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View Full Version : WK Fired: Bad Timing?



RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 02:42 PM
What does mean? Seriously, I don't understand the point inferred by this statement, yet it's ubiquitous.

Why is firing Wayne now bad timing? What about firing him now is particularly worse for the organization than firing him in July or November?

I suppose one could look back and suggest that he should have been fired earlier, before he committed money to Fogg and Patterson. But you could carry that argument back as far as you wanted, with no logical stopping point. I don't think that sort of retrospective is fair.

Perhaps I'm wrong, the but the general gist of the comment seems to be that, if the Reds had made the decision to fire him, that they should have waited? The only questions that seem relevant to me are

1.) What additional harm is done by the timing of this decision?
2.) When would the time timing have been good?

Cyclone792
04-23-2008, 02:45 PM
I think his firing has less to do with baseball reasons and more to do with "other" reasons. And if that's at least partially correct, then it's good to cleanse the organization of those "other" reasons rather than letting them continually build up.

Too many subtle hints are out there, and I just don't think "not winning" is a valid excuse 21 games into a season; the Reds are 9-12, not 4-17 or something. Something else was going on that triggered the boss.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 02:46 PM
If they were gonna fire him then I'm glad to see them do it now rather than wait until after the draft and trade deadline.

WMR
04-23-2008, 02:47 PM
What I would give to know "the whole story" about all of this.

BRM
04-23-2008, 02:48 PM
I don't think "not winning" only refers to 2008.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 02:49 PM
It's only bad timing because it could have been done in the off-season when a different GM could have addressed the glaring catching problem and the known redundancies of players that ended up on the made the 25 man roster. The issues that are a problem now where there during the entire off-season.

Cyclone792
04-23-2008, 02:51 PM
I don't think "not winning" only refers to 2008.

If that was the case then the boss should have - and I think would have - canned Krivsky last fall.

Cast will come out and say in two dozen different ways in the presser today that it's a move made because the Reds weren't winning - and it will help keep the ugliness under the rug for the time being - but just think about it: turn two losses into wins and the Reds are 11-10.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 02:56 PM
turn two losses into wins and the Reds are 11-10.... and the fact that the Reds bench and catching situation is a disaster would still be glaringly obvious

HokieRed
04-23-2008, 02:57 PM
There's a saying about retirement that as soon as you begin thinking about it you might as well go ahead and do it because you already have. By the same logic, I consider WK to have been fired on the day Walt Jocketty was hired.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 03:01 PM
What does mean? Seriously, I don't understand the point inferred by this statement, yet it's ubiquitous.

Why is firing Wayne now bad timing? What

In my opinion, as soon as Cast has made up his mind, the sooner he axed Wayne, the better.

My guess is that Wayne knew he was on thin ice this offseason. Cast probably laid it on the line, that he had better show progress towards making a winning team.

I think we have to question Wayne's ability to build a winning team, period.
Wayne recognized we needed a closer, but then spent the bulk of his effort on starting pitching while ignoring the rest of the roster.
He had a bunch of dead weight on this roster and did not move any of it, figuring that Cast would bail him out.

I would've preferred Wayne to get a bit creative. Someone suggested trading one of our albotrosses for Wes Helms. That would've been a good move to make. Would've liked to see Wayne move Freel for another below average player that at least was potentially useful.

nate
04-23-2008, 03:09 PM
I say the timing is strange because it seems like a new GM would have more opportunity to shape the organization during the offseason.

bucksfan2
04-23-2008, 03:16 PM
What does mean? Seriously, I don't understand the point inferred by this statement, yet it's ubiquitous.

Why is firing Wayne now bad timing? What about firing him now is particularly worse for the organization than firing him in July or November?

I suppose one could look back and suggest that he should have been fired earlier, before he committed money to Fogg and Patterson. But you could carry that argument back as far as you wanted, with no logical stopping point. I don't think that sort of retrospective is fair.

Perhaps I'm wrong, the but the general gist of the comment seems to be that, if the Reds had made the decision to fire him, that they should have waited? The only questions that seem relevant to me are

1.) What additional harm is done by the timing of this decision?
2.) When would the time timing have been good?

Wasn't Patterson invited to spring training as a non roster? I would assume that part of the deal he signed was that if he made the team he would make $3M a year but I think Patterson is more a Dusty move than anything. As for Fogg, if he can stay on this team the entier year and pitch to his norm then he is worth the $1M he signed for.

