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Mainspark
04-26-2008, 08:52 AM
Notebook: Mariners manager nearing wit's end
McLaren unhappy with inconsistent play out of gate
By GARY WASHBURN
P-I REPORTER

Friday was not the first time Mariners manager John McLaren acknowledged the heightened expectations of his club. It is, however, the first time that he admitted his patience is beginning to dissipate.

After dropping the opener of this weekend's important series with the A's on Friday, the Mariners are 11-13, four games behind Oakland and Anaheim in the American League West. Seattle is 12th in the AL in batting average, 12th in on-base percentage and eighth in home runs. Meanwhile, the club passed on an opportunity to boost its lineup with free agent Frank Thomas, who batted fourth for the A's on Friday.

McLaren said Friday that he will soon address his team about the urgency of the season, as a means of erasing the inconsistency. Of course, the Mariners have been bothered by injuries while a handful of players -- Kenji Johjima, Richie Sexson, Jose Vidro and Brad Wilkerson -- have struggled at the plate.

"We need to start playing consistent baseball," McLaren said. "I am going to get them all together and tighten some things up. I think everybody knows the bar has been set higher for everybody, and we had some challenges with J.J. (Putz) out and we handled that, and now we need to start playing a good all-around game. We can't play it in segments."

One position of concern is designated hitter, where the Mariners are 10th in the AL with a .209 average and 12th in slugging percentage. There had been speculation that the club would consider bringing in a big bat to replace Vidro, who did deliver a two-run double in Thursday's 8-7 loss to the Baltimore Orioles.

One eventual candidate could be Ken Griffey Jr., who is batting .256 with four homers and 15 RBIs for the Reds, who may begin a roster overhaul with the hiring of former St. Louis Cardinals general manager Walt Jocketty to replace the fired Wayne Krvisky. Cincinnati appears stuck in the middle of rebuilding with new manager Dusty Baker and attempting to compete in the wide-open National League Central.

Griffey is in the final year of that seven-year deal he negotiated with the Reds after his trade demand from Seattle. He is scheduled to earn $12.5 million this season and has a $16.5 million option for 2009 that can be bought out at $4 million.

The Mariners just invested $24 million over three seasons for Johjima, who has been slumping this season. The question is whether the Mariners want to pay a potentially hefty price for Griffey to return or if they will wait until later in the season.

McLaren said he wants his players currently in the clubhouse to produce and begin their run toward the AL West title.

"We're at the point in the season now where we've got our feet on the ground, and now we need to start running," McLaren said. "I've been happy with the effort, and the execution I have not been happy with. I just think a little better concentration, a little better participation and we'll be a lot better off. That's the message I'd like to send. I am ready for us to put everything behind us and just take off and play winning baseball."

jojo
04-26-2008, 08:56 AM
Please make it stop.

buckeyenut
04-26-2008, 09:11 AM
Actually might make a ton of sense to send Jr to SEA for Clement. We bring up Bruce to replace Jr and get the catcher we need.

jojo
04-26-2008, 09:16 AM
Actually might make a ton of sense to send Jr to SEA for Clement. We bring up Bruce to replace Jr and get the catcher we need.

It makes a lot of sense to send Fogg to Houstan for Oswald too.... :D

BTW, Clement isn't ready to catch in the major leagues (literally he couldn't even be passable). He's an offensive answer (though he's another lefty) but not an answer for catcher.

Sea Ray
04-26-2008, 09:19 AM
My bet is they'll likely want us to take Johjima instead. If we have to eat most of Jr's contract then yes, I insist on Clement. I wonder if Jr will accept a trade to somewhere that plans to use him as a DH. Actually Jr could play RF for Seattle too. Even he is better all around over Wilkerson.

jojo
04-26-2008, 09:25 AM
My bet is they'll likely want us to take Johjima instead. If we have to eat most of Jr's contract then yes, I insist on Clement. I wonder if Jr will accept a trade to somewhere that plans to use him as a DH. Actually Jr could play RF for Seattle too. Even he is better all around over Wilkerson.

They like Johjima. They like Clement.

They don't want Jr. Jr doesn't want them. It's a match made in....well, no where.

SteelSD
04-26-2008, 09:28 AM
What? Clement or Johjima (who the M's just extended) for Ken Griffey Junior? Why in the world would Seattle even consider something like that?

puca
04-26-2008, 09:34 AM
They wouldn't.

This is nothing but a fantasy that seemingly HAS to be tossed out every year.

jojo
04-26-2008, 09:42 AM
Really the thread title should be: "local Seattle writer struggling to some up with copy contemplates Jr'.

lollipopcurve
04-26-2008, 09:44 AM
If Griffey starts to hit a little and the Mariners stay close but need some more pop at DH, this could happen. But I wouldn't expect much in return. Because Griffey has little trade value, I'd expect Jocketty to deal Dunn before Jr.

jojo
04-26-2008, 09:52 AM
If Griffey starts to hit a little and the Mariners stay close but need some more pop at DH, this could happen. But I wouldn't expect much in return. Because Griffey has little trade value, I'd expect Jocketty to deal Dunn before Jr.

I could see Dunn to Seattle before Jr though I don't know which teams Dunn put on his list.

Seattle is just the kind of FO that would be willing to throw moola long term at Dunn while letting him remain in left and they'd probably trip over their tongues to do so because he's a lefty.

Ichiro and Dunn together would be priceless too.... some of the quotes that would come out of Seattle would be extraordinary.

Dunn+long term deal to Seattle with Wlad coming to the Reds in a deadline deal. Maybe that has something greater than a negative chance of happening.

macro
04-26-2008, 09:58 AM
Please make it stop.

The "Griffey To Seattle" rumors surfaced at least three times last year:

May (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58084&highlight=junior+griffey)
June (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59678&highlight=junior+griffey)
July (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60958&highlight=junior+griffey)

jojo
04-26-2008, 10:01 AM
The "Griffey To Seattle" rumors surfaced at least three times last year:

May (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58084&highlight=junior+griffey)
June (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59678&highlight=junior+griffey)
July (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60958&highlight=junior+griffey)

I think there is a drinking game called "Jr to Seattle Rumor". I refer all those who are tempted to entertain "Jr to Seattle" to watch how Larry Boy deals with the Rumor Weed.....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9b/Veggietales_dvd_rumor.jpg

Jpup
04-26-2008, 02:26 PM
I wish the Reds would send him packing. The time has passed, but it's better late than never. Jay Bruce needs to be in right field ASAP.

LoganBuck
04-26-2008, 02:50 PM
Trade him straight up for Wladimir Balentien. Call Bruce up. Let the winning commence.

redsfan4445
04-26-2008, 02:54 PM
lets see the Reds are in last place with Jr and Seattle wants him to get them over the top.. hmmmmmmm

gm
04-26-2008, 03:07 PM
Even though Jr. said he wanted to finish his career with Seattle last June, I still think he'd rather wind up with a team that trains near Orlando...that includes the Braves, Tigers, Blue Jays, D-Rays, Phillies, Pirates, Marlins and Yankees. Sure, he could be dealt to another team to finish out this season, but come next March he's gonna want to be in Florida, not Arizona.

mth123
04-26-2008, 03:14 PM
lets see the Reds are in last place with Jr and Seattle wants him to get them over the top.. hmmmmmmm

If Jr would agree to be a DH, his .800ish OPS would be an asset for nearly any team. His play in RF leaves me concerned about the long term health of the pitching staff. A lot of pitches accumulate on those arms when so many outs are routinely allowed to drop in front of him for a hit while he plays it on a hop. A fly ball staff with Harang, Cueto and Arroyo could use the help. Two step range just doesn't cut it. Even if the pitchers survive, the OPS would need to be a lot higher to balance out the lack of defense IMO.

Seattle actually is the perfect spot for him if he'd go there and DH. They need him and he needs to be in the role that they have to fill. Going home to a penant race in his place of glory is icing on the cake.

macro
04-26-2008, 05:08 PM
I hope he finishes his career in Cincinnati. It's not often that a 600-home-run Hall of Fame player plays for your favorite team, and we should enjoy every game of it while it lasts. The number of wins and losses the Reds have while not making the playoffs in 2008 will not be remembered ten, twenty, or thirty years from now. The final years of Ken Griffey Jr.'s career will be. Let it be here.

