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redsmetz
04-23-2008, 01:49 PM
Caveat wonders aloud to the group:

How much longer does Jay Bruce stay a Red, in AAA, with a new GM that has a past history of trading young players for established stars and a manager that has a past history (albeit showing no signs of that history at the moment) of preferring established players over young ones.

Again, playing catch up, so maybe somebody made this comment, but doesn't it seem with the Reds that Dusty is relishing working with these young players and seeing them become competent ML players?

westofyou
04-23-2008, 01:50 PM
Krivsky his own enemy

By Hal McCoy | Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 12:48 PM
What do you think?

Bob Castellini is a businessman, the nation’s leading fruit and vegetable magnate, and if the price of lettuce and tomatoes has soared the last couple of years, it might be traced back to Wayne Krivsky.

Castellini, CEO of the Cincinnati Reds, fired general manager Krivsky today, replacing him with Walt Jocketty.

During Krivsky’s regime, the team has had to eat more dollar bills than the number of heads of lettuce Castellini sells.

Some questionable contracts that forced the team to pay money to players no longer playing for the Reds didn’t help Krivsky’s cause.

It started with when he signed pitcher Rheal Cormier to a two-year contract. When the team released him it had to pay him something like $3 million NOT to pitch.

When the Reds released pitcher Mike Stanton this spring, it forced them to pay him $3.5 million this year NOT to pitch.

And there is that curious contract he gave outfielder Corey Patterson, who was sitting at home doing nothing during spring training, pursued by no other teams. Krivsky signed him for $3 million when Patterson probably would have taken $500,000 and paid his own way to camp.

He gave utility player Ryan Freel a deal that pays him $3 million this year and $4 million next year and couldn’t trade him unless the team absorbed some of that money.

He gave pitcher Josh Fogg a $1.5 million deal mid-spring training when no other teams were pursuing him, a panic move when Krivsky wasn’t certain how good Johnny Cueto and Edinson Volquez would be.

The $46 million, three-deal for closer Francisco Cordero looked good at the time, but so far, after 21 games, he has had only two save opportunities. That contract may pan out, but right now one wonders.

All this could be overlooked by Castellini if the team showed a propensity for winning, which it hasn’t during Krivsky’s tenure. After all, Castellini signed off on all those deals, taking Krivsky’s advice. Castellini wants to win and he wants to win now.

He and Jocketty worked together in St. Louis when Jocketty helped piece together a team that was not contending to one that contended for more than a decade.

Krivsky and I were friends long before he was named Reds GM. When he worked for the Minnesota Twins, he traveled the country scouting other teams and I encountered him often. We had many lunches together and talked often.

His ambition, of course, was to be a GM and he would say, “If I’d get the Reds job, there are a lot of things I would do and we’d have a lot of fun.”

It wasn’t fun. Krivsky remained my friend, but he changed. He was not forthcoming with information to the media, not even on the most menial things. He was guarded, overly guarded.

Two years ago during the winter meetings in Orlando, I took him aside in his suite after another unproductive media meeting in which he divulged nothing about what the team was doing or trying to do.

I said, “Wayne, remember when we had lunches and chatted about your future and how much fun we’d have together with the Reds?”

“Yes,” he said.

“Well, I’m not having fun,” I said. “Remember when I told you how difficult it was sometimes getting information from your predecessor, Dan O’Brien? Well, you’re worse.”

Krivsky seemed to think about it, but nothing changed. And nothing changed with the Reds.

Nobody likes to see anybody lose his job, especially a friend. But Krivsky cut his own throat.

Jocketty is a good man, too, and a solid baseball man. Things should change, and much for the better.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

Seriously... this is WHY Hal is/was considered a really good baseball beat guy, good story and something I thought (and was dead wrong) that WK could grow out of.

This game is hard, I hope somewhere Bob C. ponders that aspect too.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 01:52 PM
as of right now the Reds will have one ML quality starting OF under their control for 2009, Jay Bruce, since I don't consider the Reds picking up Jr's $16M option as realistic.


Yes, I agree. It's been a problem looming for some time now.

Dunn has a ton of leverage going into negotiations, if he wants to exploit it.
The team can't trade him without his consent. The team only has one legit OF next year locked up as you pointed out.

Jpup
04-23-2008, 01:52 PM
Why am I afraid of a Homer Bailey to Oakland for Joe Blanton deal? That seems like a Walt Jocketty move.

vaticanplum
04-23-2008, 01:52 PM
Haven't read the whole thread yet and not sure of my thoughts, but it was just pointed out to me that I witnessed in person the last game of the Krivsky era. At least now I have something for my tombstone.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 01:54 PM
Why am I afraid of a Homer Bailey to Oakland for Joe Blanton deal? That seems like a Walt Jocketty move.

:dunno:

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 01:54 PM
That was a pretty cool article by Hal.

Cyclone792
04-23-2008, 01:54 PM
Krivsky his own enemy

By Hal McCoy | Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 12:48 PM
What do you think?

Bob Castellini is a businessman, the nation’s leading fruit and vegetable magnate, and if the price of lettuce and tomatoes has soared the last couple of years, it might be traced back to Wayne Krivsky.

Castellini, CEO of the Cincinnati Reds, fired general manager Krivsky today, replacing him with Walt Jocketty.

During Krivsky’s regime, the team has had to eat more dollar bills than the number of heads of lettuce Castellini sells.

Some questionable contracts that forced the team to pay money to players no longer playing for the Reds didn’t help Krivsky’s cause.

It started with when he signed pitcher Rheal Cormier to a two-year contract. When the team released him it had to pay him something like $3 million NOT to pitch.

When the Reds released pitcher Mike Stanton this spring, it forced them to pay him $3.5 million this year NOT to pitch.

And there is that curious contract he gave outfielder Corey Patterson, who was sitting at home doing nothing during spring training, pursued by no other teams. Krivsky signed him for $3 million when Patterson probably would have taken $500,000 and paid his own way to camp.

He gave utility player Ryan Freel a deal that pays him $3 million this year and $4 million next year and couldn’t trade him unless the team absorbed some of that money.

He gave pitcher Josh Fogg a $1.5 million deal mid-spring training when no other teams were pursuing him, a panic move when Krivsky wasn’t certain how good Johnny Cueto and Edinson Volquez would be.

The $46 million, three-deal for closer Francisco Cordero looked good at the time, but so far, after 21 games, he has had only two save opportunities. That contract may pan out, but right now one wonders.

All this could be overlooked by Castellini if the team showed a propensity for winning, which it hasn’t during Krivsky’s tenure. After all, Castellini signed off on all those deals, taking Krivsky’s advice. Castellini wants to win and he wants to win now.

He and Jocketty worked together in St. Louis when Jocketty helped piece together a team that was not contending to one that contended for more than a decade.

Krivsky and I were friends long before he was named Reds GM. When he worked for the Minnesota Twins, he traveled the country scouting other teams and I encountered him often. We had many lunches together and talked often.

His ambition, of course, was to be a GM and he would say, “If I’d get the Reds job, there are a lot of things I would do and we’d have a lot of fun.”

It wasn’t fun. Krivsky remained my friend, but he changed. He was not forthcoming with information to the media, not even on the most menial things. He was guarded, overly guarded.

Two years ago during the winter meetings in Orlando, I took him aside in his suite after another unproductive media meeting in which he divulged nothing about what the team was doing or trying to do.

I said, “Wayne, remember when we had lunches and chatted about your future and how much fun we’d have together with the Reds?”

“Yes,” he said.

“Well, I’m not having fun,” I said. “Remember when I told you how difficult it was sometimes getting information from your predecessor, Dan O’Brien? Well, you’re worse.”

Krivsky seemed to think about it, but nothing changed. And nothing changed with the Reds.

Nobody likes to see anybody lose his job, especially a friend. But Krivsky cut his own throat.

Jocketty is a good man, too, and a solid baseball man. Things should change, and much for the better.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

The key section ...


It wasn’t fun. Krivsky remained my friend, but he changed.

Hal is obviously referencing Krivsky being guarded, but the theme here is the same: Krivsky changed as a person. It's a theme that's been coming out from several different directions for a year now.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 01:54 PM
I'm playing catch up here, but the fact is, he only had two off-seasons to do it. He was hired weeks before spring training in 2006. I blame that on the foolishness of MLB in dragging their feet on the ownership change, but the fact is, he only got two offseasons.

Ok, he had about 2.5 offseasons to make the changes he wanted.
He was actually quite active in that first partial offseason.
If I remember right, he picked up Arroyo, Ross, Hat, Cody Ross, and maybe others? That's a pretty active offseason. Aguably, it was his best offseason.

Jpup
04-23-2008, 01:55 PM
The key section ...



Hal is obviously referencing Krivsky being guarded, but the theme here is the same: Krivsky changed as a person. It's a theme that's been coming out from several different directions for a year now.


Doc just said on XM that Krivsky never changed. Who to believe?

HokieRed
04-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Speaking of contract eating, I suspect the next one on Cast's menu is $3 million wasted entirely, in my view, on Corey Patterson.

Jpup
04-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Ok, he had about 2.5 offseasons to make the changes he wanted.
He was actually quite active in that first partial offseason.
If I remember right, he picked up Arroyo, Ross, Hat, Cody Ross, and maybe others? That's a pretty active offseason. Aguably, it was his best offseason.

Was Cody Ross not picked up during the season? It doesn't matter either way.

Cyclone792
04-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Doc just said on XM that Krivsky never changed. Who to believe?

Did Doc know Krivsky before 2006? Doubtful.

That's the change. Pre Reds Krivsky vs. Reds Krivsky.

westofyou
04-23-2008, 01:57 PM
Ok, he had about 2.5 offseasons to make the changes he wanted.
He was actually quite active in that first partial offseason.
If I remember right, he picked up Arroyo, Ross, Hat, Cody Ross, and maybe others? That's a pretty active offseason. Aguably, it was his best offseason.

No..2, he came on in Feb of 2006... a week before pitchers and catchers

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 01:57 PM
It will be very interesting to see how Dunn's contract situation is handled under Jocketty. I had the feeling that this was Dunn's last season in Cincy if Krivsky remained the GM. Now that Jocketty is in charge, I could see him being re-signed to a three or four year deal.

bucksfan2
04-23-2008, 01:58 PM
I don't put much stock in Hal anymore. He seems to have more sour grapes in today's game than he ever has. He always seemed to struggle with Krivsky's tight liped nature.

oneupper
04-23-2008, 01:59 PM
Cast wanted HIS guy Jocketty in this position. IMO, that's what this is all about.

LoganBuck
04-23-2008, 02:00 PM
Haven't read the whole thread yet and not sure of my thoughts, but it was just pointed out to me that I witnessed in person the last game of the Krivsky era. At least now I have something for my tombstone.

It is important to be remembered for the great things you accomplished in your life.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 02:01 PM
I could see him being re-signed to a three or four year deal.... or traded or allowed to walk.

Until talks have been initiated there is NO reason to believe Dunn will be back in 2009.

Mario-Rijo
04-23-2008, 02:01 PM
Pretty surprised here. But BC said....."If momma ain't happen, ain't nobody happy" and judging from the recent attendance "Momma" definitely ain't happy!

Krivsky got an opportunity to show BC he could do it w/o the big contracts. And if he had more time I feel he would have eventually got there. Problem is when you have BC as an owner time is not on your side. Especially when you are not making any friends in the meantime. WJ might be the answer for this period in time, I hope so.

But I will still stand beside most of the moves Krivsky made as good ones. He did about as good a job with this team in his short time as anybody could have at the time. But perhaps it's time for Phil Jackson to take over the Bulls and take them to the next level.

Team Clark
04-23-2008, 02:03 PM
Doc just said on XM that Krivsky never changed. Who to believe?

Daugherty did not know Krivsky before he was hired. If you look at the same time line being discusses I believe Daugherty and McCoy are talking about exactly the same thing.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 02:05 PM
... or traded or allowed to walk.

Until talks have been initiated there is NO reason to believe Dunn will be back in 2009.

Castellini likes Dunn and wants him back. It was Krivsky's job to negotiate with Dunn and he had yet to do that which leads me to believe he was going to let Dunn walk at the end of the season. Dunn seems like a Jocketty type player, so I wouldn't be too surprised if one of the first things he does is contact Dunn and his agent about a LTC.

MrCinatit
04-23-2008, 02:05 PM
A rather surprising move.
I have to agree with what some others have said here: Looking at the very strange timing of this move, I would have to say there is a lot more than meets the eye. Dumping your GM in late April seems a rare move.
I liked Wayne - I thought he made some excellent pickups (Phillips, Arroyo, Burton, Hamilton, Vosquez), but he also had a lot of head scratchers (Castro, Stanton, Sarloos). Then again, what GM has ever been perfect?

Kc61
04-23-2008, 02:06 PM
It will be very interesting to see how Dunn's contract situation is handled under Jocketty. I had the feeling that this was Dunn's last season in Cincy if Krivsky remained the GM. Now that Jocketty is in charge, I could see him being re-signed to a three or four year deal.

My wild guess is that the opposite will happen and that Jocketty will consider trading Dunn sooner rather than later.

Krivsky was headed to the deadline with Dunn. For Dunn's July - September services this year, WK wasn't going to be offered much. So he probably would have played out the string and let Dunn walk as a free agent.

Most GMs re-structure major league teams to their own taste. O'Brien didn't at all. Krivsky did to a limited extent, but didn't rip the core apart.

