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WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 07:16 PM
How is Dusty not the first (or 2nd behind the owner) guy that Krivsky notifies when signing somebody?

Exactly. But the story goes along with his handling of The Trade when advisors said no and Wayne did what he wanted to anyway.

You can do this stuff if you win. The Reds didn't win.

wally post
04-23-2008, 07:34 PM
Kudos to Boss and all who have kept this site from shutting down under all this action!!
I am absolutely thrilled with this. GREAT news. First, we conquer our division, and then the world!!! Bwa ha ha ha ha!! (yay)

corkedbat
04-23-2008, 07:37 PM
I don't think a 9-12 start was enough to get WK fired, I don't think poor internal comunications or external communications or THE TRADE or dead money or poor roster construction orany one single thing got Krivsky fired. I think all of them together were enough.

Krivsky was in the last year of his contract and BCast had to make a decision on whether to re-up him or not and I think he finally made the decision that he would not extend him, so why wait until they might be 12-25 or 18-40?

Especially when he had someone that he trusted and respected in-house in Jocketty. I think that Krivsky did some positive things during his tenure, but there were enough questionable decision also to keep me from second-guessing the move.

I think changes are coming and the period between now and the trading deadline should be most interesting.

There are some bright spots on this club, but there are more than enough things not to like. I believe that Jocketty has had more than enough timeto identify some that he doesn't care ofr and he doesn't strike me as someone who is going to wait months to put his own stamp on a club he runs.

It wouldn't surprise me if he receives congratulatory calls from former trading partners in the next couple of days and it would surprise me even less if he didn't use those calls to start stoking the trade fires - starting with fortifying the bench.

gm
04-23-2008, 08:00 PM
Yeah, like 21 games will tell you that much;)

I think Cast needs some prozac.

BCast, wearing long black cape and in a deep voice right out of The Empire Strikes Back

"Apology accepted, Commander Krivsky"

(cue the stormtrooper music)

Dum Dum Dum, duh-da-dah, duh-da-dah...

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 08:25 PM
After reading many articles written on this topic, I noted (and, for the most part, rightfully so) that most of the authors were quick to bring up Arroyo as Wayne's claim to fame. His biggest and best move. The one that put him on the map.

Lucky for him that he won't be around for the end of the Arroyo story, as I have a feeling that this one is going to end badly. That extension is looking worse by the day.

reds44
04-23-2008, 08:27 PM
After reading many articles written on this topic, I noted (and, for the most part, rightfully so) that most of the authors were quick to bring up Arroyo as Wayne's claim to fame. His biggest and best move. The one that put him on the map.

Lucky for him that he won't be around for the end of the Arroyo story, as I have a feeling that this one is going to end badly. That extension is looking worse by the day.
Krivsky's claim to fame may be giving out extensions that were not needed. Arroyo, Freel, Coffey, Cormier.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 08:29 PM
2 year deal for Stanton, ANOTHER deal for Castro,

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 08:36 PM
The Reds have what appears to be good starting pitching for the first time in decades.

The Reds have what appears to be healthy pitching prospects moving steadily up the talent pipeline in the minor leagues.

The Reds are continuing to develop bats, many of which were acquired in the two recent drafts of the Krivsky era.

At the end of the day, I was a Wayne Krivsky supporter. He was working within the constraints of small market -- small market demands you nibble at the corners for some things while spending big money on others. Small market demands you gamble occasionally and hope to land the big score. He swung and miss on a few, he hit big on a few others.

The core of this team (Votto, Phillips, Keppinger, Dunn, Cueto, Volquez, Harang) WILL win. I'd lay my own money that they will be a postseason team within the next two years. Jocketty will get the credit, but it will be Krivsky that laid the foundation for this to happen.

I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 08:41 PM
The Reds have what appears to be good starting pitching for the first time in decades.

The Reds have what appears to be healthy pitching prospects moving steadily up the talent pipeline in the minor leagues.

The Reds are continuing to develop bats, many of which were acquired in the two recent drafts of the Krivsky era.

At the end of the day, I was a Wayne Krivsky supporter. He was working within the constraints of small market -- small market demands you nibble at the corners for some things while spending big money on others. Small market demands you gamble occasionally and hope to land the big score. He swung and miss on a few, he hit big on a few others.

The core of this team (Votto, Phillips, Keppinger, Dunn, Cueto, Volquez, Harang) WILL win. I'd lay my own money that they will be a postseason team within the next two years. Jocketty will get the credit, but it will be Krivsky that laid the foundation for this to happen.

I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

Good post. I agree with it all.

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 08:47 PM
Krivsky's claim to fame may be giving out extensions that were not needed. Arroyo, Freel, Coffey, Cormier.

Owner needs to sign off on stuff like that.

jojo
04-23-2008, 08:52 PM
Not aimed at me, but I'd take Kemp without even blinking. 3 years younger. Better defender. No health concerns. Easy call.

He's a righty too.

jojo
04-23-2008, 08:56 PM
I was just posting in a different Wayne thread that likely Bob was on the bubble about Wayne and that somewhere during a normal conversation things went from talking about the team to Wayne negotiating for his job.

Pedro mention being worried about BCast in a different thread (can't keep them all straight). I can't say that I disagree after reading this.

I'm still waiting for Bob C to fire himself......remember that glorious presser?

Always Red
04-23-2008, 08:58 PM
I'm still waiting for Bob C to fire himself......remember that glorious presser?

Is there anyone else left to fire...or blame?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:00 PM
The Reds have what appears to be good starting pitching for the first time in decades.

The Reds have more interesting starting pitching candidates than they've had in a long time--that's not a fait accompli on the "good starting pitching" thing, however.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:08 PM
The Reds have more interesting starting pitching candidates than they've had in a long time--that's not a fait accompli on the "good starting pitching" thing, however.

They're healthy, they throw hard, they miss bats.

Those three things alone make Harang, Cueto, and Volquez better than ANYTHING that has put on the wishbone-C in almost 20 years.

They're good. Sustaining that good? A different story -- you're correct about that. But I prefer starting from this point than discussing whether Jimmy Haynes or Osvaldo Fernandez can make it happen.

vaticanplum
04-23-2008, 09:08 PM
Just skimmed through the whole thread and my head is still spinning. I had about a hundred responses to make but I'm not sure how to condense them.

Re: Krivsky's future career, I really believe the guy has the potential to be a really really good GM. Maybe not great, but more than serviceable under the right circumstances. Our pathetic team was in shambles when he got here, but nevertheless he was kind of handed an awful lot for a first-time GM. A brand-new owner dying to spend money and, I'm guessing, a hell of a lot of freedom. All that considered, he did pretty well. Give 10 three year olds a shiny fragile new toy: seven will break it, two will be too scared to touch it, and one will play with it and not destroy it. Krivsky was that one kid. Nothing dramatic but he kept it together. More than that, he made some truly interesting moves. Like them or hate them, but they were different, and this team needed a creative shakeup more than anything else.

He overstepped at times and he was careless at times. he could have done a lot worse given his situation. I think that with tighter reins and a thinner checkbook he could be a fascinating GM. I'd love to see what he'd do with a team like Kansas City -- and that's not a knock. KC has great potential at the moment but will do nothing without good guidance.

I like Krivsky. I love Jocketty. I do think it's becoming clearer and clearer that Castellini is a loose cannon, and not necessarily in a good way. Under normal circumstances, I'd not be ok at all with someone shrewdly hired to take someone else's place in a few months (as M2 alluded to), I'd not be ok with a competent person fired for personality reasons (welcome to earth: we don't all get along), I'd not be ok with a GM hired for reasons of "losing" 21 games into the season. In this case, the replacement is Jocketty, so I don't have much choice but to let it slide. That makes me feel a little dirty, honestly, so Castellini bears the brunt of that for me.

I dunno...there's a ton here we don't know (and probably never will, and I think that's good). It's hard for me to hold Krivsky responsible for ALL the missteps, all the wasted money, and also to be ok with his sudden firing. If he was given so much freedom that all of the bad moves and money can be attributed directly and solely to him, then a sudden firing is just plain unfair. If you're his boss, you owe it to him to pull in the reins first and see what happens. If his moves had higher-level input or even approval, then the firing seems like a knee-jerk, responsibility-avoiding move by a crazy dude. I don't like that in charge of my organization. But...you know, Jocketty.

Whatever. Just sign Dunn already, will you.

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 09:09 PM
This is from Fay's blog tonight. Quotes from Krivsky:



Wayne Krivsky truly seemed blind-sided by the news of his firing. He spoke to the media Wednesday afternoon at the ball park, and even got a little emotional about halfway through.

“I did not see this coming all,” Krivsky said. “Having said that, I told Bob (Castellini) I was real appreciative of the opportunity. I worked 29 years to get an opportunity like this in the city of Cincinnati, starving for a winner, (with a) great sports town and great tradition, and I still think it’s a gold mine. I really do. That’s what hurts so much - not to see the job through to the end and bring that winner to Cincinnati.”

There was one thing Krivsky wanted to set straight, and that was about reliever Rheal Cormier. Cormier was designated for assignment early last season after a poor start, and was reportedly owed about $2.25 million.

“Just so you all know, there was a whole bunch of money in one transaction that paid for Rheal Cormier’s contract,” Krivsky said.

“I guess I can come forward with that right now. There was $2.08 million in one transaction that paid for his contract specifically, so if you can wipe that one off my ledger, I’d appreciate that,” Krivsky said.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 09:10 PM
Whatever. Just sign Dunn already, will you.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is in the cards, but with a new boss in town, I guess that question is still as unanswered as it was before.

vaticanplum
04-23-2008, 09:11 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if this is in the cards, but with a new boss in town, I guess that question is still as unanswered as it was before.

I have always gotten the impression that Krivsky was a big Dunn fan. I have no idea what's going on with that situation, really.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:13 PM
They're healthy, they throw hard, they miss bats.

Those three things alone make Harang, Cueto, and Volquez better than ANYTHING that has put on the wishbone-C in almost 20 years.

They're good. Sustaining that good? A different story -- you're correct about that. But I prefer starting from this point than discussing whether Jimmy Haynes or Osvaldo Fernandez can make it happen.

And only one of those guys was acquired by Krivksy--in the only slam-dunk deal he made in his two years here.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:13 PM
I have always gotten the impression that Krivsky was a big Dunn fan. I have no idea what's going on with that situation, really.

I always got the opposite read -- Krivsky tolerated Dunn because he understood his production would be difficult to replicate, whereas Casty really seemed to like Dunn and wanted to make him a focal point of things.

There was massive speculation that a LTC would be offered to Dunn after he and Casty sat down for their 1-on-1 dinner, and that never materialized.

Maybe that was yet another thing that Casty and Krivsky didn't see eye-to-eye on?

Chip R
04-23-2008, 09:13 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if this is in the cards, but with a new boss in town, I guess that question is still as unanswered as it was before.


If part of the reason for Wayne's sacking was the bad contracts, Walt may be a little shy to sign anyone to a big money deal, not to mention a mega-huge deal like Dunn.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 09:15 PM
Could be.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:19 PM
And only one of those guys was acquired by Krivksy--in the only slam-dunk deal he made in his two years here.

Yup. But, I tend to look at the larger picture.

Harang is going to be a Red on a long-enough deal to keep him around for a window of competition thanks in no small part to Krivsky's contract maneuverings.

Volquez -- what else can you say? I don't care what Hamilton does, if this is what we can expect as a baseline from Volquez, he posterized them on that deal.

Cueto avoided being on a first-name basis with Tim Kremcheck. The last time the Reds had young fireballers in the minors that were going to charge their way into Cincinnati, things turned out differently. Where have you gone Thomas Pauley and Richie Gardner?

Drafting talented players is half the battle -- but an idiot with a scouting department and a subscription to Baseball America can bring talent into an organization. This Reds regime seems to actually have aptitude for DEVELOPING talent through the minors. Players -- gasp -- seem to get better as they go along.

Krivsky deserves a lot of credit for that, IMO.

cincrazy
04-23-2008, 09:21 PM
I wish Wayne nothing but the best. I think he's truly talented as a talent evaluator, and he'll land on his feet somewhere. Good luck.

Bob, I sure as hell hope you know what you're doing. A little too Steinbrenner'esque for my tastes, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Jocketty.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:24 PM
I wish Wayne nothing but the best. I think he's truly talented as a talent evaluator, and he'll land on his feet somewhere. Good luck.

Bob, I sure as hell hope you know what you're doing. A little too Steinbrenner'esque for my tastes, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Jocketty.

Sure wouldn't want a demanding owner, would we?

jojo
04-23-2008, 09:25 PM
If part of the reason for Wayne's sacking was the bad contracts, Walt may be a little shy to sign anyone to a big money deal, not to mention a mega-huge deal like Dunn.

Walt's got the credibility to sustain losing. Krivsky isn't "proven".

I think this philosophy will color a lot of personnel moves in the future.

Maybe the farm will be leveraged.

Reds Nd2
04-23-2008, 09:25 PM
Hey, been busy the past two weeks. Anything noteworthy happen with the Reds?

For the record, I think this is the best Reds team to take the field in eight years even if it is still a flawed enterprise. I don't think the 9-12 start is reason for concern and it certainly isn't reason to dump Krivsky.

Krivsky got fired because as soon as Walt Jocketty showed up he was always going to be fired for the first convenient excuse. That's just unconscious knowledge.

Still doesn't mean that I have to like it any better.


At the end of the day, I was a Wayne Krivsky supporter. He was working within the constraints of small market -- small market demands you nibble at the corners for some things while spending big money on others. Small market demands you gamble occasionally and hope to land the big score. He swung and miss on a few, he hit big on a few others.

The core of this team (Votto, Phillips, Keppinger, Dunn, Cueto, Volquez, Harang) WILL win. I'd lay my own money that they will be a postseason team within the next two years. Jocketty will get the credit, but it will be Krivsky that laid the foundation for this to happen.

I just want to give props to Wayne Krivsky for not destroying that foundation in a last ditch effort to stave off the specter of one Mr. Jocketty.


I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

He'll have another job in baseball, just as soon as he wishes. No doubt.

WVRed
04-23-2008, 09:26 PM
This is from Fay's blog tonight. Quotes from Krivsky:

Jocketty can be an excellent GM if he is provided the money to back up the moves. Of course, the same could be said for Jim Bowden.

This is the same guy who turned Placido Polanco and Bud Smith into Scott Rolen. Rolen had more of an impact than either of the two mentioned while wearing Cardinal red.

People are quick to give Krivsky credit for the farm development, but a lot of that credit should go to the scouting department and development staff. If anything, Krivsky's two first round picks, Drew Stubbs and Devin Mesorasco, have yet to prove anything in the minors.

Only problem is, Jocketty really isn't much better when it comes to minor league development. This is Jim Bowden without the leather pants.

IMO, this is a move that was made to signal the Reds into mid-market territory. Couple this with Dusty Baker and it shows the Reds are willing to spend money to get recognizable baseball people into the organization. If the atmosphere can change, there will be an opportunity to gain some veteran players who might consider meshing with the young talent we have.

At the same time, both of the moves could very easily backfire.

GAC
04-23-2008, 09:28 PM
Wow, this is great news.

Even if you loved Wayne, you've got to love the fact that Cast is not complacent and will not accept mediocrity. This is great.

Wayne certianly wasn't the worse GM we had. He brought in some talent. His supporters have a good point there, but he also made many mistakes.

I'm so pumped about having Jocketty take over. This is the most optimisitc I've been about this club in a LONG time.

Way to kick some booty Cast. It's great having an owner that wants to win, instead of being on the perpetual 5 year plan.

Who is gonna kick Cast's booty? As far as I'm concerned, as the owner, he is solely responsible for this situation. So why is he getting a free pass as if all this is WK's fault?

He HIRED Krivsky
Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.
Bob had nothing to do, no involvement (giving his OK) to even those bad deals/trades that turned awry?

I'm not saying the GM doesn't carry any culpibility. Wayne certainly does. And there are probably several sound reasons to justify his firing. The timing really sucked. Totally classless of this owner who sites his impatience as the sole reason IMO. But I'm also tired of an owner who keeps saying he's tired of losing, want's to win now (which seems to appease some), and as far as I'm concerned is the main culprit.

Ya gotta have your scapegoat I guess.

We all pretty much knew that when Jocketty was brought in as a "special advisor" that Wayne's days were numbered.

They hired a BIG NAME manager, and now have their BIG NAME GM. I'm really impressed. :rolleyes:

Symbolism over substance as far as I'm concerned.

There were sound reasons as to why these two were FIRED from their previous jobs. They had no farm system in St. Louis, and Jocketty acknowledges that this is an area where he has no expertise, and is a weakness. Yes, that is a concern for me. He's the type of guy that, IMHO, will trade away any future we have, even if it is a Jay Bruce, as long as it mets Bob C's vision of WIN NOW.

Thank God I didn't buy any ticket packages this year. I have a feeling it's gonna get ugly.

I wonder how much impatience Bob will have with the "Walt and Dusty Show"?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:29 PM
I don't think the "core" of this team is very good. If this team is going to be a postseason team, Walt Jocketty's going to have to make some very big changes to get them there, and as a result, will likely lay claim to bigger chunk of the credit.

But I think it's entirely possible that even Jocketty can't get this team to where they want to go. And I certainly don't think it's at all a given that Krivsky was on the winning track.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:30 PM
Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.

Nothing Krivsky said today even hinted at this being fact.

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 09:30 PM
Sure wouldn't want a demanding owner, would we?

Demanding is one thing, unrealistically insane is quite another.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:31 PM
Demanding is one thing, unrealistically insane is quite another.

Wayne wasn't taking this team to the postseason. All the other stuff is details.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:31 PM
Demanding is one thing, unrealistically insane is quite another.
It depends how much money he is willing to dish out.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 09:32 PM
Walt's got the credibility to sustain losing. Krivsky isn't "proven".

I think this philosophy will color a lot of personnel moves in the future.

Maybe the farm will be leveraged.

Perhaps. But they may feel Bruce's production could replace Dunn's and with the bonus that he's young and cheap and plays better defense. Walt may go to Bob and say, "Bob, I'd like to sign Dunn to a multi-year deal for big, big money." Bob says, "Geez, Walt, I like the guy but that's a lot of money. We all liked Bronson too but look how that went."

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:33 PM
I don't think the "core" of this team is very good. If this team is going to be a postseason team, Walt Jocketty's going to have to make some very big changes to get them there, and as a result, will likely lay claim to bigger chunk of the credit.

The majority of what this team needs is already in this team's system.

Jay Bruce replacing KGJ, Homer Bailey entering the rotation, Bill Bray and a few of the AA relievers joining the bullpen. They might not help change fates in 2008, but after a year of experience at the start of '09....

This team is close. I say that, and I don't consider myself a homer in any way.

GAC
04-23-2008, 09:33 PM
And only one of those guys was acquired by Krivksy--in the only slam-dunk deal he made in his two years here.

That is a purely ridiculous assertion on your part.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2008, 09:33 PM
I don't understand this move at all. Personally, I hope the Cards sign Krivsky ;-)

I liked Jocketty as the Cards GM, but it was time for him to go. I don't see how he can be effective in Cincinnati unless the Reds ownership are prepared to open up their wallets. I red an article on the Reds website about the move stating that Krivsky's biggest mistake was trading Kearns and Lopez. Well, compare that to Jocketty trading Dan Haren, Daric Barton, and Kiko Calero for Mark Mulder. I thought Jocketty did a good job in St. Louis until that trade. IMO, that trade was the begining of the end for Jocketty in St. Louis. Imagine if he would make a comparable trade like that as Reds GM. Krivsky has signed several players that I would have loved to have as Cardinals, and he signed them cheap. Jocketty hands out big contracts when he signs/trades for players. I don't see how that philosophy will work for the Reds.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:34 PM
I don't understand this move at all. Personally, I hope the Cards sign Krivsky ;-)

I liked Jocketty as the Cards GM, but it was time for him to go. I don't see how he can be effective in Cincinnati unless the Reds ownership are prepared to open up their wallets. I red an article on the Reds website about the move stating that Krivsky's biggest mistake was trading Kearns and Lopez. Well, compare that to Jocketty trading Dan Haren, Daric Barton, and Kiko Calero for Mark Mulder. I thought Jocketty did a good job in St. Louis until that trade. IMO, that trade was the begining of the end for Jocketty in St. Louis. Imagine if he would make a comparable trade like that as Reds GM. Krivsky has signed several players that I would have loved to have as Cardinals, and he signed them cheap. Jocketty hands out big contracts when he signs/trades for players. I don't see how that philosophy will work for the Reds.
Who?

Josh Fogg over Kyle Loshe was a blunder as well, especially with the way Arroyo is pitching.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:36 PM
Who?

You could start with Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Jared Burton, and Edinson Volquez (by way of Josh Hamilton).

