PDA

View Full Version : Doc sez Krivsky FIRED!



Pages : 1 2 [3]

WVRedsFan
04-23-2008, 08:16 PM
How is Dusty not the first (or 2nd behind the owner) guy that Krivsky notifies when signing somebody?

Exactly. But the story goes along with his handling of The Trade when advisors said no and Wayne did what he wanted to anyway.

You can do this stuff if you win. The Reds didn't win.

wally post
04-23-2008, 08:34 PM
Kudos to Boss and all who have kept this site from shutting down under all this action!!
I am absolutely thrilled with this. GREAT news. First, we conquer our division, and then the world!!! Bwa ha ha ha ha!! (yay)

corkedbat
04-23-2008, 08:37 PM
I don't think a 9-12 start was enough to get WK fired, I don't think poor internal comunications or external communications or THE TRADE or dead money or poor roster construction orany one single thing got Krivsky fired. I think all of them together were enough.

Krivsky was in the last year of his contract and BCast had to make a decision on whether to re-up him or not and I think he finally made the decision that he would not extend him, so why wait until they might be 12-25 or 18-40?

Especially when he had someone that he trusted and respected in-house in Jocketty. I think that Krivsky did some positive things during his tenure, but there were enough questionable decision also to keep me from second-guessing the move.

I think changes are coming and the period between now and the trading deadline should be most interesting.

There are some bright spots on this club, but there are more than enough things not to like. I believe that Jocketty has had more than enough timeto identify some that he doesn't care ofr and he doesn't strike me as someone who is going to wait months to put his own stamp on a club he runs.

It wouldn't surprise me if he receives congratulatory calls from former trading partners in the next couple of days and it would surprise me even less if he didn't use those calls to start stoking the trade fires - starting with fortifying the bench.

gm
04-23-2008, 09:00 PM
Yeah, like 21 games will tell you that much;)

I think Cast needs some prozac.

BCast, wearing long black cape and in a deep voice right out of The Empire Strikes Back

"Apology accepted, Commander Krivsky"

(cue the stormtrooper music)

Dum Dum Dum, duh-da-dah, duh-da-dah...

edabbs44
04-23-2008, 09:25 PM
After reading many articles written on this topic, I noted (and, for the most part, rightfully so) that most of the authors were quick to bring up Arroyo as Wayne's claim to fame. His biggest and best move. The one that put him on the map.

Lucky for him that he won't be around for the end of the Arroyo story, as I have a feeling that this one is going to end badly. That extension is looking worse by the day.

reds44
04-23-2008, 09:27 PM
After reading many articles written on this topic, I noted (and, for the most part, rightfully so) that most of the authors were quick to bring up Arroyo as Wayne's claim to fame. His biggest and best move. The one that put him on the map.

Lucky for him that he won't be around for the end of the Arroyo story, as I have a feeling that this one is going to end badly. That extension is looking worse by the day.
Krivsky's claim to fame may be giving out extensions that were not needed. Arroyo, Freel, Coffey, Cormier.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 09:29 PM
2 year deal for Stanton, ANOTHER deal for Castro,

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 09:36 PM
The Reds have what appears to be good starting pitching for the first time in decades.

The Reds have what appears to be healthy pitching prospects moving steadily up the talent pipeline in the minor leagues.

The Reds are continuing to develop bats, many of which were acquired in the two recent drafts of the Krivsky era.

At the end of the day, I was a Wayne Krivsky supporter. He was working within the constraints of small market -- small market demands you nibble at the corners for some things while spending big money on others. Small market demands you gamble occasionally and hope to land the big score. He swung and miss on a few, he hit big on a few others.

The core of this team (Votto, Phillips, Keppinger, Dunn, Cueto, Volquez, Harang) WILL win. I'd lay my own money that they will be a postseason team within the next two years. Jocketty will get the credit, but it will be Krivsky that laid the foundation for this to happen.

I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 09:41 PM
The Reds have what appears to be good starting pitching for the first time in decades.

The Reds have what appears to be healthy pitching prospects moving steadily up the talent pipeline in the minor leagues.

The Reds are continuing to develop bats, many of which were acquired in the two recent drafts of the Krivsky era.

At the end of the day, I was a Wayne Krivsky supporter. He was working within the constraints of small market -- small market demands you nibble at the corners for some things while spending big money on others. Small market demands you gamble occasionally and hope to land the big score. He swung and miss on a few, he hit big on a few others.

The core of this team (Votto, Phillips, Keppinger, Dunn, Cueto, Volquez, Harang) WILL win. I'd lay my own money that they will be a postseason team within the next two years. Jocketty will get the credit, but it will be Krivsky that laid the foundation for this to happen.

I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

Good post. I agree with it all.

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 09:47 PM
Krivsky's claim to fame may be giving out extensions that were not needed. Arroyo, Freel, Coffey, Cormier.

Owner needs to sign off on stuff like that.

jojo
04-23-2008, 09:52 PM
Not aimed at me, but I'd take Kemp without even blinking. 3 years younger. Better defender. No health concerns. Easy call.

He's a righty too.

jojo
04-23-2008, 09:56 PM
I was just posting in a different Wayne thread that likely Bob was on the bubble about Wayne and that somewhere during a normal conversation things went from talking about the team to Wayne negotiating for his job.

Pedro mention being worried about BCast in a different thread (can't keep them all straight). I can't say that I disagree after reading this.

I'm still waiting for Bob C to fire himself......remember that glorious presser?

Always Red
04-23-2008, 09:58 PM
I'm still waiting for Bob C to fire himself......remember that glorious presser?

Is there anyone else left to fire...or blame?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:00 PM
The Reds have what appears to be good starting pitching for the first time in decades.

The Reds have more interesting starting pitching candidates than they've had in a long time--that's not a fait accompli on the "good starting pitching" thing, however.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:08 PM
The Reds have more interesting starting pitching candidates than they've had in a long time--that's not a fait accompli on the "good starting pitching" thing, however.

They're healthy, they throw hard, they miss bats.

Those three things alone make Harang, Cueto, and Volquez better than ANYTHING that has put on the wishbone-C in almost 20 years.

They're good. Sustaining that good? A different story -- you're correct about that. But I prefer starting from this point than discussing whether Jimmy Haynes or Osvaldo Fernandez can make it happen.

vaticanplum
04-23-2008, 10:08 PM
Just skimmed through the whole thread and my head is still spinning. I had about a hundred responses to make but I'm not sure how to condense them.

Re: Krivsky's future career, I really believe the guy has the potential to be a really really good GM. Maybe not great, but more than serviceable under the right circumstances. Our pathetic team was in shambles when he got here, but nevertheless he was kind of handed an awful lot for a first-time GM. A brand-new owner dying to spend money and, I'm guessing, a hell of a lot of freedom. All that considered, he did pretty well. Give 10 three year olds a shiny fragile new toy: seven will break it, two will be too scared to touch it, and one will play with it and not destroy it. Krivsky was that one kid. Nothing dramatic but he kept it together. More than that, he made some truly interesting moves. Like them or hate them, but they were different, and this team needed a creative shakeup more than anything else.

He overstepped at times and he was careless at times. he could have done a lot worse given his situation. I think that with tighter reins and a thinner checkbook he could be a fascinating GM. I'd love to see what he'd do with a team like Kansas City -- and that's not a knock. KC has great potential at the moment but will do nothing without good guidance.

I like Krivsky. I love Jocketty. I do think it's becoming clearer and clearer that Castellini is a loose cannon, and not necessarily in a good way. Under normal circumstances, I'd not be ok at all with someone shrewdly hired to take someone else's place in a few months (as M2 alluded to), I'd not be ok with a competent person fired for personality reasons (welcome to earth: we don't all get along), I'd not be ok with a GM hired for reasons of "losing" 21 games into the season. In this case, the replacement is Jocketty, so I don't have much choice but to let it slide. That makes me feel a little dirty, honestly, so Castellini bears the brunt of that for me.

