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KittyDuran
04-23-2008, 11:07 AM
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080423/SPT04/304230046

Krivsky fired
BY PAUL DAUGHERTY | PDAUGHERTY@ENQURIER.COM

Reds general manager Wayne Krivsky his been fired less that three years after taking over the position several sources have confirmed to the Enquirer's Paul Daugherty.

Krivsky is still in a three-year contract that runs through the 2008 season.

Krivsky was hired on Feb. 9, 2006, replacing Dan O’Brien as the Reds general manager. He was the first general manager to be hired under the Reds ownership group led by Bob Castellini.

Krivsky previously had served as an assistant general manager with the Minnesota Twins, and almost named Reds general manager in 2003, when O’Brien got the nod instead.

The move comes 21 days into the 2008 season. The Reds are currently 9-12, and 5 ½ games out of first place in the National League Central.

membengal
04-23-2008, 11:09 AM
I'm stunned.

Joseph
04-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Wow!

SMcGavin
04-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Um, wow.

BRM
04-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Wow. This is unexpected.

HotCorner
04-23-2008, 11:09 AM
Wow.

Joseph
04-23-2008, 11:10 AM
Happy birthday to me?

BRM
04-23-2008, 11:10 AM
From Doc's blog.



Three highly placed Reds sources have confirmed that the club has fired GM Wayne Krivsky. Walt Jocketty, current special assistant to owner Bob Castellini and former GM for the St. Louis Cardinals, will be announced as Krivsky's replacement at a news conference later today.

Patrick Bateman
04-23-2008, 11:10 AM
Wow shocking. I totally thought there was no chance of this coming so early. Score one for FCB.

OldXOhio
04-23-2008, 11:10 AM
This is shocking. I would hope this has to do w/ something bigger than the team's start.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 11:10 AM
Worst news I've heard in a long time.

Joseph
04-23-2008, 11:11 AM
How soon before Jocketty starts trading all our young prospects?

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 11:11 AM
W...T...F...

I wonder if the Marty/Butcher incident was a window here. Perhaps we aren't the only ones annoyed by how tightly WK plays his cards to his vest...

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 11:12 AM
I am shocked and don't know what to think about this. Krivsky was taking the long slow route of building up the pitching and we know it had to be done, but like a politician saying he will increases taxes when it has to be done gets axed.

Wow, Castellini doesn't fool around, when he brought in Jockerty he was serious about getting it right now or else, hand writing on the wall.

membengal
04-23-2008, 11:12 AM
Daugherty on 1530 with Eggers right now, and he says that it is, indeed, Jocketty taking over.

He cites WK's lack of people skills, and, in particular, stuff like conflicts with Johnny Alvarez as being among the reasons.

jojo
04-23-2008, 11:12 AM
It's pretty rare to fire a GM during the season.....unless there is an obvious choice waiting in the wings.....

If this is true, I'd love to hear the rationale.

Heath
04-23-2008, 11:12 AM
My initial reaction is a big ol' Huh?

Film at 11.

cumberlandreds
04-23-2008, 11:13 AM
Wow! That is shocking. Looks like Jocketty was in from the start. I hope it works out but I really think Krivsky did a good job and got kind of a raw deal,JMO.

Tommyjohn25
04-23-2008, 11:14 AM
I don't like it. At all. Kriv has done a good job IMO.

membengal
04-23-2008, 11:15 AM
Daugherty on 1530 with Eggers right now, and he says that it is, indeed, Jocketty taking over.

He cites WK's lack of people skills, and, in particular, stuff like conflicts with Johnny Alvarez as being among the reasons.

Daugherty again saying that WK was "rough on people" within the organization and was a concern for the club "for some time".

Also, Daugherty says this can be taken as a sign of just how impatient to get things moving to winning that Castellini is. He doesn't think Monday night's stinkfest helped matters either.

nate
04-23-2008, 11:15 AM
Whoa! Didn't see that one coming! Things are about to get very interesting.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 11:15 AM
I wish he would have at least been able to negotiate Dunn's contract. I am absolutely shocked. This must've been purely political.

OldXOhio
04-23-2008, 11:16 AM
I don't like it. At all. Kriv has done a good job IMO.

agreed - he's certainly done more good than bad.

pahster
04-23-2008, 11:16 AM
Well that was unexpected.

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 11:16 AM
Quite stunning if true, considering the good spirits Wayne seemed to be in during the game broadcast the other night. I thought he seemed the least uptight that I've ever seen him in a public appearance. Certainly not the picture of a man who recognizes that his job is on the line.

I guess Bob doesn't want to have to make good on his pledge to fire himself if the Reds don't win this season!

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 11:19 AM
Quite stunning if true, considering the good spirits Wayne seemed to be in during the game broadcast the other night. I thought he seemed the least uptight that I've ever seen him in a public appearance. Certainly not the picture of a man who recognizes that his job is on the line.

Maybe he already knew he was out and was just sort of making the rounds. Sometimes when there's writing on the wall, having it decided and over with is a relief.

Danny Serafini
04-23-2008, 11:19 AM
The timing on this one sure is odd. "People skills" seems like a strange reason to let a GM go now, makes me think he may have said something really stupid to the wrong person.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 11:20 AM
How soon before Jocketty starts trading all our young prospects?

I was just thinking the same thing...

Walt knows we aren't close to winning. Let's see what he does to change that.

NJReds
04-23-2008, 11:21 AM
That's stunning. And if his people skills were such a big concern, they should've made this move during the offseason, unless there was an incident more recently that pushed him over the edge.

George Anderson
04-23-2008, 11:21 AM
Maybe we can bring Sean Casey back now.:D

Az Red
04-23-2008, 11:22 AM
I wish he would have at least been able to negotiate Dunn's contract. I am absolutely shocked. This must've been purely political.

There has to be something going on behind the scenes. The big 'C' might be frustrated over not finding a right handed hitter. He knows there is a glowing weakness on the team and the GM seems to be doing nothing to fix it. Jocketty is in the office pointing out the glaring problem with the team and how he would fix it. (all my speculation of course)

Is anyone else is carrying this story?

membengal
04-23-2008, 11:23 AM
C Trent on 1530 now...his guesses:

Combination of the money tied up in bad contracts for players let go (Castro, Stanton), roster mismanagement (the Ross conundrum today).

C Trent doesn't think the writing was always on the wall with regard to Jocketty taking over, thinks that Jocketty really didn't want to be thrust into this position right now.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 11:23 AM
Maybe Cast is really fed up with eating all these contracts?? Could Juan Castro have pushed him over the edge?!

jojo
04-23-2008, 11:24 AM
Citing people skills as the reason should help ease Krivsky's transition into another FO........ NOT.

It's a head scratcher.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 11:24 AM
Can't say I'm unhappy.

Joseph
04-23-2008, 11:24 AM
I was just thinking the same thing...

Walt knows we aren't close to winning. Let's see what he does to change that.

I know every prospect doesn't pan out. But I'd hate to think he's going to come in and deal a Cueto, a Bruce, a Bailey for someone just because we need a RH bat.

Gainesville Red
04-23-2008, 11:26 AM
Holy Crap. So sudden. I don't know what to thnk. Unexpected on my end, to say the least.

RedlegJake
04-23-2008, 11:26 AM
Props to WK for all his good moves but it's so obvious now that the Jocketty hiring was a presage to this. I am stunned, though. I'll say this. Castellini is showing he is serious. Win. No excuses. Amazing.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 11:27 AM
I know every prospect doesn't pan out. But I'd hate to think he's going to come in and deal a Cueto, a Bruce, a Bailey for someone just because we need a RH bat.

That is my biggest fear. If Cueto, Volquez, or Bruce is traded, I will freak out- literally.

Gainesville Red
04-23-2008, 11:27 AM
I wonder how Jocketty feels about Bruce being in AAA.

OldXOhio
04-23-2008, 11:28 AM
Walt knows we aren't close to winning.

I don't get this sentiment.

BRM
04-23-2008, 11:28 AM
I wonder how Jocketty feels about Bruce being in AAA.

We'll probably find out in fairly short order.

oneupper
04-23-2008, 11:28 AM
I'm shocked. Krisky blew a few (specially on the contract side), but I'd say his overall performance was on the plus side. No one was better picking up gems for almost nothing.

This is bad news as far as I'm concerned. I'm not convinced Jocketty can do better.

cumberlandreds
04-23-2008, 11:28 AM
That is my biggest fear. If Cueto, Volquez, or Bruce is traded, I will freak out- literally.

Mine too. I'm afraid they will go out and trade one of their grade A prospects for someone with a big name who is on the verge of being washed up.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 11:29 AM
I thought Daugherty's column this morning was incredibly stupid - looking at things completely black and white as opposed to keeping our eyes on the future while striving to succeed in the present. I know that has been a dichotomy here on RZ. I think this will prove to be an bad move, setting us back. WK wasn't Mr. Excitement, and he certainly could be taciturn with moves, but I think this organization has been on the upswing; this season's start notwithstanding.

Wow. Castellini caves to the mobs led by the likes of Paul Daugherty.

RedlegJake
04-23-2008, 11:30 AM
C Trent on 1530 now...his guesses:

Combination of the money tied up in bad contracts for players let go (Castro, Stanton), roster mismanagement (the Ross conundrum today).

C Trent doesn't think the writing was always on the wall with regard to Jocketty taking over, thinks that Jocketty really didn't want to be thrust into this position right now.

I agree about the money. I agree that maybe Jocketty didn't want this but Cast manuevered him brilliantly.

Tom Servo
04-23-2008, 11:30 AM
My jaw has yet to return to it's normal position. This is so unexpected.

membengal
04-23-2008, 11:30 AM
I would like to think that Cueto and Volquez, at the least, have shown just how valuable they are and will not be dealt.

I wonder now about them dealing Adam, though...

lollipopcurve
04-23-2008, 11:31 AM
Don't like to see the organization undergo another upheaval -- let's see if Jocketty wants to bring in a new set of advisors, scouting directors, etc..... if so, it'll feel to me like they're just not gaining any traction toward sustainable success.

Az Red
04-23-2008, 11:31 AM
C Trent on 1530 now...his guesses:

Combination of the money tied up in bad contracts for players let go (Castro, Stanton), roster mismanagement (the Ross conundrum today).

C Trent doesn't think the writing was always on the wall with regard to Jocketty taking over, thinks that Jocketty really didn't want to be thrust into this position right now.


I don't buy the 'money tied up in bad contracts'. Mr. C just lost a bunch of money by firing Kriv. It puts him in a worse financial situation. It always comes down to wins and losses. There's got to be more to this story.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 11:31 AM
Man, I knew there'd be hell to pay after letting Castro go. ;)

jojo
04-23-2008, 11:31 AM
Well at least we wont have to worry about an infusion of those sabermatronics things just yet. :cool:

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 11:31 AM
Unbelievable.

No way that Bob woke up and decided now was the time to fire Wayne, he had to have had it in mind for a long time, should have just done it over the offseason when Walt became available.

Comforting I suppose that dysfunction will continue to be a Reds tradition.

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 11:32 AM
Man, I knew there'd be hell to pay after letting Castro go. ;)

I was thinking that, Darth Castros final victim :D

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:32 AM
No way. This is crazy.

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 11:33 AM
C Trent on 1530 now...his guesses:

Combination of the money tied up in bad contracts for players let go (Castro, Stanton), roster mismanagement (the Ross conundrum today).



