PDA

View Full Version : Sweep Makes Reds Record 3-10 Since Week 1



WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 04:23 PM
This is simply unbelievable. And the dreaded West coast looms. We could be in for a bad stretch that will doom the season.

Cueto came down to earth. Sad to see, but maybe the pressure's getting to the kid?

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 04:26 PM
Cueto allowed five runs in seven innings. If that's his version of a clunker then I'll take it. All pitchers have bad games, especially 22-year olds.

The Reds are 0-5 against the Astros and Pirates. Ouch.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 04:28 PM
Cueto allowed five runs in seven innings. If that's his version of a clunker then I'll take it. All pitchers have bad games, especially 22-year olds.

The Reds are 0-5 against the Astros and Pirates. Ouch.

And probably in last place.

Falls City Beer
04-24-2008, 04:34 PM
I'm sure this thread will get closed, but before it does, I'll just say: 22 year old pitchers get hit by MLB hitters. They just do. They always do. I suspect Cueto's numbers will be nothing short of awful by the end of the season. The only thing he has working for him right now is his efficiency (that is, control), so on occasion his line drives will end up in gloves and he'll have a quick and "easy-looking" couple of innings. His velocity is down--well down--from the 96 we saw in his first start. I'm guessing that he's been advised to key it down a notch or he's realizing that his body won't let him throw that kind of gas with regularity over 100 pitches and he's scaling his stuff back by himself. Whatever the case, he will have a VERY tough year, something I warned against in spring training when most everyone seemed pretty sure that 3-4 spots in the rotation were certain locks.

Don't kid yourself; this kid isn't in for some bumps and bruises--he's in for some full-scale shellackings.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 04:37 PM
You wanna place another bet on his numbers being awful at the end of the year? I find it truly amazing how Reds fans turn on players. If Cueto were a Cardinal or a member of another rival organization, he'd be the best young pitcher in the game.

BTW he hit 94-95 in his last start when I was there. I wouldn't say his velocity is way down because it's not true.

Joseph
04-24-2008, 04:39 PM
Cueto hit 94 several times today, that I saw.

WVRedsFan
04-24-2008, 04:41 PM
Truth of the matter is that the offense is the problem. The team is averaging 4.13 runs per game while giving up 4.81. Take out the only 3 times the offense scored some runs (all wins) and they're averaging 3.3 runs per game (20 games). They've scored 3 runs or less in 12 games. And we've only played 23 games. That's almot half. You do not win this way. you cannot win this way. Even the best pitching staffs give up over 4 per game on average.

If Jocketty has any magic, he'd better get that wand out.

Unassisted
04-24-2008, 04:44 PM
I subscribe to Reds news alerts from Cincinnati.com. The keeper of the alerts there felt the need to send one out a few minutes ago titled "Breaking News: Reds lose for 10th time in 13 games." I guess the wagons must be circling in Reds country.

Reds Fanatic
04-24-2008, 04:44 PM
This team has scored over 4 runs in only 6 of 23 games. In those 6 games they are 5-1. In the 17 games they have scored 4 or less they are 4-13.

bucksfan2
04-24-2008, 04:48 PM
I'm sure this thread will get closed, but before it does, I'll just say: 22 year old pitchers get hit by MLB hitters. They just do. They always do. I suspect Cueto's numbers will be nothing short of awful by the end of the season. The only thing he has working for him right now is his efficiency (that is, control), so on occasion his line drives will end up in gloves and he'll have a quick and "easy-looking" couple of innings. His velocity is down--well down--from the 96 we saw in his first start. I'm guessing that he's been advised to key it down a notch or he's realizing that his body won't let him throw that kind of gas with regularity over 100 pitches and he's scaling his stuff back by himself. Whatever the case, he will have a VERY tough year, something I warned against in spring training when most everyone seemed pretty sure that 3-4 spots in the rotation were certain locks.

Don't kid yourself; this kid isn't in for some bumps and bruises--he's in for some full-scale shellackings.

What do you do then FCB? Leave Cueto in the minors until he is absolutly ready to succeed every night at the age of 30?

Every pitcher in baseball is going to have their off nights. The way Brantley described it on the radio was that Cueto didn't have his stuff today. I will take 5 runs over 7 innings every day of the week when a pitcher like Cueto isn't on his game. Cueto for Jennings anyone?

Puffy
04-24-2008, 04:49 PM
You wanna place another bet on his numbers being awful at the end of the year? I find it truly amazing how Reds fans turn on players. If Cueto were a Cardinal or a member of another rival organization, he'd be the best young pitcher in the game.

