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View Full Version : Are you happy to see Wayne go?



RFS62
04-23-2008, 01:11 PM
A simple poll. Are you happy to see Wayne Krivsky fired, yes or no?

membengal
04-23-2008, 01:14 PM
I think I need a "don't know" option.

Seldom has such a big move happened to one of the teams I am diehard fan of that has left me so conflicted...

jmcclain19
04-23-2008, 01:16 PM
I'm only unhappy because the Reds front office is in a state of constant turmoil.

From the group that should be leading the top down vision of the team - that's not a good thing.

This should have been done in the offseason - last year's or the up coming one.

Jpup
04-23-2008, 01:16 PM
I think it was in poor taste and he was given a contract. It should have been upheld.

George Anderson
04-23-2008, 01:17 PM
I can't see WK being out of work long.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 01:18 PM
I can't really decide right now. I'm in between.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 01:20 PM
I'm not "happy" per se', but i'm not torn up about it either. Wayne has his strengths and his weaknesses. I think he'd make a fine #2, but he had some pretty big blind spots.

redsfan30
04-23-2008, 01:21 PM
No. The timing of this move could not have possibly been any worse. There has to be more than meets the eye here.

Jpup
04-23-2008, 01:21 PM
I'm not "happy" per se', but i'm not torn up about it either. Wayne has his strengths and his weaknesses. I think he'd make a fine #2, but he had some pretty big blind spots.

we all do. :)

BRM
04-23-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm not "happy" per se', but i'm not torn up about it either. Wayne has his strengths and his weaknesses. I think he'd make a fine #2, but he had some pretty big blind spots.

That's pretty much how I feel about it.

dougdirt
04-23-2008, 01:38 PM
Absolutely not. Bad Timing, Bad Replacement, Bad Situation from a Dumb Owner.

WMR
04-23-2008, 01:39 PM
Absolutely not. Bad Timing, Bad Replacement, Bad Situation from a Dumb Owner.

Doug can see his beloved prospects vanishing before his very eyes. ;)

WMR
04-23-2008, 01:40 PM
I'm okay with it. Krivsky had enough weaknesses as a GM that I believe would have been sufficient to keep the Reds from reaching true "contender status."

I am also glad that someone other than Krivsky will be making the final decision on who the Reds select with the #7 overall pick in the draft.

dougdirt
04-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Doug can see his beloved prospects vanishing before his very eyes. ;)

Thats just one part of it..... Jocketty has not shown he has the ability to succeed as a GM unless he has a huge payroll.

dougdirt
04-23-2008, 01:44 PM
I'm okay with it. Krivsky had enough weaknesses as a GM that I believe would have been sufficient to keep the Reds from reaching true "contender status."

I am also glad that someone other than Krivsky will be making the final decision on who the Reds select with the #7 overall pick in the draft.

Krivsky wasn't likely making those decisions anyways, so unless other heads roll it won't matter.

Strikes Out Looking
04-23-2008, 01:45 PM
I didn't like JimBo or DanO, so I was happy to see them go. I think WayneK was competent, so I'm not happy to see him go even if it is for the best.

WMR
04-23-2008, 01:46 PM
Thats just one part of it..... Jocketty has not shown he has the ability to succeed as a GM unless he has a huge payroll.

Maybe Jocketty refused to take the job unless Cast promised to raise the payroll to 100 million next season? Who knows?

NJReds
04-23-2008, 01:46 PM
I'm only unhappy because the Reds front office is in a state of constant turmoil.

From the group that should be leading the top down vision of the team - that's not a good thing.

This should have been done in the offseason - last year's or the up coming one.

My sentiments exactly.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 01:46 PM
I thought Hal's article was very telling.

oneupper
04-23-2008, 01:51 PM
I voted NO. I think he did a fine job with the crap heap he inherited.

Can't agree with every move, but some now look excellent, even "The TRADE", where Kearns and Lopez are pullng down $10 mil off the NATIONAL's payroll.

Hamilton, Phillips, Keppinger, Ross...productive guys pulled off the scrap heap.

I'm thinking that for 2009, he would have let Dunn and Griffey walk, spent the money on a stud pitcher and plucked a fine OF or two from somewhere.

Now we'll never know. Hopefully Jocketty doesn't tear down what WK managed to build.

Far East
04-23-2008, 02:15 PM
The only way I like it is if tomorrow Jocketty trades Dunn and Griffey for Hamilton and a very good RH hitting OF.

Krivisky let the wrong LH hitting OFer go.

This time last year the Future included Votto, Bruce, and Hamilton.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 02:25 PM
Nope.