I dunno...there's a ton here we don't know (and probably never will, and I think that's good). It's hard for me to hold Krivsky responsible for ALL the missteps, all the wasted money, and also to be ok with his sudden firing. If he was given so much freedom that all of the bad moves and money can be attributed directly and solely to him, then a sudden firing is just plain unfair. If you're his boss, you owe it to him to pull in the reins first and see what happens. If his moves had higher-level input or even approval, then the firing seems like a knee-jerk, responsibility-avoiding move by a crazy dude. I don't like that in charge of my organization. But...you know, Jocketty.

Whatever. Just sign Dunn already, will you.

Reds Fanatic
04-23-2008, 10:09 PM
This is from Fay's blog tonight. Quotes from Krivsky:



Wayne Krivsky truly seemed blind-sided by the news of his firing. He spoke to the media Wednesday afternoon at the ball park, and even got a little emotional about halfway through.

“I did not see this coming all,” Krivsky said. “Having said that, I told Bob (Castellini) I was real appreciative of the opportunity. I worked 29 years to get an opportunity like this in the city of Cincinnati, starving for a winner, (with a) great sports town and great tradition, and I still think it’s a gold mine. I really do. That’s what hurts so much - not to see the job through to the end and bring that winner to Cincinnati.”

There was one thing Krivsky wanted to set straight, and that was about reliever Rheal Cormier. Cormier was designated for assignment early last season after a poor start, and was reportedly owed about $2.25 million.

“Just so you all know, there was a whole bunch of money in one transaction that paid for Rheal Cormier’s contract,” Krivsky said.

“I guess I can come forward with that right now. There was $2.08 million in one transaction that paid for his contract specifically, so if you can wipe that one off my ledger, I’d appreciate that,” Krivsky said.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 10:10 PM
Whatever. Just sign Dunn already, will you.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is in the cards, but with a new boss in town, I guess that question is still as unanswered as it was before.

vaticanplum
04-23-2008, 10:11 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if this is in the cards, but with a new boss in town, I guess that question is still as unanswered as it was before.

I have always gotten the impression that Krivsky was a big Dunn fan. I have no idea what's going on with that situation, really.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:13 PM
They're healthy, they throw hard, they miss bats.

Those three things alone make Harang, Cueto, and Volquez better than ANYTHING that has put on the wishbone-C in almost 20 years.

They're good. Sustaining that good? A different story -- you're correct about that. But I prefer starting from this point than discussing whether Jimmy Haynes or Osvaldo Fernandez can make it happen.

And only one of those guys was acquired by Krivksy--in the only slam-dunk deal he made in his two years here.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:13 PM
I have always gotten the impression that Krivsky was a big Dunn fan. I have no idea what's going on with that situation, really.

I always got the opposite read -- Krivsky tolerated Dunn because he understood his production would be difficult to replicate, whereas Casty really seemed to like Dunn and wanted to make him a focal point of things.

There was massive speculation that a LTC would be offered to Dunn after he and Casty sat down for their 1-on-1 dinner, and that never materialized.

Maybe that was yet another thing that Casty and Krivsky didn't see eye-to-eye on?

Chip R
04-23-2008, 10:13 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if this is in the cards, but with a new boss in town, I guess that question is still as unanswered as it was before.


If part of the reason for Wayne's sacking was the bad contracts, Walt may be a little shy to sign anyone to a big money deal, not to mention a mega-huge deal like Dunn.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 10:15 PM
Could be.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:19 PM
And only one of those guys was acquired by Krivksy--in the only slam-dunk deal he made in his two years here.

Yup. But, I tend to look at the larger picture.

Harang is going to be a Red on a long-enough deal to keep him around for a window of competition thanks in no small part to Krivsky's contract maneuverings.

Volquez -- what else can you say? I don't care what Hamilton does, if this is what we can expect as a baseline from Volquez, he posterized them on that deal.

Cueto avoided being on a first-name basis with Tim Kremcheck. The last time the Reds had young fireballers in the minors that were going to charge their way into Cincinnati, things turned out differently. Where have you gone Thomas Pauley and Richie Gardner?

Drafting talented players is half the battle -- but an idiot with a scouting department and a subscription to Baseball America can bring talent into an organization. This Reds regime seems to actually have aptitude for DEVELOPING talent through the minors. Players -- gasp -- seem to get better as they go along.

Krivsky deserves a lot of credit for that, IMO.

cincrazy
04-23-2008, 10:21 PM
I wish Wayne nothing but the best. I think he's truly talented as a talent evaluator, and he'll land on his feet somewhere. Good luck.

Bob, I sure as hell hope you know what you're doing. A little too Steinbrenner'esque for my tastes, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Jocketty.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:24 PM
I wish Wayne nothing but the best. I think he's truly talented as a talent evaluator, and he'll land on his feet somewhere. Good luck.

Bob, I sure as hell hope you know what you're doing. A little too Steinbrenner'esque for my tastes, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt with Jocketty.

Sure wouldn't want a demanding owner, would we?

jojo
04-23-2008, 10:25 PM
If part of the reason for Wayne's sacking was the bad contracts, Walt may be a little shy to sign anyone to a big money deal, not to mention a mega-huge deal like Dunn.

Walt's got the credibility to sustain losing. Krivsky isn't "proven".

I think this philosophy will color a lot of personnel moves in the future.

Maybe the farm will be leveraged.

Reds Nd2
04-23-2008, 10:25 PM
Hey, been busy the past two weeks. Anything noteworthy happen with the Reds?

For the record, I think this is the best Reds team to take the field in eight years even if it is still a flawed enterprise. I don't think the 9-12 start is reason for concern and it certainly isn't reason to dump Krivsky.

Krivsky got fired because as soon as Walt Jocketty showed up he was always going to be fired for the first convenient excuse. That's just unconscious knowledge.

Still doesn't mean that I have to like it any better.


At the end of the day, I was a Wayne Krivsky supporter. He was working within the constraints of small market -- small market demands you nibble at the corners for some things while spending big money on others. Small market demands you gamble occasionally and hope to land the big score. He swung and miss on a few, he hit big on a few others.

The core of this team (Votto, Phillips, Keppinger, Dunn, Cueto, Volquez, Harang) WILL win. I'd lay my own money that they will be a postseason team within the next two years. Jocketty will get the credit, but it will be Krivsky that laid the foundation for this to happen.

I just want to give props to Wayne Krivsky for not destroying that foundation in a last ditch effort to stave off the specter of one Mr. Jocketty.


I wish Wayne nothing but the best.

He'll have another job in baseball, just as soon as he wishes. No doubt.

WVRed
04-23-2008, 10:26 PM
This is from Fay's blog tonight. Quotes from Krivsky:

Jocketty can be an excellent GM if he is provided the money to back up the moves. Of course, the same could be said for Jim Bowden.

This is the same guy who turned Placido Polanco and Bud Smith into Scott Rolen. Rolen had more of an impact than either of the two mentioned while wearing Cardinal red.

People are quick to give Krivsky credit for the farm development, but a lot of that credit should go to the scouting department and development staff. If anything, Krivsky's two first round picks, Drew Stubbs and Devin Mesorasco, have yet to prove anything in the minors.

Only problem is, Jocketty really isn't much better when it comes to minor league development. This is Jim Bowden without the leather pants.

IMO, this is a move that was made to signal the Reds into mid-market territory. Couple this with Dusty Baker and it shows the Reds are willing to spend money to get recognizable baseball people into the organization. If the atmosphere can change, there will be an opportunity to gain some veteran players who might consider meshing with the young talent we have.

