PDA

View Full Version : Get me Jay Bruce!



Chip R
04-22-2008, 09:05 AM
I got a feeling that with this pathetic offense and the Reds winning 1 out of ever 3 games lately, Dusty's had it up to here. I know rumor had it that he was lobbying for Bruce to come up here a couple of weeks ago but now I have to believe his efforts are going to increase until Wayne calls Bruce up. And I think it could happen within the week. I don't know who is going down or getting traded or released but I think it coud happen very soon.

GAC
04-22-2008, 09:22 AM
I hope he does. But Dusty better insert him in CF, leave him there, and show this young kid some patience. Put Patterson on the bench with Hopper and give them a backgammon board.

Votto is starting to get comfortable, and it's starting to show. Learn something from that Dusty. ;)

The debate would be where would Dusty bat him? Probably 6th behind Dunn. :lol:

cumberlandreds
04-22-2008, 09:29 AM
I'm ready for him too. Bring him up and give him a shot.This offense has nothing to lose by doing this. If he struggles you can always send him back down.

coachw513
04-22-2008, 09:33 AM
Seems to me the unspoken benefit of having Bruce up and playing in CF the majority of the time is the ability to give needed rest to Dunn and Griffey, allowing Patterson to slide in at CF and Bruce to the corner spots...if the offense is to improve, being able to specifically target off-days for those 2 while still having Bruce in the lineup would be SO much better than Hopper or Freel...plus, I'd rather have Freel occasionally spell the IF spots as the lack of power in the lineup would not be quite so dramatic...

GoReds
04-22-2008, 09:58 AM
The Reds have a bunch of players being miscast in positions they don't belong.

Dunn should be a first-baseman
Griffey should be a first-baseman
Encarnacion should be moved to first or corner OF
Keppinger should be at 2nd or 3rd base
Bruce should be a corner OF

Putting all of them on the field at the same time is just asking for more pressure on the pitching staff to pitch perfectly. Quite frankly, any ball in play right now is not just a job, it's an adventure.

Without some sort of trade to get the key players in the positions they belong, I don't think bringing up Bruce is going to solve anything.

REDREAD
04-22-2008, 10:05 AM
I disagree. Leave Homer and Bruce at AAA. It's a lost season, no sense in bringing them up right now. Maybe bring them up at the All Star break.

Neither Bruce nor Homer is going to turn this team into a contender. Let's not get overly hasty.

Reds Freak
04-22-2008, 10:18 AM
I disagree. Leave Homer and Bruce at AAA. It's a lost season, no sense in bringing them up right now. Maybe bring them up at the All Star break.

Neither Bruce nor Homer is going to turn this team into a contender. Let's not get overly hasty.

I don't disagree with your thoughts on Homer and Bruce but you've already proclaimed this season as lost? I figured this would be a year of transition but I'm not ready to throw in the towel on April 22. This team is playing about as bad as a team can play in all facets (offense, defense, pitching, base running) with the exception of a few players and still they are only 8-12. I hope the front office isn't making decisions based on this being a lost season already...

paulrichjr
04-22-2008, 10:22 AM
I disagree. Leave Homer and Bruce at AAA. It's a lost season, no sense in bringing them up right now. Maybe bring them up at the All Star break.

Neither Bruce nor Homer is going to turn this team into a contender. Let's not get overly hasty.

Wow. It is already a lost season? Things change really quick don't they? I by the way disagree. I still think the Reds can play .500 ball. That isn't a championship but that is better than they are doing now.

joshnky
04-22-2008, 10:31 AM
I disagree. Leave Homer and Bruce at AAA. It's a lost season, no sense in bringing them up right now. Maybe bring them up at the All Star break.

Neither Bruce nor Homer is going to turn this team into a contender. Let's not get overly hasty.

If its true the season is lost (I disagree) then why not cut the vets and bring up the young players to speed up their development. Bruce and Homer have both proven they can be successful at AAA. The only reason to keep Bruce down is if he's not going to play every day which seems rediculous given the current situation.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 10:36 AM
Good to know the key to this team's success is simply replacing Patterson with Bruce in the leadoff spot. :)

My take is that the Reds need to replace its mammoth number of #6 spot hitters, period. Maybe Bruce is one of them. We'll see.