I neither like the decision as a whole nor the timing of the decision. I think Bob wants a winner, which I do as well, but I think he is going about it the wrong way. The time to buy yourself a winner has come and gone. Even the Yankees have decided that you need to build from within in order build a champion. I think when you look at teams shelling out long term contracts to players who have a year or two of success under their belt you have to be extra cautious in the FA market. I would imagine that down the road contrats that Longoria got will become more common place.

I really wonder how Jocketty is going to come in and fix the Reds biggest problem, the outfield. What is he going to do, both Dunn and Jr have veto power and the CF position is up for grabs with both Freel and Patterson out of options. Maybe the time for Bruce to come up is now but his left handed bat may not be what this team needs. The infield is set with EE, Keppy, Phillips, and Votto. The pen has been fairly good so far this season and the only pitching position up for grabs is the 5th slot.

One of the current problems with this team is the lack of wiggle room with the roster. Where do you add the bat? How do you add that bat? How are you going to change the makeup of this team when in reality the guys you would need to move in order to do so you cant.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 03:17 PM
Given how often I've seen the comment, I'm a bit surprised to not see those defending it. I think all of us find the timing unusual, but I've seen the word bad or poor used explicitly at least a dozen times. Setting aside the weirdness of the timing, what makes the timing particularly "bad"? And given that, when is the ideal time to fire a GM?

My answer is that the worst timing would be in July for a team in the playoff hunt, as the new GM would not have sufficient time to build the relationships or scout the system necessary to set up the team for the stretch run. Late April timing is curious, but not particularly harmful, in my mind.

My answer for the best time? As soon as you know you want to.

It seems the real complaint isn't that firing him now hurts the Reds moving forward in some particular way. Rather, it's that if he was on the way out, why didn't Castellini do it sooner? Is that accurate?

membengal
04-23-2008, 03:21 PM
Rmr, I think that last part is how I have been interpreting the complaints on timing. As in, why wasn't WK gone before this last off-season if that was the way they were eventually going to go.

princeton
04-23-2008, 03:24 PM
unless the scouts abscond, then it's a good time to do the firing if it was going to happen anyway. Let Jocketty figure out next year's OF.

great question: would Jocketty have hired Baker?

nate
04-23-2008, 03:38 PM
It seems the real complaint isn't that firing him now hurts the Reds moving forward in some particular way. Rather, it's that if he was on the way out, why didn't Castellini do it sooner? Is that accurate?

For me, yes. Especially WRT the draft.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 03:58 PM
unless the scouts abscond, then it's a good time to do the firing if it was going to happen anyway. Let Jocketty figure out next year's OF.

great question: would Jocketty have hired Baker?


Depends. I'm guessing if Wayne was fired during last off season and Walt was hired, our pitchers would be batting 8th.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 04:10 PM
Depends. I'm guessing if Wayne was fired during last off season and Walt was hired, our pitchers would be batting 8th.

A main reason Jocketty left the Cardinals is because he wasn't on the same page as the rest of the organization when it came to the more sabermetric approach. I don't think we need to be worried about him switching up things from Krivksy too much.

WebScorpion
04-23-2008, 04:16 PM
Instead of firing him and eating another contract, couldn't we have traded him for a decent secretary and a couple of minor league GMs or something? I mean, the dude had some value...somebody's gonna get a good talent evaluator really cheap. :p:

IslandRed
04-23-2008, 04:18 PM
To me, it's not BAD timing, it's just WEIRD timing.

We don't know the whole story here, but unless something specifically happened in the last few weeks, it seems most plausible that the slow start is cover for a move Castellini wanted to make anyway, and everything else is just rationalizing for others' benefit.

Cyclone792
04-23-2008, 04:24 PM
To me, it's not BAD timing, it's just WEIRD timing.

We don't know the whole story here, but unless something specifically happened in the last few weeks, it seems most plausible that the slow start is cover for a move Castellini wanted to make anyway, and everything else is just rationalizing for others' benefit.

This is my take too.

Jocketty or no Jocketty, bad contracts or no bad contracts, I think it's something deeper than baseball related reasons. April is a very peculiar month to fire a team's general manager, especially when 87 percent of the season hasn't been played yet.

jojo
04-23-2008, 04:28 PM
If they were gonna fire him then I'm glad to see them do it now rather than wait until after the draft and trade deadline.

The time to fire him would've been when there was still plenty of time for a new GM/staff to make their own board.

This is lousy timing given the upcoming draft unless Jocketty and Krivsky are in philosophical agreement. If that's the case though, you have to wonder why fire Krivsky in the first place.