I think they, collectively, cost the Reds two A-Ballers and $50,000 in cash.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:37 PM
I don't understand this move at all. Personally, I hope the Cards sign Krivsky ;-)

I liked Jocketty as the Cards GM, but it was time for him to go. I don't see how he can be effective in Cincinnati unless the Reds ownership are prepared to open up their wallets. I red an article on the Reds website about the move stating that Krivsky's biggest mistake was trading Kearns and Lopez. Well, compare that to Jocketty trading Dan Haren, Daric Barton, and Kiko Calero for Mark Mulder. I thought Jocketty did a good job in St. Louis until that trade. IMO, that trade was the begining of the end for Jocketty in St. Louis. Imagine if he would make a comparable trade like that as Reds GM. Krivsky has signed several players that I would have loved to have as Cardinals, and he signed them cheap. Jocketty hands out big contracts when he signs/trades for players. I don't see how that philosophy will work for the Reds.

At least Jocketty extended the right guys for the most part. We got a bunch of needless years of Arroyo, Brandon Phillips, not enough of Dunn, too much Stanton, Cormier, Majewski.

Two plus years in and this organization is still a mess from top to bottom. I'll grant you one thing: Jocketty's got his hands full; if he fails, it won't be a huge surprise.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 09:37 PM
You could start with Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Jared Burton, and Edinson Volquez (by way of Josh Hamilton).

I think they, collectively, cost the Reds two A-Ballers and $50,000 in cash.

they weren't signed...

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:37 PM
You could start with Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Jared Burton, and Edinson Volquez (by way of Josh Hamilton).

I think they, collectively, cost the Reds two A-Ballers and $50,000 in cash.
He didn't sign any of those guys. They all came over via trades or the rule 5.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2008, 09:38 PM
Who?

Josh Fogg over Kyle Loshe was a blunder as well, especially with the way Arroyo is pitching.

Josh Hamilton, Brandon Phillips, and Jerry Hairston Jr were Rule 5's and cheap signings. I'd take all of them as Cards.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2008, 09:39 PM
He didn't sign any of those guys. They all came over via trades or the rule 5.


Is that a bad thing?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:39 PM
That is a purely ridiculous assertion on your part.

One other great deal--Pena for Arroyo--was countervailed by his idiotic extension of a junkballer. Take the career year and spin it into other stuff.

But yeah, Wayne's only GREAT move--defining move--was Volquez.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:40 PM
Is that a bad thing?

Only if you like bidding wars, never getting great value, and dealing with agents all day.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:41 PM
One other great deal--Pena for Arroyo--was countervailed by his idiotic extension of a junkballer. Take the career year and spin it into other stuff.

But yeah, Wayne's only GREAT move--defining move--was Volquez.
The good from Arroyo has netted the Reds absolutely nothing so far. Who knows if he will ever return to form, and like you said he now has a huge extension in his back pocket.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 09:41 PM
One other great deal--Pena for Arroyo--was countervailed by his idiotic extension of a junkballer. Take the career year and spin it into other stuff.

But yeah, Wayne's only GREAT move--defining move--was Volquez.

Brandon Phillips says hello. He was one of those "diamond in the rough" findings.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 09:42 PM
One other great deal--Pena for Arroyo--was countervailed by his idiotic extension of a junkballer. Take the career year and spin it into other stuff.

But yeah, Wayne's only GREAT move--defining move--was Volquez.

:confused:

Isn't it too early to make any definitive statements like that?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:42 PM
Brandon Phillips says hello.

Dude. I think Brandon Phillips is currently proving my initial "ick" reaction to him 100% right. I'm not going to pat myself on the back about it, because the guy had a nice career year, but that extension was a huge gaffe.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:44 PM
:confused:

Isn't it too early to make any definitive statements like that?

Why? Volquez could get hurt I guess. Provided he doesn't, that's about it, no? What other moves has he made in trade that netted the team a high-ceiling starter?

Am I missing any?

:confused:

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:44 PM
Dude. I think Brandon Phillips is currently proving my initial "ick" reaction to him 100% right. I'm not going to pat myself on the back about it, because the guy had a nice career year, but that extension was a huge gaffe.

Don't you think we've got a bit of a small sample size problem here?

Cedric
04-23-2008, 09:44 PM
Dude. I think Brandon Phillips is currently proving my initial "ick" reaction to him 100% right. I'm not going to pat myself on the back about it, because the guy had a nice career year, but that extension was a huge gaffe.

I think you and others ripped him after he started coming back to earth in 06 also. I wouldn't pat yourself on the back for that reason. He's streaky and I doubt he stays down for long.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 09:45 PM
Don't you think we've got a bit of a small sample size problem here?

A bit.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:46 PM
A .750 OPS 2nd baseman isn't exactly the Hope Diamond.

guttle11
04-23-2008, 09:49 PM
A .750 OPS 2nd baseman isn't exactly the Hope Diamond.

No, but a middle infielder with pop and just about top of the line defense is worth some coin. Phillips isn't making $12 mil a year. There always risk involved with multi year deals, but his contract looks perfectly fine to me.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:50 PM
No, but a middle infielder with pop and just about top of the line defense is worth some coin.

He's not a top 5 defensive second baseman. Top 10 maybe. And I think a lot of that pop was ephemeral.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 09:51 PM
He's not a top 5 defensive second baseman. Top 10 maybe. And I think a lot of that pop was ephemeral.

He had a better year defensively last year than the gold glove winner, but whatever.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:53 PM
Brandon Phillips says hello. He was one of those "diamond in the rough" findings.
Yes, he found both him and Keppinger as diamonds in the rough on offense. He also has overseen the destruction of a really good offense to the offense the Reds have today--big game once a week and besides that 3 runs a game.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:53 PM
He's not a top 5 defensive second baseman. Top 10 maybe. And I think a lot of that pop was ephemeral.
Now you are reaching.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 09:55 PM
Why? Volquez could get hurt I guess. Provided he doesn't, that's about it, no? What other moves has he made in trade that netted the team a high-ceiling starter?

Am I missing any?

:confused:

referrring more specifically to you saying it was his only good move. But yeah, check Daryl Thompson's stats so far in AA...

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:55 PM
Now you are reaching.

How? I think it's perfectly sound to say that his defense is maybe top ten, and that his power is probably more limited than what we saw last year.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:55 PM
No, but a middle infielder with pop and just about top of the line defense is worth some coin. Phillips isn't making $12 mil a year. There always risk involved with multi year deals, but his contract looks perfectly fine to me.
Phillips contract isn't in the top 10 of things Krivsky did wrong. Castro, Stanton, Coffey, Freel, Cormier, Gonzalez, Ross, Valentin....

We've all seen the threads on here, how much dead salary does this team have right now?

This team is going to have to replace both Griffey and Dunn at the end of the year as well. Think of how ugly the offense will get then.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:56 PM
He's not a top 5 defensive second baseman. Top 10 maybe. And I think a lot of that pop was ephemeral.

He's entering age-prime years. I'd figure 30 HRs again is a stretch (he had more than a few "just made it" homers last year), but I think 20 HRs is very realistic. Pencil him in for around 20-25 SBs as well, which augments his doubles power. His OBP was .331 last year, and I think he'll walk a few more times this year (he's already on pace for 50 walks this year) and push that closer to .340.

If he's giving you that -- roughly ~.800 OPS -- he has value at his contract level.

And yes, I think his defense is just about as good as it gets at 2B.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:56 PM
How? I think it's perfectly sound to say that his defense is maybe top ten, and that his power is probably more limited than what we saw last year.
He plays better defense then you are giving him credit for. I'd be surprised if he ever goes 30/30 again though.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:56 PM
referrring more specifically to you saying it was his only good move. But yeah, check Daryl Thompson's stats so far in AA...

Next you'll be telling me to check out Homer's AAA stats. :cool: But seriously, MLB is HARD to break into.

TRF
04-23-2008, 09:56 PM
How? I think it's perfectly sound to say that his defense is maybe top ten, and that his power is probably more limited than what we saw last year.

No, that's completely flawed. his defense is top 5, maybe the best in the NL. His offense is way overrated.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:58 PM
referrring more specifically to you saying it was his only good move. But yeah, check Daryl Thompson's stats so far in AA...
So Daryl Thompson's 4 good starts all of a sudden makes the trade a good one?

How about what he did with Brendan Harris?
Or Cody Ross for that matter?

Think of how much offensive talent he has shipped out and got very little return for.

Pena
Kearns
Lopez
Harris
Ross
Hamilton (not saying that wasn't a good trade)

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 09:58 PM
Baker misses call about Krivsky firing
Listen to this article or download audio file.Click-2-Listen

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Thursday, April 24, 2008

CINCINNATI — Dusty Baker turned off his cell phone, "To get some rest, catch up on some sleep," so he didn't get the call from CEO Bob Castellini. When Baker awoke, he called Wayne Krivsky, "To discuss two or three things," and that's when he discovered Krivsky was fired.

He needed to discuss those two or three things with new GM Walt Jocketty.

"This is a part of baseball and nobody likes to have it happen to them," said Baker. "Anybody in this game is going to have it happen to them. I only had it happen once, in Chicago. It's not very pleasant."

Baker said the switch from Krivsky to Jocketty will be seamless for him.

"I've been knowing Walt a long time," said Baker. "He was an assistant GM in 1985-86 when I played for the A's. When he was at Colorado and St. Louis, I was managing against his teams.

"Walt is going to do fine," he said. "He's won executive of the year a couple of times (three). I hope this all works out — works out for us, works out for Walt, works out for Wayne and we win, because it is Wayne's team."

Baker checked his roster and said, "They have some big decisions to make here. We have 13 free agents and that's a lot.

Griffey's reaction

Was Ken Griffey Jr. surprised by the dismissal of general manager Wayne Krivsky?

"Oh, yeah. You wake up in the morning, turn on the TV and you see that?" he said. "I wasn't consulted. I'm only employee No. 3, y'know?"

When told Walt Jocketty is his sixth general manager since he came to the Reds in 2000, Griffey uttered one word: "Damn."

Then he added, "It ain't my fault, coach. You never want to see anybody lose their job. Bob (Castellini) felt there had to be a change. He's the guy who controls this."

Griffey then hit his 597th career home run in the first inning to give the Reds a short-lived 1-0 lead — before the Astros scored eight unanswered runs against Reds starter Bronson Arroyo.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/04/23/ddn042408spredsnotes.html

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 09:58 PM
No, that's completely flawed. his defense is top 5, maybe the best in the NL. His offense is way overrated.

His defense is certainly top 5 in the NL, but not in MLB. No way.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:00 PM
His defense is certainly top 5 in the NL, but not in MLB. No way.
Name who you think is better.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:01 PM
So Daryl Thompson's 4 good starts all of a sudden makes the trade a good one?

Ummm... Read what he asked me...


What other moves has he made in trade that netted the team a high-ceiling starter?

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 10:01 PM
Jocketty takes over as Reds GM
He says the culture and mindset of the club needs to change

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Wednesday, April 23, 2008

CINCINNATI — Walt Jocketty, with his soft smile and white bread hair, doesn't appear to be a vindictive person, but he revealed a small piece of his competitive personality at the media conference announcing his elevation to Director of Baseball Operations/General Manager of the Cincinnati Reds.

"Trust me, me and Dusty Baker are very motivated, both guys with a vendetta, a little chip on our shoulders," he said.

That's because Jocketty was fired as GM of the St. Louis Cardinals after last season and Baker was fired as Chicago Cubs manager after the 2006 season. Both teams are with the Reds in the National League Central, making them targets for Jocketty and Baker.

General manager Wayne Krivsky was fired Wednesday, April 23, by CEO Bob Castellini and replaced by Jocketty, with whom Castellini worked in St. Louis when Jocketty was there, with Jocketty saying, "I still think we can win this division."

Under Jocketty, the Cardinals were in the playoffs seven times in 13 years after a long period of losers. Jocketty believes he can do in Cincinnati what he did in St. Louis when he took over in 1994, in less time.

"With the history of this franchise, it is very close to the situation I had in St. Louis," he said. "It has a winning tradition, great fans, a great community — but they hadn't won in St. Louis in a long time, either. There are a lot similarities to the St. Louis and Cincinnati situations, storied franchises with great traditions.

"And I think this organization is in better shape right now than St. Louis was and it won't take as long to turns things around here," he added.

Jocketty plans no immediate shakeups, either on the playing roster or the front office, until he thoroughly looks and tinkers under the hood.

"We need to change the culture and the mindset, in the clubhouse and the front office, that we can win," he said. "You need a positive approach and not look at the negatives. There is talent here, plus we have a proven manager (Dusty Baker). It is a matter of changing the focus to a winning culture."

Castellini, in a glum mood on this day, said Krivsky was fired basically because of the team's 9-12 start. He added that some of Krivsky's player personnel moves that left the team holding bags of money owed to players no longer playing entered into the dismissal, too.

Then he put some pressure on Jocketty's shoulders when he said, "We've come to a point where, well, we're just not going to lose any more."

Jocketty laughed that one off and said, "I'm not worried about that because I'm doing this because I want to do it, not that I need to do it."

He has been in baseball 33 years and while with the Cardinals was named Major League Baseball Executive of the Year three times.

After the Cardinals fired him, Jocketty was hired by the Reds as a special consultant to Castellini and the handwriting was on the executive bathroom walls — Jocketty was the next Reds GM.

Castellini didn't plan to make the move until Krivsky's contract expired after this season, but when the Reds limped out of the gate the impatient Castellini acted.

Asked his baseball philosophy, Jocketty said, "Basic philosophy, win."

And he added, "I try to build a team with pitching and defense. Scoring runs is about however your team is built — power, the ball park, running game, smallball. Generally, though, pitching and defense. That sounds easy, pretty simple, but there is a lot to it."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/04/23/ddn042408spredsb1web.html

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:03 PM
Phillips is #2 in the NL defensively at 2B in my book...

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 10:07 PM
Baker checked his roster and said, "They have some big decisions to make here. We have 13 free agents and that's a lot.



I did not know that they had 13. That is a whole lot of fixing that the new GM will have to do, going to be interesting.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:09 PM
Name who you think is better.

Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:10 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

Definetly forgot Orlando Hudson...

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:11 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.
No Orlando Hudson?

I'd disagree with the first three you listed.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 10:11 PM
Reds players surprised by GM change
Baker, team ready to move forward with proven winner
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- It never occurred to Dusty Baker to turn his phone on Wednesday morning.

The Reds manager was asleep when the call came from owner/CEO Bob Castellini that he had decided to replace general manager Wayne Krivsky with Walt Jocketty.

"He left me a message. He was trying to reach me," Baker said. "My phone is off in the morning so I can get some rest."

Baker hadn't checked his messages yet when he called Krivsky after waking up.

"I went to call Wayne on some things, and he informed me," Baker said. "My take is I don't know what to take on it right now.

"It's part of baseball. Nobody likes it. Nobody likes to have it happen to them. Anybody that's in this game, it's going to happen to them for whatever the reasons are. I didn't have it happen to me until I was in Chicago when my contract expired [in 2006]. I was basically fired. It's not a very pleasant feeling about yourself. Wayne's a good baseball man. I know he will land on his feet some place. He's been in the game a long time with a lot of people."

Reds players were also stunned to get the news that their boss was let go only 21 games into the season. Ken Griffey Jr. learned about the change, literally through channels.

"I turned on the TV and that?," Griffey said. "You never want to see anybody lose their job. Bob felt that there had to be a change. He's got control of this, and he pulled the trigger."

"I just heard about it on my way in," rotation ace Aaron Harang said. "It's kind of a shock. I guess we weren't going the way the owners felt we could be going, and they decided to make some changes."

Harang was aware of Jocketty's history from his 13 seasons as the Cardinals' GM. St. Louis went to the playoffs seven times and won a World Series in 2006.

"He has a reputation," Harang said. "He ended up turning St. Louis around and making them a very solid organization and a very good team. Hopefully, that's what Bob and the rest of the owners were looking for. Seeing his past track record, they obviously think he can do something good."

Jocketty, who was a special advisor to Castellini before the latest move, was on the Reds' most recent road trip through Milwaukee, Pittsburgh and Chicago. He and Baker often talked, and they've already met about their plans going forward.

Baker and Jocketty, however, weren't strangers by any stretch before this season.

"I've known Walt forever," Baker said. "I remember Walt when he was my last assistant GM in 1985-86 with the A's when I was a player. [When he was] in Colorado and St. Louis, I battled against Walt's teams many times. Walt's going to do fine."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080423&content_id=2574609&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

guttle11
04-23-2008, 10:13 PM
Arguing about defense is circular. They're all really good, and they don't field the same batted balls. Impossible to truly judge.

And guess what? Phillips makes right about the same/less money then those other guys do/will when it's their time to get a raise. Pop in the bat, ability to steal many more bases than times caught stealing, and very good defense up the middle. All at a competitive salary?

Sign me up. Twice.

IslandRed
04-23-2008, 10:16 PM
Reds are going to out-Steinbrenner everyone.


Goodness, I hope so.

The Steinbrenner method requires bigger checks than Bob's going to write. :p:

That was the crux of the post I made in another thread. Checkbook baseball was about the only way a team could get from where the Reds were in February 2006 to where Castellini is demanding they ought to be now, particularly with the Cubs finally acting like a big-market team. Not that I believe Castellini should have gone way into his own pocket to do that; far from it. But if he wasn't going to use his wallet to supercharge the process, he needed to understand that the natural cycle of these things is longer than two years.

But then, that's just overanalyzing on my part. The truth is pretty simple in retrospect -- Castellini had a chance to put the guy he knew and trusted in the GM's chair and he did it at the first plausible moment. I should have seen it coming but I figured it was Krivsky's final season and he'd at least finish it before he was sent packing.

And, while I give Krivsky a lot of credit for rebuilding the organization's talent base, I grant that Jocketty's probably the better choice to take it from here.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:16 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

Most of those guys are comparable and debating them is a waste of time. Ian Kinsler is not in that group...

Reds Nd2
04-23-2008, 10:18 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

Only one National League player in the bunch. Try again.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:19 PM
Only one National League player in the bunch. Try again.

I said he WAS top five in the NL.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:21 PM
Most of those guys are comparable and debating them is a waste of time. Ian Kinsler is not in that group...

Probably. But my larger point is unchanged. Last year was likely a career offensive year, and defense never gets better as a player ages; not wise to extend him when you didn't have to.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:22 PM
Probably. But my larger point is unchanged. Last year was likely a career offensive year, and defense never gets better as a player ages; not wise to extend him when you didn't have to.

I agree. I think the only thing that we disagreed on was when you said others are better defensively. Comparable yes, better no...

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:26 PM
Probably. But my larger point is unchanged. Last year was likely a career offensive year, and defense never gets better as a player ages; not wise to extend him when you didn't have to.

He's entering age prime.

He might never post the flash that he did last year, but I think he can replicate the baseline numbers behind the counting stats. He's already on pace to walk more this year than he did last year. That's a Good Thing™.

Moving him to a more appropriate position in the lineup (5th/6th) would also help.

Reds Nd2
04-23-2008, 10:32 PM
I said he WAS top five in the NL.

When in reality, he's in the top two defensivley in the NL.

At least you got Chase Utley correct. I guess that means something.

pedro
04-23-2008, 10:35 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

FWIW, Baseball Prospectus rated Phillips better than all those guys except Cano for last year although with the exception of Cano (+28 runs) they were all fairly comparable.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:39 PM
When in reality, he's in the top two defensivley in the NL.

At least you got Chase Utley correct. I guess that means something.

Ronny Cedeno
Hudson

As I said, I'm going on recollection here.

I don't disagree that Phillips is a good second baseman defensively. He is. Being top ten in MLB at a position means you are good. I just don't think his extension was warranted. Which is a perfectly defensible position.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:43 PM
Ronny Cedeno?

He's never played 2nd base everyday.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:43 PM
Ronny Cedeno?

He's never played 2nd base everyday.

True.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 10:44 PM
Krivsky didn't see change coming
BY SHANNON RUSSELL | SRUSSELL@ENQUIRER.COM

When Reds president and CEO Bob Castellini asked Wayne Krivsky on Tuesday night what time he’d be in the office the following morning, Krivsky didn’t think much about it.

Eight-thirty, he said.

“Good,” Castellini said. “We’ll have a meeting.”

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At that meeting, Krivsky learned that Reds ownership brought him in to be fired.

Less than three years after taking over the club’s general manager position, Krivsky was replaced on Wednesday by former St. Louis general manager Walt Jocketty.

Krivsky was said he spent an hour trying to save his job. Castellini didn’t budge.

“I did not see this coming all,” Krivsky said.

“Having said that, I told Bob I was real appreciative of the opportunity. I worked 29 years to get an opportunity like this in the city of Cincinnati, starving for a winner, (with a) great sports town and great tradition, and I still think it’s a gold mine. I really do. That’s what hurts so much – not to see the job through to the end and bring that winner to Cincinnati.”