I think Jocketty will. My guess is that he will change the offensive core of the team and that Dunn, a potential free agent, is the obvious place to start. My guess is that by mid-season, the outfield of this team will be Griffey in right, Bruce in center, new guy good righty hitter in left.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 02:07 PM
Castellini likes Dunn and wants him back.at this point that is only anecdotal. Want poeple to believe it? Then contract negotiations will be started.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 02:09 PM
My guess is that by mid-season, the outfield of this team will be Griffey in right, Bruce in center, new guy good righty hitter in left.I have no idea how the Reds get
good righty hitter in the near future. And with Jr unlikely to be around in 2009 that is now a 2nd rabbit Jocketty will have to pull out of a hat.

I think a guys like Stubbs and Jr now have a much higher potential of being traded since likely have little future in Cincy anyway.

Triples
04-23-2008, 02:10 PM
Cast wanted HIS guy Jocketty in this position. IMO, that's what this is all about.

Who hired Krivsky...I thought Cast did. doesn't that make Krivisky HIS guy too?:confused:

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 02:11 PM
Who hired Krivsky...I thought Cast did. doesn't that make Krivisky HIS guy too?:confused:

Jocketty wasn't available at the time...

oneupper
04-23-2008, 02:13 PM
Who hired Krivsky...I thought Cast did. doesn't that make Krivisky HIS guy too?:confused:

Jocketty was working for STL when Krivsky was hired. Cast didn't know WK before he was hired. Apparently though Cast and Jocketty go way back.

oneupper
04-23-2008, 02:15 PM
I have to admit, I once fired a guy because another person became available for the position.

Kc61
04-23-2008, 02:17 PM
I have no idea how the Reds get a [good righty hitter] in the near future. And with Jr unlikely to be around in 2009 that is now a 2nd rabbit Jocketty will have to pull out of a hat.

I think a guys like Stubbs and Jr now have a much higher potential of being traded since likely have little future in Cincy anyway.

They make a trade. I'm not suggesting they acquire Hank Aaron, but there are often situations around in which a good hitter can be obtained for, say, prospects (of which the Reds have many) and veterans. Adam Dunn himself would have some value -- if he walks away he turns into draft choices -- and packaged with others can indeed get a good hitter in return.

The decision to give Dunn $60 or 70 million in a long-term deal is a major one and is very debatable. If Jocketty doesn't intend to go that route, I would expect a deal in the first half of this season to move Dunn.

On the other hand, Jr. would probably accept a shorter, cheaper contract and may be more likely to stay at reduced rates. Stubbs is not a factor in this, he's a young player, and will either be included in a deal or continue his development as a Reds prospect.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 02:18 PM
Yes, I agree. It's been a problem looming for some time now.

Dunn has a ton of leverage going into negotiations, if he wants to exploit it.
The team can't trade him without his consent. The team only has one legit OF next year locked up as you pointed out.

Here's what Cots say of Dunn's contract:


If club exercised 2008 option, Dunn receives full no-trade clause until 6/15/2008 & limited no-trade clause for the remainder of 2008 (allowing Dunn specify 10 clubs to which he would accept a trade)

flyer85
04-23-2008, 02:21 PM
They make a trade. I'm not suggesting they acquire Hank Aaron, but there are often situations around in which a good hitter can be obtained for, say, prospects (of which the Reds have many) and veterans. Adam Dunn himself would have some value -- if he walks away he turns into draft choices -- and packaged with others can indeed get a good hitter in return.
Dunn has little trade value and can effectively block any trade even after the middle of June.

And if he walks the ability to trade the picks and others can't realistically happen until after June 2010 ... a little late.


On the other hand, Jr. would probably accept a shorter, cheaper contract and may be more likely to stay at reduced rates.and is unlikely to be worth it.

PECOTA predicts a MORP of $2.3M in 2009 and $1.2M in 2010 for Jr.

2 things are very likely
1) if signed, Dunn will be overpriced
2) his trade will not bring an adequate replacement

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 02:21 PM
I don't put much stock in Hal anymore. He seems to have more sour grapes in today's game than he ever has. He always seemed to struggle with Krivsky's tight liped nature.

Yeah, but that's the beauty of the story -- he KNEW Krivsky from before he became Reds GM, and it wasn't like that.

Good story by Hal, IMO. If that's the change in WK's public persona, imagine the change that happened behind the scenes...

Cyclone792
04-23-2008, 02:26 PM
Yeah, but that's the beauty of the story -- he KNEW Krivsky from before he became Reds GM, and it wasn't like that.

Good story by Hal, IMO. If that's the change in WK's public persona, imagine the change that happened behind the scenes...

Yup, it's the same theme emerging from the sea from each and every angle.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 02:31 PM
Ok, he had about 2.5 offseasons to make the changes he wanted.
He was actually quite active in that first partial offseason.
If I remember right, he picked up Arroyo, Ross, Hat, Cody Ross, and maybe others? That's a pretty active offseason. Aguably, it was his best offseason.

I would suggest again, that he had only two offseasons - once Spring Training starts, the offseason is over - it's the new season. From the list back on Page Ten, here's what Krivsky did from his hiring until the regular season opened.


* 2-12-06: Scott Hatteberg signed to a one-year, $750K deal.
* 2-13-06: Adam Dunn signed to two-year, $18.5MM extension.
* 3-20-06: Acquired Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena.
* 3-21-06: Acquired David Ross for Bobby Basham.

Now again, I lay that completely at the feet of MLB - they did a genuine disservice to the Reds by dragging their feet until the new year to finalize an ownership change that was in front of them for months before the sale was approved.

I'm not suggesting that it would have made a difference either way, but one can hardly call being hired a week before Spring Training having any part of an off-season to do anything. It's amazing what he was able to accomplish right out of the chute.

I agree with those that say the Reds are in a better position overall because of the work Krivsky did. It wasn't perfect, but having come in with such a short start to a new season, he's moved us dramatically from where we were.

Could he ultimately have reached his goal? We'll never know. I've seen a lot of valid points about his failures throughout this discussion (which has been one of RZ's best, IMO). I just hope this isn't a situation of having moved up so many steps and being set back many more than that. Like others, I'm tired of such a disfunctional team and organization.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 02:36 PM
I'm not so much shocked that they got rid of him, hiring Jocketty was pretty much the writing on the wall that a change would be coming if the team on the field didn't live up to expectations...I'm DEFINITELY shocked that they did it this early.

Shows Bob isn't messing around....

OldRightHander
04-23-2008, 02:37 PM
If you're on the Reds' email list, you get the news after everyone's been talking about it for a while. This just arrived in my email.

Reds Name Walt Jocketty President of Baseball Operations and General Manager

Cincinnati Reds President and Chief Executive Officer Bob Castellini announced Wednesday that special advisor Walt Jocketty has been named President of Baseball Operations and General Manager, replacing Wayne Krivsky.

Jocketty was hired January 11 as special advisor to advise and assist Castellini in every facet of baseball operations, including matters related to the front office, Major League field and support personnel, scouting and minor league and international operations along with training and medical services.

A 33-year veteran of professional baseball, including the previous 13 with St. Louis as general manager, Jocketty's Cardinals teams went to the playoffs seven times. He won the National League Central Division six times and the 2001 NL Wild Card while earning two National League championships and the 2006 World Series title. The Cardinals have produced winning seasons in seven of the last eight years.

While general manager in St. Louis, Jocketty was named Major League Baseball's Executive of the Year by The Sporting News in 2000 and 2004 and by Baseball America in 2000. In 2004, he also received the Rube Foster Legacy Award from the Negro Hall of Fame as National League Executive of the Year.

A press conference will be held at 4:00 p.m. ET live on reds.com.

Caseyfan21
04-23-2008, 02:39 PM
So what's the deal with Jocketty?

I assume he is now full time GM, nothing interim. How long is he signed for? Is he just GM for the rest of this year or is he expected to stay multiple years? I haven't seen answers to these questions and I assume it will be answered during the press conference.

All indications I see is that Walt is in it for the long haul now...

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 02:40 PM
The timing of this move is awful....just awful. Unless there were MAJOR problems in the front office that he was directly responsible for.....

My initial response is this is a bad move....

That's ironic, b/c my initial response is this is a great move.

This isn't a shuffling of the deck chairs on the Titanic move, this is a move by an owner not happy with the team his GM had put on the field.

The status quo wasn't remotely working.

No more status quo.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 02:42 PM
I'm not very pleased with this. You can say goodbye to our strong farm system. After all these years of having nothing in the farm, Wayne was able to build it up into a top notch system. Damn.

Should we dig up your quotes from past threads where you said when Krivsky is no longer the GM it will be a good thing? :D

OldXOhio
04-23-2008, 02:44 PM
That's ironic, b/c my initial response is this is a great move.

This isn't a shuffling of the deck chairs on the Titanic move, this is a move by an owner not happy with the team his GM had put on the field.

The status quo wasn't remotely working.

No more status quo.

Does Cast know enough about building a winner to accurately make this assessment? Or was a special adviser consulting him on it?

lollipopcurve
04-23-2008, 02:45 PM
The status quo wasn't remotely working.

Merry-go-round front offices don't work either. Let's hope they get it right this time, because it's been awhile.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 02:45 PM
Should we dig up your quotes from past threads where you said when Krivsky is no longer the GM it will be a good thing? :Dnothing says "RedsZone" like a good kick in the soft parts while someone is on the ground. :eek:

Benihana
04-23-2008, 02:46 PM
So what's the deal with Jocketty?

I assume he is now full time GM, nothing interim. How long is he signed for? Is he just GM for the rest of this year or is he expected to stay multiple years? I haven't seen answers to these questions and I assume it will be answered during the press conference.

All indications I see is that Walt is in it for the long haul now...

From the Reds website, Jocketty is signed through the 2011 season. By all indications, the Reds' window to contend is now open, 2008-2011.

remdog
04-23-2008, 02:47 PM
I'm certainly surprised by the timing of this but not too surprised by the end result. I thought Krivsky would last until the end of the season but I had a feeling that he wouldn't be back. As far as my opinion of him as a GM, I'm pretty much neutral but Jocketty was the one that made Castellini's eyes sparkle.

I think a number of things lead up to this happening now:
---Krivsky obviously rubbed some people the wrong way, maybe Bob was one of them.
---The outlandish contracts given to players that were, at best, bench fodder. The Dodgers announcers were talking about giving Patterson $3M when no one else was willing to give him $500K as an example. This stuff does not go unnoticed around the league.
---It's entirely possible that Dusty said something like, "I can't win with this roster even though the division is wide open for the taking".
---Jocketty has been in this division for a long, long time and obviously knows the Cards well. He may have told Bob that the Cards will come back to earth and that with some moves the Reds can still swoop in and take this thing.
---There was the story about Castellini and Dunn sharing ribs in Bob's office over the winter and having a great time. Bob wants Dunn signed but it doesn't look like Krivsky was doing anything to make it happen. This may have elevated the friction between Bob and Wayne.

I'm guessing that Dunn gets signed to an extention. I don't worry too much about the Reds trading Bruce because they'll need another OF next year. However, with Volquez and Cueto emerging I could see Bailey being moved and, for the right player, I wouldn't have a problem with that. One of the reasons for having a strong farm system is to produce players that you can trade in order to get solid players to fill the holes you have at the major league level.

Rem

redsfan30
04-23-2008, 02:47 PM
Merry-go-round front offices don't work either. Let's hope they get it right this time, because it's been awhile.

Exactly.

Caseyfan21
04-23-2008, 02:50 PM
I'm guessing that Dunn gets signed to an extention. I don't worry too much about the Reds trading Bruce because they'll need another OF next year. However, with Volquez and Cueto emerging I could see Bailey being moved and, for the right player, I wouldn't have a problem with that. One of the reasons for having a strong farm system is to produce players that you can trade in order to get solid players to fill the holes you have at the major league level.

Rem

I agree with everything you said, but if this team trades Bruce or Bailey they better be very sure they're getting the right pieces in return. This team is on the edge of really putting together a solid core of young talent (so it seems) and if Jocketty decides to take more of a win now mentality than waiting another year or two, he better be careful not to trade away pieces that put the Reds back another 5-7 years if the trades don't pan out.

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 02:54 PM
Ugh of course this would all happen the day before my huge Differential Equations midterm. Now I'm just reading Reds crap all day....Thanks Bob

Aronchis
04-23-2008, 02:54 PM
I agree with everything you said, but if this team trades Bruce or Bailey they better be very sure they're getting the right pieces in return. This team is on the edge of really putting together a solid core of young talent (so it seems) and if Jocketty decides to take more of a win now mentality than waiting another year or two, he better be careful not to trade away pieces that put the Reds back another 5-7 years if the trades don't pan out.

The chance of the Reds trading Bruce is nill. He is almost part of the team right now.

OldRightHander
04-23-2008, 02:55 PM
nothing says "RedsZone" like a good kick in the soft parts while someone is on the ground. :eek:

That's what we're best at.

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 02:55 PM
Does anyone have the pre-Krivsky payroll versus Now???

Effective use of money is a major factor in this, in my opinion.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 02:55 PM
Merry-go-round front offices don't work either. Let's hope they get it right this time, because it's been awhile.

That is true. Let's hope Jocketty is finally the guy Bob has been waiting for.

As Doc said with Willie, the merry-go-round front offices are signs of a losing organization

jojo
04-23-2008, 02:59 PM
Merry-go-round front offices don't work either. Let's hope they get it right this time, because it's been awhile.

Unless there is an unprecedented saber uprising in Cincy's FO, it's not very likely Jocketty will be pushed out Cincy like he was in St Louis.

MartyFan
04-23-2008, 03:01 PM
WOW...I am not excited about this firing at all. I rally like Special K and wish him the very best.

I am so thankful as a Reds fan of what HE has put in place...His ability to identify and trade for undervalued MLB ready players is his major strength.

With Jocketty in place as GM I guess Mr. C is going to be spending more cash on veteran players and trading some of our prospects.