P.S., I think I'll blow a gasket if the Reds promote Bailey. Talk about torpedoing a commodity.

nate
04-22-2008, 10:40 AM
Wow. It is already a lost season? Things change really quick don't they? I by the way disagree. I still think the Reds can play .500 ball. That isn't a championship but that is better than they are doing now.

My wildest dreams for this team is .500 this year. And I'm quite OK with that.

Therefore, I would actually agree with REDREAD.

Perhaps Spock has a beard in this universe.

Will M
04-22-2008, 10:47 AM
The Reds have a bunch of players being miscast in positions they don't belong.

Dunn should be a first-baseman
Griffey should be a first-baseman
Encarnacion should be moved to first or corner OF
Keppinger should be at 2nd or 3rd base
Bruce should be a corner OF

Putting all of them on the field at the same time is just asking for more pressure on the pitching staff to pitch perfectly. Quite frankly, any ball in play right now is not just a job, it's an adventure.

Without some sort of trade to get the key players in the positions they belong, I don't think bringing up Bruce is going to solve anything.

these are my thoughts exactly.

the Reds defense is still awful.
Dunn & Jr need to go to the AL.
EE to LF & Kep to 3B when Dunn is gone.
Bruce to RF when Jr is gone.
Get a CF and/or catcher as part of the return for Dunn and Jr.

The team would look like this:

1B Votto (L)
2B Phillips
SS Gonzalez ( for the rest of 2008 & 2009 )
3B Keppinger
LF EE
CF ?
RF Bruce (L)
C ?

The defense would be markedly improved. The offense would still have at least 5 good bats.

jojo
04-22-2008, 10:49 AM
Neither Bruce nor Homer is going to turn this team into a contender.

I disagree with your assessment of their potential impact.

rotnoid
04-22-2008, 10:55 AM
Neither Bruce nor Homer is going to turn this team into a contender. Let's not get overly hasty.

Maybe not individually, but together who knows. Bringing them both up creates the need for roster moves. At this point, let's cut some dead weight and see what these kids can do. Lost season or not.

Far East
04-22-2008, 10:56 AM
...Votto is starting to get comfortable, and it's starting to show. Learn something from that Dusty. ;)
Dusty has handled Votto perfectly, at the expense of a lesser production from Hatteberg. But that is better than the other way around.

LincolnparkRed
04-22-2008, 11:10 AM
Personally I am not sure why we have Freel, Hopper and Hairston. Seems redundant to have all 3 even with Hopper not being able to play the infield. Interesting to see how it plays out when Ross comes back.

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 11:33 AM
I disagree. Leave Homer and Bruce at AAA. It's a lost season, no sense in bringing them up right now. Maybe bring them up at the All Star break.

Neither Bruce nor Homer is going to turn this team into a contender. Let's not get overly hasty.

We are 20 games into the season. I would hardly call this a lost season after 20 games.

PuffyPig
04-22-2008, 11:41 AM
If its true the season is lost (I disagree) then why not cut the vets and bring up the young players to speed up their development.

Bringing young players to the majors does not always speed up thier development.

Sometimes they will regress.

RedlegJake
04-22-2008, 01:28 PM
I don't think Bruce is even close to hitting all cylinders just yet. I'd wait awhile. Ditto Bailey. When they do come up I want Bailey to be ready to stick in the rotation for good, and Bruce to be playing every day.

flyer85
04-22-2008, 01:33 PM
The roster is a mess and yet ... the Reds do little to nothing. Krivsky is going to take his take time.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 01:44 PM
The answers to what's ailing the Reds aren't in the Reds' system; trades aren't likely at this time either. Now I still very much blame Wayne for that in a macro sense (he's had 2 years), but in a micro sense, there's not much *to* do at this very moment.

flyer85
04-22-2008, 01:47 PM
The answers to what's ailing the Reds aren't in the Reds' systemOutside of Bruce that is likely true. There is so certainly no RHB off the bench ready to make an impact. What is really amusing is the redundant skill set that the bench players have. Hairston/Freel/Hopper are all basically the same player and Patterson is similar he just has a little more pop in his bat.