That is not a bad assumption. Investors, financial and accounting people get disturbed over tossing money out the door in the millions of dollars, especially if it is done repeatedly like it has been since Krivsky took over.

Roy Tucker
04-23-2008, 11:33 AM
Yeah, its a curious move.

Lots of valleys and peaks in the curve, but its general trend was up.

Has a Bill Bergesch to Murray Cook feel to it.

Always Red
04-23-2008, 11:33 AM
This is very Steinbrenner-ish of Cast and the Reds. Not sure if I like it or not- it smacks a bit of over-reaction at this point in the season.

I had heard through the grapevine that there is "no way in the world" that Jocketty wanted to be GM, and he was very happy with the position he was in. Guess that was wrong!

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 11:35 AM
I know every prospect doesn't pan out. But I'd hate to think he's going to come in and deal a Cueto, a Bruce, a Bailey for someone just because we need a RH bat.

I'd be surprised if Cueto or Bruce found their way out of town thanks to Walt.

Bailey, on the other hand, would not surprise me at all.

I have a feeling we'll see a mass exodus with our farm system.

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 11:35 AM
Man, I knew there'd be hell to pay after letting Castro go. ;)

I suppose that $1.00 hot dogs are out the door now too. :( ;)

RedlegJake
04-23-2008, 11:36 AM
My guess is that Cast wanted Krivsky out in the off season but Jocketty said no - I'll be an advisor but not the GM. The bad start gave Cast what he wanted all along.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:37 AM
I'm not very pleased with this. You can say goodbye to our strong farm system. After all these years of having nothing in the farm, Wayne was able to build it up into a top notch system. Damn.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 11:38 AM
I don't get this sentiment.

If the plan is to win in 2008, then we're not even remotely close.

If the plan is to win in 2009, there's still time to make that happen.

MWM
04-23-2008, 11:38 AM
I don't like it. I've been very lukewarm on Krivsky, but I don't like what this signals about the organization. What have they learned early inthe season that they didn't know before it started. It tells me this organziation doesn't really know what it's doing. This makes little sense to me unless there's something there we just don't know about.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 11:39 AM
I'm not stunned. The roster is disaster with redundant parts, the team is struggling.

I have never been a big WK fan but I will take a wait and see attitude no matter the GM. If there is an area that seemed to improve under WK is was player development(but maybe it was just luck).

In addition, there is anecdotal evidence that WK wanted "yes" men and tended to ignore contrary opinions.

RFS62
04-23-2008, 11:39 AM
Very surprising. There better be more to the story.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:40 AM
I hope Jocketty doesn't start trading off any of the young guys.

rotnoid
04-23-2008, 11:40 AM
ESPN's picked up on Doc's column and is reporting the firing now. I have to admit, I never saw it coming mid season. Just doesn't make sense. There's little a new GM can do this time of year anyway.

jojo
04-23-2008, 11:40 AM
I'm not very pleased with this. You can say goodbye to our strong farm system. After all these years of having nothing in the farm, Wayne was able to build it up into a top notch system. Damn.

I dunno. Should Clinton get credit for the economy of the 90's or should he get credit for not screwing it up?

That's kind of where I am with Krivsky and his stewardship of the Reds farm.

Tom Servo
04-23-2008, 11:40 AM
ESPN.com seems to blame The Trade, showing they aren't the most in-touch group.

Danny Serafini
04-23-2008, 11:41 AM
I don't buy the 'money tied up in bad contracts'. Mr. C just lost a bunch of money by firing Kriv. It puts him in a worse financial situation. It always comes down to wins and losses. There's got to be more to this story.

He ate a lot more cutting Juan Castro than he did by firing Krivsky.

rotnoid
04-23-2008, 11:41 AM
I dunno. Should Clinton get credit for the economy of the 90's or should he get credit for not screwing it up?

That's kind of where I am with Krivsky and his stewardship of the Reds farm.

Beat me to it. DanO had some very nice drafts.

RedlegJake
04-23-2008, 11:41 AM
Well. We have a name manager and name GM. We're all set.

bucksfan2
04-23-2008, 11:41 AM
I can't help but think there was a major disagreement with a player personel move that Krivsky said something to the tone of "I won't do that, you will have to fire me in order to do that".

Puffy
04-23-2008, 11:42 AM
I'm not very pleased with this. You can say goodbye to our strong farm system. After all these years of having nothing in the farm, Wayne was able to build it up into a top notch system. Damn.

Why again exactly?

It sure wasn't his drafts - Krivsky did take talent that was already within the system and put policies and procedures in place that streamlined things and allowed for development but who is to say that those things are going anywhere?

Again, his two first round picks have been Stubbs and Merasco (sp?) - his other picks are at low levels and there is no guarantee how they'll end up, but I can't say I'm too sorry that he won't be handing the number 7 overall pick this year.

puca
04-23-2008, 11:42 AM
I seriously wonder whether Cueto and/or Bruce would still be with the Reds if not for Krivsky. I really wasn't much of a Krivsky backer in the past, but he won me over somewhat by not flinching this offseason.

Krivsky failed to assemble a functional major league team, but thankfully he didn't morgage the future while trying. In fact the team is better positioned than ever with a nice stable of young arms. Let's hope Jocketty can clean up the major league mess without blowing up the future.

MississippiRed
04-23-2008, 11:43 AM
I don't like it. I've been very lukewarm on Krivsky, but I don't like what this signals about the organization. What have they learned early inthe season that they didn't know before it started. It tells me this organziation doesn't really know what it's doing. This makes little sense to me unless there's something there we just don't know about.

I'm also lukewarm about Krivsky. I think he had a tough job, did parts of it well, parts not so well.

I am really concerned, though, that MWM is right. It doesn't say much about the organization being run effectively.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:43 AM
I was reading yesterday that Krivsky nearly traded Joey Votto and other rpospects to the Phillies for Jon Lieber two years ago. That would have been an awful trade but he was starting to learn from his mistakes it seemed.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:44 AM
Why again exactly?

It sure wasn't his drafts - Krivsky did take talent that was already within the system and put policies and procedures in place that streamlined things and allowed for development but who is to say that those things are going anywhere?

Again, his two first round picks have been Stubbs and Merasco (sp?) - his other picks are at low levels and there is no guarantee how they'll end up, but I can't say I'm too sorry that he won't be handing the number 7 overall pick this year.

The Reds young talent stayed healthy and progressed under Krivsky. Not so much under the previous regimes. Krivsky and crew were obviously doing something right.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 11:44 AM
I'm not very pleased with this. You can say goodbye to our strong farm system. After all these years of having nothing in the farm, Wayne was able to build it up into a top notch system. Damn.

I'm thinking that this is a bit of an overreaction.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 11:46 AM
The Reds young talent stayed healthy and progressed under Krivsky. Not so much under the previous regimes. Krivsky and crew were obviously doing something right.

Jocketty also had some winning seasons in St. Louis. Just a few.

So, in the same line of thinking, is it "Hello to winning seasons on the big league level?"

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 11:46 AM
but I don't like what this signals about the organization.

What have they learned early inthe season that they didn't know before it started. It tells me this organziation doesn't really know what it's doing. This makes little sense to me unless there's something there we just don't know about.


They turn over a lot of people from management to the playing field after a very short time, people who were suppose to be the answer or solution.

One has to wonder why those people who are or were sent packing were here to begin with and who assessed them at the start for them to be found outstanding at a point and then dumped.

Somebody doesn’t know what the hell they are doing. If it was HR department within other businesses one would have to take a hard look at the hiring practices and who was responsible for that.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 11:46 AM
I think it was as simple as RCast could see what a terrible job WK did of putting together a 25 man roster ... and was fed up with him doing nothing to fix it as the team is floundering.

Az Red
04-23-2008, 11:47 AM
He ate a lot more cutting Juan Castro than he did by firing Krivsky.

Yes, sad isn't it...

pedro
04-23-2008, 11:47 AM
I'm surprised.

I will say that if Krivsky was truly the root of interpersonal conflicts in the front office then I can understand why they'd do this now.

I have a feeling (totally unsubstantiated) that Dusty Baker may have more to do with this than Jocketty. Especially considering the quotes about the Josh Fogg signing.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 11:47 AM
I think it was as simple as RCast could see what a terrible job WK did of putting together a 25 man roster ... and was fed up with him doing nothing to fix it as the team is floundering.

I said it a short while back. I think WK would have value in a player development type role, but the overarching GM position may have been too much for him.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 11:48 AM
I'm surprised.

I will say that if Krivsky was truly the root of interpersonal conflicts in the front office then I can understand why they'd do this now.

I have a feeling (totally unsubstantiated) that Dusty Baker may have more to do with this than Jocketty. Especially considering the quotes about the Josh Fogg signing.

If a manager can run a GM out of town, then I would be pretty disappointed in Bob.

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 11:49 AM
If a manager can run a GM out of town, then I would be pretty disappointed in Bob.

Dusty was Bob's call, could be he's got the ear of the owner more then anyone.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 11:49 AM
I said it a short while back. I think WK would have value in a player development type role, but the overarching GM position may have been too much for him.all of the redundant bench players and the fact the team was considering carrying three bad catchers has been enough for me.

I don't know what will happen with when Ross is activated but there are a number of moves that need to be made.

rotnoid
04-23-2008, 11:49 AM
If a manager can run a GM out of town, then I would be pretty disappointed in Bob.

With the Jocketty addition you have to think he already had one foot out the door after his contract expired anyway. Dusty helped I'm sure, but to say he ran the GM out of town, is probably a little hyperbolic.

Puffy
04-23-2008, 11:50 AM
The Reds young talent stayed healthy and progressed under Krivsky. Not so much under the previous regimes. Krivsky and crew were obviously doing something right.

OK - isn't that what I said? He put valuable procedures in place that have allowed and encouraged propspects to flourish.

Why is that going to change? No one else has gotten fired, so why?

And what was your reaction when the guy who discovered your favorite new Red, Cueto, was forced out by the same Krivsky you now credit with developing Cueto? And the same guy who blasted krivsky on the way out I might add...

BRM
04-23-2008, 11:50 AM
Maybe it's as simple as this:



Under Krivsky, the Reds went 161-184, going 80-82 in 2006 and 72-90 in 2007.


Cast wants to win badly and he wants to win NOW. The Reds haven't been winning under Wayne's reign.

Cyclone792
04-23-2008, 11:51 AM
Daugherty on 1530 with Eggers right now, and he says that it is, indeed, Jocketty taking over.

He cites WK's lack of people skills, and, in particular, stuff like conflicts with Johnny Alvarez as being among the reasons.


Daugherty again saying that WK was "rough on people" within the organization and was a concern for the club "for some time".

Also, Daugherty says this can be taken as a sign of just how impatient to get things moving to winning that Castellini is. He doesn't think Monday night's stinkfest helped matters either.

I speculated this theory here in a thread last fall - especially regarding Almarez - and few people believed it at the time. Maybe it's true, maybe it still isn't true, but it's interesting that some of the subtle signs I saw last season (and earlier) are now being tossed around for why he was fired today.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 11:51 AM
Dusty was Bob's call, could be he's got the ear of the owner more then anyone.seems probable. Maybe there was a meeting where RCast asked Dusty his opinion of the state of the roster. I have not many complaints about Dusty to this point other than Patterson hitting leadoff.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 11:51 AM
Wow, this is great news.