I honestly am surprised by this at this point in the year though I was ready for this boot to drop when Dr. J was hired this past winter.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 03:02 PM
I'm sure Krivsky will land on his feet, maybe not as a GM, but in baseball

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 03:03 PM
You can see the press conference on the Reds website at 4 PM.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 03:06 PM
Krivsky got an opportunity to show BC he could do it w/o the big contracts. And if he had more time I feel he would have eventually got there. Problem is when you have BC as an owner time is not on your side. Especially when you are not making any friends in the meantime. WJ might be the answer for this period in time, I hope so.


That's the whole problem IMO. He did "do it" with big contracts. He had a big contract he inherited (Griffey) plus he added Arroyo, Harang, Phillips, Cordero and Dunn. I think BC expected WK to run the Reds like the Minn Twins.

Any GM will make a few expensive boo boos but I think WK's were excessive. Without argument he overpaid for Cormier, Stanton, Castro, Stanton, Patterson, Freel, David Ross, and there were others who are debatable. Was Jason LaRue his doing or was that OB?

He also jettisoned fairly cheap talent that we could have used like Cody Ross, Brendan Harris and Jorge Cantu. We could probably also add Chris Denorfia to that list.

Overall WK didn't give BC what he was looking for so he's gone...

KoryMac5
04-23-2008, 03:06 PM
If KrivDawg was fired this early into the season it shows how bad the work environment had gotten inside the Reds FO. I don't think Jocketty went looking for Krivsky's job, rather he reluctantly signed on after Cast convinced him too. I would imagine Jocketty will stay around for 3 or 4 years while grooming a replacement.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 03:07 PM
Should we dig up your quotes from past threads where you said when Krivsky is no longer the GM it will be a good thing? :D

Yeah go ahead because you'll have a very hard time finding them considering I haven't said that.

BRM
04-23-2008, 03:10 PM
More from Daugherty:



Wayne Krivsky, Part 2

Wayne Krivsky was fired because ownership tired of writing checks to players who no longer played or who were paid too much for what they contribute now. See: Freel, Patterson, Coffey. Maybe more, though, he was fired because his people skills lacked. Wayne was a very territorial GM, who didnt always play well with others. That trait cost the Reds some good people, not the least of whom was Johnny Almaraz, the scout who found Johnny Cueto, among many, many others.

It must also be said that Wayne made some very good moves here... Brandon Phillips, Josh Hamilton, Arroyo for Wily Mo, Keppinger for a Class A pitcher, David Ross, Hatteberg, Burton in Rule 5 etc...

The danger with this coming when it did is (1) when you fire a GM, it's not like firing a manager... you essentially fire his support people as well...scouts, advisors etc... Front office continuity is a trait of successful clubs. See: Atlanta, Minnesota. The Reds front office is a carousel. That needs to stop.

Also, the draft is less than 2 months away... what do wayne's people do? Do they stay on? Are they let go? If they stay, how enthusiastic will they be, knowing they'll likely be out of work at the end of the year?

I got along well with Wayne, though he was as close to the vest, borderline paranoid a guy as I've dealt with. Sometimes, his silence was very effective: The Reds got F. Cordero before the Brewers even knew Cincinnati was interested. But it could also be off-putting.

I wish Wayne the best. I think he's a good baseball guy. Maybe scouting better suits his temperament.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 03:12 PM
Unless there is an unprecedented saber uprising in Cincy's FO, it's not very likely Jocketty will be pushed out Cincy like he was in St Louis.

Exactly. Jocketty and Krivksy are cut from the same philosophical cloth. They may differ in execution, but I don't think we're going to see a philosophical sea change here.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 03:14 PM
Ugh of course this would all happen the day before my huge Differential Equations midterm. Now I'm just reading Reds crap all day....Thanks Bob

You'll thank him for that some day.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 03:15 PM
Jocketty replaces Krivsky as Reds' GM
Longtime Cardinals executive moves up from advisor role
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- When former Cardinals general manager Walt Jocketty -- a friend of Reds owner Bob Castellini -- was brought into Cincinnati's front office this past winter, many perceived it as a clear sign that Reds GM Wayne Krivsky's job was in jeopardy.

Few expected a change would happen this soon. But Castellini ran out of patience and Krivsky ran out of time.

The Reds announced on Wednesday that Krivsky was out as GM and that Jocketty will take over as president of baseball operations and general manager.

Jocketty and Castellini are scheduled to hold a 4 p.m. ET press conference at Great American Ball Park.

"We had a lousy season last year and we're starting this season not very well," Castellini told MLB.com by phone. "We felt it was time for a change."

Krivsky was Castellini and the new ownership regime's first significant hire when he replaced Dan O'Brien on Feb. 8, 2006. Krivsky previously served as an assistant GM with the Twins for 11 years. He was in the last season of a three-year contract with Cincinnati.

The Reds went 80-82 in Krivsky's first season but slipped to 72-90 in 2007. This season, Cincinnati has a 9-12 record.

Castellini informed Krivsky of his decision on Wednesday morning.

"He gave us 110 percent," Castellini said. "He is an outstanding baseball man and it's difficult to lose somebody like him."

Krivsky drew praise quickly when he made shrewd acquisitions that brought in Brandon Phillips, Scott Hatteberg, Bronson Arroyo, David Ross and Josh Hamilton. But other efforts to turn the team into a quick contender backfired.

The most notorious trade occurred on July 13, 2006, when the Reds sent Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez to the Nationals in an eight-player deal that brought back Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris and Daryl Thompson.

It was disclosed shortly after the trade that Majewski arrived with an injured shoulder, and he never fulfilled expectations. He and Bray are currently with Triple-A Louisville while Clayton and Harris are out of the organization. Thompson, with Double-A Chattanooga, is considered a rising prospect.

The signing of free agent reliever Mike Stanton to a two-year contract last year also didn't pan out. Stanton was released before this season opened and will be paid $3.5 million this year. Reliever Rheal Cormier ($2.5 million) was released early last season and infielder Juan Castro ($1.075 million) was designated for assignment on Monday.

Castellini said it wasn't absorbing contracts that got Krivsky dismissed.

"Frankly, I blame it on my own impatience," Castellini said. "I wouldn't say that it was a particular thing. We're not going to bat 1.000 [on acquisitions]. The results were not there."

Castellini said Jocketty was signed through the 2011 season.

Jocketty spent the previous 13 seasons as the Cardinals GM. They went to the postseason seven times and won the 2006 World Series during that time. Jocketty was named Major League Baseball's executive of the year by The Sporting News in 2000 and 2004 and by Baseball America in 2000.

In October, Jocketty and St. Louis mutually decided to part ways after a tumultuous 78-win season. He maintained a personal friendship with Castellini, who used to be a minority shareholder of the Cardinals.

On January 11, Jocketty was hired to be a special advisor who reported directly to Castellini. Although he made overtures that he wasn't interested in being a GM again right away, that's just what ended up happening on Wednesday.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080423&content_id=2573957&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 03:16 PM
I'm guessing that Dunn gets signed to an extention. I don't worry too much about the Reds trading Bruce because they'll need another OF next year. However, with Volquez and Cueto emerging I could see Bailey being moved and, for the right player, I wouldn't have a problem with that. One of the reasons for having a strong farm system is to produce players that you can trade in order to get solid players to fill the holes you have at the major league level.

Rem


I see it that way too but one thing does trouble me. Let's say the Reds trade Bailey to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp. Aren't they just reversing what they did by trading Hamilton to Texas?

membengal
04-23-2008, 03:18 PM
Kemp's a right-handed stick with a world of talent. And only 22 or 23. So, younger, different side of the plate, and with talent that has been compared to Dave Winfield. I would love for them to get Kemp. I just don't think they can.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 03:20 PM
That's what we're best at.

I don't know. This site needs more of "digging up the past". We spend all kinds of bandwidth arguing over this player or that trade and only time decides who ultimately was right. Unforunately most folks are too busy fighting today's battles to settle yesterday's.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 03:21 PM
I hope they don't cry at this press conference...

jojo
04-23-2008, 03:24 PM
I see it that way too but one thing does trouble me. Let's say the Reds trade Bailey to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp. Aren't they just reversing what they did by trading Hamilton to Texas?

In a good way....trading a lot more risk for a lot less risk that also happens to fit a primary need.

Always Red
04-23-2008, 03:25 PM
I'm going to miss the yearly "diamonds in the rough" that Wayne was unable to unearth.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 03:25 PM
Matt Kemp, Wladimir Balentien, and Adam Jones are the guys I'd love to see Jocketty go after, with any of the following guys as trade bait- although I wouldn't give up Bailey for Balentien:

Homer Bailey
Matt Maloney
Juan Francisco
Alex Gonzalez

Aronchis
04-23-2008, 03:26 PM
The Reds need for a right handed bat is overblown.

I don't see anything big happening anytime soon.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-23-2008, 03:28 PM
I see it that way too but one thing does trouble me. Let's say the Reds trade Bailey to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp. Aren't they just reversing what they did by trading Hamilton to Texas?

Yes and if it was possible to trade Bailey and Hamilton to a team for Volquez and Kemp I would hope they'd do it every day of the week.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 03:29 PM
The Reds need for a right handed bat is overblown.



Um. Ok.

lollipopcurve
04-23-2008, 03:38 PM
"Frankly, I blame it on my own impatience," Castellini said.

Don't make it a pattern, Bob. There isn't a win-lose switch that just takes flipping.

An impatient owner in a small/mid market is a liability.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 03:42 PM
Um. Ok.


He's got a point. If you're looking for a RH pinch hitter, that's great but unless you're going to double switch with him, that's a bullet in your gun you only get to use once.

Topcat
04-23-2008, 03:42 PM
How soon before Jocketty starts trading all our young prospects?


that's my greatest fear, the quick fix theory. Homer could be gone real fast:thumbdown, so could Waring and other kids of promise. I sure hope not but I will put my faith in Walt as he is a wise man and hopefully in tune with the dynamics of what the Red's organization needs and can afford.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 03:43 PM
He's got a point. If you're looking for a RH pinch hitter, that's great but unless you're going to double switch with him, that's a bullet in your gun you only get to use once.

He can play against lefties...

remdog
04-23-2008, 03:57 PM
I see it that way too but one thing does trouble me. Let's say the Reds trade Bailey to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp. Aren't they just reversing what they did by trading Hamilton to Texas?

I see your point but a couple of factors have changed since that trade.

#1. Volquez and Cueto have actually performed better than most expected and, even though it's early in the season, the confidence that they will fill big slots has increased.

#2. The further into the season the Reds go the more obvious the need for another solid OF grows (until/unless Dunn and JR are resigned) and the more information the Reds have about what pitching is in the pipeline.

Your choice of Kemp as an example is interesting: he's a young guy with a world of talent and a RH bat (whereas Hamilton is, of course, LH) and he doesn't have the baggage that Hammy has. I'd make that trade yesterday although I don't think the Dodgers would. But, sometimes there are ways to make things happen and maybe that's why Castellini has turned to an experience GM like Jocketty who knows the landscape. (famous shrug)

Rem

Az Red
04-23-2008, 03:59 PM
Ugh of course this would all happen the day before my huge Differential Equations midterm. Now I'm just reading Reds crap all day....Thanks Bob

I think we all learned a new mathematical fact today:

dK/dt = 0

Raisor
04-23-2008, 03:59 PM
I got no problem with this. Jock is a vet that knows how to play the game.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 04:00 PM
Was Cody Ross not picked up during the season? It doesn't matter either way.

Maybe you are right. It might've been the beginning of the season. Still Wayne hit the ground running when he was hired. Which was a good thing after DanO's lackadaisal and apathetic approach.

I will say that Wayne worked hard at his job. I didn't agree with everything he did, but he worked hard.

remdog
04-23-2008, 04:03 PM
that's my greatest fear, the quick fix theory. Homer could be gone real fast:thumbdown, so could Waring and other kids of promise. I sure hope not but I will put my faith in Walt as he is a wise man and hopefully in tune with the dynamics of what the Red's organization needs and can afford.

Once again, one of the reasons for wanting to build a strong farm system is so that you have players to trade to fill holes on the big league team. No one should fear trading a minor league player, they should fear trading a minor league player without getting proper value. To some degree, even though it wasn't a trade of a minor leaguer, Krivsky showed that he couldn't get proper value back when he traded Kearnes and Lopez.

As someone else mentioned in another thread, it's great to have a highly rated farm system but if all it produces is 'out-of-the-money' majore league teams then it's not really doing you any good.

Rem

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 04:03 PM
Wayne was a very territorial GM, who didnt always play well with others. That trait cost the Reds some good people, not the least of whom was Johnny Almaraz, the scout who found Johnny Cueto, among many, many others.

In hindsight, this was a rather large red-flag waving over the Krivsky Administration.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 04:05 PM
No..2, he came on in Feb of 2006... a week before pitchers and catchers


Ok, he had about 2 or 2.5 months before the season started.
The offseason is roughly 6 months long, including spring training.
So Wayne had about 2.3 offseasons.. is that accurate enough for you :)

The point is, Wayne had time to make some of his changes on the 2006 squad
before the season started, and he took advantage of it. Which is good.

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:06 PM
Jocketty says at the presser that he was approached just last night by Castellini about accepting a promotion.

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 04:06 PM
In hindsight, this was a rather large red-flag waving over the Krivsky Administration.

You know CE, when JA was fired I remember aruging vehmently that it was par for the course, what you'd expect with a changing ragime, etc. People were indicting Wayne and I was trying to make the point that maybe JA was the problem and it didn't have to mean Wayne was a big, bad meanie.

Obviously, in retrospect as you point out, I was gravely mistaken. Maybe JA was a big jerk, but obivously there was some truth to the rumors and whispers about Wayne. That was a big time strike-out on my part.

Having Cueto doing so well has to have a lot of JA supporters thinking, "vindication".