MikeS21
04-22-2008, 02:10 PM
It's WAY too early to write the year off. I think if you just look at the law of averages, things will improve. Sure it's been a bad three weeks, and if you extrapolate a season's worth of numbers based on 20 games, you could write the season off.

Adam Dunn has hit 2 HR's. Does anyone actually think he'll only hit 10-12 HR's and carry a sub .200 BA for the entire year? And I see no reason to believe that Bronson Arroyo is going to go 0-15 and post a 5.50 ERA for the year. If Arroyo can simply pitch at his career average levels, the team is far better off. By the same token, some of the players like Keppinger, Votto, and Harang, are going to come back down to earth and put up more modest numbers as the season progresses. It all averages out. And this team is not as bad as the small sample size is showing three weeks in. Now when we get to the end of May and are still putting up these horrendous numbers, there may be reason to panic.

Another thing to remember is that as fun as it is to imagine the kind of numbers Jay Bruce MIGHT put up when he is called up, there is a a 50-50 chance he will slump just as bad as the rest of the team. When that happens, Reds fans will bellyache that the Reds rushed him too soon (like they did with Homer Bailey last year). Leave Bailey and Bruce right where they are. Let them tear up the league and go to the AAA All-Star game and to the Future's Game. Give them the season to show their stuff and fully develop their confidence. They are both young enough that a full season at AAA won't hinder their development in the least. The very worst that could happen is that Jay Bruce will start next season as the Reds' starting RF (as the concensus #1 prospect in baseball for the second year in a row), and Bailey (who is more mature and more mentally ready) becomes the #3/#4 starter in 2009.

As someone pointed out earlier, I don't think either Bailey or Bruce being called up will get the team any closer to the play-offs.

flyer85
04-22-2008, 02:15 PM
DUnn is off to a bad power start(he is still 12th in the NL in OBP). The problem the Reds have is there are too many holes, rendancies combined with an overall lack of talent. A guy like Bruce would raise the talent level but there are 4-5 other players on the roster that also need to be replaced.

REDREAD
04-22-2008, 02:32 PM
We are 20 games into the season. I would hardly call this a lost season after 20 games.

Sure, it's not impossible to contend. We aren't mathmatically eliminated and should try to win games.

At the same time, management should look at this roster and make evaluation for next year the #1 priority. For example, do not send Coffey, EdE, Votto, or Burton to AAA this year. Make a decision on what to do with Belisle for next year.. Sort out the keepers and chaff, and try to trade the chaff for something useful.

While we should still try to win, thinking this team will contend is only fooling ourselves. Remember, this was only a 72 win team last year (while having a very healthy year last season) . This year's team has most of the same cast back. I don't see a potential 15+ win change based on the changes Wayne made, and in fairness to Wayne, it's not realistic to expect him to make that dramatic of a change in one offseason. It's reasonable to expect him to get the team to .500 (81 wins), but it's not realistic to expect him to make a 72 win team into a 87-90 win team.

REDREAD
04-22-2008, 02:34 PM
If its true the season is lost (I disagree) then why not cut the vets and bring up the young players to speed up their development. Bruce and Homer have both proven they can be successful at AAA. The only reason to keep Bruce down is if he's not going to play every day which seems rediculous given the current situation.

If Bruce and Bailey can still learn in AAA, then it's best to leave them down there.

I want them prepared to thrive when they arrive in Cincy. It was a crime to promote Homer last year, and it did more harm than good (in my opinion of course, since it can't be proven either way)

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 02:40 PM
Sure, it's not impossible to contend. We aren't mathmatically eliminated and should try to win games.

At the same time, management should look at this roster and make evaluation for next year the #1 priority. For example, do not send Coffey, EdE, Votto, or Burton to AAA this year. Make a decision on what to do with Belisle for next year.. Sort out the keepers and chaff, and try to trade the chaff for something useful.

While we should still try to win, thinking this team will contend is only fooling ourselves. Remember, this was only a 72 win team last year (while having a very healthy year last season) . This year's team has most of the same cast back. I don't see a potential 15+ win change based on the changes Wayne made, and in fairness to Wayne, it's not realistic to expect him to make that dramatic of a change in one offseason. It's reasonable to expect him to get the team to .500 (81 wins), but it's not realistic to expect him to make a 72 win team into a 87-90 win team.