If in Bob C's view, Krivsky's vision/ability isn't cutting it, why in the world would he have allowed Krivvsky to influence another draft?

Topcat
04-23-2008, 04:38 PM
Just read this and was shocked, seriously wow. Jocketty will do an excellent job , but I am extremely fearful of the quick fix attitude. when a team has gone as long as our Red's have and we see the kids coming thru the pipeline giving us hope. I am worried and excited by this move. Wayne K I salute what you did as Red's GM godspeed and know you will find work again.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 04:49 PM
The time to fire him would've been when there was still plenty of time for a new GM/staff to make their own board.

This is lousy timing given the upcoming draft unless Jocketty and Krivsky are in philosophical agreement. If that's the case though, you have to wonder why fire Krivsky in the first place.

If in Bob C's view, Krivsky's vision/ability isn't cutting it, why in the world would he have allowed Krivvsky to influence another draft?

What we do know about WK and WJ's baseball philosophies suggests all the more that personality and management style played a larger role than is being suggested.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 05:55 PM
What we do know about WK and WJ's baseball philosophies suggests all the more that personality and management style played a larger role than is being suggested.

I think it was the main role.

I can't imagine many moves on which Wayne and Walt would have agreed, and as the "special advisor to the owner" or whatever Walt's fluff title was prior to today, I have a feeling Walt was firmly in Cast's ear 2nd guessing every Wayne move.

Cast only needed to hear so much "I wouldn't have done that" from Walt concerning Wayne. Cast had had enough, so exit Wayne, enter Walt.

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 07:00 PM
What we do know about WK and WJ's baseball philosophies suggests all the more that personality and management style played a larger role than is being suggested.

I'd wager to guess this was the main and perhaps only reason. Seems to me DanO got the boot after a "meeting" with BCast.

My guess is Wayne and BCast got together for a normal meeting, BCast started getting frustrated with the direction the conversation was going, perhaps things got heated (or perhaps not). Either way, it went from being a normal conversation to Wayne trying to explain why he shouldn't be fired. Apparently he didn't give a good enough reason.

It actually happens quite often where a manager is really on the bubble about letting someone go, but the final conversation is the straw that breaks the camels back. Doesn't hurt that this particular manager happened to have Wayne's replacement waiting in the wings.

SMcGavin
04-23-2008, 07:08 PM
The time to fire him would've been when there was still plenty of time for a new GM/staff to make their own board.

This is lousy timing given the upcoming draft unless Jocketty and Krivsky are in philosophical agreement. If that's the case though, you have to wonder why fire Krivsky in the first place.

If in Bob C's view, Krivsky's vision/ability isn't cutting it, why in the world would he have allowed Krivvsky to influence another draft?

That's why I think it was bad timing too. In the offseason (either last offseason or this coming one) Jocketty would have time to get his people in place. Now his choices are either to either keep Wayne's people for the season, or do a bunch of personnel changes mid-season. As jojo nicely put it, unless Krivsky/Jocketty are in philosphical agreement neither of those options is an ideal one.

princeton
04-23-2008, 07:18 PM
The time to fire him would've been when there was still plenty of time for a new GM/staff to make their own board.



agreed.

also, if I was very good at my job and working for the Reds, I'd be looking to move to a more stable place. Unpredictable owners are bad news for the highly competent.

but if I'm incompetent, I'd probably be happy that I found the right place.

reds44
04-23-2008, 07:21 PM
So now the clock begins to tick on Dusty Baker (already), because he isn't a "Walt guy".

Reds4Life
04-23-2008, 07:27 PM
So now the clock begins to tick on Dusty Baker (already), because he isn't a "Walt guy".

He's a Castilini guy, which is more important than being a Walt guy. I think Krivsky had little to nothing to do with hiring Baker in the first place.

I do think if this would have happened in the offseason that LaRussa would be in the dugout tonight for the Reds.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 07:36 PM
This is bad timing because this is Krivsky's roster. There were about 40 guys that had a shot at the 25 man in Spring Training. Jocketty likely would have brought a much different group north from Sarasota. If Jocketty is the best man for the job, he should have been given the opportunity to hand pick the roster out of spring...

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 07:37 PM
agreed.

also, if I was very good at my job and working for the Reds, I'd be looking to move to a more stable place. Unpredictable owners are bad news for the highly competent.

but if I'm incompetent, I'd probably be happy that I found the right place.

Is any baseball organization truly stable? Not really. Any of the guys that survived the ownership change aren't likely to be that worried.
From their point of view, just one layer of management got removed.