Until Wednesday, he said he dreamed of celebrating in the clubhouse someday with champagne. In his 15-plus minute farewell speech, he mourned his abbreviated stay and gave thanks to many people at Great American Ball Park.

When asked if he had had enough time to do what he wanted to accomplish in Cincinnati, the New York native became emotional.

“I can only say good things. I love it here. And…” he started before stopping to compose himself.

One of Krivsky’s biggest regrets is not working with manager Dusty Baker. He recommended Baker for the job, and still believes the skipper is “the right guy to take this team forward and win.”

When Baker talked to Krivsky Wednesday, he said the former general manager was upset, bewildered and emotional.

Baker was also surprised, although he’s convinced Krivsky will land with another team.

Krivsky, 53, isn’t ruling out another run at general management. But to be frank, he said, the only place he wants to be is here.

He said one of his Reds highlights was bringing up pitcher Tom Shearn from Triple-A Louisville last season. Krivsky said Shearn recently returned the sentiment.

“When Tom Shearn goes to a booster club at the Louisville ball park and says Wayne Krivsky is the only GM I’ve ever seen that comes down to the field and interacts with the players and knows their names – that’s really neat,” Krivsky said.

In the end, the Reds’ losing records were the impetus for change.

“Wayne Krivsky did a whale of a job in so many areas,” Castellini said. “It just comes to the point where … we’re just not going to lose anymore.”

Krivsky said there was nothing he would have done differently.

“I’m going to walk out of here with my head held high and feeling good, and I’m going to sleep good tonight, I hope,” Krivsky said. “You know, maybe not tonight. Maybe the next night.”

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/ab/20080423/SPT04/304230102

M2
04-23-2008, 10:46 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

In order - hell no, no, hell no, solid but doesn't have a ton of range, I like Phillips better.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:49 PM
FWIW, Baseball Prospectus rated Phillips better than all those guys except Cano for last year although with the exception of Cano (+28 runs) they were all fairly comparable.

BaseballProspectus FRAA:
Utley +4
Kinsler +5
Pedroia +12
Phillips +15
Hudson +15
Hill +20
Cano +23

FWIW

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 10:54 PM
I just saw the interview with Krivsky saying "I really love it here" and started crying :O

wow.....

I really don't think this was a good move

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:57 PM
I just saw the interview with Krivsky saying "I really love it here" and started crying :O

wow.....

I really don't think this was a good move
Because he cried?

VR
04-23-2008, 10:58 PM
I think Wayne did some great things....some very poor things.....and perhaps will learn from his mistakes and often poor media skills.

He was better than DanO, and hopefully WJ can keep moving forward....because it is a wildly improved all-around organization from 3-4 short years ago.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 10:59 PM
Walt Jocketty should bring October baseball back to Cincinnati
April 23, 2008

Richard Justice

Wednesday was a good day for the Cincinnati Reds. They didn't just hire a new general manager. They hired one of baseball's most successful general managers.

Walt Jocketty has both credibility and a terrific track record. Years from now, that's the part of the story people will remember. Departing GM Wayne Krivsky might have had his feelings hurt, but that's going to happen when franchises are rebuilt.

Mark it on your calendar. This is going to be remembered as the day the Reds began their climb back to prominence.

The Reds desperately needed stability, and now with Bob Castellini as CEO, Dusty Baker as manager and Jocketty as GM, they've got it. In the last six years, they've had four general managers, four managers and two owners.

Now the pieces are in place. The St. Louis Cardinals went to the playoffs seven times in 12 years with Jocketty in charge. He acquired or developed the core players on two National League championship teams, one of which won the World Series.

He didn't do a great job in player development, but by getting Chris Carpenter, Larry Walker and others for almost nothing, he did his job.

He was stripped of some of his power after the Cardinals won the 2006 World Series, and his departure seemed a foregone conclusion.

Castellini, who had once been part of the ownership group in St. Louis, brought in Jocketty as a consultant last January.

Some of Jocketty's closest friends swear he didn't want to be GM; rather, he wanted to help Krivsky any way he could.

Problem is, Krivsky apparently saw Jocketty as a threat no matter how many people tried to tell him he was anything but. Krivsky seldom sought Jocketty's advice, and he froze him out of the decision-making process.

Krivsky did some good things for Cincinnati before his firing. He made nice deals to acquire Bronson Arroyo, Brandon Phillips and Edinson Volquez. He was methodically rebuilding the farm system.

He also made plenty of mistakes. In the end, those mistakes did him in. He signed Rheal Cormier and Mike Stanton and ended up paying them $6.5 million not to pitch.

He gave Corey Patterson $3 million even though Patterson was out of work and probably would have signed for the minimum. He overpaid Ryan Freel and Josh Fogg, as well.

His $46-million deal for Francisco Cordero may end up being a bad signing.

Bad contracts could have been forgiven if the Reds had been winning, but the team looked like it was headed toward its eighth straight losing season when the axe fell of Krivsky.

Plenty of baseball people were glad to see Krivsky get the chance to be a general manager. He was a grassroots baseball man, working his way up the ladder with the Rangers and Twins.

He had contacts and years of institutional knowledge. What he didn't have and might never have was the credibility that Jocketty brings to any discussion with other general managers.

Jocketty and Tony La Russa were the perfect team in St. Louis. Around this time last year, some baseball insiders believed both would end up working for Castellini in Cincinnati. But La Russa re-signed with the Cardinals, and Dusty Baker got the Reds' managerial job.

Now Jocketty is being given the task of resurrecting baseball in one of America's best baseball cities. At the moment, the Reds don't have enough hitting or pitching.

They do have two premier prospects in outfielder Jay Bruce and lefthander Homer Bailey. Jocketty's track record says he will succeed. There aren't many things better than October baseball in Cincinnati -- and it's going to return.

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 11:01 PM
Because he cried?

No. I never thought it was good. But that DOES show that he cared deeply for this position, so his motivation and enthusiasm shouldn't be questioned at this point IMO.

MikeS21
04-23-2008, 11:03 PM
Who is gonna kick Cast's booty? As far as I'm concerned, as the owner, he is solely responsible for this situation. So why is he getting a free pass as if all this is WK's fault?

He HIRED Krivsky
Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.
Bob had nothing to do, no involvement (giving his OK) to even those bad deals/trades that turned awry?

I'm not saying the GM doesn't carry any culpibility. Wayne certainly does. And there are probably several sound reasons to justify his firing. The timing really sucked. Totally classless of this owner who sites his impatience as the sole reason IMO. But I'm also tired of an owner who keeps saying he's tired of losing, want's to win now (which seems to appease some), and as far as I'm concerned is the main culprit.

Ya gotta have your scapegoat I guess.

We all pretty much knew that when Jocketty was brought in as a "special advisor" that Wayne's days were numbered.

They hired a BIG NAME manager, and now have their BIG NAME GM. I'm really impressed. :rolleyes:

Symbolism over substance as far as I'm concerned.

There were sound reasons as to why these two were FIRED from their previous jobs. They had no farm system in St. Louis, and Jocketty acknowledges that this is an area where he has no expertise, and is a weakness. Yes, that is a concern for me. He's the type of guy that, IMHO, will trade away any future we have, even if it is a Jay Bruce, as long as it mets Bob C's vision of WIN NOW.

Thank God I didn't buy any ticket packages this year. I have a feeling it's gonna get ugly.

I wonder how much impatience Bob will have with the "Walt and Dusty Show"?
Pretty much my sentiments, exactly.

It's not even the "crown jewels" I'm concerned about, as much as I am guys like Todd Frazier, Juan Fransisco, Danny Dorn, and others, who will probably be sacrificed on the altar of "Win Now." Obviously, none of those players are Jay Bruce like prospects and never will be. But they do provide a solid pipeline that eases the constant need of trades and free agents. What good will it do to trade them to bring in players who may or may not perform up to expectations?

Everyone blasts Krivsky over "The Trade." But for the life of me I cannot figure out what the Reds actally lost when they gave up Kerns, Lopez, and Wagner. We act like Krivisky traded away Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas. I don't want to rehash that trade or beat a dead horse. Let's just say neither team got what they expected. And I think Bray and Thompson will eventually cause us to ask, "Austin Who?" Based on all the information at his disposal, Krivsky felt it was logical to assume that Majewski would at least maintain his level of pitching - which had been very good for the Expos/Nationals. But Krivsky was wrong.

Now here's my concern. Jocketty will trade off all the depth the Reds have gathered in the minor leagues in order to bring in players he assumes will maintain their level of play. He will use pretty much the same criteria to guage talent as Krivsky (except he might treat his advisors a little nicer in the process). But the end result is he depletes the farm system by bringing in other players - like Majewski - who, on paper, should help this team, but who very probably will fail to live up to their billing. As a fan, that is unacceptable.

I would rather see this team struggle through a year or two of growing pains by home grown talent, than to see the talent traded away in return for players that other teams are trying to unload.

There was reason Walt Jocketty was let go in St. Louis, and it stemmed directly to his disagreements with Jeff Luhnow, who was trying to bring a more analytical approach to player development in the Cardinals' organization. It is also significant that the new GM is John Mozeliak, who already had leanings towards analytical philosophy of development. And one of the finalist for the job was Chris Antonelli, who is about as sabermetric as they come.

All Castellini has accomplished with this move is that he has replaced the captain of the Titanic with a different captain. And the new captain still wants to go through the same ice field.

reds44
04-23-2008, 11:14 PM
No. I never thought it was good. But that DOES show that he cared deeply for this position, so his motivation and enthusiasm shouldn't be questioned at this point IMO.
Who questioned either of those characteristics?

Reds Nd2
04-23-2008, 11:17 PM
Ronny Cedeno
Hudson

As I said, I'm going on recollection here.

I'm not. I'd take Brandon Phillips over both of them.


I just don't think his extension was warranted. Which is a perfectly defensible position.

Ok. Why?

08:$2.75M, 09:$4.75M, 10:$6.75M, 11:$11M, 12:$12M club option ($1M buyout)

What's so bad about that for a 26 year old who is among the top two defensive 2B in the NL?

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:19 PM
Castellini's impatience doomed Krivsky
Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 06:36 PM EST [Reds]

Hours after being told he was no longer the general manager of the Cincinnati Reds, Wayne Krivsky's eyes were red and he spoke slowly and chose his words carefully.

He'd fought for an hour to keep his job earlier in the day, but it was not enough. In the end, there was one unwavering truth -- Reds owner Bob Castellini is not a patient man.

"Bob will admit he's an impatient person," Krivsky said.

But Castellini is in a patient man's game. Unlike vegetables that can be counted on to product based on a yearly cycle, baseball teams and organizations take longer to cultivate.

Wayne Krivsky is a patient man, Bob Castellini is not.

"We're just not going to lose anymore," Castellini said Wednesday.

That is Castellini's will. His way was to replace Krivsky with Walt Jocketty, who led the St. Louis Cardinals to six division titles, a Wild Card, two National League pennants and the 2006 World Series.

Krivsky was perhaps naïve enough to believe Castellini when he hired Jocketty as a special advisor to advise and assist Castellini in baseball operations that his job wasn't on the line. In fact, it was. Everyone else saw it, but Krivsky refused to read the writing on the wall, listening only to what was said.

"Bob had talked to me about next year, after the season, kind of easing my way into working again," Jocketty said. "Possibly being president of baseball operations at the end of the year. That was something we'd consider. He asked me last night if I was willing to do it now."

Instead of looking over his shoulder and mortgaging the future for the 2008 season and his job, Krivsky went on building an organization the only way he knew how.

"You think about the present and you can have a mandate to win this year, but I never lose sight of the long term," Krivsky said. "I didn't do things here to save my job short term. I wasn't going to do that. In my mind, I was going to be here a long time. … I wasn't going to do anything to hurt the organization long term to save my rear for one year."

Krivsky took over a team that hadn't had a winning season since 2001, but didn't have a winning record in either of his first two seasons. Although Castellini said when Krivsky was hired in 2006 that he wanted to use the Minnesota Twins, an organization Krivsky had deep ties with, as a model. In Minnesota, Terry Ryan was able to build the Twins and with the patience of six losing seasons to start his tenure.

Castellini may have liked the end result of the Twins model, but in the end, he couldn't deal with the sacrifice in the here and now required to put in the infrastructure Ryan built in Minnesota.

"I don't think anybody in the organization is happy with the results on a won-loss basis," Castellini said. "We've had two losing seasons under our new ownership and we started out this season poorly on a win-loss basis. That's the primary reason we made the change."

So, after an 8-12 start -- Castellini said he’d made the decision before Tuesday’s victory over the Dodgers -- the owner's patience ran short and Krivsky was outed.
I

n his tenure, Krivsky nearly turned over the roster completely. The only starting position players from before Krivsky's tenure are Ken Griffey Jr., Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion. Joey Votto was in the minor league system before Krivsky's hiring, but was brought through under Krivsky's watch. Aaron Harang, Matt Belisle and Johnny Cueto are the only pitchers in the rotation not acquired by Krivsky, and the outgoing general manager signed Harang to a long-term deal under market value. Cueto, like Votto, was acquired by the Dan O'Brien regime, but came throughout he system under Krivsky. The bullpen's only non-Krivsky acquisition is David Weathers.

Krivsky acquired Brandon Phillips, last season's team MVP, for Jeff Stevens. He traded Bobby Basham for David Ross. He acquired Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena. He acquired Kyle Lohse for Zach Ward and later Matt Maloney for Lohse. He also traded Russ Haltiwanger for Jeff Keppinger. He selected Josh Hamilton and Jared Burton in the Rule 5 draft and turned Hamilton around for Edinson Volquez.

His most controversial move came in July of 2006, when the Reds sent Felipe Lopez, Austin Kearns and Ryan Wagner to the Washington Nationals for Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris and Daryl Thompson. While roundly viewed as a fleecing by former Reds GM and current National GM Jim Bowden, time has made it a wash, and could even go in the Reds' favor as Bray has been impressive when injury-free and Thompson has currently tearing up the Southern League.

Perhaps the biggest criticisms of Krivsky recently have come from his contract extensions. He signed Mike Stanton to a two-year $5.5 million deal before the 2006 season. He gave Ryan Freel a two-year $7 million extension last season and Juan Castro a two-year, $2 million contract. He also signed Arroyo to a two-year extension for $25 million.

Any perceived loss can be noted by the savings of the four-year, $36.5 million extension to Harang, which is very low compared to other No. 1 starters in a similar position as Harang.

Krivsky was also often criticized for the extension of left-hander Rheal Cormier, but the Reds received $2.08 million in cash to pay Cormier from the A's in the trade that sent Chris Denorfia to Oakland and netted Cincinnati reliever Marcus McBeth.

"I challenge anybody, you put the acquisitions in one column and what we gave up in the other and you tell me it's not a freakin' slam dunk the job that was done here," Krivsky said. "It's not just Wayne Krivsky, it's on my ledger. You want to talk contracts? I'll talk contracts with you. Mike Stanton? And I love Mike Stanton, but it didn't work out. That one's on me. Rheal Cormier, that one got covered, we got a whole bunch of money (from the A's in the Chris Denorfia deal) that covered that. I'm not the type of person that's going to brag we got seven figures on that. I'll walk out of here feeling proud that I stayed true to myself and what I'm all about."

When asked about immediate moves to make the Reds better, Jocketty said he didn't know of anything right away, but he left the spring feeling good about the team's chances to compete, and still does, even with the current makeup.

"I felt when we started the season we had a club that could be a contending club and this division is winnable," Jocketty said.

Usually when the executives like the club that is put on the field and not the way that club is playing, the general manager is praised and the field manager is fired. But Dusty Baker is just 21 games into his Reds tenure and was the high-profile manager Castellini craved, so he's too new to get the blame. Instead, the ax fell on Krivsky.

"At the end of the day, I wish a larger perspective was taken on the whole body of work that's been done here rather than the 9-12 record or whatever led to the thinking of being let go today," Krivsky said.

But with Bob Castellini's promises to win and win now, the only perspective that matters is his and its judged solely on the wins and losses as of today, not the entire health of the organization. Castellini, Jocketty and Baker may talk about the importance of continuity, but because of that impatience, not only is Wayne Krivsky out of a job, but the Cincinnati Reds’ organization is looking at yet another change in direction, including interim GMs, they are now on their sixth since Great American Ball Park opened in 2003.

"I've got to respect the decision, but I disagree with it strongly," Krivsky said. "I think I'm the right guy for this. I have a lot of confidence in my ability and the staff I've put in here. I'm proud of what I've done here."

http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:23 PM
Huge props and thanks to Wayne Krivsky for not folding to the pressure and dealing away the future for a quick fix. Thank for sticking to your guns and not mortgaging the future by trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard or Joe Blanton. By not doing that, the future now looks very, very bright in Cincy. It's a shame he won't be here to enjoy that.

WMR
04-23-2008, 11:28 PM
Huge props and thanks to Wayne Krivsky for not folding to the pressure and dealing away the future for a quick fix. Thank for sticking to your guns and not mortgaging the future by trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard or Joe Blanton. By not doing that, the future now looks very, very bright in Cincy. It's a shame he won't be here to enjoy that.

I wonder if trading one of our most valued chips would have saved his job?

Pretty honorable of the guy to do what he thought would be best for the Reds in the long-term even at the expense of his own job security.

TRF
04-23-2008, 11:31 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

I've seen Kinsler a lot. He's not in BP's class at all. Neither is Cano. BP is as good as Utley.

redsrule2500
04-24-2008, 12:00 AM
Huge props and thanks to Wayne Krivsky for not folding to the pressure and dealing away the future for a quick fix. Thank for sticking to your guns and not mortgaging the future by trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard or Joe Blanton. By not doing that, the future now looks very, very bright in Cincy. It's a shame he won't be here to enjoy that.

Wow. You know what, you're exactly correct. He had to know he was under this kind of immediate pressure for quite some time, and he still didn't do anything drastic. Thanks Wayne, solid job.

KronoRed
04-24-2008, 12:04 AM
I wonder if trading one of our most valued chips would have saved his job?


Doubt it, the team was 9-12, Wayne was being fired no matter what, it's ridiculous it wasn't just done when Walt became available, why the hold? to make a silly splash?

Reds Nd2
04-24-2008, 12:12 AM
Walt Jocketty should bring October baseball back to Cincinnati
April 23, 2008

Richard Justice

Wednesday was a good day for the Cincinnati Reds. They didn't just hire a new general manager. They hired one of baseball's most successful general managers.

Really?


Walt Jocketty has both credibility and a terrific track record. Years from now, that's the part of the story people will remember. Departing GM Wayne Krivsky might have had his feelings hurt, but that's going to happen when franchises are rebuilt.

Mark it on your calendar. This is going to be remembered as the day the Reds began their climb back to prominence.

Some of us will still remember that, no matter what happens, Walt Jocketty took over a Reds team on the verge of winning the division. A team that both Dan O'Brien and Wayne Krivsky built into winners. Walt Jocketty may get the glory, but it won't be a remembered fight.


The Reds desperately needed stability, and now with Bob Castellini as CEO, Dusty Baker as manager and Jocketty as GM, they've got it. In the last six years, they've had four general managers, four managers and two owners.

They have stabilty? Mr. Castellini now has his 3rd general manager and his 3rd field manager in less than two and half years. Dusty Baker and Walt Jocketty have just over 6 months combined experiance with the Reds.


Now the pieces are in place. The St. Louis Cardinals went to the playoffs seven times in 12 years with Jocketty in charge. He acquired or developed the core players on two National League championship teams, one of which won the World Series.

If Walt Jocketty is the answer, I don't want to know the question.

I really couldn't get through any more of that love fest. Sorry...

Matt700wlw
04-24-2008, 12:16 AM
I don't care who gets the glory, I just want them to win. If feelings get hurt in the process, that's part of the gig. I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

If Jocketty is the guy to make the moves to bring the winning back....then mama's happy.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 12:17 AM
Wow. You know what, you're exactly correct. He had to know he was under this kind of immediate pressure for quite some time, and he still didn't do anything drastic. Thanks Wayne, solid job.

How do we know that he didn't try?

Seems to me that he resisted trading Jay Bruce earlier, but i seem to have read that Votto and even Cueto were put out for bids.

Gosh, you'd think Krivsky was a saint or something after reading this board tonight. Nowhere in the history of baseball has a GM taken a team from the 80-82 mark to 91-103 mark and get so many laurels. The team was not getting better. It was getting worse.

From that fateful day that Wayne made The Trade, I was an opponent. I saw nothing he had done that made me all weak in the knees with admiration, but in the last 6 months, I saw a difference. Outside of the Fogg and Patterson signings, I thought he was coming along and might be a good GM. I was not advocating his firing, even though he obviously could not assemble a 25-man roster. I take no joy in his demise, but to all of a sudden canonize his every move, including those he didn't make is a little much.

There's a new sheriff in town. Our support should go to him...