Well, I highly doubt the Reds would send EdE, Votto, and Burton to AAA considering those are two of our best hitters and our second best reliever. And no, this isn't the same cast as last year. The 2007 Reds didn't have Francisco Cordero, or Edinson Volquez, or Johnny Cueto, or Joey Votto and Jeff Keppinger for a full year. I must be a fool because I do think this team can compete.

REDREAD
04-22-2008, 02:41 PM
I disagree with your assessment of their potential impact.

IMO, it's not worth the risk/reward to bring them up now.

What if you bring up Bruce and after 3 weeks, he's hitting worse than Patterson? People forget he is only 20-21 (?) years old. He's going to struggle when he's called up. In fact, I doubt he's an impact ML bat at all this year.

What if Homer pitches like he did last year? Supposedly Wayne sent him to AAA to work on things. Therefore, Homer needs to stay in AAA until he completes his development plan. Bringing up Homer before he completes his development plan sends the wrong message.. It says that the development plan was just a big joke and that he was only sent to AAA because Wayne wanted to keep a vet pitcher. Homer seems to have taken the development plan to heart. Let's not disrupt him. Bring him up only when we are sure that he's mastered what he needs to master. Belisle has shown that dominating the minors doesn't always translate into pitching effectively in the majors.

So, I will ask.. what impact do you think calling these two up will have, and why? How many hitters that were Bruce's age came up and were impact batters? Why risk derailing Homer's long term growth, since he finally seems to be working on what the Reds told him to do?

REDREAD
04-22-2008, 02:46 PM
The answers to what's ailing the Reds aren't in the Reds' system; trades aren't likely at this time either. Now I still very much blame Wayne for that in a macro sense (he's had 2 years), but in a micro sense, there's not much *to* do at this very moment.

I still think Wayne's plan was to just rebuild this season. If you analyze all his moves, he really had little intention of really going for it this year.

I suspect Wayne's plan was to use this year to break in the young pitching and maybe in 2010-2011 when Homer and Bruce are producing.. maybe go for it then.

I would've like to see Wayne target some help in offense, defense and bullpen beyond Cordero and Patterson. Actually Patterson is probably just a one year rental, even if he does work out this year.. Lincoln might be a long term help, but it would've been nice to try to address some of the other holes on this team.

jojo
04-22-2008, 02:47 PM
IMO, it's not worth the risk/reward to bring them up now.

What if you bring up Bruce and after 3 weeks, he's hitting worse than Patterson?

So what?

I'm not sure why it's a given he'll struggle either.

REDREAD
04-22-2008, 02:51 PM
Well, I highly doubt the Reds would send EdE, Votto, and Burton to AAA considering those are two of our best hitters and our second best reliever. And no, this isn't the same cast as last year. The 2007 Reds didn't have Francisco Cordero, or Edinson Volquez, or Johnny Cueto, or Joey Votto and Jeff Keppinger for a full year. I must be a fool because I do think this team can compete.

There were calls earlier to send EdE to AAA on this board.

That's great that they probably won't send down Votto and Burton.

I noticed you left off Coffey's name though. He needs to stay up all season as well. He has talent. Everyone seems to forget that he got off to about as good of a start as Burton did.

If you're convinced the team is going to contend, I'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise. My point wasn't to shout that the Reds stink. My point is that it's more important to evaluate talent this year than to make roster moves in hopes of winning 2 or 3 more games on the year.
But if you think the team is a contender, I can see why you might disagree on the need for this to be an evaluation year.

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 03:01 PM
So, I will ask.. what impact do you think calling these two up will have, and why? How many hitters that were Bruce's age came up and were impact batters? Why risk derailing Homer's long term growth, since he finally seems to be working on what the Reds told him to do?

Adam Dunn
Miguel Cabrera
Austin Kearns (.915 OPS rookie year)
Albert Pujols
David Wright
Vladimir Guerrero

Spring~Fields
04-22-2008, 03:04 PM
DUnn is off to a bad power start(he is still 12th in the NL in OBP). The problem the Reds have is there are too many holes, rendancies combined with an overall lack of talent. A guy like Bruce would raise the talent level but there are 4-5 other players on the roster that also need to be replaced.

