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WMR
04-22-2008, 02:21 PM
The positives of the Dusty era versus the Negatives

Positives
- Handling of Votto
- Handling of EE


Negatives
Lineup Construction


Help me build upon this list. Do the positives outweigh the negatives? I'm a fairly big Dusty critic, but I do feel it incumbent upon me to give him his due where it is well-deserved.

OnBaseMachine
04-22-2008, 02:23 PM
The handling of Johnny Cueto is a positive, as in pulling him before 100 pitches in each start.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 02:26 PM
Incomplete.

bucksfan2
04-22-2008, 02:34 PM
The positives of the Dusty era versus the Negatives

Positives
- Handling of Votto
- Handling of EE


Negatives
Lineup Construction


Help me build upon this list. Do the positives outweigh the negatives? I'm a fairly big Dusty critic, but I do feel it incumbent upon me to give him his due where it is well-deserved.

I don't think that the lineup construction has anything to do with the reds poor start. IMO the poor start is a lack of execution by the players, not Dusty. Dusty can't help it that Dunn is still on the interstate. He can't help it that Edwin is having trouble defensively. He can't help it that Valentine isn't a catcher anymore. Can he help it that his bench consists of Hopper, Freel, Hatty, Valentine, and Castro (Until yesterday)?

I give him time. He is still trying to figure out what he has on this team. It takes a manager some time to understand his team. In all reality what do you do with a team when you two best power hitters are struggling? What do you do with a bench that has a deal of flexibility but doesn't have a quaility bat?

TRF
04-22-2008, 02:41 PM
Incomplete.

A ledger is always incomplete until the book is closed. This one has pages in it. What do you see as written in that book thus far?

SMcGavin
04-22-2008, 02:41 PM
Dusty was vocal this spring about the best players making the team regardless of contract. I think that had something to do with Stanton being gone. I also thought I heard he was unhappy with Fogg and may have been part of his removal from the rotation.

The only negatives I have for Dusty thus far are lineup construction and in-game decisions at the plate (e.g. having Encarnacion bunt earlier this year). I've been pleasantly surprised by the way he's handled the young arms.

Benihana
04-22-2008, 02:46 PM
Positive: Overall treatment of the pitching staff so far, especially the rookies.

Kc61
04-22-2008, 02:52 PM
To me the major points are:

Positive -- Handling of both starting pitchers and bullpen. Makes a big point of not overworking bullpen and uses guys in reasonably proper situations.

Neutral -- Selecting players for particular games. In game strategy.

Less happy -- Batting order construction.

Chip R
04-22-2008, 02:53 PM
The biggest fears about Dusty before he came here was his fondness for vets and inability to work with younger players. He also had a rep for overusing starting pitchers. Both fears have been unfounded so far.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 02:54 PM
A ledger is always incomplete until the book is closed. This one has pages in it. What do you see as written in that book thus far?

Nothing.

bucksfan2
04-22-2008, 03:07 PM
How many more games do you think the reds would have won had they used the Jamsian way of thinking to construct a lineup?

mbgrayson
04-22-2008, 03:08 PM
The positives of the Dusty era versus the Negatives

Positives
- Handling of Votto
- Handling of EE


Negatives
Lineup Construction



I agree that it is a positive that Dusty has hung with EE, and that Votto appears to be winning more playing time. I would not so broadly endorse his "handling" of them.

For example, is it just a coincidence that Votto only has one walk all season, after Baker criticized him in spring training and said he needed to be "more aggressive"?

Votto's walk rate and pitches seen per plate appearance numbers are way down. There may well have been some truth in Votto needing to be more aggressive, but he won't be a 'league average' or better firstbaseman if he only walks once every three weeks.

In general, I like listening to Dusty . He is likeable, and has great baseball history. I think he has a very positive and good rapport with the players, and I like that.

On Dusty's handling of the pitching staff, I am happy to see him limit the pitch counts of the yougsters. So far they are very reasonable, and they have also had extra rest when there were off days, while Harang stayed on an every fifth day pattern.

I was nervous that he left Arroyo in one inning too long the other day. I know there were no good alternatives, and the bullpen was gassed. Hopefully that was an exception. Arroyo has not done well in the several starts after he has a high pitch count.

It bothered me to see that Dusty didn't realize how bad Patterson's slump was. Every TV and radio announcer, and the print media, have mentioned this for several days now. He could only have missed this if he totally buried his head in the sand. A good manager should have been aware of this slump, whether he can 'fix' it or not.