Even if you loved Wayne, you've got to love the fact that Cast is not complacent and will not accept mediocrity. This is great.

Wayne certianly wasn't the worse GM we had. He brought in some talent. His supporters have a good point there, but he also made many mistakes.

I'm so pumped about having Jocketty take over. This is the most optimisitc I've been about this club in a LONG time.

Way to kick some booty Cast. It's great having an owner that wants to win, instead of being on the perpetual 5 year plan.

westofyou
04-23-2008, 11:52 AM
Crazy stuff

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 11:52 AM
Not to toot my own horn, but I did a pretty exhausted analysis of the Cardinals run under Jocketty. Perhaps it will provide some context and insight in to what direction he might take the Reds.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62580&highlight=Cardinals

Puffy
04-23-2008, 11:53 AM
Now, if only LaGenius would retire and Dave Duncan would then follow Jocketty over to Cincinnati.....

princeton
04-23-2008, 11:54 AM
Jocketty's a terrific GM and this is a good situation for a guy like him, especially if the development and scouting people don't take off in protest.

but Krivsky did a fine job. He was an obvious talent.

OldXOhio
04-23-2008, 11:54 AM
If the plan is to win in 2008, then we're not even remotely close.

If the plan is to win in 2009, there's still time to make that happen.

I guess it would help if I knew what your definition of what "win" means. Win as in the World Series? Agreed. Win as in contend for the NLC with a winning record? Why is that notion so far fetched ? To say we're not remotely close insinutates our holes are far more gaping than most others in the division.

Again, I just don't get it.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 11:54 AM
Here's my take on all of this:

I think Wayne has done a great job of infusing talent into the organization, but I fear he is at a point where he was not quite sure what else he could do to improve the team. I really like most of the moves Krivsky made (Arroyo trade, Hamilton and Phillips pickups, Harang and Dunn extensions, Volquez trade) and was fairly neutral to negative on The Trade- although it's looking a lot better this year with the emergence of Bray and Thompson. I think Jocketty, on the other hand, does have some ideas about what to do right now to improve this team, and turn it from a team on the cusp to a team that can win.

As long as Jocketty doesn't touch Cueto, Volquez, Bruce, Encarnacion or Votto, I'm actually ok with giving him the reigns. (I'm assuming Harang and Phillips are untouchable at this point.) I also would like to see us hang onto Bailey, Bray and Thompson, but I won't shed many tears if they're gone. I'm very curious to see how Jocketty deals with the Adam Dunn situation- in a way it strikes me as similar to the JD Drew scenario he faced in St. Louis. I am on the record as wanting to keep Dunn, so long as he'll stay for $60 MM or less. I really hope Jocketty doesn't want to keep Jr. around.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 11:55 AM
Maybe it's as simple as this:



Cast wants to win badly and he wants to win NOW. The Reds haven't been winning under Wayne's reign.and with neither Dunn or Jr signed for 2009 things weren't looking up next year either.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 11:55 AM
That's stunning. And if his people skills were such a big concern, they should've made this move during the offseason, unless there was an incident more recently that pushed him over the edge.

My guess is that Cast gave Wayne one more chance to build a winning team.
Cast opened up the wallet to get Dusty and Cordero. Cast was willing to eat salaries of previous mistakes.

In hindsight, look at the moves Wayne made last winter, other than Cordero.
Hamilton for Volquez may turn out to be a good trade (too early), but that's clearly a trade which hurts the short term contention chances. Maybe it helps longterm, but that's not the kind of move Cast wanted.

I wonder if Wayne bit the bullet and traded for Haren, a setup man,and a RH bat if it would've saved his job.

Well, at least now Princeton doesn't have to worry about Wayne making a desperation move to save his job. Sorry Wayne, but you are the Weakest Link, Goodbye!

pedro
04-23-2008, 11:56 AM
If a manager can run a GM out of town, then I would be pretty disappointed in Bob.

I'm not suggesting Dusty "ran him out of town" just that I have a feeling that Dusty might give less "diplomatic" answers if asked about certain players on the roster thus coloring Castellini's perhaps already waning opinion of Wayne.

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 11:56 AM
I think it was as simple as RCast could see what a terrible job WK did of putting together a 25 man roster ... and was fed up with him doing nothing to fix it as the team is floundering.

Yes, and a couple real boils on the team again this year like Fogg and Patterson as well as the Belisle blow out the other night. Shuffling the deck chairs on the centerfielder with no resolve, three catchers two of which one could question the value of etc.

rotnoid
04-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Jocketty's a terrific GM and this is a good situation for a guy like him, especially if the development and scouting people don't take off in protest.

but Krivsky did a fine job. He was an obvious talent.

If the reason for the firing is really WK was hard on people, I wouldn't expect this to happen at all. If Jocketty is weak on development, he most likely knows it and is bound to want to keep as many good people (or at least people that know the system) around as he can. At least in the short term.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Jocketty's a terrific GM and this is a good situation for a guy like him, especially if the development and scouting people don't take off in protest.

but Krivsky did a fine job. He was an obvious talent.

Agreed.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-23-2008, 11:57 AM
I'm not very pleased with this. You can say goodbye to our strong farm system. After all these years of having nothing in the farm, Wayne was able to build it up into a top notch system. Damn.


I think this is an overreaction.

Bruce, Cueto, Bailey, and Votto - arguably the reason the Reds have jumped in most organizational rankings were here before Krivsky. Saying he's responsible for the surge in the organization's jump (in two years) is just as flawed as calling his draft's failures after two years. Neither is able to be determined at this time.

The farm system is bound to take a hit by next year anyway, simply due to those four making the jump in 2008.

What we know about WK. Bad contracts. Roster mismanagement. Little skillls dealing with the media. Lack of communication with himself and the manager. Juan Castro. Rheal Cormier. Mike Stanton. Freel contract. Alex Gonzalez (decent signing, but not working out-bad luck). Millions spent on aging free agents.

The good: Picking up diamonds off the scrap heap (Hamilton, Phillips, and Keppinger) and trading Wily Mo for Arroyo. "The Trade" still may end up being considered a success someday if Thompson turns out and Bray gets back to pre-trade form. Harang contract and Dunn extension. Too soon to tell on Arroyo contract and Cordero acquisition.

IslandRed
04-23-2008, 11:58 AM
I'm definitely of mixed emotions here.

I've posted before that it's difficult to overestimate the difficulty of the task Krivsky took on. When he was hired, we had one organizational strength -- major-league hitting. Everything else was crap, top to bottom. I don't think it's reasonable for an owner to expect that pile of junk to be turned into the best team in the NL Central by now, not unless he's going to match the Cubs dollar for dollar. Krivsky's done a lot of good things and the talent base is orders of magnitude better. At the same time, he had some weaknesses and it was legitimate to ask if he had the skills to turn that talent into a cohesive pennant contender.

Or, to put it another way: I don't think Jocketty would have done as well as Krivsky at rebuilding the mess we had in February 2006; but now that the talent base is once again viable, it is entirely possible Jocketty will do a better job from this point forward than Krivsky would have.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:58 AM
If the same developmental people stay around then I have no problem with this.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 11:58 AM
all of the redundant bench players and the fact the team was considering carrying three bad catchers has been enough for me.

I don't know what will happen with when Ross is activated but there are a number of moves that need to be made.

Agreed. I think his roster construction is poor. At times it seemed like he didn't take into account how an addition of a player may affect the organization down the line. Just like "We'll worry about it later."

Az Red
04-23-2008, 12:00 PM
The crux of the firing?

1. Castro being designated and eating his contract. Too many bad contracts
2. Calling up Belisle and not Bailey.
3. Fogg's ERA of 12.46.
4. Left handed heavy lineup tied Baker's hands.
5. Kriv yelled at the Jocketty for forgetting to make a new pot of coffee.

westofyou
04-23-2008, 12:00 PM
Wayne was on TV the night before last.... bet he didn't expect it.

I didn't...

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 12:01 PM
Interesting take Benihana. We see this with managers all the time. You have one guy who brings you back to respectability. But you find it takes a different skill set to get that guy to really put you over the top.

Puffy
04-23-2008, 12:01 PM
I'm definitely of mixed emotions here.

I've posted before that it's difficult to overestimate the difficulty of the task Krivsky took on. When he was hired, we had one organizational strength -- major-league hitting. Everything else was crap, top to bottom. I don't think it's reasonable for an owner to expect that pile of junk to be turned into the best team in the NL Central by now, not unless he's going to match the Cubs dollar for dollar. Krivsky's done a lot of good things and the talent base is orders of magnitude better. At the same time, he had some weaknesses and it was legitimate to ask if he had the skills to turn that talent into a cohesive pennant contender.

Or, to put it another way: I don't think Jocketty would have done as well as Krivsky at rebuilding the mess we had in February 2006; but now that the talent base is once again viable, it is entirely possible Jocketty will do a better job from this point forward than Krivsky would have

I think that is excellently stated.

OldXOhio
04-23-2008, 12:02 PM
The crux of the firing?

1. Castro being designated and eating his contract. Too many bad contracts
2. Calling up Belisle and not Bailey.
3. Fogg's ERA of 12.46.
4. Left handed heavy lineup tied Baker's hands.
5. Kriv yelled at the Jocketty for forgetting to make a new pot of coffee.



6. Kriv take up two parking spaces
7. Kriv borrow Walt soap and not return it

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 12:02 PM
Wayne was on TV the night before last.... bet he didn't expect it.

I didn't...

Yeah I'm pretty shocked. I figured he would be here all year at the very least. Something had to happen in the last 24 hours or so for this to happen.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 12:04 PM
Yeah I'm pretty shocked. I figured he would be hear all year at the very least. Something had to happen in the last 24 hours or so for this to happen.

This leads me to believe that there was some personal situation, a straw-that-broke-the-camels-back, sort of moment in the last 36 hours.

Red in Chicago
04-23-2008, 12:05 PM
I don't like to celebrate things like this, but the team's a bit of a mess, so why not make some changes. They just signed Dusty, so it wasn't going to be him. Wayne's wasted some pretty good chump change, and BC's patience has probably worn thin already...especially with the Cards playing well and the sea of blue shirts about to invade Cincinnati in early May.

I wish Wayne well, but more importantly, I hope this gets the team back on track.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-23-2008, 12:05 PM
I think some on here mentioned that something didn't feel right with the way WK came in a ran some people out (Almarez, etc.). Many of those people called him out in the press, Almarez included.

The organization needed cleansed, but he certainly seemed to ruffle some feathers with the way he dealt with people.

And now it appears this was one aspect of his undoing.

medford
04-23-2008, 12:05 PM
I heard Bob C fired the Kriv-dog b/c he refused to sign Coombs to a long term deal.

Seriously, I'm 50-50 on this. I like a lot of things that Krivsky did. The Farm system seems to be much more stable, and while he doesn't get full credit for the Cueto's, Votto's, Bruces & Bailey's in the sytem, he does get credit for some or most of their development. He's been the opposite of Jimbo. If JimBo was here, Bailey would have been in the majors out of the gate last season, and probably would have made his debut a season before. Krivsky has proven to be patient w/ the young talent in the system, forcing them to remain on the same level. While he may be overpatient at times (see Bruce), I think in the long run its far better than the way Leatherpants rushed the next best thing up the big leagues hoping to make a big splash.