BTW he hit 94-95 in his last start when I was there. I wouldn't say his velocity is way down because it's not true.

Dan Haren had an era of 5.08 when he was 23 years old. Randy Johnson was 4.82 at 25 years old and in his first year. Maddux was 6-14, 5.21 as a 21 year old. Glavine was 5.54 as a 21 year old. Smoltz was 5.48 as a 21 year old.

How come whenever a person questions a young Red you fly off the handle? Young pitchers struggle, its called growing - but I guess FCB isn't allowed to say such a blasphemist thing

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 04:54 PM
Dan Haren had an era of 5.08 when he was 23 years old. Randy Johnson was 4.82 at 25 years old and in his first year. Maddux was 6-14, 5.21 as a 21 year old. Glavine was 5.54 as a 21 year old. Smoltz was 5.48 as a 21 year old.

How come whenever a person questions a young Red you fly off the handle? Young pitchers struggle, its called growing - but I guess FCB isn't allowed to say such a blasphemist thing

First of all, I didn't fly off the handle. I was just poking fun at FCB. My problem with FCB's post was him saying Cueto's velocity is way down. No need to spread false information. Second of all, I agree that young pitchers typically struggle in their first year. I've said before that I think Cueto will have his share of bad outings this year but I think the good will outweigh the bad. No need to throw him under the bus after a bad start.

Kc61
04-24-2008, 05:00 PM
Truth of the matter is that the offense is the problem. The team is averaging 4.13 runs per game while giving up 4.81. Take out the only 3 times the offense scored some runs (all wins) and they're averaging 3.3 runs per game (20 games). They've scored 3 runs or less in 12 games. And we've only played 23 games. That's almot half. You do not win this way. you cannot win this way. Even the best pitching staffs give up over 4 per game on average.

If Jocketty has any magic, he'd better get that wand out.

Did you see Mr. Lance Berkman today? That's the kind of hitter the Reds lack and need. Guys like Dunn and, at this stage, Griffey have their talents, but if you want to compete on a high level you need a couple of top hitters -- either along with them or replacing them.

Only watched a bit, but Cueto looked good in his later innings of work. There remain pitching problems but the Reds are far along trying to fix them. The offense needs a different core in the middle of the lineup.

Aronchis
04-24-2008, 05:03 PM
Cueto needs to work on his changeup. He isn't going to be able to throw heat consistantly like Volquez or Bailey. His plane is far less than Bailey or Volquez as well which means more mistakes get slammed.

I am not sold on Cueto surviving in the rotation yet, though pinpoint control with a above average changeup may convert me.

Today the changeup wasn't good and the results showed.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 05:07 PM
Cueto's changeup has looked great to me.

He didn't have his best stuff today. He seemed to throw a huge amount of fastballs and stayed away from his secondary stuff. Overall, he's pitched very, very good.

Tony Cloninger
04-24-2008, 05:12 PM
Exactly.....his off speed stuff wa snot used as much...and that hurt him.

Trouble with FCB...WHO I LIKE...is that we do not hear from him on Cueto until he has a bad/avg game. That can be grating.

RedlegJake
04-24-2008, 05:16 PM
Cueto is a kid. FCB is right when he says he's going to take some beatings. It just happens with kids that young. He's learning to pace himself a bit, learning that ML hitters can hit anything you throw sometimes unlike minor league hitters, that ML hitters adjust and learn from you every time you pitch - even when you're pitching against someone else, hundreds of other little lessons that a lot of other pitchers get several more minor league seasons to learn. He's very good and I expect more games like the Arizona game before the season is over, but also many more games like today's. And let's face it, 5 runs in 7 innings isn't horrible. Much of the time that is good enough to keep your team in the game. An era between 4.5 and 5 is a reasonable goal for Cueto this season. Just stay healthy and learn, kid.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 05:19 PM
I think FCB's point is solid. Guys like Dwight Gooden that can dominate at age 19-20 come around once per century.

It's hard to pitch in the big leagues. Young pitchers will have their ups and downs, but I think Ceuto has a bright future. This is a good year to just leave him in the rotation to learn.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 05:24 PM
Baker doesn't seem to be comfortable with "rushing" Bruce and Bailey, perhaps they should not "rush" Cueto and Volquez and just send them back down to Louisville allowing them to develop and mature.

Baker could put Fogg and Affelt back in the starting role. I wonder if Baker would be willing to do that?

Baker says that it isn't about need, that is about the proper handling of valuable players such as though mentioned above.

Cueto is young like Bailey and Bruce isn't he?


