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View Full Version : Jocketty in.. who goes now?



REDREAD
04-23-2008, 03:03 PM
Who do you think Jocketty is likely to trade or get rid of off the current team in the near term (let's say within a year). Doesn't necessarily have to be dead weight players, it could be someone that doesn't fit in Jocketty's plan which is traded for value.

My guesses:

Belisle
Freel
Valentine
Homer
Maj (released)


I think Patterson is extended if he has an ok year. I don't know about Dunn/Jr..

Benihana
04-23-2008, 03:16 PM
My take:

Freel
Hopper
Valentin
Hatteberg
Gonzalez (once he gets healthy)
Ross
Majewski
Bailey
Maloney
Stubbs
Francisco

I think that Dunn will be re-signed, and we will see a host of prospects (Bailey, Maloney, Stubbs and/or Francisco) traded for a right-handed bat. Hopefully that means Matt Kemp or Wladimir Balentien, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a more veteran player. If I were him, I'd ask the O's if they were interested in a Homer Bailey-Adam Jones swap.

I think that Jocketty will prefer Bako as his everyday catcher (as would I) because he likes defensive-minded catchers (see Mike Matheny.) He may even go acquire another defensive-minded catcher. I think Ross and Valentin are on borrowed time (and I'm not sad about that at all.)

I really hope that Jocketty doesn't move Votto or Encarnacion, although I'm worried that he might. I don't think he'll mess with Cueto, Volquez, Keppinger or Bruce, and I'd assume that Phillips and Harang are off-limits. Just about anyone else is fair game though. I also wouldn't be surprised if Walt starts plucking Cardinals a la Krivksy with ex-Twins and Bowden with ex-Reds. (Anthony Reyes anyone?) Guys obviously have a knowledge of the systems they came from.

Will M
04-23-2008, 03:32 PM
Freel has negative trade value.

Hopper is fine as a 5th outfielder and makes close to the minimum.

WK wasted $1.8M when he exercised Javy's option. Javy can't catch & his bat is in big decline. I doubt we can get anything for him.

Hat's option was fine to pick up and trade him for value. WK didn't do this. With Votto and Hat both hitting lefty and both playing 1B Hat needs to go.
I would think a team with a RH first baseman could use Hat off the bench.

Gonzalez is a perfectly servicable major league SS defensively and offensively.
Also Gonzo at SS with Kep at 3B is much better defensively than Kep at SS and EE at 3B.

Ross is fine as a backup catcher. IF ( big IF ) we found a young catcher either Bako or Ross would be fine as a backup. I like Bako's hot streak but don't expect it to continue.

Majewski - just release him already.

Bailey, Maloney, Stubbs, Francisco, etc - any trades involving minor leaguers are pretty much speculation.

I personally hope Walt hits the phones and sends Jr and Dunn packing.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 03:35 PM
I personally hope Walt hits the phones and sends Jr and Dunn packing.

I think you'll see Dunn re-signed in the next couple months.

bucksfan2
04-23-2008, 03:36 PM
Just my take but I think we see Bailey here before we see him traded. I wouldn't be suprised if the Reds tried to get Bailey on schedule to take the #5 slot within the next few starts. I also hope that Stubbs stays on for a little longer. They guy is finally starting to hit and play at a high level. He may be older but I would assume that Jocketty will move him along faster to see if he can handle the jump.

I would assume that Jocketty has already evaluated the talent on the major league level. I would think that he needs to better evaluate the talent on the minor league level until he makes a deal.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 03:36 PM
Gonzalez is a perfectly servicable major league SS defensively but not offensively. fixed

with the Reds having a FB high-K pitching staff there is no compelling reason to move Keppinger off of SS.

seeing as Dunn/Jr can effectively block any trade I doubt either will be moved, certainly not anytime soon.

GoReds
04-23-2008, 03:37 PM
If the Reds re-sign Dunn, then Votto has to go. I love what the guy is capable of, but the fact is that Dunn is better suited to play 1B, not OF. The goal has to be to put the players in their best positions and they aren't even close now.

Griffey will not be re-signed and the Reds will look for a quality RH bat (preferably a LF'er or a 3B, depending on what they decide to do with Edwin) and will be willing to pay bucks to get that bat with Griffey off the books. Votto would be a good start to a package that will land a good bat.

Freel, CPatt, Maj, Mercker and Coffey are all likely to be gone either during the year or shortly thereafter.

Aronchis
04-23-2008, 03:40 PM
If the Reds re-sign Dunn, then Votto has to go. I love what the guy is capable of, but the fact is that Dunn is better suited to play 1B, not OF. The goal has to be to put the players in their best positions and they aren't even close now.

Griffey will not be re-signed and the Reds will look for a quality RH bat (preferably a LF'er or a 3B, depending on what they decide to do with Edwin) and will be willing to pay bucks to get that bat with Griffey off the books. Votto would be a good start to a package that will land a good bat.

