating" class.

IMO, if he's on a relatively nonspectacular ballot, he'll make it on the first vote.
Otherwise, he will make it second for sure.

I always thought the "first ballot" thing was kind of silly anyhow. Either the guy is worthy or not.. Don't see why the writers would make someone wait a few more years to humble them or whatever.

redsmetz
04-21-2008, 05:56 PM
Who else is in his "graduating" class.

IMO, if he's on a relatively nonspectacular ballot, he'll make it on the first vote.
Otherwise, he will make it second for sure.

I always thought the "first ballot" thing was kind of silly anyhow. Either the guy is worthy or not.. Don't see why the writers would make someone wait a few more years to humble them or whatever.

Here is who the baseball HOF lists for his class

Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, Todd Zeile

coachw513
04-21-2008, 06:00 PM
First, any discussion of this must include this unbelievable thread/post by Cyclone:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42221

There are 14 players from '08's voting that continue on the ballot due to getting at least 5% of the vote:
Name Votes PCT
Rice, Jim 392 72.2%
Dawson, Andre 358 65.9%
Blyleven, Bert 336 61.9%
Smith, Lee 235 43.3%
Morris, Jack 233 42.9%
John, Tommy 158 29.1%
Raines, Tim 132 24.3%
McGwire, Mark 128 23.6%
Trammell, Alan 99 18.2%
Concepcion, Dave 88 16.2%
Mattingly, Don 86 15.8%
Parker, Dave 82 15.1%
Murphy, Dale 75 13.8%
Baines, Harold 28 5.2%

In '09, I've got to believe that Rice and either Dawson or Blyleven get in along with Ricky Henderson, who I think is the only 1st ballot guy in '09...

Eligible for HOF in '09: Steve Avery, Jay Bell, Mike Bordick, John Burkett, David Cone, Ron Gant, Mark Grace, Rickey Henderson, Todd Hundley, Orlando Merced, Charles Nagy, Denny Neagle, Jesse Orosco, Dean Palmer, Dan Plesac, Rick Reed, Greg Vaughn, Mo Vaughn, Matt Williams

I'd expect Grace and Cone to get good voting, enough to be factors in 2010...

Now 2010's list of additional players: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, Todd Zeile

From this list: Alomar, Larkin, Martinez and McGriff are candidates IMHO...

So, for purposes here, I'm removing Rice, Dawson, Blyleven and Ricky Henderson (saying they get enough votes in '09)...that would leave for 2010:

Lee Smith
Jack Morris
Mark Grace
David Cone
Roberto Alomar
Edgar Martinez
Fred McGriff
Barry Larkin

Personally, both in part to the lack of inarguable other players and to his legitimate worth, I think Larkin (and Roberto Alomar) are both 1st ballot-worthy...but I'm more inclined that Larkin gets in the 2nd year in 2011...whenever he gets in I will be there!!


For what it's worth, in 2011 it's Jeff Bagwell, Tino Martinez, Larry Walker and some guy named Rafael Palmeri :D

top6
04-21-2008, 06:02 PM
This 2004 article suggests he will have a hard time:

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/10/17/red1a.html

You have to remember that he was hurt a lot and that his career numbers sufferred because of that. He also finished his career as a mediocre player on some pretty bad teams. He will also be overshadowed by Ripken, Jeter, A-Rod and other SSs. I would vote for him of course, but all of these factors will (wrongly) detract from his chances of making it.

dougdirt
04-21-2008, 06:03 PM
Eventually yes, but it will be well down the road.

OnBaseMachine
04-21-2008, 06:26 PM
Absolutely, positively yes. World Series ring. MVP award winner. 12 All-Star game appearances. First 30/30 shortstop in baseball. A career .295/.371/.444 - .815 hitter. There is no way they can keep him of the Hall of Fame. He may not be a first ballot HOFer (though he is in my book) but he'll get in and I'll be the first one there to Cooperstown to watch him give his speech.

I miss watching Larkin play. He needs to be apart of this organization again, hopefully Castellini can get him back here in Cincy where he belongs.

Hoosier Red
04-21-2008, 06:26 PM
This 2004 article suggests he will have a hard time:

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/10/17/red1a.html

You have to remember that he was hurt a lot and that his career numbers sufferred because of that. He also finished his career as a mediocre player on some pretty bad teams. He will also be overshadowed by Ripken, Jeter, A-Rod and other SSs. I would vote for him of course, but all of these factors will (wrongly) detract from his chances of making it.

Actually the "glut" of otherwise qualified shortstops has thinned out.
Jeter will get in, but A-rod's a 3rd baseman now and will be for the forseeable future, Nomar and Tejada have both come down from their incredible peaks and neither will make the hall.
The only SS I could see making the hall from the current era is Vizquel and his qualifications certainly don't blow Larkin away. (Vizquel clearly has more value defensively, Larkin offensively.)

SunDeck
04-21-2008, 06:30 PM
I think he's in. Not right away, but he'll get in.

REDREAD
04-21-2008, 06:44 PM
Here is who the baseball HOF lists for his class

Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Dave Burba, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McLemore, Shane Reynolds, David Segui, Robin Ventura, Fernando Vina, Todd Zeile

Interesting.. I think Larkin stands a good shot at being a first ballot guy on that list. The spitting incident will hurt Alomar.

Fred McGriff deserves in as well, but I think he was underrated, so he might not get in on the first ballot. I don't know if he'll make first ballot, but I think McGriff is worthy of HOF induction.

cumberlandreds
04-21-2008, 07:50 PM
He'll make it but not first ballot. If he was a New Yawker he would be a first ballot but you know how that goes.

cumberlandreds
04-21-2008, 07:52 PM
Larkin- yes, undoubtedly

Concepcion is one of my personal favorites, and I believe he changed the way SS was played on turf. His problem was being overshadowed by legendary figures (on his own team), and also by the emergence (in the 90's when he became eligible) of SS's that could hit 30-40 HR's, which had never been done before.

I always say this, so I'll repeat it now- if Pee Wee Reese and Phil Rizutto are in the HoF, then Davey belongs there, too. Especially Reese, as I think Rizutto does belong in the Hall.

I have always thought the same thing that if Rizutto and Reese are there then Concepcion should be. His numbers stack up against those two and it's hard for me to believe those two were better fielders than Davey.

CrackerJack
04-21-2008, 08:46 PM
Right now I'm still upset he isn't here coaching or advising or something.

redsrule2500
04-21-2008, 08:53 PM
I don't know why winning a WS Ring should have anything to do with HOF status.

I'm not denying it does - but I don't get it.

Red in Chicago
04-21-2008, 08:53 PM
Does he belong in...absolutely. Will he get in...sadly, I'm guessing not...only because of playing small market the entire time.

Trammell isn't having much luck so far, which is a shame. Concepcion, although not in Larkin's class, didn't have any luck. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not counting on it.

Sabo Fan
04-21-2008, 09:20 PM
Actually the "glut" of otherwise qualified shortstops has thinned out.
Jeter will get in, but A-rod's a 3rd baseman now and will be for the forseeable future, Nomar and Tejada have both come down from their incredible peaks and neither will make the hall.
The only SS I could see making the hall from the current era is Vizquel and his qualifications certainly don't blow Larkin away. (Vizquel clearly has more value defensively, Larkin offensively.)

I have a real hard time seeing Vizquel having a legitimate shot. Good for several years, maybe one great season but ultimately not anywhere close to being HOF worthy. If Vizquel gets more votes at any point than Larkin, then they ought to tear the Hall down.

KronoRed
04-21-2008, 10:48 PM
I doubt it untill the veterans comittee gets to him.

marcshoe
04-21-2008, 10:57 PM
This seems strange, but I wonder if Alomar's incident will help Larkin. I don't think there's any question that both should go in, but I wonder if voters will not only abstain from Alomar on the first ballot, but include Larkin to drive home their point.