I think after looking at the numbers last night and the past outcomes that I saw five that needed to be moved out and upgraded, then of course we run into the wall of how to upgrade them and with who along with time factor to accomplish it.

jojo
04-22-2008, 03:11 PM
So, I will ask.. what impact do you think calling these two up will have, and why? How many hitters that were Bruce's age came up and were impact batters? Why risk derailing Homer's long term growth, since he finally seems to be working on what the Reds told him to do?

Two of my personal favorites fit the bill- JR and AROD.

As a rule, the truly good players break in young.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2008, 03:14 PM
At the same time, management should look at this roster and make evaluation for next year the #1 priority. For example, do not send Coffey, EdE, Votto, or Burton to AAA this year. Make a decision on what to do with Belisle for next year.. Sort out the keepers and chaff, and try to trade the chaff for something useful.



To fully accomplish what you are saying I think that they need to bring Bruce up to get the experience at this level this year, allowing him to be introduced to the pitching at this level and to adjust this year to it. He can also pick up insight from the veterans such as Griffey et el. Otherwise you have a unknown quantity next year starting out with Bruce, just like they did this year. Tangible and intangibles will or can contribute to the success of Bruce.

I don't question that he has now more value in the present lineup than Patterson, Freel or Hopper. If Krivsky or Jockerty whichever is in charge next year can find something close to better than Freel, Hopper or Patterson I have to believe that they will be jetisoned forthwith along with Valentin. If that is true and that they are not a part of the future Reds then it would follow to get Bruce experience now so that he won't be a weak link next year.

Bruce has already performed as well as Votto up through the ranks, Votto is here and adjusting, I have to assume based on numbers only that Bruce would also.

The finest machinery or team is assembled one piece at a time.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 03:17 PM
Two of my personal favorites fit the bill- JR and AROD.

As a rule, the truly good players break in young.

I feel comfortable saying Bruce is not in either player's class.

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 03:21 PM
I feel comfortable saying Bruce is not in either player's class.

I'm not saying I agree with it because I don't, but Louisville manager Rick Sweet said he coached Griffey in the minors and he thought Bruce was just as good as Griff. I think Bruce is going to be a superstar but I don't think I'd quite put him in the Griffey class.

jojo
04-22-2008, 03:21 PM
I feel comfortable saying Bruce is not in either player's class.

He could legitimately become a 6 win player and no one should be shocked.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 03:23 PM
He could legitimately become a 6 win player and no one should be shocked.

I doubt it. Because doubt is always closer to reality.

For one, Bruce will never be a defender in either ARod's or especially Griffey's class. And that puts a massive weight on his offense making up the deficit.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2008, 03:35 PM
What other reasoning other than suppositions is there to keep Bruce down in AAA?

Age bias? Years of experience in CF automatically make Patterson, Freel or Hopper a better choice than Bruce?

Exposure risk, Bruce is so fragile that he could not handle the major league experience if everything were not as easy at the MLB level as they have been for him in the minors?

While on the other hand Bruce has accomplished numbers that are established measurements of sustained ability.

So based on suppositions they should just leave Bruce down at AAA to recreate those same numbers?

Is there anyone that thinks that Krivsky won’t bring Bruce up eventually this year?

jojo
04-22-2008, 03:35 PM
The top 10 players in the majors during 2007 as ranked by THT's RC metric permanently broke into the bigs at the tender age of 22 and that's with Ichiro included (joined the Ms as a rookie at age 27).

jojo
04-22-2008, 03:36 PM
I doubt it. Because doubt is always closer to reality.

For one, Bruce will never be a defender in either ARod's or especially Griffey's class. And that puts a massive weight on his offense making up the deficit.

Bruce will be a plus defensive RFer.

Also doubt as a default isn't particularly useful IMHO when it comes to judging reality.

The reality is that relatively few position player prospects ranked as highly as Bruce fail and a great many reach their ceilings.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 03:53 PM
Bruce will be a plus defensive RFer.

Also doubt as a default isn't particularly useful IMHO when it comes to judging reality.

The reality is that relatively few position player prospects ranked as highly as Bruce fail and a great many reach their ceilings.


While few "fail" outright, a vast majority fail to reach their ceilings. I see no reason to believe that Bruce will be a plus RF.

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 03:55 PM
I see no reason to believe that Bruce will be a plus RF.