Krivsky also gets high marks for picking up Hamilton, Phillips and yes, even Ross. While Ross is certainly not the greatest catcher/hitter around, given the general dearth of catching in the big leagues, he was able to acquire at least min. production out of Ross for basically nothing. I think the production Ross has given the Reds (or some may say the lack there of) has been far greater to the organization than what the cost would have been to pick up a Salty or Johny Estrada or other "name" catcher that has moved around the last few seasons.

On the negative side, its been widely reported how Krivsky rubbed people the wrong way. Even worse was the repeated bad contracts to guys like Stanton & Castro. For a team like the Reds, you have to make every single buget dollar work for you. You can't afford to continually eat the contracts of a Milton, or Belisle or Stanton or Castro. All that does is take away the amount of money lying around to extend out an Adam Dunn long term.

I see a lot of worry about Jocketty trading away the farm to help the big league team. Somebody fill me in, Did Jocketty do a lot of that in St Louis? I know there were some trades, but they also put a pretty darn good team on the field for several seasons in a row. The Reds have not had a darn good team since 2000.

Once Jocketty came here, I thought it would pretty much take a playoff type season for Krivsky to return next season. I'm surprised it happened this early; there must have been a straw that broke Bob C's back. Perhaps a combination of things that convinced him it was time to make a move before this season is lost.

nate
04-23-2008, 12:06 PM
I said it a short while back. I think WK would have value in a player development type role, but the overarching GM position may have been too much for him.

Yep.

I never thought WK was a great GM, just average. Organizationally, when Wayne came in, the Reds were in a real bad way. He was great at fixing some things (minor league development and finding some good young players in creative ways) but not so great at others (the bullpen). I think it would've taken a way above average GM to have made things significantly better in the same amount of time.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 12:07 PM
Why again exactly?

It sure wasn't his drafts - Krivsky did take talent that was already within the system and put policies and procedures in place that streamlined things and allowed for development but who is to say that those things are going anywhere?

Again, his two first round picks have been Stubbs and Merasco (sp?) - his other picks are at low levels and there is no guarantee how they'll end up, but I can't say I'm too sorry that he won't be handing the number 7 overall pick this year.

This was my 2nd thought after I figured Walt would be sending some youngsters out of town.

IMO, Wayne's drafts in the 1st round have been Bengals-esque, aka horrible, and almost to the point of exactly what the organization didn't need. I wasn't looking forward to a 3rd consecutive wasted 1st round draft pick.

The jury's still out on Mesoraco, but Stubbs most likely will be a bust, unless he has a huge rebound year this year.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 12:07 PM
This leads me to believe that there was some personal situation, a straw-that-broke-the-camels-back, sort of moment in the last 36 hours.

Maybe it was the fact that this board has been somewhat dead with the locking of the gamethreads.

Thanks for looking out for us, Bob.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 12:07 PM
I don't like it. I've been very lukewarm on Krivsky, but I don't like what this signals about the organization. What have they learned early inthe season that they didn't know before it started. It tells me this organziation doesn't really know what it's doing. This makes little sense to me unless there's something there we just don't know about.

It depends on what the goal of the franchise is.
It appears that the goal now is to win.

The farm system is healthy now, but apparently Cast's goal isn't to have the best farm system in baseball. And in all fairness, most of the credit for the farm strength goes to Dan O. Wayne has done very little to boost the farm compared to what DanO did. I'm not sure Wayne's drafts were much better than Bowdens, although it is too early to tell.

The problem the Reds face is that they have a small window with Dunn-Harang-Arroyo-Jr. Their core of veteran talent is getting closer to the expiration date each day. Now, it is not all bleak with the young talent this team has, but the problem the Reds have faced since the end of the 1999 season has been the inability to consistently replace talent lost to attrition.

For example, they've never been able to replace LaRue or Cameron. Votto has finally arrived to fill 1b, but there was a void there for a long time.
Hopefully EdE finally fills the role at 3b, which has been a weakness since 2003. The bullpen has been awful since 2003.
Wayne has filled some holes, but the problem is that you can't rely on the farm system and bottom feeding to fill every hole. Good trades need to be made. For the most part, Wayne was not good at making trades.
For the most part, Wayne was horrible at figuring out who to commit longterm money too. His only real "hits" were Harang and Dunn.. the two total no brainers. Arroyo might be a hit. Phillips might be a hit (Both those two are risks, but acceptable).. Freel, AGon, Castro, Cormier, Staton horrible. The non-trade of Weathers last year was a big mistake.

15fan
04-23-2008, 12:07 PM
21 games in?

There's clearly something behind the scenes.

Reminds me of firing Tony Perez 44 games into 1993.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:08 PM
This leads me to believe that there was some personal situation, a straw-that-broke-the-camels-back, sort of moment in the last 36 hours.3 bad catchers on the 25 man roster?

westofyou
04-23-2008, 12:08 PM
21 games in?

There's clearly something behind the scenes.

Reminds me of firing Tony Perez 44 games into 1993.

Bing Devine

Wheelhouse
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
If the plan is to win in 2008, then we're not even remotely close.

If the plan is to win in 2009, there's still time to make that happen.

Disagree. With the rotation the Reds have, the improved bullpen, and the depth in the minors, the Reds can win this year.

coachw513
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
Man, I knew there'd be hell to pay after letting Castro go. ;)

Without finishing everyone's thoughts...that's the best line of the day...:D

Moves like this reak of panic, of a lack of direction...grasping at straws...remember the firing of Tony Perez...not that these are similar, but in some ways they "feel" similar...

I personally was pleased with the overall upturn of the franchise and felt WK was accumulating many more +'s than -'s on the ledger...I don't know exactly what WK could do about many of the roster issues...we have 2 guys in Griffey and Dunn that both need to be here right now, though we really only have use for 1...a talent base of LH hitters doesn't mean dealing away Votto or Bruce...

Now much of the relief corp stands squarely in Kriv's corner...some poor decisons...but if Bray is healthy and he and Thompson develop to potential, than even the dreaded "trade" isn't something that should poison him...

As for the "sunk costs" contracts of folks like Castro???...to me, this had to be the issue...obviously, Jock must have Cast's ear and has convinced him that these are mistakes too critical to ignore...that the money spent for folks like Stanton, Castro, Freel, Hatteburg (maybe), Patterson, Fogg, etc were decisions that simply cannot be made by a GM over and over...for that I cannot necessarily argue ...

But if this change takes any of our young talent away under any rationale (I am speaking of EE, Votto, Phillips, Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Bruce) and they don't lock Dunn up long term to a sensible price, then color me disappointed, and more depressed than ever...

I'm sick of rooting for 2 teams (Reds and Dolphins) that consistently screw up and change course almost randomly at times...here's to hoping this is not a case of that...

SteelSD
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
Geez. I don't pay attention for a bit and the Reds go and fire their GM. While the timing is surprising (I figured @ASB), I'm not a bit surprised considering that Castellini brought in Jocketty during the offseason.

I'd suggest that Jocketty is the guy Castellini always wanted running things. "Communication" as the reason for the discharge is likely just code for "Krivsky and Jocketty couldn't possibly exist in the same front office" any longer.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
21 games in?

There's clearly something behind the scenes.

Reminds me of firing Tony Perez 44 games into 1993.this was year 3 and had been building. I think there was obviously something that pushed RCast over the edge.

Kc61
04-23-2008, 12:09 PM
My guess is that Castellini agreed to a higher payroll (and to eat bad contracts) but told Krivsky he won't accept another losing season. My guess is he didn't require a championship, but wanted a positive season. While there's no doubt Krivsky has improved the talent level, for the Reds and on the farm, he hasn't put together a winning roster and the team is again losing.

Castellini seemed very upset last year when the Reds were punching bags for the Cubs, with Cub fans all over GABP. Perhaps he saw that kind of thing coming again, and just won't have it.

Krivsky certainly changed the team's direction and added a lot of talent. But some owners want results and won't abide lengthy rebuilding projects.

I'm sure Krivsky will be a major league GM again soon. And for the Reds, Jocketty certainly is a great choice.

coachw513
04-23-2008, 12:10 PM
Maybe it was the fact that this board has been somewhat dead with the locking of the gamethreads.

Thanks for looking out for us, Bob.

:beerme:

classic

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 12:10 PM
21 games in?

There's clearly something behind the scenes.

Reminds me of firing Tony Perez 44 games into 1993.

Or maybe Casty just got tired of his GM coming into the office and asking him to eat contracts, millions of dollars at a time, that he had signed.

Dave Ross is up next -- signed to big money and forced onto the roster -- and I'm sure the guy Krivsky asked be released was also making more than his fair share of coin.

Spare change eventually adds up, as edabbs is so famous for regularly pointing out.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:10 PM
Disagree. With the rotation the Reds have, the improved bullpen, and the depth in the minors, the Reds can win this year.not with the current roster.

WebScorpion
04-23-2008, 12:11 PM
That's what happens when a 'Win Now' owner has a 'Win Later, but do it right' GM and a 'Win Now' special advisor. ;) Personally, I do not like it. I prefer a home grown crop of young, exciting players to assembling a team from high priced veterans. :thumbdown

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 12:12 PM
Another thought, maybe the Castro situation was his swan song. Perhaps Krivksy, in addition to whatever other communications issues, was unable to see past some personal preferences for the betterment of the organization. Perhaps he'd been given the order to let Castro go after refusing to do it for some time. He eventually did it, but wasn't at all happy about it, let that be known, and things spun out from there.

I could very easily see a conversation which ended with something like "Being a GM requires you to make some tough decisions, Wayne. This is a business and we're here to win. You can let personal feelings towards players prevent you from making the right baseball moves."

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 12:14 PM
I think it was as simple as RCast could see what a terrible job WK did of putting together a 25 man roster ... and was fed up with him doing nothing to fix it as the team is floundering.

Yes, I agree. Wayne had 3 offseasons to improve this team.
When you look at results, he's only marginally improved it.

He changed the concentration of talent from position players to starting pitching, but didn't raise the overall talent level of the team under his watch.

He also had the advantage of a very liberal checkbook from Cast. It's not as if he was working under a John Allen budget. He had the money to trade for Haren or a big RH bat, but not the balls to do it.

Hard to feel sorry for the guy when Cast gave him a clear goal and the money to do it, and he has clearly failed.