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:08 PM
Jocketty says that he will change the culture/mindset of the organization, to convince everyone that the Reds can win. He wants to surround himself with "positive people."

Chip R
04-23-2008, 04:08 PM
He can play against lefties...


Where?

Az Red
04-23-2008, 04:08 PM
Unassisted hit the 'positive' comment. I guess this does point out the building tension in the front office. Bob made the insinuation that Wayne was not deligating anything but tried to make all the decisions himself.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:09 PM
Where?

I don't even remember who we're talking about :lol:

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:09 PM
Bob says the decision was made because they've come to a point where "they're just not going to lose anymore."

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:10 PM
Bob says the decision was made because they've come to a point where "they're just not going to lose anymore."

So, they're going unbeaten the rest of the year!!!

:rockband:

lollipopcurve
04-23-2008, 04:10 PM
Jocketty just made an interesting comment about having positive people in the front office...

Definitely agree, so long as this is not a euphemism for yes men...

Strikes Out Looking
04-23-2008, 04:10 PM
Anybody else think this has to do with ticket sales for this season?

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 04:10 PM
:
Here's what Cots say of Dunn's contract:


Quote:
If club exercised 2008 option, Dunn receives full no-trade clause until 6/15/2008 & limited no-trade clause for the remainder of 2008 (allowing Dunn specify 10 clubs to which he would accept a trade)




The thing is Dunn could pull a stunt like many players have done and list Tampa, Pittsburg, and 8 other teams that would not pick him up.

Or he could list the 1-2 teams he wants to go to, and then 8 that would not take him.

Sure, we could trade him to Tampa out of spite for nothing, but that's not productive.

But you are right, at least that leaves a little window for trading Dunn. It will still be tough though.

lollipopcurve
04-23-2008, 04:12 PM
Bob says the decision was made because they've come to a point where "they're just not going to lose anymore."

sigh

Bob, put the blunt instrument down. Everybody got the message a while back.

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 04:12 PM
Anybody else think this has to do with ticket sales for this season?

Not sure, but GABP has been dead empty the few games I've watched on TV and the 5 games I've attended. One of those days (forget which one) I swear you could swing a dead cat and not hit another spectator.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:12 PM
sigh

Bob, put the blunt instrument down. Everybody got the message a while back.



Do you want him to say losing is ok?

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 04:12 PM
Bob says the decision was made because they've come to a point where "they're just not going to lose anymore."If he reacts this way to a 9-12 start who is getting fired when this team hits a long losing streak. As bad as this start has been this team has not even hit the brutal part of the schedule yet. That comes in June.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 04:13 PM
I would suggest again, that he had only two offseasons - once Spring Training starts, the offseason is over - it's the new season. .

Ok, I consider the 2 months of spring training to be the offseason, since the games don't count and moves can still be made.
Truth is, he had time to make some moves before the season started, and he took advantage of that. If he's hired after the season starts, Arroyo is probably already dealt to another club, for example.

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 04:13 PM
CRAP!!! The press conference link won't load for me!!!!! :(

Strikes Out Looking
04-23-2008, 04:14 PM
Not sure, but GABP has been dead empty the few games I've watched on TV and the 5 games I've attended. One of those days (forget which one) I swear you could swing a dead cat and not hit another spectator.

My point exactly--this shakeup and Castellini saying "we aren't tolerating losing" in April might be his shot at putting a few more people in the seats.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 04:14 PM
I want someone to ask him what his opinion on leather clothing is...

WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 04:14 PM
I guess I should weigh in on this. I've resisted most of the afternoon, but here goes.

1. I hate to see anyone lose their job, even Wayne Krivsky. I didn't like him from before he was hired. I thought he did an average job with some wins and some losses, but he always seemed to make a good decision folowed by two bad ones. I wasn't surprised at his replacement.
2. Last night, I called the Extra Innings show and Doc mentioned the player moves. i felt he knew something was coming as he talked to me. Apparently he did.
3. Regardless of how RedsZone felt, there were many strikes against him.

Of the 36 moves someone else listed on here, IMHO there were 17 good moves and 17 bad ones with 2 I would consider were either good and bad or all the information is not yet in on. I also counted about $10 million in DFA'd contracts, not counting what was owed Jerry Narron (which wasn't much) and there may be more.

The biggest sin that might have got him canned was the lack of improvement in the club's W-L record. It was getting worse rather than better. Add to that the rocky start and the horrible condition of the 25-man roster and the fact that despite two brilliant (to some) acquisitions to the pitching staff, there were still Belisles and Foggs (who he acquired) around. I think Cast saw a train wreck and decided to fire the engineer.

Why now? Because there no time to try to right the wrongs than now. I had a former boss that always said waiting for some event to fire someone was a waste of time and money.

Will the good young players be traded. No. jocketty wasn't an awarded GM for doing stupid things. I think this is a step toward winning. I may be wrong, but the rookie GM didn't cut it with Casty. He wasn't his man after all. Jocketty is.

Team Clark
04-23-2008, 04:14 PM
CRAP!!! The press conference link won't load for me!!!!! :(

same here

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:15 PM
Walt says they want to "raise the revenue and hopefully increase the payroll."

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 04:16 PM
Some press conference quotes from Fay's blog:


Bob Castellini:

"I don't think anyone in the organization is happy with the results in a won-loss basis. We've had two losing seasons under the new ownershp. We started this season poorly ... and that's the primary reason we made the change."

"This has been a very tough decision. And Wayne Krivsky did a whale of a job in so many areas. We've just come to a point where ... we're just not going to lose any more."

Walt Jocketty:

"Bob came to me last night and asked if I was ready to do this for him. We talked about it for a while and it's been 6 months ... it was a tough decision. I talked to my wife, my kids. I knew this was tough for Bob. I know it's tough replacing Wayne. ... I'm charged up and ready to go and I think this organization is going in the right direction. I talked to Bob quite a bit a few years ago when he was contemplating buying this franchise and we talked at the time about what a great franchise this was, the history of the franchise, and how it was very similar to the situation I had in St. Louis, with a winning tradition, great fans and great community. But they hadn't won in St. Louis in a long time either. So there are a lot of similarities."

"Trust me, me and Dusty are very motivated. We're both guys with a vendetta and chip on our shoulders."

"I think one thing I talked with Dusty about today ... we need to change the culture and mindset to have everyone believe we can win. ... You have to surround yourself with positive people. We'll evaluate that in the coming weeks and months."

"It's a great ownership group. That's the main reason I came here in the first place. ... I know how dedicated they are in making this a first-class organization and a winning franchise."

"Both Dusty and I hate losing. We're not going to stand for it."

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 04:16 PM
CRAP!!! The press conference link won't load for me!!!!! :(

Same here.

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:17 PM
About retaining current FO staff, Walt says he plans to "trust these people and give them an opportunity." "Everyone will have a very fair opportunity."

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 04:17 PM
Does Cast know enough about building a winner to accurately make this assessment? Or was a special adviser consulting him on it?

Krivsky didn't give Cast a winner.

Cast knows what Jocketty has done, and can do. Now we get to see if Jocketty will give Cast a winner.

I might be alone, but I'm eager to see what happens.

Strikes Out Looking
04-23-2008, 04:18 PM
"Eating contracts was a factor" but "not an overriding factor"

Team Clark
04-23-2008, 04:19 PM
Positive people. Guess Marty and Butcher need to do a self check LOL! :D

BRM
04-23-2008, 04:19 PM
"Eating contracts was a factor"

Did Cast say that?

Strikes Out Looking
04-23-2008, 04:20 PM
Did Cast say that?

Cast

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:20 PM
Positive people. Guess Marty and Butcher need to do a self check LOL! :DMore George Grande! :D

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:20 PM
I lost my audio when WLW cut away from the presser. :(

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:21 PM
Homer may still have it on...

EDIT: Nevermind. They don't.

Strikes Out Looking
04-23-2008, 04:22 PM
press conference over. Last question had Jocketty saying he would delegate more things (he didn't say more than Wayne or more than he had in St. L)

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:22 PM
Homer may still have it on...Not on XM. I couldn't get the Homer streaming to load when I tried it earlier today.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 04:22 PM
Positive people. Guess Marty and Butcher need to do a self check LOL! :Dmaybe the poofy haired fancy boy will get an attitude adjustment(not likely).

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 04:22 PM
More quotes from Walt:


"I will at some point (address the team). I've discussed that with the staff a little bit today. ... We may wait until we get on the road to do it."

"At some point we may have to change the personnel but right now we're going to stay with the guys we have."

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 04:23 PM
I see it that way too but one thing does trouble me. Let's say the Reds trade Bailey to the Dodgers for Matt Kemp. Aren't they just reversing what they did by trading Hamilton to Texas?

The difference is Volquez is ready now, and contributing. Bailey's still developing in AAA.

I see it like this.... Volquez (now) > Bailey (now) ..... Kemp (now) > Hamilton (now)

It's very possible that Bailey could be better than Volquez in the future, and it's very possible that Hamilton could be better than Kemp in the future, but if we're playing for now (as Cast has stated), then turning Bailey and Hamilton into Volquez and Kemp help that goal.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:23 PM
Is that a hint that Bruce could be on his way up sooner than later?

BRM
04-23-2008, 04:23 PM
maybe the poofy haired fancy boy will get an attitude adjustment(not likely).

Doubtful. He was here before everyone else got here.

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 04:23 PM
Why now? Because there no time to try to right the wrongs than now. I had a former boss that always said waiting for some event to fire someone was a waste of time and money.

Agree 1000%

If you are going to make a major move like that, make it, move forward and don't dilly-dally about it. BCast doesn't strike me as a manager/owner who would be subject to getting all twisted in knots over analyizing something.

I'd much rather he make the change now than waiting until the season is in the tank. Besides wasting the entire season, you lose a lot of trading leverage when you are out of the race and people know you are just dismanteling the team for the next year's campaign.

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 04:23 PM
Is that a hint that Bruce could be on his way up sooner than later?From that quote above sounds like they are staying with who they have for now.

flyer85
04-23-2008, 04:24 PM
Is that a hint that Bruce could be on his way up sooner than later?first Jocketty has to figure out how best to take the garbage to the curb, then they can move forward.

Team Clark
04-23-2008, 04:24 PM
maybe the poofy haired fancy boy will get an attitude adjustment(not likely).

I think Bob would have to be the one to do that. It could happen. Maybe

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 04:24 PM
The thing is Dunn could pull a stunt like many players have done and list Tampa, Pittsburg, and 8 other teams that would not pick him up.

Or he could list the 1-2 teams he wants to go to, and then 8 that would not take him.

Sure, we could trade him to Tampa out of spite for nothing, but that's not productive.

But you are right, at least that leaves a little window for trading Dunn. It will still be tough though.

I guess there's some possibility of him playing a game like that, but then again, Tampa's got some horses that would be great to have. They're an up and coming organization with a growing stable of young talent.

That said, such games are possible, but I don't think likely. But we're not as hamstrung after June 15th - I think Dunn's going to want to go where he can win. Neither of us have any way of knowing who those clubs will be.

Then again, a trade could be arranged with Dunn getting a window to negotiate a LTC with another club and waive the no-trade clause. That potentially opens up other possibilities, although it's not likely to happen.

I think the more likely possibility is that after reaching 600 HR's, we find an acceptable trade partner for Griffey.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:25 PM
From that quote above sounds like they are staying with who they have for now.

Key words...FOR NOW.

He has to get a closer look at everything before he starts tinkering.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 04:25 PM
I can't seem to get this press conference on Reds.com. Where can I link to it?

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:25 PM
Is that a hint that Bruce could be on his way up sooner than later?I think the only difference is that Castellini will better accept the message that Homer isn't ready if it comes from Jocketty.

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:26 PM
I can't seem to get this press conference on Reds.com. Where can I link to it?It's over. You'll have to wait for the archive to be posted.

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 04:27 PM
Well the press conference is over. Some thoughts

Did Castellini not look absolutely exhausted? And he jumped some reporters tailend for including the previous ownerships GM changes in with his. He was harsh there.

Several times, I heard Jockety talk about delegating jobs. He said it enough times that it makes me think this may have been an issue.

I like Jockety's demeanor. I hope he doesn't empty the icebox too much.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 04:28 PM
It's over. You'll have to wait for the archive to be posted.

OK, I linked on at 3:58pm. Did they have it before 4pm?

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:28 PM
I think Bob would have to be the one to do that. It could happen. MaybeIf getting fans to come to the ballpark and not be boobirds when they get there are goals, then Bob should be willing to deliver that message.

membengal
04-23-2008, 04:29 PM
The main message I got from Castellini from the presser?

He is REAL tired of losing. REAL tired. From Cast:

"We're just not going to lose anymore."

Ya know what? I like that stated from him. And actions to match. Good, I'm fine with this now. Good luck Cast. I like the effort and the bottom line expectation...

MikeS21
04-23-2008, 04:29 PM
I suppose I'll throw my two cents into the discussion.

Jocketty was originally brought in as an advisor to Castelinni. It was obvious that Krivsky's leash was considerably shortened. And I doubt that WK's poor people skills played well with Bob or Walt.

Philosophically, I'm not looking for any major differences. The one area Walt may be able to improve the club is by bringing some stability to the FO. It may be too late to bring back guys lie Johnny Almarez, but who knows what the off season may bring?

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:30 PM
OK, I linked on at 3:58pm. Did they have it before 4pm?I think the presser started about 4:02. I tried to open the feed at reds.com at 4:20 when WLW dropped its coverage and it wasn't there.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 04:30 PM
I got along well with Wayne, though he was as close to the vest, borderline paranoid a guy as I've dealt with. Sometimes, his silence was very effective: The Reds got F. Cordero before the Brewers even knew Cincinnati was interested. But it could also be off-putting.:

I kind of doubt this is true.
The Brewers GM said they made Cordero an offer. Cordero came back saying he got a little bit more from the Reds and wanted the Brewers to up their offer. The Brewers GM said that he wasn't getting into a bidding war and made their best offer.