This team goes through GMs like a guy on a week of bad first dates.

Getting new philosophy every 2 years isn't good for scouting, drafting, development, and roster construction.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 02:45 PM
I'll pass at this point. My answer now would be "Not Sure", although I expressed displeasure in the initial thread. I'll take a wait and see attitude. I'm just tired of this organization being so crazy all the time.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 02:51 PM
Thats just one part of it..... Jocketty has not shown he has the ability to succeed as a GM unless he has a huge payroll.

Actually, the Cards started off at about the same level as the Reds. They invested in themselves and turned themselves into a big market.
So Jocketty did succeed as a small/mid market team. He succeeded so well that the team was able to support a large payroll.

Didn't that Forbes article say that the REds' payroll this year was something like 89 million? That's not exactly peanuts, if it is spent wisely.

I think that if the Reds start to draw more fans and get better TV contracts, Cast is the type of owner that will up the payroll as revenue increases. That's all you can really ask for out of an owner. He's not going to pocket every cent he can like Lindner did.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 02:55 PM
I didn't realize that Wayne was so popular on this newsgroup, based on the poll results so far.

I also don't understand why people are upset at the timing. How is this any different than canning Narron in midseason?

I'm pretty sure Wayne knew this was coming. Why let him finish off the season as a lame duck GM, just for the sake of "honoring the contract"? Why not give Jocketty time to prepare for the draft and trading deadline?

Cast's mistake was to give Wayne one more offseason to bring a winner in. If anything, Cast was too patient when it was clear that he and Wayne were not on the same page.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 02:56 PM
The only way I like it is if tomorrow Jocketty trades Dunn and Griffey for Hamilton and a very good RH hitting OF.

Krivisky let the wrong LH hitting OFer go.

This time last year the Future included Votto, Bruce, and Hamilton.

:confused: So the only way you like Cast is if he reverses what you percieve as Wayne's biggest mistake? Shouldn't you be mad at Wayne for putting the Reds in this position to begin with?

oneupper
04-23-2008, 04:08 PM
Krivsky's RZ approval rating beats any US president I can remember.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 04:18 PM
I think it was in poor taste and he was given a contract. It should have been upheld.

Kind of ironic that he started collecting those unfinished contracts on the player side.

To answer the question, I am happy. I don't think he had the goods to run an organization top to bottom. He was solid in some areas, awful in others. Watching him try and assemble a bullpen was comical at best. He had some good acquisitions, but that isn't the end of it for a GM. There is a lot of other aspects of a team to worry about.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 04:29 PM
I voted Yes, only b/c I think he needed to go.

I'm not happy to see him go, but I think he needed to go.

membengal
04-23-2008, 04:30 PM
After hearing Castellini at the press conference? Yes.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 04:31 PM
Doug can see his beloved prospects vanishing before his very eyes. ;)

He's also looking to see how "Bailey" looks on the back of a Dodgers jersey.

Conversely, maybe we should take a gander at how "Kemp" looks on the back of a Reds jersey.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:31 PM
I don't know if "Happy" is a good way to phrase it....never happy to see someone lose their job (usually - Bowden may have been an exception ;))...but I can't say I oppose the move

flyer85
04-23-2008, 04:32 PM
He's also looking to see how "Bailey" looks on the back of a Dodgers jersey.

Conversely, maybe we should take a gander at how "Kemp" looks on the back of a Reds jersey.seeing as the Dodgers seemed to be offensively challenged I just don't see a Bailey for Kemp type deal anywhere on the horizon.

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 04:36 PM
I don't know if "Happy" is a good way to phrase it....never happy to see someone lose their job (usually)...but I can't say I oppose the move

That is what I was just thinking, the term "Happy" is inappropriate. Are we pleased that Ownership is making changes maybe, but Happy that someone lost their job and was embarrassed, no.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 04:40 PM
seeing as the Dodgers seemed to be offensively challenged I just don't see a Bailey for Kemp type deal anywhere on the horizon.

Playing Pierre over Kemp is largely contributing to that challenge.

Aronchis
04-23-2008, 04:40 PM
I wonder if there isn't a stinkbomb out there like Arroyo's shoulder being mush. Considering the Reds owe him a bunch of money, I could see that snapping Cast's straw.

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 04:55 PM
Playing Pierre over Kemp is largely contributing to that challenge.

The AJones signing isn't helping matters.