The bad people skills is just icing on the cake. We heard reports of this before, from him driving out Almarez, to the fact that he doesn't listen to his advisors on trades. A lot of bright people take a long time to learn that people skills are important, particularly in a management position.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 12:15 PM
Courtesty of www.mlbtraderumors.com



Notable moves during Krivsky's tenure:

* 2-12-06: Scott Hatteberg signed to a one-year, $750K deal.
* 2-13-06: Adam Dunn signed to two-year, $18.5MM extension.
* 3-20-06: Acquired Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena.
* 3-21-06: Acquired David Ross for Bobby Basham.
* 4-7-06: Acquired Brandon Phillips for Jeff Stevens.
* 5-26-06: Traded Cody Ross to Marlins for a player to be named later.
* June '06: Selected Drew Stubbs eighth overall in draft.
* 7-6-06: Acquired Eddie Guardado for Travis Chick.
* 7-13-06: Acquired Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris, and Daryl Thompson for Austin Kearns, Felipe Lopez, and Ryan Wagner.
* 7-26-06: Signed Hatteberg to a one-year, $1.65MM extension.
* 7-31-06: Acquired Rheal Cormier for Justin Germano.
* 7-31-06: Acquired Kyle Lohse for Zach Ward.
* 8-7-06: Acquired Ryan Franklin for a player to be named later.
* 8-16-06: Acquired Scott Schoeneweis for a player to be named later.
* 8-28-06: Signed Javier Valentin to a one-year, $1.325MM extension.
* 9-25-06: Signed Juan Castro to a two-year, $2MM extension.
* 11-20-06: Signed Alex Gonzalez to a three-year, $14MM contract.
* 11-20-06: Signed Mike Stanton to a two-year, $5.5MM contract.
* 11-20-06: Traded Jason LaRue to the Royals for a player to be named later.
* 12-7-06: Acquired Josh Hamilton for cash.
* 12-7-06: Selected Jared Burton in Rule 5 draft.
* 12-12-06: Signed David Weathers to a two-year, $5MM contract.
* 1-2-07: Traded Brendan Harris to Rays for cash.
* 1-10-07: Acquired Jeff Keppinger for Russ Haltiwanger.
* 2-6-07: Signed Aaron Harang to a four-year, $36.5MM extension.
* 2-8-07: Signed Bronson Arroyo to a two-year, $25MM extension.
* 4-16-07: Signed Ryan Freel to a two-year, $7MM extension.
* 4-27-07: Traded Chris Denorfia to A's for Marcus McBeth and another player.
* 5-9-07: Released Rheal Cormier.
* June '07: Selected Devin Mesoraco 15th overall in draft.
* 10-31-07: Exercised '08 options on Hatteberg, Dunn, and Valentin.
* 11-28-07: Signed Francisco Cordero to a four-year, $46MM contract.
* 12-21-07: Acquired Edinson Volquez and Danny Herrera for Josh Hamilton.
* 1-23-08: Signed Jeremy Affeldt to a one-year, $3MM contract.
* 2-15-08: Signed Brandon Phillips to a four-year, $27MM extension.
* 2-21-08: Signed Josh Fogg to a one-year, $1MM contract.
* 3-3-08: Signed Corey Patterson to a one-year, $3MM contract.
* 4-8-08: Released Mike Stanton.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 12:15 PM
Caveat wonders aloud to the group:

How much longer does Jay Bruce stay a Red, in AAA, with a new GM that has a past history of trading young players for established stars and a manager that has a past history (albeit showing no signs of that history at the moment) of preferring established players over young ones.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:15 PM
one of the Cardinal strengths during their run was have some rather serviecable bench players ... something the current roster completely lacks.

Wheelhouse
04-23-2008, 12:16 PM
not with the current roster.

We've seen it time and time again--teams with a strong rotation and mediocre hitting can contend.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:17 PM
with a new GM that has a past history of trading young players for established stars looking at RMR's Card history post the "young guys" he gave up were almost all dogs until the Mulder deal(that trade is really the only blemish on Jockettys tenure as GM).

SunDeck
04-23-2008, 12:18 PM
I guess I'm not surprised by this, although I figured Castellini would have fired him a while ago. Why he waits until now is the part I don't get, unless he had thought he wanted to give this guy whom he didn't really like a bit of a chance, only to decide in the last week that he really couldn't stand him.

But how can any of us really be surprised that Krivsky is out and Jocketty is in? What did we really think Jocketty was there for? At least it's him and not someone without a proven record as a GM.

I do hope Krivsky lands somewhere good. He didn't really do any harm in my opinion, especially considering that he is responsible for Phillips and Volquez.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:19 PM
We've seen it time and time again--teams with a strong rotation and mediocre hitting can contend.not with an utterly useless bench. If Jocketty can remake the bench and call up Brice he might have something.

New Fever
04-23-2008, 12:19 PM
Caveat wonders aloud to the group:

How much longer does Jay Bruce stay a Red, in AAA, with a new GM that has a past history of trading young players for established stars and a manager that has a past history (albeit showing no signs of that history at the moment) of preferring established players over young ones.

Looking back at BA Top 100 list over the last 10 years, Jocketty only had 3 top 30 prospects and he didn't trade any of them. (J.D. Drew traded while in the bigs, Rick Ankiel, and Colby Rausmus)

paulrichjr
04-23-2008, 12:19 PM
I hate this (Period). It reminds me of the Yanks and Billy Martin.

My feeling for the reason though is that Wayne probably approached Cast about another player signed to a contract that he wanted to either release or trade (paying most of the salary) and Cast had enough of eating contracts. I'm guessing Freel or David Ross...

I must admit that he had a great talent of picking up gems for nothing and also knowing who to trade and who to keep. I love that he traded neither Cueto, Votto, or Bailey this offseason. I just hope Jock can find another Pujols in June....

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 12:20 PM
and with neither Dunn or Jr signed for 2009 things weren't looking up next year either.


Great point. I brought that up several times when discussing the Reds window.
Right now, the Reds could use a big RH bat. If Jr and Dunn walk, they'll also need a big LH bat or two. For all their faults, Dunn and Jr are huge parts of the offense and will be difficult to replace.

Also, I have no problem with firing Wayne this early in the season. If Jocketty will be the permanent GM, that gives him time to prep up for the 2009. Other clubs will be more receptive to talking to Jocketty now, even if little actual trading occurs.

On the other hand, given that Jocketty was enjoying a reduced role, I wonder if he will only be a transitional GM.

BRM
04-23-2008, 12:20 PM
not with an utterly useless bench. If Jocketty can remake the bench and call up Brice he might have something.

The defense isn't exactly a strong suit either.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 12:21 PM
Caveat wonders aloud to the group:

How much longer does Jay Bruce stay a Red, in AAA, with a new GM that has a past history of trading young players for established stars and a manager that has a past history (albeit showing no signs of that history at the moment) of preferring established players over young ones.

On the good side, his trades for position players (McGwire, Renteria, Rolen, Edmonds, Walker) tended to work out much better than his trades for pitching (Mulder) -- and we're actually in pretty good shape when it comes to starting pitching.

In fact, if you set the Mulder deal to the side, he didn't really lose any of his prospect for vets deals. Yes, that one hurt, but on balance, those deals made the Cardinals the force they were -- that, Dave Duncan's magic, and Albert Pujols falling from the sky.

westofyou
04-23-2008, 12:21 PM
It reminds me of the Yanks and Billy Martin.

Without the Championship Trophies

Roy Tucker
04-23-2008, 12:22 PM
Caveat wonders aloud to the group:

How much longer does Jay Bruce stay a Red, in AAA, with a new GM that has a past history of trading young players for established stars and a manager that has a past history (albeit showing no signs of that history at the moment) of preferring established players over young ones.

I'd be very surprised to see Jay Bruce traded.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Homer Bailey traded.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 12:22 PM
Or maybe Casty just got tired of his GM coming into the office and asking him to eat contracts, millions of dollars at a time, that he had signed.

Dave Ross is up next -- signed to big money and forced onto the roster -- and I'm sure the guy Krivsky asked be released was also making more than his fair share of coin.

Spare change eventually adds up, as edabbs is so famous for regularly pointing out.

Absolutely.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 12:23 PM
The Reds have scheduled a 4:00 press conference.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 12:24 PM
The crux of the firing?

1. Castro being designated and eating his contract. Too many bad contracts
2. Calling up Belisle and not Bailey.
3. Fogg's ERA of 12.46.
4. Left handed heavy lineup tied Baker's hands.
5. Kriv yelled at the Jocketty for forgetting to make a new pot of coffee.


You know, we've always suspected that Castro had some very compromising pictures of both Wayne and Bowden, and that's how he kept his job.

I wonder if Castro showed the dirt to Cast after he was released. It wouldn't surprise me to see Castro carry out his threat. :lol:

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 12:25 PM
What the heck?!? I'm shocked....

Wheelhouse
04-23-2008, 12:25 PM
Jocketty has not been afraid to bring up players the way Kriv was. He's even brought players directly from AA to the bigs. Might we see Daryl Thompson at #5?

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 12:26 PM
Jocketty has not been afraid to bring up players the way Kriv was. He's even brought players directly from AA to the bigs. Might we see Daryl Thompson at #5?

I think that is a bit of a stretch.

But I wouldn't be shocked at Bruce coming up very soon to kind of stamp the new regime.

RedsFan75
04-23-2008, 12:26 PM
Maybe we'll see Bruce starting in Center tonight!

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 12:27 PM
Reds name Walt Jocketty President of baseball operations and general manger

CINCINNATI -- Cincinnati Reds President and Chief Executive Officer Bob Castellini today announced that special advisor Walt Jocketty has been named President of Baseball Operations and General Manager.

Jocketty replaces Wayne Krivsky as general manager.

Jocketty was hired January 11 as special advisor to advise and assist Castellini in every facet of baseball operations, including matters related to the front office, Major League field and support personnel, scouting and minor league and international operations along with training and medical services.

A 33-year veteran of professional baseball, including the previous 13 with St. Louis as general manager, Jocketty's Cardinals teams went to the playoffs seven times. He won the National League Central Division six times and the 2001 NL Wild Card while earning two National League championships and the 2006 World Series title. The Cardinals have produced winning seasons in seven of the last eight years.

While general manager in St. Louis, Jocketty was named Major League Baseball's Executive of the Year by The Sporting News in 2000 and 2004 and by Baseball America in 2000. In 2004, he also received the Rube Foster Legacy Award from the Negro Hall of Fame as National League Executive of the Year.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20080423&content_id=2573847&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:27 PM
I wouldn't be surprised to see Homer Bailey traded.or in the starting rotation in the near future. I am not a Belisle fan. His track record through the minors and in the majors has been that he is quite hittable.

I would expect to see some moves in the near future to clean up the bench.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 12:27 PM
21 games in?

There's clearly something behind the scenes.

Reminds me of firing Tony Perez 44 games into 1993.


It does. The way I always figured it was that Tony was hired becausee of his ethniticity. Marge was going through some problems for what she said about blacks and this hire would show people whe wasn't a racist pig and it was a good sale to Reds Fans because of Tony's popularity.

However the man who JimBo really wanted to hire was Davey Johnson and he was there all along as a consultant. When JimBo fired Tony, Davey was right there to take over.

But I'm not sure why Bob kept Wayne around if he really wanted Jocketty. :confused:


I'm sick of rooting for 2 teams (Reds and Dolphins) that consistently screw up and change course almost randomly at times...here's to hoping this is not a case of that...


Painful, isn't it? :(

Jpup
04-23-2008, 12:27 PM
:eek: I'm surprised this happened today. I knew it was coming, but I never thought of it happening after a nice win last night with Wayne's guy tearing it up. Wayne Krivsky appears to be a fine man and someone who is good at his job and has continued to learn as he went. He made several mistakes, but got better as time went on. He'll land on his feet and I hope he gets a job soon. If Dan O'brien can get a job, anyone can.

I'll go on record, again, saying that I am no Walt Jocketty fan and that's mostly because he came from St. Louis and I see how terrible their farm has been over the years. The Reds are not going to spend the money that the Cardinals did to get the players it took to win a championship. I think Walt will have lots of trouble turning this club into contenders anymore than Wayne could have. I hope for the best and will support Jocketty as much as possible.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 12:27 PM
Maybe we'll see Bruce starting in Center tonight!