This may be way off, but the voting can be strange at time.

At any rate, if Larkin doesn't go in, Reds fans should pay to have a bust made, take it into the museum themselves, and put it on display. They can take down Rizzuto's. :cool: Barry belongs there.

MrCinatit
04-22-2008, 03:26 AM
I think his chances will be helped by having some weak classes in the upcoming elections. But, I don't think it will be quite enough to get him in the first time. He will probably have to go through three or four elections before finally making the grade.

Danny Serafini
04-22-2008, 09:53 AM
He's got virtually no chance of getting in on the first ballot, playing in a small market will do that to you. My guess is he winds up on the same HOF path as Tony Perez.

George Anderson
04-22-2008, 11:13 AM
If Alan Trammell has received little support and his and Barry's careers IMO are very similar, then why would Barry get in?

klw
04-22-2008, 11:50 AM
If Larkin makes it in, I wonder how long it will be until another player is inducted who played his whole career with the same organization. I think he will go in though possibly not on the first ballot.

bucksfan2
04-22-2008, 12:15 PM
As my ultime favorite player and a personal bias I think he deserves to be in the Hall. He revolutionized the SS position. He hit for power, average, had speed, was one of the best base runners, and was probably the best defensive SS in the game for a number of years. I think as a poster alluded to above look at that great SS class that everyone thought would over shadow Larkin. Tejada's career is in shambles, Jeter is a sure fire HOF, ARod isn't a SS any longer, and Nomar hasn't been able to overcome injuries to return to the SS position.

I think you can argue his mid 90 years were the best years of any SS in the game.

Cyclone792
04-22-2008, 12:34 PM
First, any discussion of this must include this unbelievable thread/post by Cyclone:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42221

I haven't seen any updated news or articles on Larkin's Hall shot, but when I dig them up I'll probably toss them in that thread. I've been using it as my stash of all things HOF-Larkin related for two years running now, and I'm sure I'll start pouring more stuff into it as the Larkin vote gets closer.

westofyou
04-22-2008, 12:39 PM
If Larkin makes it in, I wonder how long it will be until another player is inducted who played his whole career with the same organization.
Craig Biggio

Raisor
04-22-2008, 12:46 PM
Craig Biggio

Edgar Martinez. He's up after next season. May take him a time or two, but he'll eventually get in.

Chip R
04-22-2008, 12:55 PM
Edgar Martinez. He's up after next season. May take him a time or two, but he'll eventually get in.


I dunno. The DH thing's really going to be a drawback for him.

Raisor
04-22-2008, 12:59 PM
I dunno. The DH thing's really going to be a drawback for him.

I know. He's my favorite player of all time, so I admit I'm biased.

Chip R
04-22-2008, 01:02 PM
I know. He's my favorite player of all time, so I admit I'm biased.


Noooooooooo? ;)

RedlegJake
04-22-2008, 01:07 PM
Barry has the advantage, though, of always seeming to be a favorite of the writers. Writers love the "hidden attributes" ie, leadership, grit, hustle etc. Barry not only had the numbers but was identified strongly with the intangibles in his career, too. He was also outspoken at times, and always recognized writers as part of the baseball scene. He was also the "face" of the franchise for a decade, played a premium position, was an MVP, AllStar, Gold Glove and has a WS ring - all things writers seem to look for. I expect the vote to be very close either way.

REDREAD
04-22-2008, 02:21 PM
I have a real hard time seeing Vizquel having a legitimate shot. Good for several years, maybe one great season but ultimately not anywhere close to being HOF worthy. If Vizquel gets more votes at any point than Larkin, then they ought to tear the Hall down.

Vizquel has the great glove repuation going for him. That made Ozzie Smith a shoo in. I think Vizquel gets in easy, even though he may be a borderline candidate on paper.

REDREAD
04-22-2008, 02:24 PM
If Alan Trammell has received little support and his and Barry's careers IMO are very similar, then why would Barry get in?

Barry has the advantage of being thought of as "the superstar" when he was with the Reds. Trammel had Whittaker, Gibson, Parrish, etc on their WS teams.

But I agree that when compared to other SS that are in the hall, Trammel should be in too.

Also, I think Barry's MVP helps him a lot. I don't recall Trammel ever winning an MVP.

I'm guessing the press liked Barry. That probably makes a big difference as well, since they are the voters. It shouldn't make a difference, but it does.

George Anderson
04-22-2008, 03:06 PM
Barry has the advantage of being thought of as "the superstar" when he was with the Reds. Trammel had Whittaker, Gibson, Parrish, etc on their WS teams.

But I agree that when compared to other SS that are in the hall, Trammel should be in too.

Also, I think Barry's MVP helps him a lot. I don't recall Trammel ever winning an MVP.

I'm guessing the press liked Barry. That probably makes a big difference as well, since they are the voters. It shouldn't make a difference, but it does.


Trammell's received 18.20% of the HOF vote in 2008 a far cry from the needed 75%.


Trammell finished second in MVP voting in 1987 and did win the 84' WS MVP. I just don't see if Trammell can only can get 18.20% of the vote how Larkin would do that much better to get the required 75%

mth123
12-26-2011, 05:56 PM
Two weeks until the class is announced. With little going on during the holiday, here's a bump just because.

IMO, he's in.

Dom Heffner
12-26-2011, 10:31 PM
I think he's in without issue.

Joseph
12-26-2011, 10:54 PM
He's in and I'll go to the induction ceremony.

Jpup
12-29-2011, 10:42 AM
Bob Costas says he's a slam dunk to make it. He was on with Brian Kenny the other night and neither had a doubt Larkin was in.

RedLegsToday
12-29-2011, 10:55 AM
Repoz over at baseballthinkfactory keeps a tally of votes from writers who announce them. Over the 40ish votes he's gotten so far, I think Larkin was only missing on 2 of them.

crazybob60
12-29-2011, 11:42 AM
Honestly, to tell you the truth, I don't think its a question of whether Larkin will get in or not. Its a question of whether he will be the only inductee or if someone like Jack Morris will be inducted as well. If Larkin goes in by himself, I think it makes it even more special. Just my opinion.

Edd Roush
12-29-2011, 02:20 PM
Honestly, to tell you the truth, I don't think its a question of whether Larkin will get in or not. Its a question of whether he will be the only inductee or if someone like Jack Morris will be inducted as well. If Larkin goes in by himself, I think it makes it even more special. Just my opinion.

Unfortunately, Ron Santo got elected so us Reds' fans will have to deal with all of those Cubbies in Cooperstown. That being said, Santo won't personally be delivering an acceptance speech so Larkin could be the only player still alive inducted.

NJReds
12-29-2011, 03:32 PM
Interesting comparison about Larkin and Alan Trammel from Posnanski. The whole column (http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/12/27/hof-story-3-the-yea-votes/) is an interesting take on the Hall as well.




ALAN TRAMMELL

Last year: 24.3% of the vote

I think Barry Larkin will get into the Hall of Fame this year, and I think he deserves to get in.

He was a great player. In the section above, I list those players who did everything well ó he fits right in. He hit for average, got on base, hit with some power, played excellent shortstop defense, stole bases, led by example, starred in the World SeriesÖ

Iím talking about Barry Larkin.

No, actually, Iím talking about Alan Trammell.

No, actually, I donít see much difference between them.

Take two shortstops. They play almost exactly the same length of time ó one had almost 9,400 plate appearances, the other almost 9,100. They have almost the exact same number of hits. One had a 116 OPS+, the other a 110 OPS+. One has three Gold Gloves, the other four (their defensive statistics, if you prefer those, are similar). One won an MVP award, the other finished second and should have won. One had a great World Series, the other won the World Series MVP. One played in a better era for offense, and had more homers, doubles and stolen bases. The other was more consistent and, by WAR, had three of the four best seasons between them.