Until he screws up. :)

remdog
04-24-2008, 12:26 AM
Everyone blasts Krivsky over "The Trade." But for the life of me I cannot figure out what the Reds actally lost when they gave up Kerns, Lopez, and Wagner.

What they actually lost was that they traded two players that, should have brought back more than what they did. Nothing down the road (Bray/Thompson) will change that because the trade was made to 'win now', just as Castellini had asked him to do. It's just that Wayne picked a couple of guys that were bad choices.


Based on all the information at his disposal, Krivsky felt it was logical to assume that Majewski would at least maintain his level of pitching - which had been very good for the Expos/Nationals. But Krivsky was wrong.

Actually, Majewski had been had been only average or slightly better than average before the trade and has always lacked the ability to make hitters miss bats in a good ratio the the number of free passes he allowed. Which brings me to the pharse, 'Based on all of the information at his disposal....' This one point stands out like a nudist at an Amish house raising. Krivsky simply failed to do his due diligence. It doesn't matter who he was dealing with, it is a basic when making a trade: get the latest medical records! It may have been a rookie mistake but it was, nonetheless, a major mistake on Krivsky's part and always will be. We'll never know but, had Wayne done the prudent thing maybe 'the trade' would have never been made and things may have turned out better for all concerned. (shrug)

Which does bring us to the next question: with Wayne gone will the Reds now drop the ludicrous claim they have against the Nats and move on?

Rem

Reds Nd2
04-24-2008, 12:41 AM
I don't care who gets the glory, I just want them to win. If feelings get hurt in the process, that's part of the gig. I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

If Jocketty is the guy to make the moves to bring the winning back....then mama's happy.

Its' not about who get's the glory. Jocketty's going to ride the coattails of those who came before him when the Reds win. Just as Krivsky would have rode O'Brien's success. It's all about giving credit where it's due. Something that's sorely lacking on RedsZone.

cincinnati chili
04-24-2008, 01:04 AM
I hope that there's more to this than Castellini's impatience. But I fear that's what caused this. It's April. What could he possibly found out about Krivsky now that he couldn't have figured out by last October?

I wish Wayne well. I didn't agree with everything he did, but he did a lot more good than harm.

remdog
04-24-2008, 01:33 AM
It's all about giving credit where it's due. Something that's sorely lacking on RedsZone.

So then I assume that you give Krivsky credit for for not checking medical records in the case of 'the trade'. And I assume that you give Krivsky credit for giving out overpriced, overextended contracts like Stanton, Castro and Freel. And I assume that you give Krivsky credit for bidding against himself as recently as 8 weeks ago by giving Corey Patterson $3M when he was sitting at home with no one else wanting his services.

I'm not seeing a real good learning curve there.

There are two sides of the ledger in any accounting.

Rem

Wheelhouse
04-24-2008, 01:54 AM
So then I assume that you give Krivsky credit for for not checking medical records in the case of 'the trade'. And I assume that you give Krivsky credit for giving out overpriced, overextended contracts like Stanton, Castro and Freel. And I assume that you give Krivsky credit for bidding against himself as recently as 8 weeks ago by giving Corey Patterson $3M when he was sitting at home with no one else wanting his services.

I'm not seeing a real good learning curve there.

There are two sides of the ledger in any accounting.

Rem

Your points are superb, but Krivsky did do some astonishingly good things:
-He brought the Reds farm system from a 27th BA ranking to 4th in MLB in only two years.
-He acquired Hamilton (and in turn Volquez) and Brandon Phillips for almost nothing. Their value alone more than offsets the Castro, Stanton, and Freel money combined.
-He stole a top closer from a division rival. Not easy to do in this world of loose lips.

Yet, I think he had to go for this one reason: when charged with patching a specific hole in the team immediately during the season, he was unable to effectively go out and get the players to do so. The Reds are at a stage where they can make a run at the division and they need their deficiencies dealt with in short order. Good call by Castellini.

fearofpopvol1
04-24-2008, 03:06 AM
I haven't posted anything up until now, but put me in the group of "shocked."  Literally, it's the last thing I would've expected to see.  I honestly had to make sure I was awake when I read it. 

Truthfully, I don't like the move, at least not at this juncture.  It just doesn't make sense to me.  I guess I can't say that completely, since it was clear that Walt was his guy all along.  Unfortunately, I don't think Krivsky was given a fair shot to fail or to succeed.  He inherited a really awful team.  It's almost like he cursed himself because he struck lightning in a bottle his first year and nearly took the Reds to the playoffs.  The arc wasn't built over night and to have a winner immediately (given how bad of shape the organization was in) was just not realistic unless you wanted to wipe out the farm system.
People can debate the moves he made and whether the good outweighed the bad in terms of both personnel and contracts, but the one thing I noticed is it did seem like Krivsky began to make smarter decisions the further he got into his tenure.  I didn't think any of the moves he had made this last offseason were bad at all, and yes, that includes signing Fogg.  He was signed before spring training started and nobody could've predicted the emergence of the youngsters.  Patterson may have been overpaid, but I seriously doubt he would've taken a contract for $500K (I don't even think with union rules that would've been possible anyhow).  Don't get me wrong though, Krivsky wasn't perfect.  He seemingly struggled to assemble much of a bullpen and was often times weak at assessing (and fixing) immediate problems.  I think one of the things that may be overlooked the most about Krivsky was what he did with trades.  Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.  He was getting blasted a lot during the offseason for not picking up another starting pitcher, but it seemed like in all scenarios, the pricetag was astronomical and now all of a sudden, it was looking like he made the right choice. 
I do think this move is going to have a pretty big impact on BCast's legacy in Cincinnati.  It's either going to look really smart or really stupid.  We won't know for quite some time, but it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.   There's no doubt that Walt is a smart guy and has credibility, but the big question is, what will he do differently to produce a winning product?  Is he going to mortgage the farm to put a winner on the field now? 
Lastly, the proper people are rarely (if ever) credited for their work.  Jimbo drafted Votto, Kullman and (the guy is escaping me) traded for Harang, DanO drafted Bailey and Bruce, Krivsky signed a lot of players as well...the current roster (and farm system) really has been a collaborative effort between a lot of people.

mth123
04-24-2008, 06:54 AM
Jocketty changed his answer from I want some time to regroup to yes I'll take the job. IMO that explains the timing and the reason for the change. All the rest of this makes for a nice retrospective, but the impetus of change was Cast wanted Jocketty or some other familiar name all along and was just biding his time with WK until one came available that would agree to take the job.

As for WK, I continue to believe that he is a really good scout who can seek out and target undervalued talent and bring it in under the radar. That talent has moved the franchise forward immensely. Guys like Phillips, Hamilton (i.e. Volquez), Keppinger etc have solidified the foundation. But that does not make him a good GM IMO. A GM's primary job is to put a team together. The on-going saga of the bullpen and the mis-cast collection of pieces on this team's bench are examples of his problems with assembly. I'd love to see him stay on with the authority to do what he does best, but I'm glad we have a proven team builder as the actual GM at this point.

jojo
04-24-2008, 07:06 AM
You could start with Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Jared Burton, and Edinson Volquez (by way of Josh Hamilton).

I think they, collectively, cost the Reds two A-Ballers and $50,000 in cash.

Josh Hamilton cost the Reds $50,000 and a spot on the 25 man roster that essentially was open due to a lack of talent.

Volquez cost the Reds Josh Hamilton.


That's two dramatically different equations and frankly, I have no idea how Bob C runs his vegetable business successfully if he truly believes his statement from yesterday's presser concerning the cost of acquiring Volquez.

lollipopcurve
04-24-2008, 07:07 AM
Saw Jocketty on TV during the game. He talked again about delegating a lot. As others have pointed out, he doesn't seem ready to work his a** off like Krivsky did. Let's not forget that just a few months ago he called GMing a young man's job. We'll see, but I suspect this new regime will feature a big splashy move or two, but won't do the grunt work to supplement with undervalued talent (the rule Vers, the extra kid in trades, the waiver wire), leaving the organization poorer in the long run. Hope I'm wrong.

jojo
04-24-2008, 07:11 AM
Saw Jocketty on TV during the game. He talked again about delegating a lot. As others have pointed out, he doesn't seem ready to work his a** off like Krivsky did. Let's not forget that just a few months ago he called GMing a young man's job. We'll see, but I suspect this new regime will feature a big splashy move or two, but won't do the grunt work to supplement with undervalued talent (the rule Vers, the extra kid in trades, the waiver wire), leaving the organization poorer in the long run. Hope I'm wrong.

It looks like he'll be the face of the FO but not necessarily the one you'd call to get things done if you're in an opposing FO.

It's a curious decision from the outside looking in....

redsmetz
04-24-2008, 07:22 AM
The core of this team (Votto, Phillips, Keppinger, Dunn, Cueto, Volquez, Harang) WILL win. I'd lay my own money that they will be a postseason team within the next two years. Jocketty will get the credit, but it will be Krivsky that laid the foundation for this to happen.

I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

The irony would be if we play whatever club Krivsky ends up with next.

I'm beginning to believe that this was an impetuous move on Castellini's part, although an earlier poster noted that if Castellini had his mind made up not to return Krivsky next year, it's better to cut loose now and have the succeeding regime in than to leave Krivsky hobbled as a lame duck GM. That said, I think Castellini's own words don't haunt him (and he looked haunted yesterday). He said, "I hope inpatient isn't imprudent."

Almost Shakespearan or from a Greek tragedy, no?

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 07:26 AM
Who is gonna kick Cast's booty? As far as I'm concerned, as the owner, he is solely responsible for this situation. So why is he getting a free pass as if all this is WK's fault?

He HIRED Krivsky
Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.
Bob had nothing to do, no involvement (giving his OK) to even those bad deals/trades that turned awry?

I'm not saying the GM doesn't carry any culpibility. Wayne certainly does. And there are probably several sound reasons to justify his firing. The timing really sucked. Totally classless of this owner who sites his impatience as the sole reason IMO. But I'm also tired of an owner who keeps saying he's tired of losing, want's to win now (which seems to appease some), and as far as I'm concerned is the main culprit.

Ya gotta have your scapegoat I guess.

We all pretty much knew that when Jocketty was brought in as a "special advisor" that Wayne's days were numbered.

They hired a BIG NAME manager, and now have their BIG NAME GM. I'm really impressed. :rolleyes:

Symbolism over substance as far as I'm concerned.

There were sound reasons as to why these two were FIRED from their previous jobs. They had no farm system in St. Louis, and Jocketty acknowledges that this is an area where he has no expertise, and is a weakness. Yes, that is a concern for me. He's the type of guy that, IMHO, will trade away any future we have, even if it is a Jay Bruce, as long as it mets Bob C's vision of WIN NOW.

Thank God I didn't buy any ticket packages this year. I have a feeling it's gonna get ugly.

I wonder how much impatience Bob will have with the "Walt and Dusty Show"?



When Castellini speaks from now on I am going to get my hip boots and waders on before I accept his words.

"We're just not going to lose anymore," Castellini said Wednesday.”

Really Bob ?

Are you an impatient man Bob?

Why is Fogg and Patterson still on your team Bob along with any other dead wood?

Bob you cleaned house yesterday but you left the clutter, chaff and fodder on your roster why?

Bob everybody along with the good and bad underneath you on the organizational chart is your responsibility.

The lack of talent, the wasting of financial resources on bad contracts, Bob, those fall back on your shoulders, where have you been Bob, have you had your head stuck in a cabbage somewhere Bob?

Bob you said Narron was doing a great job, Bob you said that Krivsky was doing a great job, Bob you fired them both, Bob you said that Mac was doing a good job. Bob your words lack credibility.

Bob your words aren't in sync with what has happened and with what is occurring and the results all along.

redsmetz
04-24-2008, 07:29 AM
Drafting talented players is half the battle -- but an idiot with a scouting department and a subscription to Baseball America can bring talent into an organization. This Reds regime seems to actually have aptitude for DEVELOPING talent through the minors. Players -- gasp -- seem to get better as they go along.

Krivsky deserves a lot of credit for that, IMO.

I've said this for a long time - I think Krivsky's insistence on level by level advancement would be in the longterm interest to the Reds and their player development. It was maddening I know with the masses clamoring for "win now, at all costs", but we were going to be better served by our players having success along each level of play. I fear that philosphy's bags are packed and at the station.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 07:35 AM
I've said this for a long time - I think Krivsky's insistence on level by level advancement would be in the longterm interest to the Reds and their player development. It was maddening I know with the masses clamoring for "win now, at all costs", but we were going to be better served by our players having success along each level of play. I fear that philosphy's bags are packed and at the station.


That very well could be true regressing back to the days of Marge and Bowden where the minor league system was left in a state that led and brought the Reds to where they are today. A mess that Bowden could not cleanup in years, a mess that O’Brien and Krivsky could not cleanup in a day.

Caveat Emperor
04-24-2008, 07:54 AM
A GM's primary job is to put a team together. The on-going saga of the bullpen and the mis-cast collection of pieces on this team's bench are examples of his problems with assembly. I'd love to see him stay on with the authority to do what he does best, but I'm glad we have a proven team builder as the actual GM at this point.

In Wayne's defense, bullpen pitching is among the most mercurial commodities in baseball. Washed-out starters can become high leverage relievers overnight, high-leverage relievers can look like softball pitchers a year later.

It often makes no sense whatsoever -- which is why Gary Majewski has a 10+ ERA in Louisville while Mike Lincoln, who hadn't thrown a baseball professionally in 4 years, is retiring hitters in the bigs.

Ltlabner
04-24-2008, 07:59 AM
That very well could be true regressing back to the days of Marge and Bowden where the minor league system was left in a state that led and brought the Reds to where they are today. A mess that Bowden could not cleanup in years, a mess that O’Brien and Krivsky could not cleanup in a day.

My biggest fear of The Jock is he will raid the farm system to get a few big names, we'll be in the thick of things for a few years and then we'll come crashing back to earth for another strech of time. The unreasonable "win now" people will be happy.....of coruse, until we hit the rough patch when the cubbard runs dry.

Maybe my fears are totally unjustified and based on antidote rather than fact. But in general, I'd rather stick with the slow rebuliding resulting in a decades long run than ending up like the White Sox.

Caveat Emperor
04-24-2008, 08:02 AM
But in general, I'd rather stick with the slow rebuliding resulting in a decades long run than ending up like the White Sox.

How's that process working for the Pirates, Brewers, Royals, etc.?

Not that I'm agreeing to sell the farm, but it's time to get off the treadmill and start actually running the race for a change.

FWIW, I don't think WK would've just let this club slow build either. I think he had to realize, as many do, that they're close enough to warrant a big deal to bring 1 or 2 'help now' guys in for 2009.

RFS62
04-24-2008, 08:11 AM
I hope that there's more to this than Castellini's impatience. But I fear that's what caused this. It's April. What could he possibly found out about Krivsky now that he couldn't have figured out by last October?

I wish Wayne well. I didn't agree with everything he did, but he did a lot more good than harm.



Yep. My take exactly. I too hoped there was more to this than we were hearing, but I'm afraid there isn't.

Castellini just sacked a fine man, a career baseball man who worked very hard to make the organization better.

Only time will tell if it was the right move. I don't need any more time to know that the method and timing were terrible.

Ltlabner
04-24-2008, 08:18 AM
How's that process working for the Pirates, Brewers, Royals, etc.?

Or the Braves, A's or St. Louis. I don't mean slow build like 12 years, and agree that with a few big/slick moves they could really be in the thick of things. But what got them to that point? It wasn't trading away all the tallent and trying to make a big splash. It was a serries of smaller moves that in isolation looked insignifcant, but in total has made an impact.

Wayne wasn't perfect, but I prefer his approach to hyperkentic trading just so we can win one world serries and suck for 3 years after that.


Yep. My take exactly. I too hoped there was more to this than we were hearing, but I'm afraid there isn't.

Agree 100%. Woke up this morning feeling like yesterdays move may/may not help the Reds but reflected horrably on BCast.

redsmetz
04-24-2008, 08:22 AM
I think you and others ripped him after he started coming back to earth in 06 also. I wouldn't pat yourself on the back for that reason. He's streaky and I doubt he stays down for long.

Well, when the standard MO around RZ is to be down about most any Reds transaction, when someone fails, it always leads to an "I told you so".

OldXOhio
04-24-2008, 08:30 AM
Krivsky didn't give Cast a winner.

Cast knows what Jocketty has done, and can do. Now we get to see if Jocketty will give Cast a winner.

I might be alone, but I'm eager to see what happens.

No, I'm with you - I was excited the day Walt got the adviser position. Everyone knew it was eventually going to lead to some form of leadership position. The problem for me is this notion that WK didn't provide Cast a winner. To think that this turnaround was going to be a two year process is ludicrous. Despite some of the deficiencies on the current roster, there did seem to be a plan in place. A consistent winner did seem to be on the not too distant horizon.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 08:34 AM
Just sixty days ago on February 24 an article was posted, they were saying quite a bit of positives that reflected highly on Krivsky, and yesterday they said something completely different.

Just sixty days ago :

“What Jocketty thinks of the job Krivsky has done could decide Krivsky's future with the Reds. Jocketty gives Krivsky high marks so far.

"My first early impression - I told Bob this - I was impressed with the number of quality arms, young arms," Jocketty said. "I think they're very fortunate to have the guys they have. Not just guys we've all been talking about like (Homer) Bailey, (Johnny) Cueto, (Matt) Maloney and (Edinson) Volquez. You look at (Josh) Roenicke and (Marcus) McBeth and some of the other guys. It's impressive.

"I haven't seen the position players that much. But the talent is good. It bodes well for the long-term future of this organization."

Walt, what changed your mind so quickly? If Bob was taking your advice then what happened to your assessment here?

Interesting if you type in Castellini in search what you will find from previous discussions and in print and that many of you were correct long before the final outcomes existed.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65673&highlight=Castellini

A brain for the Reds' trust
Reds insider: Jocketty's tenure as an adviser is open-ended; Krivsky's may depend on this season
BY JOHN FAY | JFAY@ENQUIRER.COM

SARASOTA, Fla. - When Walt Jocketty was hired, a lot of people assumed that time was ticking on Wayne Krivsky's tenure as Reds general manager.

But six weeks into Jocketty's tenure as special adviser to the president and CEO, Jocketty says it's possible the current arrangement could last well into the future.

"I kind of look at my role as like Gerry Hunsicker has in Tampa Bay: try to help mentor and advise and add whatever input we can," Jocketty said.

Hunsicker, the former Houston GM, is a vice president of baseball operations for the Rays. Andrew Friedman holds a similar title, but he runs the day-to-day operations as a GM.

So Jocketty could stay on in a role between the GM and CEO Bob Castellini.

Whether that GM will be Krivsky depends on what happens this season. Krivsky's in the final year of his contract. This is very much his team.

Castellini is not patient when it comes to winning. The Reds came close to winning in Krivsky's and Castellini's first year when the club went 80-82. The Reds regressed to 72-90 last year.

If the Reds had continued to improve last year, there's a chance that Jocketty would not be here.

But he was available after parting ways with the St. Louis Cardinals after 13 years as GM. Jocketty's tenure included six division titles, two National League pennants and a World Series title.

Castellini knew Jocketty from Castellini's days as a part owner in St. Louis. Castellini says a guy with Jocketty's résumé was too good to pass up, so he created a job for him.

"He's a sounding board, a terrific sounding board," Castellini said. "Baseball is very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses."What Jocketty thinks of the job Krivsky has done could decide Krivsky's future with the Reds. Jocketty gives Krivsky high marks so far.

"My first early impression - I told Bob this - I was impressed with the number of quality arms, young arms," Jocketty said. "I think they're very fortunate to have the guys they have. Not just guys we've all been talking about like (Homer) Bailey, (Johnny) Cueto, (Matt) Maloney and (Edinson) Volquez. You look at (Josh) Roenicke and (Marcus) McBeth and some of the other guys. It's impressive.

"I haven't seen the position players that much. But the talent is good. It bodes well for the long-term future of this organization."

Krivsky inherited Bailey and Cueto, but Krivsky acquired Maloney, Volquez and McBeth in trades. Roenicke was selected in Krivsky's first draft.

Krivsky said his job has not changed since Jocketty came in.

"Not at all," he said. "Certainly I keep Walt informed, so he's in the loop. But I still report directly to Bob."

Jocketty is easing his way into the operation.

"It's different making adjustments when you're in one situation as long as I was," Jocketty said, "then changing and coming over to a new organization. You never know what to expect or anticipate."

He's liked what he's seen.

"I've really been impressed with the people in this organization," he said. "Everyone's treated me well. There's definitely some quality people here in the front office. It's an organization on the move up. They work hard. They made me feel welcome right away, which is important."

Krivsky and Jocketty have spent a lot of time together.

"It's all about communication," Krivsky said. "We've been out to eat a lot - sometimes with a group of people. He wants to know everybody."