Ethier/Kemp is outperforming Jones/Pierre tenfold. It just hurts when the less effective side of the comparison is being paid tens of millions more.

reds44
04-23-2008, 05:17 PM
Indifferent.

pedro
04-23-2008, 05:48 PM
I am now officially more worried about Castellini than I ever was about Krivsky.

reds44
04-23-2008, 05:55 PM
I am now officially more worried about Castellini than I ever was about Krivsky.
And you can't fire the owner....

WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 06:02 PM
Like others have said I'm not happy, but I had to vote that way beause I definately thought the team wasn't moving forward. The young talent was fine, but it wasn't showing up in the W-L column. 80-82, 72-90, 9-12 for a total of 161-184 in the weak Central Division. Eight less victories than 2006 and a winning percentage in 2008 (though it is early) of .428, which is worse than the .444 of last year's disaster. All I could see was regression. And a horrible roster which included Scott Hatteberg, Corey Patterson, Norris Hopper, Ryan Freel, Kent Mercker, Josh Fogg, Matt Belisle, David Ross, and Javier Valentin, but couldn't find room for Homer Bailey and Jay Bruce.

Redszoners loved Krivsky, so I hate it for those of you who supported Krivsky to a fault. None of us know the real reason for the firing, but we obviously don't know everything. My reasons are probably close to correct, but what made Casty snap?

nate
04-23-2008, 06:13 PM
Redszoners loved Krivsky

That hasn't been my experience.

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 06:14 PM
That hasn't been my experience.

No kidding.

oneupper
04-23-2008, 06:15 PM
I am now officially more worried about Castellini than I ever was about Krivsky.

I'll second that. :scared::scared:

WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 06:16 PM
No kidding.

I was going by RFS62's poll.

No matter, we can't bring him back.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 06:22 PM
Cast had to let him go now. Why risk him signing Kenny Lofton for $3mill plus an option for 2009 or worse yet deciding that Paul Bako has done so well that he deserves a guaranteed 3 yr deal with a $2mill buyout option for a 4th?

princeton
04-23-2008, 06:26 PM
I am now officially more worried about Castellini than I ever was about Krivsky.

It's like Redread bought the Reds

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 06:33 PM
Wayne was just on Reds Live and says he's going to still follow this team and root like hell for them. I'm gonna miss him - he did plenty of good for this organization.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 06:43 PM
on the human side I always feel bad for someone losing their job. You could tell WK was quite upset and shocked by the entire episode.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 06:44 PM
I am now officially more worried about Castellini than I ever was about Krivsky.

I agree. He looked dreadful in that press conference. He was snapping and looked miserable. I think he's desperate for his own image and I'm afraid we'll continue this every few years.

pedro
04-23-2008, 06:44 PM
It's like Redread bought the Reds

no comment.

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 06:47 PM
Nope, because this puts us even farther away from a team that can win rings.

Maybe Wayne could get it done maybe not, but now we're back to square one.

Zzzz...

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 06:56 PM
no comment.

then why comment? This is a message board, not an actual conversation, you can just not click the "quick reply" button...

pedro
04-23-2008, 07:02 PM
then why comment? This is a message board, not an actual conversation, you can just not click the "quick reply" button...

It's polite way of acknowledging his reply to my post without being any more specific than I have to.

Ga_Red
04-23-2008, 08:38 PM
Just heard the Jock on TV describe
his plan for the Reds. I don't believe
it's an exaggeration to summarize it
as continuing what we're doing now.
Gonna have meetings....
gonna get ideas from staff..
gonna get BC cooled off...
gonna mouth many baseball platitudes...
what a pr disaster that interview was.

BC is an *idiot* and WJ is the court jester....

and the Reds are worse shape today than
yesterday.

Ty, WK, for your visionary stewardship.

I'm ashamed of Bob Castelinni,
you deserve better.


Hey Bob,
Don't ya just love the Jock's
influence on Bronson, tonight?
Not gonna lose anymore, eh?

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:10 PM
I've thought about it more, and voted no, I'm not happy to see Wayne gone. I think Walt Jocketty is a fine GM but I also think Wayne Krivsky did a very solid job here and was improving. IMO his positives far outweighed the negatives. He landed talent like Brandon Phillips, Jeff Keppinger, and Josh Hamilton for basically nothing and turned Hamilton into Edinson Volquez, which is looking like an unbelievable trade. Yeah maybe he could have handled the media better but I prefer his tight lipped approach to Bowden's loud mouth. Wayne has this organization going in the right direction. He was to sustain the health of our top prospects and keep them progressing through the system, and in the meantime added new top talent and depth to the organization through the draft. I'll miss the guy - He made Jocketty's job a lot easier.

Stormy
04-23-2008, 11:32 PM
Absolutely not. Bad Timing, Bad Replacement, Bad Situation from a Dumb Owner.