By Baseball Reference, Barry Larkin had 68.9 WAR, Alan Trammell 66.9.

By Fangraphs, Barry Larkin had 70.6 WAR, Alan Trammell 69.5

Larkin has a slight lead, but realistically they are about as close as two shortstops can be. Trammell is Larkinís No. 1 comp; Larkin is Trammellís No. 2 comp ó and now they are on the Hall of Fame ballot together. But while Larkin is on the Hall of Fame doorstep (I really do believe that he will be elected this year), Trammell has been on the ballot for 11 years and has never seen his case spark with the voters.

You could reasonably argue that Larkin was a slightly better player. But Iím not sure Iíve heard a good argument for how the Hall of Fame line could be drawn in the slender gap between them.

RedlegJake
12-29-2011, 03:42 PM
Larkin will be elected, and yes, Trammell should have been already.

kaldaniels
12-29-2011, 03:49 PM
If Trammell had a job on MLBN, his vote would double, and that's no slight on Barry. Just reality. Larkin was better. Trammel had a excellent "quiet" career, which hurts his vote count.

George Anderson
12-29-2011, 03:49 PM
Larkin will be elected, and yes, Trammell should have been already.

I have said the same thing about the Trammell/Larkin comparison for some time. WOY told me once that simply Trammell was no Larkin, but I don't remember if he gave details why.

BoydsOfSummer
12-29-2011, 05:10 PM
Think of all the time Lark missed with injuries and the stats he would have added. He played in 150+ games just four times in 19 years. Only had six years of over 140 games. If you use 145 games as a mark, he missed roughly 513 games/3.16 seasons.

Possibly or maybe conservatively he could/would have added: 522 Hits| 100 2b| 18 3B| 45 HR| 84 SB Using his 162g average.

It was a privilege to watch him for 19 years. I sure hope he gets it next month.

Edd Roush
12-29-2011, 05:21 PM
Anyone know the exact date for the 2012 HOF weekend? I see it is always late July, but I guess it could be the 21-22 just as well as the 28-29. Does anyone know for sure?

Jpup
12-29-2011, 06:47 PM
Fred McGriff should be in the Hall. I just don't understand why he doesn't get more support. He was a great player for a long time.

cincy09
12-29-2011, 09:42 PM
Anyone know the exact date for the 2012 HOF weekend? I see it is always late July, but I guess it could be the 21-22 just as well as the 28-29. Does anyone know for sure?

It's the weekend of the 21st.

I'm ready to make my first ever trip to Cooperstown.

Has anyone here ever visited for induction weekend? I'm curious just how crowded the actual Hall of Fame would be say Saturday or Monday.

MrCinatit
12-29-2011, 09:55 PM
It's the weekend of the 21st.

I'm ready to make my first ever trip to Cooperstown.

Has anyone here ever visited for induction weekend? I'm curious just how crowded the actual Hall of Fame would be say Saturday or Monday.

I've been to two of them. We went through the museum on Saturday - it was pretty crowded, but not unbearable. Every baseball fan should go to at least one induction ceremony...it is a sight to be at.

RedsBaron
12-29-2011, 10:22 PM
Larkin will be elected, and yes, Trammell should have been already.

I agree. I rank Larkin higher than Trammell but Trammell is still HOF worthy. Barry is probably one of the top 5 or 6 shortstops ever, while Trammell is in the top 10-12.

Edd Roush
12-29-2011, 10:47 PM
It's the weekend of the 21st.

I'm ready to make my first ever trip to Cooperstown.

Has anyone here ever visited for induction weekend? I'm curious just how crowded the actual Hall of Fame would be say Saturday or Monday.

Fantastic! That's the weekend I was pulling for. The Red Sox are home the week before the induction ceremony and I have never been to Fenway. This will be a fantastic summer vacation.

blumj
12-30-2011, 01:11 AM
Fantastic! That's the weekend I was pulling for. The Red Sox are home the week before the induction ceremony and I have never been to Fenway. This will be a fantastic summer vacation.

In case you haven't already been warned, you do not want RF grandstand seats at Fenway if you have a choice.

Edd Roush
12-30-2011, 09:04 AM
In case you haven't already been warned, you do not want RF grandstand seats at Fenway if you have a choice.

Thanks for the heads up. Not to take this thread too far off track, but what tickets are the best bang for your buck at Fenway? I have never been and am willing to by better than the cheapest tickets if they offer a much better view. Thanks.

George Anderson
12-30-2011, 12:48 PM
In case you haven't already been warned, you do not want RF grandstand seats at Fenway if you have a choice.

I am curious, why not?

Caseyfan21
12-30-2011, 05:57 PM
I've already booked my hotel outside Cooperstown for the Hall of Fame weekend. I figure the rooms will get pretty booked up once the inductees are announced in a couple weeks so I booked it a few weeks back. The best rooms I could find at a reasonable rate were about 45 mins to an hour away already. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise with all the people that go every year and probably book pretty early.

For those planning to go for Larkin I'd recommend booking a room now just in case. You can always cancel at no charge up until right before the weekend if you choose not to go or Larkin doesn't make it in.

blumj
12-30-2011, 08:57 PM
I am curious, why not?
They don't face quite the right way, so you end up with a lousy view and a stiff neck. The IF grandstands are worth spending a little more to me, but the CF bleachers aren't bad, you're kind of far away and among the beachball tossers and wave-doers, but at least you're facing the right direction.

MikeThierry
12-30-2011, 09:55 PM
Fred McGriff should be in the Hall. I just don't understand why he doesn't get more support. He was a great player for a long time.

I think McGriff is a case where he belongs in the Hall of Very Good. I don't know if he is a Hall of Fame player though. His numbers look boarder line to me.

TRF
12-31-2011, 12:22 AM
I have said the same thing about the Trammell/Larkin comparison for some time. WOY told me once that simply Trammell was no Larkin, but I don't remember if he gave details why.

I won't speak for woy, but my opinion is this. Larkin played on turf, Trammell on grass.

Edge Larkin.

Scrap Irony
12-31-2011, 01:07 AM
I loved Trammel, but he's likely a step below Larkin.

That's no slight, though, as I also believe he belongs in the Hall of Fame. Generally, if a guy is a Top Ten positional guy overall or a Top Three in his era, he belongs, IMO.

The only SS who were demonstrably better than Trammell (and that's stretching it in at least a couple of these cases) are:
Cal Ripken
Robin Yount
Ozzie Smith
Barry Larkin
Arky Vaughan
Luke Appling
Honus Wagner
Lou Boudreau
Joe Cronin
Ernie Banks
Joe Sewell

Add in ARod and Jeter from today's game and baseball writers should see the guy belongs in remarkably elite company. Hall of Fame company.

George Anderson
12-31-2011, 01:27 AM
I loved Trammel, but he's likely a step below Larkin.
.

I agree, my argument has always been Trammells vote totals are ridiculous. His highest vote total was last year at 24.3%. He hasn't even received 1/3 of the vote total needed to reach the required 75%. Larkin was better than Trammell but not by 2/3rds.


2002 BBWAA (15.7%)
2003 BBWAA (14.1%)
2004 BBWAA (13.8%)
2005 BBWAA (16.9%)
2006 BBWAA (17.7%)
2007 BBWAA (13.4%)
2008 BBWAA (18.2%)
2009 BBWAA (17.4%)
2010 BBWAA (22.4%)
2011 BBWAA (24.3%)

RedsBaron
12-31-2011, 11:52 AM
I think McGriff is a case where he belongs in the Hall of Very Good. I don't know if he is a Hall of Fame player though. His numbers look boarder line to me.