At the same time, both of the moves could very easily backfire.

GAC
04-23-2008, 10:28 PM
Wow, this is great news.

Even if you loved Wayne, you've got to love the fact that Cast is not complacent and will not accept mediocrity. This is great.

Wayne certianly wasn't the worse GM we had. He brought in some talent. His supporters have a good point there, but he also made many mistakes.

I'm so pumped about having Jocketty take over. This is the most optimisitc I've been about this club in a LONG time.

Way to kick some booty Cast. It's great having an owner that wants to win, instead of being on the perpetual 5 year plan.

Who is gonna kick Cast's booty? As far as I'm concerned, as the owner, he is solely responsible for this situation. So why is he getting a free pass as if all this is WK's fault?

He HIRED Krivsky
Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.
Bob had nothing to do, no involvement (giving his OK) to even those bad deals/trades that turned awry?

I'm not saying the GM doesn't carry any culpibility. Wayne certainly does. And there are probably several sound reasons to justify his firing. The timing really sucked. Totally classless of this owner who sites his impatience as the sole reason IMO. But I'm also tired of an owner who keeps saying he's tired of losing, want's to win now (which seems to appease some), and as far as I'm concerned is the main culprit.

Ya gotta have your scapegoat I guess.

We all pretty much knew that when Jocketty was brought in as a "special advisor" that Wayne's days were numbered.

They hired a BIG NAME manager, and now have their BIG NAME GM. I'm really impressed. :rolleyes:

Symbolism over substance as far as I'm concerned.

There were sound reasons as to why these two were FIRED from their previous jobs. They had no farm system in St. Louis, and Jocketty acknowledges that this is an area where he has no expertise, and is a weakness. Yes, that is a concern for me. He's the type of guy that, IMHO, will trade away any future we have, even if it is a Jay Bruce, as long as it mets Bob C's vision of WIN NOW.

Thank God I didn't buy any ticket packages this year. I have a feeling it's gonna get ugly.

I wonder how much impatience Bob will have with the "Walt and Dusty Show"?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:29 PM
I don't think the "core" of this team is very good. If this team is going to be a postseason team, Walt Jocketty's going to have to make some very big changes to get them there, and as a result, will likely lay claim to bigger chunk of the credit.

But I think it's entirely possible that even Jocketty can't get this team to where they want to go. And I certainly don't think it's at all a given that Krivsky was on the winning track.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:30 PM
Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.

Nothing Krivsky said today even hinted at this being fact.

KronoRed
04-23-2008, 10:30 PM
Sure wouldn't want a demanding owner, would we?

Demanding is one thing, unrealistically insane is quite another.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:31 PM
Demanding is one thing, unrealistically insane is quite another.

Wayne wasn't taking this team to the postseason. All the other stuff is details.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:31 PM
Demanding is one thing, unrealistically insane is quite another.
It depends how much money he is willing to dish out.

Chip R
04-23-2008, 10:32 PM
Walt's got the credibility to sustain losing. Krivsky isn't "proven".

I think this philosophy will color a lot of personnel moves in the future.

Maybe the farm will be leveraged.

Perhaps. But they may feel Bruce's production could replace Dunn's and with the bonus that he's young and cheap and plays better defense. Walt may go to Bob and say, "Bob, I'd like to sign Dunn to a multi-year deal for big, big money." Bob says, "Geez, Walt, I like the guy but that's a lot of money. We all liked Bronson too but look how that went."

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:33 PM
I don't think the "core" of this team is very good. If this team is going to be a postseason team, Walt Jocketty's going to have to make some very big changes to get them there, and as a result, will likely lay claim to bigger chunk of the credit.

The majority of what this team needs is already in this team's system.

Jay Bruce replacing KGJ, Homer Bailey entering the rotation, Bill Bray and a few of the AA relievers joining the bullpen. They might not help change fates in 2008, but after a year of experience at the start of '09....

This team is close. I say that, and I don't consider myself a homer in any way.

GAC
04-23-2008, 10:33 PM
And only one of those guys was acquired by Krivksy--in the only slam-dunk deal he made in his two years here.

That is a purely ridiculous assertion on your part.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2008, 10:33 PM
I don't understand this move at all. Personally, I hope the Cards sign Krivsky ;-)

I liked Jocketty as the Cards GM, but it was time for him to go. I don't see how he can be effective in Cincinnati unless the Reds ownership are prepared to open up their wallets. I red an article on the Reds website about the move stating that Krivsky's biggest mistake was trading Kearns and Lopez. Well, compare that to Jocketty trading Dan Haren, Daric Barton, and Kiko Calero for Mark Mulder. I thought Jocketty did a good job in St. Louis until that trade. IMO, that trade was the begining of the end for Jocketty in St. Louis. Imagine if he would make a comparable trade like that as Reds GM. Krivsky has signed several players that I would have loved to have as Cardinals, and he signed them cheap. Jocketty hands out big contracts when he signs/trades for players. I don't see how that philosophy will work for the Reds.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:34 PM
I don't understand this move at all. Personally, I hope the Cards sign Krivsky ;-)

I liked Jocketty as the Cards GM, but it was time for him to go. I don't see how he can be effective in Cincinnati unless the Reds ownership are prepared to open up their wallets. I red an article on the Reds website about the move stating that Krivsky's biggest mistake was trading Kearns and Lopez. Well, compare that to Jocketty trading Dan Haren, Daric Barton, and Kiko Calero for Mark Mulder. I thought Jocketty did a good job in St. Louis until that trade. IMO, that trade was the begining of the end for Jocketty in St. Louis. Imagine if he would make a comparable trade like that as Reds GM. Krivsky has signed several players that I would have loved to have as Cardinals, and he signed them cheap. Jocketty hands out big contracts when he signs/trades for players. I don't see how that philosophy will work for the Reds.
Who?

Josh Fogg over Kyle Loshe was a blunder as well, especially with the way Arroyo is pitching.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:36 PM
Who?

You could start with Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Jared Burton, and Edinson Volquez (by way of Josh Hamilton).

I think they, collectively, cost the Reds two A-Ballers and $50,000 in cash.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:37 PM
I don't understand this move at all. Personally, I hope the Cards sign Krivsky ;-)

I liked Jocketty as the Cards GM, but it was time for him to go. I don't see how he can be effective in Cincinnati unless the Reds ownership are prepared to open up their wallets. I red an article on the Reds website about the move stating that Krivsky's biggest mistake was trading Kearns and Lopez. Well, compare that to Jocketty trading Dan Haren, Daric Barton, and Kiko Calero for Mark Mulder. I thought Jocketty did a good job in St. Louis until that trade. IMO, that trade was the begining of the end for Jocketty in St. Louis. Imagine if he would make a comparable trade like that as Reds GM. Krivsky has signed several players that I would have loved to have as Cardinals, and he signed them cheap. Jocketty hands out big contracts when he signs/trades for players. I don't see how that philosophy will work for the Reds.

At least Jocketty extended the right guys for the most part. We got a bunch of needless years of Arroyo, Brandon Phillips, not enough of Dunn, too much Stanton, Cormier, Majewski.

Two plus years in and this organization is still a mess from top to bottom. I'll grant you one thing: Jocketty's got his hands full; if he fails, it won't be a huge surprise.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:37 PM
You could start with Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Jared Burton, and Edinson Volquez (by way of Josh Hamilton).

I think they, collectively, cost the Reds two A-Ballers and $50,000 in cash.

they weren't signed...

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:37 PM
You could start with Jeff Keppinger, Brandon Phillips, Jared Burton, and Edinson Volquez (by way of Josh Hamilton).