If letting him go would likely lead to a World Series appearance or championship, then go for it. Otherwise, I'll take fifth place with him on the team over third place with him playing elsewhere.

If he plays anywhere else, I hope it's back to Seattle.

TheBurn
04-26-2008, 05:49 PM
I hope he finishes his career in Cincinnati. It's not often that a 600-home-run Hall of Fame player plays for your favorite team, and we should enjoy every game of it while it lasts. The number of wins and losses the Reds have while not making the playoffs in 2008 will not be remembered ten, twenty, or thirty years from now. The final years of Ken Griffey Jr.'s career will be. Let it be here...:clap:

Gainesville Red
04-26-2008, 08:58 PM
The only time I see Jr. putting on the Mariners uniform is for the one-day contract.

toledodan
04-26-2008, 10:12 PM
I hope he finishes his career in Cincinnati. It's not often that a 600-home-run Hall of Fame player plays for your favorite team, and we should enjoy every game of it while it lasts. The number of wins and losses the Reds have while not making the playoffs in 2008 will not be remembered ten, twenty, or thirty years from now. The final years of Ken Griffey Jr.'s career will be. Let it be here.

If letting him go would likely lead to a World Series appearance or championship, then go for it. Otherwise, I'll take fifth place with him on the team over third place with him playing elsewhere.

If he plays anywhere else, I hope it's back to Seattle.


GREAT POST!:beerme::beerme::beerme:

Chip R
04-26-2008, 10:49 PM
Seven year contract? :confused:

GAC
04-27-2008, 07:02 AM
People..... you forget that Jr has a no trade clause in his contract. Not that easy to just trade him. He's in the driver's seat. As MCroskey (Airplane) said "He's in charge, he's the boss, head man, top dog, big cheese!"

They'll give him his 4 mil buyout at season's end and that will be that.

Chip R
04-27-2008, 08:09 AM
People..... you forget that Jr has a no trade clause in his contract. Not that easy to just trade him. He's in the driver's seat. As MCroskey (Airplane) said "He's in charge, he's the boss, head man, top dog, big cheese!"

They'll give him his 4 mil buyout at season's end and that will be that.


Technically, he doesn't have a no trade clause. He has 10-5 rights which is a de facto no trade clause.

Spring~Fields
04-27-2008, 08:36 AM
People..... you forget that Jr has a no trade clause in his contract. Not that easy to just trade him. He's in the driver's seat. As MCroskey (Airplane) said "He's in charge, he's the boss, head man, top dog, big cheese!"

They'll give him his 4 mil buyout at season's end and that will be that.


I wonder if Jocketty will consider moving Griffey before the seasons end.

Naturally we have to believe that Jocketty will have a plan for moving forward, so might he consider moving Griffey sooner, than later?

Regardless 10-5 rights or contract clauses, there are ways to achieve a move. Would it be far fetched to think that Jocketty might end up shopping Griffey hard along with another player or so to receive some pieces to the puzzle back in exchange?

jojo
04-27-2008, 09:02 AM
What is the market for Jr, really?

Cooper
04-27-2008, 09:22 AM
The market is nothing in return. Just getting a team to pick up his contract would be huge. Getting anything above that would be a steal. Who pays 12 million for a 39 year, .800 OPS rightfielder who has a lack of range?

If they get a team to pick up all his contract- Jocketty would be doing great work. Anything more than that would be a steal.

RedlegJake
04-27-2008, 09:41 AM
The market is nothing in return. Just getting a team to pick up his contract would be huge. Getting anything above that would be a steal. Who pays 12 million for a 39 year, .800 OPS rightfielder who has a lack of range?

If they get a team to pick up all his contract- Jocketty would be doing great work. Anything more than that would be a steal.

Junior's best shot at getting traded is at the deadline where a contender in the AL might want a half year rental for a strong DH. It would likely cost the Reds the 4 million for his new team to buy out his option. In that scenario, if Junior would sign off on it, the Reds might get a a small return - a mid to low level prospect or two.

The most likely situation is that Junior plays out the year and the Reds buy out of their option. I think it a lot more likely if one of the two gets traded it will be Dunn. And that's only if Walt doesn't see Adam as part of his core going forward.

VR
04-27-2008, 10:47 AM
The market is nothing in return. Just getting a team to pick up his contract would be huge. Getting anything above that would be a steal. Who pays 12 million for a 39 year, .800 OPS rightfielder who has a lack of range?

If they get a team to pick up all his contract- Jocketty would be doing great work. Anything more than that would be a steal.

How many other teams can boast having a player with no trade value as their #3 hitter and center of their offense?

Sea Ray
04-27-2008, 11:31 AM
I hope he finishes his career in Cincinnati. It's not often that a 600-home-run Hall of Fame player plays for your favorite team, and we should enjoy every game of it while it lasts. The number of wins and losses the Reds have while not making the playoffs in 2008 will not be remembered ten, twenty, or thirty years from now. The final years of Ken Griffey Jr.'s career will be. Let it be here.

If letting him go would likely lead to a World Series appearance or championship, then go for it. Otherwise, I'll take fifth place with him on the team over third place with him playing elsewhere.

If he plays anywhere else, I hope it's back to Seattle.


I don't see it that way. 600 HRs is not remembered like 714 or 755. Did it make a big deal to SF that Barry Bonds hit number 600 with them? The only thing I remember about Bonds in SF was his quest for Aaron and when he helped them to the World Series.

If 600 is important, fine. Trade him after he hits 600.

jojo
04-27-2008, 11:50 AM
How many other teams can boast having a player with no trade value as their #3 hitter and center of their offense?

Jr as the center of their offense is a problem.

mth123
04-27-2008, 12:28 PM
How many other teams can boast having a player with no trade value as their #3 hitter and center of their offense?

I don't know if you can look at it that way. The Red Sox put Manny Ramirez on waivers a couple years ago and no one claimed him.

The value of (and risk associated with) everything is colored by the money involved. That includes say Griffey versus Josh Hmilton versus Adam Dunn versus Jay Bruce. To think anything else is a mistake.

There is a reason the Rangers wanted Hamilton instead of Dunn or Griffey and it involves contract status and age. There is also a reason the Reds were more willing to deal Hamilton than Bruce. That is also a matter of age and risk which ultimately leads to money.

Matt700wlw
04-27-2008, 12:32 PM
They can have him

macro
04-27-2008, 04:27 PM
I don't see it that way. 600 HRs is not remembered like 714 or 755. Did it make a big deal to SF that Barry Bonds hit number 600 with them? The only thing I remember about Bonds in SF was his quest for Aaron and when he helped them to the World Series.

If 600 is important, fine. Trade him after he hits 600.

While the 600th home run is noteworthy as an event, my hopes for his remaining here are not motivated by that one at-bat. Rather, my point was directed more toward the aspect of having a player of Griffey's historical stature playing for the Reds.

Robinson, Rose, Bench, Morgan, Perez, Anderson, Seaver, Griffey, Jr....these are special names in the long history of Major League Baseball, and many of us have been fortunate to have seen them wear Reds uniforms. Once they're gone, they're gone, and all we have left is the highlight reels. We should enjoy and appreciate these legends while we have them, and not be in a hurry to rush them off.

I'll admit that I probably go overboard when it comes to nostalgia, though. There are practical limits to how long players should stick around, and I wouldn't be the best person to run a Major League franchise. But when you witness a stretch of seasons like we have over the past twelve, sometimes you feel like nostalgia is all you have.

mth123
04-27-2008, 04:34 PM
While the 600th home run is noteworthy as an event, my hopes for his remaining here are not motivated by that one at-bat. Rather, my point was directed more toward the aspect of having a player of Griffey's historical stature playing for the Reds.

Robinson, Rose, Bench, Morgan, Perez, Anderson, Seaver, Griffey, Jr....these are special names in the long history of Major League Baseball, and many of us have been fortunate to have seen them wear Reds uniforms. Once they're gone, they're gone, and all we have left is the highlight reels. We should enjoy and appreciate these legends while we have them, and not be in a hurry to rush them off.