The 1994 work stoppage may cost McGriff induction to the HOF. In the roughly two-thirds of the season that was played McGriff was having his finest season, with 34 HRs when play stopped. He finished his career with 493 HRs. Had play not been stopped in 1994 McGriff probably would have hit the additional 7 HRs he ultimately would have needed for 500 in his career, and with that many HRs his chances with the writers would have been greatly improved.

mth123
12-31-2011, 12:13 PM
The 1994 work stoppage may cost McGriff induction to the HOF. In the roughly two-thirds of the season that was played McGriff was having his finest season, with 34 HRs when play stopped. He finished his career with 493 HRs. Had play not been stopped in 1994 McGriff probably would have hit the additional 7 HRs he ultimately would have needed for 500 in his career, and with that many HRs his chances with the writers would have been greatly improved.

If he'd hit 7 more HRs with no hint of Roids, he'd be a first ballot lock.

alexad
12-31-2011, 04:41 PM
If he'd hit 7 more HRs with no hint of Roids, he'd be a first ballot lock.
McGriff was a toothpick. No way he used Roids.

mth123
12-31-2011, 04:44 PM
McGriff was a toothpick. No way he used Roids.

I don't think he used roids either, but he wasn't a toothpick. He was one solid muscle. Like a python rather than a grizzley bear.

Ron Madden
12-31-2011, 07:45 PM
John Erardi shares his HOF Ballot:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111231/COL19/312310035/Erardi-Larkin-only-no-doubter?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Reds

RedsBaron
12-31-2011, 08:09 PM
John Erardi shares his HOF Ballot:

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20111231/COL19/312310035/Erardi-Larkin-only-no-doubter?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Reds

Decent ballot.

Ron Madden
01-01-2012, 03:20 PM
Decent ballot.

Agreed, it sure beats a couple I've seen from Hal McCoy in the past.

Always Red
01-01-2012, 09:32 PM
Decent ballot.

A very fine article by John Fay.

Ron Madden
01-01-2012, 09:36 PM
A very fine article by John Fay.

This article was written by John Erardi. ;)

Always Red
01-01-2012, 09:52 PM
This article was written by John Erardi. ;)

:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl:

:redface:

:fineprint:

Well, that explains a lot and you can read anything you like into that. :oops:

westofyou
01-01-2012, 09:57 PM
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/2012_hall_of_fame_ballot_collecting_gizmo/P100/

WebScorpion
01-02-2012, 01:03 AM
This article was written by John Erardi. ;)That's just like Fay, to make a typo on his own last name...:lol:

cincy09
01-02-2012, 12:21 PM
I've already booked my hotel outside Cooperstown for the Hall of Fame weekend. I figure the rooms will get pretty booked up once the inductees are announced in a couple weeks so I booked it a few weeks back. The best rooms I could find at a reasonable rate were about 45 mins to an hour away already. I guess that shouldn't be a surprise with all the people that go every year and probably book pretty early.

For those planning to go for Larkin I'd recommend booking a room now just in case. You can always cancel at no charge up until right before the weekend if you choose not to go or Larkin doesn't make it in.

What hotel did you get? I'm finding the choices to be few and far between.

Edd Roush
01-02-2012, 01:16 PM
What hotel did you get? I'm finding the choices to be few and far between.

I'm pretty interested to hear what hotels people booked as well. Looks like there are a lot of dives around Cooperstown, and I don't know if I want to book a few of them.

By the way, I think we should do a Redszone gathering in Cooperstown for Hall of Fame weekend. I think it would be a great time.

edabbs44
01-02-2012, 01:54 PM
What hotel did you get? I'm finding the choices to be few and far between.

Just gt an email that the Lake Front has availability.

edabbs44
01-02-2012, 01:55 PM
I'm pretty interested to hear what hotels people booked as well. Looks like there are a lot of dives around Cooperstown, and I don't know if I want to book a few of them.

By the way, I think we should do a Redszone gathering in Cooperstown for Hall of Fame weekend. I think it would be a great time.

I think it is mostly dives.

Edd Roush
01-02-2012, 02:07 PM
Just gt an email that the Lake Front has availability.

I just called and made reservations there for Hall of Fame weekend. Only two rooms remain with king sized beds. They are $300 a night. Apparently this hotel is only two blocks from the Hall of Fame and is right on the lake. I would call quickly if you want a reservation in downtown Cooperstown.

RBA
01-02-2012, 06:34 PM
I have just changed my Avatar to Larkin and he will stay there until after his HOF induction. Anyone else?

Chip R
01-02-2012, 11:33 PM
In case you haven't already been warned, you do not want RF grandstand seats at Fenway if you have a choice.

My tickets were there and I thought they were fine.

Ron Madden
01-04-2012, 04:28 AM
.



http://ramsey.mlblogs.com/2012/01/03/2012-hall-of-fame-results-to-air-live-on-mlb-network-mlb-com-on-january-9/

.

medford
01-04-2012, 01:59 PM
.



http://ramsey.mlblogs.com/2012/01/03/2012-hall-of-fame-results-to-air-live-on-mlb-network-mlb-com-on-january-9/

.

Interesting, w/ many thinking Larkin will be the only name called, 2 hours seems kind of long. On top of that, what if no body gets the call, what the heck do they talk about for 2 hours? I can't imagine cooperstown wants a season where no one gets inducted, I can't imagine MLB wants it either. I also assume by this point they know who has enough votes to get in.

cumberlandreds
01-04-2012, 02:12 PM
Interesting, w/ many thinking Larkin will be the only name called, 2 hours seems kind of long. On top of that, what if no body gets the call, what the heck do they talk about for 2 hours? I can't imagine cooperstown wants a season where no one gets inducted, I can't imagine MLB wants it either. I also assume by this point they know who has enough votes to get in.

They can always talk about Pete Rose and the steriod boys and whether they should be allowed in. That will kill the last 1 1/2 hours. :)

RANDY IN INDY
01-04-2012, 03:44 PM
Heard on XM Power Alley show, this morning, that quite a few of the BBWA will not vote for anyone because they feel no one is worthy this year. Always bigger than the game.

edabbs44
01-04-2012, 07:48 PM
Heard on XM Power Alley show, this morning, that quite a few of the BBWA will not vote for anyone because they feel no one is worthy this year. Always bigger than the game.

I don't get it. Should they vote for people that they don't believe are worthy?

RANDY IN INDY
01-04-2012, 08:07 PM
Barry Larkin not worthy? Give me a break.

edabbs44
01-04-2012, 08:09 PM
Barry Larkin not worthy? Give me a break.

I think he is but I wouldn't say he is a lock.

RANDY IN INDY
01-04-2012, 08:14 PM
Look at the list of shortstops that have been elected and tell me why writers would come out and say no one is worthy this year. And if they really feel that way, keep it to themselves. The BBWA is laughable at times when it comes to HOF voting. They think they are bigger than the game.

edabbs44
01-04-2012, 09:11 PM
Look at the list of shortstops that have been elected and tell me why writers would come out and say no one is worthy this year. And if they really feel that way, keep it to themselves. The BBWA is laughable at times when it comes to HOF voting. They think they are bigger than the game.

Two thoughts:

1) Maybe those same voters didn't vote for some of those other SSs.

2) Which SSs made it in quicker than Larkin who you would dispute?

MikeThierry
01-04-2012, 10:30 PM
The BBWA is laughable at times when it comes to HOF voting. They think they are bigger than the game.

Don't get me started about the BBWAA. This is the same organization who voted in Babe Ruth with only 95% of the vote and Ted Williams with just 93% of the vote. The voting process is a joke. As Bernie Miklasz said on his local radio show here in St. Louis, they allow and keep members in the organization who had a by-line 40 years ago and have nothing to do with the game of baseball. He is so frustrated with the process and ego's involved that he is thinking about giving up his vote. It is a silly process. At least with the NFL, the voting membership is limited and people get in a room to debate the worthiness of a given player. Not our national past time though. Some schmuck can make his case for any random player without explaining or being held accountable for his/her vote. For a game with so much tradition and standards, it is amazing how flawed the process is.