I think they, collectively, cost the Reds two A-Ballers and $50,000 in cash.
He didn't sign any of those guys. They all came over via trades or the rule 5.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2008, 10:38 PM
Who?

Josh Fogg over Kyle Loshe was a blunder as well, especially with the way Arroyo is pitching.

Josh Hamilton, Brandon Phillips, and Jerry Hairston Jr were Rule 5's and cheap signings. I'd take all of them as Cards.

MattyHo4Life
04-23-2008, 10:39 PM
He didn't sign any of those guys. They all came over via trades or the rule 5.


Is that a bad thing?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:39 PM
That is a purely ridiculous assertion on your part.

One other great deal--Pena for Arroyo--was countervailed by his idiotic extension of a junkballer. Take the career year and spin it into other stuff.

But yeah, Wayne's only GREAT move--defining move--was Volquez.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:40 PM
Is that a bad thing?

Only if you like bidding wars, never getting great value, and dealing with agents all day.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:41 PM
One other great deal--Pena for Arroyo--was countervailed by his idiotic extension of a junkballer. Take the career year and spin it into other stuff.

But yeah, Wayne's only GREAT move--defining move--was Volquez.
The good from Arroyo has netted the Reds absolutely nothing so far. Who knows if he will ever return to form, and like you said he now has a huge extension in his back pocket.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 10:41 PM
One other great deal--Pena for Arroyo--was countervailed by his idiotic extension of a junkballer. Take the career year and spin it into other stuff.

But yeah, Wayne's only GREAT move--defining move--was Volquez.

Brandon Phillips says hello. He was one of those "diamond in the rough" findings.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:42 PM
One other great deal--Pena for Arroyo--was countervailed by his idiotic extension of a junkballer. Take the career year and spin it into other stuff.

But yeah, Wayne's only GREAT move--defining move--was Volquez.

:confused:

Isn't it too early to make any definitive statements like that?

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:42 PM
Brandon Phillips says hello.

Dude. I think Brandon Phillips is currently proving my initial "ick" reaction to him 100% right. I'm not going to pat myself on the back about it, because the guy had a nice career year, but that extension was a huge gaffe.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:44 PM
:confused:

Isn't it too early to make any definitive statements like that?

Why? Volquez could get hurt I guess. Provided he doesn't, that's about it, no? What other moves has he made in trade that netted the team a high-ceiling starter?

Am I missing any?

:confused:

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:44 PM
Dude. I think Brandon Phillips is currently proving my initial "ick" reaction to him 100% right. I'm not going to pat myself on the back about it, because the guy had a nice career year, but that extension was a huge gaffe.

Don't you think we've got a bit of a small sample size problem here?

Cedric
04-23-2008, 10:44 PM
Dude. I think Brandon Phillips is currently proving my initial "ick" reaction to him 100% right. I'm not going to pat myself on the back about it, because the guy had a nice career year, but that extension was a huge gaffe.

I think you and others ripped him after he started coming back to earth in 06 also. I wouldn't pat yourself on the back for that reason. He's streaky and I doubt he stays down for long.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 10:45 PM
Don't you think we've got a bit of a small sample size problem here?

A bit.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:46 PM
A .750 OPS 2nd baseman isn't exactly the Hope Diamond.

guttle11
04-23-2008, 10:49 PM
A .750 OPS 2nd baseman isn't exactly the Hope Diamond.

No, but a middle infielder with pop and just about top of the line defense is worth some coin. Phillips isn't making $12 mil a year. There always risk involved with multi year deals, but his contract looks perfectly fine to me.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:50 PM
No, but a middle infielder with pop and just about top of the line defense is worth some coin.

He's not a top 5 defensive second baseman. Top 10 maybe. And I think a lot of that pop was ephemeral.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 10:51 PM
He's not a top 5 defensive second baseman. Top 10 maybe. And I think a lot of that pop was ephemeral.

He had a better year defensively last year than the gold glove winner, but whatever.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:53 PM
Brandon Phillips says hello. He was one of those "diamond in the rough" findings.
Yes, he found both him and Keppinger as diamonds in the rough on offense. He also has overseen the destruction of a really good offense to the offense the Reds have today--big game once a week and besides that 3 runs a game.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:53 PM
He's not a top 5 defensive second baseman. Top 10 maybe. And I think a lot of that pop was ephemeral.
Now you are reaching.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 10:55 PM
Why? Volquez could get hurt I guess. Provided he doesn't, that's about it, no? What other moves has he made in trade that netted the team a high-ceiling starter?

Am I missing any?

:confused:

referrring more specifically to you saying it was his only good move. But yeah, check Daryl Thompson's stats so far in AA...

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:55 PM
Now you are reaching.

How? I think it's perfectly sound to say that his defense is maybe top ten, and that his power is probably more limited than what we saw last year.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:55 PM
No, but a middle infielder with pop and just about top of the line defense is worth some coin. Phillips isn't making $12 mil a year. There always risk involved with multi year deals, but his contract looks perfectly fine to me.
Phillips contract isn't in the top 10 of things Krivsky did wrong. Castro, Stanton, Coffey, Freel, Cormier, Gonzalez, Ross, Valentin....

We've all seen the threads on here, how much dead salary does this team have right now?

This team is going to have to replace both Griffey and Dunn at the end of the year as well. Think of how ugly the offense will get then.

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 10:56 PM
He's not a top 5 defensive second baseman. Top 10 maybe. And I think a lot of that pop was ephemeral.

He's entering age-prime years. I'd figure 30 HRs again is a stretch (he had more than a few "just made it" homers last year), but I think 20 HRs is very realistic. Pencil him in for around 20-25 SBs as well, which augments his doubles power. His OBP was .331 last year, and I think he'll walk a few more times this year (he's already on pace for 50 walks this year) and push that closer to .340.

If he's giving you that -- roughly ~.800 OPS -- he has value at his contract level.

And yes, I think his defense is just about as good as it gets at 2B.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:56 PM
How? I think it's perfectly sound to say that his defense is maybe top ten, and that his power is probably more limited than what we saw last year.
He plays better defense then you are giving him credit for. I'd be surprised if he ever goes 30/30 again though.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:56 PM
referrring more specifically to you saying it was his only good move. But yeah, check Daryl Thompson's stats so far in AA...

Next you'll be telling me to check out Homer's AAA stats. :cool: But seriously, MLB is HARD to break into.

TRF
04-23-2008, 10:56 PM
How? I think it's perfectly sound to say that his defense is maybe top ten, and that his power is probably more limited than what we saw last year.

No, that's completely flawed. his defense is top 5, maybe the best in the NL. His offense is way overrated.

reds44
04-23-2008, 10:58 PM
referrring more specifically to you saying it was his only good move. But yeah, check Daryl Thompson's stats so far in AA...
So Daryl Thompson's 4 good starts all of a sudden makes the trade a good one?

How about what he did with Brendan Harris?
Or Cody Ross for that matter?

Think of how much offensive talent he has shipped out and got very little return for.

Pena
Kearns
Lopez
Harris
Ross
Hamilton (not saying that wasn't a good trade)

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Baker misses call about Krivsky firing
Listen to this article or download audio file.Click-2-Listen

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Thursday, April 24, 2008

CINCINNATI — Dusty Baker turned off his cell phone, "To get some rest, catch up on some sleep," so he didn't get the call from CEO Bob Castellini. When Baker awoke, he called Wayne Krivsky, "To discuss two or three things," and that's when he discovered Krivsky was fired.

He needed to discuss those two or three things with new GM Walt Jocketty.

"This is a part of baseball and nobody likes to have it happen to them," said Baker. "Anybody in this game is going to have it happen to them. I only had it happen once, in Chicago. It's not very pleasant."