I'll admit that I probably go overboard when it comes to nostalgia, though. There are practical limits to how long players should stick around, and I wouldn't be the best person to run a Major League franchise. But when you witness a stretch of seasons like we have over the past twelve, sometimes you feel like nostalgia is all you have.


Except I just don't feel like I'm watching a Hall of Famer when watching Griffey play. The Hall of Famer is the guy who played in Seattle. We're seeing the heavy legged guy who plays in the old timer's games.

It saddens me to watch Griffey play the OF. It saddens me more when I think of the effect it may be having on the careers of Volquez, Cueto, etc.

fearofpopvol1
04-27-2008, 10:52 PM
Griffey still has value to this team.

However, he is overpaid (based on his production), should bat lower in the order and would be a better fit in LF than RF, but that's not his fault. Blame the Dusty.

klw
04-28-2008, 01:04 PM
Trade him straight up for Wladimir Balentien. Call Bruce up. Let the winning commence.

Nah hold out until Seattle sends the Reds Balentien and this Felix Hernandez guy that people seem to like.

jojo
04-28-2008, 01:19 PM
Nah hold out until Seattle sends the Reds Balentien and this Felix Hernandez guy that people seem to like.

Wlad, ehhh.... he's no sure thing.

However, imagine Felix getting to throw against a pitcher! Felix, Harang, Cueto, Volquez and Homer as your number 5..... all controlled for many years..... It's not hard to fantasize about seeing a few CYs from that crowd...

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2008, 01:33 PM
jojo, you have any concern with the way John McLaren is handling King Felix so far? He's had pitch counts of 117, 115, 110, and 115 in his last four starts. It seems like he's been around forever so it's easy to forget he just turned 22-years old a couple weeks ago. That he is allowed Felix to throw that many pitches is kind of scary. I'd hate to see him get injured because if he stays healthy he's going to put up some crazy numbers.

jojo
04-28-2008, 02:21 PM
jojo, you have any concern with the way John McLaren is handling King Felix so far? He's had pitch counts of 117, 115, 110, and 115 in his last four starts. It seems like he's been around forever so it's easy to forget he just turned 22-years old a couple weeks ago. That he is allowed Felix to throw that many pitches is kind of scary. I'd hate to see him get injured because if he stays healthy he's going to put up some crazy numbers.

I used to hate Hargrove but have come to realize that, yes, things can get even worse. Hargrove was chinese water torture. Mclaren is like substituting mercury for water.

Seattle mirrors the Reds in so many little ways. It's eerie. The FO thinks it's built a contender so McLaren is expected to win. The Ms have no real pen this season and the horses are going to get rode hard. Given the need for every one that is accountable to win now, I'm not seeing too many looking out for the long term best interests of the organization.

I'm not incredibly hung up on pitch counts unless they are really excessive but I'd sure like to see more than less caution used with the most valuable commodity the Ms have given his age. Felix had no business being trotted out for another inning last night. An absolutely dominant start was tossed into the circular bowl.

Unassisted
05-11-2008, 12:41 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2008/05/10/2008-05-10_no_santana_no_problem_as_minnesota_tops_.html


• With the Reds off to such a disappointing start, there have been recurring rumors - not at all denied by either team - of Ken Griffey Jr. getting traded back to the Seattle Mariners so he could end his career where it started. The whole idea, however, is to give Junior a chance to finally get a ring. But the last time we looked, the M's and Reds were both in last place with nearly indentical records.

OnBaseMachine
05-12-2008, 04:47 PM
Mariners send exec to check out Griffey

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Monday, May 12, 2008

NEW YORK — The Seattle Mariners covet Ken Griffey Jr., want him as much as a loving mother wants to see her children on Mother's Day.

Club President Chuck Armstrong wants the Cincinnati Reds outfielder desperately, wants him to inject excitement into the Mariners and boost attendance, because Armstrong knows Griffey is a deity in the Northwest.

That's why Duane Shaffer, a special assistant to the executive vice president, was in Shea Stadium on Sunday, May 11 — to check out Griffey.

The Mariners most likely would use Griffey as a designated hitter, something that Griffey has said in the past he wouldn't like to do. And he has said he wants to win a World Series ring before he says goodbye.

A ring isn't likely in the immediate future either in Cincinnati or Seattle, but Griffey likes to be loved, and he is more than loved in Seattle. While many fans in Cincinnati still love him, many don't.

When Griffey was asked about Shaffer's visit, he said, "Don't know the man. Never heard of him. I just live and play for the present. I've never been a what-if guy."

As a 10-and-5 player, Griffey must approve any trade, and he said, "The problem with (10-and-5) players is that by the time they come to the player, it is down to them wanting a 'yay' and a 'nay' right away."

Griffey said last week was difficult, and not because of all the trade chatter. It was mostly because of the death of his closest friend, Frank King, a victim of cancer at 38.

"Last week was the longest of my life," he said, as he laced up pink shoe laces on his pink-trimmed Nike spikes as part of annual wearing-of-the-pink by major-league players on Mother's Day to bring attention to breast cancer. The players wore pink wrist bands and several used pink bats.

"Every time I call home, she (wife, Melissa) is still crying," Griffey said.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/05/11/ddn051208spredsnotes.html

OnBaseMachine
05-12-2008, 04:49 PM
That's great for the Reds if Seattle is desperate. Desperation could lead to the Reds landing a better return - a prospect like Michael Saunders or Carlos Triunfel would be a great haul.

jojo
05-12-2008, 05:30 PM
That's great for the Reds if Seattle is desperate. Desperation could lead to the Reds landing a better return - a prospect like Michael Saunders or Carlos Triunfel would be a great haul.

Bedard, Felix, and Putz would be an even better haul.

fearofpopvol1
05-12-2008, 06:01 PM
I do think the M's would gladly take Griffey and it's better for the Reds that they do so. It's all going to come down to a matter of particulars and what both teams see as fair value.

Unassisted
05-12-2008, 06:06 PM
http://www.kffl.com/gnews.php?id=472936


Reds | Griffey denies Seattle trade rumor

The New York Post's Dan Tomasino reports Cincinnati Reds OF Ken Griffey Jr. said he wanted to finish his career in Cincinnati and hasn't even thought about being traded to Seattle. "When I finish playing, I want to retire (in Seattle)," Griffey said over the weekend at Shea Stadium. "Does that mean I want to play for them? That's my first organization. That's who I want to retire with. When I'm done, that's where I'm gonna go. I give examples like [NFL running back] Emmitt Smith. He signed a one-day contract [with the Dallas Cowboys] and went home."

2008-05-12 09:05:51

Will M
05-12-2008, 06:06 PM
I would be happy with pretty much any return to move Jr. Bring up Bruce. His bat may be better than the 2008 version of Jr and his defense will be much better.

VR
05-12-2008, 07:22 PM
Ken hasn't homered in 67 plate appearances and once in about the last 100. He may be closer than he thinks to being done playing.

I hope warmer weather brings better results for those old bones.

Sea Ray
05-12-2008, 10:55 PM
I think a better fit for Jr is a team that might win something. I'd hate to see him go from one last place team to another and as a Reds fan I have to think a contending team would be more willing to give us a nice return.

AmarilloRed
05-12-2008, 11:02 PM
Seattle is definitely interested; let's just hope we can get an equitable trade.

M2
05-13-2008, 01:22 AM
Reasons why the Mariners might want Jr.:

1. The franchise braintrust isn't exactly comprised of the sharpest bulbs in the sea
2. The diversion factor - even if the M's don't win with Jr. they'll still sell tickets
3. Jose Vidro is the DH
4. The team is bereft of LH power beyond Raul Ibanez

Reasons why the Reds wouldn't trade Jr.:

None

Reasons why Jr. would want to stay in Cincinnati after being presented a choice between a hero's return to Seattle or the bench behind Jay Bruce in Cincinnati:

Obstinance and little else

If the Mariners show legitimate interest (and that may never happen), then I see very little standing in the way of a deal. I know this, I'll have added respect for Walt Jocketty if he can be the GM who finally moves Jr. It's a deal this franchise has needed to make for a long time.

red-in-la
05-13-2008, 02:57 AM
I for one would love to see JR hit number 600 in a Seattle uniform.....especially if it means we get to see Jay Bruce play everyday in RF. Actaully, I thought JR looked very distracted tonight.....wonder if something is up.