I sure hope.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:28 PM
Jocketty has not been afraid to bring up players the way Kriv was. He's even brought players directly from AA to the bigs. Might we see Daryl Thompson at #5?I would guess that Bailey gets the first shot. His BB rate is way down.

cumberlandreds
04-23-2008, 12:29 PM
Maybe we'll see Bruce starting in Center tonight!

Not tonight but soon. Bruce will be called up or traded very soon,IMO. Either way he won't be in Louisville for the 2008 Kentucky Derby. :)

Kc61
04-23-2008, 12:31 PM
Another point -- Griffey and Dunn are effectively free agents this year. They have been the cornerstones of this offense, for better or worse. The decision whether to keep one or both, and how to replace them, are key decisions for the future of this offense.

Perhaps the owner wanted Jocketty to make those decisions. Perhaps the future of these two as Reds will be addressed sooner instead of later.

So perhaps you will see Dunn traded soon; and perhaps Griffey re-signed for a couple of years at a lower salary. Or maybe it's Dunn that's signed.

BRM
04-23-2008, 12:31 PM
I would guess that Bailey gets the first shot. His BB rate is way down.

Along with his K rate.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 12:31 PM
Not tonight but soon. Bruce will be called up or traded very soon,IMO. Either way he won't be in Louisville for the 2008 Kentucky Derby. :)

If Bruce is traded then Jocketty's tenure in Cincy better be very, very short.

TRF
04-23-2008, 12:31 PM
This is very Steinbrenner-ish of Cast and the Reds. Not sure if I like it or not- it smacks a bit of over-reaction at this point in the season.

Agree with this 100%

I was as hard as anyone on Krivsky on this board. I think he got too much credit for minor league success stories, especially when you consider the Reds top minor leaguers coming into this season were drafted or signed by JimBo and DanO.

As for the 25 man roster, he's really only responsible for BP, Ross, Kepp and whoever is currently manning CF, if that ends up being Bruce (and it should) that drops his mark to three players in the starting 8. He's made more of an impact on the rotation with Arroyo and Volquez. Hell, Volquez alone should have bought him till at least June. He added Burton and Cordero too, finally transforming the pen into something that won't kill the Reds.

His drafts were kinda weak, but he was active on the international scene.

I don't really get firing him at this point though. Very Steinbrennerish.

RFS62
04-23-2008, 12:32 PM
Krivsky's days were numbered. The minute Jocketty became available, Bob set his sights on his man.

Now he's got him.

Jpup
04-23-2008, 12:32 PM
Not tonight but soon. Bruce will be called up or traded very soon,IMO. Either way he won't be in Louisville for the 2008 Kentucky Derby. :)

I'm not so sure this will change Jay Bruce's forecast. If Bruce is traded, Bob fired the wrong guy.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-23-2008, 12:32 PM
One does have to wonder what caused this now. Why didn't Cast just do this in the off-season? What was the straw that broke the camel's back that kept him from keeping WK until his contract came up? I wonder if Wayne expected an extension by now and with Jocketty looming brought up this concern to his boss and maybe it got heated.

I hope we eventually find out.

RFS62
04-23-2008, 12:33 PM
Anyone think the crack beat reporters in Cincy will get to the bottom of all this?

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 12:34 PM
Walt's trade history in StL

http://stl-sabr.bajink.com/fungoes/?page_id=736

westofyou
04-23-2008, 12:34 PM
The Reds fired general manager Wayne Krivsky today. I can't say I'm surprised, but I also think he's getting a bit of a raw deal. With the young talent in the Reds pitching staff, and more to come with Homer Bailey, this team was a year and a couple of hitters away from contending. They're not even near the worst team in the NL, let alone the majors. I wonder if there is something deeper than just the performance of the team.

Walt Jocketty takes over. I guess this means the Reds will see more veterans in their last useful season playing for the team.

http://www.baseballmusings.com/

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 12:34 PM
Looking back at BA Top 100 list over the last 10 years, Jocketty only had 3 top 30 prospects and he didn't trade any of them. (J.D. Drew traded while in the bigs, Rick Ankiel, and Colby Rausmus)

I'm trying to think of young players that Jocketty traded that ended up doing well. Of course, everyone knows about Haren-Mulder.

The only other ones I can think of were Kennedy but that netted them Edmunds. Palanco ended up being pretty good but that got them Rolen (IIRC).

It's not as if Jocketty had a slew of young superstars and traded them off for a bunch of Rheal Cormiers.

The Cards also developed some pretty good young talent that they kept.

I wouldn't panic about Jocketty coming in here and raping the farm system.

I do expect changes to be made, and that's exciting.

I wonder if a veteran player like Dunn who consistently applauded "Win now" moves like the Cordero signing will be more inclined to resign with a guy like Jocketty at the helm.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:35 PM
Along with his K rate.down slightly. I take a pitcher with a DOM(K/BB) rate of over 4, generally anything over 2 is good. Combine that with a skill he has consistently shown(ability to limit HRs) and he doesn't need a K an inning to be successful. The only concern is that AAA ends up with a lot AAAA players who have the same skill set(low BB and high contact) which will lower both the BB rate and K rate.

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 12:35 PM
This is from Fay's blog:


I just spoke briefly to Reds CEO Bob Castellini. I asked him why they made the move with Wayne Krivsky now.

"We're not winning. We haven't started well. It was time."

He said the move was a difficult one.

"He gave it his all. He's a good guy."

Castellini will have more to say at the 4 p.m. press conference.

I think the thing that did Krivsky in was contracts. Mike Stanton, Rheal Cormier, Juan Castro. I've also heard that he and Walt Jocketty were not getting along great.

Krivsky and I had our differences. But I liked the guy. He'll land on his feet.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 12:38 PM
Not tonight but soon. Bruce will be called up or traded very soon,IMO. Either way he won't be in Louisville for the 2008 Kentucky Derby. :)


The Bats are probably on the road that weekend so that's probably a safe bet. ;)

BRM
04-23-2008, 12:38 PM
We're not winning


That's probably all Bob needed to say.

bucksfan2
04-23-2008, 12:38 PM
Are we failing to forget one Albert Puljos who Jocketty was responsible for? I don't see Bruce going anywhere other than Cincy in the near future and I also see Bailey in the starting 5 shortly.

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 12:38 PM
this was year 3 and had been building. I think there was obviously something that pushed RCast over the edge.

The eating of contracts comes to mind

BuckeyeRedleg
04-23-2008, 12:38 PM
I'm not sad WK is gone, but I think the "we're not winning" excuse is pretty weak.

I'm sure it's deeper than that and we'll never know.

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 12:39 PM
Jocketty may make his first roster move today. I think today was they day they were talking about bringing Ross up.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 12:39 PM
I guess it would help if I knew what your definition of what "win" means. Win as in the World Series? Agreed. Win as in contend for the NLC with a winning record? Why is that notion so far fetched ? To say we're not remotely close insinutates our holes are far more gaping than most others in the division.

Again, I just don't get it.

My definition of win is a consistent team that notches at least 90 Ws on an annual basis, and not only is always at the top of the division, but has some success in the playoffs not only in their league, but the World Series. Winning a weak NL Central doesn't make us a winning ballclub.

Our holes are far more gaping than most others in the division, IMO.

The NL Central will most likely be a 2 horse race between the Cubs and the Brewers. If we play well, we'll be 3rd. Do I think we're a last place team in the NL Central? No, I don't, but at the same time we're far from "competing", and we're light years away from "winning".

I share the sentiment echoed by others that "competing in the NL Central" is a completely different animal than being a "winning ballclub".

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:40 PM
I think today was they day they were talking about bringing Ross up.His rehab assignment has ended. Unless they are going to release him it is time to bring him back.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 12:42 PM
His rehab assignment has ended. Unless they are going to release him it is time to bring him back.


They can keep him on the DL indefinitely.

Jpup
04-23-2008, 12:43 PM
With Arroyo going tonight, I would be surprised if Ross isn't back today.

OldXOhio
04-23-2008, 12:43 PM
That's probably all Bob needed to say.

To base this decision on the results of the first three weeks of the season seems silly to me. The win now mentality clearly prevailed, but for Cast, it might have been more to the idea that the current record is one thing, the prospects of contending for a title anytime soon is another. Perhaps two more years of .500 type baseball isn't going to cut it in BC's mind.

Guacarock
04-23-2008, 12:44 PM
Hope we don't follow the Cardinals' path of picking up every drunk, druggie and low-life player out there.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 12:44 PM
My definition of win is a consistent team that notches at least 90 Ws on an annual basis, and not only is always at the top of the division, but has some success in the playoffs not only in their league, but the World Series. Winning a weak NL Central doesn't make us a winning ballclub.

I would've been happy with consistent progress towards that.
Wayne has made decisions which made last season horrible and this season's team doomed to sub-500. Some of his dumb decisions will haunt us next year as well (Like Freel and one more year of AGon).

This team has not improved over Wayne's tenure. Wayne's bad moves have outweighed his good ones.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:45 PM
I wonder if a veteran player like Dunn who consistently applauded "Win now" moves like the Cordero signing will be more inclined to resign with a guy like Jocketty at the helm.I think it was pretty clear that WK had no interest in signing Dunn to an extension. According to Dunn there hadn't been any conversation about an extension ... which says everything.

It will be interesting to see if the orgainization has a change of heart and opens contract talks with Dunn.

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 12:46 PM
Doesn't Ross have to be brought back today?! It will be interesting to see who the new GM sends down in replacement....

westofyou
04-23-2008, 12:46 PM
My definition of win is a consistent team that notches at least 90 Ws on an annual basis,

Which the Reds have achieved 19 times, or 12.6% of their existence. The Yankess OTOH have done it 52% of their existence

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:47 PM
They can keep him on the DL indefinitely.but they can't send him out on rehab and he has no options. So they can have him sit around and do nothing or ...

Chip R
04-23-2008, 12:47 PM
Hope we don't follow the Cardinals' path of picking up every drunk, druggie and low-life player out there.


Scott Spezio is out there.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 12:47 PM
but they can't send him out on rehab and he has no options. So they can have him sit around and do nothing or ...

Well, there's a GM opening. ;)

LincolnparkRed
04-23-2008, 12:48 PM
I think it was pretty clear that WK had no interest in signing Dunn to an extension. According to Dunn there hadn't been any conversation about an extension ... which says everything.

It will be interesting to see if the orgainization has a change of heart and opens contract talks with Dunn.

Bingo. I think RCast forced Wayne to do that 2 yr deal and Wayne might not have gotten over it, which could be a cause of friction between them.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:48 PM
Doesn't Ross have to be brought back today?! .he has to be brought back from rehab, he does not have to be activated.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:50 PM
Scott Spezio is out there.Spezio has a problem, that being said he is exactly the kind of bench player that was so effective for the Cards that the Reds completely lack(disclaimer:I am not advocating signing Spezio)

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 12:52 PM
Disagree. With the rotation the Reds have, the improved bullpen, and the depth in the minors, the Reds can win this year.

Rotation? Harang, Cueto, Volquez and who? Arroyo is off to a horrid start, the jury's out on Belisle, and Fogg proved how bad he truly is. Bailey still needs time in AAA, so where does that leave us?

Improved bullpen? Who besides Cordero?