Why?

He's always been considered a plus defender. What has he did to make you think otherwise?

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 03:56 PM
Why?

He's always been considered a plus defender. What has he did to make you think otherwise?

His bigness will make him slow very soon.

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 03:57 PM
His bigness will make him slow very soon.

He's no bigger than Larry Walker was and he was a plus defender.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 03:59 PM
He's no bigger than Larry Walker was and he was a plus defender.

I guess it's possible, but Walker was a genuine freak; expecting a copycat of that skill set/size matrix is betting on some serious star-alignment.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2008, 04:05 PM
He's no bigger than Larry Walker was and he was a plus defender.


Jay Bruce Height: 6' 3" Weight: 205
Griffey Height: 6-3 Weight: 228
Edmonds Height: 6-1 Weight: 212

bucksfan2
04-22-2008, 04:05 PM
What other reasoning other than suppositions is there to keep Bruce down in AAA?

Age bias? Years of experience in CF automatically make Patterson, Freel or Hopper a better choice than Bruce?

Exposure risk, Bruce is so fragile that he could not handle the major league experience if everything were not as easy at the MLB level as they have been for him in the minors?

While on the other hand Bruce has accomplished numbers that are established measurements of sustained ability.

So based on suppositions they should just leave Bruce down at AAA to recreate those same numbers?

Is there anyone that thinks that Krivsky won’t bring Bruce up eventually this year?

I agree that he really has nothing to prove in AAA. It would be nice to see him cut down on his strikeouts but I think that will come with time. I think the major hindrance to Bruce is the actual state of the major league club. Where are you going to play him and where are you going to hit him. He is another corner outfielder and a left handed bat. In all reality unless Jr or Dunn are traded I don't see Bruce coming up sooner than the all star break. The only other condition would be if Jr or Dunn went down, but even then if it were just a 15 day DL trip I don't think they bring Bruce up and send him down.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2008, 04:07 PM
I agree that he really has nothing to prove in AAA. It would be nice to see him cut down on his strikeouts but I think that will come with time. I think the major hindrance to Bruce is the actual state of the major league club. Where are you going to play him and where are you going to hit him. He is another corner outfielder and a left handed bat. In all reality unless Jr or Dunn are traded I don't see Bruce coming up sooner than the all star break. The only other condition would be if Jr or Dunn went down, but even then if it were just a 15 day DL trip I don't think they bring Bruce up and send him down.

He has played in CF the RF is a projection of where he will be best fitted, but he has played CF on several occasions. Batting order, you ease him down in the 6-7 slot.

jojo
04-22-2008, 04:08 PM
While few "fail" outright, a vast majority fail to reach their ceilings. I see no reason to believe that Bruce will be a plus RF.

But you also see no reason to believe Bruce will be successful. It's a filter that blurs more than it clarifies.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 04:10 PM
Jay Bruce Height: 6' 3" Weight: 205
Griffey Height: 6-3 Weight: 228
Edmonds Height: 6-1 Weight: 212

When Griffey came up (i.e. when he was good defensively), he weighed a lot less than 228.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 04:10 PM
But you also see no reason to believe Bruce will be successful. It's a filter that blurs more than it clarifies.

Where did I say he won't be successful? I think he will.

Spring~Fields
04-22-2008, 04:13 PM
But you also see no reason to believe Bruce will be successful. It's a filter that blurs more than it clarifies.

If that reasoning were true, and I know that you are challenging it.

If that reasoning were true, then we as fans of the Reds are toast because it is far easier to see no reason for the Reds pitchers to ever succeed than Jay Bruce as a fielder or batter to succeed. In last ten years the Reds have succeeded with some outfielders, where it is questionable if they have succeeded with any pitchers during that time frame.

Matt700wlw
04-22-2008, 04:20 PM
The roster is a mess and yet ... the Reds do little to nothing. Krivsky is going to take his take time.

Take too much and he'll end up out of a job.

Matt700wlw
04-22-2008, 04:23 PM
Why?

He's always been considered a plus defender. What has he did to make you think otherwise?