Baker said the switch from Krivsky to Jocketty will be seamless for him.

"I've been knowing Walt a long time," said Baker. "He was an assistant GM in 1985-86 when I played for the A's. When he was at Colorado and St. Louis, I was managing against his teams.

"Walt is going to do fine," he said. "He's won executive of the year a couple of times (three). I hope this all works out — works out for us, works out for Walt, works out for Wayne and we win, because it is Wayne's team."

Baker checked his roster and said, "They have some big decisions to make here. We have 13 free agents and that's a lot.

Griffey's reaction

Was Ken Griffey Jr. surprised by the dismissal of general manager Wayne Krivsky?

"Oh, yeah. You wake up in the morning, turn on the TV and you see that?" he said. "I wasn't consulted. I'm only employee No. 3, y'know?"

When told Walt Jocketty is his sixth general manager since he came to the Reds in 2000, Griffey uttered one word: "Damn."

Then he added, "It ain't my fault, coach. You never want to see anybody lose their job. Bob (Castellini) felt there had to be a change. He's the guy who controls this."

Griffey then hit his 597th career home run in the first inning to give the Reds a short-lived 1-0 lead — before the Astros scored eight unanswered runs against Reds starter Bronson Arroyo.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/04/23/ddn042408spredsnotes.html

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 10:58 PM
No, that's completely flawed. his defense is top 5, maybe the best in the NL. His offense is way overrated.

His defense is certainly top 5 in the NL, but not in MLB. No way.

reds44
04-23-2008, 11:00 PM
His defense is certainly top 5 in the NL, but not in MLB. No way.
Name who you think is better.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 11:01 PM
So Daryl Thompson's 4 good starts all of a sudden makes the trade a good one?

Ummm... Read what he asked me...


What other moves has he made in trade that netted the team a high-ceiling starter?

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:01 PM
Jocketty takes over as Reds GM
He says the culture and mindset of the club needs to change

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Wednesday, April 23, 2008

CINCINNATI — Walt Jocketty, with his soft smile and white bread hair, doesn't appear to be a vindictive person, but he revealed a small piece of his competitive personality at the media conference announcing his elevation to Director of Baseball Operations/General Manager of the Cincinnati Reds.

"Trust me, me and Dusty Baker are very motivated, both guys with a vendetta, a little chip on our shoulders," he said.

That's because Jocketty was fired as GM of the St. Louis Cardinals after last season and Baker was fired as Chicago Cubs manager after the 2006 season. Both teams are with the Reds in the National League Central, making them targets for Jocketty and Baker.

General manager Wayne Krivsky was fired Wednesday, April 23, by CEO Bob Castellini and replaced by Jocketty, with whom Castellini worked in St. Louis when Jocketty was there, with Jocketty saying, "I still think we can win this division."

Under Jocketty, the Cardinals were in the playoffs seven times in 13 years after a long period of losers. Jocketty believes he can do in Cincinnati what he did in St. Louis when he took over in 1994, in less time.

"With the history of this franchise, it is very close to the situation I had in St. Louis," he said. "It has a winning tradition, great fans, a great community — but they hadn't won in St. Louis in a long time, either. There are a lot similarities to the St. Louis and Cincinnati situations, storied franchises with great traditions.

"And I think this organization is in better shape right now than St. Louis was and it won't take as long to turns things around here," he added.

Jocketty plans no immediate shakeups, either on the playing roster or the front office, until he thoroughly looks and tinkers under the hood.

"We need to change the culture and the mindset, in the clubhouse and the front office, that we can win," he said. "You need a positive approach and not look at the negatives. There is talent here, plus we have a proven manager (Dusty Baker). It is a matter of changing the focus to a winning culture."

Castellini, in a glum mood on this day, said Krivsky was fired basically because of the team's 9-12 start. He added that some of Krivsky's player personnel moves that left the team holding bags of money owed to players no longer playing entered into the dismissal, too.

Then he put some pressure on Jocketty's shoulders when he said, "We've come to a point where, well, we're just not going to lose any more."

Jocketty laughed that one off and said, "I'm not worried about that because I'm doing this because I want to do it, not that I need to do it."

He has been in baseball 33 years and while with the Cardinals was named Major League Baseball Executive of the Year three times.

After the Cardinals fired him, Jocketty was hired by the Reds as a special consultant to Castellini and the handwriting was on the executive bathroom walls — Jocketty was the next Reds GM.

Castellini didn't plan to make the move until Krivsky's contract expired after this season, but when the Reds limped out of the gate the impatient Castellini acted.

Asked his baseball philosophy, Jocketty said, "Basic philosophy, win."

And he added, "I try to build a team with pitching and defense. Scoring runs is about however your team is built — power, the ball park, running game, smallball. Generally, though, pitching and defense. That sounds easy, pretty simple, but there is a lot to it."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/04/23/ddn042408spredsb1web.html

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 11:03 PM
Phillips is #2 in the NL defensively at 2B in my book...

Spring~Fields
04-23-2008, 11:07 PM
Baker checked his roster and said, "They have some big decisions to make here. We have 13 free agents and that's a lot.



I did not know that they had 13. That is a whole lot of fixing that the new GM will have to do, going to be interesting.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 11:09 PM
Name who you think is better.

Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 11:10 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

Definetly forgot Orlando Hudson...

reds44
04-23-2008, 11:11 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.
No Orlando Hudson?

I'd disagree with the first three you listed.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:11 PM
Reds players surprised by GM change
Baker, team ready to move forward with proven winner
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- It never occurred to Dusty Baker to turn his phone on Wednesday morning.

The Reds manager was asleep when the call came from owner/CEO Bob Castellini that he had decided to replace general manager Wayne Krivsky with Walt Jocketty.

"He left me a message. He was trying to reach me," Baker said. "My phone is off in the morning so I can get some rest."

Baker hadn't checked his messages yet when he called Krivsky after waking up.

"I went to call Wayne on some things, and he informed me," Baker said. "My take is I don't know what to take on it right now.

"It's part of baseball. Nobody likes it. Nobody likes to have it happen to them. Anybody that's in this game, it's going to happen to them for whatever the reasons are. I didn't have it happen to me until I was in Chicago when my contract expired [in 2006]. I was basically fired. It's not a very pleasant feeling about yourself. Wayne's a good baseball man. I know he will land on his feet some place. He's been in the game a long time with a lot of people."

Reds players were also stunned to get the news that their boss was let go only 21 games into the season. Ken Griffey Jr. learned about the change, literally through channels.

"I turned on the TV and that?," Griffey said. "You never want to see anybody lose their job. Bob felt that there had to be a change. He's got control of this, and he pulled the trigger."

"I just heard about it on my way in," rotation ace Aaron Harang said. "It's kind of a shock. I guess we weren't going the way the owners felt we could be going, and they decided to make some changes."

Harang was aware of Jocketty's history from his 13 seasons as the Cardinals' GM. St. Louis went to the playoffs seven times and won a World Series in 2006.

"He has a reputation," Harang said. "He ended up turning St. Louis around and making them a very solid organization and a very good team. Hopefully, that's what Bob and the rest of the owners were looking for. Seeing his past track record, they obviously think he can do something good."

Jocketty, who was a special advisor to Castellini before the latest move, was on the Reds' most recent road trip through Milwaukee, Pittsburgh and Chicago. He and Baker often talked, and they've already met about their plans going forward.

Baker and Jocketty, however, weren't strangers by any stretch before this season.

"I've known Walt forever," Baker said. "I remember Walt when he was my last assistant GM in 1985-86 with the A's when I was a player. [When he was] in Colorado and St. Louis, I battled against Walt's teams many times. Walt's going to do fine."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080423&content_id=2574609&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

guttle11
04-23-2008, 11:13 PM
Arguing about defense is circular. They're all really good, and they don't field the same batted balls. Impossible to truly judge.