The Jocketty-Krivsky relationship is key if this arrangement's going to work.

"I've spent a lot of time with Wayne and I'm trying to help wherever I can with him," he said. "I've been through everything he's going to experience.

"The main thing I'm doing right now - Bob has asked me to observe and offer assistance when I can."

Jocketty will continue to evaluate both the major-league and minor-league operations.

The bottom line of the analysis will be: Can we win?

"Bob wants this organization to be successful as soon as possible," Jocketty said.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.d...OL09/802240419

jojo
04-24-2008, 08:48 AM
Or the Braves, A's or St. Louis. I don't mean slow build like 12 years, and agree that with a few big/slick moves they could really be in the thick of things. But what got them to that point? It wasn't trading away all the tallent and trying to make a big splash. It was a serries of smaller moves that in isolation looked insignifcant, but in total has made an impact.

Wayne wasn't perfect, but I prefer his approach to hyperkentic trading just so we can win one world serries and suck for 3 years after that.



Agree 100%. Woke up this morning feeling like yesterdays move may/may not help the Reds but reflected horrably on BCast.

At this point, I'd prefer AN approach. I'm not sure this FO really has one. End the losing is pretty ambiguous as visions go when it comes to implementation.

Anyway, the point is that it's a little scary to wonder if there is really a plan here. Have we all assumed too much (or to put it another way, does ownership have a clue)?

MikeS21
04-24-2008, 08:48 AM
What they actually lost was that they traded two players that, should have brought back more than what they did. Nothing down the road (Bray/Thompson) will change that because the trade was made to 'win now', just as Castellini had asked him to do. It's just that Wayne picked a couple of guys that were bad choices.
Rem
And here is where we disagree.

Austin Kearns, at the time of the trade, had lost his starting job to Ryan Freel. The Reds wanted Freel's speed and his "table-setting" abilities in the lineup every day. Dunn and Griffey weren't going to sit, and Krivsky had just brought in Phillips to play 2B. Encarnacion made the team as the 3B out of spring training that year. So that left Freel in the OF, and also left Kearns as the odd man out. It makes no difference that Austin was a former first round pick. His numbers were getting worse by the day, and his trade value was plummeting faster than Hillary Clinton changes hair-do's.

It hurts our pride to admit it, but I seriously doubt any GM in baseball valued Austin Kearns as highly as Reds fans think he should have been valued. And I don't believe a single word of those reports from "anonymous" baseball officials who claim, "We offered a better deal than Bowden." Let's face it, Krivsky traded a 4th OF, a SS who SHOULD have been a bench player, and a "head case" minor league pitcher, for two relief pitchers, whose numbers at the time indicated the Reds were getting immediate help for the bullpen, and a minor league pitcher.


Actually, Majewski had been had been only average or slightly better than average before the trade and has always lacked the ability to make hitters miss bats in a good ratio the the number of free passes he allowed. Which brings me to the pharse, 'Based on all of the information at his disposal....' This one point stands out like a nudist at an Amish house raising. Krivsky simply failed to do his due diligence. It doesn't matter who he was dealing with, it is a basic when making a trade: get the latest medical records! It may have been a rookie mistake but it was, nonetheless, a major mistake on Krivsky's part and always will be. We'll never know but, had Wayne done the prudent thing maybe 'the trade' would have never been made and things may have turned out better for all concerned. (shrug)
On the day of "The Trade", Majewski had pitched 160+ innings (spread over three years) at the major league level. He had a lifetime 3.28 ERA. I call that "better" than average. His lifetime WHIP at the moment of the trade was 1.38. While a 1.38 WHIP isn't awe-inspiring, it's not too shabby considering that at the same point in his career (2.5 years) Aaron Harang had a lifetime WHIP over 1.77.

I do agree that Krivsky bears direct responsibility over the medical reports. Sure he should have checked the dates on the reports, But I wouldn't put it past JimBo to "mix up" medical reports in some manner, if he thought it would land him Austin Kearns and FeLo.

Unassisted
04-24-2008, 09:02 AM
Walt, what changed your mind so quickly? If Bob was taking your advice then what happened to your assessment here?
Listening to the presser, it was clear that this move was initiated by Castellini's impatience and not by some negative evaluation from Jocketty. Jocketty only learned it was coming on Tuesday night when he got a phone call from Castellini offering him the job.

redsmetz
04-24-2008, 09:22 AM
Well, not to be snide, but with another loss under our belt, I wonder when the losing is actually going to stop. Is Bob's inpatience going to rear it's head again? Oh well.

Sea Ray
04-24-2008, 09:22 AM
Now here's my concern. Jocketty will trade off all the depth the Reds have gathered in the minor leagues in order to bring in players he assumes will maintain their level of play. He will use pretty much the same criteria to guage talent as Krivsky (except he might treat his advisors a little nicer in the process). But the end result is he depletes the farm system by bringing in other players - like Majewski - who, on paper, should help this team, but who very probably will fail to live up to their billing. As a fan, that is unacceptable.



I think that concern is unfounded. The in-game interview he gave on TV showed that he greatly values the farm system. He emphasized setting up this team to win in the longterm and that's exactly what he did in St Louis. They still haven't had a really down year. The only way you win in the longterm is by emphasizing the farm system

Sea Ray
04-24-2008, 09:28 AM
Woke up this morning feeling like yesterdays move may/may not help the Reds but reflected horrably on BCast.

I see it the opposite way. Jocketty is the most qualified GM we've had here in a long, long time. In fact he's the first GM we've hired with some experience since the pre Jim Bowden years.

I praise Cast for having the guts to make this tough decision. This team can't afford any more Corey Patterson or Bronson Arroyo contracts...

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 09:30 AM
How about the length of the contract that he was given? That's the thing for me is that so many FO's/owners in sports complain about players and contracts but they turn around and do stuff like this. The guy was given a nearly bare minor leagues to work with, a 25 man that was more like a 3 or 4 man w/ massive amounts of 4A types or role players and with very little money to work with? And the worst part is he was able to improve not only the minors but the 25 man also with very few mega-contracts. And IMO only Cordero's contract could be considered overpaying (unless Arroyo continues to stink it up) at least from the contracts that WK had a part in. Sure he gave more $$$'s to about 4-5 guys than he should have but by no means in todays game is 3 or 4 million a mega contract.

Too me it was headed in the right direction and as soon as Jr's money was off the books that would have really given Wayne something to work with.


In all fairness, the improvements Wayne has made have not translated to the W-L record improving, other than 2006. 2007 was a pretty big regression, and I think that's what put Wayne on thin ice. Cast wants to see progress. He doesn't want to see an 80 win team (2006) turn into a 72 win team (2007). Wayne was given one final chance to right the ship, but the team's bad start doomed him. Also, if you analyze this team objectively, it is not even a 500 caliber team.

Wayne brought in some good players, no doubt. He also brought in a bunch of bad ones (or extended bad ones). Let's look at how the team was contructed on the day he left. As the 2008 season started, let's look at the impact Wayne has made, by looking at the net result of his changes?

looking good:
Volquez, Phillips, Cordero, Keppinger

Questionable (might be good, might be bad):
Arroyo, the rest of the bullpen (although some less questionable than others),
Patterson,

Bad:
AGon, 3 catchers, Castro, Stanton


Considering that Cordero is here simply because he went to the highest bidder, Wayne's "Rebuilding" is not that impressive, especially considering that he made many poor decisions that cost a lot of money and extended guys like Freel that shouldn't have been.

I think if Jr was let go and Wayne had another 11 million to spend after this season, he'd probably spend it poorly. Wayne has had plenty of money to play with in the offseason, but made poor choices

I honestly think 2007 sunk Wayne. Last year was a disaster and Wayne didn't give Cast any hope that 2008 would be any better. Wayne had plenty of money and plenty of prospects to trade. I'm not saying he should've raped the farm system, but he could've traded Homer or someone that is in the minors now and improved the offense/defense. That's one of Wayne's biggest faults. He is so focused on getting pitching that he largely ignored the position players. His comment after the trade about how he didn't care about who played SS is very telling.

princeton
04-24-2008, 09:32 AM
Yep. My take exactly. I too hoped there was more to this than we were hearing, but I'm afraid there isn't.

Castellini just sacked a fine man, a career baseball man who worked very hard to make the organization better.

Only time will tell if it was the right move. I don't need any more time to know that the method and timing were terrible.


my suspicion has always been that Cast meddled from day 1. Krivsky was brilliant at times, but also made some "now" moves that reeked of pressure from a win-now owner tempered by a GM that wanted to build the infrastructure. Cast was the Whirlpool, and Wayne was the Big Rock. It made for some turbulent navigation.

Didn't like some of the major league relievers that were traded for or signed? Didn't like how quickly a certain wunder-arm was called up? That's not going to change, IMO, because THAT instigator hasn't fired himelf. He gave Krivsky only a 2 year deal, which was goofy, praised a 2006 team that really had no chance, and cut on a 2008 team that's really quite interesting. That guy is staying.

I'm confident that Cast is a guy who would have fired any really good GM that didn't win quickly, from Billy Beane to Mark Shapiro to Branch Freaking Rickey. Joy.

What we've lost is the one that fixed farm, development, rotation, and middle infield in very, VERY short order. I would have given Krivsky more influence, but instead Cast has been increasing his own role since the end of 2006.

A Bruce/Bedard deal probably would have saved his job. THAT'S how goofy things are in Cincinnati.

to me, Krivsky was the right GM for Cincinnati, just not the right GM for Cincinnati's owner.

I know Jocketty very well. Unlike Wayne, he has no skill with the minors. Finding and developing young arms? it's problematic. Like Wayne, he seems to have some people problems, and like Wayne is good at finding undervalued major league talent. however, his Cardinal teams underachieved their talent level for years-- just couldn't win the big one. for years, I started numerous threads on how Cards had the talent again, but would have to fall short because they still lacked heart. Then, Jocketty finally made the big heart acquisition: David Eckstein (a signing that I believe was trashed by all but one poster, moi, who said that at LAST the Cards would win a World Series under Jocketty). oh yes, I know Jocketty well.

So I predict an increase in talent, a pretty good record for a small market, but underachievement and an eventual decay of the farm system that seemed to be getting things together.

he's probably the right GM for this owner. He should last longer. But, you never know.

TRF
04-24-2008, 09:33 AM
Your points are superb, but Krivsky did do some astonishingly good things:
-He brought the Reds farm system from a 27th BA ranking to 4th in MLB in only two years.
-He acquired Hamilton (and in turn Volquez) and Brandon Phillips for almost nothing. Their value alone more than offsets the Castro, Stanton, and Freel money combined.
-He stole a top closer from a division rival. Not easy to do in this world of loose lips.

Yet, I think he had to go for this one reason: when charged with patching a specific hole in the team immediately during the season, he was unable to effectively go out and get the players to do so. The Reds are at a stage where they can make a run at the division and they need their deficiencies dealt with in short order. Good call by Castellini.

I think Krivsky gets just a little too much credit for the state of the farm. Just as he's laid the foundation for Jocketty, DanO, and to a lesser extent JimBo laid the foundation for him. Votto was JimBo's pick, Cueto, Bailey and Bruce were DanO picks/acquisitions.

But it was more than that. Dano had some really goofy ideas, take a pitch, tandem starter, but the fact is the major arm issues went down in his two years. A lot of the minor leaguers he acquired, Krivsky traded off for sometimes decent, sometimes not so decent acquisitions. But the fact is he had chips to trade because of DanO and the regimes before him.

That said, while I'm none to pleased with Krivsky's 1st rd. selections, his picks after the first round have been very good. His policies for development of minor leaguers were more refined than DanO's, but netted a similar result in that surgeries again stayed low, and players have begun to thrive under his watch.

I think this whole situation was handled piss-poor.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 09:34 AM
IIRC Cordero's people didn't let the Brewers know who was offering that. The Brewers were a bit skeptical of this "mystery" team and refused to get into a bidding war.


Ok, that's fine, but it's not as if Wayne did some super stealth move.
If I remember, the Reds topped the Brewers' offer by a couple million.
The Brewers had already given their best offer to Cordero.

My point is that there was no skill involved in signing Cordero. Milwaukee had made a take-it-or-leave-it offer. Milwaukee may have been surprised the Reds signed him, since the Reds traditionally do not sign Class A free agents, but that doesn't mean Wayne displayed any extraordinary skills. Wayne was the guy in the auction holding up his hand, determined to buy the thing up for auction, regardless of how high the price went. How is that a skill? Any GM could've signed Cordero, it was all about money.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 09:36 AM
True I think it would be silly of us to think the Brewers didn't know until after everything was a done deal. However I think Wayne keeping things hush had to have helped some.


I doubt it helped at all. Milwaukee wasn't going to budge on their final offer, regardless of whether Cordero was going to a division opponent or not.

Time will tell on whether that was a wise decision for them (and the Reds) or not.

nate
04-24-2008, 09:36 AM
At this point, I'd prefer AN approach. I'm not sure this FO really has one. End the losing is pretty ambiguous as visions go when it comes to implementation.

Anyway, the point is that it's a little scary to wonder if there is really a plan here. Have we all assumed too much (or to put it another way, does ownership have a clue)?

Actually, I think the owner and management need to have the _same_ plan. I don't think that was the case with BC and WK.

It might now be the case with BC and WJ.

Falls City Beer
04-24-2008, 09:39 AM
I am frankly stunned at how much love that Bray gets around here when he's done nothing at the MLB level.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 09:41 AM
Some more good ones from the past.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61337&highlight=Castellini

Just talked to Bob Castellini, will get you the quotes when I transcribe the tape. The basic idea of the statements were that Wayne's job was safe and that Wayne has a plan and Bob thinks it's a good one. He would not comment on Adam Dunn's option, but he did have positive words for Dunn's performance.

Bob Castellini had an impromptu session with beat writers this afternoon. He was asked point blank if GM Wayne Krivsky's job was in trouble.

"No," he said. "He's done a good job."

Other tidbits:

On Krivsky: “Wayne’s a plugger. He keeps at it – a lot of determination.”

On a plan: “I think Wayne is taking a studied approach to it. We’re’ on the same page.

Is he pleased with the job interim manager Pete Mackanin has done? “All of us are. He has a nice way about him. He communicates well with the players.”

On naming a permanent manager: “We’ll take a look at it after the season. Pete’s doing a good job. There’s no sense talking about it now."


Here's the Bob Castellini stuff:

On Wayne Krivsky: "Wayne’s a plugger. He’s a plugger. He just keeps after it. A lot of determination."

"I think Wayne is taking a studied approach to everything,” Castellini said. “We’re on the same page.”

Is Krivsky's job in jeopardy? “No.”

"He’s done a good job overall,” Castellini said. “He’s trying really hard, we’re all trying hard.”

On Dunn's option: “I’m not going to talk about it,” Castellini said. “Adam’s playing good baseball. Did you see him last night? I congratulated him, he did that 100-yard dash around the bases. He’s getting key hits, he won the game for us the other night. He’s a talented ballplayer.”

Watch out Adam you are next…….if the Castellini pattern continues.

On Pete Mackanin: "All of us have (been impressed), he’s got a nice way about him. He communicates well with the players."

"Pete’s doing a good job, there’s no sense talking about it right now."

On the team: "If you hang around these guys, you can feel the optimism."

"The players haven’t given up, they’re not playing for individual stats, they’re playing like a team."

June 24, 2007

Thread on the possibility of Jocketty coming to Cincy

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59677&highlight=Castellini

Krono calls it - “I could see this happening”

FCB misses it - “You'd pooh-pooh Jocketty?

Boy oh boy.

It won't happen though.”

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 09:45 AM
The more I think about this, one event sticks out as one of the nails in the coffin of Wayne Krivsky and may give us insight into the man's communication skills that someone mentioned.

I hae no ideas where I read this, but apparently somewhere Dusty mentioned that he had no idea Wayne was acquiring Josh Fogg. The disaster that Fogg became probably hacked off Dusty and he began to lobby for Wayne's dismissal. Also consider the little problems with Bucky Dent and Johnny Alvarez.

Just a theory. If a guy is looking to fire someone, he didn't need amunition from the manager and other cronies.

I also have the feeling that Wayne was ready to keep Stanton on the roster all year in an attempt to save face. Dusty had to resort to lobbying in the press to get rid of Stanton.

When Wayne made a bad move, it took him way too long to cut bait.

Ironically, even though Wayne is viewed as a long term thinker, I think his impulsiveness was a big weakness.. He paniced when he picked up Cormier, Stanton, Maj, etc. Many decisions were clearly not thought through.. He obviously just assumed the offense would take care of itself, and never seemed to attempt to replace the offense he traded away.

RFS62
04-24-2008, 09:48 AM
my suspicion has always been that Cast meddled from day 1. Krivsky was brilliant at times, but also made some "now" moves that reeked of pressure from a win-now owner tempered by a GM that wanted to build the infrastructure. Cast was the Whirlpool, and Wayne was the Big Rock. It made for some turbulent navigation.

Didn't like some of the major league relievers that were traded for or signed? Didn't like how quickly a certain wunder-arm was called up? That's not going to change, IMO, because THAT instigator hasn't fired himelf. He gave Krivsky only a 2 year deal, which was goofy, praised a 2006 team that really had no chance, and cut on a 2008 team that's really quite interesting. That guy is staying.

I'm confident that Cast is a guy who would have fired any really good GM that didn't win quickly, from Billy Beane to Mark Shapiro to Branch Freaking Rickey. Joy.

What we've lost is the one that fixed farm, development, rotation, and middle infield in very, VERY short order. I would have given Krivsky more influence, but instead Cast has been increasing his own role since the end of 2006.

A Bruce/Bedard deal probably would have saved his job. THAT'S how goofy things are in Cincinnati.

to me, Krivsky was the right GM for Cincinnati, just not the right GM for Cincinnati's owner.

I know Jocketty very well. Unlike Wayne, he has no skill with the minors. Finding and developing young arms? it's problematic. Like Wayne, he seems to have some people problems, and like Wayne is good at finding undervalued major league talent. however, his Cardinal teams underachieved their talent level for years-- just couldn't win the big one. for years, I started numerous threads on how Cards had the talent again, but would have to fall short because they still lacked heart. Then, Jocketty finally made the big heart acquisition: David Eckstein (a signing that I believe was trashed by all but one poster, moi, who said that at LAST the Cards would win a World Series under Jocketty). oh yes, I know Jocketty well.

So I predict an increase in talent, a pretty good record for a small market, but underachievement and an eventual decay of the farm system that seemed to be getting things together.

he's probably the right GM for this owner. He should last longer. But, you never know.



Outstanding post.

I just heard Krivsky's interview from last night on XM. He was completely blindsided, no clue at all when he came to work that anything was going on.

And you sure could hear it in his voice. He was devestated. He didn't say anything derogatory at all towards the Reds, gracious and thankful for his opportunity.

I'm convinced that Krivsky's days were numbered the minute Jocketty became available. Castellini wanted him and he got him.

So, now we've got Bob Castbrenner running the ship. Careful, though, you might get tossed overboard if he has a bad day.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 09:50 AM
Listening to the presser, it was clear that this move was initiated by Castellini's impatience and not by some negative evaluation from Jocketty. Jocketty only learned it was coming on Tuesday night when he got a phone call from Castellini offering him the job.

Castellini said that Jocketty was an adviser. I got the impresson that Castellini highly valued Jocketty's input.

Jocketty gave high marks to Krivsky. I was wondering why Castellini disregarded Jocketty's remark and high grade of Krivsky.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 09:51 AM
There was one thing Krivsky wanted to set straight, and that was about reliever Rheal Cormier. Cormier was designated for assignment early last season after a poor start, and was reportedly owed about $2.25 million.

“Just so you all know, there was a whole bunch of money in one transaction that paid for Rheal Cormier’s contract,” Krivsky said.

“I guess I can come forward with that right now. There was $2.08 million in one transaction that paid for his contract specifically, so if you can wipe that one off my ledger, I’d appreciate that,” Krivsky said.

Wayne, you had a classy speech until that point. No matter how you spin it, it was a horrible move to trade for the guy and then another horrible move to extend him. If you got 2 million in another trade or sent with Cormier, that doesn't matter. Quit trying to make excuses on your way out and take it like a man. Cormier is going to remain on your ledger.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 09:54 AM
If part of the reason for Wayne's sacking was the bad contracts, Walt may be a little shy to sign anyone to a big money deal, not to mention a mega-huge deal like Dunn.

I think Cast will continue to spend money, he'll just tolerate fewer mistakes.
He's probably going to have to eat some money to clean up the mess Wayne has made. The club is probably going to want to keep Hopper, so someone must be traded or eaten in the next 2 weeks.

The reason I think Cast will continue to spend money is that he just signed Cordero to a big deal, despite the fact that Wayne was clinging precariously to his job at the teim.

Unassisted
04-24-2008, 10:02 AM
Castellini said that Jocketty was an adviser. I got the impresson that Castellini highly valued Jocketty's input.