Because he's in the Reds system. ;)

TOBTTReds
04-22-2008, 04:30 PM
Jay Bruce Height: 6' 3" Weight: 205
Griffey Height: 6-3 Weight: 228
Edmonds Height: 6-1 Weight: 212

I'm going out on a limb to say JB is weighs more than 205...more like 220.

Matt700wlw
04-22-2008, 04:32 PM
Bruce looked to have some wheels on him in Spring Training for what it's worth...

jojo
04-22-2008, 05:37 PM
Where did I say he won't be successful? I think he will.

What is your definition of successful for Bruce (i.e. what is the most likely performance for him in your mind)?

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 05:57 PM
What is your definition of successful for Bruce (i.e. what is the most likely performance for him in your mind)?

From a defensive standpoint, I just don't know; I'll be honest. I'd have to see him quite a bit more in the field to determine that.

Offensively, at age 21, I'd guess he looks a bit like Kearns' offensively; fairly patient, line-drive doubles power, with a bit of homer pop on a dead pull. .800 to .850 OPS, .350-.375 OB. Later on, developing more power, Chipper Jones not a bad comp. I'd take him on the club in a heartbeat, but I'm very much against him playing CF due to health concerns and the need for a plus CF.

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 06:13 PM
Bruce has great power to all fields. Two his of three homeruns this season have been to the opposite field - that what makes him special. Here is what Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus said about his power:

The Good: Bruce is loaded with both tools and skills. He's a fantastic hitter who is seemingly incapable of light contact, projecting as a .300+ hitter who approaches 100 extra-base hits annually. He has average to slightly-above speed and has proven to be surprisingly capable in center field, while also showcasing a strong arm. He supplements his natural abilities with strong makeup and an outstanding work ethic.

100 extra-base hits is very, very rare and I don't really expect that, but that someone as respected as Goldstein is making comments like that shows you how talented Bruce is. I think he can be a .315-.330 hitter with 35-40 doubles and 35-40 homeruns a year. He doesn't walk as much as a guy like Dunn, but everytime I watch him he works the count deep and gets into favorable hitter counts. As more pitchers begin to fear him then I suspect he'll draw plenty of walks and push his OBP over .400. The fact that he plays good defense is a huge bonus IMO.

Gainesville Red
04-22-2008, 06:46 PM
The Good:

Just curious, did he list a The Bad section?

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 06:53 PM
Just curious, did he list a The Bad section?

He said anything in the bad section about Bruce was just nitpicking. He said he's anything but a hacker, but sometimes he'll swing at a pitch he would be better served by letting go. The other "bad" was he'll likely begin his career as a CFer but he better profiles as a RFer.

He projects him to be a perennial All-Star and MVP candidate.

jojo
04-22-2008, 08:37 PM
Austin Kearns is listed at 6'3" and 240 lbs and he's been one of the best defensive right fielders in the majors over the last three years....

reds44
04-22-2008, 08:41 PM
How big was Kearns when he came up?

The reason Bruce can play CF right now is because he is still a semi thin guy. His body is still going to fill out. He can play CF now, and maybe next year, but when he starts to get up in his mid 20's I wouldn't be surprised for him to go up into the 230's.

gm
04-23-2008, 03:07 AM
"Get me Mays or I'll quit!"

Chip's thread title is a spin off of Leo Durocher's famous line back in the summer of '51, when the NY (baseball) Giants were below .500 and Willie Mays was batting .477 and playing outstanding CF defense for the AAA Minneapolis club.

Trouble was, the Giants already had 4 African American players on the roster and the thought of 5 blacks outnumbering 4 whites on a side was too much controversy for Horace Stoneham (but not for Leo, he would've loved to be the first Mgr to field such a lineup) In the end, Artie Wilson was sent down to make room for Mays, and the Giants went on to win the pennant on Bobby Thomson's HR (Mays batted .274, IIRC)

We've come a long way in 57 years. I doubt Baker will threaten to quit if Bruce isn't called up, and I suspect Jay won't need to hit .477 to get a promotion

mth123
04-23-2008, 04:59 AM
"Get me Mays or I'll quit!"

Chip's thread title is a spin off of Leo Durocher's famous line back in the summer of '51, when the NY (baseball) Giants were below .500 and Willie Mays was batting .477 and playing outstanding CF defense for the AAA Minneapolis club.