And guess what? Phillips makes right about the same/less money then those other guys do/will when it's their time to get a raise. Pop in the bat, ability to steal many more bases than times caught stealing, and very good defense up the middle. All at a competitive salary?

Sign me up. Twice.

IslandRed
04-23-2008, 11:16 PM
Reds are going to out-Steinbrenner everyone.


Goodness, I hope so.

The Steinbrenner method requires bigger checks than Bob's going to write. :p:

That was the crux of the post I made in another thread. Checkbook baseball was about the only way a team could get from where the Reds were in February 2006 to where Castellini is demanding they ought to be now, particularly with the Cubs finally acting like a big-market team. Not that I believe Castellini should have gone way into his own pocket to do that; far from it. But if he wasn't going to use his wallet to supercharge the process, he needed to understand that the natural cycle of these things is longer than two years.

But then, that's just overanalyzing on my part. The truth is pretty simple in retrospect -- Castellini had a chance to put the guy he knew and trusted in the GM's chair and he did it at the first plausible moment. I should have seen it coming but I figured it was Krivsky's final season and he'd at least finish it before he was sent packing.

And, while I give Krivsky a lot of credit for rebuilding the organization's talent base, I grant that Jocketty's probably the better choice to take it from here.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 11:16 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

Most of those guys are comparable and debating them is a waste of time. Ian Kinsler is not in that group...

Reds Nd2
04-23-2008, 11:18 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

Only one National League player in the bunch. Try again.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 11:19 PM
Only one National League player in the bunch. Try again.

I said he WAS top five in the NL.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 11:21 PM
Most of those guys are comparable and debating them is a waste of time. Ian Kinsler is not in that group...

Probably. But my larger point is unchanged. Last year was likely a career offensive year, and defense never gets better as a player ages; not wise to extend him when you didn't have to.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 11:22 PM
Probably. But my larger point is unchanged. Last year was likely a career offensive year, and defense never gets better as a player ages; not wise to extend him when you didn't have to.

I agree. I think the only thing that we disagreed on was when you said others are better defensively. Comparable yes, better no...

Caveat Emperor
04-23-2008, 11:26 PM
Probably. But my larger point is unchanged. Last year was likely a career offensive year, and defense never gets better as a player ages; not wise to extend him when you didn't have to.

He's entering age prime.

He might never post the flash that he did last year, but I think he can replicate the baseline numbers behind the counting stats. He's already on pace to walk more this year than he did last year. That's a Good Thing™.

Moving him to a more appropriate position in the lineup (5th/6th) would also help.

Reds Nd2
04-23-2008, 11:32 PM
I said he WAS top five in the NL.

When in reality, he's in the top two defensivley in the NL.

At least you got Chase Utley correct. I guess that means something.

pedro
04-23-2008, 11:35 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

FWIW, Baseball Prospectus rated Phillips better than all those guys except Cano for last year although with the exception of Cano (+28 runs) they were all fairly comparable.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 11:39 PM
When in reality, he's in the top two defensivley in the NL.

At least you got Chase Utley correct. I guess that means something.

Ronny Cedeno
Hudson

As I said, I'm going on recollection here.

I don't disagree that Phillips is a good second baseman defensively. He is. Being top ten in MLB at a position means you are good. I just don't think his extension was warranted. Which is a perfectly defensible position.

reds44
04-23-2008, 11:43 PM
Ronny Cedeno?

He's never played 2nd base everyday.

Falls City Beer
04-23-2008, 11:43 PM
Ronny Cedeno?

He's never played 2nd base everyday.

True.

OnBaseMachine
04-23-2008, 11:44 PM
Krivsky didn't see change coming
BY SHANNON RUSSELL | SRUSSELL@ENQUIRER.COM

When Reds president and CEO Bob Castellini asked Wayne Krivsky on Tuesday night what time he’d be in the office the following morning, Krivsky didn’t think much about it.

Eight-thirty, he said.

“Good,” Castellini said. “We’ll have a meeting.”

Who Wants To Pay Less Taxes This Year?

Building Strength and Muscle without Illegal Substances

Is Your Computer Slower Than When You Bought It?

At that meeting, Krivsky learned that Reds ownership brought him in to be fired.

Less than three years after taking over the club’s general manager position, Krivsky was replaced on Wednesday by former St. Louis general manager Walt Jocketty.

Krivsky was said he spent an hour trying to save his job. Castellini didn’t budge.

“I did not see this coming all,” Krivsky said.

“Having said that, I told Bob I was real appreciative of the opportunity. I worked 29 years to get an opportunity like this in the city of Cincinnati, starving for a winner, (with a) great sports town and great tradition, and I still think it’s a gold mine. I really do. That’s what hurts so much – not to see the job through to the end and bring that winner to Cincinnati.”

Until Wednesday, he said he dreamed of celebrating in the clubhouse someday with champagne. In his 15-plus minute farewell speech, he mourned his abbreviated stay and gave thanks to many people at Great American Ball Park.

When asked if he had had enough time to do what he wanted to accomplish in Cincinnati, the New York native became emotional.

“I can only say good things. I love it here. And…” he started before stopping to compose himself.

One of Krivsky’s biggest regrets is not working with manager Dusty Baker. He recommended Baker for the job, and still believes the skipper is “the right guy to take this team forward and win.”

When Baker talked to Krivsky Wednesday, he said the former general manager was upset, bewildered and emotional.

Baker was also surprised, although he’s convinced Krivsky will land with another team.

Krivsky, 53, isn’t ruling out another run at general management. But to be frank, he said, the only place he wants to be is here.

He said one of his Reds highlights was bringing up pitcher Tom Shearn from Triple-A Louisville last season. Krivsky said Shearn recently returned the sentiment.

“When Tom Shearn goes to a booster club at the Louisville ball park and says Wayne Krivsky is the only GM I’ve ever seen that comes down to the field and interacts with the players and knows their names – that’s really neat,” Krivsky said.

In the end, the Reds’ losing records were the impetus for change.

“Wayne Krivsky did a whale of a job in so many areas,” Castellini said. “It just comes to the point where … we’re just not going to lose anymore.”

Krivsky said there was nothing he would have done differently.

“I’m going to walk out of here with my head held high and feeling good, and I’m going to sleep good tonight, I hope,” Krivsky said. “You know, maybe not tonight. Maybe the next night.”

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/ab/20080423/SPT04/304230102

M2
04-23-2008, 11:46 PM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

In order - hell no, no, hell no, solid but doesn't have a ton of range, I like Phillips better.

*BaseClogger*
04-23-2008, 11:49 PM
FWIW, Baseball Prospectus rated Phillips better than all those guys except Cano for last year although with the exception of Cano (+28 runs) they were all fairly comparable.

BaseballProspectus FRAA:
Utley +4
Kinsler +5
Pedroia +12
Phillips +15
Hudson +15
Hill +20
Cano +23

FWIW

redsrule2500
04-23-2008, 11:54 PM
I just saw the interview with Krivsky saying "I really love it here" and started crying :O

wow.....

I really don't think this was a good move

reds44
04-23-2008, 11:57 PM
I just saw the interview with Krivsky saying "I really love it here" and started crying :O

wow.....

I really don't think this was a good move
Because he cried?

VR
04-23-2008, 11:58 PM
I think Wayne did some great things....some very poor things.....and perhaps will learn from his mistakes and often poor media skills.

He was better than DanO, and hopefully WJ can keep moving forward....because it is a wildly improved all-around organization from 3-4 short years ago.