RedsBaron
05-13-2008, 06:35 AM
Junior is beginning to remind me of Willie Mays in his final season. It would be in the best interest of all concerned for Junior to return to Seattle.

LoganBuck
05-13-2008, 07:17 AM
What would be a realistic return for Griffey from Seattle? Some in the media have suggested Clement or even Balentin (which I suggested on a lark last week). Those seem to be awfully steep prices for the current incarnation of Ken Griffey Jr. I don't know enough about Seattle's system to know what is available.

redsmetz
05-13-2008, 08:09 AM
Junior is beginning to remind me of Willie Mays in his final season. It would be in the best interest of all concerned for Junior to return to Seattle.

I'm not sure he's quite as broken down as Mays was that last season with the Mets, but he's not far behind either.

Someone asked about a return from Seattle. Here's what some returning heroes got on the trade market:

Willie Mays to Mets for Charlie Williams (a spot starter/reliever)

Hank Aaron to Brewers for Dave May & a minor leaguer

Pete Rose back to the Reds for Tom Lawless

Now both Aaron and Mays were on their last legs and were basically headed back home to end their careers, although Aaron did hit 22 home runs over two seasons back in Milwaukee. Surprisingly, Mays playing nearly two seasons with the Mets had 16 homers and 10 doubles, but he was definitely a shadow of his former self. I think Griffey's got a little more in his tank and is a few years younger than both Aaron and Mays. The clock is ticking, as it does for everyone.

Rose, of course, also came home, but was secured to be a player/manager. Lawless stayed the remainder of that season with the Expos and then was traded to the Cardinals.

Mays probably got the best return and that wasn't stellar.

redsmetz
05-13-2008, 08:14 AM
I thought of another similar trade - Tom Seaver back to the Mets from us. We got Charlie Puleo, Lloyd McClendon, and Jason Felice (minors). McClendon was a super-sub for two seasons and landed us Rolando Roomes. Puleo would have fit in on recent Reds staffs. We finally sold him to the Braves, where he did more of the same. Again, not much of a return.

cumberlandreds
05-13-2008, 08:49 AM
Junior is beginning to remind me of Willie Mays in his final season. It would be in the best interest of all concerned for Junior to return to Seattle.

When I read this morning of account of the 9th inning, I first thought of Willie Mays in the 7th game of the 1973 World Series. Junior may not be at that point yet but he's getting close.

Cyclone792
05-13-2008, 09:08 AM
Griffey since July 1st last season:


Split G GS PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO HBP SH SF ROE GDP SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS

July 24 23 111 88 12 18 3 0 4 17 23 6 17 0 0 0 0 0 4 0 .205 .369 .375 .744
August 28 25 123 107 17 37 9 1 4 19 16 2 17 0 0 0 1 4 0 1 .346 .431 .561 .992
Sept/Oct 17 17 75 70 5 15 2 0 1 7 2 0 18 0 0 3 0 4 0 0 .214 .227 .286 .512
April/March 28 27 116 101 13 25 5 0 4 15 13 5 15 1 0 1 0 3 0 0 .248 .336 .416 .752
May 10 10 44 39 4 10 1 0 0 3 5 1 7 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 .256 .341 .282 .623

Total 107 102 469 405 51 105 20 1 13 61 59 14 74 1 0 4 1 11 4 2 .259 .352 .410 .762

Griffey had a stretch in May and June last season when he was crushing everything, but since then it's been rather ugly except for a small stretch last August. The most telling stat is 469 plate appearances with only 13 home runs. That's only one home run every 36.08 plate appearances.

Check this out:

Griffey 2005 through June 30, 2007: PA/HR ratio of 16.16
Griffey July 1, 2007 through present: PA/HR ratio of 36.08

His power has dried up.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 09:48 AM
Check this out:

* Griffey 2005 through June 30, 2007: PA/HR ratio of 16.16
* Griffey July 1, 2007 through present: PA/HR ratio of 36.08

His power has dried up.

Yep. But he does not seem to have adjusted. I think Griffey can still be a moderately successful hitter, so long as he's taking walks and using the whole field. Unfortunately, he's trying to yank stuff and catch up to high heat way more than he should be. He's still got some of those .300 hitter tools. Whether he would ever choose to leverage those skills at the expense of "the swing" and its HR allure remains to be seen -- but he's got the talent and work ethic to do it. It all depends on what he values in his performance.
__________________

jojo
05-13-2008, 09:59 AM
Yep. But he does not seem to have adjusted. I think Griffey can still be a moderately successful hitter, so long as he's taking walks and using the whole field. Unfortunately, he's trying to yank stuff and catch up to high heat way more than he should be. He's still got some of those .300 hitter tools. Whether he would ever choose to leverage those skills at the expense of "the swing" and its HR allure remains to be seen -- but he's got the talent and work ethic to do it. It all depends on what he values in his performance.
__________________

Jr hasn't been a ".300" hitter for the better part of a decade.

Team Clark
05-13-2008, 10:26 AM
Actaully, I thought JR looked very distracted tonight.....wonder if something is up.

His best friend Frank King recently passed away from cancer. Frank was a very large part of Jr's inner circle.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 10:27 AM
Jr hasn't been a ".300" hitter for the better part of a decade.

True. Not saying he can become one again -- only that he has the hand-eye/contact skills to adjust to a more gap-to-gap line drive approach, which combined with consistent patience will make him a better hitter than he is now, should he decide that's something he wants to do. Remember the adjustments Ripken made? Guys at the tail end of their career can do it, if their pride will allow it -- I'm skeptical Griffey will, but he does have the talent to make it work for a couple years, I think.

Unassisted
05-13-2008, 10:28 AM
This Seattle writer's not excited about the idea.

http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/northwest/sports/mariners/stories/NW_051308SMB_griffey_back_to_seattle_JG.f79650bf.h tml#


Times: Ken Griffey Jr.'s return could be a letdown rather than a triumph

07:16 AM PDT on Tuesday, May 13, 2008

By Larry Stone / Seattle Times

It's a wonderful concept, it really is.

Ken Griffey Jr. returning to Seattle to ride out his twilight years in a wave of adulation would provide glorious closure for the greatest Mariner of them all.

Theoretically.

The problem is that the gap between concept and reality has the potential to be as gaping as the Mariners' deficit in the AL West.

This is real life, not a fairy tale. A Griffey homecoming could end up an anti-climactic letdown just as easily as it could be a triumphant valediction for a homegrown Hall of Famer.

Mind you, I think it's going to happen. Griffey to Seattle is starting to have the distinct feel of inevitability, if all the rumblings in the baseball world are true. The fact that the Mariners had one of Bill Bavasi's top advisers, Duane Shaffer, in New York over the weekend to reportedly watch Griffey at Shea Stadium is just more fuel to a burgeoning fire.

The momentum started to build last June, when Griffey was bowled over by his wildly appreciative reception at Safeco Field, and it hasn't stopped since. Griffey told FSN at the time that he wanted to retire as a Mariner. His comments on the topic since — to The Seattle Times during spring training, and to USA Today last week — have been along the same lines.

The Reds, understandably, want to see Griffey belt his 600th homer in a Cincinnati uniform — he has been stuck on 597 since April 23 — but once it happens, the wheels could start to turn quickly.

Mariners president Chuck Armstrong, as quoted in the USA Today article, certainly did nothing to quell the rumors. The organization quickly backed off a bit, but it's hard to spin, "He was born a Mariner. And I'd like to see him finish up as a Mariner," in too many directions.

Many, if not most, fans feel exactly the same way, and understandably so. Griffey's return would result in tremendous initial excitement. He would undoubtedly put butts in the seats, not an insignificant consideration for a team that is tanking on the field and at the box office thus far in '08.

I don't want to be a killjoy, because a large part of me really likes the idea of a Griffey return. He's unquestionably a baseball immortal, one who appears to have done it cleanly and with great integrity in an era when the opposite mode often prevailed. And he remains a Seattle icon.