Jocketty gave high marks to Krivsky. I was wondering why Castellini disregarded Jocketty's remark and high grade of Krivsky.I took what Castellini said at face value. He ran out of patience and blamed Krivsky for the team not winning. He also mentioned that eating contracts was a factor. If Jocketty's review of Krivsky's performance was positive, it was overshadowed in Castellini's mind by W/L and expensive DFAs.

M2
04-24-2008, 10:04 AM
a signing that I believe was trashed by all but one poster, moi, who said that at LAST the Cards would win a World Series under Jocketty

There is a gap between what you believe and what occurred on that matter. I know for a fact that I liked and praised the move and I remember others doing so as well (though it was a minority who did).

I agree with you about Krivsky having added a lot in his short time with the franchise. He's going to look very Bergesch in the rear view I suspect. Also, with Volquez-for-Hamilton he might have made Murray Cook's Rijo trade on top of laying the foundation for future success (though Rijo's an awfully high standard to meet).

Jocketty should know from experience that improvement is rarely linear. The Cardinals surged in '96 and '98 only to fall back in '97 and '99. The two things he's got going for him are a sterling reputation and the adoration of the owner. That might enable him to absorb the sort of 1989ish clunker that got Cook fired and hang around long enough to pull a Bob Quinn.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 10:05 AM
I took what Castellini said at face value. He ran out of patience and blamed Krivsky for the team not winning. He also mentioned that eating contracts was a factor. If Jocketty's review was positive, it was overshadowed in Castellini's mind by W/L and expensive DFAs.

I understand your postion and perception.

I took Castellini at his word and at face value all along.

I find in review of his various comments over time that I can no longer do that.

princeton
04-24-2008, 10:06 AM
There is a gap between what you believe and what occurred on that matter. I know for a fact that I liked and praised the move and I remember others doing so as well (though it was a minority who did).

I agree with you about Krivsky having added a lot in his short time with the franchise. He's going to look very Bergesch in the rear view I suspect. Also, with Volquez-for-Hamilton he might have made Murray Cook's Rijo trade on top of laying the foundation for future success (though Rijo's an awfully high standard to meet).

Jocketty should know from experience that improvement is rarely linear. The Cardinals surged in '96 and '98 only to fall back in '97 and '99. The two things he's got going for him are a sterling reputation and the adoration of the owner. That might enable him to absorb the sort of 1989ish clunker that got Cook fired and hang around long enough to pull a Bob Quinn.

anything to draw you out. Nice post

M2
04-24-2008, 10:07 AM
anything to draw you out. Nice post

I'm hardly the shy and retiring type. I've just been busy of late.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 10:12 AM
I think Cast will continue to spend money, he'll just tolerate fewer mistakes.

I hope that he is less tollerant of his own.

I am starting to get suspicous that Castellini may have been making several mistakes of his own along the way from personnel to contracts and dollars.

Can his judgement not be called into question?
Can we trust his judgement regarding personnel, contracts and money anymore?

How much influence did he exert on past managers and Krivsky's decisions on player personnel?

How much influence did his power and authority influence or how much did Castellini directly order that we have not known about?

vaticanplum
04-24-2008, 10:13 AM
"He's a sounding board, a terrific sounding board," Castellini said. "Baseball is very, very complex business. It's more of a people business than most businesses."

Not only do I think this is a lame reason to fire someone if he's doing a good job, I also think it's complete baloney. Most of the people I've met within baseball have the people skills of a shower cap.

If he found a person whom he considers to be better suited for the job, I can totally get behind that. I would respect him more if he just came out and said it though. This is a minor, conclusion-drawing issue though.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 10:19 AM
Who is gonna kick Cast's booty? As far as I'm concerned, as the owner, he is solely responsible for this situation. So why is he getting a free pass as if all this is WK's fault?

He HIRED Krivsky


Yes, he hired Wayne. In hindsight, it was a mistake to hire Wayne. But at least Cast corrected that. It would've probably been better to fire Wayne at the end of last season.






Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.
Bob had nothing to do, no involvement (giving his OK) to even those bad deals/trades that turned awry?


The owner isn't supposed to be the one to judge if Hamilton-Volquez is a good trade or not. I don't want the owner involved in trades. When Allen micromanaged every trade, it was a disaster because all he cared about was the bottom line. I don't want Cast having any input on trades, other than saying whether he'll pay for it or not.

And signing Dusty was a great move, IMO. Maybe you disagree, but Dusty is going to help EdE, Coffey, and the entire team.





I'm not saying the GM doesn't carry any culpibility. Wayne certainly does. And there are probably several sound reasons to justify his firing. The timing really sucked.


How is the timing bad? Now is a good time. It gives Walt time to prepare for the trade deadline and draft. Bad timing is firing someone on July 15, two weeks before the trading deadline. Just about any other time to fire the GM is fine.





Totally classless of this owner who sites his impatience as the sole reason IMO. But I'm also tired of an owner who keeps saying he's tired of losing, want's to win now (which seems to appease some), and as far as I'm concerned is the main culprit.


Wayne dug his own grade by following up 2006 (80 wins) with a 72 win season. Wayne knew that he darn well better put a winner on the field in 2008, but instead he continued to follow his own agenda. If he had traded for Haren instead of Volquez, kept Hamilton, picked up a RH bat and a catcher, he might still have a job now. He knew he was on thin ice and didn't do what the boss wanted.

After 7 years of losing, the fans have a right to be impatient. Bob knows this is going to be another losing season (as anyone objective will see). Where's the progress? I don't see it. The good players Wayne brought in were offseet by poor decision making.

Also, based on what we've heard about Wayne's managerial and people skills, I'm surprised he lasted this long. Posters can praise him for "not screwing up Ceuto", but Wayne also ran the guy that signed Cueto out of town.





Ya gotta have your scapegoat I guess.


I don't follow your logic. Who else should get the blame for the 72 win season last year? The team was pretty healthy last year. Jr got hurt in the last month, but other than that, they were injury free.

Perhaps they stunk last year because Wayne insisted on having Stanton and Maj on the roster? Perhaps they stunk because Wayne doesn't care who played SS that year (Wayne's own words in 2006 when one of his advisors asked him that).

If Wayne is not responsible for 2007, who is? Wayne's 2007 is why Cast brought Jocketty in. The 9-12 start isn't what got him fired, it was just the last straw.





We all pretty much knew that when Jocketty was brought in as a "special advisor" that Wayne's days were numbered.


Yep, that was smart of Cast. The 2007 team was proof Wayne wasn't the man for the job.



They hired a BIG NAME manager, and now have their BIG NAME GM. I'm really impressed. :rolleyes:


He'll win you over, just like Dusty will :)



Symbolism over substance as far as I'm concerned.


So you were happy with the status quo? Satisfied with mediocrity?
Seeing Sampson of the Astros dominate the Reds last night was not fun at all. This is freaking Sampson. He stinks, just like the Pirate pitchers that schooled us, but Wayne's weak offense was helpless.




There were sound reasons as to why these two were FIRED from their previous jobs.


And there was a sound reason to fire Wayne.
Walt has his faults too, but I like him better than Wayne.





They had no farm system in St. Louis, and Jocketty acknowledges that this is an area where he has no expertise, and is a weakness.


If Walt can give us a run of division titles like he did in St Louis, then I don't care about what our farm system is ranked at. The St Louis farm system is not that bad. It provided a steady stream of trade bait, as well as players that contributed to the team.



Yes, that is a concern for me. He's the type of guy that, IMHO, will trade away any future we have, even if it is a Jay Bruce, as long as it mets Bob C's vision of WIN NOW.

And I'm fine with that. That was Wayne's weakness. He refused to trade any prospects to win. Cast's mission statement isn't to be the #1 farm system.
His mission is to win. Despite the great farm system ranking we have this year and last year, the team is still losing. When Bruce and Homer are called up, we aren't suddenly going to be a contender.






I wonder how much impatience Bob will have with the "Walt and Dusty Show"?

They'll probably get about 3 years, and if they don't get results, they'll be canned too, which is fair.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 10:19 AM
Not only do I think this is a lame reason to fire someone if he's doing a good job, I also think it's complete baloney. Most of the people I've met within baseball have the people skills of a shower cap.

If he found a person whom he considers to be better suited for the job, I can totally get behind that. I would respect him more if he just came out and said it though. This is a minor, conclusion-drawing issue though.

Yes exactly.

Why doesn't he come out and say what he means and mean what he says regarding the people that he hires or retains? I suspect that he is a part of the problem in Redsland.

redsmetz
04-24-2008, 10:26 AM
I understand your postion and perception.

I took Castellini at his word and at face value all along.

I find in review of his various comments over time that I can no longer do that.

I think this is what I take from this episode. I took Castellini to be a straight shooter; that when he and Krivsky talked about Jockety giving valuable input; I naively believed that Bob C was a made of his word. Clearly that seems to have been untrue. I'm concerned we're back to more of the same old disfunction in Redsland. I hope I'm wrong.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 10:35 AM
Saw Jocketty on TV during the game. He talked again about delegating a lot. As others have pointed out, he doesn't seem ready to work his a** off like Krivsky did. Let's not forget that just a few months ago he called GMing a young man's job. We'll see, but I suspect this new regime will feature a big splashy move or two, but won't do the grunt work to supplement with undervalued talent (the rule Vers, the extra kid in trades, the waiver wire), leaving the organization poorer in the long run. Hope I'm wrong.

Awesome. Castellini hired a GM who is going to half ass it.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 10:38 AM
I took Castellini to be a straight shooter; that when he and Krivsky talked about Jockety giving valuable input; I naively believed that Bob C was a made of his word. Clearly that seems to have been untrue. I'm concerned we're back to more of the same old disfunction in Redsland. I hope I'm wrong.

I did too, now I am wondering if Castellini is the dysfunctional god father.

Ltlabner
04-24-2008, 10:42 AM
I did too, now I am wondering if Castellini is the dysfunctional god father.

Nah, he's the ram-rod straight fire-eating "win at all costs" sorta guy. You know the ones...they cross their arms, stomp their feet and huff & puff until they get their way. I want to win....and if we don't, I'll say it louder until it happens.

And along the way I'll run off some good people, force rash decisions to be made and generally make a mess of things. Oh yea, we may or may not actually end up winning.

M2
04-24-2008, 10:43 AM
One thing that probably ought to be dispelled about Jocketty is that he isn't all that good at running a farm system. He was the farm director for the A's during a particularly fertile run for that system in the 1980s. They did far better with position players than pitchers (most teams do), but you can make the argument that the Reds' most pressing need right now is some difference-making position players.

It's doubtful the system will get as many star turns as it did that past 2+ years under Krivsky, but that was the case even if Krivsky stayed. Still, Jocketty has and can run a quality feeder system.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 10:45 AM
Nah, he's the ram-rod straight fire-eating "win at all costs" sorta guy. You know the ones...they cross their arms, stomp their feet and huff & puff until they get their way. I want to win....and if we don't, I'll say it louder until it happens.

And along the way I'll run off some good people, force rash decisions to be made and generally make a mess of things. Oh yea, we may or may not actually end up winning.

psst, but he doesn't mention that last line, he just fires people and says HE DID IT. for public consumption ;)

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 10:46 AM
How Gosh, you'd think Krivsky was a saint or something after reading this board tonight. Nowhere in the history of baseball has a GM taken a team from the 80-82 mark to 91-103 mark and get so many laurels. The team was not getting better. It was getting worse.


I don't get all the cries for St Wayne either.
But I guess some people love a GM that never trades prospects, because hope springs eternal. Just like there was so much hope for Belisle over the off season.

Walt has a lot of work to do. Our talent is thinner at the ML level than when Wayne arrived, despite all this young talent that DanO drafted and Wayne "didn't screw up". As Dusty said, we have 13 pending FAs, so the club was about to enter a big transition regardless of Wayne's planning.
Walt has some bad contracts that Wayne saddled him with.

There's more to building a winning club than having 3 pr 4 solid starting pitchers. Wayne never learned that.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 10:51 AM
But I guess some people love a GM that never trades prospects, because hope springs eternal. Just like there was so much hope for Belisle over the off season.

:confused: I did not realize that when O'Brien and Krivsky came that the Reds had any prospects worth trading? Denorfia and Hamilton were basically prospects, he traded them. But what prospects did he have to trade? Cueto, Bailey, Bray?



There's more to building a winning club than having 3 pr 4 solid starting pitchers. Wayne never learned that.

When did the Reds have 3-4 solid starting pitchers? They lost seven straight years because they did not have good pitching starting or bullpen. This year it appears that they are improved, who did that?

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 10:53 AM
Why is Fogg and Patterson still on your team Bob along with any other dead wood?

Bob you cleaned house yesterday but you left the clutter, chaff and fodder on your roster why?
.

You don't want the owner making player moves, do you?

Patterson and Fogg are here because Wayne brought them in.

Patience is preached, but Walt can't have a few weeks to evaluate the team and decide who are the keepers?

It's highly likely that within 2 weeks, Bob is going to have to eat another nice juicy contract to make room for Hopper to come off the DL.

This season is a lost one. Now, if there's a bunch of Wayne's dead wood still on the roster in 2009, then I will be upset.

Tony Cloninger
04-24-2008, 10:54 AM
It's a push...push...push business Krivsky! You push and you push.

Krivsky: Why don't you shut up, fat man!

See you in Willoughby, Wayne.


I think delegating is a good thing....trying to do everything yourself can lead to bad trades and extensions. Bowden...early on.....hired several ex-GM's and well respected baseball guys in 1992-95. It could have helped build up those teams.....or maybe the perception to me was that everything was covered. It also shows you are not insecure about your job.

I do not dislike Wayne but like many have said......he was the 2nd step after danO....who was better at small moves, for the most part, than the big ones.

I knew Walt had done something on OAK...and he did rebuild that system after Charlie O gutted it.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 10:55 AM
22 games into the season and it's a lost season. :dunno:

There are 162 games in a season. Not 22. This is hardly a lost season.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 10:55 AM
This is post 667, I think, and I'm reading the same things over and over (including most of what I'm about to say). But here goes.

I'll never forget the day that it was announced that Bob Castellini had taken over ownership of the Reds. We had been mired in mediocrity (or really bad baseball) for the Lindner years and most people were excited over having a "fan" as the owner. Well, the "fan" did a very fan-like thing. He got impatient seeing the same things fail and he made a move.

I wasn't a Krivsky fan, as you know, but I wished him no ill will. My take on this is that after the team went 9-12, including some embarrassing losses in Pittsburgh of all places, Krivsky, with Jocketty's help looked at the product. It didn't look good. I would guess that the first nail in Krivsky's coffin was The Trade. That had to be embarrassing to Castellini as well as all the eaten contracts and still the club kept on losing. Talk of the future means little when you are still losing and it's your money paying the bills.

So, we've gone from "what, me worry? just make money" to a fan who wants to win now. The winning part might have started next year, but I look at the roster and doubt it. We were 3-4 years away in my opinion and apparently in Castellini's. Two more years of sub .500 baseball is what scared him the most. Ever mindful of the fans' attitude and hearing the boos at GABP, it was time, in his mind to do something dramatic. Like a fan, he did.

Bob Castellini is not Satan nor is he a saint, but he wants to give the fans something to cheer about. It just wasn't happening despite all the money and some 40 moves. It became the same thing every night. He got tired of it. And since it's his money and his club, he made a move. Time will tell if it all works out.

Ltlabner
04-24-2008, 10:57 AM
Gosh, you'd think Krivsky was a saint or something after reading this board tonight. Nowhere in the history of baseball has a GM taken a team from the 80-82 mark to 91-103 mark and get so many laurels. The team was not getting better. It was getting worse.

Wayne isn't being made a saint of.

Some folks are objective enough to point out that he made some big mistakes, did some good things, and perhaps had more interference from BCast than we realized.

Unless, of corse, you consider anything positive being said about the man "making a saint of him". Would it help if we all questioned the marital status of his parents and posted pictures of him kicking his dog?

Face it. The folks who felt Wayne was doing a so-so to good job will think he got screwed. Those who feal Wayne is completley worthless will be dancing a jig. Fortunatley, for the most part, this thread has been a great objective analysis of the good, bad and ugly of one Wayne "CrimeDog" Krvisky. Frankly, it's very refreshing to read in these parts.

Fortunatley, over time, we'll be able to flesh out the real pro's and con's of Wayne. Some are obivous now. Others will only become obvious over time.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 10:58 AM
You don't want the owner making player moves, do you?

Patterson and Fogg are here because Wayne brought them in.

Patience is preached, but Walt can't have a few weeks to evaluate the team and decide who are the keepers?



Sorry for the double post. Farney did it.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 10:58 AM
You don't want the owner making player moves, do you?

Patterson and Fogg are here because Wayne brought them in.

Patience is preached, but Walt can't have a few weeks to evaluate the team and decide who are the keepers?



I already read Dusty as being quoted that he wanted Patterson here too, and I know that Castellini wanted Baker here.

So Castellini as owner is effecting player moves.

It was implied by reporters last year that he was involved in the Dunn deal, who or what else has Castellini's DNA on it?

Castellini had his advisor Jocketty before Fogg was signed, what happened? Jocketty and Castellini miss that incoming?

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:02 AM
And here is where we disagree.

Austin Kearns, at the time of the trade, had lost his starting job to Ryan Freel. The Reds wanted Freel's speed and his "table-setting" abilities in the lineup every day.


Which was another horrible decision, as Freel disappeared when given regular playing time. He was absolutely horrible after the trade. Kearns was no HOFer but he was much better than Freel. And then Wayne compounded the error by giving Freel that overpriced extension, when it was obvious Freel was fading fast.

redsmetz
04-24-2008, 11:04 AM
Castellini had his advisor Jocketty before Fogg was signed, what happened? Jocketty and Castellini miss that incoming?

Not to knock Baker, but I think too of his comment about being unaware that the Reds were signing Fogg. That might be all well and good, but they signed him to a minor league deal. If Dusty wasn't on board by the end of spring training, he should have been screaming bloody murder to not have him on the roster coming into the season. That was the time to cut him loose at little cost. I'm not buying that line. He had a chance for input.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:12 AM
I know Jocketty very well. Unlike Wayne, he has no skill with the minors. Finding and developing young arms? it's problematic. Like Wayne, he seems to have some people problems, and like Wayne is good at finding undervalued major league talent. however, his Cardinal teams underachieved their talent level for years-- just couldn't win the big one. for years, I started numerous threads on how Cards had the talent again, but would have to fall short because they still lacked heart. Then, Jocketty finally made the big heart acquisition: David Eckstein (a signing that I believe was trashed by all but one poster, moi, who said that at LAST the Cards would win a World Series under Jocketty). oh yes, I know Jocketty well..

Well, there's 8 teams in the playoffs now. I'm not going to say the playoffs are a crapshoot, but it's difficult. It's like criticizing an NCAA basketball coach that makes the final four, but fails to win the championship. It's hard to get to the Final Four.

Are the Braves a failure for making the playoffs all those years but only winning one World Series? (IIRC). I'll gladly take the Cardinals' run.

Jocketty is brilliant at adding the pieces that a contending team needs.

If the Reds make the playoffs, but fail to win the WS due to lack of "heart", I won't complain at all.





So I predict an increase in talent, a pretty good record for a small market, but underachievement and an eventual decay of the farm system that seemed to be getting things together.


You say "good record for a small market". Cleveland and St Louis used to be small markets too. Cleveland was more helpless than the Pirates for awhile.

Maybe, just maybe, Bob has a vision of talking us to the next level and he knows that building the farm system for the next 10 years isn't going to get us there.

The end goal is to make the playoffs, not to have the #1 farm system in baseball. If Walt has to trade some prospects, so be it.

People are predicting this doomsday scenerio... As one poster put it "We might win the World series, but then the team will crash for the next 3 years because the farm system is barren".. Who cares? The team has been in 'crashed' state for 7 years now. Time to try something different.

We've got an owner that wants to win and is willing to spend. That's awesome. Jocketty is a good GM. The future is brighter than it's been in a long, long time. Wayne was a pretty good small market GM (other than the bad contracts he gave out). But perhaps Cast doesn't want the Reds run as a small market?

M2
04-24-2008, 11:13 AM
Austin Kearns, at the time of the trade, had lost his starting job to Ryan Freel. The Reds wanted Freel's speed and his "table-setting" abilities in the lineup every day.

That's flat out wrong. Kearns had started 84 of the team's 89 games in 2006, including 11 straight games leading up to the trade. Freel was playing mostly at 3B at that juncture of the 2006 season.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 11:18 AM
Not to knock Baker, but I think too of his comment about being unaware that the Reds were signing Fogg. That might be all well and good, but they signed him to a minor league deal. If Dusty wasn't on board by the end of spring training, he should have been screaming bloody murder to not have him on the roster coming into the season. That was the time to cut him loose at little cost. I'm not buying that line. He had a chance for input.