Matt700wlw
04-23-2008, 11:59 PM
Walt Jocketty should bring October baseball back to Cincinnati
April 23, 2008

Richard Justice

Wednesday was a good day for the Cincinnati Reds. They didn't just hire a new general manager. They hired one of baseball's most successful general managers.

Walt Jocketty has both credibility and a terrific track record. Years from now, that's the part of the story people will remember. Departing GM Wayne Krivsky might have had his feelings hurt, but that's going to happen when franchises are rebuilt.

Mark it on your calendar. This is going to be remembered as the day the Reds began their climb back to prominence.

The Reds desperately needed stability, and now with Bob Castellini as CEO, Dusty Baker as manager and Jocketty as GM, they've got it. In the last six years, they've had four general managers, four managers and two owners.

Now the pieces are in place. The St. Louis Cardinals went to the playoffs seven times in 12 years with Jocketty in charge. He acquired or developed the core players on two National League championship teams, one of which won the World Series.

He didn't do a great job in player development, but by getting Chris Carpenter, Larry Walker and others for almost nothing, he did his job.

He was stripped of some of his power after the Cardinals won the 2006 World Series, and his departure seemed a foregone conclusion.

Castellini, who had once been part of the ownership group in St. Louis, brought in Jocketty as a consultant last January.

Some of Jocketty's closest friends swear he didn't want to be GM; rather, he wanted to help Krivsky any way he could.

Problem is, Krivsky apparently saw Jocketty as a threat no matter how many people tried to tell him he was anything but. Krivsky seldom sought Jocketty's advice, and he froze him out of the decision-making process.

Krivsky did some good things for Cincinnati before his firing. He made nice deals to acquire Bronson Arroyo, Brandon Phillips and Edinson Volquez. He was methodically rebuilding the farm system.

He also made plenty of mistakes. In the end, those mistakes did him in. He signed Rheal Cormier and Mike Stanton and ended up paying them $6.5 million not to pitch.

He gave Corey Patterson $3 million even though Patterson was out of work and probably would have signed for the minimum. He overpaid Ryan Freel and Josh Fogg, as well.

His $46-million deal for Francisco Cordero may end up being a bad signing.

Bad contracts could have been forgiven if the Reds had been winning, but the team looked like it was headed toward its eighth straight losing season when the axe fell of Krivsky.

Plenty of baseball people were glad to see Krivsky get the chance to be a general manager. He was a grassroots baseball man, working his way up the ladder with the Rangers and Twins.

He had contacts and years of institutional knowledge. What he didn't have and might never have was the credibility that Jocketty brings to any discussion with other general managers.

Jocketty and Tony La Russa were the perfect team in St. Louis. Around this time last year, some baseball insiders believed both would end up working for Castellini in Cincinnati. But La Russa re-signed with the Cardinals, and Dusty Baker got the Reds' managerial job.

Now Jocketty is being given the task of resurrecting baseball in one of America's best baseball cities. At the moment, the Reds don't have enough hitting or pitching.

They do have two premier prospects in outfielder Jay Bruce and lefthander Homer Bailey. Jocketty's track record says he will succeed. There aren't many things better than October baseball in Cincinnati -- and it's going to return.

redsrule2500
04-24-2008, 12:01 AM
Because he cried?

No. I never thought it was good. But that DOES show that he cared deeply for this position, so his motivation and enthusiasm shouldn't be questioned at this point IMO.

MikeS21
04-24-2008, 12:03 AM
Who is gonna kick Cast's booty? As far as I'm concerned, as the owner, he is solely responsible for this situation. So why is he getting a free pass as if all this is WK's fault?

He HIRED Krivsky
Dusty Baker was Bob's choice, not WK's.
Bob had nothing to do, no involvement (giving his OK) to even those bad deals/trades that turned awry?

I'm not saying the GM doesn't carry any culpibility. Wayne certainly does. And there are probably several sound reasons to justify his firing. The timing really sucked. Totally classless of this owner who sites his impatience as the sole reason IMO. But I'm also tired of an owner who keeps saying he's tired of losing, want's to win now (which seems to appease some), and as far as I'm concerned is the main culprit.

Ya gotta have your scapegoat I guess.

We all pretty much knew that when Jocketty was brought in as a "special advisor" that Wayne's days were numbered.

They hired a BIG NAME manager, and now have their BIG NAME GM. I'm really impressed. :rolleyes:

Symbolism over substance as far as I'm concerned.

There were sound reasons as to why these two were FIRED from their previous jobs. They had no farm system in St. Louis, and Jocketty acknowledges that this is an area where he has no expertise, and is a weakness. Yes, that is a concern for me. He's the type of guy that, IMHO, will trade away any future we have, even if it is a Jay Bruce, as long as it mets Bob C's vision of WIN NOW.

Thank God I didn't buy any ticket packages this year. I have a feeling it's gonna get ugly.

I wonder how much impatience Bob will have with the "Walt and Dusty Show"?
Pretty much my sentiments, exactly.

It's not even the "crown jewels" I'm concerned about, as much as I am guys like Todd Frazier, Juan Fransisco, Danny Dorn, and others, who will probably be sacrificed on the altar of "Win Now." Obviously, none of those players are Jay Bruce like prospects and never will be. But they do provide a solid pipeline that eases the constant need of trades and free agents. What good will it do to trade them to bring in players who may or may not perform up to expectations?

Everyone blasts Krivsky over "The Trade." But for the life of me I cannot figure out what the Reds actally lost when they gave up Kerns, Lopez, and Wagner. We act like Krivisky traded away Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas. I don't want to rehash that trade or beat a dead horse. Let's just say neither team got what they expected. And I think Bray and Thompson will eventually cause us to ask, "Austin Who?" Based on all the information at his disposal, Krivsky felt it was logical to assume that Majewski would at least maintain his level of pitching - which had been very good for the Expos/Nationals. But Krivsky was wrong.

Now here's my concern. Jocketty will trade off all the depth the Reds have gathered in the minor leagues in order to bring in players he assumes will maintain their level of play. He will use pretty much the same criteria to guage talent as Krivsky (except he might treat his advisors a little nicer in the process). But the end result is he depletes the farm system by bringing in other players - like Majewski - who, on paper, should help this team, but who very probably will fail to live up to their billing. As a fan, that is unacceptable.

I would rather see this team struggle through a year or two of growing pains by home grown talent, than to see the talent traded away in return for players that other teams are trying to unload.

There was reason Walt Jocketty was let go in St. Louis, and it stemmed directly to his disagreements with Jeff Luhnow, who was trying to bring a more analytical approach to player development in the Cardinals' organization. It is also significant that the new GM is John Mozeliak, who already had leanings towards analytical philosophy of development. And one of the finalist for the job was Chris Antonelli, who is about as sabermetric as they come.

All Castellini has accomplished with this move is that he has replaced the captain of the Titanic with a different captain. And the new captain still wants to go through the same ice field.

reds44
04-24-2008, 12:14 AM
No. I never thought it was good. But that DOES show that he cared deeply for this position, so his motivation and enthusiasm shouldn't be questioned at this point IMO.
Who questioned either of those characteristics?

Reds Nd2
04-24-2008, 12:17 AM
Ronny Cedeno
Hudson

As I said, I'm going on recollection here.

I'm not. I'd take Brandon Phillips over both of them.


I just don't think his extension was warranted. Which is a perfectly defensible position.

Ok. Why?

08:$2.75M, 09:$4.75M, 10:$6.75M, 11:$11M, 12:$12M club option ($1M buyout)

What's so bad about that for a 26 year old who is among the top two defensive 2B in the NL?