Dusty Baker is as eager as most Reds fans to see outfielder Jay Bruce and pitcher Homer Bailey in a Reds uniform, but he says the club has to make sure it does the right thing by the two highly-regarded prospects while considering the club’s long-term needs.

“You’re not going to bring them up and don’t play them,” Baker said Thursday. “You want them to tear it up versus coming here prematurely and then have to go back. Even if we need them, you’ve got to do what’s right, number one, for the kids because when they get here, they’re not going back.”

Has it reached the point during the Reds’ slow start where they really do need Bruce and Bailey?

“Need is not the issue right now,” Baker said. “The issue is we’ve got guys here that have done the job and are about to do the job. I mean, are you going to tell me Adam Dunn is not going to hit 40 home runs? Are you going to tell me Griff’s not going to hit 30 home runs?
“I’m dying for them to get here. I really am. I’m excited about it. But sometimes you have to sit on your hands and let them play.”

Asked if he believed that Bruce and Bailey were ready to succeed in the big leagues, Baker said he wasn’t sure.

Oh wait, on the last line he admits that he doesn't know by saying that he isn't sure. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Falls City Beer
04-24-2008, 05:25 PM
Exactly.....his off speed stuff wa snot used as much...and that hurt him.

Trouble with FCB...WHO I LIKE...is that we do not hear from him on Cueto until he has a bad/avg game. That can be grating.

Come on. A simple check of the archives reveals that I was one of the few who said be careful about leaning on two rookies in a rotation. I don't think I have to justify myself further but anyway: I also said I think Cueto is the best arm the Reds have developed in my lifetime.

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 05:28 PM
BTW FCB, if I come off as a jackass in my post then I'm sorry because I didn't mean for it to sound that way.

BRM
04-24-2008, 05:29 PM
BTW FCB, if I come off as a jackass in my post then I'm sorry because I didn't mean for it to sound that way.

We're used to that from you. ;)

OnBaseMachine
04-24-2008, 05:30 PM
We're used to that from you. ;)

Go sulk over the resignation of Tom Crean. ;)

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 05:31 PM
Young pitchers will have their ups and downs, but I think Ceuto has a bright future. This is a good year to just leave him in the rotation to learn.

All Reds pitchers have their ups and downs. But if Baker is about protecting the "young kids" then a young man like Cueto should have been in Louisville with Bailey and Bruce. Baker wants Patterson and Hairston here, the older guys. Some Reds fans called it before the season started, posters that were more familiar with Dusty's history in Chicago and San Francisco than the rest of us. Bray is not here either.

Tony Cloninger
04-24-2008, 05:35 PM
You are standing by your convictions.......i have no problem with that.

We will see how it looks as the season goes.

I have no problem understanding he will take his lumps also.

KronoRed
04-24-2008, 06:33 PM
Well whatever happens from now on all the good will be because of the new GM, all the bad because of the old.
;)

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 06:51 PM
Baker doesn't seem to be comfortable with "rushing" Bruce and Bailey, perhaps they should not "rush" Cueto and Volquez and just send them back down to Louisville allowing them to develop and mature.

Baker could put Fogg and Affelt back in the starting role. I wonder if Baker would be willing to do that?

Baker says that it isn't about need, that is about the proper handling of valuable players such as though mentioned above.

Cueto is young like Bailey and Bruce isn't he?

Oh wait, on the last line he admits that he doesn't know by saying that he isn't sure. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Bailey was left in AAA because he was behind Ceuto and Volquez. He simply wasn't ready. He was given a development plan, and apparently has taken the Reds' advice to heart. That's great. Now he needs to finish his development plan.

I imagine Bruce was given a plan of things to work on as well. Obviously, this is just speculation.

Didn't another article say that Dusty has not seen Bruce and Homer since spring training? If that is the case, it's fair for Dusty to say he's not sure if they are ready or not.

REDREAD
04-24-2008, 06:56 PM
All Reds pitchers have their ups and downs. But if Baker is about protecting the "young kids" then a young man like Cueto should have been in Louisville with Bailey and Bruce.


Ok, I thought you were being sarcastic in your other post. But I guess you are serious ?? You want to send Ceuto down to AAA?



Baker wants Patterson and Hairston here, the older guys. Some Reds fans called it before the season started, posters that were more familiar with Dusty's history in Chicago and San Francisco than the rest of us. Bray is not here either.

Baker has not shown himself to be prejudiced to playing older players here over more deserving young guys. Fogg only got 3 starts before he was sent to the bullpen. Stanton was sent packing. Castro was sent packing. Dusty said in spring training that he didn't want veteran dead weight.