Freel, CPatt, Maj, Mercker and Coffey are all likely to be gone either during the year or shortly thereafter.

Dunn isn't better suited to play 1st. Dunn is best suited to play DH.

Will M
04-23-2008, 03:43 PM
.793 was Gonzo's OPS at SS last year. This makes him a capable shortstop offensively.

Kep has been great. IF we got rid of our two DHs and EE quit making so many errors then I would be fine with Kep at SS even with his lower than average range. However right now the Reds defense is terrible.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 03:44 PM
I'd be more worried about the scouts and advisors I'm going to lose than the players.

Kc61
04-23-2008, 03:44 PM
Speculation --

Of Dunn, Phillips and Griffey, two will be moved. Or all three.

Jocketty's middle order hitters with the Cards were guys like Pujois, Edmonds, Rolen. The Reds guys are more "feast or famine" type hitters compared to these Cards guys. My guess is that Jocketty would prefer a different offensive core.

There is also a looming problem finding room for Keppinger. He is a fine offensive player. If second base were open, it would fit Kepp just fine.

Just a wild guess, but I think we are looking at significant changes in the offensive structure of this team. And I'm not talking about the peripheral offensive hitters, I mean the meat of the order guys.

Will M
04-23-2008, 03:49 PM
Speculation --

Of Dunn, Phillips and Griffey, two will be moved. Or all three.

Jocketty's middle order hitters with the Cards were guys like Pujois, Edmonds, Rolen. The Reds guys are more "feast or famine" type hitters compared to these Cards guys. My guess is that Jocketty would prefer a different offensive core.

There is also a looming problem finding room for Keppinger. He is a fine offensive player. If second base were open, it would fit Kepp just fine.

Just a wild guess, but I think we are looking at significant changes in the offensive structure of this team. And I'm not talking about the peripheral offensive hitters, I mean the meat of the order guys.

CF ?
3B Kep
1B Votto (L)
LF EE
RF Bruce (L)
2B Phillips
C ?
SS Gonzo

Dunn, Jr, Hat, and everyone except Homer are trade bait for a catcher & centerfielder who can play good/great defense and hit a little.
Homer can be traded for one of these if it is a stud/stud prospect.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 03:49 PM
Speculation --

Of Dunn, Phillips and Griffey, two will be moved. Or all three.

Jocketty's middle order hitters with the Cards were guys like Pujois, Edmonds, Rolen. The Reds guys are more "feast or famine" type hitters compared to these Cards guys. My guess is that Jocketty would prefer a different offensive core.

There is also a looming problem finding room for Keppinger. He is a fine offensive player. If second base were open, it would fit Kepp just fine.

Just a wild guess, but I think we are looking at significant changes in the offensive structure of this team. And I'm not talking about the peripheral offensive hitters, I mean the meat of the order guys.

Brandon Phillips isn't going anywhere. He just signed a big extension (which Castellini signed off on) and I believe the Reds are geared towards making him the face of the franchise. I believe that at this point he is the last position player on the team that you will see traded.

He may not be in the "meat of the order" but he will surely be in the lineup for some time to come, and that's ok in my book.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 03:51 PM
Just my take but I think we see Bailey here before we see him traded. I wouldn't be suprised if the Reds tried to get Bailey on schedule to take the #5 slot within the next few starts. I also hope that Stubbs stays on for a little longer. They guy is finally starting to hit and play at a high level. He may be older but I would assume that Jocketty will move him along faster to see if he can handle the jump.

I would assume that Jocketty has already evaluated the talent on the major league level. I would think that he needs to better evaluate the talent on the minor league level until he makes a deal.

Good point. Boy do I wish Stubbs could just be ready to contribue now, he would solve so many problems for this team- a right-handed hitting defensive CF is exactly what this team needs. It's too bad he's in Sarasota.

Even though he wouldn't have been able to contribute to this point, Mike Cameron was probably exactly what this team needed. Oh well.

Will M
04-23-2008, 03:52 PM
Brandon Phillips isn't going anywhere. He just signed a big extension (which Castellini signed off on) and I believe the Reds are geared towards making him the face of the franchise. I believe that at this point he is the last position player on the team that you will see traded.

He may not be in the "meat of the order" but he will surely be in the lineup for some time to come, and that's ok in my book.

I like Phillips at 6th or 7th in the order. He has some power but is OBP challenged. His speed would help create some runs lower in the lineup.

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 03:52 PM
I'd assume Freel, Coffey and Javy are on borrowed time. Not only are they not usefull assets, they represent the past. Might not get much for them, but I'd guess they will be shopped hard.

Fogg and Majewski are likely to be released.

I can see Bailey, Stubbs, Thompson or Maloney being packed with one of the above as part of a deal.

This is not to say that EE, Votto or one of the other various "kids" wouldn't be moved, but I think the other folks are more likely targets when shopping for other young, prospects.