Cordero was out to maximize his paycheck.Nothing wrong with that.

It's not believable that one morning the Brewers GM was stunned and surprised that Cincy came out of nowhere and scooped up Cordero

redsmetz
04-23-2008, 04:31 PM
OK, I linked on at 3:58pm. Did they have it before 4pm?

I ended up going to one of the TV stations for their live feed.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 04:31 PM
I see it like this.... Volquez (now) > Bailey (now) ..... Kemp (now) > Hamilton (now)



I get the Volquez/Bailey thing but how can you say Kemp>Hamilton while Hamilton is putting up such numbers in Texas?

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 04:32 PM
Very interesting interview with bob on WLW ....

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 04:32 PM
I learned one thing for sure with Castellini.

We seen it with Narron, we seen it with Mac and now we have seen it with Krivsky. I learned you don’t want him to compliment you, it is like the kiss on the cheek, soon you will be gone.

Krusty
04-23-2008, 04:33 PM
The reasons for firing Krivsky?

1. The horrible trade with Washington.

2. Numerous eating of contracts despite being two year deals (Castro, Stanton, Cormier). Underperforming contracts (Patterson, Freel and Coffey).

3. Relationships with front office employees (see Johnny Alvarez).

Bottom line we don't know what was going on behind the scenes in the Reds front office. But I think ownership didn't like the direction Krivsky was going with this club.

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 04:34 PM
I get the Volquez/Bailey thing but how can you say Kemp>Hamilton while Hamilton is putting up such numbers in Texas?

I think he is saying Kemp > Hamilton in terms of being a better fit for the Reds.

Kemp is a righty. Doesn't have the baggage. Maybe less injury prone (not sure about that).

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:34 PM
Did Castellini not look absolutely exhausted? And he jumped some reporters tailend for including the previous ownerships GM changes in with his. He was harsh there.It was Hall of Famer Hal McCoy who got the brunt of that one. I was surprised. :eek:


Several times, I heard Jockety talk about delegating jobs. He said it enough times that it makes me think this may have been an issue.
Considering that Walt has the additional title of Club President of Baseball Operations, he'll have more need to delegate. I'm sure the short notice gave Jocketty had a lot of leverage to dictate the terms of his new role.

Aronchis
04-23-2008, 04:37 PM
Jock doesn't sound much like "GMing" at all. Probably looking who he can get in this offseason. Sounds like Wayne's officers will be the GM as temps.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 04:39 PM
If he reacts this way to a 9-12 start who is getting fired when this team hits a long losing streak. As bad as this start has been this team has not even hit the brutal part of the schedule yet. That comes in June.

Bob said that last season's disaster played a big part in it too.
I think it was mighty patient of Bob to give Wayne more offseason to fix things.

Let's face it, Wayne spent basically the entire winter picking up Volquez and little else after winning the Cordero bidding war. That's not going to impress Cast after coming off a 72 win season. It's a clear case of Wayne not implementing the Boss' plan. I'm surprised Wayne wasn't canned at the end of last season. Bob has been amazingly patient. He sees this year's team for what it is.. only marginally better than last year, and a team that will not win 81 games (.500) without changes.

reds44
04-23-2008, 04:40 PM
I saw this at school, and needless to so I was shocked. I just didn't see this coming, not right now. It's really, really stange timing. I think everyone thought the heat was on Krivsky when Walt was hired by Cast, but if that was the overriding factor, why not just give Wayne the boot in the offseason? Even if he fired up after the 1-7 stretch, you could have pointed at it. Coming off a big win 19 games into the season? It's just strange. I'm curious to know if something happend between Krivsky and somebody with the club a night or so ago. It just come out of the left field.

As for the firing, I'm sort of indifferent. It certainly isn't as easy as the Bowden, O'Brien, Boone, Miley, or Narron firings. Krivsky did some good things, and he did some bad thing. He rebuilt 40% of the rotation, but other than that what has he made better? The offense is much worse. The bullpen is probably about the same, maybe alittle better. The defense and bench are still awful.

If there is one thing I think people are giving Krivsky too much credit for, it's the farm season. For the most part, these aren't his guys. The only thing he has done is really not mess it up. Cueto, Bruce, Bailey, Votto, and Encarnacion were all guys who were here already. He has acquire some "interesting" prospects, but he certainly has not rebuilt the Reds farm system, that goes to Dan O'Brien, Krivsky just did a good job not messing it up.

In the end, we haven't won under Krivsky. I guess nobody can defend him for that.

Team Clark
04-23-2008, 04:40 PM
It was Hall of Famer Hal McCoy who got the brunt of that one. I was surprised. :eek:

Yikes... Hal's tough. He can take it.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 04:42 PM
I get the Volquez/Bailey thing but how can you say Kemp>Hamilton while Hamilton is putting up such numbers in Texas?

Kemp's not playing everyday.

Only Joe Torre has the answer as to why, for us.

Hamilton also still struggles vs. LHP. I'm not saying it as a knock on him, just pointing it out as fact. I also wonder if Hamilton will be able to hold up for a full season of 140+ games.

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:42 PM
I learned one thing for sure with Castellini.

We seen it with Narron, we seen it with Mac and now we have seen it with Krivsky. I learned you don’t want him to compliment you, it is like the kiss on the cheek, soon you will be gone.Bob complimented Dusty Baker during the post-presser interview on WLW.

He also mentioned his disgust over the team's recent "lackadaisical play."

http://www.cugy.net/forums/images/smilies/uhoh.gif

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:43 PM
Be afraid, Dusty...be very afraid ;)

Aronchis
04-23-2008, 04:43 PM
Bob complimented Dusty Baker during the post-presser interview on WLW.

He also mentioned his disgust over the team's recent "lackadaisical play."

http://www.cugy.net/forums/images/smilies/uhoh.gif

Yeah, like 21 games will tell you that much;)

I think Cast needs some prozac.

Highlifeman21
04-23-2008, 04:44 PM
I think he is saying Kemp > Hamilton in terms of being a better fit for the Reds.

Kemp is a righty. Doesn't have the baggage. Maybe less injury prone (not sure about that).

That was also part of it.

The LHB/RHB thing doesn't bother me that much, unless the player has really bad splits. Hamilton could only hit RHP.

Kemp should play in more games a year than Hamilton over the rest of their careers.

I think Kemp is a great fit for the Reds. Hopefully Jocketty can make that a reality.

BCubb2003
04-23-2008, 04:44 PM
If only we could have O'Brien's farm system, Krivsky's rotation, Bowden's bullpen, Krivsky's bargains ...

or maybe just the ghost of Bob Howsam (without the free agents) ...

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Doubtful. He was here before everyone else got here.


And he'll be here long after everyone else is gone. :lol:

Marty will still be on the airwaves, even after the apocolypse when baseball games are no longer played. He is the Cincinnati Reds after all (in his own mind at least) :lol:

I'm guessing Marty will like this move. He's been pretty critical of this team lately and I remember that he accused Wayne of lying within a few days (might've been yesterday). Marty basically said Wayne was a liar, just like Bowden in a roundabout way .. Said something like "Well, we're used to getting lies from the GM"..

Chip R
04-23-2008, 04:45 PM
I think the presser started about 4:02. I tried to open the feed at reds.com at 4:20 when WLW dropped its coverage and it wasn't there.

4:20, huh? I think that was your problem. :pimp:

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Walt JeKetty :)

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:48 PM
Walt JeKetty :)Or the famous Yankee pitcher Dave Rocketty. :D

Az Red
04-23-2008, 04:49 PM
Walt JeKetty :)

Eddie and Tracy are hammering her for saying that.

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 04:50 PM
4:20, huh? I think that was your problem. :pimp:I did notice I was hungry after I couldn't find the feed. Maybe there's a connection? :D

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 04:51 PM
I guess there's some possibility of him playing a game like that, but then again, Tampa's got some horses that would be great to have. They're an up and coming organization with a growing stable of young talent.

That said, such games are possible, but I don't think likely. But we're not as hamstrung after June 15th - I think Dunn's going to want to go where he can win. Neither of us have any way of knowing who those clubs will be.

Then again, a trade could be arranged with Dunn getting a window to negotiate a LTC with another club and waive the no-trade clause. That potentially opens up other possibilities, although it's not likely to happen.

I think the more likely possibility is that after reaching 600 HR's, we find an acceptable trade partner for Griffey.

It's a pretty delicate situation though. If you go to Dunn or Jr and ask for the list of clubs they want to be traded to, chances are that you at least partially burn the bridge with both of them.
Dunn isn't going to want to hear his name in trade rumors for 6-8 weeks.
We all know that Dunn and Jr are best buddies, so if you approach one or both of them about a trade, you risk Dunn throwing up his hands and testing FA..

The problem with Dunn listing Tampa as a trading partner is that there's no way they are going to trade for him. It's not that Tampa doesn't have talent. They won't take his salary. Heck, even if the Reds paid Dunn's entire salary, why would they want to give up prospects rent Dunn for 1/2 a year? Renting Dunn only makes sense to contenders. All Dunn has to do to block a trade is list small market teams that aren't contending.

But back to the other point, if you approach Dunn about a trade and you can't get a good return for him, you've kind of hosed yourself when you go to the negotiation table to resign him. I'm guessing Wayne tested the waters for Dunn last year and didn't get many appealing offers, at least the rumors were that Wayne was testing Dunn's trade value.

BCubb2003
04-23-2008, 04:53 PM
Or the famous Yankee pitcher Dave Rocketty. :D

Betty SpeKetty?

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:55 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080423&content_id=2573957&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 04:58 PM
Wayne's moves:

2-12-06: Scott Hatteberg signed to a one-year, $750K deal.
2-13-06: Adam Dunn signed to two-year, $18.5MM extension.
3-20-06: Acquired Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena.
3-21-06: Acquired David Ross for Bobby Basham.
4-7-06: Acquired Brandon Phillips for Jeff Stevens.
5-26-06: Traded Cody Ross to Marlins for a player to be named later.
June '06: Selected Drew Stubbs eighth overall in draft.
7-6-06: Acquired Eddie Guardado for Travis Chick.
7-13-06: Acquired Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris, and Daryl Thompson for Austin Kearns, Felipe Lopez, and Ryan Wagner.
7-26-06: Signed Hatteberg to a one-year, $1.65MM extension.
7-31-06: Acquired Rheal Cormier for Justin Germano.
7-31-06: Acquired Kyle Lohse for Zach Ward.
8-7-06: Acquired Ryan Franklin for a player to be named later.
8-16-06: Acquired Scott Schoeneweis for a player to be named later.
8-28-06: Signed Javier Valentin to a one-year, $1.325MM extension.
9-25-06: Signed Juan Castro to a two-year, $2MM extension.
11-20-06: Signed Alex Gonzalez to a three-year, $14MM contract.
11-20-06: Signed Mike Stanton to a two-year, $5.5MM contract.
11-20-06: Traded Jason LaRue to the Royals for a player to be named later.
12-7-06: Acquired Josh Hamilton for cash.
12-7-06: Selected Jared Burton in Rule 5 draft.
12-12-06: Signed David Weathers to a two-year, $5MM contract.
1-2-07: Traded Brendan Harris to Rays for cash.
1-10-07: Acquired Jeff Keppinger for Russ Haltiwanger.
2-6-07: Signed Aaron Harang to a four-year, $36.5MM extension.
2-8-07: Signed Bronson Arroyo to a two-year, $25MM extension.
4-16-07: Signed Ryan Freel to a two-year, $7MM extension.
4-27-07: Traded Chris Denorfia to A's for Marcus McBeth and another player.
5-9-07: Released Rheal Cormier.
June '07: Selected Devin Mesoraco 15th overall in draft.
10-31-07: Exercised '08 options on Hatteberg, Dunn, and Valentin.
11-28-07: Signed Francisco Cordero to a four-year, $46MM contract.
12-21-07: Acquired Edinson Volquez and Danny Herrera for Josh Hamilton.
1-23-08: Signed Jeremy Affeldt to a one-year, $3MM contract.
2-15-08: Signed Brandon Phillips to a four-year, $27MM extension.
2-21-08: Signed Josh Fogg to a one-year, $1MM contract.
3-3-08: Signed Corey Patterson to a one-year, $3MM contract.
4-8-08: Released Mike Stanton.
4-21-08: Designated Juan Castro for assignment

TRF
04-23-2008, 04:59 PM
Kemp's not playing everyday.

Only Joe Torre has the answer as to why, for us.

Hamilton also still struggles vs. LHP. I'm not saying it as a knock on him, just pointing it out as fact. I also wonder if Hamilton will be able to hold up for a full season of 140+ games.

Sorry Hamilton struggling against LH is not a fact. At least he's not thus far.

.435 OBP .600 SLG 1.035 OPS. In 20 AB's he's also hitting .400.

I agree that for the Reds Kemp might have more value, but right now, Hamilton's ENORMOUS talent is showing.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 05:00 PM
A take from one of our former teamsters, Gregg Doyel:

And this is why I hate Cincinnati

Well, not Cincinnati, per se. Nobody can hate Cincinnati as a city. How do you hate something so harmless, so boring? Do you hate khakis? No you do not. You better not ever choose to wear them, but khakis aren't hateable. Just boring.

But I do hate the Reds, at this very moment anyway. I hate owner Bob Castellini at the moment for being a jock-sniffer extraordinaire who bought his way into several clubs before finally buying this one outright, and then brought along his old friend from St. Louis, Walt Jocketty, as an adviser -- and then waited all of 24 days into the 2008 season to fire general manager Wayne Krivsky and replace him with ... Jocketty.