Completely agreed. I feel terrible for Krivsky, and frankly the only significantly bad move the guy has made since 'the trade', was the hiring of Dusty Baker, which was completely foisted upon him.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:33 PM
Completely agreed. I feel terrible for Krivsky, and frankly the only significantly bad move the guy has made since 'the trade', was the hiring of Dusty Baker, which was completely foisted upon him.

And I think it's becoming obvious Wayne wasn't the one who rushed Homer Bailey last June... it was Big Bob.

wally post
04-23-2008, 11:43 PM
I think a little dose of Steinbrenner could be good for this organization. Plus, who knows what was happening behind the scenes? But there HAS been a lot of money wasted on old guys (such as Stanton, Castro, etc.) or overpaying for little chips (Freel - did anyone think he was more than a colorful bunch of guys?..etc.)

i think we need to shake ourselves OUT of mediocrity . Not sure if WJ is THE answer, but I think it is a step in the positive direction. I have faith (ie: total lack of proof :D) that he won't trade away our young lions and I think he will be more balanced in evaluating and nurturing our talent than WK was. Just my thoughts...

Plus, jeez, it sure is exciting for a change!!!!

First we have two great young pitchers appear on the roster from the minor leagues and then we get a front office shake-up.. WooHoo!

Patrick Bateman
04-24-2008, 12:48 AM
I'm pretty dissapointed with this news...

Firstly, I like the job Krivsky has done. He's added a lot of talent here at minimal costs. This outweighs his weaknesses in wasting a fair amount of money on unusuable players. I think it's clear that the team is on a good path, and I don't like how the change could put a pitchfork into that path. I'm not as high on Jocketty as some, but at the same time, it's hard to ignore his track record.

With Krivsky though, some of his moves were just so contrary to any kind of logical thinking that he always left me questioning him. Like Juan Castro? From a baseball standpoint there was never, at any point a reason to give him a 2 year deal. In the grand scheme of things, that's a fairly meaningless move, but it represents staunch incompetence IMO. "The Trade" never even came close to passing the smell test. It's moves like that where he had me thinking, how could this guy field a playoff team? He made a lot of good moves, but at the same time, there were obvious weaknesses. From that point of view I like getting a guy like Jocketty that has proven what he can do... but still I do like where the Reds have been heading.

One thing I hate is that the Reds are trying to play this off because of the slow start. If that is really thr truth, then it's an awful decision. You can't make these types of changes based on 25 game sample sizes. In baseball, that is not nearly enough. 3-4 extra wins and suddenly the Reds are doing a pretty damn good job. I agree with Krivsky that big decisons need to be based on the long haul, if we make key moves based on small samples than EE and Votto would be in AAA right now (or moved for the likes of Inge/Crede) rather than watching them rake in the majors.

Alas, it's apparent that there is more to it than this stroy.

reds44
04-24-2008, 12:51 AM
And I think it's becoming obvious Wayne wasn't the one who rushed Homer Bailey last June... it was Big Bob.
:lol:

This is becoming comical. Let's just keep saying things with zero evidence to back any of it up. For the record, on Reds Live today Krivsky said he was "looking forward to working with Dusty" and "highly recommended him" to BCast.

Yeah, but he was forced upon him.

redsrule2500
04-24-2008, 12:55 AM
Nope. He should have been able to finish out his tenure at the position.

WMR
04-24-2008, 12:55 AM
Honestly, from your post AK, it sounds like you're more on the side of this being a good move than a bad one.

redsrule2500
04-24-2008, 12:56 AM
I still wish we had Pete Mack, Krivsky combination.

Patrick Bateman
04-24-2008, 12:59 AM
Honestly, from your post AK, it sounds like you're more on the side of this being a good move than a bad one.

What I'm saying is that I did have my restraints about Krivsky, but in the end, I still liked the way the Reds were moving... and to me this was most important. I think Jocketty may be the guy to get them to the playoffs, but I think longterm, Krivsky is the better fit. He's shown the willingness to commit to the young talent. I hope that doesn't change.

reds44
04-24-2008, 01:00 AM
I still wish we had Pete Mack, Krivsky combination.
Krivsky was the one who didn't give Pete the interview he promised him, or was that Bob too?

WMR
04-24-2008, 01:02 AM
What I'm saying is that I did have my restraints about Krivsky, but in the end, I still liked the way the Reds were moving... and to me this was most important. I think Jocketty may be the guy to get them to the playoffs, but I think longterm, Krivsky is the better fit. He's shown the willingness to commit to the young talent. I hope that doesn't change.