Let's just call it playing the devil's advocate. Here are some potential pitfalls to work through:

1. Just how much does Griffey have left to offer, at age 38? Anyone expecting vintage Junior is likely to be sorely disappointed. Injuries and age have left him a shadow of his old self, and his 2008 numbers, (.250, four homers, 18 RBI, .716 OPS) are not impressive.

That's not to say Griffey wouldn't be revitalized by a return to Seattle, at a ballpark that was once built with his stroke in mind. His old stroke, anyway.

2. Where will he play? If the M's really want to go nostalgic, they'd put Griffey in center. But that would be foolish, with Ichiro having settled in as one of the best defensive center fielders in baseball, and Griffey no longer possessing anything close to his old range after a series of debilitating leg injuries.

He could stay in right, his position in Cincinnati the past two seasons, which would necessitate moving Wladimir Balentien or Raul Ibanez to designated hitter. Or Griffey himself could go to DH, an idea that he has always resisted. Some big decisions and upheaval no matter which way you go.

3. What would it cost to get Griffey? That price is double-edged, because unlike Frank Thomas, who was available to them last month, the Mariners would have to pay in both players and salary.

Griffey is earning $12.5 million this season, the last year of the nine-year, $116.5 million contract he signed after the Reds acquired him from Seattle after the 1999 season. Some think Griffey would make any trade conditional on his new team picking up his $16.5 million option for 2009 — a deal-breaker for the Mariners, one would hope.

Griffey, don't forget, owns complete trade-veto rights, just as he did when he orchestrated his trade to Cincinnati because he wanted to be closer to his family.

Griffey still has a school-age kids, a family that has actually grown by one son since he joined the Reds. He still maintains his permanent residence in Orlando, which at last check is still as far away from Seattle as it was in 1999.

Griffey, meanwhile, has been steadfast in stating his desire to play in a World Series before his career is through. And last we checked, joining a last-place team, one with the worst record in the American League, might not be Griffey's ticket to the promised land.

Of course, if Griffey's arrival, backed by a magical revival of his legendary bat, is what spurs a Seattle sprint back into the playoffs and beyond, what a wonderfully dramatic and touching story line it would be.

It's a sweet notion, anyway.

jojo
05-13-2008, 11:06 AM
This Seattle writer's not excited about the idea.

http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/northwest/sports/mariners/stories/NW_051308SMB_griffey_back_to_seattle_JG.f79650bf.h tml#

Larry Stone is kind of like the Ms version of John Eradi.

AmarilloRed
05-13-2008, 11:15 AM
From Ken Rosenthal:


Griffey enjoys full no-trade protection, essentially giving him the right to choose his next team. However, he would not necessarily require a team to exercise his $16.5 million option for 2009 as a condition of a deal. He also is open to a greater number of teams than in the past, when his children were younger and being closer to his home in Orlando was a priority

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8132546/Win-now-focus-in-Cincy-could-mean-heavy-action-?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49


It is the option which is the primary reason a trade may not not happen. If Ken is open to dropping the option in a potential trade, I would say there is a good chance he will be traded.

fearofpopvol1
05-13-2008, 11:39 AM
Jr hasn't been a ".300" hitter for the better part of a decade.

Griffey batted .301 for the season in 2005.

jojo
05-13-2008, 11:44 AM
Griffey batted .301 for the season in 2005.

The one glaring deviation from the other 9 seasons..... Gil Meche had an ERA under 3.70 last season. Does that mean he's a TOR starter?

fearofpopvol1
05-13-2008, 11:53 AM
The one glaring deviation from the other 9 seasons..... Gil Meche had an ERA under 3.70 last season. Does that mean he's a TOR starter?

I was just correcting your mistake, that's all.

jojo
05-13-2008, 11:58 AM
I was just correcting your mistake, that's all.

It wasn't a mistake (hence the quotes around .300 in the original post).

fearofpopvol1
05-13-2008, 12:02 PM
It wasn't a mistake (hence the quotes around .300 in the original post).

.301 is higher than .300 last time I checked. If the thinking was the quotes would imply that he wasn't consistently a .300 hitter or a deviation from his mean batting average in the last 10 years, then that was unbeknownst to me.

jojo
05-13-2008, 01:00 PM
.301 is higher than .300 last time I checked. If the thinking was the quotes would imply that he wasn't consistently a .300 hitter or a deviation from his mean batting average in the last 10 years, then that was unbeknownst to me.

And now it's cleared up.

fearofpopvol1
05-13-2008, 01:28 PM
And now it's cleared up.

Yes, NOW it is. :cool:

Falls City Beer
05-13-2008, 01:31 PM
Griffey won't go to a team that's even worse than the Reds. And for that I can't blame him.

Jpup
05-13-2008, 01:35 PM
please, someone, take him from the Reds. I don't care about the return. Jay Bruce is waiting to give the Reds offense some actual production while playing above average defense. I like Jr., but his time as a Red has expired.

jojo
05-13-2008, 01:35 PM
Griffey won't go to a team that's even worse than the Reds. And for that I can't blame him.

That's a reasonable stance especially if the team is even worse AND even farther from home (and the time difference really is an issue IMHO).....

M2
05-13-2008, 02:08 PM
Griffey won't go to a team that's even worse than the Reds. And for that I can't blame him.

Hero's return to Seattle or the bench in Cincinnati? Obviously the team has to make the bench threat and mean it, but I maintain it can send the "Dude, don't go away mad, dude, just go away" message.

jojo
05-13-2008, 02:14 PM
Hero's return to Seattle or the bench in Cincinnati? Obviously the team has to make the bench threat and mean it, but I maintain it can send the "Dude, don't go away mad, dude, just go away" message.

The M's heavily marketed Jr's return for roughly 6 months leading up to the Reds trip to Seattle. That home stand saw Safeco filled with people who might not catch more than a one game there a year. It's begging the question that he'd get a hero's welcome that lasted more than a week. He's not naive...I'm sure he also remembers the anti-Jr crowd too.

Falls City Beer
05-13-2008, 02:20 PM
Hero's return to Seattle or the bench in Cincinnati? Obviously the team has to make the bench threat and mean it, but I maintain it can send the "Dude, don't go away mad, dude, just go away" message.

The Reds don't play the "hey, it's just business" brand of roster management that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox play.

The Reds look after egos. Look how long it took them to move him from CF.

Unassisted
05-13-2008, 02:23 PM
Another view from a Seattle columnist.

http://www.examiner.com/x-216-Seattle-Sports-Examiner~y2008m5d13-The-rumor-has-legs-Does-Griffey


The rumor has legs. Does Griffey?
by Bob Sherwin
POSTED May 13, 9:35 AM

It has been three weeks, since April 21, when I first proposed that the Mariners acquire Ken Griffey Jr. Much has happened this then.

The Reds fired their general manager and promoted former Cardinals GM Walt Jocketty. He appears ready to move bodies, especially those attached to huge salaries. Also, Griffey said in a national publication that he wouldn't mind a trade to Seattle so he could 'come home.'

The Mariners also have made some changes. Right fielder Brad Wilkerson was released on April 30 and rookie Wladimir Balentien was promoted to fill his spot. Balentien has hit four home runs since his arrival. I like that kid.

But there's still room for Griffey. He could be rolled between DH and right field. Balentien can switch between right and left and Raul Ibenez can go between left and DH.

It's Jose Vidro who would be vulnerable, which isn't a bad thing. He has a $9 million option for next season if he reaches around 400 at-bats. That's not going to happen and everyone knows it.

It comes down to the question I raised last month: Is Griffey worth the effort?

His salary certainly is untenable. He has a $16.5 million option for next season. The Mariners would be foolish to accept that. Something needs to be worked out there, such as releasing him and settling on a lower price for next season.

It's up to Mariners scout Duane Shaffer, who is currently following him, and the baseball people to determine if he has anything left. I do know that two years ago when there were other trade rumors a Mariners scout was sent to watch him and he determined that his bat had slowed. That was two years ago.

I know that Griffey would help enormously in the clubhouse. He's vocal but not a vocal leader. He leads by example and he's desperate to reach the post-season. He has been there just twice, the last time in 1997 with the Mariners.