George Anderson
01-04-2012, 10:49 PM
Don't get me started about the BBWAA. This is the same organization who voted in Babe Ruth with only 95% of the vote and Ted Williams with just 93% of the vote. The voting process is a joke. As Bernie Miklasz said on his local radio show here in St. Louis, they allow and keep members in the organization who had a by-line 40 years ago and have nothing to do with the game of baseball. He is so frustrated with the process and ego's involved that he is thinking about giving up his vote. It is a silly process. At least with the NFL, the voting membership is limited and people get in a room to debate the worthiness of a given player. Not our national past time though. Some schmuck can make his case for any random player without explaining or being held accountable for his/her vote. For a game with so much tradition and standards, it is amazing how flawed the process is.

I am about 3/4 of the way through Bill James book "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame". It is an excellent book so far and gives very good insight on the voting history of the HOF. Yes, for the most part the voting has been flawed.

Caseyfan21
01-04-2012, 11:33 PM
What hotel did you get? I'm finding the choices to be few and far between.

I booked at the Holiday Inn Express Schoharie. It's about 40 miles from Cooperstown (hour drive) but from what I saw it was the best combo of value and location. Most of the closer, cheaper hotels are completely booked up. I was looking to spend no more than around $100 per night

MikeThierry
01-05-2012, 12:14 AM
I am about 3/4 of the way through Bill James book "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame". It is an excellent book so far and gives very good insight on the voting history of the HOF. Yes, for the most part the voting has been flawed.

I'm going to have to pick that up sometime. What is his main premise as to why the HOF voting is flawed? I have my reasons why its a flawed process but what are Bill James reasons?

George Anderson
01-05-2012, 12:54 AM
I'm going to have to pick that up sometime. What is his main premise as to why the HOF voting is flawed? I have my reasons why its a flawed process but what are Bill James reasons?

Oh the most glaring reason is cronyism. Frankie Frisch for example led a committee that put several of his Cardinal teammates in the HOF that had no business being in there. Also the HOF would go several years without inducting anyone, so they would change the rules and the very next year like 8 players would be inducted. James goes into detail about the committees that over the years did a shoddy job of evaluating players and kinda made rules up as they went along.

I have learned alot about what players belong and didn't belong. I thought for example despite having 300 wins,Don Sutton had no business being in the HOF but James proved me wrong.

Ron Madden
01-05-2012, 04:35 AM
Here's another article by John Erardi:


http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120104/COL19/301040176/Inside-info-Hall-Fame-voting-process


.

RichRed
01-05-2012, 11:56 AM
I have a bad feeling that when the chips are down, these geniuses will look at Larkin's lack of counting stats and decide not to vote him in. They'll make him "pay his dues" - whatever that's supposed to mean - by waiting another year or two.

westofyou
01-05-2012, 12:06 PM
I have a bad feeling that when the chips are down, these geniuses will look at Larkin's lack of counting stats and decide not to vote him in. They'll make him "pay his dues" - whatever that's supposed to mean - by waiting another year or two.

Nope, he's in this year, and I'm going to NY, my people's home state has not seen me in awhile, this is the perfect time to reconnect

TRF
01-05-2012, 12:20 PM
I am hoping to go. I've informed the family I am going and that they MAY be allowed to go with me.

They have to apply though. And I'll need references.

*BaseClogger*
01-05-2012, 12:26 PM
Article by JoePo posted on Tuesday about the history of the Hall:

http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2012/01/future-and-past-of-hall-of-fame.html

MikeThierry
01-05-2012, 07:49 PM
I really don't think Reds fans will have to worry about Larkin getting in this year. It was a travisty that he didn't get in last year.

kbrake
01-05-2012, 07:55 PM
We'll have to have a little Redszone get together in Cooperstown.

Edd Roush
01-05-2012, 09:07 PM
We'll have to have a little Redszone get together in Cooperstown.

I'm in. Anyone know what the best bar in Cooperstown is?

The Voice of IH
01-05-2012, 09:29 PM
I'm in. Anyone know what the best bar in Cooperstown is?

I'm almost sure Cooperstown is a dry place. it's SYOB.

RedlegJake
01-05-2012, 10:29 PM
ESPN has a good article on WAAS (WINS Above ALL Star) as a possible way to filter the field. Basically you take lifetime WAR, deduct 2.5 WAR per season as a rough estimate of an average all star level of play, and what's left is totalled for a career. It filters out long term "above mediocrity but not really star" where a player accumulates stats just by virtue of long careers, and rewards really stellar campaigns. The bottom of the trough, so to speak, for current inductees is around 20 WAAS, by that standard Barry Larkin has 31.7, and Alan Trammel 32.8. WAAS tends to make things quite a bit more realistic viz a viz a guy's star quality - for instance Koufax and Frank Tanana had career WAR of 54.5 and 55.1 respectively, but WAAS has Koufax at 32.6 and Tanana only 19.7 despite a tremendous difference in the length of careers. It is fairly consistent across playing eras, compensates for length of career, and awards great seasons only above a certain base level. It's quick and dirty but I kinda like it.

RANDY IN INDY
01-06-2012, 08:18 AM
I'm almost sure Cooperstown is a dry place. it's SYOB.

They serve drinks in town.

westofyou
01-06-2012, 09:21 AM
I'm almost sure Cooperstown is a dry place. it's SYOB.

In 2007, referendums were placed on the ballots of two dry and two moist towns, asking the voters to allow the towns to become "wet". Potter, which was previously dry, voted to go wet. Mina, which was moist, voted to go wet. Bovina, which was previously dry, voted to become moist. Franklin, which was moist, voted to stay moist.[71]
After this latest vote, there remain ten towns in New York state that are completely dry, including Neversink, established 1798, in Sullivan County.[72]
The other "dry" towns in the state are: Caneadea in Allegany County, Clymer and Harmony in Chautauqua County, Lapeer in Cortland County, Orwell in Oswego County, Fremont and Jasper in Steuben County, Berkshire in Tioga County and Argyle in Washington County.[71]
The town of West Almond, New York does not allow off-premises consumption, while the towns of Freedom, Hartford, Franklin, Seneca, Caton, Rathbone, Newark Valley, Butler, Rose, Pike, Wethersfield and Middlesex do not allow on-premises consumption.[71]
The towns of Essex, Bovina, Gorham, Richford, Orangeville, and Barrington do not allow on-premises consumption except in year-round hotels.[71]

Edd Roush
01-06-2012, 09:45 AM
In 2007, referendums were placed on the ballots of two dry and two moist towns, asking the voters to allow the towns to become "wet". Potter, which was previously dry, voted to go wet. Mina, which was moist, voted to go wet. Bovina, which was previously dry, voted to become moist. Franklin, which was moist, voted to stay moist.[71]
After this latest vote, there remain ten towns in New York state that are completely dry, including Neversink, established 1798, in Sullivan County.[72]
The other "dry" towns in the state are: Caneadea in Allegany County, Clymer and Harmony in Chautauqua County, Lapeer in Cortland County, Orwell in Oswego County, Fremont and Jasper in Steuben County, Berkshire in Tioga County and Argyle in Washington County.[71]
The town of West Almond, New York does not allow off-premises consumption, while the towns of Freedom, Hartford, Franklin, Seneca, Caton, Rathbone, Newark Valley, Butler, Rose, Pike, Wethersfield and Middlesex do not allow on-premises consumption.[71]
The towns of Essex, Bovina, Gorham, Richford, Orangeville, and Barrington do not allow on-premises consumption except in year-round hotels.[71]


This is great news. I was worried that I paid extra for a hotel only a block and a half from the Hall of Fame for no reason. So now, the question remains, which establishment should host the first Redszone gathering ever in Cooperstown?

bucksfan2
01-06-2012, 09:52 AM
ESPN has a good article on WAAS (WINS Above ALL Star) as a possible way to filter the field. Basically you take lifetime WAR, deduct 2.5 WAR per season as a rough estimate of an average all star level of play, and what's left is totalled for a career. It filters out long term "above mediocrity but not really star" where a player accumulates stats just by virtue of long careers, and rewards really stellar campaigns. The bottom of the trough, so to speak, for current inductees is around 20 WAAS, by that standard Barry Larkin has 31.7, and Alan Trammel 32.8. WAAS tends to make things quite a bit more realistic viz a viz a guy's star quality - for instance Koufax and Frank Tanana had career WAR of 54.5 and 55.1 respectively, but WAAS has Koufax at 32.6 and Tanana only 19.7 despite a tremendous difference in the length of careers. It is fairly consistent across playing eras, compensates for length of career, and awards great seasons only above a certain base level. It's quick and dirty but I kinda like it.