Okay, gotcha.

I can see both sides.

Hopefully Jocketty can help rectify the pitiful state of the 25 man roster without totally bastardizing our farm system.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 01:11 AM
:lol:

This is becoming comical. Let's just keep saying things with zero evidence to back any of it up. For the record, on Reds Live today Krivsky said he was "looking forward to working with Dusty" and "highly recommended him" to BCast.

Yeah, but he was forced upon him.

Do you have any evidence to prove Bob didn't push for Krivsky to call him up? As impatient as Castellini is, my money is on him being the reason Homer was prematurely called up.

SteelSD
04-24-2008, 01:12 AM
Thats just one part of it..... Jocketty has not shown he has the ability to succeed as a GM unless he has a huge payroll.

Did you research that claim or are you just going off the cuff?

During Jocketty's tenure, the Cardinals' median payroll was 74.7 Million dollars. Their median payroll rank among MLB franchises was 10th. Cardinals payroll ranking during the seasons in which they made the playoffs:

1996: 9th
2000: 11th
2001: 9th
2002: 13th
2004: 9th
2005: 6th
2006: 11th

While I have my reservations about Jocketty, it's clear that he's never had "huge" payrolls to work with. And frankly, considering the run started in 2000, why shouldn't the Cardinals be able to advance payroll due to the additional revenue generated by actually making the playoffs consistently? That's where the future money is. Win. Get the fans to trust that you'll continue to win. Grow your revenue. Use that revenue to further your operation. Pretty simple, really.

SteelSD
04-24-2008, 01:15 AM
Do you have any evidence to prove Bob didn't push for Krivsky to call him up? As impatient as Castellini is, my money is on him being the reason Homer was prematurely called up.

OBM, you're asking Reds44 to prove a negative. Just sayin'.

Screwball
04-24-2008, 01:22 AM
Hopefully Jocketty can help rectify the pitiful state of the 25 man roster without totally bastardizing our farm system.

The roster has holes, sure. But I wouldn't call it pitiful.

Pitiful should be reserved for the Giants' 25 man (who the mighty Cardinals went 3-4 against).

WMR
04-24-2008, 01:23 AM
The roster has holes, sure. But I wouldn't call it pitiful.

Pitiful should be reserved for the Giants' 25 man (who the mighty Cardinals went 3-4 against).

I guess I was speaking more to the awful redundancies on our 25 man roster more than anything else. Glaring problems that WK had an entire off-season to rectify.

reds44
04-24-2008, 01:24 AM
Do you have any evidence to prove Bob didn't push for Krivsky to call him up? As impatient as Castellini is, my money is on him being the reason Homer was prematurely called up.
Hey, I don't have evidence that Bob didn't push Krivsky to make the trade with Washington either, maybe he did that too. Maybe Bob REALLY can't wait to get Bruce up here and is planning on hitting Griffey with a fungo bat in the eye during batting practice tomorrow.

Maybe Bob wants the Reds to suck, and this is all just a cover up. He's still secretly a Cardinals fan.

Screwball
04-24-2008, 01:28 AM
I guess I was speaking more to the awful redundancies on our 25 man roster more than anything else. Glaring problems that WK had an entire off-season to rectify.

Very true. However, IMO, this team isn't the disaster some are making it out to be. Bench and corner OF defense is glaring, but I think the core is there for a team that can win its fair share of games.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 01:36 AM
The roster has holes, sure. But I wouldn't call it pitiful.

Pitiful should be reserved for the Giants' 25 man (who the mighty Cardinals went 3-4 against).

Agreed.

Walt Jocketty is stepping into a great situation. He's got an ace at the top of the rotation (Harang), two kids displaying ace stuff (Cueto and Volquez), another kid in AAA with top-of-rotation stuff (Bailey), and another guy that is struggling but is a solid innings eater when he's on top of his game (Arroyo). Not to mention Daryl Thompson who is dominating AA hitters and may find himself in the rotation late in the year. The bullpen has nice arms in Francisco Cordero, Jared Burton, and Mike Lincoln, with guys like Bill Bray, Josh Roenicke, and Pedro Viola on the way up.

With Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Edwin Encarnacion, Brandon Phillips and Adam Dunn (if he re-signs him, and I think he will), he's got a nice core of position prospects to build around. He just needs to find a catcher and a center fielder .

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 01:37 AM
Hey, I don't have evidence that Bob didn't push Krivsky to make the trade with Washington either, maybe he did that too. Maybe Bob REALLY can't wait to get Bruce up here and is planning on hitting Griffey with a fungo bat in the eye during batting practice tomorrow.