Depth in the minors is great, but if the guys on the 25 man aren't winning, then let's see some of the parts change places and cities. Unfortunately, Bruce is the only guy that will be remotely impact once he gets to the bigs. We're more than Jay Bruce away, offensively.

I understand that 162 games is a long season, but this is at best a 3rd place team in the NL Central, as they currently stand. We're not off to a great start, and what tells you that we'll drastically turn this around to win the division?

marcshoe
04-23-2008, 12:53 PM
It was good to have a direction, to be headed toward respectablity, to be developing a credible rotation. If only because of that, I am sorry to see this happen. I hope WJ has it left in him to do the right thing by this rising young team.

princeton
04-23-2008, 12:55 PM
didn't get on with Jocketty, who decided that he didn't need to put up with it and told Cast that he was just going to push off?

that'd make sense. But Jocketty's also been having trouble in the people department lately.

TRF
04-23-2008, 12:55 PM
Rotation? Harang, Cueto, Volquez and who? Arroyo is off to a horrid start, the jury's out on Belisle, and Fogg proved how bad he truly is. Bailey still needs time in AAA, so where does that leave us?

Improved bullpen? Who besides Cordero?

Depth in the minors is great, but if the guys on the 25 man aren't winning, then let's see some of the parts change places and cities. Unfortunately, Bruce is the only guy that will be remotely impact once he gets to the bigs. We're more than Jay Bruce away, offensively.

I understand that 162 games is a long season, but this is at best a 3rd place team in the NL Central, as they currently stand. We're not off to a great start, and what tells you that we'll drastically turn this around to win the division?

Burton hit a rough little patch, but he's been solid overall, Affeldt has been a huge surprise. Mercker hasn't been bad, and there is a plethora of LH waiting in line for one to fall. I'm liking the pen so far.

As for the rotation, Arroyo and Belisle need to kick it up a notch.

pedro
04-23-2008, 12:57 PM
Burton hit a rough little patch, but he's been solid overall, Affeldt has been a huge surprise. Mercker hasn't been bad, and there is a plethora of LH waiting in line for one to fall. I'm liking the pen so far.

As for the rotation, Arroyo and Belisle need to kick it up a notch.

Mike Lincoln hasn't looked bad either.

Vada Pinson Fan
04-23-2008, 12:58 PM
Maybe it's as simple as this:


Under Krivsky, the Reds went 161-184, going 80-82 in 2006 and 72-90 in 2007.

Cast wants to win badly and he wants to win NOW. The Reds haven't been winning under Wayne's reign.

Bob Castellini has said all along he wants a winner and with that no one can doubt he is the Reds most pro-active owner this team has seen in my lifetime which includes the success Marge Schott had in 1990. The Krivsky shortcomings, imo, that caused his firing was poorly constructed longterm player contracts, inability to achieve that 1st winning season in the Krivsky era, and comparatively poor attendance. Seeing so many empty seats last night versus the Dodgers even in the field boxes is an indictment of fan apathy at this point.

Wayne Krivsky did some nice things with this organization already noted in previous thread posts. Overall I would give Krivsky a C+ to B-. I'll be forever thankful for WK bringing Brandon Phillips here from Cleveland and listening to his scouts/player personnel people for the Rule V drafting of Josh Hamilton and then flipping him into Edinson Volquez and last but certainly not least, the farm system is as good as it has been in decades. It will be interesting to see and hear IF Castellini gives his reason(s) for firing Krivsky at this point in time. I doubt BCast gives much insight, if any, into Krivsky's dismissal other than something like we need to move forward.

Wheelhouse
04-23-2008, 12:58 PM
Rotation? Harang, Cueto, Volquez and who? Arroyo is off to a horrid start, the jury's out on Belisle, and Fogg proved how bad he truly is. Bailey still needs time in AAA, so where does that leave us?

Improved bullpen? Who besides Cordero?

Depth in the minors is great, but if the guys on the 25 man aren't winning, then let's see some of the parts change places and cities. Unfortunately, Bruce is the only guy that will be remotely impact once he gets to the bigs. We're more than Jay Bruce away, offensively.

I understand that 162 games is a long season, but this is at best a 3rd place team in the NL Central, as they currently stand. We're not off to a great start, and what tells you that we'll drastically turn this around to win the division?

Harang, Volquez and Cueto are a superb front 3. Arroyo will come around. #5 is a problem with every team. The Reds have a rotation that matches with any in the division. "Who besides Cordero?" Having Cordero is enormous. And with Jared Burton as a setup guy, and Affeldt for middle relief, the Reds have a very much improved bullpen. Granted it could go nowhere but up...

TRF
04-23-2008, 12:59 PM
I had forgotten about Lincoln.

Like I said, I'm as harsh a critic as anyone, but this firing seems premature.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 12:59 PM
A Bray and Roenicke infusion in the pen could do wonders over the course of the season.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 01:00 PM
A Bray and Roenicke infusion in the pen could do wonders over the course of the season.

Yep. I was just thinking that myself.

Wheelhouse
04-23-2008, 01:01 PM
A Bray and Roenicke infusion in the pen could do wonders over the course of the season.

Here, here. I'd also like to get a blast of Daryl Thompson at #5.

RedsFan75
04-23-2008, 01:01 PM
Now I guess we just wait and see what the moves are today...

flyer85
04-23-2008, 01:02 PM
I had forgotten about Lincoln.

Like I said, I'm as harsh a critic as anyone, but this firing seems premature.I still can't get over the redundancies on the roster. WK had the entire off season to do something about the catching issue, Hopper/Freel and Hatty/Votto and yet he did nothing. This team now has 4 CFs on the roster and yet not one of them is the quality of player you want to give the everyday job to.

Strikes Out Looking
04-23-2008, 01:02 PM
Like most here, I'm of mixed emotions about this. I really think Wayne's personality, the team's start and the eating of a number of contracts (with more possibly on the way) had something to do with this.

I also think when we find out the answers to 1.) who goes away for Ross to come up and; 2.) who will be the fifth starter in a few days, we'll know more about why Wayne was now fired.

I also think in some ways Wayne was hampered by the failures of Griffey and Dunn to really start off the season strong. If one of those two had been on a tear in early April, the Reds could've won 3-4 more games and be 12-9, which would have made it tough to fire WK. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

And I don't agree that possibly losing both Dunn and Griffey next year will make the Reds a non-contender. While the Reds will have to make up their offense, I think the team will be better defensively with at least one of them gone--and if they can find a RH hitter to replace one, will also work on that lefty stigma the Reds seem to have.

Edskin
04-23-2008, 01:03 PM
Many people are of mixed emotions right now.

I am of no emotions.

I've just hit the point where we've been so bad for so long, that I really don't have much an opinion at this point.

WK did some good things, he did some bad things, and we're really not much better than when he arrived.

Now, did he get us headed in the right philisophical direction? That is going to take some time to find out-- and from that standpoint, I'm not thrilled about his firing---timing is off.

On the other hand, here we are again with roster holes almost everywhere, so I'm certainly not going to be outraged that our GM got the boot.

Like everything else with the Reds right now, I'll just cross my fingers and hope for the best.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 01:03 PM
The one major thing I didn't like about Wayne, was he didn't seem to care much about offense. I really didn't like the direction this offense was going in under his direction, which was into a judy hitting offense like they had in Minnesota. Walt Jocketty tried to pull of a trade for Matt Kemp last year, I wonder if he'll revisit that now?

WMR
04-23-2008, 01:04 PM
I called it. http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1605238&postcount=5

FCB, I thought you said there was no way Krivsky was getting fired this season???

HokieRed
04-23-2008, 01:07 PM
Sorry to see it but utterly unsurprised. This was the plan since the day Walt Jocketty was brought into the organization. The only thing that would have saved Wayne's job was a fantastic start, which we obviously have not managed. I'd give him at least a B on his overall record and I think the need for continuity should have outweighed every other factor. O'Brien also did a much better job than has been recognized. Together, O'B and Kriv, have done much to put the organization on a better footing. The fact it's taken so long is a measure of how bad the organization was when Bowden left. I'm sorry for Wayne and I suspect in a year even Cast will wish he had not done this. I suspect what did finally break Wayne's back was his having to go to Cast again over Castro and admit to having paid out a million bucks or so for a player who's no better than a half dozen options in the minor leagues. Krivsky has done this over and over, and it's got to be taken into account when evaluating his overall performance--i.e. there is a lot of salary money being paid out now for absolutely no return.

harangatang
04-23-2008, 01:08 PM
I'm fine with, why wait until mid-summer whrn the Reds are out of it to make the change that was coming anyway. Castellini had the excuse now so he went ahead and pulled the trigger while the Reds still have a chance at the Central with the right moves.

RBA
04-23-2008, 01:10 PM
One possible scenario: WK was going to ink Mike Piazza to a two year multi-milliion dollar contract and BCast blew a fuse.

Johnny Footstool
04-23-2008, 01:11 PM
Hope we don't follow the Cardinals' path of picking up every drunk, druggie and low-life player out there.

Josh Hamilton?

jmcclain19
04-23-2008, 01:12 PM
Definitely a stunner.

Say what you want about liking or hating Krivsky, it does not bode well for the Reds to now been on essentially their 6th GM in five years.

TRF
04-23-2008, 01:18 PM
I still can't get over the redundancies on the roster. WK had the entire off season to do something about the catching issue, Hopper/Freel and Hatty/Votto and yet he did nothing. This team now has 4 CFs on the roster and yet not one of them is the quality of player you want to give the everyday job to.

That's a valid point, but I really think what got WK fired was a strained quad.

I firmly believe had Bruce been healthy and won the job in ST, WK still has a job. I have no problem with Hatte/Votto if Votto is the starter. He is. The three catchers wasn't a big deal since Ross got hurt. Now that he's healthy, Valentin should be gone. I'm ok with Patterson as the 4th OF if Bruce is the starter.

Thing is this firing fixes none of that. Valentin was likely gone today regardless. Bruce is doing fine in AAA, but at this point I don't see him getting the call unless the Reds option Hopper. The rotation isn't going to be better if Bailey is rushed again. The pen, for the most part is fine.

redsfan30
04-23-2008, 01:19 PM
The timing of this move is awful....just awful. Unless there were MAJOR problems in the front office that he was directly responsible for.....

My initial response is this is a bad move....

George Anderson
04-23-2008, 01:20 PM
Say what you want about liking or hating Krivsky, it does not bode well for the Reds to now been on essentially their 6th GM in five years.

Bingo...and hopefully Jocketty works out, otherwise what quality GM would want to come to a organization that tends to be trigger happy with its GM's?

Johnny Footstool
04-23-2008, 01:21 PM
I bashed Krivsky for the Arroyo/Pena trade, and I was wrong about that one.

I bashed Krivsky for the Kearns/Lopez deal, and I still believe I was right about that one.

Since then, I think Krivsky has made more good moves than bad. Acquiring Volquez for Hamilton was smart, IMO. And any time you can grab talent for free (Phillips, Keppinger, Ross), or at a discounted rate (yes, Corey Patterson for $3 million is a discount) it's a good thing.

Gonzo, I wasn't too fond of at the time. I'm even less fond of that deal now.

The Cordero signing was very good, IMO. Lock-down bullpen arms are worth the cash.

Overall, I'd say Krivsky was about average, but showing signs of improvement.