They aren't likely to quit midseason. Who is hiring now? They might as well be good soldiers and ride this season out. Bailing right before the draft without a good reason isn't going to earn them points in their next interview.

In any event, it's no crisis if a few more scouts leave. Wayne already chased away the best ones.

princeton
04-23-2008, 07:40 PM
Wayne already chased away the best ones.


your understanding of the situation would cause molecules to cease all movement.

jojo
04-23-2008, 09:45 PM
He's a Castilini guy, which is more important than being a Walt guy. I think Krivsky had little to nothing to do with hiring Baker in the first place.

I do think if this would have happened in the offseason that LaRussa would be in the dugout tonight for the Reds.

Krivski was a Castilini guy too.....

WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 10:05 PM
Interesting discussion.

Did anyone consider that baseball had to play some part in it? Krivsky brings in Fogg, and that's a disaster. He spends $3 million on Patterson, and that hasn't worked out. Maybe Castellini looked at the past two years--The Trade, Stanton, Castro, etc. and just couldn't take it anymore. Maybe he looked at a first base situation where an aging lefty with little pop is backing up a young lefty and wondered why. Maybe he had discussions with Krivsky and Krivsky wouldn't budge from his philosophy enough for Bob's tastes?

Like others, it probably was a management issue. We've heard the stories about how bull-headed Wayne was. Maybe not talking to Dusty about getting Fogg or the terrible bench on this club had somethig to do with it. I'm sure Casty has contacts in other organizations and many of them told him a putz Wayne was.

Wrap it all together and Castellini's management style was to make a change. Like I said in another thread, why wait for 6 months to do what you are going to do anyway? As for the draft, it's the same staff, who do most of the work anyway. And just maybe Walt can make some magic in the meantime without it including moves that he didn't like.

No matter. We will survive.

jojo
04-23-2008, 10:09 PM
Interesting discussion.

Did anyone consider that baseball had to play some part in it? Krivsky brings in Fogg, and that's a disaster. He spends $3 million on Patterson, and that hasn't worked out.

It's way too early to conclude either Fogg or Patterson haven't worked out.

Lets face it. Bob C is way too inarticulate to have Krivsky as his voice. It was doomed from the start.....

vaticanplum
04-23-2008, 10:15 PM
This is bad timing because this is Krivsky's roster. There were about 40 guys that had a shot at the 25 man in Spring Training. Jocketty likely would have brought a much different group north from Sarasota. If Jocketty is the best man for the job, he should have been given the opportunity to hand pick the roster out of spring...

That's a fantastic point. You hate to waste a year if a team is truly bad, but now if the team ends up being bad, Jocketty gets the blame for a team he had nothing to do with and Krivsky is denied the opportunity to improve the team he picked. If the team by some miracle ends up being good, Jocketty gets the credit for a team he had nothing to do with and Krivsky ends with a 9-12 record.

WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 10:24 PM
Looked like Jocketty was reading text messages on his Razr on TV just now.

I look for a deal in the next 48 hours of some sort. The boss has put everyone on notice. Win or else. This team is not constructed to win unfortunately. We have improved starting pitching while Arroyo and Fogg/Belisle are horrible. We have a horrible bench and catching situation. I think moves will be made. It may include Griffey, but it may also be Hatteberg, Freel, Hopper, Patterson, and even Arroyo. It might be wise to stay tuned.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:27 PM
Looked like Jocketty was reading text messages on his Razr on TV just now.

I look for a deal in the next 48 hours of some sort. The boss has put everyone on notice. Win or else. This team is not constructed to win unfortunately. We have improved starting pitching while Arroyo and Fogg/Belisle are horrible. We have a horrible bench and catching situation. I think moves will be made. It may include Griffey, but it may also be Hatteberg, Freel, Hopper, Patterson, and even Arroyo. It might be wise to stay tuned.
If there as anybody that has two feet to stand on with BCast, it's Jocketty. I think if anybody has a chance to get the old man to relax, it's the guy we have now. If he can't do it, then watch out.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:27 PM
In any event, it's no crisis if a few more scouts leave. Wayne already chased away the best ones.

I don't know where in the hell you're getting that from -- the Reds have done VERY nicely in the last two drafts and have some good talent moving up the pipeline as a result.

The scouting department is also responsible, more than likely, for targets acquired in trades. A scout told Wayne "see if you can pry that Thompson kid loose from Washington as a throw in" or "if you're going to deal with the Rangers, insist on Volquez, he's turned the corner."