Very interesting. I do wonder when and if they are able to put a better value on defensive stats what will happen to Larkin's total value. I find it hard to believe that Trammel has a better WAAS than Larkin but I didn't get to see too much of him play.

marcshoe
01-06-2012, 01:14 PM
Is there any real evidence linking Bagwell to steroids? I can't think of any other reason to keep him out. Except maybe the beard.

TRF
01-06-2012, 01:21 PM
Is there any real evidence linking Bagwell to steroids? I can't think of any other reason to keep him out. Except maybe the beard.

The batting stance. Always looked like he was using the facilities... so to speak.

kbrake
01-07-2012, 12:39 AM
I booked my hotel earlier today. I went with a hotel about 45 mins outside of Cooperstown because it was available and much cheaper. Looking forward to my first trip to Cooperstown.

RedsBaron
01-07-2012, 09:03 AM
Is there any real evidence linking Bagwell to steroids? I can't think of any other reason to keep him out. Except maybe the beard.

I am not aware of any other evidence. Bagwell is in a group of players whom I believe probably used steroids but for whom there is no real evidence to support that belief beyond his physique. If I was allowed to vote in HOF elections I would vote to induct Bagwell.
I struggle more with the question of whether or not to induct players whom I am convinced used steroids. For someone such as Bagwell it is no struggle--induct him.

MikeThierry
01-07-2012, 10:01 AM
I am not aware of any other evidence. Bagwell is in a group of players whom I believe probably used steroids but for whom there is no real evidence to support that belief beyond his physique. If I was allowed to vote in HOF elections I would vote to induct Bagwell.
I struggle more with the question of whether or not to induct players whom I am convinced used steroids. For someone such as Bagwell it is no struggle--induct him.

I agree with you there. The Jeff Bagwell issue is a prime example of the almost abuse of what little power the voters have. These guys are being the moral judge, jury, and executioner of whether or not players used steroids. This is ironic considering that probably half of these "voters of moral worthiness" are adulterers and alcoholics. In the mean time, there is a guy who literally almost beat a guy to death, simply because he was African American, in the Hall of Fame. Unbelievable

George Anderson
01-07-2012, 02:34 PM
I agree with you there. The Jeff Bagwell issue is a prime example of the almost abuse of what little power the voters have. These guys are being the moral judge, jury, and executioner of whether or not players used steroids. This is ironic considering that probably half of these "voters of moral worthiness" are adulterers and alcoholics. In the mean time, there is a guy who literally almost beat a guy to death, simply because he was African American, in the Hall of Fame. Unbelievable

While I am not condoning these actions, these actions do not have a direct result of a players performance on the field like steroids do. I mean if adultery and drinking benefited a players performance then George Ruth would have been a greater player than he already was.

westofyou
01-07-2012, 03:07 PM
While I am not condoning these actions, these actions do not have a direct result of a players performance on the field like steroids do. I mean if adultery and drinking benefited a players performance then George Ruth would have been a greater player than he already was.
I love the Cobb was evil argument, let's also note that Anson was a racist (but hey who wasn't in 1878?) and Speaker was in the KKK (but hey the Indiana government was as well in the 1920's) Oh and John McGraw has been accused of offering other teams bribes to lay down, and Gary Herrmann bet 6 K against the Pirates when he was on the executive council and then traded his best CF to the Giants in hope it would skew the race, and Mickey Mantle had sex under the stands during the game, and King Kelly drank during the games, and Sam Crawford jumped leagues, as did Nap Lajoie and blah, blah, blah.

RedsManRick
01-07-2012, 03:57 PM
ESPN has a good article on WAAS (WINS Above ALL Star) as a possible way to filter the field. Basically you take lifetime WAR, deduct 2.5 WAR per season as a rough estimate of an average all star level of play, and what's left is totalled for a career. It filters out long term "above mediocrity but not really star" where a player accumulates stats just by virtue of long careers, and rewards really stellar campaigns. The bottom of the trough, so to speak, for current inductees is around 20 WAAS, by that standard Barry Larkin has 31.7, and Alan Trammel 32.8. WAAS tends to make things quite a bit more realistic viz a viz a guy's star quality - for instance Koufax and Frank Tanana had career WAR of 54.5 and 55.1 respectively, but WAAS has Koufax at 32.6 and Tanana only 19.7 despite a tremendous difference in the length of careers. It is fairly consistent across playing eras, compensates for length of career, and awards great seasons only above a certain base level. It's quick and dirty but I kinda like it.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/7393110/mlb-new-stat-measures-true-hall-fame-talent-espn-magazine

I'm a fan of the approach as well. You either have to have a superb peak of be very good for a long time. Merely being pretty good for a really long time doesn't get it done.



Four players in MLB history are over 100 WAAS: Babe Ruth (123.9), Barry Bonds (118.9), Willie Mays (104.3) and Ty Cobb (103.4). The lower level at which players should make Cooperstown depends on how big a Hall you want. At its current size of roughly 200 former major leaguers, 20 WAAS is a reasonable cutoff point for consideration.

Among players on Hall ballots in 2012, Ron Santo, just selected by the veterans committee, was an obvious choice. The Cubs great had more WAAS (38.4) than 60 percent of the third basemen already in the Hall. The group of players eligible for the first time this January, however, is a weak lot. The best among them, Bernie Williams, carries only a 21.1 WAAS.

But several returning candidates are worthy, including Jeff Bagwell (45.2) and Edgar Martinez (34.8), truly great hitters, and Alan Trammell (32.1), Barry Larkin (31.7) and Tim Raines (27.0), whose all-around play produced many high-WAAS seasons. WAAS reveals that Mark McGwire (28.3) and Rafael Palmeiro (26.8) would belong in the Hall absent their off-field transgressions but that their careers weren't as impressive as their raw numbers. It rejects Fred McGriff (18.1), Jack Morris (13.7) and Juan Gonzalez (10.5) -- not enough dominant seasons.

What I find interesting is the interplay between voting and the narrative. If there weren't a whole bunch of assertions that Larkin was going to get in, how many of the guys who didn't vote for him in the past would have changed their minds. Seems like the same happened with Blyeleven. I think the real turning point for guys who aren't first-time types is how the narrative progresses in the media. I think it's going to be fascinating how Bagwell is treated next year when the ballot starts to get stuffed with known steroid users.

MikeThierry
01-07-2012, 04:08 PM
While I am not condoning these actions, these actions do not have a direct result of a players performance on the field like steroids do. I mean if adultery and drinking benefited a players performance then George Ruth would have been a greater player than he already was.

That wasn't the point. My point was that you have writers who judge themselves the moral compass of who should be let in to the HOF but they themselves have iffy moral compasses. The BBWAA doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to determining who is right or wrong. The grandstanding that some writers take on Jeff Bagwell, for example, is beyond hypocritical in my opinion.