Maybe Bob wants the Reds to suck, and this is all just a cover up. He's still secretly a Cardinals fan.

Nice. Can I have these five seconds of my life back?

reds44
04-24-2008, 01:39 AM
The outcrying of sympathy for Wayne Krivsky just doesn't make a lot of sense. Do I think he got fired prematurely? Yes. Would I have given him the rest of 2008? Yes. If Wayne Krivsky didn't want to get fired, don't go 72-90 last year. Don't ask your boss to cover up your mistakes by eating millons of dollars time after time after time. Don't fill up a quater of your payroll with dead weight. Don't clash with people you work with. Don't ignore what your advisors say, and then watch it blow up in your face. Don't be really, by all accounts, a complete jerk to deal with. In the end, baseball is still a job. When you don't get along with those you work with, you are going to clash with them. BCast isn't going to say negative things about Wayne's personality, but if you think it's all about winning you are sadly mistaken. Maybe Wayne could get away with being a complete you know what to the media and those within the organization if he was winning, but if you are losing, your act will get old real fast, and it did.

Don't feel bad for Wayne Krivsky. He's not a plant worker at GM working 9-5. He'll get his money left on his contract, take a couple month vacation, and land on his feet with some other organization.

The Reds? We'll be hoping sitting here, hoping. As always.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 01:47 AM
Hey, I don't have evidence that Bob didn't push Krivsky to make the trade with Washington either, maybe he did that too. Maybe Bob REALLY can't wait to get Bruce up here and is planning on hitting Griffey with a fungo bat in the eye during batting practice tomorrow.

Maybe Bob wants the Reds to suck, and this is all just a cover up. He's still secretly a Cardinals fan.

I'm sure that is the case. Walt and Bob will trade away Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Enarnacion, Bruce and others and bring in lots of old superstars who will project the Reds to three division titles, one World Series and then the club will die three years later. You heard it here first. :)

I've read over and over that Krivsky was committed to youth and was bringing the club along with patience in mind and it was only Evil Bob that was pushing him to "win now," Of course it was Casty that pushed him to bring up Homer last year and to initiate The Trade in 2006. It was also BobC who encouraged him to extend all those less than adequate players. Hogwash!

Most executives give their top generals the freedom to do their jobs and I think this was the case here. Trouble was, some of them didn't work out and Wayne got the ax. I have no love for any of the principals. Castellini gave Wayne a mission to make a winner. Instead, we got a club that kept getting worse. The future looked bright with all the minor league talent, but minor league talent is just a hope and a prayer that Krivsky didn't have a whole lot to do with. Put the blame on Castellini if you want, but the booing and lack of fannies in the seats had a lot more to do with wins and losses over the last 7-8 years. And it was getting worse. To place the balme on Castellini for this disaster tends to reak of overreaction. If this club is as good as some think, they wouldn't be 9-13. In fact, this club is the Keystone Kops of baseball. When that happens, with no improvement (and be honest, going from 80-82 in 2006 to 72-90 in 2007 and 9-12 up to Krivsky's firing in 2008) is not improvement. If it's your money, what do you do?

I know Reds44 was kidding, but it just goes along with what I'm reading tonight. The Anti-Christ has risen into power and all is lost. Maybe so, and I'll be the first to admit I was wrong, but it seems to me that we're seeing an executive who sees nothing much changing and one who made a move to make things better.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 01:54 AM
The outcrying of sympathy for Wayne Krivsky just doesn't make a lot of sense. Do I think he got fired prematurely? Yes. Would I have given him the rest of 2008? Yes. If Wayne Krivsky didn't want to get fired, don't go 72-90 last year. Don't ask your boss to cover up your mistakes by eating millons of dollars time after time after time. Don't fill up a quater of your payroll with dead weight. Don't clash with people you work with. Don't ignore what your advisors say, and then watch it blow up in your face. Don't be really, by all accounts, a complete jerk to deal with. In the end, baseball is still a job. When you don't get along with those you work with, you are going to clash with them. BCast isn't going to say negative things about Wayne's personality, but if you think it's all about winning you are sadly mistaken. Maybe Wayne could get away with being a complete you know what to the media and those within the organization if he was winning, but if you are losing, your act will get old real fast, and it did.

Don't feel bad for Wayne Krivsky. He's not a plant worker at GM working 9-5. He'll get his money left on his contract, take a couple month vacation, and land on his feet with some other organization.

The Reds? We'll be hoping sitting here, hoping. As always.
Excellent.