Good points. Castellini, Jocketty overseeing, Krivsky overseeing Baker and staff as they evaluated the talent before coming north. Jocketty apparently did not do a very good job for Castellini or something was going on before they came north.

"unaware that the Reds were signing Fogg"
That's where I thought that there were possible struggles amongst FO/management and some politics going on.

Assuming that Baker did not know, then they did not let in on the loop regarding some players. Jocketty and Krivsky though both knew since it was their job and within their powers.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:21 AM
I hope that he is less tollerant of his own.

I am starting to get suspicous that Castellini may have been making several mistakes of his own along the way from personnel to contracts and dollars.

Can his judgement not be called into question?
Can we trust his judgement regarding personnel, contracts and money anymore? ?

What is Cast supposed to do when Wayne comes to him and says he wants to give Freel 2 years at 7 million?

Is Cast supposed to tell Wayne "no" and usurp his power, or should he trust his GM.

I think Cast did everything right. He gave Wayne more than a fair chance. Wayne hung himself with the rope he was given.

Wayne was the one with poor judgements on contracts. That's his job. If Cast could do that job, there'd be no need for a GM.

Despite the horrible 2007 season, Wayne might still have a job if he didn't give out roughly 25 million in bad contracts (Freel, Stanton, Castro, Ross, AGon, etc).. Not to mention Wayne may have left a few timebombs ticking for Walt as well (Weathers, Arroyo).

Wayne dug his own grave. I don't see why you are blaming Cast for Wayne's poor judgement on contracts. It seems like Cast was very liberal in spending and gave Wayne a lot of freedom. All Cast was looking for was improvement and progress towards a winning team. Instead, he got a bunch of contracts, a 72 win team last year, and a horrible 2008 team.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:24 AM
Yes exactly.

Why doesn't he come out and say what he means and mean what he says regarding the people that he hires or retains? I suspect that he is a part of the problem in Redsland.

The problem is that it would not be very nice for Cast to have a press conference and blast Wayne for all the real reasons he was fired.

Cast was pretty nice, essentially saying Wayne did a good job, but he was impatient. Very diplomatic. Deep down, Cast was probably fuming at the poor job done by Wayne. Likewise, Jocketty is not going to blast Wayne to the press either, that's why he gave a glowing review of Wayne when asked last year. He stressed the positives, and left out the negatives.

Tom Servo
04-24-2008, 11:29 AM
That's flat out wrong. Kearns had started 84 of the team's 89 games in 2006, including 11 straight games leading up to the trade. Freel was playing mostly at 3B at that juncture of the 2006 season.
Plus it was Denorfia who got the starts in right field immediately following Kearns departure, not Freel.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:29 AM
:confused: I did not realize that when O'Brien and Krivsky came that the Reds had any prospects worth trading? Denorfia and Hamilton were basically prospects, he traded them. But what prospects did he have to trade? Cueto, Bailey, Bray?

I also :confused: If the Reds have one of the best farm systems, they have prospects to trade.





When did the Reds have 3-4 solid starting pitchers? They lost seven straight years because they did not have good pitching starting or bullpen. This year it appears that they are improved, who did that?

That's one of the biggest defenses that the Wayne defenders give. He fixed the rotation. Harang, Cueto, and Volquez seem solid. Arroyo appeared to be solid before the season began.

I'm saying though that while Wayne focused a lot of effort on the rotation, he neglected the rest of the club. His comment in 2006 that he didn't really worry about who was going to play SS in 2007 was very telling. Wayne traded away a lot of offense and really didn't make much of an effort to replace it. He was happy with replacing Hamilton with Patterson, for instance.
He thought Freel was an everyday player. He thought AGon was the answer at SS. He thought Ross was the answer at C. Overall, despite the success of rolling the dice on Keppinger and Phillips, he hasn't done a good job on position players.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 11:32 AM
What is Cast supposed to do when Wayne comes to him and says he wants to give Freel 2 years at 7 million?

Is Cast supposed to tell Wayne "no" and usurp his power, or should he trust his GM.

I think Cast did everything right. He gave Wayne more than a fair chance. Wayne hung himself with the rope he was given.

Wayne was the one with poor judgements on contracts. That's his job. If Cast could do that job, there'd be no need for a GM.

Despite the horrible 2007 season, Wayne might still have a job if he didn't give out roughly 25 million in bad contracts (Freel, Stanton, Castro, Ross, AGon, etc).. Not to mention Wayne may have left a few timebombs ticking for Walt as well (Weathers, Arroyo).

Wayne dug his own grave. I don't see why you are blaming Cast for Wayne's poor judgement on contracts. It seems like Cast was very liberal in spending and gave Wayne a lot of freedom. All Cast was looking for was improvement and progress towards a winning team. Instead, he got a bunch of contracts, a 72 win team last year, and a horrible 2008 team.

Ownership and the accounting department determine before a season what the “budget” will be. Now the budget is the plan according to financial and accounting principals, standard business practices.

In that plan ownership and accounting lay out what they project to spend and will a lot in the various areas of the operation.

Castellini reviews all that before to see that operations is going according to his directives and his budget, his plan.

Castellini as a control factor will review large expenditures or contingent liabilities before they are enacted, this year Castellini also had Jocketty to help with the review of such transactions etc.

Castellini has to give an account of the resources and expenditures etc to the other investors. So Castellini was fully aware and had a hand in the decisions that Krivsky made with contracts and personnel. Castellini approved them.

Castellini hired Krivsky and bares responsibility for what Krivsky did or did not.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 11:33 AM
Wayne isn't being made a saint of.

Some folks are objective enough to point out that he made some big mistakes, did some good things, and perhaps had more interference from BCast than we realized.

Unless, of corse, you consider anything positive being said about the man "making a saint of him". Would it help if we all questioned the marital status of his parents and posted pictures of him kicking his dog?

Face it. The folks who felt Wayne was doing a so-so to good job will think he got screwed. Those who feal Wayne is completley worthless will be dancing a jig. Fortunatley, for the most part, this thread has been a great objective analysis of the good, bad and ugly of one Wayne "CrimeDog" Krvisky. Frankly, it's very refreshing to read in these parts.

Fortunatley, over time, we'll be able to flesh out the real pro's and con's of Wayne. Some are obivous now. Others will only become obvious over time.
Nope. I'll agree that this wasn't handled well. In fact, I'll even admit that Wayne got screwed. If he had been told that things just weren't working out in Spring Training, it's one thing, but apparently he had no clue.

It's very difficult to give a rookie GM the mandate to win now. Understanding all of that, I do find it refreshing that people have empathy for Krivsky, but I don't understand his canonization. Like most of us he had his faults. In the mind of the owner, the faults exceeded the great things he did, and like most bosses, he let him go. My only trouble with it was the way it was done.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:36 AM
I already read Dusty as being quoted that he wanted Patterson here too, and I know that Castellini wanted Baker here.

So Castellini as owner is effecting player moves.

It was implied by reporters last year that he was involved in the Dunn deal, who or what else has Castellini's DNA on it?

Castellini had his advisor Jocketty before Fogg was signed, what happened? Jocketty and Castellini miss that incoming?


The GM is ultimately responsible for the players on the 25 man roster.
Dusty can't force him to get any players. Sure, Dusty has influence, but in the end Wayne could've made a different move, kept Hamilton, called up Bruce, signed Lofton, or made another trade for CF.. Not saying all those options were better than what Wayne did.. just pointing out that it was Wayne's choice , 100%. Cast never meddled in his trades like Allen used to.
Cast never complained when Wayne came to him and asked for money.

Blaming Jocketty and Cast for Fogg is just downright absurd. It seems you want to deflect all the bad moves on to Cast and Jocketty while giving Wayne the credit for the good moves. How come I don't see any posts praising Cast and Jocketty for Volquez and Cordero?

In mind mind, Wayne has ultimate responsiblity for all the good and bad moves. Sadly, he made more bad moves than good ones. That's why he was fired.

Always Red
04-24-2008, 11:36 AM
Awesome. Castellini hired a GM who is going to half ass it.

I don't really think so...do you?

Jocketty has been a very successful GM in the past, of course. A general manager is supposed to MANAGE. Just maybe, given Wayne's penchant for secrecy, he had a problem with micromanaging everything? Not trusting other folks judgment? (Almarez and the host of others whom have left come to mind here.)

Just maybe that statement given by Jocketty was "code" for those currently working for this organization that they were going to have free rein to do their job now? :dunno:

IDK, that's just my take on what that statement might mean.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:40 AM
Not to knock Baker, but I think too of his comment about being unaware that the Reds were signing Fogg. That might be all well and good, but they signed him to a minor league deal. If Dusty wasn't on board by the end of spring training, he should have been screaming bloody murder to not have him on the roster coming into the season. That was the time to cut him loose at little cost. I'm not buying that line. He had a chance for input.


Dusty had to lobby pretty hard for Stanton to get cut.
I suspect Dusty lobbied for Castro to be cut as well and be replaced with Harrison.
Remember, one of Wayne's faults is that he didn't listen to people.

Now talking about Fogg specifically.. Dusty's options for the fifth starter were: Fogg, Belisle and Affedlt. We can assume that Homer was not an option on opening day. So it's reasonable to give Fogg a chance. Dusty did pull the plug after 3 starts. Dusty probably also knew that Belisle wasn't likely to be much better.. Dusty probably knew the 5th starter was going to be a mess.. Remember how Dusty skipped Fogg's 2nd turn in the rotation? Dusty is doing all he can, but unfortuantely there are times when you need a #5 starter and he has to run out someone that is bad.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:42 AM
That's flat out wrong. Kearns had started 84 of the team's 89 games in 2006, including 11 straight games leading up to the trade. Freel was playing mostly at 3B at that juncture of the 2006 season.

Yep, the "need to get Freel in the lineup" was just Wayne trying to put a smoke screen up about blowing a hole in the OF.

When Freel failed, didn't Wayne start lauding a marginal minor league OF as well.. Maybe it was Deno. I remember Wayne proudly announcing "It's Denfornia's time" (or whoever it was).

Edited to correct name of marginal player.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 11:44 AM
I'm saying though that while Wayne focused a lot of effort on the rotation, he neglected the rest of the club. His comment in 2006 that he didn't really worry about who was going to play SS in 2007 was very telling. Wayne traded away a lot of offense and really didn't make much of an effort to replace it. He was happy with replacing Hamilton with Patterson, for instance.
He thought Freel was an everyday player. He thought AGon was the answer at SS. He thought Ross was the answer at C. Overall, despite the success of rolling the dice on Keppinger and Phillips, he hasn't done a good job on position players.

Yes he did focus on pitching and attempted to build that up, and I think we undersand the why's of that.

The second part, it does appear that he neglected or was weak on the rest of the club, upgrading starting position players and the bench.

I don't understand how one such as Krivsky with his outstanding scouting skills or background could have been so blind unless there were external forces influencing his choices. Surely Wayne knows that Hopper, Freel, Valetin, Ross, Belisle, Hattebreg and some others are not the cream of the crop in major league baseball and that his personnel needed upgraded.

RedlegJake
04-24-2008, 11:46 AM
I just think WK and Cast were on different timetables. WK was trying to build through the farm, a slow but steady approach. He made moves under pressure to win now, and those were his worst deals all in all. WK mis-read his boss's directive. Had he read it right it is likely Bruce and Bailey and perhaps Votto & Cueto wouldn't be here right now.

Or maybe he read him right but felt he could still win now without giving up those crown jewels of the farm. Whether WK should get credit for the players in the farm system he sure changed the culture on development, dumping the "pitch to contact", the revolving starter-reliever junk, take a pitch first edicts, etc. His best deals were for young cast-offs like BP, Kepp and Hamilton turned into Volquez. Deals that spoke to the future as much or more than now. I posted before that the real aim of WK seemed to be much more 2009 or 2010 than 2008. Looks like Cast thought so, too and was VERY unhappy about it.

The Reds really need Jocketty to stick around for 5 or 6 years minimum and stabilize this whole organization. Is Jocketty really committed to this or is he just doing Bob a favor that he wants out of as soon as he can gracefully do so? THAT is a huge question in my mind. I'm not sold that Walt has his heart in it.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:48 AM
Ownership and the accounting department determine before a season what the “budget” will be. Now the budget is the plan according to financial and accounting principals, standard business practices.

In that plan ownership and accounting lay out what they project to spend and will a lot in the various areas of the operation.

Castellini reviews all that before to see that operations is going according to his directives and his budget, his plan.

Castellini as a control factor will review large expenditures or contingent liabilities before they are enacted, this year Castellini also had Jocketty to help with the review of such transactions etc.

Castellini has to give an account of the resources and expenditures etc to the other investors. So Castellini was fully aware and had a hand in the decisions that Krivsky made with contracts and personnel. Castellini approved them.

Castellini hired Krivsky and bares responsibility for what Krivsky did or did not.


I don't think the budget is so cut and dry for a ML team.
As an example, Bowden made a case to Lindner that Greg Vaughn would sell tickets, and the payroll was bumped up. Likewise for Jr.

Wayne probably went to Cast and gave him a presentation about how critical Freel was to the future of this team, and why extending him was such a good idea. Cast trusted Wayne and approved it.

Now I do agree with your point that ultimiately Cast is responsble for all the Reds' employees. That's why it's well within his rights to use whatever criteria he wants for a GM and fire Wayne.

But at the micro level, Wayne deserves the praise and blame for all his player moves. Cast wasn't the one that approached Stanton. It was Wayne.
Cast shouldn't be the guy to decide if it's better to invest in Stanton or Reliever XYZ. That's Wayne's job.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:50 AM
Nope. I'll agree that this wasn't handled well. In fact, I'll even admit that Wayne got screwed. If he had been told that things just weren't working out in Spring Training, it's one thing, but apparently he had no clue. .

Wayne knew he was on thin ice. He had to know.
He was even proud of himself for ignoring Cast's orders to put a winning team on the field, and sacrificing his job to maintain the crown jewels. He deluded himself.

Wayne was probably caught by surprise that it happened yesterday as opposed to the end of the year, but he had to know the ax was coming.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 11:55 AM
The second part, it does appear that he neglected or was weak on the rest of the club, upgrading starting position players and the bench.

I don't understand how one such as Krivsky with his outstanding scouting skills or background could have been so blind unless there were external forces influencing his choices. Surely Wayne knows that Hopper, Freel, Valetin, Ross, Belisle, Hattebreg and some others are not the cream of the crop in major league baseball and that his personnel needed upgraded.

I don't see how Freel, Castro, Valentine, Ross, AGon, Patterson, Hopper, etc
could be considered upgrades by anyone. They are marginal ML players at best. Wayne obviously didn't realize that, because he gave them all big contracts and extensions (other than Hopper).

Likewise, he obviously had no clue on how bad some of the relievers he acquired actually were. Otherwise, he would've never picked them up in the first place.

Wayne liked to bring in a bunch of players, throw them against the wall and see if they stuck. He hit on a few, but he made a lot of very expensive gambles that did not work out. On the macro level, the cost savings he got from stealling Phillips was more than counteracted by signing Stanton.

OldXOhio
04-24-2008, 12:00 PM
10/3/07 - the day of infamy for Wayne. Walt admitted he and Cast have talked for some time about working together again in Cincinnati. Once STL let Walt go, it was just a matter of time. All the excuses in the world can be used to justify this firing - in the end, BC simply wanted Jocketty in the GM seat.

nate
04-24-2008, 12:01 PM
I don't get all the cries for St Wayne either.

I have yet to see _one_ cry for "St. Wayne." Just because people don't share your point of view for him doesn't mean they're out ordering stained glass windows of him to be installed in their "man (and woman)-caves."


But I guess some people love a GM that never trades prospects, because hope springs eternal. Just like there was so much hope for Belisle over the off season.

Again, there's not "love" as much as there is a chasm of opinion between those who think Krivsky was "average but deserved a chance _AT LEAST_ to the end of his contract" and your position of...well, whatever it is.


Walt has a lot of work to do. Our talent is thinner at the ML level than when Wayne arrived, despite all this young talent that DanO drafted and Wayne "didn't screw up".

Phillips, Keppinger, Volquez, Cueto, Votto and I couldn't disagree more.


As Dusty said, we have 13 pending FAs, so the club was about to enter a big transition regardless of Wayne's planning.
Walt has some bad contracts that Wayne saddled him with.

And Wayne had some that Dan-O saddled him with. And Dan-O had some that Jimbo saddled him with.


There's more to building a winning club than having 3 pr 4 solid starting pitchers. Wayne never learned that.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say there was more than "get 3 or 4 solid starters" on his whiteboard.

Gainesville Red
04-24-2008, 12:05 PM
I sort of get the feeling that if BCast was simply a fan I'd be voting against him on ORG status.

When Dunn strikes out on his fourth trip to the plate after hitting a double, walking and homering earlier, he'd be the guy in chat that says he sucks because he K's too much.

He may even talk about meaningless homeruns.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 12:09 PM
I don't think the budget is so cut and dry for a ML team.
As an example, Bowden made a case to Lindner that Greg Vaughn would sell tickets, and the payroll was bumped up. Likewise for Jr.

Wayne probably went to Cast and gave him a presentation about how critical Freel was to the future of this team, and why extending him was such a good idea. Cast trusted Wayne and approved it.

Now I do agree with your point that ultimiately Cast is responsble for all the Reds' employees. That's why it's well within his rights to use whatever criteria he wants for a GM and fire Wayne.

But at the micro level, Wayne deserves the praise and blame for all his player moves. Cast wasn't the one that approached Stanton. It was Wayne.
Cast shouldn't be the guy to decide if it's better to invest in Stanton or Reliever XYZ. That's Wayne's job.


I don't think the budget is so cut and dry for a ML team.

Yes there are allowances and flexibility to the budget ie plan. True


As an example, Bowden made a case to Lindner that Greg Vaughn would sell tickets, and the payroll was bumped up. Likewise for Jr

Yes, an objective presentation showing the cost benefit analysis and then those with the power of the purse make the choice and final decision, ultimately becoming responsible for those choices and decisions good or bad.


Wayne probably went to Cast and gave him a presentation about how critical Freel was to the future of this team, and why extending him was such a good idea. Cast trusted Wayne and approved it.

Sounds consistent and right. Plus Castellini might have liked the good press and pr that Freel was generating at the time and saw a ticket sale increase with Freel on board.


Now I do agree with your point that ultimiately Cast is responsble for all the Reds' employees. That's why it's well within his rights to use whatever criteria he wants for a GM and fire Wayne.

True, thus Castellini should be given equal weight for hiring Krivsky and firing him. Since you believe and many others do that Krivsky was a bad choice and poor hire, then Castellini owns that along with firing him to correct his previous errors in judgment.


But at the micro level, Wayne deserves the praise and blame for all his player moves. Cast wasn't the one that approached Stanton. It was Wayne.
Cast shouldn't be the guy to decide if it's better to invest in Stanton or Reliever XYZ. That's Wayne's job.

I don’t know that for sure one way or the other. “all the praise or blame” I am not comfortable with that. Stanton and the ones before Jocketty came into to review transactions and other for Castellini I could see blaming those choices and decisions on Krivsky and Castellini.


Castellini has described himself as somewhat of zealous fan of the Reds and an impatient owner, maybe he has more input on the past than we realize.

nate
04-24-2008, 12:11 PM
It's very difficult to give a rookie GM the mandate to win now.

I would say that it would be very difficult to make the 2006 Reds organization "win now." Not impossible, but it would take an extraordinary GM, regardless of their experience to do so.


Understanding all of that, I do find it refreshing that people have empathy for Krivsky, but I don't understand his canonization.

That's because the canonization isn't occurring. There are a few people who mainly have negative opinions, a majority of folks who are net-neutral and a few who mainly have positive opinions (like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus). The distance between the "negs" and the "neuts" is so vast that from the vantage point of the "negs" it looks like the "neuts" are gathered around listening to the Pope and waiting for St. Wayne's tapestry to be unfurled.

In reality, we're drinking beer.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 12:16 PM
Much of the losing in April, though, has centered on the team's inability to produce timely run-producing hits. Not all of that, Baker said, should be blamed on Krivsky, particularly slumps such as Corey Patterson's recent 0-for-22 streak at the plate.

"I was one of the guys who wanted Patterson, too," Baker said. "You can blame me if you want. You've got to remember, Patterson won two or three games by himself. Patterson was not a bad acquisition. He's having a bad streak."

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080424/SPT04/804240388/

pedro
04-24-2008, 12:19 PM
Our talent is thinner at the ML level than when Wayne arrived

Seriously, Redread, that's beyond comical.

RedEye
04-24-2008, 12:19 PM
BP is as good as Utley.

Maybe defensively... but Brandon doesn't hold a candle to Chase as a hitter.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 12:21 PM
I would say that it would be very difficult to make the 2006 Reds organization "win now." Not impossible, but it would take an extraordinary GM, regardless of their experience to do so.