I hate Jocketty at the moment for coming here to so clearly steal another man's job, without having the decency, or the guts, to simply take it outright on his first day in town. Jocketty let Krivsky squirm for a while -- as his "adviser" -- before gutting him on Wednesday.

I hate the fact that I'm speaking the truth but the Reds will complain about me and probably try, again, to keep me out of their clubhouse because they're not used to a media member with fangs.

Done venting.

But not done hating.

Roy Tucker
04-23-2008, 05:02 PM
Just win baby.

remdog
04-23-2008, 05:05 PM
Sorry Hamilton struggling against LH is not a fact. At least he's not thus far.

.435 OBP .600 SLG 1.035 OPS. In 20 AB's he's also hitting .400.

I agree that for the Reds Kemp might have more value, but right now, Hamilton's ENORMOUS talent is showing.

So. Would you trade Bailey for Hamilton right now?

Rem

VR
04-23-2008, 05:05 PM
Dunn/Bailey for Kemp

pedro
04-23-2008, 05:06 PM
Dunn/Bailey for Kemp

That's a little much IMO.

Blitz Dorsey
04-23-2008, 05:07 PM
Not sure, but GABP has been dead empty the few games I've watched on TV and the 5 games I've attended. One of those days (forget which one) I swear you could swing a dead cat and not hit another spectator.

Disturbing that you used that image/example to make your point. I would have used "fired a machine gun all around you and not hit another spectator" but that's just me.

Dead cats simply do not deserve to be swung around at weeknight Reds games. Dead cats should be reserved for Mike Brown's front yard. You think if we dump 5,000 of them on Mike Brown's lawn that he would get the message? Whoops. Wrong site.

As for Jocketty in as GM, Krivsky out, I was surprised like many on this board. But I shouldn't have been. No matter what Jocketty said to reporters (toeing the company line) that he didn't want to be GM, he was just saying that to not be a jerk to Krivsky. It should have been obvious that if the Reds got off to a crappy start that he would be out and Jocketty would take over the baseball ops. However, I fully expected Krivsky to get the full year.

Does seem like a kneejerk reaction, but if Cast is bent on winning, I can't argue with that. I like that he seems a bit desperate to win. Beats the alternative that we've had here for years with owners who are so-so about doing what it takes to win. Who knows if Castellini will reach his goals, but I like that he's aiming high and putting his money where his mouth is. I'm comfortable with our payroll and a good GM could do a lot more with it. Once we get rid of cripping contracts like Griffey's, Freel's, Ross', Coffey's, Gonzalez's, Stanton's, Castro's, etc... hopefully Jocketty will be able to put a much better team on the field with roughly the same team salary (Reds are something like 19th in MLB, not too bad... and I bet Castellini would be willing to up that a little bit more.)

The good news is we have a great base of young players to build a franchise around. Not so sure why everyone is so down on Jocketty. All I remember is he used to put good teams on the field for the Cardinals every year. He would make good trades like bringing McGwire and Edmonds to town. Carpenter came for cheap from Toronto. The Cards always won while he was there. No reason to believe he can't get the job done here. He is certainly qualified for the position and I'm anxious to see what he will do with the best crop of young talent the Reds have boasted since the 70's. We've had some solid crop of young players over the years, but few better than Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Bruce, Phillips, Votto... And even our ace pitcher (Harang) is just hitting his prime at 29 and signed for the next three years. If anything, Jocketty's track record with the Cardinals tells me good times are ahead in Cincinnati. And if he made some mistakes trading young studs in StL, then I bet he learned from it. Looking at his overall resume, he did a great job. The Cardinals were willing to spend money, but they were actually closer to the Reds than they were to the Yankees/Red Sox in spending. We're not talking about some Brian Cashman with unlimited funds who still has no clue how to formulate a good pitching staff.

VR
04-23-2008, 05:14 PM
That's a little much IMO.

Perhaps. But that's what it will take to get Matt Kemp. With the current foundation of this team, I'd jump on it.

dougdirt
04-23-2008, 05:27 PM
After listening to the press conference I have a real bad headache.

M2
04-23-2008, 05:27 PM
Hey, been busy the past two weeks. Anything noteworthy happen with the Reds?

For the record, I think this is the best Reds team to take the field in eight years even if it is still a flawed enterprise. I don't think the 9-12 start is reason for concern and it certainly isn't reason to dump Krivsky.

Krivsky got fired because as soon as Walt Jocketty showed up he was always going to be fired for the first convenient excuse. That's just unconscious knowledge.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 05:29 PM
Kemp's not playing everyday.

Only Joe Torre has the answer as to why, for us.

Hamilton also still struggles vs. LHP. I'm not saying it as a knock on him, just pointing it out as fact. I also wonder if Hamilton will be able to hold up for a full season of 140+ games.


Most of the pitchers are RH. In totality Hamilton is a much more productive ballplayer as of 4-23-08 than Kemp is.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 05:33 PM
Hey, been busy the past two weeks. Anything noteworthy happen with the Reds?

For the record, I think this is the best Reds team to take the field in eight years even if it is still a flawed enterprise. I don't think the 9-12 start is reason for concern and it certainly isn't reason to dump Krivsky.

Krivsky got fired because as soon as Walt Jocketty showed up he was always going to be fired for the first convenient excuse. That's just unconscious knowledge.

You've missed nothing ;)

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 05:33 PM
It's a pretty delicate situation though. If you go to Dunn or Jr and ask for the list of clubs they want to be traded to, chances are that you at least partially burn the bridge with both of them.
Dunn isn't going to want to hear his name in trade rumors for 6-8 weeks.
We all know that Dunn and Jr are best buddies, so if you approach one or both of them about a trade, you risk Dunn throwing up his hands and testing FA..

The problem with Dunn listing Tampa as a trading partner is that there's no way they are going to trade for him. It's not that Tampa doesn't have talent. They won't take his salary. Heck, even if the Reds paid Dunn's entire salary, why would they want to give up prospects rent Dunn for 1/2 a year? Renting Dunn only makes sense to contenders. All Dunn has to do to block a trade is list small market teams that aren't contending.

But back to the other point, if you approach Dunn about a trade and you can't get a good return for him, you've kind of hosed yourself when you go to the negotiation table to resign him. I'm guessing Wayne tested the waters for Dunn last year and didn't get many appealing offers, at least the rumors were that Wayne was testing Dunn's trade value.


And who signed Dunn to such a contract? WK really has tied the hands of the Reds with what he agreed to in this deal

pedro
04-23-2008, 05:34 PM
After listening to the press conference I have a real bad headache.

you and me both.

lots of mixed messages in there from castellini.

jojo
04-23-2008, 05:36 PM
After listening to the press conference I have a real bad headache.

Yep. We fired Krivsky because we're 9-12. The losing has to stop. In order for it to stop, we need to delegate more and embrace microbiology (I guess because they talked a lot about culturing stuff). Luckily we have a GM candidate that only has half his heart in it so he's definately on board with delegating but he's a proven winner too so he fits right in with our new branding.

Meanwhile, we'll work on getting our ownership to actually be able to articulate it's vision perhaps first by making ownership actually come up with one....

:cool:

VR
04-23-2008, 05:38 PM
Hamilton also still struggles vs. LHP. I'm not saying it as a knock on him, just pointing it out as fact. I also wonder if Hamilton will be able to hold up for a full season of 140+ games.

1.017 ops is struggling? I realize the expectations have been high for Josh. But 1.017 ops?

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 05:38 PM
wow he "fought for over an hour for his job this morning at an 8:30AM meeting"

PER WLW

Cedric
04-23-2008, 05:39 PM
I'm not sure that I trust Walt Jocketty or anyone with this ship right now. It's obvious that anyone working under Castellini is under major pressure and needs to make drastic moves. Drastic usually doesn't work in April.

Az Red
04-23-2008, 05:39 PM
Yep. We fired Krivsky because we're 9-12. The losing has to stop. In order for it to stop, we need to delegate more and embrace microbiology (I guess because they talked a lot about culturing stuff). Luckily we have a GM candidate that only has half his heart in it so he's definately on board with delegating but he's a proven winner too so he fits right in with our new branding.

Meanwhile, we'll work on getting our ownership to actually be able to articulate it's vision perhaps first by making ownership actually come up with one....

:cool:

There you go jojo, being serious again. That just doesn't fit in with the Redzone culture.

YOUR FIRED!

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 05:39 PM
Gregg Doyel:

And this is why I hate Cincinnati...




I don't know anything about Gregg Doyel other than occasionally hearing him on the radio but this short editorial smacks of loser.
I'd be embarrassed to sign my name to it. He sounds like the sarcastic "loser" who isn't invited to the "cool" kids' parties.

Aronchis
04-23-2008, 05:40 PM
Yep. We fired Krivsky because we're 9-12. The losing has to stop. In order for it to stop, we need to delegate more and embrace microbiology (I guess because they talked a lot about culturing stuff). Luckily we have a GM candidate that only has half his heart in it so he's definately on board with delegating but he's a proven winner too so he fits right in with our new branding.

Meanwhile, we'll work on getting our ownership to actually be able to articulate it's vision perhaps first by making ownership actually come up with one....

:cool:

Good one. Things are never boring with the Reds, oh, except for that losing problem.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 05:45 PM
So. Would you trade Bailey for Hamilton right now?

Rem


Interesting proposition.

Yes, I would.

As for the Dunn/Bailey for Kemp scenario, I'd do that too if I had determined that I couldn't re-sign Dunn

Az Red
04-23-2008, 05:45 PM
I'm not sure that I trust Walt Jocketty or anyone with this ship right now. It's obvious that anyone working under Castellini is under major pressure and needs to make drastic moves. Drastic usually doesn't work in April.

You know, that's the whole punch line. Maybe Wayne was to methodic for Bob. Moved too slow, held too much in, didn't seek advice enough. Wayne just hoped it all would pan out, kind of like 'the trade'. If you just sit and mummble to yourself in the corner, it will fix itself. Wayne got gun shy and was scared of finding another Majewski before he found another Phillips.

I also expect Walt has orders to 'fix it' fast.

reds44
04-23-2008, 05:46 PM
Who would you rather have, Hamilton or Kemp?

HokieRed
04-23-2008, 05:49 PM
Worries me most that Cast's win-now attitude, while admirable in a way, actually shows no knowledge of baseball and particularly of this team, which is not yet near being a contender. I expect bad, short-horizon moves to follow.

RedsManRick
04-23-2008, 05:50 PM
Who would you rather have, Hamilton or Kemp?

Not aimed at me, but I'd take Kemp without even blinking. 3 years younger. Better defender. No health concerns. Easy call.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-23-2008, 05:52 PM
I don't think I have ever agreed with Gregg Doyel.

He is a bad writer and a twit. I'm not surprised he's Daugherty's bestest buddy.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 05:54 PM
Not aimed at me, but I'd take Kemp without even blinking. 3 years younger. Better defender. No health concerns. Easy call.

Agreed.

TRF
04-23-2008, 05:54 PM
So. Would you trade Bailey for Hamilton right now?

Rem

Nope. I was 100% for the Hamilton/Volquez trade and still am.

I think Hamilton is a ticking timebomb. One that may never go off, but the thought that it could is serious enough to make me happy he's raking in Texas.

Volquez is a dynamite pitcher. Bailey could end up being better with just a little more seasoning. He is still very young.

Always Red
04-23-2008, 05:54 PM
I don't think I have never agreed with Gregg Doyel.

He is a bad writer and a twit. I'm not surprised he's Daugherty's bestest buddy.

Lucky that you never had to hear him on Homer before he was let go there.

Absolutely the most negative man I have ever heard on a radio. He hated everything. I am quickly becoming a grumpy old man, but this guy was light years ahead of me. And he's still a young guy. :eek:

Mario-Rijo
04-23-2008, 05:55 PM
Not aimed at me, but I'd take Kemp without even blinking. 3 years younger. Better defender. No health concerns. Easy call.

Kid must be the best ever?! Better defender? I obviously haven't seen much of Kemp but he would have to be pretty special out there to be better than Hamilton. Unless you are using only Hamilton's limited time out in CF last year after all that time off, I don't see it.

Not to say I would or wouldn't do that deal but I have a hard time buying that one RMR.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 05:55 PM
I don't think I have never agreed with Gregg Doyel.

He is a bad writer and a twit. I'm not surprised he's Daugherty's bestest buddy.


Double negative. What do you really mean?

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 05:58 PM
Who would you rather have, Hamilton or Kemp?

I think I'd go with Kemp 'cause we need the RH bat and he is younger but that doesn't mean I think Kemp is a better player. I just think he fits our needs better

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 05:58 PM
Krivsky: I fought for my job
ENQUIRER STAFF REPORTS

Wayne Krivsky, who was fired just 21 games into his third season with the Reds as general manager, said he fought to keep his job.

"I fought for an hour to keep my job. I love it here, and I love my job. I'm hugely disappointed I'm not able to finish the job. I respect the decision, but I really disagree with it -- strongly," Krivsky said.

Krivsky made the comments after a press conference introducing Walt Jocketty as the team's new general manager.

Although he said he respects the decision from Reds owner Bob Castellini, Krivsky said patience will be required to turn the team around.

"Bob will admit he's an impatient person. But patience is required."

Krivsky said he was proud of his work with the Reds.

"We're one of the more respected organizations in baseball, and I'm damn proud of that," he said.

Reds manager Dusty Baker said the current turnover being experienced in the Reds front office - the team has had four general managers in six years - cannot be sustained if the team is to become successful.

"Good organizations keep a lot of the same people for a period of time if they're working well together," he said.

Baker said Krivsky deserved credit for rebuilding the team's infrastructure.

"Wayne did good things here. He rebuilt the farm system."