Paul Daugherty said tonight that he was always able to sit down with GM's and run an idea by them and get a feeling whether or not what he was thinking was right. It was not possible with Krivsky. He simply reufsed to even comment on that, even off the record. He had no people skills. As you say, we will still be hoping, but maybe the successful businessman made a good move for the betterment of the club. Time will tell.

Screwball
04-24-2008, 01:58 AM
If this club is as good as some think, they wouldn't be 9-13.


I actually think you make some excellent points, WVRF, but Cleveland's better than 8-12, Detroit's better than 9-13, the Padres are better than 9-12, the Diamondbacks aren't as good as 15-6, and the Cardinals aren't as good as 13-9 (all of these IMHO, of course) etc. etc.

I think this team is on the right track. Will they be winning an NL pennant this season? I suspect not. But will they be competitive? Well, let's put it this way - I very much believe in our starting pitching.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 02:02 AM
Krivsky inherited a rotation of Aaron Harang followed by guys like Dave Williams, Eric Milton, and Brandon Claussen. The bullpen consisted of guys like Danny Graves, Ryan Wagner, David Weathers, and Todd Coffey. Did people realistically expect Wayne Krivsky to come in and turn that mess around in two years? I would hope not. But he was sure getting close. The rotation has got from the aforementioned to what it is now: Harang/Cueto/Volquez/Arroyo/Belisle with Homer Bailey waiting in the wings. That is a huge improvement. One of his downfalls was the bullpen, but he seemed to be improving in that department with the addition of Cordero, cheap signing of Lincoln, and plucking Burton from the Rule-5 draft. Like I stated before, I didn't think he was a perfect GM - I didn't like that he stripped the offense down as much as he did, nor some of the signings of Stanton and Castro, but overall he did a solid job IMO and was still improving.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 02:04 AM
I actually think you make some excellent points, WVRF, but Cleveland's better than 8-12, Detroit's better than 9-13, the Padres are better than 9-12, the Diamondbacks aren't as good as 15-6, and the Cardinals aren't as good as 13-9 (all of these IMHO, of course) etc. etc.

I think this team is on the right track. Will they be winning an NL pennant this season? I suspect not. But will they be competitive? Well, let's put it this way - I very much believe in our starting pitching.

I hope you're right, but the W-L doesn't show it, adn in the end, isn't that all that matters. you can have the best team in the world, but if you lose 90, it doesn't matter one bit.

Screwball
04-24-2008, 02:14 AM
but the W-L doesn't show it, and in the end, isn't that all that matters.

Certainly. Hypothetical wins and talent-on-paper is great for message boards, but they need to get it done on the field.

Here's to hoping they maximize said talent. :beerme:

Caveat Emperor
04-24-2008, 08:00 AM
Certainly. Hypothetical wins and talent-on-paper is great for message boards, but they need to get it done on the field.

All things considered, I think winning is a lot easier when your problem is getting good players to play up to their talent levels as opposed to hoping bad players play over their talent levels.

jojo
04-24-2008, 08:19 AM
Well my thoughts on how FO's should be evolving have been pretty clear so I kind of see the Reds hiring of Jocketty as Poland buying more biplanes and horses in order to defend against the impending German blitzkrieg.... :cool:

RFS62
04-24-2008, 08:34 AM
Does anyone think Krivsky gets fired now if Jocketty was still employed by the Cardinals?

I don't.

nate
04-24-2008, 09:29 AM
I hope you're right, but the W-L doesn't show it, adn in the end, isn't that all that matters.

It is but is it sustainable?

I think Wayne was building the organization to "be good" within the next 3-5 years and have that "good" be sustainable with a reasonable budget by feeding the big club with a constant, steady stream of talent from the minors.

I think Bob wants to "win right now" and let next year take care of itself in the offseason.

I think Wayne should've _at least_ had until the end of his contract to see how it played out. Now we get to start another "X-year plan" with WJ.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 09:59 AM
Does anyone think Krivsky gets fired now if Jocketty was still employed by the Cardinals?

I don't.

I don't and after reviewing Castellini and his remarks and the way he has handled this. I think that Castellini needs to be replaced. I can't be sure that Castellini did not directly influence where this club is today, yet he fires others.

SunDeck
04-24-2008, 01:25 PM
It has taken me a while to finally answer this, but I'm saying no. I mean, I not surprised at all, except by the timing.

I think the ballclub is in a better position now than they were when Krivsky came on board. He made some moves that didn't pan out, but by and large, this is not the loser of a club they were three years ago and I believe he deserves credit for it.