Now, if you are talking trading for a big stud or high-level uber prospect, that's a whole different ballgame. Then Dunn, EE, Votto, Burton, Bray, McBeth and maybe even Phillips could be gone.

bucksfan2
04-23-2008, 03:53 PM
Speculation --

Of Dunn, Phillips and Griffey, two will be moved. Or all three.

Jocketty's middle order hitters with the Cards were guys like Pujois, Edmonds, Rolen. The Reds guys are more "feast or famine" type hitters compared to these Cards guys. My guess is that Jocketty would prefer a different offensive core.

There is also a looming problem finding room for Keppinger. He is a fine offensive player. If second base were open, it would fit Kepp just fine.

Just a wild guess, but I think we are looking at significant changes in the offensive structure of this team. And I'm not talking about the peripheral offensive hitters, I mean the meat of the order guys.

Thats like saying Theo Epstein likes middle of the order hitters like Manny and Big Papi. I am sure there isn't one team in the league who wouldh't have wanted Pujols in the 3 hole or Rollen in his prime in the 5 hole. But that always isn't possible. You make the best out of the roster you have.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 03:55 PM
.793 was Gonzo's OPS at SS last year. This makes him a capable shortstop offensively. and it was just one season, one in which he was below average with the glove. I would say the real Gonzo is better defensively than the 07 version and a lot worse offensively(his career OPS is 695)

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 03:55 PM
Hat's option was fine to pick up and trade him for value. WK didn't do this.


I think the premise that Hat could be flipped for value was wrong.
The owners decided that they were going to tighten up spending on marginal players this year. Let's face it, not many teams can afford the luxury of an old, 2 million dollar pinch hitter that can only play 1b. Most teams already have a bat on the bench that is a defensive liability. Hat is probably tradable, but not for anything worthwhile. In the end, it's not a good use of resources to spend 2 million on Hat. It would've been better to put that money towards another player that could've helped us more.. As Edabbs says, if you take Freel+ Hat+Castro+Fogg+Stanton+etc suddenly you have money to get an impact player.

Wayne should've made the commitment to sink or swim with Votto. IMO, Hat is not a bargain by any means.





Gonzalez is a perfectly servicable major league SS defensively and offensively.
Also Gonzo at SS with Kep at 3B is much better defensively than Kep at SS and EE at 3B.


I disagree with this. Gonzo is declining fast and hard, which was to be expected. He had a bad year last year. The only contribution he made was the occasional HR. Defense was awful. I think we'd have a hard time giving Gonzo away. Any team playing a horrible SS isn't going to see Gonzo as much of an upgrade (or is going to be rebuliding and not want to mess with Gonzo).







I personally hope Walt hits the phones and sends Jr and Dunn packing.

That would be a ballsy move, but both have no trade clauses which complicates things.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 03:57 PM
I'd be more worried about the scouts and advisors I'm going to lose than the players.

Wayne already drove away a lot of them.
Not worried that we might lose some of Wayne's "yes" men.
Hopefully Jocketty still has his list of good scouts.
Didn't someone say on this board years ago that the Cards probably had the best advance scouts in the game? They certainly did a good job in evaluating talent in trades as well.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 03:58 PM
I think the premise that Hat could be flipped for value was wrong.exactly. As a 1b Hatty had no value because on his best day he is nothing more than a below average glove, with an OK bat as part of a platoon.

If the Reds were going to go with Votto(which seems obvious), then his option should not have been picked up.

Kc61
04-23-2008, 03:58 PM
Thats like saying Theo Epstein likes middle of the order hitters like Manny and Big Papi. I am sure there isn't one team in the league who wouldh't have wanted Pujols in the 3 hole or Rollen in his prime in the 5 hole. But that always isn't possible. You make the best out of the roster you have.

I don't think Jocketty is in there to "make the best of the roster he has." And if the Reds aspire to be a winning team they are going to need some top hitters.

If you were Castellini, given the results of this team, would you tie up $60 to 75 million on Dunn? If you were Jocketty, would you be want Phillips as your clean up guy or a better all around hitter? Not sure the answer is as obvious as your post indicates.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 04:01 PM
WK assembled a bunch of stuff bought at the garage sale(Gonzo, Valentin, Castro, Stanton, Freel, Coffey, Patterson, Hatty, etc) that he ended up being stuck with and having no way to get rid of without eating the contract.

Will M
04-23-2008, 04:02 PM
I think the premise that Hat could be flipped for value was wrong.
The owners decided that they were going to tighten up spending on marginal players this year. Let's face it, not many teams can afford the luxury of an old, 2 million dollar pinch hitter that can only play 1b. Most teams already have a bat on the bench that is a defensive liability. Hat is probably tradable, but not for anything worthwhile. In the end, it's not a good use of resources to spend 2 million on Hat. It would've been better to put that money towards another player that could've helped us more.. As Edabbs says, if you take Freel+ Hat+Castro+Fogg+Stanton+etc suddenly you have money to get an impact player.