Pitcher Aaron Harang said he was surprised at the news.

"It's kind of a shock. I guess things weren't going the way owners felt they could be going," he said.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080423/SPT04/304230101

reds44
04-23-2008, 05:58 PM
I think I'd go with Kemp 'cause we need the RH bat and he is younger but that doesn't mean I think Kemp is a better player. I just think he fits our needs better
I was waiting for that answer, that is basically how I feel as well.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-23-2008, 05:58 PM
Double negative. What do you really mean?

fat-fingered. fixed it.

Az Red
04-23-2008, 05:59 PM
Krivsky's downfall (according to Marty) was the dollar value of the players he signed. He overpayed for Patterson (one example) and left Bruce in AAA. Marty is still scratching his head over that one.

reds44
04-23-2008, 05:59 PM
"Wayne did good things here. He rebuilt the farm system."
Not really a fact, but okay.

BuckeyeRedleg
04-23-2008, 06:00 PM
"We're one of the more respected organizations in baseball, and I'm damn proud of that," he said.

Really?

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 06:00 PM
I thought Wayne did a heck of a job while he was here. Yeah, he should have handled the media better but that's not the worst thing in the world. I think he'll land on his feet somewhere else, and fairly soon.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 06:03 PM
"We're one of the more respected organizations in baseball, and I'm damn proud of that," he said.



Yeah, and DanO said he laid the foundation for a dynasty on the way out as well.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 06:04 PM
Reds fire GM Krivsky after 9-12 start

By JOE KAY – 12 minutes ago

CINCINNATI (AP) — With Walt Jocketty, the question was when.

When would the Cincinnati Reds decide to switch general managers and give Jocketty the chance to turn them into winners?

The answer: 21 games into the season.

Off to their worst start in five years, the Reds fired Wayne Krivsky on Wednesday and replaced him with Jocketty, who built consistent winners during 10 seasons running the Oakland Athletics and 13 with the St. Louis Cardinals.

"We've just come to a point where we're not going to lose anymore," Reds owner Bob Castellini said emphatically.

Jocketty is the fourth general manager in six years for a team that has gone through seven straight losing seasons. The Reds have been through four managers (plus an interim manager) and two owners since 2003, when they moved into Great American Ball Park. It's their deepest slump in a half-century.

Jocketty's job is to provide direction. He'll likely get more of a chance than Krivsky, who walked into Castellini's office on Wednesday morning anticipating a regular baseball meeting.

He was shocked when told he was fired.

"I fought for an hour to keep my job," Krivsky said. "I did not see this coming at all. I still think it's a gold mine. That's what hurts so much, not to see the job through to the end and bring that winner to Cincinnati. I've had visions of being in the clubhouse with champagne being poured all over everybody."

Castellini said a 9-12 start was the main reason he turned to Jocketty, a move that was expected at some point. Krivsky, who was hired before the 2006 season, was in the final year of his contract. Jocketty was hired as a special consultant in January. The two were friends from Castellini's days as part of the Cardinals' ownership group.

When he brought him in as a special assistant in January, Castellini insisted that it was no threat to Krivsky's job. However, he talked to Jocketty about becoming director of baseball operations after this season, giving him time to ease into a major role.

Jocketty was surprised when Castellini asked him to become general manager on Wednesday.

"I knew this was important to Bob," Jocketty said. "I'm charged up and ready to go. I think this organization is going in the right direction."

The move marked a significant change.

When Castellini hired Dusty Baker in the offseason, it was the first time the Reds had gone outside the organization for a manager since Lou Piniella came aboard for the 1990 season. The days of trying unproven managers were done.

Same now with the general manager's job.

The last three general managers — Jim Bowden, Dan O'Brien and Krivsky — were new to the job. Krivsky was the only one of the three hired by Castellini. Jocketty comes with a lot of experience at turning a struggling franchise into a winner.

"I think this organization is a little further along than St. Louis was when I took over in '95," Jocketty said. "This organization has a lot better base to work from."

Jocketty left the Cardinals last year, only one year removed from winning the World Series. Front-office friction left him out of a job even though he'd helped the Cardinals get to the playoffs seven times in 12 seasons.

The Reds haven't been since 1995.

Before going to St. Louis, Jocketty spent 14 years with Oakland overhauling the A's farm system and working in baseball administration. He also was an assistant general manager in Colorado.

Jocketty's job will be to set a course for the impatient owner, who has increased the payroll and expanded the front office during his two years in charge but hasn't been able to produce a winner. Cincinnati's payroll increased from $69 million at the start of last year to $74.3 million on opening day, 18th in the majors.

Krivsky showed a fondness for signing older pitchers and making a flurry of trades. Outfielder Josh Hamilton and second baseman Brandon Phillips resurrected their careers in Cincinnati.

Some of Krivsky's contract decisions backfired. For instance, reliever Mike Stanton was owed $3.5 million when the Reds got rid of him during spring training. Castellini said big contracts that the team absorbed were a factor in the firing, but the 9-12 start was the overriding one.

Krivsky's most high-profile move was an eight-player deal with Washington in 2006 that sent outfielder Austin Kearns and shortstop Felipe Lopez to the Nationals for relievers Gary Majewski and Bill Bray. The deal hasn't made much of an impact for either team.

Jocketty will have a couple of major decisions in the coming months. Ken Griffey Jr. is in the final year of his contract — there's a club option for next year at $16.5 million — and Adam Dunn is making $13 million in the last year of his deal.

Krivsky said he's proud of how the farm system has turned around during his two years as general manager, now rated one of the NL's best. He got tears in his eyes when he talked about how he wouldn't be around to see the results.

"Baseball people recognize the Reds have come a long way," Krivsky said. "I wish more focus would have been on the whole body of work than the 9-12 record, or whatever went into the decision today."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jMIstXhtEch-qriYMwoXD7oLrT_gD907QUVO3

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 06:04 PM
I feel bad for the guy.

Mario-Rijo
04-23-2008, 06:05 PM
Not really a fact, but okay.

How so? Krivsky's FO had a big hand in the development of DOB's few players. Most of the talent down in the minors right now is from Krivsky's regime not DOB. DOB had Bailey and Bruce and what else, Travis Wood maybe? Almarez get's the credit for Cueto and Bowden for Votto.

Cedric
04-23-2008, 06:05 PM
Really?

I think he means in dealing with other teams. We went from Bowden to a pretty trustworthy organization probably. Just assuming because of how tight lipped DanO and Wayne were.

Ltlabner
04-23-2008, 06:06 PM
"I fought for an hour to keep my job. I love it here, and I love my job. I'm hugely disappointed I'm not able to finish the job. I respect the decision, but I really disagree with it -- strongly," Krivsky said.

Krivsky made the comments after a press conference introducing Walt Jocketty as the team's new general manager.

Although he said he respects the decision from Reds owner Bob Castellini, Krivsky said patience will be required to turn the team around.

"Bob will admit he's an impatient person. But patience is required."

I was just posting in a different Wayne thread that likely Bob was on the bubble about Wayne and that somewhere during a normal conversation things went from talking about the team to Wayne negotiating for his job.

Pedro mention being worried about BCast in a different thread (can't keep them all straight). I can't say that I disagree after reading this.

reds44
04-23-2008, 06:06 PM
Nothing annoys me more than the term "baseball people."

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 06:06 PM
Reds manager Dusty Baker said the current turnover being experienced in the Reds front office - the team has had four general managers in six years - cannot be sustained if the team is to become successful.

"Good organizations keep a lot of the same people for a period of time if they're working well together," he said.

Not so sure I agree with Dusty there. The Cincinnati Bengals have had more stability in their organization than just about anyone and look what they have to show for it.

I could tell a year into OB's reign as GM that he wasn't going to cut it and needed to be fired yet many said "it's too early." I'd also argue that Bowden should have been fired sooner.

Therefore I'm fine with this firing. Walt Jocketty has the best resume of any Reds GM since Bob Howsome and he has a track record with BC.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 06:06 PM
Under Bowden, they may not have gotten Cordero...Bowden's such a talker, he would have said publically they were after him....Krvisky kept quiet, and the Brewers had no idea what hit them.

I liked that approach.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 06:10 PM
Well the press conference is over. Some thoughts

Did Castellini not look absolutely exhausted? And he jumped some reporters tailend for including the previous ownerships GM changes in with his. He was harsh there.

Several times, I heard Jockety talk about delegating jobs. He said it enough times that it makes me think this may have been an issue.

I like Jockety's demeanor. I hope he doesn't empty the icebox too much.

Walt Jocketty is a great interview and consummate professional. He could sell property in North Dakota.

The team is in very capable hands with Walt.

However, I greatly dislike that this was carried out in the way it was. Stability matters, particularly when the Reds have as many arms as they do in as fluid a position as they are. I'd hate to see a massive turnover in development positions--coaches, advisers in the minors--in mid-stream like this.

Obviously, I'm very heartened that Jocketty & Co. will be running this year's draft. And I'm very happy that, more than likely, the strategy of dancing around the margins to find talent will be eschewed for the method of cutting straight to the talent that you need to accumulate to win at the MLB level.

WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 06:12 PM
Under Bowden, they may not have gotten Cordero...Bowden's such a talker, he would have said publically they were after him....Krvisky kept quiet, and the Brewers had no idea what hit them.

I liked that.My understanding is that Cordero went to the Brewers with Krivsky's offer and they wouldn't match it. They gave him what they would do and Cordero bolted to the Reds. Since Cordero hasn't been used much, who knows how that will turn out?

westofyou
04-23-2008, 06:12 PM
But patience is required

It's the seams that hold baseball together.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 06:12 PM
I feel bad for the guy.

I don't. He made a lot of bone headed moves and blew a lot of BC's money.

I think he fought for his job because:

1) He knows the Reds future is bright

2) He knows he'll likely not get another GM job. Quinn, Cook, Bowden, O'brien, I think Bowden's the only one to land a GM job and that was in very unusual circumstances.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 06:15 PM
Under Bowden, they may not have gotten Cordero...Bowden's such a talker, he would have said publically they were after him....Krvisky kept quiet, and the Brewers had no idea what hit them.

I liked that approach.

Actually Milwaukee did know. Their GM acknowledged that Cordero came to them and expected the Brewers to top the Reds offer. The Brewers refused.
Cordero was going to whoever wrote the biggest check. Not a whole lot of skill in closing that deal.

Mario-Rijo
04-23-2008, 06:17 PM
Actually Milwaukee did know. Their GM acknowledged that Cordero came to them and expected the Brewers to top the Reds offer. The Brewers refused.
Cordero was going to whoever wrote the biggest check. Not a whole lot of skill in closing that deal.


I believe he also acknowledged at some point that he didn't know it was the Red's until the very end or something to that effect. Not sure what his words were but I got the feeling that he didn't know the other team until the last day or 2 of the negotiations.

Kc61
04-23-2008, 06:18 PM
Not so sure I agree with Dusty there. The Cincinnati Bengals have had more stability in their organization than just about anyone and look what they have to show for it.

I could tell a year into OB's reign as GM that he wasn't going to cut it and needed to be fired yet many said "it's too early." I'd also argue that Bowden should have been fired sooner.

Therefore I'm fine with this firing. Walt Jocketty has the best resume of any Reds GM since Bob Howsome and he has a track record with BC.


I do feel bad for Krivsky. I thought he did a good job of getting the overall organization in better shape.

Perhaps Jocketty will be superior in formulating a 25-man major league team that can win. It would seem to me to be quite a different skill. But we'll see.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 06:18 PM
I don't. He made a lot of bone headed moves and blew a lot of BC's money.

I think he fought for his job because:
.

DanO fought for his job too. I would have no respect for Wayne if he didn't fight for his job.

Wayne deserved the pink slip. Hopefully brighter days are ahead.
Cast was more than patient with Wayne. For those that think Cast was too impatient, how much longer do you give Wayne? Realistically, you can't give a GM a 7 year trial. You have to cut bait sooner than that if no progress is being made.

Good organizations have stablity only because they have good people in charge and those good people have earned the right to continue. Stability for the sake of stabliity makes no sense.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 06:20 PM
I don't. He made a lot of bone headed moves and blew a lot of BC's money.

I think he fought for his job because:

1) He knows the Reds future is bright

2) He knows he'll likely not get another GM job. Quinn, Cook, Bowden, O'brien, I think Bowden's the only one to land a GM job and that was in very unusual circumstances.


I feel bad for the guy....but I don't oppose the move. There's a difference.

dougdirt
04-23-2008, 06:21 PM
I don't. He made a lot of bone headed moves and blew a lot of BC's money.

I think he fought for his job because:

1) He knows the Reds future is bright

2) He knows he'll likely not get another GM job. Quinn, Cook, Bowden, O'brien, I think Bowden's the only one to land a GM job and that was in very unusual circumstances.

All GM's make bad moves. Wayne made a TON of real good moves as well. A lot more to outweigh the bad ones. Fast forward to July and what the roster is probably going to look like:
Votto, Phillips, Kepp, EE, Dunn, Bruce and Griffey. Harang, Cueto, Arroyo, Volquez and Bailey. Cordero, Burton and Bray. Honestly, is that team going to lose more than they win? Not very likely. Not in the long haul of a season. Yeah, Cormier sucked, Castro sucked, Stanton sucked.... he also is paying next to nothing for Harang, Volquez, Phillips and Keppinger. Dude has some head scratchers in there, but his entire body of work is very good. This team has the right pieces in place and he put them there.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 06:22 PM
I disagree with Sea Ray. I absolutely believe Wayne Krivsky will land another GM job someday. Maybe not right away but he'll be a GM again. I thought he did a solid job overall and he should learn from his mistakes the next go around.