That's because the canonization isn't occurring. There are a few people who mainly have negative opinions, a majority of folks who are net-neutral and a few who mainly have positive opinions (like the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus). The distance between the "negs" and the "neuts" is so vast that from the vantage point of the "negs" it looks like the "neuts" are gathered around listening to the Pope and waiting for St. Wayne's tapestry to be unfurled.

In reality, we're drinking beer.
I like that! :)

In reality, this move probably means nothing as far as wins and losses on the field presently. We're busy putting good guy and bad guy labels on people (Krivsky good and Castellini bad or visa-versa) while the season goes on. Just a bar conversation and the beer sounds good. It is after noon, you know!

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 12:23 PM
Seriously, Redread, that's beyond comical.

It's one of the most absurd things I've ready on here in a long, long time. Maybe ever. Nice rant though.

RedEye
04-24-2008, 12:24 PM
10/3/07 - the day of infamy for Wayne. Walt admitted he and Cast have talked for some time about working together again in Cincinnati. Once STL let Walt go, it was just a matter of time. All the excuses in the world can be used to justify this firing - in the end, BC simply wanted Jocketty in the GM seat.

I think this is really the bottom line, too.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 12:27 PM
I don't see how Freel, Castro, Valentine, Ross, AGon, Patterson, Hopper, etc
could be considered upgrades by anyone. They are marginal ML players at best. Wayne obviously didn't realize that, because he gave them all big contracts and extensions (other than Hopper).

I don't see it either.

Maybe Castellini was a big fan of those players?

You are speaking to the part of Krivsky that I did not like, his bringing in players that we don't think have value to other teams, suggesting that they would not want them, so I question why the Reds wanted them and we can see in various situations on the playing field where we wish they had better.


Likewise, he obviously had no clue on how bad some of the relievers he acquired actually were. Otherwise, he would've never picked them up in the first place.

Truly, something was amiss there. Until this year, the pitching looks better. Perhaps Krivsky did not have enough time in his first year to make the pitching what it should be.


On the macro level, the cost savings he got from stealling Phillips was more than counteracted by signing Stanton.

I see what you are trying to point out. I would have to see some sort of cost/benefit analysis, and the asset/liability on those moves to make an objective determination, I believe that they can be measured.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 12:34 PM
Our talent is thinner at the ML level than when Wayne arrived

Think about that for a minute and tell me, do you honestly believe that? Do you seriously believe the talent is thinner than before Wayne Krivsky arrived?

M2
04-24-2008, 12:35 PM
Our talent is thinner at the ML level than when Wayne arrived.

No, and it's not even close. The roster Krivsky inherited was a bucket of puke.

westofyou
04-24-2008, 12:36 PM
No, and it's not even close. The roster Krivsky inherited was a bucket of puke.

Mixed with blood and lung.... it was a bucket of death.

edabbs44
04-24-2008, 12:39 PM
Seriously, Redread, that's beyond comical.

I agree with you. But I do think that the production is right in line with the other teams.

So how can that be explained? That's one mystery I can't figure out. If you take his acquisitions on player specific level (adding Hamilton/Volquez, Phillips, Arroyo) to the emerging base of Harang/EdE/Cueto and Griffey's health, the team should have improved in the W/L column. Why is the team still bad?

Lineup construction? :)
Bullpen woes?

I don't get it.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 12:39 PM
in the end, BC simply wanted Jocketty in the GM seat.


I think that is true.

I think that Castellini should have talked to Krivsky and then just exercised his prerogative to hire Jocketty for the "GM seat".

Perhaps if he had more "people skills" he could have salvaged the relationship with Krivsky so that Krivsky could have been an asset to the Reds in other capacities, and Castellini would not have had to eat another contract of his making. There could have been a much smoother and cleaner transition it seems to me.

nate
04-24-2008, 12:41 PM
Mixed with blood and lung.... it was a bucket of death.

Now I'm hungry for JTM!

Caveat Emperor
04-24-2008, 12:42 PM
There's more to building a winning club than having 3 pr 4 solid starting pitchers. Wayne never learned that.

You're right.

But that's like 90% of the battle, and it's 90% of the battle that the Reds have been losing for 20 years.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 12:43 PM
Mixed with blood and lung.... it was a bucket of death.


You're right.
Krivsky had a greater chance of failing with that, than he did succeeding, thus death of the GM career in waiting. I will give him credit for having the courage for taking the position, but he was up against big time going in.

M2
04-24-2008, 12:58 PM
So how can that be explained? That's one mystery I can't figure out. If you take his acquisitions on player specific level (adding Hamilton/Volquez, Phillips, Arroyo) to the emerging base of Harang/EdE/Cueto and Griffey's health, the team should have improved in the W/L column. Why is the team still bad?

Because it takes time for all the ingredients to come together to form a meal. It can take years to translate talent into a quality W/L record. Krivsky inherited a roster with profound present and future problems. Just because the club now has some paths to success doesn't mean it will instantly find one of those paths. Critical and hard decisions still need to be made about how to make THIS collection of talent into a winner.

redsmetz
04-24-2008, 01:01 PM
Wayne knew he was on thin ice. He had to know.
He was even proud of himself for ignoring Cast's orders to put a winning team on the field, and sacrificing his job to maintain the crown jewels. He deluded himself.

Wayne was probably caught by surprise that it happened yesterday as opposed to the end of the year, but he had to know the ax was coming.

Redread, you've finally convinced. There was nothing worthwhile about Wayne Krivsky and I can't imagine why I've ever thought otherwise. And there's nothing wrong with Bob Castellini or Walt Jockety and happy days are here again.

Does that satisfy you?

I best add an addendum to this tongue in cheek response. WK was not without flaws and the team's current lack of depth has made that evident. Folks are right that we have numerous redundancies throughout this roster that have boded ill for the current season.

My reaction above is to you giving no quarter that Krivsky had an positive points. A few have noted some of it is comical, but it's just plain tiresome.

Again, Jockety (is it one "t" or two?) may well get the job done, but I for one have been looking forward to this plethora of young pitching coming up that was going to give us, potentially, probably the best young staff that we've had since the earliest days of what became The Big Red Machine. Yes, some of your depth in the minors should be leveraged into to better the ML club, but it was looking really exciting to see us develop or acquire some young talent that we have from the get go. That's Wayne's doing, your protestations notwithstanding.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 01:09 PM
Redread, you've finally convinced. There was nothing worthwhile about Wayne Krivsky and I can't imagine why I've ever thought otherwise. And there's nothing wrong with Bob Castellini or Walt Jockety and happy days are here again.

Does that satisfy you?

:lol: Almost. You forgot to mention what a criminal Allen and Lindner were.

Actually, I think Wayne did some good. He did more harm than good though, and he'd never take us to the next level.

OldXOhio
04-24-2008, 01:12 PM
I think that is true.

I think that Castellini should have talked to Krivsky and then just exercised his prerogative to hire Jocketty for the "GM seat".

Perhaps if he had more "people skills" he could have salvaged the relationship with Krivsky so that Krivsky could have been an asset to the Reds in other capacities, and Castellini would not have had to eat another contract of his making. There could have been a much smoother and cleaner transition it seems to me.


Yeah, despite my enthusiasm over the notion that Walt Jocketty is now our GM, I do feel bad for Wayne over how this went down. And you're right, perhaps WK could have been retained in some other capacity. Those "demotions" usually don't last for very long, but at least some semblance of an amicable split could have been achieved as opposed to simply ushering him out the door as a failure.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-24-2008, 01:15 PM
I feel bad for how it went down with Mackanin.

Karma.

pedro
04-24-2008, 01:20 PM
:lol: Almost. You forgot to mention what a criminal Allen and Lindner were.

Actually, I think Wayne did some good. He did more harm than good though, and he'd never take us to the next level.

How you can even pretend Wayne left the reds worse off than he found them is mind boggling.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 01:20 PM
True, thus Castellini should be given equal weight for hiring Krivsky and firing him. Since you believe and many others do that Krivsky was a bad choice and poor hire, then Castellini owns that along with firing him to correct his previous errors in judgment.



And I agree here. Cast deserves some blame for hiring a GM that wasn't on board with his plan. I know Cast was in a hurry to get rid of DanO and move on, but that is not an excuse for not hiring the right GM.

pedro
04-24-2008, 01:39 PM
I heard Jason Stark on the radio last night and he said that the consensus reaction around MLB was that people were "appalled" by this move.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-24-2008, 01:41 PM
I heard Jason Stark on the radio last night and he said that the consensus reaction around MLB was that people were "appalled" by this move.


And most of those same people critcized the hiring of WK and every move he ever made.

RFS62
04-24-2008, 01:42 PM
10/3/07 - the day of infamy for Wayne. Walt admitted he and Cast have talked for some time about working together again in Cincinnati. Once STL let Walt go, it was just a matter of time. All the excuses in the world can be used to justify this firing - in the end, BC simply wanted Jocketty in the GM seat.



I think this is exactly right. I don't think Jocketty was duplicitous in his statements of not coming here looking for the job. I do think, however, that Castbrenner decided immediately once Jocketty was let go by the Cardinals that he would get his man.

IslandRed
04-24-2008, 01:44 PM
So how can that be explained? That's one mystery I can't figure out. If you take his acquisitions on player specific level (adding Hamilton/Volquez, Phillips, Arroyo) to the emerging base of Harang/EdE/Cueto and Griffey's health, the team should have improved in the W/L column. Why is the team still bad?

Lineup construction? :)
Bullpen woes?

I don't get it.

I'm going off memory and baseball-reference.com, so bear with me. It might shed a little light or it might not.

The team Krivsky inherited was coming off a 73-89 season in 2005. Its Pythagorean record was 75-87, with 820 runs scored and 889 runs allowed. 889 runs, by the way, was last in the National League and last in Reds' history, no real hope for improvement was evident, and by all accounts, the best hope for help on the farm was Homer Bailey, still in A-ball at the time. At least that was an improvement over 2004, when the Pythag won-lost was 67-95.

820 runs is pretty solid, though. But look closer and you'll see some career years and better-than-expected performances, even after adjusting for the home park. A rational person wouldn't have expected that level of production to sustain itself over the next year (much less until now) with the same cast of characters, and it didn't. Then figure in that Sean Casey had already been traded away by the time Krivsky got there, for a guy that ended up not helping the pitching staff at all. Second base was about to be turned over to Tony Womack.

So we had a 75-win (by the Pythag) team in 2005 that most objective people would have predicted to be worse in 2006 based on its status on the day Krivsky was hired.

But it wasn't worse. In 2006, the Reds went 80-82 and stuck in the race for awhile, although it was a 76-win Pythag team. Despite the save-blowing bullpen, the pitching staff cut nearly 90 runs off, offsetting what should have been a predictable decline on offense. It could have been a better than 76-win Pythag team if not for The Trade, and that chaps some people to this day. Others thought the team was going to be -- to borrow M2's phrase -- puke, and the fact that they were close at all was only due to the positive impact of Krivsky's early moves. I guess we all have to do our own accounting based on how good we think the team would have been without all the stuff, good or bad, Krivsky did in 2006.

On to 2007: The actual W-L got worse, the Pythag stayed about the same at 75 wins. The offense got better, the run prevention backslid a little bit. It's safe to say things were a little stagnant despite the Josh Hamilton success story, so that's a fair criticism.

Going into 2008, most people were predicting the pitching to improve with the offense against regressing somewhat; the actual degree of improvement to be predicated on how well the young pitchers did. PECOTA had the Reds at 80-82, which would be an improvement from last year and a significant improvement over the status quo Krivsky inherited. But improved enough for Castellini's taste? Apparently not.

I think the evidence supports the notion that Krivsky made the team better while he was here, perhaps significantly so. There are also plenty of arguments to be made that, now that the big club is in a better state and the farm system is too, Jocketty will do a better job with it from here on than Krivsky would've. Personally, I hope so; while I feel bad for Krivsky, the thing that would make it worse would be doing all this for nothing.

pedro
04-24-2008, 01:46 PM
And most of those same people critcized the hiring of WK and every move he ever made.

I got the impression he was talking about people who worked throughout MLB, not the media.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-24-2008, 01:54 PM
I got the impression he was talking about people who worked throughout MLB, not the media.

Yeah, I got that too, but it seemed whenever WK did anything we'd hear what the "baseball people" thought of it through certain people in the media. Maybe it's their way of hiding behind bogus sources to make their point, but it always seemed that everyone from media to "baseball people" behind the scenes have constantly railed on anything this franchise has done, including hiring WK and most of his moves.

It just seems convenient that the "baseball people" think this move is bad too.

I just think the franchise is an easy target.

pedro
04-24-2008, 01:55 PM
Yeah, I got that too, but it seemed whenever WK did anything we'd hear what the "baseball people" thought of it through certain people in the media. Maybe it's their way of hiding behind bogus sources to make their point, but it always seemed that everyone from media to "baseball people" behind the scenes have constantly railed on anything this franchise has done, including hiring WK and most of his moves.

It just seems convenient that the "baseball people" think this move is bad too.

I just think the franchise is an easy target.

hard to argue with that.

M2
04-24-2008, 02:01 PM
Outside of The Trade what moves that Krivsky made got generally panned by "baseball people"?

He only made three high profile trades and two of them (for Arroyo and Volquez) caused no national hue and cry. He signed Cordero, which drew fire from the stats folks, but the "baseball people" were mostly complimentary of the move. So he got slammed for one dog of a trade, that's hardly makes the Reds baseball's whipping boy.

Reds Nd2
04-24-2008, 02:02 PM
I heard Jason Stark on the radio last night and he said that the consensus reaction around MLB was that people were "appalled" by this move.

From Baseball America issue 0718 - Aug.27 - Sept. 9.


"There's alot of pressure on guys like (Reds GM) Wayne Krivsky and (Pirates GM) Dave Littlefield from their owners not to make what will be perceived by the media and talk shows as a bad deal. The Reds were supposed to be remade into the model of the Twins, but 16 months into a five year rebuilding plan, the owner wants immediate results. It's unfair, but it really puts some general managers in boxes." - Anonymous GM

BuckeyeRedleg
04-24-2008, 02:04 PM
Outside of The Trade what moves that Krivsky made got generally panned by "baseball people"?

He only made three high profile trades and two of them (for Arroyo and Volquez) caused no national hue and cry. He signed Cordero, which drew fire from the stats folks, but the "baseball people" were mostly complimentary of the move. So he got slammed for one dog of a trade, that's hardly makes the Reds baseball's whipping boy.

Off the top of my head, wasn't the Cordero signing criticized?

IslandRed
04-24-2008, 02:09 PM
Off the top of my head, wasn't the Cordero signing criticized?

A few people griped that the Reds overpaid, but it was hardly a national outcry.

M2
04-24-2008, 02:10 PM
Off the top of my head, wasn't the Cordero signing criticized?

Yeah, by the numbers crowd because it violated their inflexible budget management rules. Outside of that small circle, the move was mostly greeted with surprise (that the Reds spent some coin) and compliments (Cordero's a quality closer and the Reds really needed one of those).

BuckeyeRedleg
04-24-2008, 02:10 PM
I think Lohse for Zach Ward was criticized too.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-24-2008, 02:15 PM
It just seemed like whenever you read anything about Krvisky it was not positive. Not as much specific moves, but moreso the general direction of the organization.

Maybe he irritated the media with his secrecy. We know if the media wants to knock you they will and using "baseball people I have talked too" is an easy way to get that point across, without having to expose those sources.

jojo
04-24-2008, 02:17 PM
Yeah, by the numbers crowd because it violated their inflexible budget management rules. Outside of that small circle, the move was mostly greeted with surprise (that the Reds spent some coin) and compliments (Cordero's a quality closer and the Reds really needed one of those).

I guess that's a view through one kind of filter............

M2
04-24-2008, 02:23 PM
I think Lohse for Zach Ward was criticized too.

In the general media? Hardly. It barely drew any notice. Most people didn't even know who Zach Ward was, including "baseball people."

It was an anonymous prospect for a pitcher who carried low expectations on his shoulders. As best as I can remember the national reaction to the deal, it was "Well, that happened."

Benihana
04-24-2008, 02:25 PM
In the general media? Hardly. It barely drew any notice. Most people didn't even know who Zach Ward was, including "baseball people."

It was an anonymous prospect for a pitcher who carried low expectations on his shoulders. As best as I can remember the national reaction to the deal, it was "Well, that happened."

I believe that trade was blasted on this board when it went down.

IslandRed
04-24-2008, 02:39 PM
It just seemed like whenever you read anything about Krvisky it was not positive. Not as much specific moves, but moreso the general direction of the organization.

I don't think he was anyone's favorite person, in the media or in the baseball community; but there's just a reflexive negative reaction to a GM being fired after barely two years when the general perception is that he signed onto a rebuilding job.

paulrichjr
04-24-2008, 02:43 PM
I honestly believe that one of the comments that was made in the press yesterday had a lot more to do with this than most realize. I can't remember where I read it but someone stated that Krivs and Jocketty were not getting along real well. I can imagine Jocketty stating..."I am going to have to move on in the best interest of the team..." and Cast stopping him by putting him in power. Jocketty might have been surprised Tuesday with the phone call but I would bet the surprise was only that it was done so quickly. I would bet my 401K that he and Cast have had some interesting conversations about Krivs mistakes.

I also wouldn't be surprised if all of these contracts being eaten had something to do with it. Yesterday I speculated that and mentioned that Krivs probably came to Bob and stated that another one needed to be eaten...Valentin would be my bet.

M2
04-24-2008, 02:43 PM
I guess that's a view through one kind of filter............

What? Stats commentators suddenly outnumber the seamheads employed, or formerly employed, in the game and the traditional media (TV, radio, newspapers, magazines)?

Don't get me wrong, the Internet is a fabulous medium. It allows tails to wag dogs, and that can be a good thing. Yet, as someone who makes his cash in online media, I can tell you objects on the Internet often appear larger than they really are.

Comparatively speaking, the numbers crowd is a small circle in the game of baseball. It's a vocal crowd and one that should be listened to as it's often making a lot of sense, but let's not conflate what goes on in that echo chamber with the general opinion of people throughout the game.

As for the inflexible budget management rules, yeah, it's the worst thing that's come out of "Moneyball" (mind you, unintentionally so of the part of the author and the A's front office that was the subject of the book). Now you've got people dedicated to truisms rather than looking at a given situation and trying to identify opportunities. The Reds still have a middle of the road budget (18th overall), up only $5.2M from last season. The Reds had the space and availability to sign a closer like Cordero. Whether Cordero was worth the contract is a separate (and legitimate) question, but there was no budgetary impediment preventing the Reds from making that deal. In fact, spending on the closer and getting a starter making near the minimum via trade (Volquez) so far has turned out to be an astute deployment of resources.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 02:45 PM
Seriously, Redread, that's beyond comical.

The win-loss record seems to agree with me that Wayne hasn't increased the overall ML talent base. In the end, isn't the goal to win games?

DanO had more wins in each of his two seasons than Wayne did last year.

Notice, I said ML talent. I didn't say potential, because potential is nebulous to measure.

Again, while Wayne had some good pickups, he shot himself in the foot with many bad ones, and the W-L showed that. He also did a generally poor job with his payflex money.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 02:46 PM
It's one of the most absurd things I've ready on here in a long, long time. Maybe ever. Nice rant though.

Wayne turned a team that was a marginal contender (2006) into a 72 win team last year. How did the team lose wins if the talent level was increasing?

jojo
04-24-2008, 02:51 PM
but there was no budgetary impediment preventing the Reds from making that deal.

That's not only a flawed standard to apply when critiquing payroll decisions, it really doesn't speak to the argument against the signing made by the "numbers" guys.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 02:53 PM
No, and it's not even close. The roster Krivsky inherited was a bucket of puke.

And it's not a whole lot better now. He was handed a solid everyday lineup.
He was handed Harang. He was handed Cueto, EdE, Homer, and Votto. Now granted, the bullpen he inherited needed work.

When he left, he had added Keppinger, Phillips, Arroyo.. clear wins.

Volquez at this point looks like a push.. note I am not saying it is bad, just too early to call it a clear "win".

Many of his early wins like Ross that built up his reputation were Fool's gold. In fact, Arroyo might end up being Fool's gold as well.

Again, he got 80 wins in 2006, and then only 72 wins in 2007.
This team as of now is poorly constructed.
As Dusty said, there's 13 pending free agents to deal with, as well as some bad contracts.

IMO, he left the team in slightly worse condition than he recieved it in. Hopefully his two draft classes will produce something (too early to tell).
In any event, he left a mess for Walt. It's a different mess -- Walt is going to have to rebuild the position player talent, and Wayne had to rebulid the pitching staff. In summary, Wayne just shifted where the talent was, he didn't really add to the total talent. He added some good players, but that was outweighed by the bad contracts he so freely gave out.