Wayne should've made the commitment to sink or swim with Votto. IMO, Hat is not a bargain by any means.





I disagree with this. Gonzo is declining fast and hard, which was to be expected. He had a bad year last year. The only contribution he made was the occasional HR. Defense was awful. I think we'd have a hard time giving Gonzo away. Any team playing a horrible SS isn't going to see Gonzo as much of an upgrade (or is going to be rebuliding and not want to mess with Gonzo).







That would be a ballsy move, but both have no trade clauses which complicates things.

1. You could be right about Hat. If so WK 'read the tea leaves' wrong and flushed Bob's cash down the toilet. WK did flush a lot of Bob's cash down the toilet which I think was why he got fired ( along with his poor people skills ).

2. I think I am the only guy here who thinks Gonzo is ok

3. Dunn's no trade clause expires in June.
I know Jr has a full no trade clause. He could still be traded - ie he is told to accept a trade to a decent AL team and be an OF/DH or he can stay here and spot start, pinch hit & hold Jay Bruce's jock.

bucksfan2
04-23-2008, 04:04 PM
I don't think Jocketty is in there to "make the best of the roster he has." And if the Reds aspire to be a winning team they are going to need some top hitters.

If you were Castellini, given the results of this team, would you tie up $60 to 75 million on Dunn? If you were Jocketty, would you be want Phillips as your clean up guy or a better all around hitter? Not sure the answer is as obvious as your post indicates.

Is Phillips the ideal clean up hitter? No. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a tremendous amount of value to the reds. Heck within the year Bruce may come up and become the teams cleanup hitter. I just was reacting to the point that you said because Jocketty had Pujols, Edmonds, and Rollen in the middle of the order Jocketty is going to have that type of order as the reds gm.

I really think it is interesting to see what the reds do with Dunn. If I were the gm I would lean towards getting anything out of him that you can. The only way I would bring him back would be as a 1b and I would move Votto to LF. But at the same time >$60M invested in Dunn is a whole lot of money to pay a guy who truely is a 2 hole hitter.

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 04:05 PM
Jocketty in.. who goes now?

Who do you think Jocketty is likely to trade or get rid of off the current team in the near term (let's say within a year). Doesn't necessarily have to be dead weight players, it could be someone that doesn't fit in Jocketty's plan which is traded for value.

Within a year, between now and next spring training.

“Jockerty is likely to trade or get rid of off the current team”

I should say subject to be moved or upgraded.
Patterson
Hopper
Freel
Encarcion
Valetin
Ross
Gonzalez
Hairston
Fogg
Hatteberg

The first ten above I think that Jockerty will be looking for upgrades and the next two I believe will be over money and contract terms vs. other possible alternative in Jockerty’s mind.

Dunn - money reasons, won’t fit Jockerty’s mind set for a hitting/fielding
Griffey- age and money reasons

They will re-evaluate the pitching as the year goes on and of course the list of position players

flyer85
04-23-2008, 04:06 PM
3. Dunn's no trade clause expires in June.
not completely true.

Dunn gets limited no-trade and if he and his agent wanted to they could effectively block any potential deal.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 04:07 PM
Wayne already drove away a lot of them.
Not worried that we might lose some of Wayne's "yes" men.
Hopefully Jocketty still has his list of good scouts.
Didn't someone say on this board years ago that the Cards probably had the best advance scouts in the game? They certainly did a good job in evaluating talent in trades as well.

On the other hand, the Reds farm system has the all the makings of a very good talent pipeline. Most, if not all, of their recent pitching draft choices have avoided the knife and, aside from Drew Stubbs, their bats are moving through the system nicely as well.

I'd be very worried about losing a lot of good scouts and talent evaluators this close to the draft. You can't afford to punt a year.

Will M
04-23-2008, 04:11 PM
not completely true.

Adam Dunn of
2 years/$18.5M (2006-07), plus $13M 2008 club option

Cincinnati exercised $13M 2008 option 10/31/07
re-signed 2/06, avoided arbitration ($8.95M-$7.1M)
06:$7.5M, 07:$10.5M, 08:$13M club option ($0.5M buyout)
2008 option may increase to $16M based on award bonuses
if club exercised 2008 option, Dunn receives full no-trade clause until 6/15/2008 & limited no-trade clause for the remainder of 2008 (allowing Dunn specify 10 clubs to which he would accept a trade)

2008 option voids if Dunn is traded before 2008
assignment bonus of $0.5M if traded

1 year/$4.6M (2005), avoided arbitration 1/05
1 year/$0.445M (2004), re-signed 3/04
1 year/$0.4M (2003) 3/03
agent: Brian Peters, Greg Genske

ML service: 6.074


Dunn gets limited no-trade and if he and his agent wanted to they could effectively block any potential deal.