BTW the worst move he made (Kearns/Lopez trade) is starting to look like it could favor the Reds when it's all said and done. Bray is dominating AAA hitters and Daryl Thompson has regained his stuff and is dominating AA hitters so far.

REDREAD
04-23-2008, 06:22 PM
I believe he also acknowledged at some point that he didn't know it was the Red's until the very end or something to that effect. Not sure what his words were but I got the feeling that he didn't know the other team until the last day or 2 of the negotiations.

I could see a case where Cordero said "Hey, the Reds offered me X" and the Brewers GM was taken by surprise. He refused to top the Reds bid, and Cordero was a Red an hour or two later.

But there seems to be a false perception that Wayne did some kind of major covert operation and the Brewers GM didn't have a clue until he we found out too. That's false and quite silly.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 06:25 PM
Worries me most that Cast's win-now attitude, while admirable in a way, actually shows no knowledge of baseball and particularly of this team, which is not yet near being a contender. I expect bad, short-horizon moves to follow.

I have thought this many times.

"Patience is a virtue."

Good luck to you Mr. Krivsky...

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 06:27 PM
I think there are three things that possibly lead to this firing:

1. Hiring of Dusty Baker

2. Disagreement over whether or not to re-sign Dunn

3. Krivsky and Jocketty couldn't work together

Mario-Rijo
04-23-2008, 06:30 PM
DanO fought for his job too. I would have no respect for Wayne if he didn't fight for his job.

Wayne deserved the pink slip. Hopefully brighter days are ahead.
Cast was more than patient with Wayne. For those that think Cast was too impatient, how much longer do you give Wayne? Realistically, you can't give a GM a 7 year trial. You have to cut bait sooner than that if no progress is being made.

Good organizations have stablity only because they have good people in charge and those good people have earned the right to continue. Stability for the sake of stabliity makes no sense.

How about the length of the contract that he was given? That's the thing for me is that so many FO's/owners in sports complain about players and contracts but they turn around and do stuff like this. The guy was given a nearly bare minor leagues to work with, a 25 man that was more like a 3 or 4 man w/ massive amounts of 4A types or role players and with very little money to work with? And the worst part is he was able to improve not only the minors but the 25 man also with very few mega-contracts. And IMO only Cordero's contract could be considered overpaying (unless Arroyo continues to stink it up) at least from the contracts that WK had a part in. Sure he gave more $$$'s to about 4-5 guys than he should have but by no means in todays game is 3 or 4 million a mega contract.

Too me it was headed in the right direction and as soon as Jr's money was off the books that would have really given Wayne something to work with.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 06:30 PM
All GM's make bad moves. Wayne made a TON of real good moves as well. A lot more to outweigh the bad ones. Fast forward to July and what the roster is probably going to look like:
Votto, Phillips, Kepp, EE, Dunn, Bruce and Griffey. Harang, Cueto, Arroyo, Volquez and Bailey. Cordero, Burton and Bray. Honestly, is that team going to lose more than they win? Not very likely. Not in the long haul of a season. Yeah, Cormier sucked, Castro sucked, Stanton sucked.... he also is paying next to nothing for Harang, Volquez, Phillips and Keppinger. Dude has some head scratchers in there, but his entire body of work is very good. This team has the right pieces in place and he put them there.

Agreed. I also feel bad for Wayne Krivsky.

I've been told this move was made simply for two reasons:
1) Castellini loves Jocketty.
2) Krivsky had serious "people problems"

The word I got is that it really didn't have anything to do with the team's record, that was just an excuse. And that actually makes me feel much better about Castellini.

Hoosier Red
04-23-2008, 06:30 PM
Actually Milwaukee did know. Their GM acknowledged that Cordero came to them and expected the Brewers to top the Reds offer. The Brewers refused.
Cordero was going to whoever wrote the biggest check. Not a whole lot of skill in closing that deal.

IIRC Cordero's people didn't let the Brewers know who was offering that. The Brewers were a bit skeptical of this "mystery" team and refused to get into a bidding war.

Mario-Rijo
04-23-2008, 06:32 PM
I could see a case where Cordero said "Hey, the Reds offered me X" and the Brewers GM was taken by surprise. He refused to top the Reds bid, and Cordero was a Red an hour or two later.

But there seems to be a false perception that Wayne did some kind of major covert operation and the Brewers GM didn't have a clue until he we found out too. That's false and quite silly.

True I think it would be silly of us to think the Brewers didn't know until after everything was a done deal. However I think Wayne keeping things hush had to have helped some.

NC Reds
04-23-2008, 06:33 PM
I won't lament too much if Jocketty shows commitment to young players and re-signs Dunn to an extension.

I don't trust him on either count though. I was not a Krivsky fan, but a dismissal this early in the season reeks.

Sea Ray
04-23-2008, 06:33 PM
I disagree with Sea Ray. I absolutely believe Wayne Krivsky will land another GM job someday. Maybe not right away but he'll be a GM again. I thought he did a solid job overall and he should learn from his mistakes the next go around.

BTW the worst move he made (Kearns/Lopez trade) is starting to look like it could favor the Reds when it's all said and done. Bray is dominating AAA hitters and Daryl Thompson has regained his stuff and is dominating AA hitters so far.

We'll see. He did make some good moves and I think he was a better GM than O'Brien but he does leave behind of history of eating contracts that he negotiated and a trail of not having good people skills to others in the front office as well as the press. Those are negatives that he now has on his resume that he didn't have 3 yrs ago.

Benihana
04-23-2008, 06:34 PM
where can i see the press conference?

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 06:35 PM
Wayne was talking on Reds Live and said he'll still follow this team and root like hell for them. You could tell he was barely holding back the tears.

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 06:42 PM
Ahh...the sweet smell of dysfunction and chaos, Bob is scary.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 06:43 PM
Starting over…again

By Hal McCoy | Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 05:05 PM

The first thing that came to mind when Bob Castellini spoke was former Russian premier Nikita Khrushchev pounding his shoe on a podium at the United Nations and saying, “We will bury you.”

Castellini, his face a solid concrete etched in solemn passion, looked down when asked, “Why now? Why fire general manager Wayne Krivsky now?”

Then his head shot up and he said, “We’ve come to the point where we just aren’t going to lose anymore.”

You could almost see Krivsky’s successor, Walt Jocketty, cringe at those words, although he later said, “I’m not worried about it, I do it because I want to do it, not that I need to do it.”

Castellini said the reason for Krivsky’s dismissal can mostly be found in the won-lost column. Is that fair? 9-12? Twenty-one games. Even Tony Perez lasted longer than that into a season, 44 games as manager before Jim Bowden fired him.

“Nobody in the organization is happy with our 9-12 won-loss record,” Castellini said. “We’ve had two losing seasons under our new ownership and we’ve started out this season poorly, on a won-loss basis, and that’s the primary reason we made the change.”

Castellini was testy when asked about continuity — four managers and six general managers (two were co-GMs on an interim basis in the last six seasons.

“We haven’t had six, we’ve had two,” he said, using semantics. The organization has had six GMs since 2002 — Jim Bowden, co-interims Brad Kullman and Leland Maddox, Dan O’Brien, Krivsky and Jocketty. “The franchise has…yes.”

So is he concerned about continuity? “Absolutely I am. Absolutely. I respect the question, but this has been a very tough decision. Krivsky did a whale of a job in some areas.”

Jocketty jumped to Castellini’s rescue.

“I believe in continuity,” he said. “Very much so. But sometime it takes a little time to get thins the way you want. There are a lot of quality people and quite a few quality players here and now we have to find a way to make it work.”

Jocketty says he is impressed with the staff, on the field and in the front office, and doesn’t anticipate any changes.

Manager Dusty Baker, the fifth manager in six years (Bob Boone, Dave Miley, Jerry Narron, interim Pete Mackanin, Baker) addressed the continuity issue, too. Asked about the importance of continuity, he said, “I think it is very important. Wayne did some great things here. He built our farm system. It is very important to keep some consistency, which is one reason I kept the coaching staff.

“I mean, you listen to quarterbacks complain about four offensive co-ordinators in four years. Doesn’t work. Good organizations keep a lot of the same people for a long period of time,” Baker added.

Krivsky appeared in the back of the press box after the Jocketty press conference and said his removal was a shot out of the dark. He said Castellini asked him Tuesday night to meet with him Wednesday morning at 8:30 and Krivsky didn’t see the axe above the door.

“It came out of the blue, it really did,” said Krivsky. “Completely shocked. I didn’t see this coming at all. What hurts so much is not to be able to see the job through. I had visions of being in the clubhouse with people pouring champagne over everybody. I’m hugely disappointed I’m not able to finish the job.

“I fought for an hour to keep my job,” he said. “I fought hard for my job. I love it here. I loved my job. And I had laughs. You have to have laughs in this job and I did in two years. I only wish it was 22. It wasn’t my call. But I disagree strongly with the decision. I still think I’m the right guy for this job. But Bob will admit he is an impatient man. I’ll sleep good tonight…well, maybe not tonight.

Jocketty is confident he can do in Cincinnati what he did in St. Louis, turning a similar market from moribund into a winner, seven playoffs in 13 years.

“This franchise is very similar to what we had in St. Louis, a winning tradition, great fans, great community, but they hadn’t won in a long time in St. Louis, either,” sjaid Jocketty. “There are a lot of similarities between St. Louis and Cincinnati. This is a storied franchise with tradition. Dusty Baker and I are very motivated, guys with a vendette and a little chip on our shoulder.”

That’s because Jocketty was fired in St. Louis after last season and Baker was fired in Chicago after 2006.

Asked about his basic philosophy, Jocketty said, “Win.”

That’s what they all say.



“Look at an unbiases source like Baseball America, who had the Reds farm system rated 27th to 30th when I got here, now they rank us in the top three or four,” said Krivsky. “In two years? Dam right I’m proud of that. I’m humongously proud of that. We’re one of the most respected organizations in baseball and I’m damn proud of that.”

http://www.middletownjournal.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2008/04/23/starting_overagain.html

nate
04-23-2008, 06:47 PM
DanO fought for his job too. I would have no respect for Wayne if he didn't fight for his job.

Wayne deserved the pink slip. Hopefully brighter days are ahead.
Cast was more than patient with Wayne. For those that think Cast was too impatient, how much longer do you give Wayne? Realistically, you can't give a GM a 7 year trial. You have to cut bait sooner than that if no progress is being made.

Good organizations have stablity only because they have good people in charge and those good people have earned the right to continue. Stability for the sake of stabliity makes no sense.

At least 'til the end of his contract.

Now the period you give to someone as "patience" starts over.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 06:48 PM
Ahh...the sweet smell of dysfunction and chaos, Bob is scary.

Yeah, it looks ugly from the outside, but sometimes great things require some political violence. If the whole organization has to be revamped from top to bottom once again, then yeah, it has been a horrible disaster. But if this is the shock that galvanizes the corpse, it will not have been in vain.

westofyou
04-23-2008, 06:51 PM
As I was getting ready to file this article, the news broke that Wayne Krivsky was going to be fired and replaced by Walt Jocketty. The only surprise is the timing, which seems silly. When Bob Castellini hired Jocketty and Dusty Baker, it was clearly that Krivsky’s days were numbered. I can’t say I understand the decision to let him go three weeks into the season; it’s not like you shake up a team by firing the GM.

Krivsky’s work in Cincinnati was a mixed bag. He had an absolutely terrific record on minor deals, acquiring contributors such as David Ross, Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Dave Weathers, and others for next to nothing. On the other hand, he may be best remembered for his biggest deal, in which he dealt away Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez in an attempt to bolster the Reds’ bullpen back in 2006. The trade was a disaster, and overshadows what was actually a solid record outside of it. Krivsky inherited a flawed team, and if he didn’t push it into contention, he made it marginally better over the years by identifying upgrades. Certainly Jocketty has a longer and more impressive c.v., but this decision is more about personal relationships—Castellini and Jocketty go back a long way—than performance. It was inevitable, but that doesn’t make the timing any less strange, and in fact, counterproductive. When the Reds win down the road, as they will, Krivsky will deserve a significant piece of the credit that will no doubt go largely to Jocketty.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7414

princeton
04-23-2008, 06:51 PM
“Nobody in the organization is happy with our 9-12 won-loss record,” Castellini said. “We’ve started out this season poorly, on a won-loss basis, and that’s the primary reason we made the change.”

Reds are going to out-Steinbrenner everyone.

remdog
04-23-2008, 06:51 PM
I hope I get the Cincinnati feed on Extra Innings tonight. Should be some good comentary.

Rem

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 06:53 PM
Reds are going to out-Steinbrenner everyone.

Goodness, I hope so.

Unassisted
04-23-2008, 07:00 PM
On the other hand, he may be best remembered for his biggest deal, in which he dealt away Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez in an attempt to bolster the Reds’ bullpen back in 2006. The trade was a disaster, and overshadows what was actually a solid record outside of it.
I hope that Wayne eventually spills the full story of his reasoning behind The Trade. I always felt like his public story was tempered by defensiveness and by a desire to avoid pointing out the flaws in the players he traded away. Now that he's not attached to the organizations involved in it, I hope that he can be more candid.

WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 07:05 PM
The more I think about this, one event sticks out as one of the nails in the coffin of Wayne Krivsky and may give us insight into the man's communication skills that someone mentioned.

I hae no ideas where I read this, but apparently somewhere Dusty mentioned that he had no idea Wayne was acquiring Josh Fogg. The disaster that Fogg became probably hacked off Dusty and he began to lobby for Wayne's dismissal. Also consider the little problems with Bucky Dent and Johnny Alvarez.

Just a theory. If a guy is looking to fire someone, he didn't need amunition from the manager and other cronies.

reds44
04-23-2008, 07:06 PM
How is Dusty not the first (or 2nd behind the owner) guy that Krivsky notifies when signing somebody?