Trouble was, the Giants already had 4 African American players on the roster and the thought of 5 blacks outnumbering 4 whites on a side was too much controversy for Horace Stoneham (but not for Leo, he would've loved to be the first Mgr to field such a lineup) In the end, Artie Wilson was sent down to make room for Mays, and the Giants went on to win the pennant on Bobby Thomson's HR (Mays batted .274, IIRC)

We've come a long way in 57 years. I doubt Baker will threaten to quit if Bruce isn't called up, and I suspect Jay won't need to hit .477 to get a promotion

Nice post. A good story that I'm sure many didn't know and very related to the topic of the thread.

klw
04-23-2008, 08:36 AM
"Get me Mays or I'll quit!"

Chip's thread title is a spin off of Leo Durocher's famous line back in the summer of '51, when the NY (baseball) Giants were below .500 and Willie Mays was batting .477 and playing outstanding CF defense for the AAA Minneapolis club.

There I was thinking he was being Shakespearean.

"A Bruce! A Bruce! My Kingdom for a Bruce!"

"To Bruce or not to Bruce- that is the question"

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 09:17 AM
The Good: Bruce is loaded with both tools and skills. He's a fantastic hitter who is seemingly incapable of light contact, projecting as a .300+ hitter who approaches 100 extra-base hits annually. He has average to slightly-above speed and has proven to be surprisingly capable in center field, while also showcasing a strong arm. He supplements his natural abilities with strong makeup and an outstanding work ethic.

100 extra-base hits is very, very rare and I don't really expect that, but that someone as respected as Goldstein is making comments like that shows you how talented Bruce is.

It is very rare - it's only been done fifteen times in baseball history. Only three players have done it twice: Lou Gehrig, Chuck Klein and Todd Helton. Griffey's never done it, nor did Mays or Aaron. (note: the + sign indicates HOF, the asterisk indicates a lefthander).



Rank Player (age that year) Extra-Base Hits Year Bats
1. Babe Ruth+* (26) 119 1921 L
2. Lou Gehrig+* (24) 117 1927 L
3. Barry Bonds* (36) 107 2001 L
Chuck Klein+* (25) 107 1930 L
5. Todd Helton* (27) 105 2001 L
6. Albert Belle (28) 103 1995 R
Hank Greenberg+ (26) 103 1937 R
Todd Helton* (26) 103 2000 L
Chuck Klein+* (27) 103 1932 L
Stan Musial+* (27) 103 1948 L
Sammy Sosa (32) 103 2001 R
12. Rogers Hornsby+ (26) 102 1922 R
13. Jimmie Foxx+ (24) 100 1932 R
Lou Gehrig+* (27) 100 1930 L
Luis Gonzalez* (33) 100 2001 L

Chip R
04-23-2008, 10:06 AM
"Get me Mays or I'll quit!"

Chip's thread title is a spin off of Leo Durocher's famous line back in the summer of '51, when the NY (baseball) Giants were below .500 and Willie Mays was batting .477 and playing outstanding CF defense for the AAA Minneapolis club.



Purely unintentional. In the account I heard, Leo was a little less demanding. Of course it was from his autobiography and Leo portrayed himself as a much sweeter guy than he really was.

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 12:06 PM
Purely unintentional. In the account I heard, Leo was a little less demanding. Of course it was from his autobiography and Leo portrayed himself as a much sweeter guy than he really was.

Chip here is a good thread and relavent to this thread topic from the minor leagues forum.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1611976#post1611976

gm
04-23-2008, 05:05 PM
Purely unintentional. In the account I heard, Leo was a little less demanding. Of course it was from his autobiography and Leo portrayed himself as a much sweeter guy than he really was.

The account that I read was from "The Miracle at Coogan's Bluff" by Kiernan. I think it's out of print, which is a shame. Very good read about an amazing baseball season

flyer85
04-23-2008, 05:13 PM
It is very rare - it's only been done fifteen times in baseball history. Only three players have done it twice: Lou Gehrig, Chuck Klein and Todd Helton. Griffey's never done it, nor did Mays or Aaron. (note: the + sign indicates HOF, the asterisk indicates a lefthander).and the Helton ones were Coors field induced(just like the Holliday MVP award) and Bonds, Sosa, Belle and Gonzo were likely steriod induced.