Right now, Patterson and Hairston are playing CF because Dusty has no other viable options. It's not his call whether Bruce is in AAA or not. He has his input, but is not the final decision maker. It seems as if Baker was lobbying for Bruce to be on the big league club until Bruce hurt his leg in spring training..

I just don't see any evidence that Baker is deliberately holding back young players that deserve playing time.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 07:05 PM
Didn't another article say that Dusty has not seen Bruce and Homer since spring training? If that is the case, it's fair for Dusty to say he's not sure if they are ready or not.

He is indicating that he doesn't know by saying that he is not sure, ie unaware, not fully informed. Yet he asserts a contrary opinion on Bruce coming up using youth to support his espousing.

I am not being sarcastic, I am just using his points of view to indicate a double speak or mixed messages on his part with the "young kids" item that he is using to rationalize Bruce staying down there while he experiments with Patterson and Hairston, which is what I believe is his true agenda, might be a better word than objective.

Of course I could be dead wrong.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 07:17 PM
Ok, I thought you were being sarcastic in your other post. But I guess you are serious ?? You want to send Ceuto down to AAA?

Not unless it becomes necessary for his growth and development. I mean it could happen that he would need to be sent down if things were to turn against him vs. the present.

I would like for Dusty to be consistent on his rationalizations for keeping "young kids" down at AAA like Jay Bruce. Cueto falls under the classification of "young kid" but Dusty shows a double standard which is no standard at all.

The team already committed 3 million to Patterson to play CF this year.

I thought that they had some kind of stipulation in the contract of Hairston that he had to be on the major league team or be released. Seems to me that Dusty who has input in his roster brought those two here, I saw somewhere when they hired Dusty that it was in his contract to have more input on the roster.

Correct me if I wrong.

So it was established or set up to push the young players down to AAA, reinforcing a bias rumor against Baker and younger players. Bruce had a twinge in a muscle, Baker comments about the history of leg problems with Bruce, which Bruce refutes, yet Patterson shows up cutting off prep and playing time for Bruce, he slumps, and is sent to the minors.

I think that is what we saw them do literally with Bruce and I don't think we had to be a fly on the wall to get that right. I think that there is circumstantial evidence.

No I am not being sarcastic......I am tired though, maybe that is coming through.

Matt700wlw
04-24-2008, 07:25 PM
A lot of young pitchers would have crumbled on a day like today...Matt Belisle would have crumbled on a day like today and he's got a few years under his belt. Cueto was getting hit pretty good, and hard at times, he gave up more runs than we're used to, and had to deal with not being on top of his game....Cueto fought through it, got through 7 innings, and kept his team in the game.

When Aaron Harang does it, it's called being a number one, and not letting a game get out of hand....since Johnny Cueto did it, it's called coming back to earth or getting shelled.

Odd how that works.

Spring~Fields
04-24-2008, 07:38 PM
A lot of young pitchers would have crumbled on a day like today...Matt Belisle would have crumbled on a day like today and he's got a few years under his belt. Cueto was getting hit pretty good, and hard at times, he gave up more runs than we're used to, and had to deal with not being on top of his game....Cueto fought through it, got through 7 innings, and kept his team in the game.

When Aaron Harang does it, it's called being a number one, and not letting a game get out of hand....since Johnny Cueto did it, it's called coming back to earth or getting shelled.

Odd how that works.

Yes double speak or double standards.

I believe what other posters have said, that they have asked him to tone it back a bit from what we saw the first start, that might effect him more.

I read an article on Bailey after he went to AAA, where he had gotten tired of everyone telling him how to this or that, or what to do, and he said in the article "screw that", that he was just going to pitch how he knew how and he believed that is why he was pitching better.

It is possible that certain instruction or changes bothers a Cueto, Bailey or Volquez, yet they are trying to be compliant with the "bosses" and it could effect a change from what we saw at the start.

Falls City Beer
04-24-2008, 07:38 PM
Well whatever happens from now on all the good will be because of the new GM, all the bad because of the old.
;)

I don't know--every article but one that's been posted from outside publications since the change of control has absolutely lambasted Castellini for the move. I think the mood of the board is about 4 to 1 against the move. So I don't exactly see at all what you're seeing I guess.

Chip R
04-24-2008, 07:47 PM
I don't know--every article but one that's been posted from outside publications since the change of control has absolutely lambasted Castellini for the move. I think the mood of the board is about 4 to 1 against the move. So I don't exactly see at all what you're seeing I guess.


People have short memories. Sportswriters will say one thing one day and do a 180 in a month.