As far as other players being alcoholics, these guys deserve a fast track to the hall of fame. If they can perform at that level under a substance that impairs judgement, let them all in! :laugh::lol:

George Anderson
01-07-2012, 04:12 PM
My point was that you have writers who judge themselves the moral compass of who should be let in to the HOF but they themselves have iffy moral compasses. :

How do you know all the writers have iffy moral compasses? As far as I know they all are Ned Flanders types. What proof do you have they are not the most wholesome individuals?

George Anderson
01-07-2012, 04:40 PM
I love the Cobb was evil argument,
.

Going slightly off topic but this is a great article showing the notion that Cobb was some evil racist has been very much over blown.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist

RANDY IN INDY
01-07-2012, 04:55 PM
Going slightly off topic but this is a great article showing the notion that Cobb was some evil racist has been very much over blown.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist

Yeah, Cobb didn't like anyone!:)

MikeThierry
01-07-2012, 06:27 PM
How do you know all the writers have iffy moral compasses? As far as I know they all are Ned Flanders types. What proof do you have they are not the most wholesome individuals?

Not all the writers are bad, but a good chunk of them aren't saints either. Bernie Miklasz, for example, was caught with a DUI a decade or so ago. He explains how he has very little room to talk when it comes to judging players when they may have made a mistake.

edabbs44
01-07-2012, 06:31 PM
That wasn't the point. My point was that you have writers who judge themselves the moral compass of who should be let in to the HOF but they themselves have iffy moral compasses. The BBWAA doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to determining who is right or wrong. The grandstanding that some writers take on Jeff Bagwell, for example, is beyond hypocritical in my opinion.

As far as other players being alcoholics, these guys deserve a fast track to the hall of fame. If they can perform at that level under a substance that impairs judgement, let them all in! :laugh::lol:

I don't think it's the morality question that is keeping them out.

westofyou
01-07-2012, 06:52 PM
Going slightly off topic but this is a great article showing the notion that Cobb was some evil racist has been very much over blown.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist

FYI, The author of that article was licked out of the SABR deadball group, he essentially was the Richard Hand of that listserve. he's a handful

757690
01-07-2012, 07:31 PM
Going slightly off topic but this is a great article showing the notion that Cobb was some evil racist has been very much over blown.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist

No offense, but a standard bleacher report article. I mean it actually uses the argument that Cobb couldn't be racist, because some of best friends were black. Lol

There are plenty of reports of Cobb being racist. Just watch the Burns section on him, it tells of many incidents of Cobb not just hating blacks, but being violent against them and anyone who even socialized with blacks.

However, this was not unique to Cobb. Most southern players at that time still were bitter about the civil war and extremely hateful towards blacks, which is why there wasn't much written about it at the time, it really wasn't considered a big deal.

Now it is true that as Cobb got older, he became less racist, and just less angry overall, but there is little doubt that Cobb in youth was a racist.

George Anderson
01-07-2012, 07:43 PM
Not all the writers are bad, but a good chunk of them aren't saints either. Bernie Miklasz, for example, was caught with a DUI a decade or so ago. He explains how he has very little room to talk when it comes to judging players when they may have made a mistake.

Well there were 581 ballots cast last year in the 2011 HOF election but because one guy got a DUI several years ago we should regard the other 580 as "a good chunk of them aren't saints either"?

George Anderson
01-07-2012, 07:50 PM
There are plenty of reports of Cobb being racist. Just watch the Burns section on him, it tells of many incidents of Cobb not just hating blacks, but being violent against them and anyone who even socialized with blacks.

.

I have a very hard time sitting throught the Burns stuff not only because he basically ignores anything baseball related that didn't happen on the east coast but he definitely has a very bias view politically that grows old with me. I guess I will say if Cobb was indeed a racist as so may claim then as already mentioned in this thread he was hardly the only one but for some reason the fingers get pointed at him.

Big Klu
01-08-2012, 12:15 AM
FYI, The author of that article was licked out of the SABR deadball group, he essentially was the Richard Hand of that listserve. he's a handful

Obviously his moral compass is way off.

westofyou
01-08-2012, 12:44 AM
I have a very hard time sitting throught the Burns stuff not only because he basically ignores anything baseball related that didn't happen on the east coast but he definitely has a very bias view politically that grows old with me. I guess I will say if

Cobb was indeed a racist as so may claim then as already mentioned in this thread he was hardly the only one but for some reason the fingers get pointed at him.

Yeah he can be a tad sanctimounous if you want some great stuff on the game outside of the pro spectrum check this book out


http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0195069072

Baseball: The People's Game


|*

Tony Cloninger
01-08-2012, 06:37 PM
I have a very hard time sitting throught the Burns stuff not only because he basically ignores anything baseball related that didn't happen on the east coast but he definitely has a very bias view politically that grows old with me. I guess I will say if Cobb was indeed a racist as so may claim then as already mentioned in this thread he was hardly the only one but for some reason the fingers get pointed at him.


Herb Pennock is well known as one. He was the Phillie GM when Jackie was breaking in. He made no bone about how he felt.

Al Simmons was a known card carrying Member of the KKK. Just one of those groups to join in those days. Pretty much everyone in Europe during the 20-'s and 30's and into early 40's was either a Communist or a Fascist.

Matt700wlw
01-09-2012, 12:07 AM
Back to Barry. I hope the writers made the right decision.

That's always in question.

savafan
01-09-2012, 12:55 AM
I love the Cobb was evil argument, let's also note that Anson was a racist (but hey who wasn't in 1878?) and Speaker was in the KKK (but hey the Indiana government was as well in the 1920's) Oh and John McGraw has been accused of offering other teams bribes to lay down, and Gary Herrmann bet 6 K against the Pirates when he was on the executive council and then traded his best CF to the Giants in hope it would skew the race, and Mickey Mantle had sex under the stands during the game, and King Kelly drank during the games, and Sam Crawford jumped leagues, as did Nap Lajoie and blah, blah, blah.

You've convinced me. Throw 'em all out! ;)

Hoosier Red
01-09-2012, 09:41 AM
How do you know all the writers have iffy moral compasses? As far as I know they all are Ned Flanders types. What proof do you have they are not the most wholesome individuals?

That's an odd stance to take George. I know because their's a group of 581 humans. Getting a random selection of people that large and its very unlikely that they are all going to be straight arrows.

But whether they are individually straight arrows or not, there's no way to differentiate when they cast a vote. It's not like the HOF sends out different guidelines to different voters.

John Fay, despite the fact that you went to Elder, you seem like a stand up guy, feel free to put any moral qualifiers you want.
Bill Conlin, let's just say you probably should just "judge not lest ye be judged" until your little legal issue is settled.

And quite honestly anyone who disqualifies a player over nothing more than rumor and baseless speculation should probably not be casting moral judgements over anyone.

George Anderson
01-09-2012, 09:49 AM
That's an odd stance to take George. I know because their's a group of 581 humans. Getting a random selection of people that large and its very unlikely that they are all going to be straight arrows.

But whether they are individually straight arrows or not, there's no way to differentiate when they cast a vote. It's not like the HOF sends out different guidelines to different voters.

John Fay, despite the fact that you went to Elder, you seem like a stand up guy, feel free to put any moral qualifiers you want.
Bill Conlin, let's just say you probably should just "judge not lest ye be judged" until your little legal issue is settled.