I don't follow your logic here. If a team is one of the ten the Dunn can't block a trade.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 04:15 PM
I don't follow your logic here. If a team is one of the ten the Dunn can't block a trade.Dunn and his agent simply provide a list of 10 teams that would have no interest in trading for Dunn(that would be quite an easy task), it is quite often what happens because it gives the player leverage.

CTA513
04-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Jockety will trade Gary Majewski to the Cardinals for Albert Pujols.

:cool:





;)

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 04:48 PM
Thats like saying Theo Epstein likes middle of the order hitters like Manny and Big Papi. I am sure there isn't one team in the league who wouldh't have wanted Pujols in the 3 hole or Rollen in his prime in the 5 hole. But that always isn't possible. You make the best out of the roster you have.


So get a better roster.

If we don't have it currently on the 25 man roster, and it isn't hiding in our farm system, then go forth and obtain.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 04:48 PM
not completely true.

Dunn gets limited no-trade and if he and his agent wanted to they could effectively block any potential deal.

As I understand the clause, they provide the team with ten teams to which he would accept a trade. Yes, he could potentially select ten who cannot afford him or give appropriate value, but I think he's more likely to list clubs that have a chance of winning. Just my opinion.

Kc61
04-23-2008, 04:50 PM
As I understand the clause, they provide the team with ten teams to which he would accept a trade. Yes, he could potentially select ten who cannot afford him or give appropriate value, but I think he's more likely to list clubs that have a chance of winning. Just my opinion.

Anyone can be traded. Guys waive no-trade clauses. For money. Or the chance at World Series exposure. But usually for money.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 04:58 PM
As I understand the clause, they provide the team with ten teams to which he would accept a trade. Yes, he could potentially select ten who cannot afford him or give appropriate value, but I think he's more likely to list clubs that have a chance of winning. Just my opinion.no reason to. Dunn can always waive the no-trade clause if he wants. If dunn/agent list teams that won't trade for Dunn it gives them leverage if the Reds work out a trade to a team not on his list. Leverage is the entire point of a no-trade clause.

If Dunn lists only teams that he is likely to be traded to(those with higher payrolls in the playoff hunt) then being able to make the list serves no purpose ... it is like not having a limited no-trade clause at all.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 05:08 PM
WK assembled a bunch of stuff bought at the garage sale(Gonzo, Valentin, Castro, Stanton, Freel, Coffey, Patterson, Hatty, etc) that he ended up being stuck with and having no way to get rid of without eating the contract.

Kind of reminds me of the poor newbie at a roto league draft that gets baited into overbidding on below average players or his "favorites".

On the bright side though, Castro has a good chance to land with whatever club hires Wayne as an advisor :lol:

VR
04-23-2008, 05:11 PM
Dunn or Griff

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 05:12 PM
I'd be very worried about losing a lot of good scouts and talent evaluators this close to the draft. You can't afford to punt a year.


I'm not worried about this. It works both ways. Other clubs aren't likely to be looking to hire new scouts now. Some scouts may flee after the season ends, but if they endured Wayne's poor people skills, Jocketty will probably seem like a good boss in comparison.

I just don't fear a mass resignation to protest Wayne's termination. Put yourself in their shoes. What would quitting accomplish at this point? Why not hang around and get paid this year and see what the new regime is like?

reds44
04-23-2008, 05:12 PM
Either you'll see Dunn and Reds start talking extension soon, or Dunn won't be a Red come August 1st.

Walt won't sit on his hands with this like Krivsky did.

RedEye
04-23-2008, 06:08 PM
Brandon Phillips isn't going anywhere. He just signed a big extension (which Castellini signed off on) and I believe the Reds are geared towards making him the face of the franchise. I believe that at this point he is the last position player on the team that you will see traded.

He may not be in the "meat of the order" but he will surely be in the lineup for some time to come, and that's ok in my book.

I actually think that if Jocketty is smart, he will move Phillips now. His value will never be higher IMO.

reds44
04-23-2008, 06:14 PM
Hasn't everyone been waiting for Phillips to "regress to the means" since we traded for him?

princeton
04-23-2008, 06:36 PM
Jocketty will put Castro back on the 25 man roster.

WJ's a people person.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 06:50 PM
Gonzalez is a perfectly servicable major league SS defensively and offensively.
Also Gonzo at SS with Kep at 3B is much better defensively than Kep at SS and EE at 3B.

No, he's not. He had a 99 OPS+ in a career season at the plate. He was a 2 win player last year. Keppinger is as good as AGon defensively. AGon and Kepp would be much less productive than Kepp and EE offensively. A run scored is a run prevented. AGon is done IMO...

princeton
04-23-2008, 06:53 PM
Keppinger is as good as AGon defensively.

you must hate the words "baseball people" as well

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 06:54 PM
you must hate the words "baseball people" as well

Would you like to explain any further?