I thought Castellini would have understood that this team could only contend this year if a lot of things came together and only if they came out smoking right away. So far, they haven't, but I don't think that diminishes the quality of the team Krivsky has been building. I think Jocketty was clearly the man, but at the same time I don't see how ousting Krivsky now as opposed to at the end of his contract makes a whole lot of difference.

princeton
04-24-2008, 01:42 PM
I think that the Red will put up more W's on the field, not so much because Jocketty is coming on board but just because they're getting to be a good team, and because some moves are pretty obvious and either GM would get to them. But the W's would have happened even without a GM change.

unfortunately, the W's will cause BCast to think that he acted correctly and knows what he's doing, and eventually he'll go all Peter Angelos on us. That's scary.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-24-2008, 01:44 PM
I think that the Red will put up more W's on the field, not so much because Jocketty is coming on board but just because they're getting to be a good team, and because some moves are pretty obvious and either GM would get to them. But the W's would have happened even without a GM change.

I think you are dead on here.

Rojo
04-24-2008, 02:58 PM
unfortunately, the W's will cause BCast to think that he acted correctly and knows what he's doing, and eventually he'll go all Peter Angelos on us. That's scary.


We must have the same tea leaves.

Jpup
04-24-2008, 03:15 PM
Kind of ironic that he started collecting those unfinished contracts on the player side.

To answer the question, I am happy. I don't think he had the goods to run an organization top to bottom. He was solid in some areas, awful in others. Watching him try and assemble a bullpen was comical at best. He had some good acquisitions, but that isn't the end of it for a GM. There is a lot of other aspects of a team to worry about.

I think it's different for players in any sport than it is for front office personnel.

Wheelhouse
04-25-2008, 03:57 PM
Thats just one part of it..... Jocketty has not shown he has the ability to succeed as a GM unless he has a huge payroll.

Au contraire. The Cards had a middle of the road payroll until they started winning under Jocketty. It rose over time.

Wheelhouse
04-25-2008, 04:00 PM
I think you are dead on here.

I disagree. Wayne's weakness was that he was not able to fill needs as they became apparent during the season. I'm not so sure he would have been able to make the necessary moves to win.

REDREAD
04-25-2008, 04:08 PM
It's like Redread bought the Reds


Yep, and I'm loving every minute of it.

Bring us a winner Cast. :thumbup:

REDREAD
04-25-2008, 04:15 PM
:lol:

This is becoming comical. Let's just keep saying things with zero evidence to back any of it up. For the record, on Reds Live today Krivsky said he was "looking forward to working with Dusty" and "highly recommended him" to BCast.

Yeah, but he was forced upon him.

Yep, all the good stuff this year is credited to Wayne.

The bad stuff is blamed on Dusty or Cast.. Why didn't Dusty refuse to take Fogg north? Why didn't Dusty insist on Homer and Bruce on opening day? Why did Dusty bring in Patterson and the other bad guys this year?

IMO, the buck stops at Wayne for all the good and bad stuff that happened under his watch.

REDREAD
04-25-2008, 04:17 PM
Do you have any evidence to prove Bob didn't push for Krivsky to call him up? As impatient as Castellini is, my money is on him being the reason Homer was prematurely called up.

Then it's the GM's job to say no to Cast, and explain that Homer isn't ready.

But then again, someone else tried to blame Stanton and the bad contracts on Cast "because he approved them"

It doesn't matter if Cast screamed for Homer. All Wayne had to do was convince him that it was premature and wouldn't help the W-L record. That's part of the GM's job.

REDREAD
04-25-2008, 04:24 PM
Does anyone think Krivsky gets fired now if Jocketty was still employed by the Cardinals?

I don't.

Maybe it delays the firing until the end of the year, but I doubt it.
Cast would've probably brought in another GM-in-waiting if Walt was not available. In hindsight, it was obvious Wayne was on thin ice at that time.

I actually think it was smart of Cast to bring in Walt early so he could get up to speed and thus the eventual firing of Wayne would be less disruptive. Not to mention, it was nice of Cast to give Wayne one more offseason to show what he could do.

REDREAD
04-25-2008, 04:26 PM
I think that the Red will put up more W's on the field, not so much because Jocketty is coming on board but just because they're getting to be a good team, and because some moves are pretty obvious and either GM would get to them. But the W's would have happened even without a GM change.

unfortunately, the W's will cause BCast to think that he acted correctly and knows what he's doing, and eventually he'll go all Peter Angelos on us. That's scary.

Or maybe Cast will see that Jocketty works better as a manager of people.

If Wayne was truly a bad people person, there's immediate dividends to be gained by removing him. Morale may have shot up tremendously in the front office, despite people outside the organization mourning Wayne's loss.