This clubhouse has no leaders. None. It's devoid or anyone as desperate as Griffey to win. But there are a lot of guys desperate for stats. Griffey can change that attitude just by his presence.

My concern is what happens after the initial rush. What will the fans do when he strikes out for the first time with the bases loaded? What will he do? Griffey is ultra sensitive. For his last two years here he was quite sullen because he felt unappreciated. When he goes into a slump, will he also stew? Will he come out of it?

This team's going no where without him. At least we can have a little fun with him.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 02:27 PM
the "hey, it's just business" brand of roster management that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox play.

The Yankees? Giambi at 1st? The defensively-challenged Jeter entrenched at SS? Damon?

M2
05-13-2008, 02:31 PM
The M's heavily marketed Jr's return for roughly 6 months leading up to the Reds trip to Seattle. That home stand saw Safeco filled with people who might not catch more than a one game there a year. It's begging the question that he'd get a hero's welcome that lasted more than a week. He's not naive...I'm sure he also remembers the anti-Jr crowd too.

It's still (theoretically) a team that wants you with fans who (in large numbers) hold you dear. I agree with you. Jr. isn't naive. He'll be aware that the honeymoon will be short if he doesn't play well. That said, he should be cagey enough to know when it's time to save himself from an embarrassing demotion to the bench.

Does the man have pride? Does he think he still offers something on a baseball field? Those are the questions the Reds can pose him if they work a deal and make it clear his career as a starting player in Cincinnati is over.

Falls City Beer
05-13-2008, 02:39 PM
The Yankees? Giambi at 1st? The defensively-challenged Jeter entrenched at SS? Damon?

ARod to 3rd? And how about all those former starters relegated to the bench when acquired by the Yankees?

Sea Ray
05-13-2008, 02:46 PM
If the M's don't pickup his contract and they don't give us a bonafide prospect do you trade him?

M2
05-13-2008, 02:48 PM
The Reds don't play the "hey, it's just business" brand of roster management that teams like the Yankees and Red Sox play.

The Reds look after egos. Look how long it took them to move him from CF.

That's been the club's M.O. Yet Jocketty's a more cold-blooded animal than we're used to in the GM job and Castellini seemingly only cares about W-L record. The guy who'd probably need to be persuaded to bench the veteran and play the rookie is Baker.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 02:49 PM
ARod to 3rd?

Exactly. Because they were too scared to upset Jeter by asking him to move.


And how about all those former starters relegated to the bench when acquired by the Yankees?

Where else are they going to go? Generally speaking, they've had either all-star caliber talent or a giant contract at every spot.

Falls City Beer
05-13-2008, 02:50 PM
If the M's don't pickup his contract and they don't give us a bonafide prospect do you trade him?

Yes, I would.

But the Reds won't pay the M's the remainder of Junior's contract. They'd need to save some face; I think a compromise could be reached--maybe the Reds kicking in 3-4 million.

Falls City Beer
05-13-2008, 02:53 PM
That's been the club's M.O. Yet Jocketty's a more cold-blooded animal than we're used to in the GM job and Castellini seemingly only cares about W-L record. The guy who'd probably need to be persuaded to bench the veteran and play the rookie is Baker.

I think Dusty should let his son face off against Junior in a flyball-shagging contest; I think he'd be surprised by the results.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 02:54 PM
That's been the club's M.O. Yet Jocketty's a more cold-blooded animal than we're used to in the GM job and Castellini seemingly only cares about W-L record. The guy who'd probably need to be persuaded to bench the veteran and play the rookie is Baker.

Guys, this will not happen. It just doesn't happen to players like Griffey, and it's not because it's Cincinnati. Nor do I think it would be the best way to bring Bruce to the bigs. Why tether him to what would be the humiliating demotion of one of the game's all-time greats? It's way too dark a cloud to place him under....... If they feel compelled to bring him up before Griffey or Dunn is moved, make the OF a 4-man rotation, moving Bruce around. You want as little added pressure on the kid as possible, given the already sky-high expectations.

M2
05-13-2008, 02:55 PM
Exactly. Because they were too scared to upset Jeter by asking him to move.

From a baseball perspective, A-Rod to 3B and keeping Jeter at SS was absolutely the right move to make. Say what you will about Jeter's defense, but A-Rod's fielding skills have gone into startling retreat. My expectation is A-Rod's headed to 1B before too long.

Falls City Beer
05-13-2008, 02:58 PM
Guys, this will not happen. It just doesn't happen to players like Griffey, and it's not because it's Cincinnati. Nor do I think it would be the best way to bring Bruce to the bigs. Why tether him to what would be the humiliating demotion of one of the game's all-time greats? It's way too dark a cloud to place him under....... If they feel compelled to bring him up before Griffey or Dunn is moved, make the OF a 4-man rotation, moving Bruce around. You want as little added pressure on the kid as possible, given the already sky-high expectations.

Bruce needs to hit. Part time's not going to cut it. The only two solutions are to either keep him at AAA or promote him and give him CF (leaving the Reds with the worst defensive outfield in modern baseball history and a treacherous task for Bruce's legs).

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 03:02 PM
From a baseball perspective, A-Rod to 3B and keeping Jeter at SS was absolutely the right move to make. Say what you will about Jeter's defense, but A-Rod's fielding skills have gone into startling retreat. My expectation is A-Rod's headed to 1B before too long.

At the time, metrics had ARod as the far superior defender. His struggles at 3rd were to be expected, given the position change. Who knows if Jeter would have had similar problems moving somewhere, but there was no doubt at the time that the better SS was not at SS.

Falls City Beer
05-13-2008, 03:06 PM
At the time, metrics had ARod as the far superior defender. His struggles at 3rd were to be expected, given the position change. Who knows if Jeter would have had similar problems moving somewhere, but there was no doubt at the time that the better SS was not at SS.

Nevertheless, the original point is that the Reds still act like Junior's the Dalai Lama when he's been replacement-level (when you factor in his defense) for several years. Jeter is a top-ten pure line drive hitter in MLB, maybe in MLB history when all is said and done. Jeter had the clout to put his foot down. Junior's got to turn the clock back to 2000 to be relevant.

jojo
05-13-2008, 03:06 PM
At the time, metrics had ARod as the far superior defender. His struggles at 3rd were to be expected, given the position change. Who knows if Jeter would have had similar problems moving somewhere, but there was no doubt at the time that the better SS was not at SS.

Arod's declining defense was eclipsed by his reputation at the time but there were many who were pointing it out in vain (nobody wanted to hear it). UZR was calling Arod a neutral defender at shortstop as early as the 2003 season. Really, it's hard to argue against the way the Yanks handled it both from a political and skills perspective.

M2
05-13-2008, 03:11 PM
Guys, this will not happen. It just doesn't happen to players like Griffey, and it's not because it's Cincinnati. Nor do I think it would be the best way to bring Bruce to the bigs. Why tether him to what would be the humiliating demotion of one of the game's all-time greats? It's way too dark a cloud to place him under....... If they feel compelled to bring him up before Griffey or Dunn is moved, make the OF a 4-man rotation, moving Bruce around. You want as little added pressure on the kid as possible, given the already sky-high expectations.

When older players hang around past the point where they can hold down a regular gig, it absolutely happens to them. The DH rule has created a haven for some guys, but baseball is a results-oriented business. Neither the Reds as a team nor Jr. as a player is producing the desired results and, in Jr.'s case, there's no tomorrow to wish upon. He either produces now or never.

And, to be clear, I'm talking about giving him a way out of a humiliating, if totally deserved, demotion. Work a deal and lay out his options. Go where you're wanted or ride the pine in Cincinnati. At that point the decision is his. Finding a team that wants him is more courtesy than the Reds owe him (and, let's be honest, that team might not exist).

My view is the Reds need to work quickly on this. Jr.'s been an 800-lb. gorilla for too long and, ideally, he's elsewhere by Memorial Day. I'm not saying he can't help another club, but he isn't helping the Reds. This needs to be over and, if the Reds can make a deal, the club needs to make it clear that it's over even if he stays.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 03:11 PM
Arod's declining defense was eclipsed by his reputation at the time but there were many who were pointing it out in vain (nobody wanted to hear it). Really, it's hard to argue against the way the Yanks handled it both from a political and skills perspective.