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 07:37 PM
Jocketty's first move should be to trade Bronson Arroyo for anything he can, even if it's a bag of balls.

PuffyPig
04-23-2008, 07:48 PM
Jocketty's first move should be to trade Bronson Arroyo for anything he can, even if it's a bag of balls.

I asume you are suggesting that Arroyo is finished as a major league pitcher?

Arroyo is not the first pitcher to get off to a slow start, and won't be the last.

Many will turn it around, and Arroyo might even end up this game with 6 innings, 2 runs and a bunch of K's.

Let's give him that chance before we get nothing for him in a trade.

Because many were saying the same thing about EE and Votto early this season.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 07:49 PM
Fair point...

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 07:51 PM
I asume you are suggesting that Arroyo is finished as a major league pitcher?

Arroyo is not the first pitcher to get off to a slow start, and won't be the last.

Many will turn it around, and Arroyo might even end up this game with 6 innings, 2 runs and a bunch of K's.

Let's give him that chance before we get nothing for him in a trade.

Because many were saying the same thing about EE and Votto early this season.

His stuff looks awful. His fastball is sitting around 86 and the curve isn't all that sharp. He's very, very hittable right now. I'm afraid Narron's abuse has finally taken a toll on him.

Reds4Life
04-23-2008, 07:51 PM
Griffey. Jocketty will move him at the deadline, but I'm not sure how much he'll be able to get in return. I suspect he'll sign Dunn to an extention as well.

The interesting question might be, will Jocketty dump Dusty Baker at the end of the season? Never know.

PuffyPig
04-23-2008, 07:55 PM
His stuff looks awful. His fastball is sitting around 86 and the curve isn't all that sharp. He's very, very hittable right now. I'm afraid Narron's abuse has finally taken a toll on him.

You just might be wrong.

His fastball may get faster, and his curve might start breaking more.

In fact, his 3 K's suggest his curveball has been pretty good tonight.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 07:58 PM
You just might be wrong.

His fastball may get faster, and his curve might start breaking more.

In fact, his 3 K's suggest his curveball has been pretty good tonight.

I certainly hope I'm wrong because a healthy 200 innings of 4.00 ERA ball from Arroyo would be huge for this teams chances of competing for the Central.

PuffyPig
04-23-2008, 08:00 PM
I certainly hope I'm wrong because a healthy 200 innings of 4.00 ERA ball from Arroyo would be huge for this team's chances of competing for the Central.


Well, you have occasionally suggested things were "long gone" prior to the event actually happening.;)

Rojo
04-23-2008, 08:19 PM
I think he extends Dunn. WK wasn't. I wouldn't.

Aronchis
04-23-2008, 08:25 PM
Arroyo's arm doesn't look good. He is getting hit hard because his fastball has lost umph.

It is like with Homer Bailey. He only has 16k's in 26.1I, but he hasn't gotten beat around. Alot of it is because he his throwing a heavy fastball with good velocity. Guys can't turn on him easy and it shows up in the stats. But he isn't getting the k's he should because his offspeed stuff is looking rough at this point. It that clicks like Cueto did last summer, Homer will be up in Cincy on tomorrows roadtrip.

Bronson on the otherhand, has a weaker fastball than usual. It might explain why Cast fired Krivsky if Wayne threw 20+million down the drain the next few years. Signing Arroyo was a major blunder at this point. Not trading him away after his 2006 fluke was even worse. It may have finally made Cast snap.

I see Arroyo had a Matt Belisle type start. How sad.

gm
04-24-2008, 08:04 PM
Jock said he's bullish on defense, which makes me think he'll be bearish on EdE

Falls City Beer
04-24-2008, 08:08 PM
Jock said he's bullish on defense, which makes me think he'll be bearish on EdE

EE = Fernando Tatis.

I'm bearish on him, too.

HokieRed
04-24-2008, 08:19 PM
Ed E currently has a .953 OPS on a very weak offense. He's arguably the most important and valuable offensive player on this team.

Falls City Beer
04-24-2008, 08:32 PM
Ed E currently has a .953 OPS on a very weak offense. He's arguably the most important and valuable offensive player on this team.

He can move to left next year--but I'd be fine trading him too.

gm
04-24-2008, 10:01 PM
Ed E currently has a .953 OPS on a very weak offense. He's arguably the most important and valuable offensive player on this team.

two words: sell high

(hopefully WJ will know when to flip 'em better than the Kriv Dawg)

reds44
04-24-2008, 10:06 PM
two words: sell high

(hopefully WJ will know when to flip 'em better than the Kriv Dawg)
Trade your 25 year old 3rd baseman with a career .274/.350/.458/.808 line who is currently your best hitter and only right handed threat? Edwin hasn't even reached his peak hitting age yet. That's not selling high. If Edwin stays healthy this year, he's launching 30+. Book it. With free agency looming for both Griffey and Dunn, I don't think now is the time to trade young, cheap talent.