I agree it is way too early to make any real conclusions. It is an incomplete record.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-22-2008, 03:41 PM
I'm not a big fan of his all too common use of the double switch. Maybe label this one as bench management? Then again I guess it's hard to fault him given what he has on the bench.

*BaseClogger*
04-22-2008, 03:59 PM
If he had anything to do with it: Mike Stanton and Juan Castro are gone...

*BaseClogger*
04-22-2008, 03:59 PM
I don't think that the lineup construction has anything to do with the reds poor start. IMO the poor start is a lack of execution by the players, not Dusty. Dusty can't help it that Dunn is still on the interstate. He can't help it that Edwin is having trouble defensively. He can't help it that Valentine isn't a catcher anymore. Can he help it that his bench consists of Hopper, Freel, Hatty, Valentine, and Castro (Until yesterday)?

I give him time. He is still trying to figure out what he has on this team. It takes a manager some time to understand his team. In all reality what do you do with a team when you two best power hitters are struggling? What do you do with a bench that has a deal of flexibility but doesn't have a quaility bat?

How many times has Corey Patterson batted leadoff?

TRF
04-22-2008, 04:46 PM
Nothing.

Well, that's just silly.

He's obviously had a hand in things, and patterns are starting to develop.

Positive:


How he handles the players in the press. To me, this is huge. EE is raking right now, and Dusty while not dismissing Encarnacion's faults points out his positives in the press. Unlike Marty B, Dusty actually PROMOTES his product.
Young pitchers handled with relative care. I thought Volquez threw too many pitches in his last start, but I think Dusty wanted him to be in position to get the win.
Quick hook on Fogg. Belisle didn't pitch any better, but it shows that Dusty wasn't too pleased with Fogg. MB better have a better game his next outing.
Votto has become a regular fixture at 1B. This is more of a no-brainer. Had McKannen gotten the job, I'd have expected the same thing. Narron, not so much.
Paul Bako. Yes, Paul Bako. not for his bat, that's a mirage. But how he's handled the young pitchers has been great. Valentin SHOULD have been an asset, but his horrible catching skills destroy his ability to communicate with his latin pitchers.Negative:


Corey Patterson. wow, just... wow. What an abysmal offensive player. His D is great, but if he's in the lineup, he should be battign 8th.
Brandon Phillips. Sticking him in the cleanup spot is a baaaad idea. BP is an out machine. But he does have SOME pop, not as much as I think HE thinks he does. Right now he needs to get BP untracked.
The above two bring me to lineup construction. I think Dusty over and under thinks his lineup. The CF bats leadoff. Then he overthinks everything else.I don't get a sense of how he's handled the bullpen. I don't know if Weathers is "taking one for the team" with his DL stint. Burton's ERA isn't indicative of his performance, though he's hit a little rough patch. Affeldt has been very good in relief, I'm hoping that isn't enough to give him a start.

I really like how he's urged Jr. to be more vocal, and we are seeing it already. In Volquez' last start Jr. let Hopper and Freel know that going up hacking at the 1st pitch when their pitcher had just come off the mound and was near 100 pitches was a bad thing. Jr. needs to assert some authority on this team. Dusty has nudged him in that direction.

The ledger on Dusty isn't empty. But he's dispelling some myths about him with how he's handling a team with a mix of youth and vets.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 05:40 PM
I'm just not ready to proclaim anything Dusty's done as either a pattern or a method at this point.

RedlegJake
04-22-2008, 06:01 PM
I'm just not ready to proclaim anything Dusty's done as either a pattern or a method at this point.

Me either. Way too early. Lets see how he's been handling the young pitchers in August, and let's see if he adjusts the lineup as the season wears on if the problems we've seen are still there. Has his aggressive hitting stance gotten in BP's way? Or Dunn's? Way too early, imo, to tell anything really.

WMR
04-22-2008, 06:05 PM
The point of this thread was to discuss what he has DONE TO THIS POINT, not make the final declaration on Dusty Baker as Reds manager. Ledgers change all the time.

Falls City Beer
04-22-2008, 06:19 PM
The point of this thread was to discuss what he has DONE TO THIS POINT, not make the final declaration on Dusty Baker as Reds manager. Ledgers change all the time.

A ledger should be statements of fact, simple unadorned observations. I see a whole lot of conclusions in this here "ledger."

jojo
04-22-2008, 07:49 PM
I think it's way too early to say anything about Dusty as a Red other than his impact on wins probably isn't going to be dramatic one way or the other.