LoganBuck
04-23-2008, 01:24 PM
I kind of liked Krivsky, not a favorite because of his continued desire to bring in replacement or below players to fill out the last 4 spots on the roster, but liked nonetheless. I liked the fact that he valued Adam Dunn, I liked the fact that that he held onto the top end prospects this offseason, and that he had seemed to know what was going on in the minors. What I fear most is a populist general manager, that makes changes based on the public reaction. The guy who would have sent EdE down, the guy who would have traded Adam Dunn because he doesn't bunt and strikes out too much, and the guy who loves Ryan Freel because he hustles.

Fear the masses, because I suspect they are now the muse.

Team Clark
04-23-2008, 01:26 PM
I would not have fired Wayne. However, this move does not surprise me. I wrote an open letter to Krivsky on this board and was readily slammed for it. I even had to edit it to take out a lot of content. So much has gone on behind closed doors. The FO employees leaving, the general disgruntledness of the people around Wayne have played a huge role in his firing. Daughtery at least has the guts to put it out there.

I am GUESSING that Wayne and Dusty were not communicating on the same page when it comes to players and that may have been the final straw. Just a fuess.

IslandRed
04-23-2008, 01:27 PM
Bingo...and hopefully Jocketty works out, otherwise what quality GM would want to come to a organization that tends to be trigger happy with its GM's?

Good point. The line between demanding accountability and acting like a spoiled six-year-old can be a fine one, and hopefully Castellini made this decision with sound judgment and not in a "but I want it NOW!" temper tantrum.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 01:28 PM
If it were all the bad contracts Bob had to eat that got Wayne fired, I'm not sure how the Reds are going to improve unless they have to... wait for it... eat more contracts. Unless Walt can pawn off guys like Fogg and Javy and Freel and Hatteberg off to other teams, this team isn't going to be a helluva lot different.

oneupper
04-23-2008, 01:28 PM
I just went back to see what the team looked like before WK took over in 2006. Casey was on his way to Pitt for Dave Williams (O'Brien's last trade).
Wily Mo was still around.

I compared the teams. I don't really think there is a comparison. The 2006 team has been completely revamped. It HAD to be, it was going into a black hole. The 2008 is nowhere near perfect, but I'd take it hands down over what WK inherited.



2006 ........... 2008

C LaRue ......... Ross
1B Noone (Dunn) ........ Votto
2B Womack ......... Phillips
SS Lopez ......... Gonzalez/Kepp
3B Aurilia ........ Encarnacion
LF WMP ........ Dunn
CF Griffey ........ Patterson/Hairston/Freel/Hopper
RF Kearns ........ Griffey
OF-IF Freel

SP Harang ........ Harang
SP Milton ........ Arroyo
SP Claussen ........ Cueto
SP Williams ....... Volquez
SP ?????? ....... Fogg/Belisle

CL Weathers/Coffey ........ Cordero
Mercker

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 01:29 PM
Krivsky his own enemy

By Hal McCoy | Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 12:48 PM
What do you think?

Bob Castellini is a businessman, the nation’s leading fruit and vegetable magnate, and if the price of lettuce and tomatoes has soared the last couple of years, it might be traced back to Wayne Krivsky.

Castellini, CEO of the Cincinnati Reds, fired general manager Krivsky today, replacing him with Walt Jocketty.

During Krivsky’s regime, the team has had to eat more dollar bills than the number of heads of lettuce Castellini sells.

Some questionable contracts that forced the team to pay money to players no longer playing for the Reds didn’t help Krivsky’s cause.

It started with when he signed pitcher Rheal Cormier to a two-year contract. When the team released him it had to pay him something like $3 million NOT to pitch.

When the Reds released pitcher Mike Stanton this spring, it forced them to pay him $3.5 million this year NOT to pitch.

And there is that curious contract he gave outfielder Corey Patterson, who was sitting at home doing nothing during spring training, pursued by no other teams. Krivsky signed him for $3 million when Patterson probably would have taken $500,000 and paid his own way to camp.

He gave utility player Ryan Freel a deal that pays him $3 million this year and $4 million next year and couldn’t trade him unless the team absorbed some of that money.

He gave pitcher Josh Fogg a $1.5 million deal mid-spring training when no other teams were pursuing him, a panic move when Krivsky wasn’t certain how good Johnny Cueto and Edinson Volquez would be.

The $46 million, three-deal for closer Francisco Cordero looked good at the time, but so far, after 21 games, he has had only two save opportunities. That contract may pan out, but right now one wonders.

All this could be overlooked by Castellini if the team showed a propensity for winning, which it hasn’t during Krivsky’s tenure. After all, Castellini signed off on all those deals, taking Krivsky’s advice. Castellini wants to win and he wants to win now.

He and Jocketty worked together in St. Louis when Jocketty helped piece together a team that was not contending to one that contended for more than a decade.

Krivsky and I were friends long before he was named Reds GM. When he worked for the Minnesota Twins, he traveled the country scouting other teams and I encountered him often. We had many lunches together and talked often.

His ambition, of course, was to be a GM and he would say, “If I’d get the Reds job, there are a lot of things I would do and we’d have a lot of fun.”

It wasn’t fun. Krivsky remained my friend, but he changed. He was not forthcoming with information to the media, not even on the most menial things. He was guarded, overly guarded.

Two years ago during the winter meetings in Orlando, I took him aside in his suite after another unproductive media meeting in which he divulged nothing about what the team was doing or trying to do.

I said, “Wayne, remember when we had lunches and chatted about your future and how much fun we’d have together with the Reds?”

“Yes,” he said.

“Well, I’m not having fun,” I said. “Remember when I told you how difficult it was sometimes getting information from your predecessor, Dan O’Brien? Well, you’re worse.”

Krivsky seemed to think about it, but nothing changed. And nothing changed with the Reds.

Nobody likes to see anybody lose his job, especially a friend. But Krivsky cut his own throat.

Jocketty is a good man, too, and a solid baseball man. Things should change, and much for the better.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

RichRed
04-23-2008, 01:29 PM
What do Krivsky and Jocketty have in common?

They both traded for Royce Clayton AND Tony Womack. :evil:


I'm not sure what to make of this move. I was initially very critical of Krivsky but feel that he was beginning to learn on the job. Some of the roster decisions defied belief though and, as others have said, he just may not have been the guy to get the Reds over that hump. I'm not surprised Cast went with Jocketty but I am surprised by the timing.

I'll be very interested to see what Jocketty's first moves are.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 01:31 PM
I think it was pretty clear that WK had no interest in signing Dunn to an extension. According to Dunn there hadn't been any conversation about an extension ... which says everything.

It will be interesting to see if the orgainization has a change of heart and opens contract talks with Dunn.


That's a good point as well. Jocketty values defense a lot as well, but I think he's more pragmatic about not blowing a hole in the offense (which is what would happen if Dunn walked). I didn't consider the angle that part of Wayne's plan might've been to replace Dunn and Jr by design. Sure, Bruce fills one slot, but who does the other slot go to? I have a feeling Wayne would've bottom fed and the offense would've suffered.

HumnHilghtFreel
04-23-2008, 01:32 PM
WOW! I just heard this in the car coming home from school. I really don't know what I think of it at this point.

Definitely did not see this coming.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 01:33 PM
The timing of this move is awful....just awful. Unless there were MAJOR problems in the front office that he was directly responsible for.....

My initial response is this is a bad move....

I've seen this sentiment all over the place. Why? What harm does doing it now do that doing it in July -- or next November -- wouldn't?

In my mind, the only timing issue is that it wasn't done last offseason before he could sign Fogg and Patterson.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 01:36 PM
Anyone think the crack beat reporters in Cincy will get to the bottom of all this?

No chance in Hell.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 01:37 PM
Burton hit a rough little patch, but he's been solid overall, Affeldt has been a huge surprise. Mercker hasn't been bad, and there is a plethora of LH waiting in line for one to fall. I'm liking the pen so far.

As for the rotation, Arroyo and Belisle need to kick it up a notch.

Burton has been good about 1/2 the time so far this year, and bad 1/2 of the time. I hope he comes around and is good all the time. With his history of control issues, I think it's reasonable to expect a lot of up-and-downs with Burton this year, despite his great raw talent..In other words, as always, I will say that I don't think he's sucks, but he's inconsistent.

The bullpen was upgraded simply by giving Maj and Stanton the boot. Wayne should've never had those guys on the team last year in the first place.
Although I do agree that the early returns on Lincoln, Mercker,and Affedlt are good.

jojo
04-23-2008, 01:38 PM
I've seen this sentiment all over the place. Why?

Well there is that draft thingy coming up..... :cool:

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 01:40 PM
With the advent of Jocketty hanging around Wayne was obviously on a short leash. I figured he'd make it till the end of the season. With eating Stanton and Castro's contracts along with potential eating of Freel's and Fogg's coupled with the slow start I moved the timetable up to the all-star break.

If BCast was going to do this, I'd much rather he do it now, than wait untill the season is a total mess.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 01:41 PM
I called it. http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1605238&postcount=5

FCB, I thought you said there was no way Krivsky was getting fired this season???


Actually, I think Falls City was predicting Wayne's firing. I forget the timespan of it, but I remember him predicting it.

In any event, it's kind of obnoxious to call him out like that and rub his face in it.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 01:44 PM
I didn't consider the angle that part of Wayne's plan might've been to replace Dunn and Jr by design. Sure, Bruce fills one slot, but who does the other slot go to? I have a feeling Wayne would've bottom fed and the offense would've suffered.as of right now the Reds will have one ML quality starting OF under their control for 2009, Jay Bruce, since I don't consider the Reds picking up Jr's $16M option as realistic.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Guacarock
Hope we don't follow the Cardinals' path of picking up every drunk, druggie and low-life player out there.

Josh Hamilton?


Don't forget about Freel either.
And Toe Nash. We picked him up, although that wasn't under Wayne's watch.
Every club has it's share of reclamation projects.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 01:44 PM
In any event, it's kind of obnoxious to call him out like that and rub his face in it.Isn't that what Redszone is all about? ;)

redsfan30
04-23-2008, 01:45 PM
I've seen this sentiment all over the place. Why? What harm does doing it now do that doing it in July -- or next November -- wouldn't?

In my mind, the only timing issue is that it wasn't done last offseason before he could sign Fogg and Patterson.

As others have said, this is not a decision that Bob Castellini woke up this morning and made. This is a move that has been thought of for a while. This is a move that needs to be made in the offseason.

Sure, there are some problems on the roster, but there is no denying this team is in a much, much better spot today than it was the day Wayne Krivsky took over this team.

If you (Castellini) want to keep a short leash on Wayne, fine. But I don't understand creating organizational chaos in the month of April with the team only three games under .500.

Unless....there are huge problems in the front office that we do not know about.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 01:47 PM
Yes, I agree. Wayne had 3 offseasons to improve this team. When you look at results, he's only marginally improved it.

I'm playing catch up here, but the fact is, he only had two off-seasons to do it. He was hired weeks before spring training in 2006. I blame that on the foolishness of MLB in dragging their feet on the ownership change, but the fact is, he only got two offseasons.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 01:47 PM
Sure, there are some problems on the roster, but there is no denying this team is in a much, much better spot today than it was the day Wayne Krivsky took over this team. I wonder if Jay Bruce is going to be the only OF on the team next year.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 01:49 PM
Jocketty showed interest in Matt Kemp last season and tried to pull a trade off for him...I wonder if he'll revisit a Kemp deal?