Ltlabner
04-24-2008, 10:10 PM
I don't know--every article but one that's been posted from outside publications since the change of control has absolutely lambasted Castellini for the move. I think the mood of the board is about 4 to 1 against the move. So I don't exactly see at all what you're seeing I guess.

I wouldn't say I'm against the move. The chances of the Jock building a successfull team are much greater than Wayne. While I don't think The Jock is perfect, he's definatley got a good track record of success and actually doing the job. That is definatley exciting. I think the Reds of September 2008 will barely resemble the Reds of April 2008. And that's a good thing for the most part.

I'm just not in favor of the method BCast chose to do it. Yesterday I was thinking that it was good that he made up his mind and acted. Today, after some time to reflect, it strikes me as horrbably bungled to (1) not axe Wayne over the offseason (2) use an convient excuse to make the change (3) pretend that the move is borne of "wanting to win NOW" instead of "I just wanted my guy as GM".

Basically a better date came along and BCast took him to the dance and ditched his original date at the dinner table.

KronoRed
04-24-2008, 11:16 PM
I think the mood of the board is about 4 to 1 against the move. So I don't exactly see at all what you're seeing I guess.

I think it's 50/50 and like the Baker hiring in 3 months almost everyone here will love the move and talk about how Wayne was holding us back :D

paintmered
04-24-2008, 11:23 PM
I'm sure this thread will get closed, but before it does, I'll just say: 22 year old pitchers get hit by MLB hitters. They just do. They always do. I suspect Cueto's numbers will be nothing short of awful by the end of the season. The only thing he has working for him right now is his efficiency (that is, control), so on occasion his line drives will end up in gloves and he'll have a quick and "easy-looking" couple of innings. His velocity is down--well down--from the 96 we saw in his first start. I'm guessing that he's been advised to key it down a notch or he's realizing that his body won't let him throw that kind of gas with regularity over 100 pitches and he's scaling his stuff back by himself. Whatever the case, he will have a VERY tough year, something I warned against in spring training when most everyone seemed pretty sure that 3-4 spots in the rotation were certain locks.

Don't kid yourself; this kid isn't in for some bumps and bruises--he's in for some full-scale shellackings.

Concur. The historical success rate for 21-year-old pitchers is anything but good. I don't think he's in for a horrid year, but he will get some full-scale shellackings in addition to the bumps and bruises.

Despite this, there is absolutely no reason to sour on him. He's an ace-in-diapers and he deserves our patience.

redsrule2500
04-25-2008, 03:19 AM
How did this happen? How are we this bad? It seems like all the pieces are at least somewhat there, but we still keep on losing!

I don't know why I'm making a thread with mostly questions, but I can't think of anything else.... :confused:What's wrong

Mario-Rijo
04-25-2008, 03:46 AM
How did this happen? How are we this bad? It seems like all the pieces are at least somewhat there, but we still keep on losing!

I don't know why I'm making a thread with mostly questions, but I can't think of anything else.... :confused:What's wrong

What's wrong? That's actually fairly easy, how about by the #'s?!

2/5 of the starting rotation can't hit the broad side of a barn right now.
2/3 of the starting OF can't run down flyballs 20 ft out of their "zone".
1/3 of the starting OF doesn't even exist yet.
1/4 of our starting IF lacks range (although I don't know it's actually hurt us much if at all)
1/4 of our starting IF can't throw the ball to 1st base on a regular basis
1/3 of our catchers....well that says it all right there 3
1/2 of our non-platoon 1st base platoon doesn't fit his role
7/8 of the starting lineup on a given day can't hit w/risp

1 Manager who will continue to put out a lineup that places more emphasis on your name than your current ability and how it relates to the other players he has to work with.

1 owner who's now made 2 bad major executive decisions in a row replacing a capable GM and Mgr with "names".

redsrule2500
04-25-2008, 03:53 AM
2/5 of the starting rotation can't hit the broad side of a barn right now.
2/3 of the starting OF can't run down flyballs 20 ft out of their "zone".
1/3 of the starting OF doesn't even exist yet.
1/4 of our starting IF lacks range (although I don't know it's actually hurt us much if at all)
1/4 of our starting IF can't throw the ball to 1st base on a regular basis
1/3 of our catchers....well that says it all right there 3
1/2 of our non-platoon 1st base platoon doesn't fit his role
7/8 of the starting lineup on a given day can't hit w/risp

1 Manager who will continue to put out a lineup that places more emphasis on your name than your current ability and how it relates to the other players he has to work with.

1 owner who's now made 2 bad major executive decisions in a row replacing a capable GM and Mgr with "names".

Yeah, I agree with the bold items listed. It's sad because our offense should come around....but when?!