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 12:19 AM
Castellini's impatience doomed Krivsky
Wednesday, April 23, 2008, 06:36 PM EST [Reds]

Hours after being told he was no longer the general manager of the Cincinnati Reds, Wayne Krivsky's eyes were red and he spoke slowly and chose his words carefully.

He'd fought for an hour to keep his job earlier in the day, but it was not enough. In the end, there was one unwavering truth -- Reds owner Bob Castellini is not a patient man.

"Bob will admit he's an impatient person," Krivsky said.

But Castellini is in a patient man's game. Unlike vegetables that can be counted on to product based on a yearly cycle, baseball teams and organizations take longer to cultivate.

Wayne Krivsky is a patient man, Bob Castellini is not.

"We're just not going to lose anymore," Castellini said Wednesday.

That is Castellini's will. His way was to replace Krivsky with Walt Jocketty, who led the St. Louis Cardinals to six division titles, a Wild Card, two National League pennants and the 2006 World Series.

Krivsky was perhaps naïve enough to believe Castellini when he hired Jocketty as a special advisor to advise and assist Castellini in baseball operations that his job wasn't on the line. In fact, it was. Everyone else saw it, but Krivsky refused to read the writing on the wall, listening only to what was said.

"Bob had talked to me about next year, after the season, kind of easing my way into working again," Jocketty said. "Possibly being president of baseball operations at the end of the year. That was something we'd consider. He asked me last night if I was willing to do it now."

Instead of looking over his shoulder and mortgaging the future for the 2008 season and his job, Krivsky went on building an organization the only way he knew how.

"You think about the present and you can have a mandate to win this year, but I never lose sight of the long term," Krivsky said. "I didn't do things here to save my job short term. I wasn't going to do that. In my mind, I was going to be here a long time. … I wasn't going to do anything to hurt the organization long term to save my rear for one year."

Krivsky took over a team that hadn't had a winning season since 2001, but didn't have a winning record in either of his first two seasons. Although Castellini said when Krivsky was hired in 2006 that he wanted to use the Minnesota Twins, an organization Krivsky had deep ties with, as a model. In Minnesota, Terry Ryan was able to build the Twins and with the patience of six losing seasons to start his tenure.

Castellini may have liked the end result of the Twins model, but in the end, he couldn't deal with the sacrifice in the here and now required to put in the infrastructure Ryan built in Minnesota.

"I don't think anybody in the organization is happy with the results on a won-loss basis," Castellini said. "We've had two losing seasons under our new ownership and we started out this season poorly on a win-loss basis. That's the primary reason we made the change."

So, after an 8-12 start -- Castellini said he’d made the decision before Tuesday’s victory over the Dodgers -- the owner's patience ran short and Krivsky was outed.
I

n his tenure, Krivsky nearly turned over the roster completely. The only starting position players from before Krivsky's tenure are Ken Griffey Jr., Adam Dunn and Edwin Encarnacion. Joey Votto was in the minor league system before Krivsky's hiring, but was brought through under Krivsky's watch. Aaron Harang, Matt Belisle and Johnny Cueto are the only pitchers in the rotation not acquired by Krivsky, and the outgoing general manager signed Harang to a long-term deal under market value. Cueto, like Votto, was acquired by the Dan O'Brien regime, but came throughout he system under Krivsky. The bullpen's only non-Krivsky acquisition is David Weathers.

Krivsky acquired Brandon Phillips, last season's team MVP, for Jeff Stevens. He traded Bobby Basham for David Ross. He acquired Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena. He acquired Kyle Lohse for Zach Ward and later Matt Maloney for Lohse. He also traded Russ Haltiwanger for Jeff Keppinger. He selected Josh Hamilton and Jared Burton in the Rule 5 draft and turned Hamilton around for Edinson Volquez.

His most controversial move came in July of 2006, when the Reds sent Felipe Lopez, Austin Kearns and Ryan Wagner to the Washington Nationals for Gary Majewski, Bill Bray, Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris and Daryl Thompson. While roundly viewed as a fleecing by former Reds GM and current National GM Jim Bowden, time has made it a wash, and could even go in the Reds' favor as Bray has been impressive when injury-free and Thompson has currently tearing up the Southern League.

Perhaps the biggest criticisms of Krivsky recently have come from his contract extensions. He signed Mike Stanton to a two-year $5.5 million deal before the 2006 season. He gave Ryan Freel a two-year $7 million extension last season and Juan Castro a two-year, $2 million contract. He also signed Arroyo to a two-year extension for $25 million.

Any perceived loss can be noted by the savings of the four-year, $36.5 million extension to Harang, which is very low compared to other No. 1 starters in a similar position as Harang.

Krivsky was also often criticized for the extension of left-hander Rheal Cormier, but the Reds received $2.08 million in cash to pay Cormier from the A's in the trade that sent Chris Denorfia to Oakland and netted Cincinnati reliever Marcus McBeth.

"I challenge anybody, you put the acquisitions in one column and what we gave up in the other and you tell me it's not a freakin' slam dunk the job that was done here," Krivsky said. "It's not just Wayne Krivsky, it's on my ledger. You want to talk contracts? I'll talk contracts with you. Mike Stanton? And I love Mike Stanton, but it didn't work out. That one's on me. Rheal Cormier, that one got covered, we got a whole bunch of money (from the A's in the Chris Denorfia deal) that covered that. I'm not the type of person that's going to brag we got seven figures on that. I'll walk out of here feeling proud that I stayed true to myself and what I'm all about."

When asked about immediate moves to make the Reds better, Jocketty said he didn't know of anything right away, but he left the spring feeling good about the team's chances to compete, and still does, even with the current makeup.

"I felt when we started the season we had a club that could be a contending club and this division is winnable," Jocketty said.

Usually when the executives like the club that is put on the field and not the way that club is playing, the general manager is praised and the field manager is fired. But Dusty Baker is just 21 games into his Reds tenure and was the high-profile manager Castellini craved, so he's too new to get the blame. Instead, the ax fell on Krivsky.

"At the end of the day, I wish a larger perspective was taken on the whole body of work that's been done here rather than the 9-12 record or whatever led to the thinking of being let go today," Krivsky said.

But with Bob Castellini's promises to win and win now, the only perspective that matters is his and its judged solely on the wins and losses as of today, not the entire health of the organization. Castellini, Jocketty and Baker may talk about the importance of continuity, but because of that impatience, not only is Wayne Krivsky out of a job, but the Cincinnati Reds’ organization is looking at yet another change in direction, including interim GMs, they are now on their sixth since Great American Ball Park opened in 2003.

"I've got to respect the decision, but I disagree with it strongly," Krivsky said. "I think I'm the right guy for this. I have a lot of confidence in my ability and the staff I've put in here. I'm proud of what I've done here."

http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 12:23 AM
Huge props and thanks to Wayne Krivsky for not folding to the pressure and dealing away the future for a quick fix. Thank for sticking to your guns and not mortgaging the future by trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard or Joe Blanton. By not doing that, the future now looks very, very bright in Cincy. It's a shame he won't be here to enjoy that.

WMR
04-24-2008, 12:28 AM
Huge props and thanks to Wayne Krivsky for not folding to the pressure and dealing away the future for a quick fix. Thank for sticking to your guns and not mortgaging the future by trading Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto for Erik Bedard or Joe Blanton. By not doing that, the future now looks very, very bright in Cincy. It's a shame he won't be here to enjoy that.

I wonder if trading one of our most valued chips would have saved his job?

Pretty honorable of the guy to do what he thought would be best for the Reds in the long-term even at the expense of his own job security.

TRF
04-24-2008, 12:31 AM
Kinsler, Pedroia, Cano, Hill, Utley, just off the top of my head.

I've seen Kinsler a lot. He's not in BP's class at all. Neither is Cano. BP is as good as Utley.