And quite honestly anyone who disqualifies a player over nothing more than rumor and baseless speculation should probably not be casting moral judgements over anyone. You misinterpreted my point. I am not at all for keeping players out based on rumors or such things as alcoholism or adultery etc. My point was only things like steroids or throwing games which are things that directly affect a game should be factored in as to whether a player should be inducted or not. Other stuff that doesnt affect the outcome of a game doesnt bother me

MikeThierry
01-09-2012, 11:25 AM
You misinterpreted my point. I am not at all for keeping players out based on rumors or such things as alcoholism or adultery etc. My point was only things like steroids or throwing games which are things that directly affect a game should be factored in as to whether a player should be inducted or not. Other stuff that doesnt affect the outcome of a game doesnt bother me

That is the issue though. Writers are now taking stands in which there is no evidence that player A took steroids. I know of some writers that take the stand that all players in the steroid era are tainted and won't vote for them. It's a ridiculous opinion and is almost worthy of getting their BBWAA membership taken away.

MikeThierry
01-09-2012, 11:26 AM
By the way, this is a very good, well thought article on Fred McGriff's HOF worthiness.

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/19729/fred-mcgriff-on-the-hall-of-fame-border

Jpup
01-09-2012, 11:37 AM
I may be the only one, but McGriff should be a lock for the Hall. Larkin, Trammel, Raines, and McGriff should definitely be in.

RichRed
01-09-2012, 01:18 PM
Larkin's the only no-doubter on Tom Verducci's ballot, for what it's worth.



The shortstop position evolved to another level with the all-around skills of Barry Larkin. The former Reds star in 1991 became the first shortstop to hit five homers in two games and in 1996 became the first shortstop to hit 30 homers and steal 30 bases in the same season. In his 13-year prime (1988-2000), Larkin was named to 11 All-Star teams; won nine Silver Sluggers, three Gold Gloves (none in the three seasons he led the league in Range Factor), an MVP Award and a World Series; hit .338 in the postseason; stole 25 bases a year with an 84 percent success rate; posted an .846 OPS and a 125 OPS+; and flossed his teeth very well every day and drove the team bus with a perfect safety record.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/tom_verducci/01/06/hall.of.fame.ballot/index.html#ixzz1iyzAz077

Edd Roush
01-09-2012, 01:31 PM
The 2012 Hall of Fame Ballot Collecting Gizmo posted earlier in this thread at http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/2012_hall_of_fame_ballot_collecting_gizmo/P100/ has Larkin at 90.3% of the vote with 145 ballots collected. It is looking good. I really hope nothing surprising happens...

SunDeck
01-09-2012, 01:37 PM
Larkin's the only no-doubter on Tom Verducci's ballot, for what it's worth.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/tom_verducci/01/06/hall.of.fame.ballot/index.html#ixzz1iyzAz077

I was lucky enough to be at both those games. I don't think I've every been to two in a row before or since- it was a highlight of following Barry's career to see all those home runs.

George Anderson
01-09-2012, 02:33 PM
There actually may be a reason to hope Barry doesnt make it.

"I'd be shocked if Barry doesn't get in this year," says Jim Bowden, Larkin's general manager with the Reds. "If he doesn't get in, I'm going to resign from all of my jobs. That's how confident I am."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/hallfame/story/2012-01-08/hall-of-fame-barry-larkin-jack-morris/52460366/1

savafan
01-09-2012, 02:42 PM
I may be the only one, but McGriff should be a lock for the Hall. Larkin, Trammel, Raines, and McGriff should definitely be in.

You're not the only one.

UKFlounder
01-09-2012, 02:42 PM
:D


There actually may be a reason to hope Barry doesnt make it.

"I'd be shocked if Barry doesn't get in this year," says Jim Bowden, Larkin's general manager with the Reds. "If he doesn't get in, I'm going to resign from all of my jobs. That's how confident I am."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/hallfame/story/2012-01-08/hall-of-fame-barry-larkin-jack-morris/52460366/1

medford
01-09-2012, 02:45 PM
There actually may be a reason to hope Barry doesnt make it.

"I'd be shocked if Barry doesn't get in this year," says Jim Bowden, Larkin's general manager with the Reds. "If he doesn't get in, I'm going to resign from all of my jobs. That's how confident I am."

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/hallfame/story/2012-01-08/hall-of-fame-barry-larkin-jack-morris/52460366/1

Is it too late to register "BarryLarkinClassof2013" domain yet?

RedsBaron
01-09-2012, 03:03 PM
I may be the only one, but McGriff should be a lock for the Hall. Larkin, Trammel, Raines, and McGriff should definitely be in.

I agree. As I previously posted, but for the 1994 work stoppage McGriff almost certainly would have hit another 7 HRs that year and would have reached 500 for his career. Assuming that McGriff was in fact a non-steroid user, his numbers look more impressive; had MLB remained steroid free in the 1990s, he would be doing much better in the voting.
Tim Raines should be in the HOF. He has been hurt because he was not quite as good as Rickey Henderson, his direct contemporary, but he probably was as valuable as another contemporary, Tony Gwynn, just in a different way, and Gwynn easily made the Hall.
The line of HOF eligible shortstops starts with Barry Larkin, but, once he is inducted, that line will begin with Alan Trammell, and he should be in as well.

edabbs44
01-09-2012, 03:10 PM
Hal is reporting that he is in.

kbrake
01-09-2012, 03:15 PM
Can't wait for my first trip to Cooperstown in July.

savafan
01-09-2012, 03:16 PM
http://www.foxsportsohio.com/01/09/12/Barry-Larkin-elected-to-Baseball-Hall-Of/msn_landing.html?blockID=642536&feedID=3652

RBA
01-09-2012, 03:22 PM
Is it too early to change title of thread or do we need a second source?

fearofpopvol1
01-09-2012, 03:24 PM
I still haven't made it to Cooperstown and it's nearly in my backyard. Larkin's induction will make for the perfect excuse to finally go. Very excited!

medford
01-09-2012, 03:29 PM
yeah!

edabbs44
01-09-2012, 03:30 PM
Is it too early to change title of thread or do we need a second source?

2nd source makes sense. Hal may be going all in. Or Larkin have him a scoop.

Ron Madden
01-09-2012, 03:36 PM
NM



.

TRF
01-09-2012, 03:43 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?topic_id=6261176

They just got done talking to Eric Davis.

OnBaseMachine
01-09-2012, 03:46 PM
Barry Larkin is my favorite athlete of all-time. I'm freaking pumped, can't wait for 3:00 to get here!

Larkin Fan
01-09-2012, 03:51 PM
I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for the announcement.

TRF
01-09-2012, 03:54 PM
announcement next on MLB.com

Reds Fanatic
01-09-2012, 03:59 PM
Larkin made it with 86% of the vote!

CarolinaRedleg
01-09-2012, 03:59 PM
86 percent!!!! BOOM

RedLegsToday
01-09-2012, 03:59 PM
86%! WOOHOO!

Larkin Fan
01-09-2012, 04:01 PM
It's a great day to be a Reds fan! Congratulations Barry!

RichRed
01-09-2012, 04:02 PM
I have a bad feeling that when the chips are down, these geniuses will look at Larkin's lack of counting stats and decide not to vote him in. They'll make him "pay his dues" - whatever that's supposed to mean - by waiting another year or two.

Sometimes, it's great to be wrong. :)

Congrats, Barry!

Kc61
01-09-2012, 04:02 PM
Did Kurt Stillwell make it?

Chip R
01-09-2012, 04:03 PM
WTG, Barry! :D

NJReds
01-09-2012, 04:04 PM
Barry is a true class act, congratulations for making the hall.

I'm proud to be a Reds fan today.

OnBaseMachine
01-09-2012, 04:07 PM
Congrats Barry! You will always be my favorite player.

TRF
01-09-2012, 04:08 PM
now, who were the pud heads that DIDN'T vote for him?

Caveat Emperor
01-09-2012, 04:08 PM
Thrilled to hear the news. A great day for Barry Larkin and the Cincinnati Reds!

Brutus
01-09-2012, 05:06 PM
Last year 62% of the voters thought he was worthy. This year, 86%. He must have had one heck of a 2011 season.

(Can't emphasize enough how silly I think this whole voting system is)