Politically, who knows? The Yanks haven't won anything since ARod arrived. And I maintain that Arod was the better SS then... will have to check the numbers....

M2
05-13-2008, 03:17 PM
Arod's declining defense was eclipsed by his reputation at the time but there were many who were pointing it out in vain (nobody wanted to hear it). Really, it's hard to argue against the way the Yanks handled it both from a political and skills perspective.

Exactly. A-Rod was rapidly coming apart in the field, hardly surprising for a guy of his size. He's the prototypical SS who absolutely had to move somewhere else once he turned 30.

jojo
05-13-2008, 03:18 PM
Politically, who knows? The Yanks haven't won anything since ARod arrived. And I maintain that Arod was the better SS then... will have to check the numbers....

He probably was a better shortstop in '04 but he wasn't going to be one for very much longer. Meanwhile, Jeter was a face of the franchise etc....

Moving AROD to third was a pretty easy decision IMHO.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 03:18 PM
And, to be clear, I'm talking about giving him a way out of a humiliating, if totally deserved, demotion. Work a deal and lay out his options. Go where you're wanted or ride the pine in Cincinnati. At that point the decision is his. Finding a team that wants him is more courtesy than the Reds owe him (and, let's be honest, that team might not exist).

I agree with this approach for the most part, though I wouldn't threaten him with a pure reserve role. As I said, I'd tell him that Bruce was going to be recalled because he'd hit his way out of AAA, and he was going to start most nights, some of those nights in RF. It's delicate because you don't want to piss him off so badly that he calls your bluff -- in which case you'd have to put Bruce out there as the guy who pipped Griffey (who happens to be Bruce's idol). Griffey, as sensitive as he is, would not take kindly to his new role, and who knows how he'd treat Bruce. Not a great situation for the kid. Think wand, not cudgel.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 03:20 PM
Moving AROD to third was a pretty easy decision IMHO.

I agree. But it was a political decision, not a baseball one.

M2
05-13-2008, 03:28 PM
I agree with this approach for the most part, though I wouldn't threaten him with a pure reserve role. As I said, I'd tell him that Bruce was going to be recalled because he'd hit his way out of AAA, and he was going to start most nights, some of those nights in RF. It's delicate because you don't want to piss him off so badly that he calls your bluff -- in which case you'd have to put Bruce out there as the guy who pipped Griffey (who happens to be Bruce's idol). Griffey, as sensitive as he is, would not take kindly to his new role, and who knows how he'd treat Bruce. Not a great situation for the kid. Think wand, not cudgel.

I don't look at it as a threat so much as a statement of reality. The Reds have a kid who needs to come up and play and Jr.'s the guy who'll be on the bench when that happens.

And it can't be a bluff. Here's the other team that wants you and there's no starting gig for you in Cincinnati. I don't look at it as any sort of malice, just that this player needs to understand his time as a central player on this team is finished. The owner, GM and manager all need to communicate that they hope he approves the trade because they will be demoting him to the bench no matter how much they'd rather not do it from a personal standpoint.

I agree that having Jr. hang around to play a doppelganger of his former self is far from the ideal way you'd want to bring Bruce into the majors. That said, if the guy won't listen to reason, I don't see where the Reds will have a choice. And if Jr. starts griping and trying to mess with Bruce then the team has to go nuclear and cut him. Jr. certainly can make this ugly if he wants to (though I suspect all it would accomplish is tarnishing his reputation), but the Reds can't allow that possibility to prevent them from doing what needs to be done.

backbencher
05-13-2008, 03:39 PM
I don't look at it as a threat so much as a statement of reality.

M2 isn't the relevant audience.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 03:46 PM
That said, if the guy won't listen to reason, I don't see where the Reds will have a choice. And if Jr. starts griping and trying to mess with Bruce then the team has to go nuclear and cut him. Jr. certainly can make this ugly if he wants to (though I suspect all it would accomplish is tarnishing his reputation), but the Reds can't allow that possibility to prevent them from doing what needs to be done.

They do have a choice, and it's to move Bruce around the OF, as he's been doing in Louisville. It doesn't have to be Bruce over Griffey. 2009 will come soon enough.

M2
05-13-2008, 04:02 PM
They do have a choice, and it's to move Bruce around the OF, as he's been doing in Louisville. It doesn't have to be Bruce over Griffey. 2009 will come soon enough.

It doesn't have to be, but it should be. Sooner or later, if the Reds want to stop being a doormat, the franchise needs to stop taking half measures. Jr.'s defense is gone and he's been struggling at the plate since the start of last July. The club has a kid who could step in and be a forklift upgrade.

Bouncing the kid around in the name of what is not working (Jr. in RF) is exactly the sort of wishy-washy management that's plunged the Reds into a seven-year slide. Why must some arcane rotation be deployed when you could just choose a starting OF and play it?

Anyway, my take is the club would be well served to minimize the nonsense and move toward a team that might work on the field (as opposed to the current one that doesn't).

Chip R
05-13-2008, 04:08 PM
Dusty would run Jr. out there in a wheelchair before he benched him.

RedsBaron
05-13-2008, 04:10 PM
I agree with M2 and FCB. I wish things had worked out better during Junior's time as a Red, but they didn't and probably never will. The Reds and Junior need to part ways. Each will be better off if they do.
By the way, do you realize that in Junior's last four seasons in Seattle, 1996-99, he hit 209 HRs? In more than 8 seasons with the Reds, he's hit 199 HRs.

lollipopcurve
05-13-2008, 04:13 PM
Bouncing the kid around in the name of what is not working (Jr. in RF) is exactly the sort of wishy-washy management that's plunged the Reds into a seven-year slide. Why must some arcane rotation be deployed when you could just choose a starting OF and play it?

Nothing in the OF is really working. I don't think it's wishy-washy management, I think it's managing your resources (human beings) in such a way as to not cause them undue stress, allowing them to concentrate on their jobs. You simply do not plunge Bruce into that kind of situation.

All hypothetical. Ideally, they work something out on Griffey or Dunn before too long, without having to wedge Bruce into an uncomfortable spot. In my view, it doesn't really matter whether it's LF or RF that opens first, because both guys are short-timers, I think, and you might as well let them play for awhile yet to see if they can up their current value.

M2
05-13-2008, 04:21 PM
Nothing in the OF is really working. I don't think it's wishy-washy management, I think it's managing your resources (human beings) in such a way as to not cause them undue stress, allowing them to concentrate on their jobs. You simply do not plunge Bruce into that kind of situation.

Bruce is a baseball player who wants to play in the majors. If Jr. refused to get out of his way by nixing a trade, then you've got a Jr. problem, not a Jay Bruce problem.


All hypothetical. Ideally, they work something out on Griffey or Dunn before too long, without having to wedge Bruce into an uncomfortable spot. In my view, it doesn't really matter whether it's LF or RF that opens first, because both guys are short-timers, I think, and you might as well let them play for awhile yet to see if they can up their current value.

I'm fine with it being LF too, though I think you get a more immediate bump with it being Bruce in RF with Dunn in LF and somebody who can catch the ball in CF. The way Baker deploys Dunn, he's certainly got no future with the Reds, but he isn't the squeaky wheel most in need of a fix from a baseball standpoint.

gm
05-13-2008, 05:16 PM
I still don't see Junior in Seattle in 2009. Maybe for a few months in 2008, but then he'll pine for his family and want to sign with a team that trains in the Orlando area in 2009, unless he decides to retire. I wouldn't think he's going to make his "next" team pick up the $16.5 mil option, but you never know when it comes to the bottom line...I would think Junior's motivations are 1) play on a contender and 2) not have to train in Arizona next spring...if this is correct, that would make the Seattle return a sentimental pipe dream

mth123
05-13-2008, 08:05 PM
What would be a realistic return for Griffey from Seattle? Some in the media have suggested Clement or even Balentin (which I suggested on a lark last week). Those seem to be awfully steep prices for the current incarnation of Ken Griffey Jr. I don't know enough about Seattle's system to know what is available.