Benihana
04-25-2008, 11:37 AM
Trade your 25 year old 3rd baseman with a career .274/.350/.458/.808 line who is currently your best hitter and only right handed threat? Edwin hasn't even reached his peak hitting age yet. That's not selling high. If Edwin stays healthy this year, he's launching 30+. Book it. With free agency looming for both Griffey and Dunn, I don't think now is the time to trade young, cheap talent.

Agreed. The only way they can even think about trading EdE is after the ink dries on Dunn's extension. Otherwise, if you think the offense is anemic now...

Guacarock
04-25-2008, 11:49 AM
Don't know who will stay, who will go.

But it's a fair assumption that a few of the players might be Oakland-bound.

If you look at Jocketty's tenure in St. Louis, he just loved to swing deals with the As. He traded more times with Oakland than with anyone else.

He also swapped players quite often with the Rockies.

Otherwise, he worked deals all over the map, with many teams from both leagues, so we can expect a busy summer ahead -- especially if the Reds continue to tank in May as they have in April.

nate
04-25-2008, 11:55 AM
Don't know who will stay, who will go.

But it's a fair assumption that a few of the players might be Oakland-bound.

If you look at Jocketty's tenure in St. Louis, he just loved to swing deals with the As. He traded more times with Oakland than with anyone else.

He also swapped players quite often with the Rockies.

Otherwise, he worked deals all over the map, with many teams from both leagues, so we can expect a busy summer ahead -- especially if the Reds continue to tank in May as they have in April.

Does that mean we can change our "Wayne loves himself some ex-Twins" macros to "Walt loves himself some ex-A's?"

Spring~Fields
04-25-2008, 02:36 PM
Maybe someone can answer this because I don't know and I want to know what we can expect from the new GM and why we should believe in him here in Cincy. Can we assume that the budget will go up to around 90-100 million or what?


How do you suppose and anticipate that Jocketty "will improve the club"?

What changes ?
What moves ?
Where will his focus for improvement be ?
How will he accomplish them ?
What upgrade ?
Where will he start first?
What kind fo W/L do you anticipate he will finish this year and next with?
What kind of time frame will he need to accomplish what you expect him to?
How much will it cost the investors, how much in budget terms?
Where will he be much improved over previous GM's?

Falls City Beer
04-25-2008, 02:39 PM
Maybe someone can answer this because I don't know and I want to know what we can expect from the new GM and why we should believe in him here in Cincy. Can we assume that the budget will go up to around 90-100 million or what?


How do you suppose and anticipate that Jocketty "will improve the club"?

What changes ?
What moves ?
Where will his focus for improvement be ?
How will he accomplish them ?
What upgrade ?
Where will he start first?
What kind fo W/L do you anticipate he will finish this year and next with?
What kind of time frame will he need to accomplish what you expect him to?
How much will it cost the investors, how much in budget terms?
Where will he be much improved over previous GM's?

Very tough to anticipate. It's not exactly blockbuster trade season. But right now, out of the 25 men on the current roster, exactly two (2) are firing on all cylinders (Volquez and Harang).

Benihana
04-25-2008, 02:42 PM
Don't know who will stay, who will go.

But it's a fair assumption that a few of the players might be Oakland-bound.

If you look at Jocketty's tenure in St. Louis, he just loved to swing deals with the As. He traded more times with Oakland than with anyone else.

He also swapped players quite often with the Rockies.

Otherwise, he worked deals all over the map, with many teams from both leagues, so we can expect a busy summer ahead -- especially if the Reds continue to tank in May as they have in April.

That's because those are the two teams he worked for before he came to St. Louis. Just like Bowden with the Reds and Krivsky with the Twins. So if anything, expect to see some deals made with St. Louis- although I don't know if that will be blocked by the old "Never trade within the division" adage.

Too bad Colby Rasmus is left handed, otherwise a Homer Bailey for Rasmus trade could be pretty nice. Maybe we'll see a move for Anthony Reyes?

Benihana
04-25-2008, 02:43 PM
Very tough to anticipate. It's not exactly blockbuster trade season. But right now, out of the 25 men on the current roster, exactly two (2) are firing on all cylinders (Volquez and Harang).

I think Cueto and Cordero have been pretty good so far.

Falls City Beer
04-25-2008, 02:44 PM
I think Cueto and Cordero have been pretty good so far.

Cueto's been interesting--doing the things that keep a cynic like me from dismissing him out of hand, but he's hardly been dominant.

Volquez, on the other hand.

Cordero's been--as many predicted--good, but somewhat useless. I wouldn't mind seeing Cordero moved up to the sixth inning/first bull out of the gate guy. Never happen though.