Reds pick-up half of Griffey's remaining money and the buy-out and get Ryan Feierabend. No Clement, Balentien, Morrow or Triunfel IMO. No way.

GAC
05-13-2008, 08:35 PM
If Seattle is interested because of some lingering love affair with the guy, and a deal can be worked out that Jr agrees with, then go for it.

If not, give him his 4 mil buyout, thank him, and move on.

It's time this FO started thinking about what is needed to win and improve this team. And that means Jr will not be with this team in '09.

mth123
05-13-2008, 08:39 PM
If Seattle is interested because of some lingering love affair with the guy, and a deal can be worked out that Jr agrees with, then go for it.

If not, give him his 4 mil buyout, thank him, and move on.

It's time this FO started thinking about what is needed to win and improve this team. And that means Jr will not be with this team in '09.

The last line should read

It's time this FO started thinking about what is needed to win and improve this team. And that means Jr will not be with this team next week.

Blitz Dorsey
05-13-2008, 10:09 PM
Mariners get Griffey and we get a couple salmon fillets. I think that's a good deal for both sides. Seriously, if the Mariners would be willing to pay his contract the rest of this year, and his $4 million buyout next year, it's a no brainer. I would literally give him away. But the problem is no one is going to want Griffey at that price.

Plus, Griffey has no interest in being in the pressure of a playoff race. He is much more comfortable playing meaningless games in late summer and chasing stats. I never got the feeling (with the exception of 1995) that winning was all that important to Griffey. I mean, of course he wants to win, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of player who has this burning desire to win. Wouldn't surprise me if he vetoed just about any trade. I think he would go to Seattle, but I don't think they want him. My goodness I hope I'm wrong. Would be great to not have to pay Griffey $4 million next year just for the right of releasing him. No one will even consider picking up his $14 million option or whatever it is. He will definitely be bought out and will then sign a one-year FA deal with someone in 2009. And if he's smart he'll go AL so he can DH some or most of the time.

jojo
05-13-2008, 10:10 PM
Mariners get Griffey and we get a couple salmon fillets.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM....fresh salmon.....it's like candy.

Will M
05-13-2008, 11:10 PM
i find it odd that the Ms want Jr. Hatteberg not Jr is what the Ms need. he would play 1B vs RHP and then Sexton would only play vs LHP. Plus he is a lot cheaper than Jr.

IslandRed
05-13-2008, 11:42 PM
i find it odd that the Ms want Jr. Hatteberg not Jr is what the Ms need. he would play 1B vs RHP and then Sexton would only play vs LHP. Plus he is a lot cheaper than Jr.

Hatteberg won't sell any extra tickets or bump the TV ratings, and this is looking like a season where "fighting for the AL West title" isn't going to be the feature attraction in Seattle, either.

Whether Junior would sell enough tickets this year in Seattle to justify trading for him is a question for their marketers and accountants to answer.

Sea Ray
05-14-2008, 09:36 AM
Reds pick-up half of Griffey's remaining money


If that's the case I pass

Will M
05-14-2008, 11:17 AM
If that's the case I pass

not me. if we only have to pay 1/2 of Jr's 2008 salary and 1/2 the buyout then i'd make any deal immediately. Jr and cash for a bag of baseballs.

jojo
05-14-2008, 01:12 PM
If that's the case I pass

Getting anyone to pick up half his salary would be a gift.

RedsBaron
05-14-2008, 01:14 PM
Getting anyone to pick up half his salary would be a gift.

Agreed.

M2
05-14-2008, 01:19 PM
Getting anyone to pick up half his salary would be a gift.

Yep.

There's two types of deals the Reds can make with Jr.

1) Don't get much back and have the other team pick up some of his cost.
2) Pick up the rest of his 2008 contract and get something slightly better in return.

jojo
05-14-2008, 01:30 PM
Yep.

There's two types of deals the Reds can make with Jr.

1) Don't get much back and have the other team pick up some of his cost.
2) Pick up the rest of his 2008 contract and get something slightly better in return.

You highlight something often overlooked. Jr's contract situation provides a way to "buy" a potentially useful prospect.

OnBaseMachine
05-14-2008, 06:12 PM
WORD OUT OF Seattle is that the Mariners have no concern over the $8 million they’d have to pay Ken Griffey Jr. the rest of this season if the acquired him now and the $16 million option for next year with a $4 million buyout.

When you want something - really, really want something - money is not much of a deterrent, is it?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2008/05/14/some_bits_and_pieces.html

jojo
05-14-2008, 06:17 PM
WORD OUT OF Seattle is that the Mariners have no concern over the $8 million they’d have to pay Ken Griffey Jr. the rest of this season if the acquired him now and the $16 million option for next year with a $4 million buyout.

When you want something - really, really want something - money is not much of a deterrent, is it?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/entries/2008/05/14/some_bits_and_pieces.html

I'm not sure what McCoy is saying there....the M's have no concern over his salary this year or they have no concern over a requirement that they pick up his option (which clearly is incorrect).

Matt700wlw
05-14-2008, 06:24 PM
The real question....as much as it seems Griffey would like to go back to Seattle...would he accept a trade to a last place ball club? He wants a ring

GAC
05-14-2008, 09:15 PM
It's time this FO started thinking about what is needed to win and improve this team. And that means Jr will not be with this team next week.

No team is going to cut a future HOFer of the calibre of a Jr, who is 3 away from the 600 Hr milestone.

And does he deserve that? I don't think so. The guy has given a lot to this game (and the fans). You'd really upset a lot of fans out there treating him that way. No need to stir things up and cause such bitter, hard feelings. We have to pay the guy regardless.

If they can't trade Jr by the deadline, then they can still bring up Bruce, sit down with Jr and tell him he is going to split time with Jay, and they want him to mentor him, help him get acclimated. Jr has to realize (and I think he does) that the "writing is on the wall".

If he fights that, causes trouble, then yeah, you then release him. But that then makes him look bad (selfish), and not the organization.

But you have to be somewhat diplomatic in situations like this.

mth123
05-15-2008, 04:33 AM
No team is going to cut a future HOFer of the calibre of a Jr, who is 3 away from the 600 Hr milestone.

And does he deserve that? I don't think so. The guy has given a lot to this game (and the fans). You'd really upset a lot of fans out there treating him that way. No need to stir things up and cause such bitter, hard feelings. We have to pay the guy regardless.

If they can't trade Jr by the deadline, then they can still bring up Bruce, sit down with Jr and tell him he is going to split time with Jay, and they want him to mentor him, help him get acclimated. Jr has to realize (and I think he does) that the "writing is on the wall".

If he fights that, causes trouble, then yeah, you then release him. But that then makes him look bad (selfish), and not the organization.

But you have to be somewhat diplomatic in situations like this.

I didn't say cut him. I just think keeping him any longer than necessary is killing this team and any hope for this team is largely dependent on Griffey getting out of RF. I think he puts the pitching staff at huge risk of overwork and injury and I'm concerned that some attempt to keep up this charade will have effects that last long into Griffey's retirement. I care about that more than him hitting his 600th HR. Griffey should follow the examples set by Mike Schmidt and Ryne Sandberg. They went into their final seasons with the intention of playing, but when it became obvious they were through, they held the tearful press conference and stepped aside. I wonder if Griffey will after number 600 is struck. If not, the time is here for him to assume that mentor role. I think he can help this team as a LHPH who provides an actual power threat off the bench. If he wants to do that, then great. But the time is now and waiting for number 600 or for the deadline will be an agonizing ordeal that will spoil what should be a victory lap for Griffey.

OTOH, If the Reds have a willing taker that Griffey would accept going to as has been suggested, then the Reds should facilitate the deal. Let the monster prospect take over. And, more than anything else, turn the page. Griffey deserves the chance to go out where he had his glory and to do so in a manner that allows him to play without embarrassing himself on a nightly basis (that means DH). A tour around the AL as a DH for the team where he really does have an historic past is much more fitting than him looking like a joke in the OF in Cincinnati. He can hit some HRs, pass Sosa on the list and go out in a celebration of his career without the nightly downer that watching him play RF has become.