Topcat
04-25-2008, 02:53 PM
This thought just occurred to me, didn't Mr. Castellini say he would sell the team if there was not improvement this year ? I guess if I took that comment more seriously. The firing of Wayne K would not come off as a huge shock to me. This makes me concludethat major changes are on there way with our Franchise,

Chip R
04-25-2008, 03:01 PM
This thought just occurred to me, didn't Mr. Castellini say he would sell the team if there was not improvement this year ? I guess if I took that comment more seriously. The firing of Wayne K would not come off as a huge shock to me. This makes me concludethat major changes are on there way with our Franchise,


He said he'd fire himself. Now what that exactly meant, no one but Bob knows.

bucksfan2
04-25-2008, 03:12 PM
What changes ?
No one really knows. I would assume that Bailey and Bruce are on the verge of being in Cincinnati

What moves ?
IMO the outfield mess needs to be cleared up. A decision should already be made about the status of Adam Dunn. Does Castellini eat another multi million dollar contract in Freel? What does he do with Patterson?

Where will his focus for improvement be ?
4,5 starter, true leadoff hitter would be the places I start

How will he accomplish them ?
Bailey and Bruce can help from the minors.

These are a few of my thoughs on some of the questions. I would assume that Jocketty has made some decisions based upon the personal that the reds already have. The Reds can/should/may start with a clean slate in the outfield next season. The only poor contract that will be out there is Freel's. Dunn and Jr. may be gone and Bruce and his rookie minimum will still be in place. I would say that there are pretty good odds that a rotatoin of Harang, Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, and Arroyo will be in place shortly as well as into 09. I really think that Krivsky was trying to tread water to make it to the next offseason when the reds will have a great deal of flexability. We will really see what Jocketty is made of over the next 9 months.

TRF
04-25-2008, 03:29 PM
I think the premise that Hat could be flipped for value was wrong.

Jeff Conine says hi.

REDREAD
04-25-2008, 04:43 PM
Cordero's been--as many predicted--good, but somewhat useless. I wouldn't mind seeing Cordero moved up to the sixth inning/first bull out of the gate guy. Never happen though.


I like how Dusty is using Cordero during a tie game though, as opposed to "saving" him in case the Reds get ahead.

REDREAD
04-25-2008, 04:48 PM
Jeff Conine says hi.

And I say hi back..It's not as if Conine retrieved a king's ransom. If we took the amount of pro-rated salary we paid Conine, we could probably buy a pretty good draft pick.. Likewise with Hat. That's why it doesn't make sense to sign a marginal vet like Hat which isn't likely to be marketable. Then you are left praying for a contender to get an injury to facilitate a trade. If that doesn't happen, you are out 2 million..

At least Conine sort of filled the short term need of a RH bat. It made little sense to bring back both Hat and Valentine. Keeping one was fine, keeping both was not a good use of roster space.

In this year's market, I don't think there's much interest in Hat.

If Walt is able to get something good for Hat, I'll gladly admit I'm worng.

Highlifeman21
04-25-2008, 04:49 PM
Does that mean we can change our "Wayne loves himself some ex-Twins" macros to "Walt loves himself some ex-A's?"

Does this mean I can get my hopes up for Chris Denorfia's triumphant return to the Queen City?

I expect a ticker-tape parade to commemorate the event.

Highlifeman21
04-25-2008, 04:52 PM
Cueto's been interesting--doing the things that keep a cynic like me from dismissing him out of hand, but he's hardly been dominant.
Volquez, on the other hand.

Cordero's been--as many predicted--good, but somewhat useless. I wouldn't mind seeing Cordero moved up to the sixth inning/first bull out of the gate guy. Never happen though.

As of late, Cueto's developed Homer Baileyitis: an inflamation of some part of his brain that makes him fall in-love with a particular pitch in his arsenal. Homer loves his fastball. Johnny loves his slider.

Cueto's got a good slider, but when the whole world begins to sit and wait for it, I don't care how good it is. It'll continued to get smacked around the yard.

gm
04-25-2008, 06:48 PM
Trade your 25 year old 3rd baseman with a career .274/.350/.458/.808 line who is currently your best hitter and only right handed threat? Edwin hasn't even reached his peak hitting age yet. That's not selling high. If Edwin stays healthy this year, he's launching 30+. Book it. With free agency looming for both Griffey and Dunn, I don't think now is the time to trade young, cheap talent.

If EdE's OPS hits the skids (again) and his throws keep evading Votto do you reserve the right to change your mind? (And it's easy to say "if he can't handle the hot corner, we'll just stick him out in LF" when no one has ever seen him chasing fly balls in the OF)

We'll see how much defense really means to Jocketty by whether he decides to hang on to Dunn and EdE (I'm assuming Griffey is gonzo)

nate
04-25-2008, 07:22 PM
Does this mean I can get my hopes up for Chris Denorfia's triumphant return to the Queen City?

I expect a ticker-tape parade to commemorate the event.

As long as he ditches the "lion tamer" look:

http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_456121.jpg